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May 20, 2016 - Project Camelot

01:44:13

GARY HESELTINE - BENTWATERS UFO UPDATE - PART TWO SOUND EDITED

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	Hi everyone.
	I have Gary Hazleton with me now, and I had to put him on another computer because he's on Skype.
	Otherwise, there would be an echo.
	Okay, so Gary, can you say hello, and let's check and make sure the audio is going to work.
	My name's Gary Hazleton.
	Can you hear me?
	54321.
	Yes.
	Are we clear now?
	Yeah, I've got all kinds of people trying to Skype me at the same time.
	It's kind of crazy.
	And he's on another computer, but I think that the sound is going to be fine now.
	So please understand that I've only got two computers.
	I won't be able to see your questions, unfortunately, at this moment.
	I'm not sure how I can...
	Engineer that part of it, because this is when I have to have him on another computer.
	So, Gary, welcome.
	It's lovely to have you on the show.
	I'm so sorry that we didn't get you earlier.
	No, that was my fault.
	Basically, my wife, who's a nurse, was due to come home for about 8 o'clock, and then at half past 6, two friends turned up and completely threw me, because they want to talk to me.
	I've actually got a radio show to do.
	So that's delayed me and I got to you about 22, 228 before I could get to your message that I was actually now free because my wife had come back early.
	So many apologies, but at least we're here now.
	Okay, very good.
	So at this moment, it's interesting because I was just about to talk a little bit about your case, even without you here.
	But now that you're here, it's going to be great.
	So first, give yourself some background.
	I'd rather have you introduce yourself since we've been so late at this point.
	Okay, quick roundup.
	My name is Gary Zeltine and for 24 years almost I was a police officer in the UK. The last 19 years of my service I was a detective constable.
	I was an advanced interviewer of suspects and witnesses.
	And basically in January 2002 I launched an unofficial national database for UK police officers to report UFOs.
	I started off with six cases involving ten officers.
	Fourteen years on, I now have over 550 cases involving over 1,050 British police officers.
	And it's through my work with police officers that I then began to be asked to do talks, lectures, attend conferences, UFO conferences.
	And that's, in a sense, how I've become known within the subject.
	In March 2013, I decided to retire And we've now just celebrated our third year anniversary and it's going well.
	Excellent.
	Okay, you know, what's funny is I think that I interviewed you very shortly at the Citizens' Hearing for Disclosure.
	Isn't that right?
	You did, and also a basis, but you forgot about the Citizens' Hearing one.
	Yeah, so very good.
	Yeah, it's great to have you back on the show, and it's been quite a long time.
	So, why don't you give a, if you can, sort of a short overview of the story itself for the people that are listening that are not familiar with the whole Bentwaters case.
	And it's quite involved, but do the best you can.
	Okay.
	Read the Bentwaters case, Rendlesham Forest, as we call it in the UK. Essentially, it's an incident that occurs in late December 1918, between the 26th and 28th of December, over three successive shifts, night shifts, lots of different personnel.
	There's different shifts involved.
	And there are UFO activity at or near the base for three successive nights.
	And basically, there are many, many military witnesses, US Air Force policemen, basically, with some civilians on the outside of the base also reporting and seeing strange lights.
	But the main emphasis is the number of US Air Force police officers, witnesses, who were involved in the case.
	Essentially, on the first night, there is a reported sighting of a triangular object that is seen to land in a small clearing, and several officers, including John Burroughs, Jim Pennison, approached that object that's about three metres by three metres, and it appears to be on the ground or very close approached that object that's about three metres by three metres, and it appears
	The second night was less well known for many years, but now I think that's been well established that a number of people on shift have corroborated the fact that Lieutenant Bonnie Tamplin, who was the shift commander, saw something very strange, so strange that it made her ill and she had saw something very strange, so strange that it made her ill and she had to That was confirmed by Colonel Holt, the then Deputy Base Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Holt at the time.
	And then on the third night, which is a more famous night in some ways, because there's a number of things happening, According to Larry Warren, which I believe there is something else happening in Kerpo Green.
	According to Colonel Holt, who I also believe there is something else happening in and around the forest, of which he then becomes a witness with many other people that's in his group to multiple UFOs.
	And at one point, a UFO approaches at high speed, his group of five, he himself included, that stops above their heads, puts a shine of what appears to be a laser beam down at their feet, and for a few seconds then goes off towards base.
	There you see multiple objects in the sky making grid-like patterns.
	Whilst at the same time, all running very similar at the same time, and perhaps unbeknown to each other, there is the Larry Warren account of what is a ground-hugging yellow mist, a patch of mist, a load to the ground, and he is brought a patch of mist, a load to the ground, and he is brought into what is already a circle of US Air Force police officers
	Then suddenly somebody says that he's coming and basically a red light is seen.
	In the sky that stops above the yellow mist, then there's an explosion of light, and then there is a structured craft there.
	That's the basic of Larry Warren's account.
	But what arose out of the third night is that Lieutenant Colonel Holt, as he was at the time in December 1980, he then committed to paper a one-page memoir, which has subsequently been known as the Holt Memorandum, Where he writes just three paragraphs, and it was only ever meant to be a taster for the Ministry of Defence.
	He didn't want to write it, but he was told to write it by Gordon Williams, who was the base commander, who said, it's on a British soul, so you've got to let the British know.
	So his memo was then passed to the Royal Air Force, and then it passed up to the MOD. But that memo is arguably one of the top five documentary pieces of evidence It's on the UFO history in the history of the subject, because the first paragraph says there was a landed triangular craft on the first night.
	The second paragraph then describes how there were ground impressions, indentations in the ground, soil, broken branches in the area where the craft was, background radiation was higher, latent heat was detected in the depressions.
	So there was that kind of physical evidence.
	And then the third paragraph, which is in some way I think the most important is the fact that Colonel Holt then says whilst he's out there at the scene of the sighting two nights previously, they see an object which they follow through the forest until it is seen in an open field near a farmer's house that then silently divides into five white objects and then basically other multiple objects are seen in the sky.
	and the fact that he actually puts to paper and commits himself to see multiple UFOs for somebody of his rank, a deputy base commander of what was a nuclear base is very striking, it doesn't happen very often How's that?
	Okay Wow.
	That was very well said and very well done.
	Great overview.
	The question is, actually, first of all, how did you get involved in this story?
	I got involved in a sense because I kind of engineered it.
	When the UFO Hunters series was ongoing, and I think it was the first series, I got approached by the producer to take part with a view to doing a show about my police cases in the UK. And when it came to the filming schedules, because obviously they were flying in from America, I kind of said, well, what else are you here for?
	And they said, oh, we're doing Rendlesham as well.
	And I said, well, I've got a big interest in Rendlesham.
	And they said, why?
	And here's the thing.
	I kind of have a unique take on it, because between 1983 and 1989, I served in the Royal Air Force as a police officer, and for three of my six years' service, I guarded two nuclear weapons bases.
	In effect, I did exactly the same job as what the witnesses, the military witnesses involved at Ben Quarters, and I knew how the layout, and I knew how the nuclear base worked.
	I knew that the Bentwaters Weapons Storage Area, WSA, must have had more witnesses to the events that had been described, because at one point, Colonel Holt confirmed to me, and it's on video if you actually...
	Click on the Daily Mirror link.
	It'll take you to a video which he made for me personally at the top of the Bentwaters USA Tower where we're actually inside what was the former bunkers area and I asked him About beams being shone into the bookers.
	And basically what he says was that whilst he was out in the forest, they saw a UFO shining beams in the distance to what looked like the area of where the site was.
	But of course, because of their terrain, they couldn't see it.
	So what he did is he changed his radial frequency and basically he then tuned in to the tower Weapon storage area tower frequency and heard the guy in the tower saying that there are beams being shone down from a UFO into the nuclear storage bookers.
	And he did that on a little private video for me, which is now up on YouTube, so anybody can look at that.
	But that's a strong indication that beams are being shone down.
	It's confirmation that beams were shone down into the nuclear bunkers.
	Now, as a result of the program and my background, I said, well, I know that there must be more witnesses.
	Because if that happened, there were witnesses going around on foot with machine guns kind of thing, or rifles, walking around on foot in the weapon storage area.
	And nobody has ever located them, but they exist.
	So if a UFO had stopped over the bunkers and was shining a beam down to the bunkers, then undoubtedly these two, at least two, would have seen it.
	They may well have been four, because there's a backup team as well of two.
	So two were out.
	And two would have probably responded to make four on foot, seeing the beams come down.
	Now, those witnesses have never been traced.
	And what I basically said to the producers of the UFO Hunters program was, I'd like to get involved and ask Colonel Holt some questions about that, because I believe there are more witnesses.
	And on the strength of that, they then said, well, why don't you join this program?
	And they engineered for me to meet with Colonel Holt and network Okay, and what's the status on that script at this time?
	I withdrew it.
	After seven years of trying, because unfortunately, and there is no other way to say this, that he kept making unsubstantiated, defamatory comments about one of the witnesses, Larry Warren, who I got to know, like I got to know John Paniston, John Burroughs.
	I met them, and I am persuaded by Larry Warren He's certainly no angel, but I certainly believe it, that he was involved in the UFO experience.
	He basically began to say defamatory comments, and I said, well, I don't think that's right.
	If you've got the evidence, that's fine, but he never put the evidence up.
	So in the end, after seven years, I ended the collaboration.
	Okay.
	Now, first of all, I'm also curious...
	I have heard various stories about this incident, and one of them does involve actual sort of beings, ETs.
	Yeah, that relates to Larry Warren.
	That's the Larry Warren.
	Okay, is it because Colonel Halt does not want to admit to that aspect of the story, or he doesn't agree that that happened?
	Was he on hand when Larry Warren had his...
	No, he wasn't involved.
	This would appear to be in another area and two incidents that are kind of running simultaneously and he's unaware of each other.
	Suffice to say that the Larry Warren Capel Green sighting where the object has come over the yellow mist.
	It's then there's an explosion of light and then there's a structured craft there.
	Larry then describes basically that some kind of transparent kind of Children-sized entities come from this craft.
	But it's very, very weird.
	It's very hard for him to describe.
	But I believe that has been backed up by Adrian Bustinza, who was actually part of Holt's group.
	And I suspect that that may well be where Colonel Holt finds it uncomfortable to talk about.
	he for a long time his premise as we developed the script was that larry warren uh he finally did accept after my research that he was there um but he did not know him because he'd only arrived at the base very recently uh that he was on shift he accepted that uh but he said that his mind was messed with and he didn't accept the careful green version at all because he said to him it sounds fantastic he It definitely didn't happen.
	And he said that basically Larry Warren, who may well have been on shift and been on the periphery, had been interrogated, which Larry Warren admits to being interrogated.
	And Colonel Holt's premise was that he'd been implanted with a false memory to effectively take away from the real events that were going on.
	Now, I've talked to Larry Warren at length, and Larry Warren has to accept.
	And he does accept that he was interrogated.
	He feels it's a real incident.
	and of course I think about over a year ago Adrian Bustinza who had originally been part of Sergeant Holt's group of five actually came forward and reiterated the fact that Larry was there and corroborated, I mean he'd done it many years ago but he'd kind of shied away from the media for a long time and then he's come back and made a radio show where he finally said Larry was there and I saw Larry there so I've no doubt that Larry, and my always belief is that Larry Warren was there and he was involved in a UFO
	and my always belief is that Larry Warren was there and he was involved in a UFO incident, other memories false memories may have been implanted But this is all going on.
	But do I think that Larry Warren told the real story of a UFO event?
	Yes, I do.
	And that's helped by the fact that a week prior to Colonel Holt writing his fame, It's a memorandum on the 13th of January, a week before, Larry Warren wrote to his mother and gave a kind of a guarded comment, quite clearly says in his letter, which fortunately still retained, and that evidence was produced at the UFO Truth Conference in 2014.
	Because, like many mothers do, your son writes to you from the forces from overseas.
	Many people keep the letters.
	Many mothers keep the letter for posterity.
	And she'd kept the letter, and he had retrieved it back, and then he showed me the letter.
	And I have no doubt that that's an original letter, and I showed it to Captain Robert Sallis, who you mentioned earlier with the Minutemen missiles, and he confirmed that the stamping on the envelope So this is a full week before the Holt Memorandum was sent to the MOD. And so that's significant because
	in this letter he's telling his mum in guarded language because he knew it may well be monitored on the base and it's likely to be something that was scrutinised.
	He's talking in guarded language but he clearly states that there's a UFO incident that he was involved in Literally before anybody else.
	So for me, that's highly significant.
	Okay.
	So what I'm wondering, though, this is interesting.
	I was trying to get you on the screen here.
	It's not so easy.
	But for some reason, the lighting in these computers is quite strange.
	But at any rate, so what I want to ask you is, What is Colonel Halt's position?
	Does he think that the UFOs belong to the Russians?
	Is that what he thinks?
	No.
	In 2009, I think it was 2019.
	Coincidentally, it was the same night that Michael Jackson died, unfortunately.
	So I think it was mid-July, I think 2009.
	But basically, he was putting out a joint press release because our collaboration on the script was there.
	And I said, as the script is near finalisation, you should be putting out some kind of comment about what your thoughts are all these years later.
	And he actually gave a comment that he believed it was extraterrestrial in origin and that it was under control.
	And so he didn't think it was Russians, etc.
	He didn't think it was a psyop that some people have...
	People don't make psyops with live weapons where guards have got live bullets that can shoot you.
	So believe me, that wouldn't happen.
	And no, he believed it and he put it down as ET. And that was his position.
	Okay.
	And can you say what your position is?
	Do you have one?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I mean, I have looked...
	It's a complicated case, and one has to say that there has been, over the years, a lot of infighting between many of the witnesses, which is a shame.
	But that seems to have settled down now.
	But...
	When you strip away the personalities, what we already know that's in the documentary evidence, the Holt Memorandum, is a real document.
	And in a sense, as Holt would say repeatedly to me, he never wanted that document to be released to the public.
	He never thought it would be.
	But eventually it did.
	And Larry Warren is the original whistleblower for the case, because when he...
	Yes, but over the years he was the one talking about it first, which everybody acknowledges, and then eventually he became aware that there was a memo, and he then set in motion a chain of events.
	We had it released into the British media by the News of the World, and there was a big two-page article, UFOs landing in Suffolk, it's official.
	And that's a very famous satellite.
	But that was not until October 1983.
	And what you've got to understand with, say, Larry Warren is that he was fresh from training, The Americans might understand, but he was naive.
	He's come straight from military training, straight onto his post, his first post, and then he gets caught up in this incredible event, and he's 19 years old, and he panics.
	He makes a phone call to his mother, which is corroborated by one of his friends who was stood behind him.
	That's actually mentioned by his mother, and it's a complicated, Series of events, but there is no two ways about it.
	There are many, many witnesses who have yet to still come forward, who are still out there, but no doubt have seen all the press attention to a certain degree, the ridicule, especially put over by the British media over the years, who have tried really hard to downplay the significance of this event.
	But when you have a piece of paper, the whole memorandum, That says that multiple UFOs were seen by the deputy base commander of what was a nuclear base, then that's a serious thing.
	I wanted to get this information out now because I already hoped that it would be out now, but it hasn't been, and I understand why it hasn't been.
	The key premise was that the comments that Colonel Holt said in front of my wife and I, as we walked around together, she and my wife was filming intermittently about there being more nuclear weapons at the Bentwaters Weapon Storage Area than anywhere she and my wife was filming intermittently about there being more nuclear weapons at the Bentwaters Weapon Storage Area than anywhere else in Europe, and that it contravened all the
	You can see why it's a political potato, and you can see why, as I expected him to do, he denied making those comments, because the general rule of somebody of his rank, faithful maybe for his pension is, I can neither confirm or deny.
	That's the stop line put out.
	But in reality, I know it's a nuclear base, and you can very easily prove it was a nuclear base without anybody having to say anything.
	For the simple reason is that the actual number of people involved per shift, do you know how many it was for that base per shift?
	54.
	54 officers in and around the nuclear weapons storage area.
	That's a nuclear base and that's similar...
	What's the numbers that I was involved in?
	Now, nobody else would know that unless you'd worked on nuclear bases, but I had, and I knew that that was a fee as well.
	So you don't even need for actually people to actually come out, it can be proved in other ways, but it's a political hot potato.
	But what I was keen to get out there, especially in light of Robert Hastings new documentary, UFOs and Nukes: The Secret of Link, is the fact that that documentary with excellent CGI brings many of these cases, the Captain Robert Salasman
	Minuteman missiles, you know, the many other sightings from around the US, various of the bases, and including Russia, We're incidents where nuclear warheads were actually activated rather than turned on.
	They were turned on into a launch sequence.
	And it brings it together really well.
	And of course, one of those cases highlighted in the documentary is the Rendlesham Forest-Bentwaters case, because Robert Hastings was able In his book, which came out, I think, 2008, 2009, to track down two new witnesses who still have yet to really have any kind of media attention.
	But they went on camera for the first time for his documentary.
	I think it was Ike Barker and Jim Carrey were two radar operators in the air traffic control tower at Bentwaters.
	And they conferred that a UFO made amazing manoeuvres, stopped near the air traffic control tower, covered it was on their radar at the time when all this is going down on like the 28th of December, which is the night Holt is out, the night Larry Warren's out.
	So it's brilliant corroboration even further that strange events are occurring.
	If we didn't have that already, then coming out is brilliant.
	And I just thought the time is now right because this story is bigger than any one of us.
	The story should be coming out and it is coming out little bit by little bit and this story of there being nuclear weapons there for me provides the clearest yet motive as to why this incident takes place at all and putting it in its historical context At the time of the Bentwaters-Red Ocean Forest incident, and it's not usually put in this context, but I think it's absolutely vital.
	Why do UFOs turn up in the middle of Suffolk, the little old base, Of those illegal nuclear weapons.
	If there was an illegal cache of huge arsenal of nuclear weapons that shouldn't have been there, at a time of world crisis, what world crisis?
	The world crisis is this.
	At the time of the Bentwaters incident, it's often forgotten by journalists, is there was the rise of the Solidarno's shipyard workers under Lech Walesa in Poland.
	Now, Poland was still a Soviet state.
	It was in the last throes of the Soviet era, but it still was a Soviet state.
	And like Hungary, where Soviet troops had gone in and crushed the rebellion...
	Hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops were massing on the borders of Poland at the time of the Bentwaters-Redelstrand Forest incident.
	That's significant.
	So that's a world event pushing us onto the brink of possibly a Third World War scenario.
	Were they going to go into Poland?
	Are they going to go in?
	Is there going to be like a civil war?
	What is the West going to do about it?
	That kind of confrontation.
	And also there was another significant thing happening in world events, which was the Iran-American hostage crisis, the 52 hostages.
	So it was a time of two really powerful crises going on.
	And so to me, at a time of instability on the world scene, it's no surprise that UFOs then turn up at Bentwaters to say, What the hell are they doing there?
	Almost.
	It's an inspection.
	Hence why the beams are coming down into the storage area.
	They are scanning to see what's in those and they shouldn't have been there.
	That's the political hot potato.
	Holt won't talk about it.
	No senior rank will talk about it.
	Because they were lying to the British or were in cahoots with the British.
	Either way, it was an illegal cashier of arms that possibly destabilised the earth.
	Now, why is that important?
	Because when you watch the Robert Hastings documentary, it's quite clear that over the last 50 years...
	UFOs turn up at nuclear bases.
	They've got a strong, appear to have a strong interest in nuclear weapons.
	Now, to me, the fact that there was this illegal cache of nuclear weapons at Bedwaters is the perfect motive and the most sensible reason, at a time of world crisis, Prices as to why they turn up in the first place.
	And it's never really been explored.
	And I wanted to get that information out there.
	And when Holt said that in front of my wife and I, I was already aware of it, as Holt told me during the early part of our collaboration.
	When my wife heard it, she was a little bit taken about because of his flippant nature about the way he talked about the peace protesters that were at Greenham Common.
	And everybody was thinking the nuclear weapons are there when actually they're a few miles up the road or down the road at Bentwater.
	So his kind of flippant remark about being juked stuck and resonated with my wife Lynn.
	So the fact that she could remember that corroborated my account.
	So I kind of thought, well, now is the time.
	This is bigger than any of us.
	This fact should be put out, because it now provides a real motive as to why UFOs turn up at the base.
	It puts it in a context that we haven't had before.
	Okay, and I appreciate that.
	However, I do think there are questions that, even among some of the statements that you're making, As to what is really going on here, because first of all, number one, You say that Hastings documentary shows these UFOs sometimes turning on the weapons as opposed to turning them off.
	That's interesting, but do they discriminate as to whether, and maybe there's no way for them to know, but whether the ones that are turning them on are actually Russians or ours or, you know, in other words, Have you seen the documentary?
	I know, but I have to say I doubt that they know.
	And, you know, in other words, who's driving the craft?
	We need to know this.
	Well, I guess what you're saying is who's inside the craft?
	And I guess the answer is I don't know.
	But based on the knowledge that I've 40 years since I had a sighting at the age of 16, which is where my interest begins, then I believe, based on their movements and their aerodynamic characteristics, they're nothing like stealth.
	They're nothing like any technology that we possess.
	And we're talking about, like, when the Minuteman missiles, 1967.
	You know, so that's almost 50 years ago.
	So that's a long time ago.
	The characteristics of genuine UFOs that are associated with E.T. are completely different from stuff.
	Yeah, I appreciate that.
	Although that's the conventional view, I have to say people that are aware of what is called the secret space program and are aware of the developments of what went on with the Nazis and Project Paperclip, bringing the Nazis over to our shores, with the United States bringing the Nazis over to our shores, with the United States et cetera, et cetera.
	In other words, this technology appears to be out there, and this is part of the confusion and part of, well, this is the cover-up.
	So the question is, is the information that you're bringing out about the nukes that you say are illegally at Bentwaters or were illegally at Bentwaters— And you're saying it was the largest cache of nuclear weapons.
	That's what Holt said.
	Was he saying in the UK? Was he saying in the world?
	No, he said that he was the largest.
	There were more nuclear weapons at Bentwater than anywhere else in Europe.
	What he meant was US nuclear weapons.
	These are nuclear weapons to be fitted to aircraft.
	Okay, but in other words, we don't know what the story is as far as, why do you say they're illegal?
	Because there wasn't supposed to be any nuclear weapons at Bentwaters.
	Who is the person who decides this?
	Well, that's the information that we've been given.
	By who?
	By the base commander who said there were no nuclear weapons there.
	Oh, well, actually, first of all, saying there's, you know, a cover story, that's a cover story.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	So saying that there are no nuclear weapons and finding out later that there's more nuclear weapons, and you're basically saying they belong to the Americans.
	Bentwaters being an American base or is a co-British American base?
	Yes, it was leased from the Royal Air Force.
	All right.
	Leased from the Royal Air Force.
	So, you know, the presumption that they're illegal, I think, is extreme because basically what you have is...
	You have a gentleman who is basically denying their presence, which is probably the party line that he's supposed to claim.
	And so we can accept that he was not supposed to disclose this.
	But we can also, I think, realize that these were not so-called illegal.
	They were obviously there with the permission of the base and therefore perfectly legal within the confines of the Royal Air Force or whoever they rented it from, etc., etc.
	Well, yes, in that sense, you know, I see what you're saying.
	Now, in that sense, the Americans obviously, they're properly, you know, they're proper bona fide nuclear weapons.
	We're talking semantics.
	All I am doing is saying that with that comment, I think that comment is important because he was basically...
	In a sense, releasing some information that he wouldn't normally release, and he wouldn't normally avoid saying such things, but it's too big an information, and what I'm saying is, whether they were there legally or illegally, the fact that they were there provides, and if they were there in the numbers as described by Holt, They then provide this motive as to why UFOs show up.
	I do believe that they're ET that turn up and show up.
	Do I believe that they're recovered Nazi weapons that have been developed?
	Do I believe that we've got some man-made UFOs?
	Yes, I do believe we've got some man-made UFOs, but not in 1980 and certainly not like the movements that were described by Holt and others, the witnesses who were there.
	So, for me, this is an ET event.
	Yeah, I appreciate that.
	Well, according to my witnesses, and given that I interview whistleblowers, I can say that in the 1980s we definitely did have UFOs, and we also had what are called reverse-engineered UFOs, and so it wouldn't be surprising at all that some of those could have been ours.
	However, whether they all were, and whether or not Larry Warren was indeed Messed with in terms of mind control or whether there are actually these were UFOs being driven by off-world entities, which is totally possible in my view.
	In other words, we don't know the answer to that question.
	It would be interesting to, you know, obviously...
	Warren's story with more depth and more witnesses who might have been around when Larry Warren saw the being would also be valuable, needless to say.
	So it is interesting to me also that you're claiming that, in a sense, you're kind of saying that the knowledge about the number of nukes under Vent Waters is what seems to be the news item.
	In other words, the newest item of news that you're claiming is that there were more nukes there than anywhere else in Europe at that time.
	That's the news item.
	Because I believe that associated with the Vent Waters base, even in the many years since 1980 when this actually happened, I believe that even some of your colleagues, the people that were witnesses, may have been party to the idea, including Colonel Halt, that there were indeed nuclear weapons there, that indeed...
	It's possible that the UFOs were interested in them.
	That doesn't seem like a big leap.
	Were you told by others that even back earlier, before Halt mentioned this to you and your wife, in other words, it seems to me, I spoke to someone else about this case recently after you and I got in contact briefly, and they said it was known that there were nukes at that base.
	Well, the thing is, all the people who were on shift knew that it was a nuclear bear because they were trained to protect nuclear weapons.
	Larry Warren, who was just a lowly airman, as it were, of no real rank, he openly said it was nuclear, but they were guarding nuclear weapons.
	Other people, you've got to ask them.
	I think John Burroughs will say, I neither can confirm or deny.
	Jim Pennison will say, I neither can confirm or deny.
	And yet they weren't that.
	They were scientists.
	They weren't a high rank, etc.
	So it's an individual thing.
	But yes, nuclear weapons.
	It was a nuclear weapons base.
	It was a nuclear weapons strike base.
	But I think what I'm saying is that the comment made my hope.
	For me, it's highly important because for the first time, it provides a real reason as to why UFOs turn up over three successive nights to check out and send beams into there.
	It's because of the amount of whether they were illegal or not illegal.
	It's a semantic.
	But the point is, they were that...
	There were more there that nobody kind of knew about.
	And I think that at a time of this world crisis, the real story is the motive.
	It provides for the first time a real reason why UFOs turn up.
	Okay, let's get down to the nitty-gritty then.
	Has anyone come forward, I know this might be asking too much, but has anyone come forward to say that those nuclear weapons at the base were interfered with by those UFOs or seemingly interfered with?
	Was there any reported interference with those nukes that you know about?
	Well, put it this way.
	After Holt had been out with his team for four and a half hours in the forest and had seen multiple UFOs, they eventually go back to the base.
	And the next morning, this is the early hours of the next morning, Colonel Holt sees Colonel Williams, the base commander, and he says you need to get the ordinance checked, which is his way of saying the noobs checked out.
	And Nobody will openly say, yes, weapons were interfered with or checked or interfered with or damaged in some way.
	But I believe I saw recently Monroe Nevels, who was a sergeant who was part of Holt's group, I'm sure it was Monroe Nevels in a relatively new documentary, say that he had got it on record that several of the weapons had to be taken away to be either fixed or whatever.
	But you best probably ask Sergeant Monroe Nevels All right.
	Well, that's very interesting.
	So there does seem to be the possibility that they were interfered with, at least a few of them.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And that would fit the MO, so to speak, of the prior sightings and things that happened, especially with regard to the ones that I'm familiar with, that Hastings has reported, as well as Solace, as well as some other individuals.
	Now, I do take issue, however, with the notion that some of these UFOs This piece of information is questionable in my estimation as to what it does is lead the witness down a completely different direction.
	Sort of scenario with regard to who's driving those UFOs and what are their intentions?
	In other words, if their intentions up to now, we have been told, oh, the ETs are so peaceful, all they did was come to turn off the nuclear weapons because they don't want these foolish humans to use them.
	And now suddenly I'm hearing that you, and then just as you, before you got on the show, I was referring to this interesting interview with Tom DeLong and I guess George Knapp.
	And basically they were saying, again, that they now are purporting that these so-called UFOs are turning on weapons.
	In other words, putting the weapons in a state of readiness so that we would then think we were about to be attacked and the Russians getting the same thing happening to them to where we would attack each other and then these devious creatures, whoever they are, are basically interfering with earthly politics in such a way that they would cause a nuclear war.
	Now, this is actually a bit hard to believe, I have to say, even from the dark side of the ET quotient.
	I actually don't, Kerry, because the way it's put over in the Robert Hirston's documentary is essentially whether you look at the Salas incident where the UFOs turn up over the silo and turn off the 10 nukes because the way it's put over in the Robert Hirston's documentary is essentially Whether you look at the Salas incident where the UFOs turn up over the silo and turn off the 10 nukes is a demonstration.
	And by the counter side to that is the Russians, UFO turns up over their silos and they turn them on.
	But it's only for a limited time.
	But to me, this is just a demonstration.
	By ETs to say, look, we're quite capable of taking over.
	Our technology is far superior.
	For me, this is no more than a demonstration to say, you're messing with serious things.
	This is what we can do.
	So I don't quite see it in the alarmist way that you see it.
	Obviously, it would be an absolutely terrifying thing if you're sitting in a nuclear bunker in Russia when suddenly your warheads go into a launch sequence, which is what Robert Hastings reports in that documentary.
	But to me, this is just a demonstration.
	It was for a few short minutes to cause the panic, like it undoubtedly caused the panic in the reversal with Robert Salas.
	You know, his missiles going offline.
	It wasn't supposed to happen.
	For me, this is just technology.
	They're just demonstrating their technology.
	I appreciate your point of view there.
	I don't actually believe that because I think that beings that come here from interdimensionally or millions of miles away know exactly what they're doing at all times and they're not, you know, switching them on and off at will to cause panic unless that is exactly what they plan to do.
	So that's It's a certain kind of scenario.
	You're talking about who is driving the UFO, and this is actually the crux of the story in the end.
	We need to know at the bottom line, right, whose UFOs these are, and in your case, in Bentwaters, that is crucial and an important part.
	Now, you're painting a political scenario in which it is quite interesting to think about That there were politics going on at the time that would cause a possibility for someone to want to be interfering with the American nukes at Bentwaters.
	And that's someone possibly being Russian.
	But, you know, in essence, it is an interesting scenario.
	It sounds more like we actually have both.
	In other words, it's possible...
	That vent waters and the three days of sightings, etc.
	was about ET UFOs as well as possibly ones of ours, and specifically ones owned by the secret space program, possibly the Russians and maybe the US as well.
	This is the kind of conjecturing, of course, that we can't find an answer to necessarily, but these are questions that I think it's really important to ask.
	No, no, no, I agree.
	And technically, all those possibilities are possibilities because the ufology that we operate in, we're only in the 10% in the more known public domain.
	But the reality is that 90% of this subject will be covered by the secret intelligence services and governments, which we're not privy to.
	We won't have the need to know.
	So all we're doing is we will, in a sense, we will never, unless there's a major disclosure, we're Absolutely.
	Well, it is worthwhile nonetheless because you need to, you know, examine the entire story.
	So I appreciate that you are coming forward with this information.
	I'm curious what kind of reception you've gotten.
	Well, in terms of what?
	I don't know, has the press been banging down your door?
	No, there's not.
	No?
	Okay.
	How did the UK Mirror come to ask you, or actually do the article?
	One of the journalists I know through over many years, and I gave him the information, and he put it in the Okay.
	Well, it was interesting that he managed to do so in a fairly straightforward way.
	Yes, yeah.
	As journalists go, as UFO pieces go, it was a good piece.
	It was fairly decent.
	And, of course, people can go to my website to find the ad for the show and click on the link to look at that article if they're interested.
	So you're not aware of any other publications, either in the UK or elsewhere, picking up on this?
	Well, at the moment, my local paper in Huddersfield has done a story on it based on the story that was there.
	They interviewed me about it, so they've done an additional story that went out yesterday online.
	But as for anything else, nothing.
	Other than radio shows within the UFO community, in terms of the national media, there's been little or no coverage, which is surprising, I think.
	Okay, and as things go, this is a very old story, and yet controversy reigns throughout the story, as you mentioned.
	There are individuals who are somewhat adversarial within it as well.
	This always seems to be the case as time goes on with things.
	Is there anything else that you can tell us that you have been, because it appears that you did do quite a bit of investigation in your travels, that you've noticed, in other words, details of the incident itself?
	Which have been glossed over or actually put out for the most part in the wrong way.
	For example, I do know that at least one publication and one individual, now his name escapes me, who is one of the original witnesses, had completely reversed his story in the early days and basically denied, I think, seeing anything, if I recall.
	As well as there have been various people who say there were no marks on the ground, etc., when there were very clear marks on the ground, etc.
	So any of this, can you address any of that?
	Well, I think the biggest thing that I did, and I was still a serving police officer at the time, is that When I began the collaboration with Holt, I'd met him on the UFO Hunters program in December 2007.
	We then started out And the comment that was said was made whilst he came over for a documentary that actually never was picked up by anybody, made by somebody else.
	And he'd come across, Nick Pope would come across, I'd come across, and this was in November 2010.
	And it's while we had some downtime there that I said, look, it's not very often we get to meet people I'd like to take you back and retrace your steps in light of your audio tape, the 18-minute audio sequence, which is a snapshot of various timings of what was the live UFO event.
	And what we were able to do that had never been done Only once had he done a retrace of the incident, and it was many, many years ago, a long 20-odd years ago.
	But in all the documentaries that you've been involved in, the media have never said, well, let's walk through where you said things happened and what it established.
	That's in relation to your tape, which I would have thought, if you were an investigative journalist, would be the thing to do.
	But they hadn't.
	So anyway, I got him to do that, putting a long story short.
	I was with him, with my wife, doing various bits of filming, and we identified...
	The first farmer's field, which is easy, but then behind it, we identify where the creek was that he talks about.
	We identify the second farmer's field, which was the actual field where the beams stopped in front of them above their heads and shone a beam down.
	Now, that's never, ever been shown.
	On TV or anything, despite me trying to get too mainstream, Channel 4, Channel 5, to show that as an exclusive.
	This is where that happened.
	It's never been depicted in a documentary.
	I challenged both of them to show it.
	Neither of them did, because they still want to talk about a lighthouse, which is a separately It's more about entertainment for them, largely.
	Now, so I think what I brought to it is by going through it and finding out where these actual incidents occurred is, in a sense, my part of it.
	I... I interviewed him at the top of the Bentwater storage area on my video whilst the film crew down at the bottom.
	And he says, and it's on the mirror link, if you go to that mirror link now, they've updated it to show this tower conversation that I had with Holt.
	And Holt says that, yes, the guy in the tower actually contacted him And said that in no two ways about it, beams were being shown down into the bunker, and that other witnesses on the ground, if you remember, these guys who were walking around, these light patrol, which I said, and was the original premise of why I got involved in this, that they were there.
	Now, they've never been identified, but the fact that Holt actually says all that, Themes are in there that the guy in the tarot confirmed this and that other witnesses on the ground also saw it.
	It's significant, and that's added to the case.
	So in that sense, I think that's a positive thing that I've done.
	But this comment that he made, for me, is highly significant because 36 years later, people are still wondering why it happens.
	And I think that provides the most logical motive as to why it happens, that at a time of world crisis, been there or shouldn't have been there in the numbers that they were possibly acted as a destabilizing factor and that's why they turn up.
	Okay.
	What you've just said, what I'm wondering though, sort of my question, my actual question was, what is not being brought forward aside from that?
	You know, in other words, These witnesses, for example, I can tell you that one of the things that went on, I was reading sort of a description of the Robert Solis experience with the Minutemen missiles,
	and he said that they were actually debriefed, that the people were brought in and basically told not to say anything, etc., Now, in this situation, were these people not debriefed and were they also told to say certain things or not say certain things?
	Well, I think from the testimony already that's been gleaned is that Adrian Bustinza says he was interrogated.
	Jim Pennison says he was interrogated and given truth serum.
	Larry Warren said he was interrogated and given truth serum.
	Colonel Holt says he was never given any kind of debrief.
	High rank.
	Basically, a number of other witnesses have said that they were taken as well.
	I think who was the original driver on the first incident with John and Jim?
	He said that they were telling him, it's a lighthouse.
	It's a lighthouse, he said.
	He said, it's not a lighthouse.
	and in the end he's told it's a lighthouse.
	There's no two ways about it.
	There is enough corroboration from the individuals who have gone on record to say that some kind of intelligence agencies were brought in, which would appear to be US and also British intelligence were involved in that interrogation process.
	In the end, he's left with fragments and...
	And as I said to many people, even if we strip away all the personalities, like you said, all the adversarial elements that's happened over the years, when we stick at the actual evidence, the evidence...
	Now, the ground tracing...
	It's well recorded.
	It was well recorded in Holt's memorandum.
	The background radiation was confirmed even by Nick Pope that it was seven to eight times later, higher than background radiation in the area of the indentations, which were uniform.
	The guy that said that basically there were animal markings that looked like animal hackers was a guy called Vince Thurkettel, who was a forester, When every man and his dog trampled over the scene of the landing, and therefore it would have been destroyed.
	I actually, during that filming, that second time I met him and when we're going around in the forest, of which I've got 11 or 12 clips that my wife recorded, one of them is actually in the area, as best he could remember, where the landing site was.
	And actually we're in a clearing and I kind of like pull up the soil and say, how did this look?
	All those years ago.
	And it was said it was kind of similar and whatever.
	So there's no two ways about it.
	We're talking about three triangular equidistant depressions to the same size, etc.
	And so that fact...
	That a star stroke was used.
	That's all a matter of record and is in the documentary evidence and all the people with Holt at the time, apart from Lieutenant England, who's never gone public, all the other people there have gone public who were with him to confirm that they were at the site when they saw a UFO, that they'd done like a forensic scene examination two days after the event.
	Why two days after the event is another question in its entirety.
	But is there evidence to say that there were grounding questions that were regular triangle?
	Yes, there were.
	So I don't think that's up for debate at all.
	I don't think it's up for debate the fact that a landed craft was seen of a triangular nature on the first night.
	That John and Jim got involved in.
	Other aspects of it, maybe more conjecture, that have emerged later on.
	But not at the time.
	The actual triangulate, as mentioned by Holt, Holt didn't want to write the memoir.
	He didn't want it to come out for the simple reason was that he knew that if it came out, his life would never be the same.
	And in reality, that's what it...
	It changed his life forever.
	And actually, on the very first night I met Holt, We were in the pub talking about this, and I said, you've had a...
	He told me all about his career, and I said, you've had an excellent career.
	I said, well, you've got to understand is that when you die, you will be remembered for your military career.
	You'll be remembered for one thing, and that's the Bentwaters of the Red Ocean Forest Center.
	And I think that kind of surprised me, because that, in a sense, will...
	It's bigger than anybody, to get caught up in one of these major events.
	And so...
	He said...
	In the old memorandum, he's absolutely the only ever tester.
	He didn't want to write it.
	And he was kind of Joel by Gordon Williams, it's on British, so he got to let the RAF know.
	And he didn't want to write, and it was kind of pressured him to write it, and he just did a one-page memo.
	So that's kind of like the backstory, but he never thought it would come out.
	Is the state of Colonel Holt's life since then?
	In other words, do you know what transpired in here since then?
	Sorry, are you picking up there?
	Do you know what transpired in here?
	I'm picking up, sorry.
	Interesting.
	Alright, well, I guess my question is being interfered with.
	I'll try...
	Can you hear now?
	Hello?
	I can't hear you.
	You can't hear me.
	I heard that.
	Okay.
	I'm asking you about Colonel Halt's life.
	Colonel Halt's life.
	Yes.
	Well, I think it's probably a question for him to answer.
	He certainly... ...and he retired as a full colonel.
	So, in the end, it didn't affect his career too much.
	But, you know, it's very common that most people in the military, when they get enrolled in places, they do worry.
	So they contact me if they want to be in order to be tarnished as much as the way we treat the subject.
	Absolutely.
	So, are you able to hear me now?
	Okay, that's very strange.
	Well, nothing has changed on my end, other than British intelligence maybe decided they wanted to interfere, or perhaps the Americans.
	So, You're a bit clearer now, so keep going.
	They've obviously turned down the interference button a bit.
	Yeah, well, I guess so.
	What I want to ask you is, have there been any other, the witnesses that you say have not come forward, do you know who they are?
	Have any of them come forward secretly to any of you, any of the group?
	Not to me, but they're out there because, like I said, Holt confirmed that on the video.
	So those people are out there, and nobody, I don't think, knows who they are, or if they do, I'm not aware of it.
	I certainly, from talking to John Burroughs in 2010, he was saying that he knew of witnesses that should there ever be a time when this subject is far more able to be talked about seriously, that they may come out, but you'd have to ask John on it.
	Okay.
	Is there anything else?
	Have you had sightings and done investigations since then?
	Oh yeah, I mean, obviously, being the editor of the magazine, in terms of Reynolds from Forrest, I make periodic returns back there to do my own research and bits of filming.
	But essentially, and I do many lectures on it, from a police cold case, where I strip away and just look at what's called an evidential review of the case, and it's still very persuasive.
	And of course, in recent years, we've had the extra information Of the two air traffic controllers, that adds to the case tremendously.
	It's confirming that there were UFOs over the base, which goes away from the sceptics.
	The fact that they were a different department, i.e.
	air traffic control, as opposed to the US Air Force police officers.
	Totally independent cooperation, almost, that there was UFOs over the base.
	The fact that Adrian Bustinza, in a sense, went public again to talk about his involvement and to confirm that Larry Warren was there, which added greatly and certainly was nice for Larry Warren, and I was pleased for him for that, that he did that, and it should be noted.
	So he's very slowly...
	We're getting the pieces, but we're never going to get all the pieces.
	It's impossible we're never going to get the pieces.
	I think what we've got is 60-70% of the jigsaw of what's occurred.
	But on that 60-70% of the jigsaw pieces, if you put them down on the floor and put them down like a jigsaw, we'd be able to work out pretty much what this is about.
	And I think this is about BT having an interest in the bass.
	Okay.
	Have you ever, are you aware of one of the individuals who was one of the initial witnesses who changed his story early on?
	I don't know who you're referring to.
	Okay, well I'm going to have to look for the individual's name.
	For some reason it's not easy to find him, I don't think.
	So when you dealt with Nick Pope, what was his reaction?
	How did he report the story?
	Well, Nick is a strange character in my book.
	I've met Nick many times.
	He's an affable guy.
	Personally, I have always said, and I've said it to his face, I still think he feeds information into the Ministry of Defence.
	I think kind of like once you're CIA, you're always CIA. That's maybe me being a paranoid schizophrenia kind of thing.
	But I don't think that's the case.
	I think that's my personal belief.
	And I've told him that.
	But, I mean, I've had dinner with him and whatever.
	But Nick plays, for me, a very strange role in the UFO debate because one minute he's pro and the next minute he's negative.
	But that's Nick.
	I couldn't do that.
	If somebody says to me, do you believe that we have extraterrestrials interacting with planet Earth?
	I'd say yes every time.
	Nick would probably say no most of the time, even though in 1996, when he first went public, he went on BBC2's very prestigious Newsnight programme, which you can still find that on YouTube, where this is unequivocally, I believe, in ET. But I think pretty much since that time, he's swayed many, many times, which I find frustrating.
	And I know that many of the UFO researchers who are pro-ET find him Strange at times.
	Yes.
	Well, he seems to be doing a job, basically.
	Yes, yes.
	That's the way he comes over to me.
	But like I say, he's an affable enough guy.
	Yes.
	Maybe he's playing a role in all of this.
	Who am I to know?
	What I'm saying is that if somebody asks me every time on live television, which you don't get onto live mainstream television very often, do you believe in ET that they're hearing engaging now?
	I say yes every time.
	I think Nick doesn't say that at all, even though he said it in 1996, which I find a bit confusing, personally.
	Right.
	Are you aware that he writes fictional stories about UFOs and attacks?
	Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm aware of all of that.
	Okay, because that's an interesting, that's always an interesting twist, right?
	If he doesn't believe in them, doesn't think that ETs are a threat or even a real thing to contend with, Why does he write the fiction that he does?
	I'm not so sure that it's all that successful, but nonetheless, it is an outlet, so it's an interesting one for someone who has been somewhat of a debunker through the years.
	Well, the best way to sum up, Nick, was that the citizens' hearings in 2013, of which I was a witness, And he basically had 39 people who said, it's ET, it's ET, it's ET. And so the congressman says to Nick, so Nick, you've retired from the MROD, what do you think?
	And he goes, well, it's very interesting.
	I'm not quite sure.
	I really don't know.
	And I found that.
	I was not surprised that he said it, but I thought that it kind of made me wonder why he was there at all.
	Okay, yeah, well, this is the kind of thing that goes on, so there's a lot of people doing jobs within this scenario.
	Yes, I agree.
	It's a shame, really, because, as I've said to many people in our lecture, the UFO community has been very poor, historically, at presenting its best evidence In a unified way across nations.
	You know, 50 years ago we should have created some kind of a United Nations kind of system of international delegates that would be now a very powerful body.
	But we haven't because we've argued amongst ourselves and my groups better than your group and the egos have got in the way largely.
	And in many ways we've not progressed from where we were 50 years ago and that's sad.
	Okay, now in terms of your own background, can you tell me when you had what was in essence some kind of inciting incident in which it changed your whole view of reality such that you are as open-minded as you are?
	Well, my interest in the subject begins very simply with a childhood sighting at the age of 16 where I was walking my then-girlfriend home An area of Lincolnshire called Scunthorpe, which is the town where I'm from.
	I was walking home.
	We were walking along a long narrow footpath that dissected on my left what you would say high school fields and on my right was what we'd say in England a large garden area called allotments so people would grow their own vegetables.
	It was a huge big area.
	And at the time of the sighting, there were no streetlights along this long footpath that divided these two clear demarked areas.
	And at the end of the footpath, there was a housing estate with all the power lights on.
	It was an August night, it was bam, it was summer 76, and basically not a cloud in the sky.
	When as we're walking along this path and it was dark, because there was no lighting at that point, there is no lighting there now, but there wasn't then, we saw at about a 60 degree angle an object, so bright white light, nothing more, not a fixed structure, anything that you could say, it's that shape, just a bright white light moving from our right to left.
	And the strange thing was that as it went past us, As it passed by us, we were behind its flight path The whole of the power in the streets, in the distance, behind the object's flight path plunged into darkness.
	The power cut.
	Total went to black.
	All total power out.
	And my girlfriend, rightly or wrongly, associated the light with causing the blackout.
	She became a bit anxious.
	We're watching.
	And as it moves very slowly in the general direction of my home, There was a second power cut on the housing in the distance, the housing estate in the distance, behind the area of the object.
	Now, I was pushing my bicycle at the time, so I said, get on the bike, and it had a crossbar, a boys bike, and so two of us on the bike, I rode very fast down the end of the alleyway, Turned right and headed in her home, which is about 200 to 300 metres away, her house, and then the whole area was still in darkness.
	I then literally just dropped her at the house and then rode as fast as I could back the way I'd come, back along the same long narrow footpath onto what was called Grange Lane South, turning right on Grange Lane South, and this was the main road that went towards my home.
	And the whole area is in total darkness.
	And I raced and I raced and raced on my bike as fast as I could, looking for the light, which was initially ahead of me.
	Now, a strange thing happens that near to my home, this Grange Lane South, this road, bends around to my left.
	And at the point it's going to bend to the left, There was a clear demarcation where the power was on beyond the bend.
	So I'm driving, I'm riding through the streets, pitch black, everything's out, power out, and then on this corner, Where it bends around to my left, the power is on.
	Everything ahead of it.
	And as I get onto that corner and move from darkness into light, I look over my right shoulder, see that I've managed to slowly, to get ahead of the light, and it's just behind me.
	So I can put my arm back Stretch it out and push it back slightly and it's just behind me at that kind of angle, a 60 degree angle.
	And literally, I then go around two corners, Westdale Road, onto Baysdale Road.
	I live near the top of Baysdale Road.
	Drop my bike outside the house.
	I rush inside.
	I say to my mum and dad, we're having a cup of tea, British tradition, cup of tea, supper time.
	Come outside, there's going to be, I think there's going to be a power cut caused by this strange light.
	They don't get up because they think I'm...
	Stupid, I guess.
	But I rush through the hole, into the kitchen, through the back door, into the back garden, turn around to look back at my semi-detached house, just in time to see the object coming over my rooftop, by which it was a bit higher altitude, but it was there,
	and I don't know why I do this, but I put my arm up, like answering the question in the kids' class, put my arm straight up, And no sooner did that object go past my arm, so therefore I was then behind the object, all the areas plunged into darkness.
	Now, how can I predict power cut?
	Ridiculous.
	So I knew that at that time there, that that object, having moved to a second geographical position, must have interacted with the power grid, because it's ridiculous for me to be able to make up or predict power cut.
	That's where it all kicks off from.
	Wow, okay.
	But what year was this?
	That was 1976.
	But I didn't really become active In terms of having the pull to get involved in research, until the mid-1990s, when I then came across a printed magazine called UFO Magazine, which was under Graham Burtle, the UK editor of a very well-known publication, until he sadly died in 2003.
	And that reawakened my interest, and as time went on, various other things happened.
	I've myself been pulled into one to get involved in active research, but the problem was that as a detective, your time is not your own.
	If there's, say, a rape case, you tend to work all the hours under the sun, you hardly go home, and it's work, work, work.
	And so I could never be one of those guys that would be like, oh, I'll see every Thursday.
	It couldn't work like that.
	So for me, it was what could I do that works around my busy work schedule, unpredictable schedule, and I basically had the idea of a database, went to see Graham Birdsell at UFO Magazine and said, look, I've had this idea for a police database.
	Would you allow me to write an article?
	And he said yes, because he was all for trying to add credible witnesses to the story, the UFO story.
	So in January 2002, the proof or sleaze data And that's how I then became known because straight away police officers, mainly retired at first, began to write to me, email me and tell me their stories about seeing UFOs.
	So that's literally how it all happened.
	Okay, that's actually, sorry, I was just, the light, you know, it's gotten very dark in here.
	Yes, yes.
	I was just trying to adjust the lights quickly here.
	Well, that is very fascinating, and I appreciate your story.
	What I'd like to do now, and I don't want to keep you for too long, but if I can possibly arrange it, I'd like to let the people ask you some questions.
	We do have a live audience here, and we have a chat room where they can type their questions.
	So I want to ask everyone to put their questions very quickly into the chat.
	And I will attempt to access it, and it's a little tricky, so bear with me while I do that.
	Did the UFOs disarm the nukes at Rendlesham?
	Well, I think the person wasn't listening earlier on, but do you want to just address that question directly?
	Yes, certainly after Holt came back in, the next day, in the early hours of the next day, he said to Gordon Williams, you need to get the ordinance checked out, because he told him that beams were being shone down into the weapons storage area, and it's believed that some weapons were affected, but it's still a bit of a grey area because of the sensitive nature of nuclear weapons.
	Okay, and another person, what does Gary think the reason for all the discord is between the various parties regarding Rendlesham?
	That's a very good question, and there's no quick answer to that.
	I always personally believe that Colonel Holt, who I had this seven-year association with, as the highest-ranking person to have seen the UFOs and go on the record about that, I think it was his responsibility personally to pull everyone in under his wing, as it were, as a leader.
	To kind of like smooth the waters and say, look, we're all a part of this.
	Sadly, he himself became involved in that, especially with regards to Larry Warren, which was not good.
	I personally think that as a senior officer, and you are a senior witness, a senior ranking witness on this, it's your role to bring everybody together.
	Sadly, that hasn't happened.
	And there are many reasons why that is, but it's not really...
	In the time that we have available to answer.
	But it's a shame that that has happened.
	That's what I'll say.
	But I think there's a lot more freedom now and acceptance of other witnesses' testimony now than there's ever been.
	So I think it's better than it was.
	Okay, yeah, that's interesting.
	Well, actually, that does lead me to ask you, what response have you gotten from the other people with your recent article that came out in the Mirror?
	Have you had any response from any of the other witnesses to what you've come forward with?
	No, no, no, nobody's approached me directly.
	Okay.
	Someone wants to know, were there any actual, what they're calling EBEs, seen during the incident?
	And this relates to the Larry Warren testimony, one of the witnesses.
	We did discuss this earlier, but if you want to reply again directly to that question, go ahead, Gary.
	According to Larry Warren, basically, as he is one of several U.S. Air Force police officers guarding around a structured craft that's emerged in an explosion of light, basically, he then says...
	He says it's extremely hard for him to describe because it's like time was being distorted.
	His senses were being distorted.
	But during that process, he sees what three kind of lights that emerge from Was
	he regressed?
	He was interrogated.
	No, was he, did he have any hypnotic, you know, you can go to a therapist who can...
	No, no, I believe, although I've never seen it, I believe that he was regressed by Bud Hopkins, the famous researcher.
	But I have not seen that interview at all.
	Oh, you haven't?
	Okay, that's interesting.
	Okay.
	What about yourself?
	Someone is asking, have you had or did any of the participants have missing time?
	Are we talking about the Reynolds and witnesses?
	Yes, but if you've had missing time in other UFO experiences of your own, you could mention it.
	No, I subsequently, whilst I was still serving, have had I've had two off-duty sightings during my time when I was a police officer.
	But no, I've not seen aliens, put it that way.
	I've never had, I've never meditated, I've never had what I perceive as any kind of missing time.
	But with regards to the Rendlesham witnesses, One of the things, and I've said this before, but I have to be careful how I say it, is that when I first met Holt and we agreed on the collaboration, I said, right, I'm going to go away and now research everything I can find about the case that's in the public demand, and then I'm going to start asking you questions.
	So I kind of went away for four months and then started...
	Coming back with all these questions, which he answered, and that was fine.
	But one of those questions was along the lines of examining his four and a half hours that he's in the forest, in accordance with the various updates that he'd done on his audio tape, which were little snapshots of a lie of the internet.
	But I basically kind of laid it all out for him in my research, and I said, your timeline doesn't add up.
	And he says, I know.
	But that's all he said.
	Okay, very interesting.
	Now, was the Larry Warren sighting the exact same night and same timing as what Colonel Halt saw?
	We don't know that for certain.
	We believe it's the same night.
	Larry Warren believes it's the same night.
	As for Holt, Holt believes Larry Warren's case is made up, that it was an implanted memory.
	Maybe he was there in a peripheral, he can accept that, but he doesn't accept the Capel Green.
	Larry Warren believes it's real, and I believe Larry was involved in the UFO incident.
	So we're not exactly sure.
	And don't forget that when Holt wrote his memorandum, he actually got the dates wrong that we've now been able to ascertain.
	And when I did my research, I came back and said, well, I think you've got your dates wrong.
	And he said, yeah, I think I have.
	He acknowledged that he had.
	But there is still some conjecture.
	But I think from Larry's point of view, he was aware From his point of view, that there was something else going on in the forest with Holt.
	So that would make it suggest, if that is correct, that it's the night of the 27th into the 28th, i.e.
	the third night of activity.
	Okay.
	What about Colonel Holt?
	Has he ever been regressed?
	No, not that I'm aware of, and I don't think he would...
	You best ask him, but I don't think he would want to go down that route.
	Okay, and why not?
	I don't know.
	I think you'd have to ask him.
	I don't think...
	Well, I mean, you've spent some time...
	I mean, when I said, basically, your timeline doesn't add up, and he said, I don't know, the logical question is that his timeline doesn't add up.
	So there's some suggestion of timing is not quite right.
	So that, to me, suggests that that's a possibility, or at least it's a question worth asking.
	But I don't think it's an area that he felt comfortable with.
	Certainly, I don't think would accept that he had any missing time.
	Okay.
	What about the other witnesses?
	Did any of them get regressed?
	Well, we know that both Jim Penniston and John Burroughs were hypnotized at various times over the years.
	I think John Burroughs was done several times.
	I think Jim Penniston at least once.
	Okay, and what was the result?
	Do you know?
	Well, John Burroughs, I've seen some of the clips, I've not seen all of the tape, but I've seen some of the clips that, you know, he's very animated describing what's going on and, you know, there's like something there in the forest.
	You know, it's very atmospheric the way he tells it.
	A bit of clip I've seen of Jim Penniston is, I think, was set up by Linda Moulton-Howe, and basically he says an interesting thing about, well,
	certainly there's a portion of it that I've seen where he's talking about, can you see the binary codes, which is mentioned in Linda Moulton-Howe's Glimpses of Other Realities, which is a different issue in itself, but I certainly know that he had hypnosis at one point.
	Okay, he had hypnosis.
	Did it substantiate the story as Larry Warden and others had told it, or did it contradict it?
	Do you know that much?
	Well, what you've got to think of is that certainly John and Jim, their experience happened on the first night.
	By once, happens, occurs on the third night.
	So, in a sense, they can only talk about their incident under...
	In one sense, because John Burroughs will say that he actually turned up off duty, felt there was something going on on the base on the third night, and tried to get across to see what was happening with Holt and his men.
	Now, on the actual take, there's a reference to the fact that John Burroughs is asking for permission to come forward and Join Holt's team, but Holt says no.
	And that's part of the tape.
	But John Burroughs will say he did get across, and in fact, that he did get ahead of Holt's team, and he had some interaction with the UFO, where he's almost inside it.
	And he goes into a ball of light, and Bustin's a season going to a ball of light of some kind, which is very weird, and Okay, let me ask you more specifically.
	Did any of the people who were regressed through hypnosis, etc., did any of them see the ETs reported by Warren?
	I don't think that none of those, John Burroughs, Jim Penniston, Jim Penniston only talked about what happened to him on the first night, so he couldn't possibly know anything to corroborate Warren on the third night.
	No, I'm asking for themselves.
	Did any of them report seeing any ETs?
	No, I think what you've got with John Burroughs, and I've seen it described in a documentary, he's like, he finds himself inside something that's, you know, lots of points of light.
	I don't think he sees creatures, entities, or whoever wants to describe them.
	But, you know, the best person to ask is John Burroughs.
	I appreciate that.
	You know, because we have you at hand here, it's useful to ask you.
	Yeah, that's fine.
	Yeah, I appreciate that.
	I mean, these are even questions that you yourself, in theory, or halt, or, you know, in other words, if you guys would get together, you know, and I'd be happy to have everyone here on a panel discussion if you want to invite all of them.
	It would be fascinating to do.
	I said when I first met John Burroughs in 2010 that the best course of action would be to get all the witnesses together and then take them aside one by one and get their accounts and kind of like say, well, look, gloves are off.
	Let's, you know, bury any hatchets.
	Let's just go forward together because you're all part of it and you've all got a different perspective.
	And just accept that you were a different part of it and a different perspective.
	And it's not about who's right or my version is different to yours.
	It's about accepting that you're all part of something and move forward together.
	But in reality, the witnesses can't seem to do that.
	And it's a real frustration for me because that would be the logical thing you would do like what you're trying to do.
	You'd have them on a panel.
	Certainly, I know that Colonel Holt has repeated, he said he won't appear on a panel with Larry Warren, whereas Larry Warren would appear on a panel with Holt, despite, I think, all the things he said, because he would fight his corner kind of thing.
	But when you have those kind of differences going on, Okay.
	In terms of your own, you know, you have a newsletter, you're still on the scene, you're investigating.
	Have you found more evidence in regard to shutdowns of nuclear weapons?
	And you have a background also working in this area.
	So have you tried to track these stories beyond, I'm talking, you know, beyond the obvious?
	In other words, We know about the Hastings.
	We know about the Solace information.
	But I'm saying, on your own, have you gotten or come across further information to do with ETs, UFOs, and nuclear weapons?
	In my research, and since I've launched the magazine, I obviously get involved in various things, and obviously Police officers.
	But at various times, what I can say is that there was a very interesting incident that I brought to the attention of Colonel Holt, where somebody who claimed to have a very detailed knowledge and appeared to be very, initially, very bona fide, was giving me new information on Rendlesham about radar and things like that.
	And he seemed to know what he was talking about.
	And I fed this information in to Colonel Holt and basically, putting a long story short, is we think that that was a disinformation exercise.
	I didn't release it and I've never released it to the public because in the end we felt it was a disinformation exercise.
	But it was very persuasive and it was a very good kind of story that was put out there.
	But in the end, we felt that it was disinformation.
	So we didn't publicize it.
	So that's the closest I've come to, in a sense, finding additional information that's not reached a wider domain yet.
	In terms of my UFO Truth magazine, well, many of the people who write Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	He has told me about many military cases.
	People like Francisco Correa, who's the exo-politics of Portugal, he's told me military cases involving that.
	Portuguese military aircraft can get involved with UFOs.
	And I'm very drawn.
	Susan Hansen from New Zealand, Mary Rodwell from Australia, they told me military kind of...
	Nothing, anything like Rendlesham in terms of nuclear weapons, but Captain Robert Sallis has written in the magazine, and he gives a lowdown on what occurred there.
	And we know that other bases have had their missiles affected.
	So, you know, I get lots of stories, but in a sense they're coming to me, and these are known events.
	I have not got involved in any other live nuclear weapons issue, shall we say.
	Okay, and Colonel Halt, he's retired, I take it?
	Yes, yep.
	Okay, but he was a colonel in what exactly?
	The Royal Air Force?
	No, no, no, he was the U.S. Air Force Police.
	Oh, he was in U.S.? And essentially, that was his career.
	And hence why he became the Deputy Base Commander at Bedwater Woodbridge.
	And I think I think he went off to the Philippines and he retired as a full colonel.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So I know this sounds kind of strange, but who was in charge?
	Who would be above Colonel Holt?
	That was Gordon Williams, who was a colonel himself, now a general.
	General Gordon Williams.
	And he has made interesting comments about that and kind of like has tried to distance himself from Holt and the writing of the Holt Memorandum.
	But I can tell you that Holt was the one who said that Colonel Williams, as was the base commander, told him, you must write this memo, you must write to the MOD because it's happened on pretty sort.
	So that process was writing a letter to the RAF Liaison Officer.
	It was at the base, and I think quite Lieutenant Strickland, and basically he then passed the letter up through to the Ministry of Defence, who then, within literally a day or so, deemed it of no defence significance, which is pretty amazing to me.
	Well, perhaps it were the cover story.
	Has Colonel Halt or anyone else sort of revealed...
	You know, men in black, other sort of incidents where they were perhaps messed with and or interrogated even off the base or had intelligence meetings with either British or American intelligence.
	Has anybody talked to you about that?
	Not to me personally, Holt will say that after he sent the memo, he expected a major investigation to be given by the Ministry of Defence because it had happened on British soil, but he said that never came.
	He said he never got a debrief.
	He was never taken to one side by anybody and debriefed about it, which he says was very frustrating.
	What we can say is that various witnesses...
	Holt, Penniston, Bustinza, Burroughs, all had interrogation.
	So Penniston, Burroughs, Bustinza and Warren, they all confirmed that they were interrogated by what would appear to have been a U.S. naval intelligence and at least a person from British intelligence.
	But not Holt.
	But not Holt.
	This is one of the frustrations Holt has, is that he said, nobody told me anything, and I expected to, you know, for a big investigation, but he never cared.
	But what he has alluded to, and what I think Jim Penniston and Anne Burroughs has alluded to, that in the days after the events on those three nights, an unmarked transport aircraft And apparently there was a lot of activity in the forest where these incidents had taken place, which they were kept away.
	And even Holt will say that there was unusual activity on the base.
	And Captain Mike Verano, who was at the base, one of the people on shift, basically will say that he took Colonel Williams, Out to the runway to meet an aeroplane that had landed to hand over an envelope.
	And he took the colonel, the base commander out there, who handed over an envelope to a guy called General Gabriel, who was only the head of US forces in Europe at Christmas time, which is pretty amazing.
	So I suspect that, you know, that was something very...
	Much to do with what had occurred in the forest and that what was in the envelope was rumoured to have been films, a cine film that was rumoured to have been taken, and photographs.
	According to Holt, the photographs that his team took came out fogged, according to Jim Payston.
	His camera, on the first night, he took loads of photographs of the landing craft, and they all came out fogged.
	But that's all that he was told.
	So whether there's a cover story there, I don't know.
	But certainly, Captain Mike Barano went public to say that he took Colonel Williams out to the runway where a jet landed, a fighter jet landed, and the pilot was General Gabriel, who was the head of NATO forces.
	And that's actually corroborated that he turned up at the base on a document that's been released from the Freedom of Information Act.
	So, you know, we are certain that General Gabriel turns up.
	Now, Believe me, having been in the forces, the last place you'd expect a general, the head of the US forces to turn up at Christmas, is at another base overseas.
	So I think that was highly unusual.
	Okay, well that's very interesting.
	Alright, one last question that I see here, and then I guess we're going to let you go.
	They're asking if you, what do you think of crop circles?
	Do you have any thoughts on those?
	Yeah, I know a couple of crop circle researchers.
	I've been to a couple of crop circles as well.
	And basically, I do believe they are under the umbrella of ufology.
	Clearly, I think from what the research from my colleagues will tell me who research them, that 95% are man-made, but there's definitely 5% that aren't man-made.
	And there's certainly, I think, some kind of message going on.
	What that message is, I don't know.
	Maybe somebody does in the secret world, but I do believe that a proportion of crop circles are made by ET. Okay, fair enough.
	All right, well, thank you so much, Gary.
	This has been a fascinating discussion.
	I'm really glad you made it.
	I can only apologise for the late delay.
	But we've done a good two hours now.
	Yes, absolutely.
	And it's a pleasure.
	And, you know, let people know you were a detective.
	Do you consider yourself still a detective or a retired detective?
	I'm a retired police detective.
	Obviously I've got a lot of experience.
	And I'm now the editor of UFO Truth magazine.
	And if anybody wants to check that out, then if they mention your show, I'll give them a free complimentary copy of the magazine.
	Excellent.
	Okay, and do you want to give your website out?
	www.ufotruthmagazine.co.uk It's a 96-page e-zine, bi-monthly, every two months, and it features many of the top researchers in the world.
	Okay, and is this published online or offline, or both?
	Well, it's an e-zine.
	I send it to the subscribers, direct to their email every two months.
	Oh, excellent.
	Okay.
	Okay, I didn't hear that part.
	Okay, wonderful.
	Alright, so thank you so much again for coming on the show.
	If you get a chance, please do contact any of your colleagues, people involved with the Randall Shum case.
	I did read Left at Eastgate, written by Peter Robbins, and I would be happy to interview everyone together if they would be interested in coming together to...
	To sort of go over issues and things that may be still in question.
	Yeah, I will contact Larry and Patriot, who are the co-authors of the book, and tell them to contact me.
	Okay, very good.
	And with this new information, could you please stay in touch with me and let me know if there is any sort of subsequent interest from the rest of the press out there?
	Oh, absolutely.
	I am surprised that there hasn't been yet.
	Tell us what will come out of the woodwork.
	Yep.
	That's right.
	And now that Project Camelot has been on the case, hopefully we'll see you be interviewed elsewhere as well.
	So have a great night, Gary.
	And everyone, thank you so much for listening and being patient and waiting.
	And this will go onto YouTube and I will also try to edit a sound copy to put out there as well.
	So thank you very much.
	Thank you for having me on.
	Okay.
	Good night.
	Good night.
	Alright.

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