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May 4, 2017 - Project Camelot
01:06:16
JOHN LEAR REVISITED - PART ONE OF THREE
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Time Text
Thank you.
Thank you.
And they were the ones that Perfected.
And when I say perfected, I believe in 1956 is when we had our own flying saucers.
I knew that if anybody knew the truth of whether MJ-12 was real or not, it would have been Jimmy Doolittle.
And I'd like to know if this MJ-12 is real or not.
And he said...
Yes, it is, but I can't talk, say anything about it.
That was what got me going on UFOs, because up to that point, I didn't believe in UFOs.
If I miss contacting you, two contacts in a row, you can do whatever you want with these boxes.
The information in it was seven or eight minutes of videotape taken in a corridor at Dulce, 25 black and white photos, and 100 pages of information.
It was called the Dulce Wars.
It wasn't a war.
What happened was, and I knew all this before any of this information came out, these 44 scientists were being given this briefing by a Gray at Dulce in an auditorium, small auditorium.
Do not go anywhere near a Gray with any kind of weapon or ammunition because you will be killed immediately.
Hi everyone, I'm Carrie Cassidy from Project Hamlet and it's been a lot of years but we are back in John Lear's study and what an amazing place it is and it's a lot of fun to be back with John.
John you're looking great and I just want to say as always this place is a treasure trove of stuff.
With old stories and you're still at it.
You're still researching.
You've got more to share and we're already launched into this conversation and we're very interested in what you have to say and it's a joy to be here.
And I want to say John Lear is a famous pilot and he is very well known.
And he has been interviewed by Project Camelot at least twice in person.
And I think once or twice on my radio show as well.
And he is highly popular on our site, etc.
He comes from...
His father actually invented Learjet.
And...
And he broke a lot of records as a pilot, from what I understand.
And he's something of a renegade.
He doesn't necessarily play by the rules.
And in our view, that's a good thing.
And I also want to say, I mean, we want to go all over the place with this interview.
We're really going to go back into the past and get some of the stuff we might have missed, some tidbits here and there.
And then we want to go into more of the future and what's currently going on.
So that's kind of how it's going to go.
What I'd like to do right now, we've been having a lot of fun talking about Lake Tahoe and the What I'd like to do here, though, is talk a little bit about your father, because wasn't he a member of MJ-12?
Isn't that true?
No.
In 1952, his company, Lear Incorporated, Was designated the primary contractor for anti-grav propulsion.
And they were the ones that perfected anti-grav.
And when I say perfected, I believe in 1956 is when we had our own flying saucers.
And there's a couple of books out by John Irwin, extremely interesting.
He was one of the 16, and if you know the story of Irwin, at each mission that he was sent on, he saw Flying Saucers.
Now, this was in 1956.
All right.
And just for the record here, we have interviewed John Irwin.
Oh, I have.
As well.
More than once.
And you know that I wrote the foreword for his books.
Did you?
Excellent.
Yeah.
I guess I didn't remember that, but that's great to know.
So you guys have been in touch, in other words.
Yeah, absolutely.
Lovely.
Okay.
Good to hear.
And my dad would have been part of that except he made a trip to Bogota, Colombia in 1953 and talked about flying saucers.
The press were interested in flying saucers and my dad having knowledge being selected by the government for the The development of Antigrav, he was very well versed in it.
He shouldn't have been talking about it.
He signed many, many security clearances and the interview that he gave in Bogota was the last straw and he was kicked out of Wherever he was.
Now, he wasn't a member of MJ-12, but he knew all the members on a very close basis.
Jimmy Doolittle was not a member of MJ-12, but he was about as knowledgeable in the affairs of MJ-12 as you could be without actually having been a member.
And Jimmy Doolittle lived down the street We lived on 222 14th Street in Santa Monica and Jimmy Doolittle lived on 3rd Street with his wife, Jo.
And they were always over at our house for one thing and another.
And very good friends.
And the letter on the wall there from Jimmy Doolittle is framed.
The center picture is him taking off from the The carrier to bomb Tokyo.
And I had an airplane accident on June 24, 1961.
And caused myself a lot of damage, which is now giving me all kinds of problems 50 years later.
But Jimmy Duda wrote that letter of encouragement, and I had it framed next to the picture of him taking off the carrier to bomb Tokyo.
Okay.
Now, you also said there was, if I remember correctly, maybe my memory isn't so good here, but there was one guy who was, I thought, a member of MJ-12.
He used to visit you and your wife, but he was really a fan of your wife.
Of my mom?
Was it your mother?
Yeah.
Okay, your mother.
And that was...
Vandenberg, he had a crush on my mother.
My mother talked about that all the time and said that he had had a crush on him.
Was he MJ-12?
Yes.
Vandenberg.
He was MJ-12 and mom always kept in touch with Jimmy Doolittle.
His wife died Many years ago, and he moved to Carmel near Monterey Bay, and they used to stay in touch.
Now, when Bill Moore came forth with the Eisenhower briefing and introduced everybody to MJ-12, everybody wanted to know, what is this?
I never heard of this.
Is it true?
I knew that if anybody knew The truth of whether MJ-12 was real or not, it would have been Jimmy Doolittle.
So, I talked to my mom and it took me a good six months to convince her to, in one of her conversations with Jimmy Doolittle, to say something to the effect, Jimmy, John's gotten involved in this thing about UFOs and I'd like to know if This MJ-12 is real or not.
And he said, yes, boy, it is, but I can't talk, say anything about it.
That was what Got me going on UFOs because up to that point, I didn't believe in the UFOs.
As a matter of fact, there's a letter that goes around the internet that I wrote to John Andrews of Tester's Corporation and told him, you know, to the best of my knowledge, it was all BS and not to waste his time on it.
But anyway, with Jimmy Doodle saying that to my mom, I... At the very same time, there was a reunion in Las Vegas of the pilots in Southeast Asia that worked in covert missions,
CIA. I worked for CASI, Continental Air Services, Inc., who did the same stuff as Air America.
We supplied the troops in Laos under General Vang Pau.
His picture is in the hallway there with me standing next to him at one of the reunions.
But anyway, in one of these reunions, I ran into an old friend, his name was Greg Wilson, and he flew the A-10.
During the conversation, I said, well, you know, what have you been doing since, since Laos?
He said, well, I stayed in the Air Force.
He said, I went to different places.
I was at Bentwaters.
I said, Bentwaters?
That's where the flying saucer supposedly landed in the Christmas of 1980.
And he said, oh, not supposedly, John.
It did.
I didn't see it because I was confined to quarters.
But I know the guys who did, and they say, yes, it all happened just as stated.
And I met with Warren.
What was Warren's name?
Oh, Larry Warren, you mean?
Larry Warren.
Yeah.
And I brought him out to Las Vegas to interview him, and also we were on the Art Bell show together.
Really?
And...
He stayed at my house and we spent a lot of time talking about the Bentwaters incident and stayed in touch with Greg Wilson, who still flies the A-10.
He was instrumental in Gulf War I and II and tells some interesting stories where he was Circling a place that he had found where there was Scud missiles ready to launch and wanted permission to attack it.
And whoever he was talking to said, no, don't do anything to those Scud missiles.
What that was about, I don't know, but it certainly is interesting.
I know that between Gulf War I and Gulf War II, that we had carriers in the Persian Gulf that did nothing but send cruise missiles to bomb Iraq.
There's cities, there's schools, everything.
And the mission was, the object was, to create terrorists that we could then attack, saying, we found more terrorists and we're going to attack them, when in fact it was us who created the terrorists.
I kept in touch with Larry Warren and Greg Wilson.
And from that meeting in 1983 or 1985, the things happened to me that was just incredible from the standpoint that These things kept happening to me, giving me more and more information.
As soon as I'd finished one interesting lead, another one would pop up.
After the Larry Warren thing and the Jimmy Doolittle thing, I was invited to Crestone, Colorado.
It was a meeting of Eight of the top ufologists at that time in the United States and we met there and talked about what everyone knew.
There was a guy there named Tom Adams.
Have you ever interviewed him?
Tom Adams?
No.
Tom lived in Texas and very involved in the UFO thing, and he handed me a letter from a person in Vegas,
Henderson, Nevada, who, now I can tell her name, but I've kept it secret for, let's see, 88, 98, 30 years, and she, at her request, and her name is, um, Oh, I know her.
She's involved with the Dulce story, isn't she?
Right.
So, Tom gave me a letter from Cherry.
And it said that, the letter said that she had a friend who was a guard at Dulcy and had gotten out of Dulcy with some videotape, some black and white photos, and a hundred pages of technical information.
And Tom gave me these to John Researchers, would you mind contacting this lady?
So, when I got back to Vegas, I called Cherry, and we set up several meetings, and she gave me the pen,
pencil drawings that she had made From the black and white photos that the guard had given her, those black and white, or those pen drawings were right in that file cabinet.
I still have them.
And from those, I traced in black felt tips so that you could See exactly.
The pen drawings were not that clear.
I made them much more clear and I typed some of the information and I was able to prove that I was the one that typed it because The typewriter face was an IBM executive typewriter that had proportional spacing,
five spaces for each letter, and it was the only one of that type currently, or was in use, and I was able to prove that that was the typewriter that that information was.
Okay, what was the information then?
The information was about Dulce and the vats and everything.
Wasn't that also what Branton or Branson used?
You know Branton, he's the one who...
Now, you knew him, right?
Didn't you hang out with him?
No.
Branton?
But I knew him, and I have a file over there, a three-inch file of all of his, the Branton files.
Okay, yeah.
But did you know, I think, wasn't the security guard's name, was it Tom Campbell?
No.
No?
No.
I have his name.
It's a fascinating story.
And so you talked to Cherry, and she knew the security guard.
There was a box that was hidden on top of a mountain.
Six boxes.
Six boxes.
That the guard had made.
They were sealed very carefully, waterproof, everything-proof.
And he gave one box to six friends, and he said...
If I miss contacting you, two contacts in a row, you can do whatever you want with these boxes.
The information in it was seven or eight minutes of videotape taken in a corridor at Dulcie, 25 black and white photos, And a hundred pages of information.
And so Cherry told me about this and she said that she had hidden her box and she would take me there and it was at, between here and Keeman, Dolan Springs.
It had hidden Dolan Springs on the side of the mountain.
I don't think it was at the top on the side.
Anyway, Cherry and I drove down there and she showed me, pointed to the mountain, or the side of the mountain, where it was.
And the contacts were supposed to be every four months, and if he missed two, that means eight months, that they could do whatever they wanted with the contacts.
So anyway, it was 1996 until he missed two contacts, and he told me, or the guard told Cherry that they had Bounty hunters.
And they were very professional in what they did.
They were ex-bikers and stuff like that.
And he was sure that they would get him.
I think he went down to Costa Rica, and I don't know the facts about how they got him or if they got him.
But anyway, he missed two contacts.
Sherry went with several friends of mine.
I believe one was Bill Wurstline.
Or not Bill Wurstline.
Bill...
Hamilton?
Hamilton.
No, Hamilton.
Seriously.
And, um...
I didn't know Hamilton got involved with this.
I think he was.
And, um...
Before this, when I first met Cherry, she let me see these pencil drawings.
And it was from those drawings I made the black and white felt-tip copies, and I typed some of the information on this typewriter.
And I sent those out to my friends, and that's what became known as the infamous Dulce papers.
And I didn't put my name on the drawings.
I guess I should have, but I didn't.
But they were my drawings, and also the typewritten information was typed on my IBM executive typewriter.
Right.
Now, did you know, because I've been interviewing Mark Richards, who is part of the Secret Space Program, a captain, his wife Joanne Richards is also someone on the circuit talking about his story, but he claims that his father was an Air Force pilot, Called the Dutchman.
And that he and his father flew into Dulcy.
They sent on a mission to actually rescue the humans.
And so, did you ever encounter Mark Richards?
You know, I've heard that name, but I don't remember in what context.
Well, he's in jail for 30 years, framed for a murder.
Oh.
He didn't commit the murder.
He was...
He's framed for being the mastermind, but I've already had his story verified by a number of people.
And I've been visiting him now for two, three years, and I just came from there to here.
So he is very involved in the Dulce story as well.
And Sean David Morton, I don't know if you've been in touch with Sean, is also someone who was given a record from a guy who, he didn't really die necessarily.
We don't know what happened to him, but he was supposedly the head of Area 51 back in those years.
And he became the head of, he was over Dulce as well.
And he disclosed, he's now written a number of books about it based on this man's notes that were given to him by a lawyer of the man.
And I forget the name he uses, but I think it's a fake name anyway.
But he's a fascinating man, and Sean has got his story.
And that also comes into the Dulce story.
And he talked about an alien that ran Dulce that was not like the normal Greys.
He was, if I remember, taller, and I don't think he looked like a grey, but he, you know, whatever kind of being he was, is, I think, related to what we call Archons, the most closely related to that.
He considered himself royalty, alien royalty of some kind, and it was one guy who ran Dulcy and was a very diabolical character.
No idea if this guy's still running Dulcy, because Dulcy's still there.
But you ever hear that?
Yeah.
I've heard parts of these stories.
I have a contact, I'm not going to say his name, who said he knew where one of the boxes, he had one of the boxes, and it was buried at the top of a mountain, a very dangerous mountain that had all kinds of electronic force fields around it and stuff.
And that people had tried to go up and dig it up and been unsuccessful for a number of reasons.
There was some kind of, I don't know if there were wolves or dogs or what, that were up there.
And it was very forbidden kind of country, you know, side and all that.
Because I know that, you know, you never went, did you go, you went near Dulce?
Near.
Yeah.
And, of course, let's see, what's the guy who they kind of made go crazy, who was also watching Dulcy back in those days?
Starts with a B. Phil Schneider?
No, but I guess he also had an encounter down in Dulcy, is that right?
Where he killed the alien?
He says he did, I don't believe the story.
You don't believe Phil Schneider's story?
Right.
Why not?
Because people that knew Phil said that he was more interested in the notoriety that he got, the fact that he did, in fact, work at an underground base, but it wasn't Dulcie, and that he worked his way into what was called the Dulcie Wars, It wasn't a war.
What happened was, and I knew all this before any of this information came out, these 44 scientists were being given this briefing by a Gray at Dulce in an auditorium,
small auditorium, and for whatever reason, a Delta Force security guard Who should have known better because they were all briefed, do not go anywhere near a gray with any kind of weapon or ammunition because you will be killed immediately.
For whatever reason, this security guard walked into this auditorium and the gray...
Killed them immediately and this was witnessed by the other Delta Force who were watching all of this on a monitor and they sent down a number of people, I believe it was 22 Delta Force, to take revenge.
And the Grey killed everybody, the Delta Force and the scientists.
And that was 66 people.
And that became, somebody named it the Dulce Wars, not a war, it was a mistake, by the security guard.
Now how did that story, if all those people were killed, how do you think the story came out?
I don't know, I think, I'll have to think about that, but I think Cherry told me, and I think the security guard told her.
Okay.
Because it happened in 69, and it was before he decided to make his escape.
Right.
Paul Benowitz, that's the guy I was trying to remember.
Benowitz was also watching Dulcy.
And that's when...
Richard Doty, he and a bunch of agents were assigned to basically make him go crazy, to think he was crazy.
And I think they were partially successful.
I got so interested in the Dulce story and the tiled hallways that went on forever.
That when Cherry started telling me about this, you know, I had to go back to Dulce.
So I drove there, and I checked into a hotel, and I was given the name of Gabe Valdez, who was the head of the highway patrol there.
And I called him up and I said, my name is John Lear, and you don't know me, but I'm interested in the Dulce story, and I was told that you knew something about it.
He says, John, you may not remember me, but I know you.
You came here 20 years ago with steaks and Dean Martin's girlfriend.
You came here in a litter jet.
And he was filming a movie here.
And it won over time.
So he wanted his steaks and his girlfriend.
And so you brought the girlfriend.
I was the guy that met you at the airport and took his girlfriend and the steaks out to the set.
And he said, so I know you.
I said, great.
What are the chances of us getting together?
He says, my shift is tonight, eight hours, if you want to drive with me, you know, I'll come and pick you up and you can spend eight hours.
We'll go from Chen to Six in the morning, and we spent the whole six hours talking about Dulce, all the stories, all the stories about his brother and Gomez, and the cattle mutilations, and...
It was really interesting.
We stopped at the different places and that was when I was introduced to Green Chili and we just had a good time and I stayed in contact with Gabe up until just before he passed away and I don't remember whether it was Before or after I met Gabe,
that I met Paul Benowitz.
And Paul was, I believe, introduced to me by Chris, I can't remember his name, Chris somebody, down in Texas.
He's still around.
And he said, you need to talk to Paul.
So I drove to Albuquerque and met up with Paul and introduced myself and ended up staying at his house for a couple of days.
And he told me all his stories.
He gave me the x-ray of The girl, and I'll remember her name in a second, who, and I don't remember how they made contact, but she had been taken to Dulcie.
She either had an accident or pulled over on the side of the road or something, and they had either taken her kid or they went with her, or I think they took the whole car, because I remember the story about the doors falling off the car inside the saucer.
And her description of the water and the river flowing underneath Dulce.
And so...
So Benowitz, just to get back to Benowitz, he said that I think, if I remember correctly, that there was some kind of, I don't know if it was computer or electronic, you know, communication, you know, with him, an electronics...
Being sent, you know, aimed at him.
And this is way back in, I guess it's the 60s, right?
Is it the 60s?
No, that would be, I went there in 87.
And all of this had been going on, so it couldn't be any earlier than the early 80s.
Really?
I always thought Benowitz was much earlier than that, for some reason.
I could be wrong.
Maybe I have my timeline.
I could be wrong, too.
Now, the thing is that, did he, do you remember, do you think that there was artificial intelligence involved in that?
Do you think, did he...
Did he exhibit, I don't know whether his breakdown or whatever they call it, happened after you met with him?
I mean, did you know him during those days or had he recovered slightly?
Because I thought he died of it, you know, some kind of breakdown.
Yeah.
He had recovered somewhat when I got there.
He was totally coherent.
He just told me the story from beginning to end.
We went to dinner once with Colonel Ernie Edwards.
I think Benowitz was either with us Or, I don't remember how it happened, but we had a picture taken on the Archuleta Mesa, and Paul had these pictures, and he was pointing at something, he was saying, that's one of the ships right there.
And so later, when I was alone with Colonel Edwards, I said, now, Ernie, I don't see anything there, do you?
And he said, no, I don't, but he sure does.
And so we had some interesting things happen with...
Ernie Edwards, I stayed in contact with him and he, one night, trying to think, there was a total blackout of the radar all around Albuquerque and we were trying to find out what caused it and Ernie said,
well it was probably because they were bringing a black ship through And they didn't want anybody to see it.
And I said, now Ernie, you're part of the government.
You're not supposed to be talking about black ships.
And he said, well, that's the way I saw it, you know.
Okay, now there's a couple things.
Los Alamos, you know, in Albuquerque, down from, you know, down the mountain.
Richard Hoagland lives up the mountain from Los Alamos.
You know, the base of Los Alamos is down there, and it somehow is linked to Dulce.
There's a high-speed transport, but it's, you know, like 80 miles or something like that.
Yeah, okay.
And there's another thing, there's a story that goes that whenever you go to Dulcy or go in that area, I guess it's around Dulcy, maybe the town of Dulcy, I don't know.
There's some kind of strange things that go on, like alien women that wait on you in restaurants and, you know, people have reported this kind of thing.
I remember that.
I don't know if you know who Anthony Sanchez is.
Yeah, I've heard the name.
No, he really investigated Dulce in a more recent time, and he went up there himself.
He did contact some kind of, I don't know, facial nerve agent that...
He froze the side of his face or something temporarily.
He did recover from that, but he was very scared by what happened.
And he had some other kind of physical things going on when he went up there.
So he actually went up on the Mesa, I guess maybe Archuleta Mesa, and he had someone, an Indian, I think it might have been a Native American guide, Because they seem very familiar with that.
So, I don't know if you've ever heard those stories.
Yeah, I've heard those.
I'm trying to remember who came up with the first original detailed drawings of Dulce.
It showed all the levels and what was going on at each level.
And I don't remember whether those were part of the Dulce papers.
I don't think they were.
But...
I do remember they were very detailed.
You know, there's another witness who came out not that long ago.
He gave a deathbed confession.
And I've got his video interview linked on my site.
He was actually interviewed, I think, by Rich Dolan and Linda Moulton Howe.
Right before he died.
And he literally, he was an ex, I believe, CIA, or even current CIA agent.
And he gave a deathbed confession about Dulce.
And he was involved in, he said, the president, and I'm not sure which president it was, Truman or Eisenhower, I think was one of them.
I'm If I remember correctly, I'd have to go back and listen to the interview, but ordered them to go in and try to attack Dulcy, you know, to get them to take it over again, you know, to get it back into the hands of the government of the United States.
And he was one of the guys sent in to do that.
Apparently they failed.
From what I understand.
One thing Mark Richards told me is that even though they went in to rescue a lot of the humans that were, I guess, in cages and whatnot, they rescued him, and he said the sad thing is that the Greys went right back and abducted them again.
So it was like it never happened.
Yeah, it was...
Totally an ET operation, although we were trying to make it a joint U.S. ET operation, which it wasn't.
So the story about us going into taking it over may be true, but there's no way we're going to take anything over from ETs.
I remember my first interview with Bill Moore.
He didn't want to...
Meet with me at all.
But I went down to Van Nuys, Sherman Oaks, and made an appointment.
We're going to meet at a restaurant.
He was about an hour late, but I met with him and he gave me this briefing about the EBEs were only about 300 years ahead of us.
Which even then sounded like total bullshit.
300 years?
Yeah.
You've got to be kidding me.
Right.
And a lot of this other stuff.
And he was passing it to the guy that worked at JPL. And then the guy that worked at JPL was passing it to me.
And...
He was tied in closely with Doty and both he and Doty were claiming that they were the ones that engineered the psychological tampering with Benowitz's mind and so on and so on.
Another thing I regret other than not going to see My SEAL team member, whose name was Scotty Lyon, was Benowitz called me about a month before he died.
He said, John, I would sure like to talk to you.
And he said, a lot of water has gone over the bridge, under the bridge, since you came here and spent some time with me.
I need to tell you some things.
And at that time, I was as broke as I am now and didn't have any money to go to Albuquerque.
I'm sorry I didn't try to get there, but he died about a month after he made that phone call.
Right.
I don't know what he was going to tell me, but he certainly had a lot of interesting information.
Now, the one thing That I got, that he gave me, the two things I got was the x-ray of, what's her name, and I'll remember her name in a second, who was abducted to Dulcy.
Yeah, wasn't it, I don't know, Candy or, I don't know, something like that?
Yeah.
You had an x-ray, you're saying.
Oh, that's right.
The x-ray, it was of her.
And it had a, of her neck, and it had a little piece of wire there, nothing you could see, and Ron McGare knew that I had it, and he asked if he could have it or borrow it, and I gave it to him, and I haven't seen it since.
And I don't know whether it would be any good or not, but one thing that Benowitz gave me was a 25-page handwritten word-for-word but one thing that Benowitz gave me was a 25-page handwritten word-for-word document of Leo Sprinkle interviewing Ah, okay.
And I always wanted to get it transcribed and never got around to it until about a year ago.
And one of Marilee's friends was looking for work.
And I said, well, here, I'll give you a few bucks if you'll type this up for me.
And she did, and I have a copy of it.
and I'll show it to her if you want to see it.
All right, yeah.
I'm trying to think.
I just saw it yesterday or today because I was going through some files, and I said, I got to do something with this, so it's not very far away.
Leo Sprinkle, I believe Michael Schratt, you know who he is?
The aerospace historian, Michael Schratt.
I believe he has gotten involved with some of the Leo Sprinkle stuff.
And he'd be very interested, I'm sure, to see that.
Okay.
So, is she still alive?
I mean, what happened to her?
Who?
The woman who...
Oh, I don't know.
Oh, I see.
I don't remember what happened to her after she, because she wasn't there when I interviewed Benowitz or when I stayed at his house.
But there was another family involved during that time, and I don't think they were involved with Benowitz, but it was so odd.
It was a family of Two or three guys, ages 20 to 25, and I think a woman, and the mother,
and they had been driving through the Dulce area, and they all had this story About Dulcy and being stopped and they had a talking dog.
They had a dog and the dog was talking.
And it turns out that one of the guys was a tower operator at Nellis.
And he would give me some, you know, interesting information And there was several guys at Nellis that used to come up to that gate.
That gate wasn't there, but there was some other obstruction.
And they would hang around there until I came out.
And they would give me information.
Like, one of the information was...
Where the cargo came from that came into Nellis.
And one was Groom Lake, the other was Tonawattah Strange, and the other was Coyote Springs.
And we were never able to find out where Coyote Springs is, except I think I know where it is.
I think it's several miles to the west of Pioch.
And the reason I think it's there is I'll show you a map of the secret places in and around Nevada or in and around Southern Nevada and one of them is right near that Coyote Springs or Coyote Wells whatever it was and he and that those two guys gave
me that information along with some other stuff and I don't remember what What the other stuff was.
And then, prior to that, when I gave the lecture at the Spring Valley Library, it created such an uproar It nearly caused my divorce primarily because so many people were calling,
the phone was ringing off the people that wanted copies of this and copies of that and would I give them an interview and she was just going out of her mind.
She finally took all my files and hit them and changed my phone number so that nobody could Good to contact me.
But they still got a hold of me.
That's how I ran into Bob Lazar.
One of the guys that called and wanted information was Gene Huff.
And he said, I told him what I just told you.
Merrily's taken everything.
He says, well, you know, if you can ever...
Retrieve it or get it.
He said, I'd like to have a copy and I'll trade you an appraisal of your house.
And so Marilyn and I continually broke.
I went to her and he said, okay, well let's do that.
So she gave me enough material to give to him to get the appraisal.
And he still complains about that even though it's been 30 years.
He had no idea that the appraisal It was a 7,700 square foot house that he was forced to give an appraisal for the stuff I had.
So when he came over to do the measurements, he brought a friend of his, who he introduced as Bob Lazar, and Bob handed me a copy of his resume And graduation certificates from MIT and Caltech.
And I put them, you know, just behind my desk like we haven't put it there for filing and never saw them again.
When it became important, you know, but so much stuff has disappeared from this den.
It's been There's always monitoring 24-7.
My kids at the time were teenagers and they were continually wanting to change numbers and switch phones and stuff.
So we had one Centell guy, in those days it was called Centell, coming up here to do the work.
And he came in one day and he said, John, your phone's tapped.
And I said, I figured that.
And he said, do you mind if I find out where the tap is coming from?
Help yourself.
So he came back about a half hour later and he said, I went down Monroe to Hollywood, Hollywood to Bonanza, and Bonanza down to Nellis, and it's further than that, the tap.
And he said, I'm going to have to go to the mainframe.
And I'll do that tomorrow.
But this is kind of interesting.
So, a couple days later, he comes in, shows up at the door and says, John, I can't work on your phones anymore.
And I said, why?
He said, your phone is tapped at the mainframe and there is no paperwork to accompany it.
And I went and told my boss, and she said, if I didn't like my job, I could quit.
And he said, I need this job, so...
That's great.
That was the last I saw him.
And then Bob's phone was tapped.
All of her phones were tapped.
Yeah, no, I want to ask you about Bob Lazar, because, you know, he came back out, he did an interview, I guess you know, with George Knapp not long ago.
I mean, it's a year or two ago, three years or four years.
He did part of it here and part of it...
So he came out and then he went, he disappeared again, and from what I understand, he actually went back to work for them again.
Now, is that what you know, or is...
I heard that story and I asked Bob about it.
He said, well, if it's true, how come all the people that I work with here at my business see me all the time and I've never disappeared for any length of time?
Okay, but he stopped talking.
He stopped talking.
He doesn't want to do any more interviews, apparently.
No, he talked to George.
Yeah, that was it.
Well, he didn't do anything before that, actually.
Right.
No, I've asked him a number of times.
Oh.
He's not doing interviews.
That's what I heard.
Okay.
He may be working there, but if he is, boy, I'll tell you, it's really a well-organized job because he'd have to get from Detroit, Michigan to you know the test site for however long they wanted to work there.
Well, I mean, you know, this day and age, first of all, I don't know, maglev trains, etc.
But aside from that, you can still work for somebody, you know, from your house, right?
Absolutely.
So, you know, you have a secure server, whatever it is.
It just doesn't rule it out, that's all I'm saying.
You know, I can't make any conjecture about what he's doing or what he isn't doing.
It's kind of interesting, though.
So...
Have you heard of the Venture Star?
The what?
Venture Star.
Yeah, what is that?
So it's a sort of a slightly triangular, but it's not a triangle.
It's a, you know, and it was said to be, it was coming up out of the ground.
According to Gordon Novell, it was coming up out of the ground up in somewhere near, I think it was Dugway.
You know, Utah.
And it would go take a bunch of scientists.
It wasn't a huge plane.
It's been in several, actually, a kind of facsimile of it in several movies, and it's been on the internet.
There's a photograph of it.
It's a very nice-looking kind of rounded triangular plane, but it's kind of narrow-ish, yeah.
That's right.
Yeah, and it carries, I don't know, scientists supposedly back and forth to, I don't know, Mars or the Moon.
That's the story.
Just wondered if you'd heard that.
I heard that story from several different people.
One guy represented himself as having worked on it at the Skunk Works, and he had convinced a friend of mine That Bob Lazar was full.
That that thing was what they were working on.
And on and on and on.
And I eventually proved to these guys that Bob was the real deal.
At least I thought he was.
And that That picture surfaced.
another one that Gordon was showing around was something that that stupid ass what do they call it this thing that looked like a triangle and had a it had seats like that and
And this is the one that was supposedly shown off at Norton Air Force Base to the congressman.
Do you remember that?
I think so.
Anyway, Gordon Novell used to show that around.
Gordon and I had disagreements over the years.
I guess he finally passed away here a couple of years ago.
That's right.
He went into the hospital with, from what I understand, a foot or toe injury.
And he never came out again.
Oh, really?
And right before he died, he called me up.
And I talked to him.
I was actually driving across the desert at the time, back from some conference or whatever it was.
And he told me that, you know, he was trying to put together a team to build the...
The reverse-engineered craft, and I think it's called the RV something.
Anyway, and he actually gave me a picture of it.
That's what this is.
And he was working with Mark McClanlish on it and all that stuff.
And he had Hal Pudoff and a whole bunch of scientists and a bunch of people involved in what he was trying to do to build this craft.
He needed funding.
And, you know, he was, you know who Ron Pandolfi was or is.
And he was head of the so-called strange desk at CIA back in those days.
But at the same time, he was always the handler for Gordon.
He and Ron Pandolfi used to be on the ins or the outs They had a very sort of tumultuous relationship, but he really seemed to like Ron Pandolfi a lot.
But apparently, the time he talked to me right before he died, he said he was fed up.
They seemed to be using him almost like a patsy.
And he said he had funding, and he was going to go to the Arabs.
For funding because he was sick of being run around the block by, you know, Hollywood and the United States and all this stuff.
And then he died.
So I actually think he died because they made it, you know, happen.
I'm sure that my opinion on this is probably not going to be popular with the family, but that's...
The opinion of what?
That he was probably knocked off.
Um, yeah, you know, he was so out in left field on his stuff.
Maybe he was, but I don't think he knew enough to be knocked off.
Well, apparently putting this company together that he was trying to do, and he was trying to, you know, he's trying to basically build a UFO, and they didn't want him to.
And the last thing they wanted him to do was get funding.
I even went to a meeting where he was meeting with a top Hollywood, I don't know, Entrepreneur, executive, whatever.
And I'm not going to say the guy's name, but he was legitimate.
And they were, you know, they were moving forward.
Whether you want to believe what, you know, they could achieve, I don't know.
But, you know, he had a binder this thick of plans, etc.
I mean, he wasn't idle towards his death.
So it's interesting.
What can you tell us about the years intervening because, you know, you've been on this case for a very long time and you see where we've gone.
I guess you've watched the whole surveillance, you know, society come forward with Snowden.
You know, Snowden is like, from our point of view, the tip of the iceberg.
He's not really going where we've gone and the information we have.
What do you think about the current situation we're in?
It's pretty interesting, you know, you talk about guys like Phil Schneider supposedly getting knocked off and Gordon DeVille supposedly getting knocked off.
Why haven't I been knocked off?
I certainly know more than those guys.
But you're a real old boy.
I went and saw Bob Dean right before I came here a month ago, I think, when his birthday, right near his birthday.
And he's like, I think he's 88 now.
And he's going blind.
And he's an old boy.
And I told him that I was coming to see you, and he said, yeah.
He said, do it.
In other words, you guys are kind of protected.
You're part of the old guard, in my opinion.
Well, I don't get it.
Who was the guy that did the taking out the stuff from abductees?
But why was he knocked out?
Exactly.
Well, we don't know that he was, but there's a very bizarre story.
I know Maria Talcott and that story about John Mack is a fascinating one about how he died.
He apparently stepped out on a corner in the UK and was hit by a car.
But at the same time, This is a story, it seems to be documented, and I think it's Maria Talcott that tells it and knows the details, and she worked for him.
But basically, a number of, I know this sounds crazy, John Max in Britain died on the same day.
And there's some very bizarre situation that went down with that.
That would almost lend itself towards, you know, that's kind of like an occult planned targeting.
There's a lot going on on the planet that we don't know about, obviously, with all the ETs here and also the unseen entities, etc., that come and go.
So, you know, but yeah, I mean, I appreciate that you haven't been knocked off.
I mean, that's a gift, obviously, to us.
I can tell you that since I've been on my way here, and I went to interview Mark Richards and now you, in the span of a couple days, my website has now been down off the internet, attacked, and has been off for four days.
It's finally gone back up.
So why attack my website now if it doesn't matter what you have to say?
You know what I'm saying?
You know, why don't they leave me alone?
Because they have messed with me in a big way.
They're always doing something crazy to do with my website or, you know, all kinds of back-channel stuff.
Now, they haven't knocked me off, but they did try...
Actually, a couple times.
I got some death threats.
In fact, I know it's crazy.
I just got another one.
A recent death threat, supposedly, coming out of Europe for some unknown reason.
I don't know why.
You know, maybe these things are bogus.
You just don't know, right?
But there's a couple I know that were real.
Wow.
You've had heavy, heavy surveillance.
We know that much.
Yeah, the...
I haven't been out of this room for eight years except to go to the hospital or go to a doctor.
Wow.
And I have just felt really, really terrible.
I take methadone, I take oxycodone, heavy doses, and other stuff that a friend of mine who's knowledgeable in all this says, you know, A CIA guy has to be giving you this stuff because there's no reason why you should be taking these pills.
Wow.
And so we've cut out almost all of them except the methadone and oxycodone and I do a little bit of the internet but And it's nice to have you come and visit, to talk to somebody who knows much of what's going on.
But right now, what I want to do is I'm going to get up and I'm going to walk over to that side of the room and show you something.
And then I'm going to walk over there and get a map of these bases.
If I was a conspiracist, I would say that, you know, go out this door and look on the mountain, and there is all kinds of antennas up there.
And that is one strange-looking mountain.
And a lot of the antennas...
or things used to be on this side of the mountain pointing down here and I had some videotape because they changed something every Tuesday morning at nine o'clock and I could set my watch by that and they'd bring a helicopter in and it's one of these helicopters that they could just set down on one skid and the guy would jump out and change something or get something then get back in the helicopter and leave There's
no reason that with the surveillance stuff they have now, there's no reason that they have to deal with it.
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