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Nov. 6, 2011 - Project Camelot
01:07:34
PROJECT CAMELOT : ED LAUGHRIN : KENNEDY BALLISTICS & THE CHALLENGER DISASTER
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...over this material and you use your own judgment because I don't want to put you or anybody associated with you in trouble, any danger.
And also, too, I was sort of taken aback with your audio with Gordon Lavelle because he knew a lot about this.
Right.
And he said it was a perfect operation.
Well...
You might say yes, but I would never laugh or joke about the seriousness of this.
I remember when I was 11 years old and when it happened, and I grew up in the Mahoning Valley.
Well, in 1960 I was just a wee little kid, 8 years old, and I sat on my dad's shoulders and there was quite a turnout in Youngstown and we listened to John F. Kennedy's speech.
So, you know, I was close enough.
I saw him.
I looked at him.
You know, I heard him loud and clear.
And I was cheering like everybody else.
But anyhow, maybe that should be up to your own personal discretion.
Okay well at this moment you know because we are recording and because you've come to me this is what I'd like to do is just qualify this recording say this is Sunday October 9th 2011 and your name are you coming out under your name?
Do you want your name on the material or not?
Yeah might as well take credit for it and I've already been threatening People know who I am.
Alright, so please state your name.
It's Edward Gerard Blockering.
Okay, and if you could give a slight background as to who you are and how you got involved before you explain what the information is.
Well, I'm retired civil service and I'm a former United States Navy sailor.
I've been around the world quite a bit, and I was engaged in special operational groups during my time in the United States Navy.
Prior to that, I was involved with aviation, general aviation, and I enjoyed flying.
I was into that and I did a little stint as a skydiver.
And my educational background, I hold a bachelor's degree in human relations.
And how did you get involved in investigating this material?
Well, my father was World War II Navy veteran and he was one of the first Seabees.
He and some of his veteran friends on the 22nd of November, when this took place in 1963, as a kid, you know, I'd hang out with him and I'd go places with my dad naturally, I would, and he'd meet up and it was a topic of conversation.
And a lot of the World War II veterans viewed the distributor filmed and they noticed that the President When he was hit, the fatal gunshot that it's hit and recoiled back.
And any of them that were in combat, you know, and witnessed or had to take actions, you know, against our enemies during World War II, and even our GIs, you know, a headshot to the front, always there's a recoil back.
You know, it'll snap your head back.
And, you know, that was always a mystery.
About the Harvey Oswald.
You know, he's always, you know, is he really the one, the shooter?
Because the sniper's nest didn't really make a lot of sense in the Texas School Book Depository.
There's a question that should be asked about that.
When President Kennedy came up Houston Street to the intersection of Elm, That was a perfect shot from the Texas School Book Depository.
Straight down, unimpeded, clear shot on Houston Street.
Another opportunity to take the shot would have been right at the intersection turn on Elm Street.
No shot was taken.
There were credible witnesses that knew Fleet Heart and Oswald was standing on the corner of It's my opinion that the Texas School Book Depository is an observational platform.
And because it's located where it could coordinate a sniper team, So, what I have come up with is, based on Dr.
Crenshaw's work, Conspiracy of Silence, in my review of that book, and thoroughly going over it, and also in the book, Conspiracy of Silence, there are morgue pictures, post-mortem of President John F. Kennedy, and they are untainted.
They're actual.
And they denote a wound in the neck and also fragments on the back of the neck and the upper shoulder midline and also a small dime-sized entrance point above the right eyebrow just below the hairline on the right side and then the catastrophic exit wounds.
So, that is obviously, you know, gunshots from the front.
Now, the wound in the front of the neck still happens to be a tracheotomy, because they opened that wound up, you know, to ventilate the president.
Excuse me.
But I've worked everything out from an aerial picture, and part of my education, I think, qualifies me to do ballistic analysis.
I was trained in the Navy, and I went through course studies as an intelligence specialist, which dealt with aerial pictures.
So what I did, I blew this aerial picture up, scaled it, and worked the problem based on more pictures from Parkland Hospital.
The sequence of shots are as follows.
And I think I'm relatively pretty accurate on this.
When the presidential limousine came up to Houston and made the left-hand extreme sharp turn onto Elm Street, the first shot that was fired was from an upper floor area on the rooftop.
Of the building, which is right adjacent on the same side of the street, on Elm Street.
That bullet flew down the center line with good elevation, good angle, unimpeded, clear line of shot, intentionally trying to hit the President in the back of the head.
It missed.
It passed over President Kennedy's right shoulder.
And it struck Governor Connolly.
That's bullet number one.
Bullet number two was fired directly in front of the limousine, and there's a triple highway, underpass, bypass, and there's railroad tracks there, right down on the center line in front of the limousine with good elevation, clear line of shot.
That's the second bullet.
It was fired.
It struck President Kennedy in the neck.
Number two.
Okay.
President Kennedy raised his arms and he looked in the direction of Mrs.
Kennedy.
Mrs.
Kennedy leaned in.
The third shot was fired, but it was pulled.
Direct miss.
It's a sniper on the grass.
You know, did not want to penetrate President Kennedy's right side of his head and have the bullet pass into Mrs.
Kennedy.
It missed.
It struck the curb.
And you can denote, you can go put your finger on the, on the nick on the curb.
It may correspond.
Okay.
Bullet number four penetrated to the right.
Pfizer.
And you can see it if you're on it frame by frame.
And the visor is in the upright, right above a Secret Service agent in the limousine.
Okay, that's bullet number four.
Bullet number five is the kill shot.
It strikes John F. Kennedy above the right eye, below the hairline.
Those are the ballistics.
Those are facts.
That's what happens.
There you have it.
One, two, three, four, five.
Okay, but what I... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but basically you're telling me where you think the bullets went.
You're not telling me who shot them.
Who shot them?
I gave you positions, you know, which automatically this should be strong evidence to clear the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.
That he is not the sniper.
Absolutely not.
Now, I can't prove this one way or another, but on my research and going over a lot of material, there's a guy by the name of Sarti, and that's on the Internet, and he was a Corsican Sicilian.
And then also I talked to an individual, I'm not going to give you his name, and he's 85 years old.
And like your friend, Command Master Sergeant Bob Dean, He also was a Command Master Sergeant in the United States Army.
And he's been there.
And he went over this material with me, and he confirms the location of the kill shot.
Because he's been there when he was in the Army, Army Intelligence.
And he's 85, and he's a resident of Florida.
I spent three hours with him.
And also, I know an individual who's a Navy SEAL who has gone over this material, and he agrees with it based on the board pictures from Parkland Hospital, thanks to Dr.
Crenshaw.
So, it's pretty tight-knit here.
I mean, there's no room for slot.
But the blowback on this material, this work, I'm sorry to say this, but I absolutely cannot agree with the Warren Commission or Arlen Specter in a single bullet.
It's just not factual.
It just didn't happen that way.
Based on the entrance and the exit wounds on President Kennedy, it was a horrific, horrific event.
It's absolute treason, even to this day, to murder a president.
The President of the United States of America.
But I understand through a lot of my other work and everything, well, this is basically my work, ballistics.
But all the factors, Kerry, that have come into play, all the enemies that John F. Kennedy happened to accumulate during his time in the White House, all came down on him.
Yeah, all at once.
And that was in Daly Plaza on the 22nd of November 1963.
And you can see today, currently, right now, that the American people are getting quite fed up, you know, with the powers that be.
And basically, I think it's time for people to try and get their country back by peaceful protest.
And this, in and of itself, should be a motivator to bring back what our Founding Fathers intended for all of us as Americans.
Do you have any questions, Carrie, for me, in addition to this?
Well, first of all, are you familiar with the work of Robert Morningstar?
The name's familiar, but I can't say I'm really familiar with any of his work.
No, I'm not.
Okay.
Well, I did an interview with him quite some time ago.
We talked in brief about the Kennedy assassination.
He's been investigating it for years and has also written books about him.
I believe that you may have some information that might be useful to some other researchers, but to tell you the truth, you don't really have anything That I can tell that is more over the top than what is generally known at this point.
No one believes there was a lone gunman unless they're just part of the mainstream and they're just so programmed they really can't see straight.
So at this moment, you know, there's no doubt that it was a conspiracy.
There's no doubt that there was a number of individuals and organizations involved, certainly the CIA, certainly the mob Mob at the time.
And from what I understand, there could be some other elements, including Israelis.
But at this moment, what you're telling me doesn't really constitute anything to wrap.
So if you keep it quiet, it's when they bother you.
It's when they're trying to intimidate you just to get you to shut up or just to mess with you because they've got nothing better to do with themselves.
The one thing that concerns me, I agree with your good advice that you're giving me, but you know, Phil Snyder, why in the world did they knock him off?
I mean, I've listened to him, and I, you know, about deep underground military bases and so on and so forth.
And then they turned around, and then I found out that Phil Snyder was left-handed And he died from a gunshot wound of the right temple, Gary.
And there's no possible way that he shot himself if you're left-handed in the right temple.
It's quite awkward.
I mean, look, if you're a ballistics expert of sorts, I'm not sure if that's...
Okay, you know, that can be very useful looking at evidence across the board.
There are many, many people that have been suicided in various ways.
And so, you know, why don't you just start a YouTube channel and start going over all the cases out there, not just the Kennedy assassination, from the point of view of ballistics.
That would give me something to do if it passed my time as a retired civil servant.
Well, yeah, if you have expertise like that, it can be valuable to the mainstream.
Well, I have a knack for things.
I have a way of, you know, cutting down and being concerned and unravel things, you know, and look for the truth, like you do.
You know, but we all do it in a different way.
Sure.
Yeah, we do.
But anyhow, I've given you complete ballistics.
And...
I have talked to the Federal Bureau of Investigation about this, and they have all this material.
But if...
And then the individual that I talked to...
I don't feel comfortable telling you his complete name, you know, but...
That's fine.
They were picked up, this Sarti, Lucien Sarti.
Yes, I'm familiar with the name Sarti.
I'm familiar with this.
Okay.
But they were picked up by the Dallas police.
There were other witnesses who saw a man in front of the limousine coming down off that highway underpass, overpass, and then the railroad tracks looped around.
They loop around from in front there.
Then they go past the grassy pole and onward.
But I have to admire E. Howard Hunt for his deathbed conception.
This was known, according to him, as Operation 40, the big event, and he considers himself a benchwarmer.
From what I understand from the Internet, which is in public domain, there were like 27 individuals involved in it.
And then also another one that's very, very dirty is Lyndon Baines Johnson.
And that's from testimony from his mistress.
She came out with all that.
They were murdering people left and right over this thing.
Right, and you're asking why they killed Phil Schneider.
I mean, Phil Schneider came forward at a time with key information.
Had he come forward at this time, when the information was already out there in mass, maybe he wouldn't have been knocked off, but obviously he came forward at a certain juncture.
We're at a different time right now, and the knowledge about The things he talked about are well known in part because of him.
And so they do knock off people.
They kind of pick and choose, I guess, who they decide to do that to.
I like to think that they're not doing that quite as much anymore because they...
Little to lose because it's becoming pretty obvious what's going on.
But in some ways, they're still threatening people.
Because I've been threatened and other people I know agree.
But there's a lot more leeway at this time.
And especially with regard to past events.
So in the sense of what you're talking about, we can put this out as it is, as an audio recording.
It's going to be fairly rough, but it is...
Well, what I'd like to do, you know, I'd really like to get through this ordeal because I'm overwhelmed with what I have to go through, you know, to get myself back in shape.
It's not going to be very pleasant, you know, but I'm going to have to just do this.
But I'm going to wait later on, you know, once I get back up to feeling right, and then I can pursue this and maybe get some help from others that are far more computer savvy in my area than I am.
Okay.
But I think maybe you should just take this raw the way it is.
Because I gave you the sequence of shots, and I've never heard the sequence of shots.
And I have studied this and pondered it late awake at night.
I've gotten up in the middle of the night and worked on it, gone over everything.
And it's all because when I was eight years old, I sat on my dad's shoulders at a rally for John F. Kennedy in Youngstown, Ohio.
I was for Kennedy, and I think that was horrific the way he just got himself destroyed in Dallas.
And my opinion is that it's high treason, and there's no statute of limitations on treason.
I hear you.
Well said.
Let me say this.
As far as your ballistics background, can you go into more detail as to why you think you're sort of a semi-expert in this field?
In other words, what was your exact training?
Well, when I went into the United States Navy, I had a choice.
I went through a horrific divorce process because I was a fool and an idiot to get married at the age of 22.
What was I thinking?
But it just didn't work out.
After a nine-year period, I was getting a little on the upper end.
Well, it just fell apart.
I was there alone in my apartment one night feeling sorry for myself.
I got to thinking, there's got to be some adventure.
And my first thoughts were, hey, you know, the French Foreign Legion might be a good way to go.
And then on the second thought, I don't speak French, so I'd be at a disadvantage.
I'd have to be an extremely fast learner.
And my second choice, actually, was the United States Navy, because my dad always used to tell me when I was a kid growing up, and, you know, if I ever used to call me Edward, And he said, Edward, if you're ever really finished, just take time out and join the Navy.
Be a fleet sailor and see the world.
So I did.
And I was 30 years old when I went in.
And absolutely out of shape.
And I went through Great Lakes.
And I was in, you know, The state flags and sailors would know what that means.
We had triple threat with us.
I sort of represented the state of Maryland.
We were like a great unit.
We were pretty fancy looking recruits.
I transitioned from that and graduated from boot camp into my great surprise.
I was in extremely good physical shape and completely focused, you know, on the Navy, completely committed.
And there was our division officer.
There were two of us who were selected.
And there was another sailor and myself who wanted us to go to bud school.
Are you familiar with that term, bud school, Carrie?
No.
Well, they wanted to transform me into a United States Navy SEAL. Well, so happened, before I got on the bus to leave for boot camp, my cousin Jimmy, who's a retired Navy SEAL,
and anyhow, it was too adventurous as far as my mother was concerned, because she was a cousin to his mother and really worried his parents quite a bit what Jimmy was doing, especially during the Vietnam War.
Because he used to take rebreaters and go in and recon the Haiphong Harbor, you know, and things of that nature.
And I promised my mother, you know, but I thought it was a real long shot.
Why would they want me to be a Navy SEAL? You know, really.
Well, for some odd reason, you know, they thought they'd pick you.
You don't pick them, more or less.
You can put a request in for it.
But I was one of these characters that was getting picked on.
So I declined it.
Then I went through Gunner's Maid A school.
I did quite well in that.
Then I was assigned my ship.
It was USS Aubrey Fitch, FFG-34.
I was a member of Destroyer Squadron 8 in Mayport, Florida.
Our claim to fame was that we were the first Navy vessel To go on seeing when the Challenger exploded.
And we picked up debris down there.
And we all have nice certificates, and I still have mine.
Presidential commendation from Ronald Reagan.
But I've been to El Salvador, operational operations, Operation Blue Light.
I've been involved in a Persian Gulf And I'm a Blue Nose.
I've been up over the Arctic Ocean, or Arctic Circle, rather.
And I'm also at Shellback.
I've crossed the equator.
And I've sailed down through the Suez Canal.
And I've been to Karachi.
I don't recommend it.
We were there for R&R for a week.
And yet, be very careful.
You be very careful when you're in India.
But Karachi's a heck of a lot worse, let me tell you, especially today.
So as I went along, I requested another additional school in the Navy, and it was an intelligence specialist.
So I went through that.
And anyhow, the reason why I really didn't make a career out of the United States Navy, my mother, we discovered she had Parkinson's disease.
And she really wanted me to come home.
Because I only got two weeks leave out of the year.
So I carried a lot of leave.
We did 30 days a year.
And I was a member of the Naval Reserve.
And then I met my second wife.
And, you know, things are fine.
And I settled down during war in Pennsylvania.
So that's my background.
I also hold a federal firearms license, too, and I do instruct as a firearms instructor.
So, you know, I'm familiar with weapons.
I'm familiar with a variety of handguns, rifles, and in the Navy I'm very familiar with assault weapons.
Okay, it sounds like maybe you're a little modest in terms of calling yourself a possible expert.
It sounds like you are an expert.
Well, I'll tell you what, with the new modern technology and everything, you can't really miss a target with some of the advanced weapons that we have today.
And computers, it's not like old school.
And it's just absolutely amazing, you know, how How they've advanced on a lot of stuff.
I was watching a YouTube video the other day about this new camouflage that they have, Special Forces, our guys.
And it actually refracts light in some way, somehow.
It must be nano or something.
But it actually is sort of similar to all you've seen the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, Terminator.
or no, it's not, yeah, the first, not an action term there, I've got my movies mixed up, Predator, with the alien that could cause himself to be relatively invisible, They were in Central America and Jesse Ventura got zapped in the chest with a laser.
But it's similar to that.
But the technology is so advanced all the way around.
I mean, completely.
You know, in weaponry.
And then I know another individual who states that our military now has the capability to shoot somebody with an ultraviolet laser.
And what that does, it causes your heart to stop.
And you're done.
And you never see it.
And I have to take issue with a lot of this stuff.
I have a problem with a lot of this weapons technology.
I mean, we should only use and get involved in wars, my personal belief, is if we're really threatened, you know, our way of life, and for defensive purposes only.
You know, we should never be out running around looking for a war.
But there again, that's the military industrial complex.
Right.
Because peace is cheaper, or not cheaper, more expensive.
Excuse me.
Peace is more expensive than war.
Yes.
For a crazy reason, you know?
Okay, so...
Let's get back to some of the things that you've done.
One of the questions I have is the Challenger explosion.
You said you got a piece of it, and I wonder if you ever tried to investigate whether that was a natural occurrence.
Well, I didn't really get a piece of the Challenger.
We got quite a bit of it.
It was spread out.
And what we were doing on that day, we were coming up, we were on an exercise exercise.
Our squadron and other Navy ships.
And we go down and it was called a pack fire in the Caribbean.
And then we did a missile shoot.
And at that time we had a Mark 13 missile launch.
So we fired it.
We had target drones and anti-submarine warfare.
And that was roughly about a week's worth.
It was a workup of exercises and drills.
And we were coming up the coast and right at the time we were right off of the Kennedy Space Center and we went on deck and we tracked the ascension of the Challenger on our surface search radar and all of a sudden it blew up.
I mean, that was it.
And then the booster rockets were out of control, but they can detonate them from the ground to destroy them.
So we tracked all the debris, and it took us 20 minutes to pull up on the crew compartment.
And we had them on our surface search.
And it floated for about ten minutes, and when we pulled up on it, you know, where we were at, the ocean was relatively pretty clear, and we could see the windows in the front because it was sinking stern first in the back of the compartment.
And we had a couple of divers on board, and, you know, we weren't allowed to put them over to the side.
But the depth there, On our pathometer, it was 90 feet.
And we pulled up on the crew department.
They submerged about 40.
And then through the grapevine in the Navy, after they waited 47 days and pulled the bodies out, they couldn't bail out of that thing.
And there were a couple of survivors.
We found out later from Navy divers.
Because it was a grapevine.
We know.
Okay, what are you saying?
You're saying that the seven people who died, some of them survived?
They survived the initial impact because we got the aspect, you know, when it reached terminal velocity, when it came out on its drop, it was blown free, you know, because that's the compartment where the crew is at is extremely strong.
It's like a diving bell, more or less.
And it fell, and it hit on the left side.
And, you know, the door was struck, but they tried to, you know, jettison the door.
From what we understand, and we did see movement, you know, when we pulled up on sync.
There was movement, you know, because the windows were pointed out, and it was sinking.
You know, the back end was going under, and And then we were pinging them with sonar, you know, to get their location.
And we had a medium-range sonar on my ship.
And they were definitely at 40 feet.
And they were decompressing.
You know, we could see air escaping.
But then we were ordered off because there was an AGI. And what an AGI is, it was Russian.
And it looks like a...
Fishing trawlers.
But they were intelligence gathering ships.
And we had to do an intercept on the AGI, keep them out of that restricted area.
Because there was quite a lot of debris that was thrown free.
And you're talking manuals.
There were several manuals.
And one of the gloves we picked up that they used on their On their suits when they go outside, you know, into the space environment.
And we would pick up debris, and we also recovered a lot of assemblies, because it's made out of titanium.
And it was amazing, because we actually recovered the right landing gear assembly.
And then we would run it into the Cape, you know, and they'd offload it.
Photograph everything, and then we'd go back out.
But USS Aubrey Fitch, SFG-34, was the first ship, and that was the ship I served on.
It was first on scene during the Challenger accident.
Okay, but there seems to be some confusion as to whether or not what the astronauts actually died of.
Also, from John Lear, I recall that the Challenger situation was actually that there is some unknown information out there about it.
Possibly some intended effects of actions that were taken on the ground before the thing took off.
Do you know anything about Why the astronauts were not rescued?
They were written off, as far as we could determine.
And it was poor judgment by Mr.
Truly.
Okay, they were written off by...
Yeah, they gave up on them.
They assumed, because of the catastrophic explosion, they were dead.
And then we desperately, my commanding officer, gave them all the information.
We think they're survivors.
And then we were ordered off.
And a lot of guys...
So you were there first on...
Wait, wait, wait.
You were there first on the scene.
In theory, you could have helped recover the bodies or help get people to safety, but you were ordered off?
Yes, ma'am.
Yeah, we were.
Yeah, that's the way it was.
So why, as an investigator, have you never, like, gone down this road at all?
Well, because, you know, I mean, you can't really take on, you know, an error that NASA made, you know, and that was their big blunder, because they didn't have a real picture of the situation out there, and they weren't paying attention to a United States Navy ship.
Why would they not do that, though?
I mean, you know, in other words, I'm Project Camelot, right?
So I'm looking for conspiracies everywhere I turn.
Some would say that's foolish and others would say that you'd be foolish not to look for that at this point in this juncture of our history.
So what I'm asking you is, if your ship was there, if you were first on the scene, if you were on the crew, didn't something strike you as being wrong?
And not just because of human error or foolhardy judgments.
Because you've got people in NASA who are, you know, they're sending astronauts out into space.
They have to have good judgment to even get their jobs.
I will end that, Jerry.
But they didn't have any good judgment.
Their judgment flew out the window that morning at 11.35, roughly or whenever.
Okay, is it possible they were under orders to tell you to leave the scene?
Well, I can only tell you how it was.
And we had to go chase after an AGI, you know, a Russian trawler, and we were told to pull back.
However, I have heard, you know, Stories, we'll call them, that they had an onboard computer.
They do have black boxes, you know, and the Challenger had one.
And it was reported that they were actually saw us at the bottom of our ship pulling up, and they were quite excited about rescue.
And they heard us because we did a back down.
What that is, we threw our propellers like an umbrella, you know.
And you can shift the blades.
It's hydraulic.
And then you hit cavitation when you're on forward momentum.
And then you reverse the propeller, and it bites backwards.
You know, the thing turns inside out, all hydraulic.
And you cavitate the ship, and it'll vibrate.
On their flight recorders, in the Challenger, they heard our cavitation.
You know, and all that stuff we sealed up and put away.
But I'm getting my certificate out, and I'll just briefly read this to you.
Man Fleet Flight Awareness Certificate of Appreciation is what it is for NASA. Presented to Edward G. Loughran, the appreciation of your dedication to the critical tasks you performed in support of the Presidential Commission Investigating the Space Shuttle Challenger Accident.
Your valuable contributions assisted in identifying the actions required to return the National Space Transportation System to slight status.
And, you know, there you have it.
Okay, but in reality, that sounds like a ticket to be quiet.
A ticket to be quiet?
Eh, maybe, I guess.
Okay.
No, I mean, you know, look, I have a commendation from some work I did as a contractor over at JPL. So I understand how they dole these kind of things out.
Look, in terms of what goes on with your being there, you said that there was an AGI, is that how you termed it?
A Russian trawler?
AGI, correct.
Okay, now what was the role of the Russian trawler?
Were they trying to help?
Why were they there?
Not at all.
What they do, they would monitor our activities here at the Cape.
They have a real special interest in filming anything that NASA would launch, from shuttles to satellites to whatever they do, you know, whatever launches they happen to have.
And they were always trailing us.
When we'd go out on deployment, we'd go out as individual ships, and then we'd form up, you know, into a battle group, and they would follow us around.
Okay, so, but at this point, you're the first ship on the scene, and then there's a Russian trawler, and you're told to leave the scene.
Does the Russian trawler follow you, or do they stay on the scene?
We backed them off.
We forced them out of the area.
They were warned off.
Leave.
So you guys left.
Who went in when you left?
Well, there was like a lull right there because they had to gather their resources.
Why would they do that?
I mean, that doesn't sound intelligent if you've got a, you know...
I'm scared for accidents.
They were caught flat-footed on this thing.
Right, but you were there.
You were there and able to assist, but you were turned away.
Why were you turned away?
Did you ever not report that there was something very suspicious about, you know, if I'm in a distressful situation, I see a ship in the vicinity, and that ship turns away and goes away, I'm going to be extremely upset.
Well, the deal was, in the Navy, we have to follow orders.
Sure.
You know, it's a chain of command.
But you are able to question an order that is, you know, illegal or...
Well, if you can really prove it's illegal, you have a unified code of military justice, but you have to have witnesses.
But by and large, you have to follow an order.
Okay, but how many people were on your ship?
I forget.
We had roughly about 185.
So 195 people were witnesses, right?
Not all of them.
Some of them down in the engine room of the cooks and storekeepers, you know, they weren't really privy, but everybody all hands on deck when we were recovering, you know, wreckage and debris.
So everybody basically chipped in and they were aware.
I see.
You know, after the event.
I mean, is there some danger that your ship posed to the survivors of the Challenger?
No, none at all.
No, negative.
Okay, so then, I don't understand how in good conscience, if I'm captain of a ship and a challenger with these very famous astronauts is in danger, how in good conscience do I turn my ship around and leave?
You follow orders.
And never question, never investigate further?
No, you don't.
You follow orders.
And that's your primary objective, you know, serving in the armed forces.
And I was an enlisted man, so, you know, my thoughts belong to me.
But, you know...
Okay, what about among your crewmates?
Did you guys ever discuss the idea that possibly, in the fact that you guys were turned away, that that was the last chance that those people had to stay alive?
Well, we're human beings, too.
And you're correct.
We did discuss it.
Wow.
It was.
It bothered a lot of us.
I mean, all of us.
It bothered us.
That's incredible.
It was horrific.
Yes, it was.
Well, you see, our Navy, you know, the Admiral up there in Mayport, he turned us over to NASA to take our orders from them.
But then our duty was to protect the scene.
And then there's a North Atlantic drift.
And a lot of material was drifting up, you know, up towards the...
The Northeast started to spread out.
The sea was just littered with debris.
And then the heavier objects sunk down to 90 feet, because that was the depth on our fathometer.
We were pinging off the seabed.
I don't know if you, being from California there, You've probably, have you ever done scuba diving?
If you have, you know, you can go to 90 feet when you're decompressing up.
So are you saying, maybe I don't understand, because I have done scuba diving, but I don't know much about it.
I only tried it once, I think.
But at any rate, not here in California.
Are you saying that the Challenger landed in water that was 90 feet deep?
Yeah, which is They landed short of the, you know, the continental drop-off.
Right.
You know, it runs out.
Yeah.
Because they could not have, well, they could have recovered them, but they were in relatively shallow water, 90 feet.
Well then, okay, so even here again, so there had to be some pretty significant evidence that they were able to recover, right?
Well, we took our orders.
And then we did what we did.
We followed orders.
Well, I'll be honest with you.
It was sort of an assumption that they had a search and rescue operation within their capability at NASA. Now, it turned out, Gary, they did not.
They had nothing going for them.
They had to rely on the Navy and the Coast Guard.
You know, they had no capability at all.
You know, their only way was to, like if something went snafu for the vehicle to run land.
Well, I guess I'm not understanding, you know, maybe I just don't get what you're talking about.
Are you saying NASA or the space shell itself had no capability to deal with a crashed Of that catastrophic event, there was no way.
They were done.
They had no wings.
They were blown apart except for the crew department, which you have an upper tier and a lower tier.
That was it in a nutshell.
They dropped and they hit the water.
It was the left side where the hatch apparently was at.
We had them on radar.
We actually painted them, plotted them, had them right on the button.
It was through our CIC. We were relaying all this information.
It's like it was too much for them.
They went into a vapor lock.
The powers that be, they're the managers.
The ones, you know, because it was a shock factor.
Naturally, it caught them off guard.
But let's roll this back a little bit as to what I understand, being in the United States Navy, what caused the accident.
What caused the accident, from what we understood in the Navy afterwards, was that they had a boom, and you had the external tank, and you had the forward strut, Attachment points, you know, where the Challenger attached to the forward, well, forward strut on the external tank.
They had a boom that got away from them some way, somehow.
And it punctured that tank.
And they did a repair job.
I mean, they patched it.
Whatever.
And in that morning, it was very, very cold.
Because we had some relatively warm jackets on that morning, the ones that were on the Rev Watch.
And I believe the story where the O-rings on the solid fuel rockets, you know, I mean, they were frozen, so they contracted.
It wasn't a proper seal.
So on the ascension, That patch let loose, and you can see a flame, if you watch the video, where it ignited, and a flame shot out of the one side of the one rocket booster, igniting in a blue flame.
Look for a blue flame.
And it travels all the way up right behind the front attachment point of the Challenger I'm actually on the internet as you're speaking looking up fatal
events involving NASA astronauts and what you said was they were unprepared As if they had no idea that such a thing could happen.
And we are saying this happened in the year 1986.
Correct.
Okay, January 28th.
Correct.
So NASA had been in operation for, what, 20, at least 20 years at that point?
Well, quite a while.
You know, I don't buy it.
I'm sorry.
I don't type any personalities.
Yeah, I appreciate that, but I don't buy it.
I have to say that they have to be prepared for anything and everything under their circumstances of what they do for a living.
Well, you might be a little biased because you work for those folks, so I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate that, and I respect you.
However, this event, psychologically, this was a mind-blowing experience.
Even so, let's put yourself in that situation of a mind-blowing experience and you've got people in NASA who are on, I guess, on the floor, on the board, whatever you call that, watching the events and at the same time in connection In communication with your ship and telling your ship to back away.
See, there's something very, very profound going on there.
I don't understand.
You know, as far as I'm concerned, I know we started talking about the Kennedy assassination, but this is, you know, just one more...
It's a big transition, isn't it, Karen?
It's a big transition.
Yes, it is.
Well, I'm being as honest and straight up with you as I possibly can be, but...
You might say we critiqued NASA. You know, I mean, we most definitely did.
And, you know, we're trained for disasters.
You know, we look awful cute in our Cracker Jacks.
You know, you team sailors, I'm sure you have.
Aren't we cute?
However, you know, our business is warfare at sea.
You know, to destroy, to sink, to smash submarines.
You know, that was the mission of my ship.
And that's what we were trained to do.
And we see the world differently.
And if it was a Navy operation from the get-go, it probably would have had a different end result, because NASA is actually civilians.
Sure, they're rolled into the federal government, whatever, but they don't have the mindset, you know, of As a military, I can't really speak for the other branches because I don't know that much about them, but I can feel comfortable about addressing what it was like to be a member of the United States Navy.
I don't know why they dropped the ball.
I can only speculate, really.
It would have been a little different outcome, I think.
Right, but dropping the ball, I'm sorry to interrupt you here, but dropping the ball and sending a rescue vessel away and not having that investigated further, I don't know that it's ever been investigated.
I don't know if there are books written investigating suspicious aspects of this event or not.
I haven't really gone down that road.
It doesn't sound as though you have either.
Well, we're compartmentalized.
I mean, the Navy, we did our thing.
We would have done more if called upon to do.
And, you know, we stay there.
We finish the mission.
And we finished our mission.
You know, and then we were released after several days to go back up to the airport.
And Liberty Call, Liberty Call.
And a lot of the married fellows wanted to get home to their wives and their kids.
And then we go about our business.
What's the next thing?
What's our next deployment?
And then we prepare for that and do our work-ups.
And we're a tight group on an EV ship.
It might be steel, aluminum, brass, wires, but the sole of a ship is her crew.
And we did what we did, and we followed our orders.
And it's actually amazing that we got into this subject, because I had no idea I was going to go over this.
None whatsoever.
I thought we were just going to talk about, you know, my ballistics with Jack Kennedy.
But anyhow, you're getting a bonus here.
Okay.
Well, I appreciate that.
At this time, what I would suggest is that we wrap this up.
It's been going for a while.
I think that I will just put it out with the Kennedy information and the sort of questions that are now raised about the Challenger.
I know there will be investigators out there.
I am doing a quick search on the net to see if there are other people who have started to investigate it.
And it looks like there are some.
And possibly this will sort of pique some interest out there and you may get some feedback.
Do you want to give out an email address or anything like that so people can reach you if they have more information about either subject?
Well, you know, I don't know how I'm going to be feeling after I go through all this business I have to go through medically.
And I can give you my email address at a later date if that's okay.
No problem.
So if people are interested in this subject and they want to talk to Ed Lundgren, why don't you write to me, Carrie, at projectcamelot.org, and then I will forward the emails along to Ed, and then he can answer them if and when he gets a chance.
The last name is pronounced.
It's very Scotch-Irish, Carrie.
I go all the way back to Aries Lock, and that's 50 AD in Scotland.
Okay.
I had, you know, I mean, one of my...
Cousins and then an aunt and several other ones kept track.
They're the family record.
And it's pronounced lock.
Like the lock on your car, lock on your door.
And the Wren is Irish because we had to evacuate along Hadrian's Wall because we weren't doing very good against the Romans.
And they made a tactical withdrawal to the Isle of Man and then over to Ireland.
So that's my lineage, you know.
And Aries, by the way, means Mars.
So what does that mean?
We could get into a whole new topic, couldn't we?
Sure, absolutely.
Okay, at this point, you know, I'd like to wish you good luck.
If you haven't already read Richard Hoagland's book about NASA, I highly recommend it, which is called Dark Mission.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm a little bit familiar through you.
You know, Project Cam a lot about it, and I thoroughly found he's very educational.
And I really enjoy Bot Dean.
I've never met him, but you give him my respects from a former fleet sailor.
Okay.
And, yeah, he's pretty remarkable, but he's...
I'm really amazed that a retired Command Master Sergeant has such a fantastic pigtail.
How far down does that actually go, down his back?
Pretty darn far.
But anyhow, I appreciate this.
And the reason why I never really went public on any of this business about the Challenger is because respect for the families And also, too, what used to gall us was that they were blown to bits on the media and national news.
Oh, they were blown to bits.
And then speculation.
They must have been blown to bits.
Well, they weren't blown to bits.
The fallen astronauts, the seven, were laid to rest in coffins.
They had their toes in their fingers.
The ones on the bottom deck, They suffered shrapnel.
But Judy used up all her air, and she was on zero, and she had a dry head.
And if you go on the Internet, you might be able to get that up.
But that was all what we heard through the grapevine in the United States Navy at that time.
Again, I want to thank you, and thank you for Project Camelot, and give my respects to Bill Ryan, who, by the way, did an interview with a friend of mine, and that is Paul Helliard, former Minister of Defense.
I know Paul.
I helped him a little bit with his book, Light at the End of the Tunnel.
And I set up the interview that he did with Travis Walton.
I also know Travis.
And I've had the same type of experience, but not so profound, back in March of 75 with the Crescent Shape vehicle.
And we have quite a bit in common.
And if there's ever points where he gets down a little bit, you know, I try to cheer him up about it.
Such as, well, Travis, they didn't eat us.
So, you know, I know Travis and Paul.
Okay.
Yeah, so, yeah.
All right, well, listen, Ed, thank you very much for your testimony at this point, and possibly we can continue this when you...
When you return you feel better and I would appreciate it if you possibly would consider looking further into the Challenger information if it interests you at all.
Simply because if you were a ship on the scene and you were turned away and these astronauts could have been rescued and some could have survived then we have a whole different ballgame happening and it's just more of this sort of kind of conspiracy that has been plaguing NASA since the beginning and that there are Other very, very strong elements even happening now.
I'll give you free access to my, if I haven't already, to my Wake and Aware conference so that you can listen and I advise you to listen to Richard Hoagland's presentation on LNN and other matters because you can see in following his train of investigation that There is a lot of evasion going on by NASA on a constant basis,
and obviously it didn't start yesterday.
It started many, many years ago.
And this involves the secret space program, et cetera, et cetera.
So the rabbit hole goes very deep, and I appreciate the level at which you're trying to investigate, but I think that you could go a lot farther.
Well, thank you for that.
And also, you did an interview with Andy Basago.
Basago.
Basago.
Yeah, we have not interviewed him.
We did interview him on a TV show that is handled by True TV, and we are waiting for the release of that TV show.
It is sitting on the shelf right now.
They've gone outside of their contract and have not shown it yet, and we are still waiting for an air date.
Well, I don't get along with them.
I've had conversations with them, and I have problems with the ethics, human rights violations.
You know, we talked about timelines, and I'll be straight with the jury.
He accused me of a possible individual to interfere with the timeline.
Now, we got in a little argument over the phone, and he patted on me pretty good.
Personally, I don't hold anything against them, but we don't see eye-to-eye on Pegasus.
That's all good.
I'm sure that we could cover that at another date.
It's very important for people to compare notes and to cross-correlate information.
If you have different information, we're happy to listen to it.
Okay, yeah.
But I believe in our economy as human beings.
You know, I believe that we shouldn't be modified and we should not be enslaved.
Absolutely not.
Right.
That's my point of view.
I'm very pro-human and pro-planet.
And that's just the way I'm put together.
And Andy seems to be a little obtuse, you know, a little impersonal.
And me, I take it very seriously, you know, especially the business out there.
It's, what do you call it, Kelsey.
Human experiments, biogenetic stuff is outrageous.
Right.
It's absolutely an abomination, in my opinion.
You know, and I'm very pro-human.
And I'm going to be that way the rest of my life.
And we are royalty.
I'm convinced of that in the universe.
We are very unique.
Our species were special.
I hear you, and I agree with you, Ed.
Okay, well, thank you very much.
Like I said, I'm going to wrap this up, and I hope the recording came out.
So it's audible and understandable.
Let's reconvene at some point in the near future.
I'll be in India for a little over two weeks and I'm sure you'll be recovering.
Good luck with your surgery.
I highly recommend natural healers rather than going through the medical establishment if you could avoid it.
But I assume you're following your own...
Yeah, I'm going to have a very sore chest.
You know, so I'm going to have to have a very good pillow if I cough.
Okay.
All right.
Well, you hang in there, all right?
I will do that, Carrie, and you have a very safe trip.
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