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July 26, 2010 - Project Camelot

01:57:46

Project Camelot interviews Igor Witkowski : The Nazi Bell

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	Okay, here we go. here we go.
	Let me ask my question again.
	Bill, you've just come from experiencing the Nazi bell and whatever else was up there.
	You can take two on that, because I wasn't experiencing the Nazi bell.
	I went to take a look at the hench.
	Okay.
	Start again.
	Okay.
	You don't know what you're doing.
	You have no idea what's going on.
	Go on.
	No, that's not true.
	Stop it.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Maybe I don't like it.
	Okay.
	So, you just came back from experiencing the Henge and the surrounding area.
	What can you tell me?
	Was it spooky?
	It was a visual experience because the thing was larger than I had ever imagined it to be.
	Because on the internet you see these little tiny pictures taken with a wide-angle lens when it wasn't really so overgrown.
	And when you're underneath this thing, this is a huge, huge thing.
	It's supported on these big pillars that are far larger than a man.
	And the whole thing is a very dramatic object indeed, right in the middle of these woods.
	It took us a long time to get there because the snow is about a foot thick and there are a lot of fallen trees and branches and things.
	You've got to bushwhack your way through it.
	But in the picture it looks like it's out in the middle of an open area with cement.
	Those pictures were taken a very long time ago.
	I see.
	And now it's become overgrown?
	It's completely overgrown.
	You'd never find this thing unless you knew exactly where to live.
	So they used prisoners, though, up there.
	Isn't that true?
	This is forced labor.
	The Nazis used forced labor in many of their factories.
	And this is how come they were able to establish such an efficient industrial machine.
	Because they're working in a totalitarian environment under conditions of huge brutality.
	And if there's any residue of bad feeling in these areas, it can be easily understood because a lot of people suffered hugely in those places in ways that I don't think we can imagine these days.
	Why people come to a place like this is because we all have a fascination for our own unknown history.
	This is why Americans come to Europe.
	This is why We go to visit ancient castles.
	This is why you went to Egypt.
	It's to answer questions that we may not even have properly formulated, but there's a sense of the unknown in our own minds.
	And it's like an itch that you have to scratch, however dark it may be.
	And so there's this kind of grim fascination with...
	What is it that we're all jointly responsible for in our society, in our civilization?
	What is it that we're trying to whitewash over these days?
	And maybe there are clues here to how savage mankind can be, and it may be very valuable for us to be reminded of that, even in this day and age where life feels so comfortable, where life feels so easy, where things feel so safe.
	Maybe that's an illusion.
	Maybe it's appropriate for us to remind ourselves about, you know, how man's inhumanity to man is always there, like a dormant volcano.
	So this is Bill Ryan from Project Camelot, and it's the 15th of October 2009.
	And I'll repeat the month again, it's October, it's not December.
	So Robert Felix from Ice Age Now would be quite interested in the strange anomalous weather that we've been experiencing here.
	This is pretty unusual stuff.
	We've got Quite a few inches of snow, maybe even up to a foot in places.
	And what you can see behind me here, over my left shoulder, is this object that has become a sort of an iconic representation for all that is not yet fully understood about the Nazi technology, the advanced technology,
	that there is a lot of evidence that is gradually being accumulated by Igor Witkowski and others, that during the Second World War the Nazis were experimenting With things that even now, 60 years later, we might not fully understand in the public domain.
	And a little later on in this video, you'll be seeing us talking with Igor in detail about the evidence that he's amassed to suggest very strongly to many other researchers that the Nazis were doing something very, very strange, and that this project here, which has become known as the Nazi Bell, May well have been the most top secret of all their top secret projects.
	And we've just been battling our way through the woods in the snow, as you have seen.
	And the first thing that struck me is that this structure here is enormous.
	I've seen photographs of it on the internet, as many of you watching this video will have done also.
	And I had not been prepared for something that was quite this large.
	We'll be talking with Igor later about what this was.
	It bears some strong resemblance to water towers, but Igor has done a lot of research in this area, and we don't actually know for sure what it was used for.
	It's not the only piece of evidence at all which suggests the reality of these experiments that the Nazis were doing.
	It's interesting, and it's visible, and as you can see here, it's pretty dramatic.
	but actually the core, the solid core of the evidence that suggests the reality of what the Nazis were doing actually lies elsewhere.
	They shut these people in the mountain and they killed them with a chemical weapon before they closed the mountain door so that they couldn't escape even if they were able to crawl through the tunnels or something of that nature.
	So it's really quite a dark scenario.
	The whole area feels dark.
	I mean, it felt dark since we arrived.
	I don't think it's my imagination that the dark, even though in the darker it feels.
	I actually know if it comes out any better in this.
	Of course, we can't read and publish, but apparently they put up a plaque in 1994.
	So it's not all that long ago.
	OK, so this is Bill Ryan with Kerry Cassidy, and this is the 15th of October 2009, and we are...
	What are you trying to say?
	Start again and say Project Camelot.
	Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot.
	Okay, did I not say that?
	No, you didn't.
	Okay, all right.
	Go ahead.
	Start again.
	This is Bill Ryan here with Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot and it's the 15th of October 2009 and we've just come in from traipsing around in the deep snow to my amazement on the 15th of October.
	We shouldn't be having weather like this but for some reason we do.
	And it's my personal delight and ours, I think, to be with Igor Witkowski, who is a Polish researcher.
	He speaks excellent English and he's written a very wonderful book, the English title of which would be The Truth About the Wunderwaffer.
	And of course, that's a reference to the Luftwaffe, which is the German Air Force.
	And he is a military historian and a researcher, and a little bit of a modern archaeologist, I would say, because what we've just been doing this morning is looking at some ruins and relics of some very interesting structures in the woods that may or may not have something to do with the fabled Nazi bell, as it's become known.
	And in this interview, I'm going to talk with Igor about his research, his interest in this topic, the conclusions that he's drawn, some of the other things that he would like to tell us about, which we don't have the opportunity to visit or check out in person.
	And Igor, welcome.
	My pleasure.
	And for the benefit of the people who are not familiar with research, Can you give a little introduction to yourself?
	How come you came to be interested in this topic?
	And you're a pioneer, to some degree, of studying the possibility, in your view, I believe, the strong possibility of advanced Nazi technology that most people do not recognize ever existed.
	When you first came across the bell, was that in written documentation or was that in witness testimony?
	And was it called the bell?
	The German, I think, is called Die Glocke.
	Yes, the Germans called it There was interrogation protocols of two Germans involved in the evacuation of the bell, and there was no explanation what this device could be.
	It was not the bell, but it referred actually to the external appearance, because it resembled a bell to a large extent, being around ten feet high, three meters, and one and a half To unravel what it could be.
	And what evidence were you working with?
	You knew that there was something called the bell that was important enough to be part of a strategic evacuation at the close of the war, right?
	Yes.
	And what you were doing then was you were putting together a puzzle from pieces of information that you collected.
	It started off with the interrogation protocols, which you just mentioned.
	And there was something called the Bell, but you didn't know what it was.
	It was evidently important enough to be evacuated as part of a major strategic evacuation, I understand it, towards the end of the war.
	Where did you go from there?
	Exactly.
	And it was stated in the original materials that it was the most secret research project of the Third Reich carried out during the entire war.
	And that was so amazing, so unusual, that first and foremost I tried to verify such a claim.
	Was it Confirming that such a project, which was officially codenamed Kriegsenscheidend, which means decisive for the war, that such a project did exist, in fact.
	And itself, it's a breakthrough, in my opinion, because nevertheless, it doesn't I don't know if I'm fighting to weapons at all.
	Okay.
	Now, if this project was labelled as Kriegsencheiden, decisive for the war, but obviously it wasn't decisive for the war because of the turn of events in history that we all know, this implied that this research project, if that's what it was, was incomplete in some way.
	way.
	They made some progress but they never finished what it was that they intended to start.
	Yes, it does seem so that they didn't manage to finish I mean, the Germans didn't finish the project.
	But such a classification as decisive for the war had to be based on certain science.
	And that was the most fascinating, encouraging element of this puzzle.
	It had to be something that could change the course of war.
	And I was trying to, based on my previous experience of military journalist and historian, I was trying to develop this Very
	strange, very unusual.
	It was frankly saying that when I heard about it What
	was it that led you to understand that the physical evidence for the bell was going to be in this particular location?
	Because you came here and then you found a whole lot of other stuff, didn't you?
	Exactly.
	Exactly, that was the case and there were some geographical names in these original German documents, I mean, interrogation protocols of these Germans.
	And among them, this area has been mentioned around Riese, which is the underground, giant underground factory.
	And there was also a mention that a mine that has been Turn over into a military research facility that this mine was used for this research from December 1944, if I remember correctly.
	and first of all I started to look for a mine which would be in the vicinity of the Waldenburg town which is nearby and I have found out that there is just only one mine in that area
	and indeed it has been handed over to the military for military research and it bears all the marks of such a complex and in the process then of coming here to check all that out then you found this device which or this structure which has become known as the hinge I think, was that...
	Your term for it, or was that invented by Nick Cook, who was the first Westerner, or the first guy from America, let's say, to come and check out this story based on the publication of your book, The Henge.
	Where did that come from, and what's all that about?
	I wrote about it as a It has never been mentioned in the original documents.
	It's only my guess that it might have been used for such purposes.
	It's based on certain similarity to the description of the testing environment of the bell.
	that it has been tested in a chamber, underground chamber, filled with water to some level, to certain level, in a place resembling a pool lined up with ceramic tiles and so on. in a place resembling a pool lined up with ceramic
	So when I saw the pool around the hedge, I just thought that it might have been used as a test trick for such research, but it's just a guess.
	The hinge, in fact, is not any proof of anything.
	And probably it wasn't used for the Germans, but on the other hand, it doesn't resemble any civilian construction as well.
	Yes.
	We looked at that this morning, and I must admit, I was really struck by how enormous this structure is.
	It's much, much larger than the measurements of the bell, which you've just described.
	And if it is a test rig, it's an enormous test rig.
	Yes.
	Because I was rightly Unofficially.
	And the first, you know, similarity or analogy that I saw was that it resembled such a circular test trick.
	Therefore, I was, it has just brought to my mind the idea that it might have been such a test construction.
	So are you saying the bottom photograph is the flytrap and the top is the hinge?
	The bottom photograph is the actual modern test trick, used actually to test helicopters here.
	Helicopters?
	Yes, but it refers to any objects of taking off and landing vertically.
	It's the same principle.
	Wow.
	And that was the analogy that...
	It does look...
	It looks incredibly like it.
	That struck me, and I was trying to explain it.
	Okay.
	And now, what is your current theory?
	Just to summarise all of this, because I know this is a complicated subject, but to summarise this, and also for people who are seeing this before our interview with Joseph Farrell...
	Joseph Farrell went into this in quite some detail on record with us.
	And to some degree we can refer viewers to this video to that one.
	But what is your personal theory about exactly what they may have been doing?
	Evidently, on the basis of the original descriptions, the bell was a kind of a plasma accelerator.
	Namely, there was a high voltage and high intensity electric discharge inside.
	inside such a...
	there were discs or drums inside which
	which were spinned in opposite directions, on the same axis, and inside of them there was some electric discharge of high voltage, around a million volts, as later on it came out And
	various strange effects.
	And what I managed to relate it to is that...
	Sorry, I will say it again, okay?
	From some moment...
	It appears that spinning with very high speeds and in this case the analogy to certain modern research and physics is such
	that in such a device one can achieve the speeds of the order of 10% of the speed of sound the speeds of the ions, yes 10% of the speed of light Yes, in the Sandia Laboratories in New Mexico, such a research has been carried out.
	But did you mean 10% of the speed of sound or light?
	10% of the speed of light.
	I see.
	Okay.
	Could you say that sentence again?
	Yes.
	It seems quite clearly that the bell was a kind of a plasma accelerator.
	Plasma, actually, mercuric ions, to very high speeds, and I could make a connection with modern such experiments, in which enormous velocities are achieved,
	at the order of 10% of the speed of light, and therefore it created the bell, created two And generating very strong magnetic fields, among other things.
	And recently new documents have surfaced, saying that original German documents, saying that in one of the institutions affiliated with this research saying that in one of the institutions affiliated with this research project, namely the Research Institute of the AG Consortium, such a research has been in fact carried out during the such a research has been in fact carried
	There is a clear link to gravity.
	And, namely, it has been written in the And they,
	among other things, they measured the velocity of the propagation of gravity and other things.
	Also, it has been confirmed in a document that they observed very strange physical effects, such as decaying of structures, decaying Such a connection can be made.
	Further on, I was able to connect it exactly or develop this thread relating to gravity, develop this aspect, gravitational aspect of this device.
	One indication that Bell was related to gravity research was the document from the American archives, from the paperclip files, saying that there was a link between a certain project carried out in the AG Research Institute, which participated in this project.
	The other indication that it was gravity-related comes from the documents relating to pre-war activity of a scientist named Professor Walter Gerlach,
	who was one of the leading scientists of the Church, by the way, and he He tried to make such a link before the war.
	he carried out experiments with Mercury and there are scientific publications papers about it, and it can be verified.
	And all these, all such elements created a certain comprehensive picture saying that the bell was generating a very peculiar special kind of vortices, which display gravitational physical effects. which display gravitational physical effects.
	Such vortices are called solitons.
	It's a kind of vortex which is isolated from external fields generally.
	First and foremost, the magnetic field in such a vortex is isolated from external magnetic or electromagnetic fields.
	It's completely isolated.
	It's like with superconductors or super liquidity.
	And they actually made such a, were making such a, such a connections.
	And it is known.
	And And such a vortex should have generated Only on theoretical predictions based on Einstein's theory.
	but I'm not aware of any specific experiment of the same kind that would test the same circumstances or the same situation which the Baron was testing.
	I'm not aware of such an experiment, but what I can say is that there is a lot of theoretical predictions presently which say that it should generate gravitational, such a plasma but what I can say is that there is a lot of theoretical predictions presently And Let me show you something.
	There are entire books exploring these subjects.
	It's a project of gravity-related plasma research.
	And I didn't take this book actually with me.
	Sorry, may I? Yes, of course, of course.
	Because it's substance she is.
	Of course.
	I don't remember what it is.
	Yeah, there is a cover of the book.
	I will say it again.
	Actually, there is a lot of...
	No, once again...
	I didn't manage to find any description of a modern experiment of exactly the same kind that was hurried out in the Bell or by the Bell, but there is a lot of theoretical predictions by scientists which say that such a vortices, named solitons, should generate a Antigravitational fields.
	And there is a cover here of one of such books, which is dedicated to this problem.
	The problem is however such that these are only theoretical predictions.
	Nobody has made or reproduced such a device and tried to check it out.
	And it's a certain quite interesting What the Germans were trying to do with the bow was to explore quantum approach to gravity.
	Because if you have ions spinning, moving, generating fields, it's very hard to predict or calculate gravitational effect of quantum phenomena.
	It's virtually impossible.
	And that's the reason why it's on a margin, this entire field.
	The floor is on the margin of the modern physics, because it doesn't fit.
	One should have a quantum theory of gravity.
	There is a confirmation in modern physics, in modern science, that the German approach that I have described relating to the Bell makes sense.
	But it's very difficult, if not almost impossible, to calculate precisely any form Generated as a by-product of What
	the Germans represented.
	Excuse me.
	No, that's it about it.
	Okay, but what are you saying this anti-gravitational field that might be created within the bell-like structure or the henge structure, are you saying this would allow, say, if it wasn't a helicopter, let's say even a disk to levitate?
	Is that what they might have been doing, levitating?
	The problem with the bell is, among others, such that clearly it was, or was supposed to be, a part of something larger.
	And I just don't know the part of word or As far as the henge is concerned, it was my free assumption that there might have been something larger, some flying object, of which the bell was a part.
	But I really don't know that.
	Many people watching this video will be familiar with the research that's been done through documents and photographs, some of which look to me to be pretty real, of German flying discs in, I think it's the Hornabue series.
	Was it you who brought these to public attention or was that another research?
	Because this is something maybe where we can make a connection.
	I didn't want to connect this story What I did is generally based on verifiable facts mostly and makes sense and It can be connected to modern physics and so on.
	So I just didn't want to, you know, immerse myself into such hazy stories like the Nazi UFO. I admit such a possibility that the Bell could have been part of some larger flying object.
	But I didn't write about it because I just don't know it and I cannot check it out.
	Okay, now, as a military historian, particularly interested in what the Nazis may have been doing, you must have been interested to check out the information from other researchers who produced photographs, and I think documents with what look like blueprints.
	Are those photographs and documents authentic, or do you just not know?
	Why is it that that doesn't I feel like compelling evidence to you, because it looks very dramatic.
	I'm not sure if the so-called blueprints of the Nazi UFOs look genuine.
	I just cannot check it out, because I I don't know that.
	But you're saying you found this henge structure and it was painted with camouflage.
	Isn't this true?
	Yes.
	The so-called henge looks like a finished structure.
	In the case of supporting Which is generally filled with very hot water vapor.
	And such green camouflage paint on the plaster, it wouldn't make sense, just because, anyway, it would be hidden inside of a larger structure.
	So, it just didn't seem to me to be part of such In fact, suggesting that it wasn't to be a supporting structure for a cooling tower is that there is no foundation underneath the hedge to support something that large,
	because it would have to be some One question that arose in my mind when I was trying to research or investigate the physical aspect of the bell was that the question whether it was in Germany in the Third Reich any physical theory that would allow to perceive And
	to my amazement, I have found one.
	There was a German professor named Pascual Jordan, who has developed such a theory during the war and still is almost unknown, but it was the first physical He's specializing in this field.
	And for him it also makes sense.
	So it's not any pure fantasy or something.
	It's a real scientific challenge to this day.
	Sure.
	I must say what interests me about this is that If we take that sort of logical line of deduction which you've been presenting, that there seem to be an experimenting with some advanced, practical, technical way of creating an anti-gravity effect, it really does look like that.
	And if this was a war-decisive technology, the next stage in the logic is that they were trying to get something to fly in an advanced means of flying propulsion.
	And so I can't help then but take that logic to the fact that they were trying to get something to fly that might have been a disc-shaped object, and a disc-shaped object is perfect to have something rotating inside, some rotating plasma effect.
	It does seem to fit with some of these stories, rumors, photographs, documents that we've seen showing the apparent existence of a very primitive sort of flying disc.
	But it just interests me that you don't feel that you can go there because there's no evidence.
	I mean, those photographs look real to me.
	Yes, but looking at such photographs of the so-called Nazi UFOs wouldn't contribute to my research at all, because they don't convey any substantial information, and it wouldn't, you know, there is nothing, there is no entry to any new field in this way.
	Okay.
	You said a very interesting and good thing, that connecting this with the world decisive Now, just looking again at the fact that we know that this was labelled as a war-decisive project, and it seems to have had something to do with anti-gravity effects.
	At that time, there were some very cutting-edge Physics involved, there's some very smart people involved in this project, and clearly the Nazis put a lot of resources behind this and labelled it at the highest level of secrecy they had.
	What is your personal idea about what this could have been used for?
	It might have been used as a part of strategic weapons, namely as an element of the propulsion system.
	And a scientist working with me on this, as a consultant, has once said that if they would master such a technology, indeed it would be a greater breakthrough than construct, than building a nuclear weapon,
	because it would be opening of the entire because it would be opening of the entire new area of physics, field of physics, and it would allow them to make a weapon carrying chemical and nuclear warheads, and it would allow them to make a weapon carrying chemical and nuclear warheads, as against the V2. There was no defense, effectively.
	And it would allow them, really, to conquer the world.
	And I believe that the war would be over One may say also that the Germans didn't have nuclear weapons to exploit such a breakthrough, but they also had chemical weapons,
	and they were frankly saying much more deadly and lethal, it was That they really could inflict major losses within a week or within a couple of days.
	And such a breakthrough certainly would be decisive for the world.
	So, therefore, also from this point of view, it makes sense.
	Now, I have to say that I don't understand how the anti-gravity How does that link up with the delivery system?
	If it's not a UFO, what is it?
	Such a breakthrough in physics, in mastering gravity, would enable the Germans to make a kind of platform, object, flying object, Against which there would be no defense, which would be able to reach any corner of the world and deliver the most destructive, lethal weapons that they had.
	Perhaps the Germans didn't have the nuclear weapons, but they also had a very destructive chemical arsenal, incomparable in every respect with the Allied And such a weapon that would enable them to deliver these weapons of mass destruction to the major cities
	of the United States, for example, would certainly be decisive for the war and the losses on the Allied side would rise at such a dramatic pace that probably it would end the war. would certainly be decisive for the war and the losses
	Now, let me ask you about nuclear weapons because Joseph Farrell and I think also Jim Mars, and they're both pretty good researchers, they believe that the Nazis may have been on the verge of developing a workable nuclear weapon.
	In your opinion, is this possible?
	The Germans were much closer to manufacturing nuclear weapons There are several documents from various archives saying that,
	describing, for example, places where the nuclear weapons were actually manufactured, or revealing completely new segments of the German nuclear program.
	If there To divide various elements so that there is no, I would say, horizontal connection between them.
	And they don't know about each other.
	I have personally recovered many such documents saying that the German nuclear program was These facilities were located in the so-called Later Eastern Zone.
	Therefore, the Allied, the intelligence services of the Western Allies didn't have any access to them.
	They were located here, in the Lower Silesia, in the Czech Republic, which was nicknamed by Hitler himself as The Western researchers never had any idea about it.
	Apart from the valley with the hench, there is the Riese vicinity, which was supposed to be the second largest underground armament complex of the Third Reich.
	And we, in fact, are in the middle of it.
	I mean, very close to it.
	And it was A lovely line devoted to the project of the Bell.
	Therefore, one may draw a conclusion that the Bell was supposed to be part of a larger weapon that was supposed to be produced here, manufactured here.
	And Holtan de Riese was supposed to be the second largest underground facility in the Terchai.
	It's a small fragment of a much larger complex.
	I have recovered documents about it, signed by Kammler, by General Kammler himself, which says that the Riese was part of, as they called it,
	S3 Special Construction War.
	And it could have been some equivalent of the American Manhattan Project, because there was a connection between the means of carrying systems for the weapons of mass destruction, Perhaps involving the bell and the weapons of mass destruction themselves.
	One of the prisoners working here has mentioned that there was a clear connection between this vicinity and the chemical arsenal.
	On the other hand, there is a scientist researcher who worked for the government and in the early 60s Some radioactive substances.
	I could personally mention a couple of names of people who died because of the radioactivity here.
	When you say here, where exactly do you mean?
	Could you show us on the map what you're talking about?
	Yeah, I can show you on the map.
	This is the map showing the mountain massive in which the Riese complex has been excavated.
	And there are specific facilities such as here, here, underground facilities, here, here, a lot of them around the entire massive.
	And along with that, there was also, you know, infrastructure for such a construction site, such as sightings of narrow gauch railway here, sub camps of the concentration camps, barracks of the SS. In various places around, there were, there was around 40,000 people, 40-50,000 people working on it.
	For a couple of years.
	Where was the Henge in reference to this?
	The Henge in reference to this is some five kilometers to the south.
	It's out of the map.
	Rize, the underground facility, is inside of the mountain massive, under the entire mountain massive.
	And on the other side of this massive, There was a set of bunkers, much like near the hedge itself, only that they were located mostly underground and camouflaged,
	and in one of such And all of them died of leukemia and cancer and such things.
	And I knew one of them.
	And I can say that it's just a fact.
	Is that substance, or is it possible that that substance is what has been referred to in documents, and you may need to remind me here, it's called Zerum 525, I think.
	Have I got that right?
	I know people...
	That were killed.
	I'm only not sure what killed them, but because they died of leukemia, various forms of cancer, it seems likely to me.
	they described it when they lived here, they described the substance as something resembling mercury, only that it was something jelly-like, not entirely liquid, such a strange state of matter.
	And it reminded me of the substance that was supposedly placed inside the bell, in the core of the bell, not in the cylinders that were pinned, which was codenamed Serum Orxerum 525. which was codenamed Serum Orxerum 525.
	And it just, from the description, it just seemed something very similar, but I'm not sure because I didn't see it.
	Did they say what color it was?
	They didn't.
	Okay.
	They didn't.
	What really interests me about this, because this is all a big detective story that you're putting together here, is that it was the single most, it was the largest SS project in the war, and yet we know almost nothing about it.
	I mean, that's really quite a big clue in itself as to its importance, and as you said, the level of secrecy, like the Nazi equivalent to the Manhattan Project.
	That's fascinating.
	Yes, it is indeed fascinating, but we should bear in mind that the SS had certain advantages for them, namely that they had, to a large extent, that they had their own financing.
	They didn't have to report to any external institutions outside, I mean, outside the empire.
	The most significant advantage of the SS from the We actually raised a concentration camp, Grossrazen, here nearby.
	And such prisoners were called by them as Geheimnissträger, which means somebody who is carrying, literally, the secret.
	Which means that...
	They were connected with the secret forever and ever and ever.
	They couldn't come out and say and tell anybody else outside.
	But were there any survivors?
	Yes, it's a very good question.
	None of the over 20,000 prisoners working in the finished central section of the Rize has survived.
	One of the prisoners of the Gross Rosen, who was a writer in the camp, has testified after the war to the Special Commission that every day he has reported the number of prisoners working,
	living every day to the people That's really sinister, isn't it?
	Yes, and probably they have What you're really saying here then, which is something that many people in the modern world might not fully understand,
	is that the SS, they had their own financing, they had their own resources, they had their own workforce, they were insulated from the rest of the Nazi party and basically they could do anything they wanted to and they had really no controls over them whatsoever, is that right?
	That's exactly true, because the Third Reich has occupied many countries and they used various or To keep something secret, especially involving tens of thousands of people.
	And the SS was the only solution to such a problem, because they could solve this.
	Okay, yeah, I understand.
	Okay, but...
	Okay, I think...
	Where were these...
	You say there was a camp nearby here?
	Yes, the gross rose in concentration camp.
	I see.
	And is it known, is the location known?
	The location is known, but the only part that was left was, he said, For the barracks, because it wasn't a concentration camp like Auschwitz, for example, which was a mass extermination camp.
	It was, in this case, the camp, Grosshausen, was really only a distribution center for the workforce.
	And the prisoners didn't stay there for long.
	They could stay for a week or something, but not for long.
	And the entire workforce...
	Attached to specific undertakings.
	It's like a temporary holding camp.
	Yes, just a distribution center.
	But where were the prisoners kept?
	They were kept in wooden barracks mostly.
	Some of them lived underground in the tunnels.
	There is a difference between...
	The parts of the Rize that we know today, which contribute to some 80,000 cubic meters on ground, and German data from the time of the war, when the armament minister for According to some report from September of 1944,
	that over 220,000 cubic meters was already made underground, so there is some 150,000 cubic meters missing, and it's certainly, I mean, everything indicates that it's the central Would that have been part of the massive which holds the finished part where the prisoners were working on something,
	manufacturing something already before the end of the war.
	And probably they have been...
	the entrances have been blasted off and they have been closed underground.
	Would that have been part of the strategic evacuation?
	Yes, pretty much.
	Probably the same office of the Reiss Central Security Office was dealing with that.
	And evacuations were just an extension of such measures aimed at securing crucial potential for the population.
	When you're traveling here in the car, you used a term that I found most interesting, which was strategic evacuation.
	And that indicated to me that this process of evacuating to wherever they evacuated to, and whatever they evacuated, and whoever they evacuated, After the war was something that was carefully planned.
	It was like a strategic withdrawal.
	It wasn't just everyone running for the door.
	It was something that was a carefully coordinated military plan.
	Now, when do you think that plan was established?
	How soon before the formal end of the war did they start to think, you know what?
	We're not going to make this through as we planned.
	We're going to have to go to Plan B. And what do you think that Plan B was?
	This is something that's hugely interesting.
	And of course, just to continue that question, for some people who suspect that many of the key Nazis, and maybe much of the technology, survived the war and was exported elsewhere, this is a really important question.
	The Germans were forced initially by the Allied air raids.
	To develop a set of operations aimed at securing the most crucial potential.
	Initially, just to prevent it from being destroyed by the Allied bombs.
	But the extension of these operations were the so-called strategic evacuations, aimed at evacuating the most crucial resources, such as scientific heritage of the Third Reich and so on.
	Abroad, there was a set of deals signed with Japan and with Argentina, and that was to facilitate such evacuations, and in fact everything indicates that the Bell Project was evacuated to Argentina and was continued for some time.
	And continuity, several, I mean not one, but several people from the project continued to work in Argentina and they also mentioned later on about gravitational aspect of the plasma physics and so on.
	So who were these people that were running this whole part of the SS Evacuation.
	Well, not just the evacuation, but also the RISA facility.
	Who were these people?
	The institution responsible for this project involving RISA and the larger vicinity, which was codenamed S3, Special Construction Undertaking S3, was the Kamler's office.
	It was called Undertakings related to armament production, the most state of the world, involving the most state-of-the-art weapons.
	Sorry about that.
	Okay, but so it was Himmler, you're saying?
	Yes, the SS generally.
	Yeah, but who particularly from the SS, when you say they also continued their work in South America, who are we talking about?
	The SS was...
	Coordinating the research, the project as such, but wasn't involved in the research.
	There were no SS scientists in it.
	Who was involved?
	Do we know the names of anything?
	Yes, we do.
	The most important was Professor Walter Gerla, who was responsible for the physical aspect of this project.
	The project was codenamed Chronos slash Laternen Trigger.
	The one called name referred to the physical aspect of it, the other one referred to medical or biological aspect.
	It's not certain which one referred to which one.
	But the project was called Chronos.
	Which means time.
	It doesn't mean time exactly.
	It means a Greek god.
	Yes, it's a god.
	Who gave people something.
	I don't remember now, but it's a very interesting legend about it.
	I mean, as far as Greek mythology is concerned, it's not time as such.
	It's interesting, worth checking it out.
	The most important person was Professor Walter Gerlach in this project, who was responsible for the physical aspect of it.
	He researched on the spin Connected with the so-called isolated vortices, which means solitons.
	It's all verified, published, and so on.
	The other person was SS Gruppenführer Ernst Robert Gravitz.
	He was the only SS scientist in the team, who was responsible for the medical and biological effects aspect of this project, and he was chief of the Institute of Hygiene of the Vafin SS.
	But he committed suicide before the end of the world.
	What about Wernher von Braun?
	There is no indication saying that Wernher von Braun or all the rocket scientists were involved in this project.
	Except for one.
	There is one whose name was Kurt Debus, who was responsible for the High-voltage equipment related to the bow.
	And he worked later for NASA. He was one of the directors of NASA. Joseph Farrell showed us some interesting photographs of Kurt Debus and Werner von Braun together at NASA, which is an interesting question.
	This remains unanswered.
	Working on rocket, not just NASA, but working in Florida on a rocket.
	Debus was one of the few, the only one scientist that was recruited from Penemind.
	And that's probably why he has been employed by the NASA after the war, becoming one of its directors.
	There is no indication at all, I mean, at least I didn't found any, saying that this Researched by Sandhya Laborator But
	the implication of what you're saying is that if the personnel and resources and the Bell itself were evacuated maybe to Argentina, then presumably that would have been with the intention of the project being continued there.
	What happened to that?
	The continuation of the project in Argentina took place until the fall of the The entire research team has been disbanded.
	The main scientist, which was Ronald Richter, started fearing about his life, and as far as I know, he has escaped from Argentina.
	So it was continued, but to some extent.
	I'm not sure if it was finished.
	When I was He suggested to me clearly that it's still a subject of secrecy and he has no access to such documents.
	But this is something which we haven't heard about in this detail.
	That's fascinating.
	So you're saying that it is known that there is a research facility in Argentina that was devoted to this Nazi science and you've got access into some of those details?
	Yes, there is a set of documents pertaining There was a reference in these documents,
	connection between plasma physics and gravity, and the same connection appears later on in the Argentine context.
	But it was discontinued for unclear reasons.
	Okay, but what are you saying in terms of the evacuation committee, the relationship between the evacuation committee and these scientists who are working here?
	Wasn't there some relationship between the SS who were in charge of the evacuation and the scientists who were working on the project here?
	There was no such a direct relation, because a different body was responsible for the evacuation, a different institution was responsible for the evacuation, and a different one coordinated the research itself here.
	So there is no connection between the evacuation personnel from the evacuation and the scientists.
	No direct connection.
	But weren't the scientists evacuated?
	Some of the scientists were evacuated, but not all of them.
	Two went up in Argentina, ended up in Argentina, which is Richter.
	There was some engineer from the AG, associated with the AG Research Institute, named Hellman, who continued the work out there in Argentina.
	But I don't remember all the details.
	Okay, and where are the other scientists?
	Where did the other scientists go, not to Argentina?
	Frankly saying, I know only about three, four or five The number has to be higher, but I know just about a few of them.
	And the most significant, Professor Walter Gerlach stayed in Germany after the war, but he never, not only returned to what he was doing during the war, but he never published any scientific publications.
	The same subjects in which he was involved before the war, for example.
	He just completely detached himself from this field of physics.
	What about the other four?
	Debus was employed by NASA in the United States, although he was an SS officer, and that ardent one.
	And he never I'm interested as well to go back to such subjects, because one can imagine that it involved possible accusations about experiments on humans,
	or wanting to, you know, wipe out some significant part of the population of the One of the scientists, professor and SS Gruppenfuhr, Ernst Gravitz, committed suicide before the end of the war, so this trade has disconnected.
	And the other ones, I don't know details about the fates.
	What happened to Hans Kamler?
	And maybe just tell us a little bit about who Hans Kamler was and why he was such an important figure.
	Because a very Secret and most state-of-the-art armament projects in the hands of one man, who was SS General Hans Kamler, who was a very skilled organizer and very ruthless as well.
	But he was, in a way, a materialization of a certain trend of SS grasping Even more fields of the German economy.
	And among other things, Kamler has controlled all the production of jet fighters, of jet airplanes, of the rocket missiles, and various other fields.
	And he became a very influential person in the third Yes, this appeared in the occupied Czech territories and there is now never any I
	don't know, but...
	So he was instrumental, though you're saying that he was basically running, for all intents and purposes, this Risa facility or complex or whatever you want to call it.
	Yes, he was instrumental in controlling not only the Riza and the larger S3 undertaking, but virtually all the most state-of-the-art and crucial armament projects of the Third but virtually all the most state-of-the-art and crucial armament projects of the Third Reich by the end And then he has vanished.
	He just disappeared somewhere in the occupied Czech territories.
	And there was never any trace of him after the war.
	Was there ever any indication that Hitler visited the Raisa?
	There are rumors that he did.
	And nearby there was an underground headquarters, Hitler's headquarters, under construction.
	But personally, I believe that he didn't visit it.
	Because it would attract attention of the enemies to this place, which was still almost unknown, except for the Russians, which were very well-oriented in this business.
	What do you mean the Russians were well-oriented in this business?
	Several years ago, I had talked with a man who was an employee of the Academy of General Staff in Poland.
	And he told me about who coordinated, for example, the scientific aspect of the intelligence reconnaissance of this area on the Russian side.
	And he has mentioned a certain person, who Lev Andreevich Arcemovich, academician which And as later I have checked out, he was specializing in thermonuclear physics and plasma physics and exactly was more or less the equivalent of Gerla.
	So they had to have a pretty good and clear idea about what was going on here, contrary to the Western Allies.
	This sounds like there must have been some kind of on the ground relationship between the Russians and the Germans during that time.
	Yes, it's a very interesting question and such a relationship can be traced back to the pre-war period in a very strange and amazing way, namely that professor Walter Gerlach was trying to The Soviet Nobel Prize winner,
	Peter Kapica, who was of Polish origin by the way, his parents were Polish, and because Kapica has developed theory describing such a vortices before the war.
	It pertained to so-called superfluidity, but the description is the same because this are almost the same kinds of vortices.
	So there was such a cooperation.
	Probably Kapica, or the Soviet partner of Gerlach, wasn't aware of what was the purpose of that.
	Obviously, it was before the beginning of the war with the Soviet Union.
	But there are certain connections between the Tertracht and the Soviet Union in this respect.
	Let me ask you a question which goes into a different area here.
	I'm still really interested in the Argentina connection, and how you say that, as far as you can tell, that activity ceased round about the breakup of the Perón administration.
	But surely after the war, the Americans would have been very aware of what was happening in Argentina.
	Their intelligence capacity would have informed them of what they were doing.
	Surely the Americans knew about all of this?
	I'm not sure if the Americans knew this, because just an example that gives some idea.
	There was a very ambitious effort by the Israeli Special Services to kill the Nazi war criminals hiding in Argentina after the war.
	And it all failed.
	And as far as I know from the materials that I saw, Commonly known, only that it may not be known in the UK or the United States, but it's based on the materials published in Poland.
	It seems that they didn't even manage to work out how the Nazi organizations work in Argentina.
	They didn't really have an idea.
	That's my impression.
	So I'm not really sure They were all professionals and it was pre-arranged There
	must have been something in it for Argentina as a state.
	There must have been some quid pro quo, some exchange for Argentina, for them to have taken this risk of harboring all of this activity, these resources, these scientists, this technology.
	Yes.
	There was a kind of a deal between Which they tried to develop later on.
	They got a lot of money from the capitals of the Nazi Party, of the SS, of the Third Reich as a whole.
	In exchange, providing security and some kind of hideout for these people.
	It was kind of a deal.
	And mutually beneficial.
	But didn't you say that there were companies that developed a relationship, I think maybe you even said, even before the war with the Germans, with Argentine companies, because there were materials in Argentina that they were bringing and shipping over here for use, even perhaps in the Reisa area?
	Always, Germany maintained a very high level industrial links with Argentina, or commercial links, even before the war.
	And because there is, that's one of the reasons, because there is a very high German minority there.
	It may not be very numerous.
	Always was influential.
	And these personal connections, or connections between institutions, for example Perron was educated in a German military academy.
	Later on he served as an Argentine military attaché in Berlin.
	And so they didn't really have to look far for such a connection.
	It was natural.
	And the natural extension of Argentina as a neutral country has provided pressures for the war raw materials for the Third Reich.
	And later on the same connections, the same links, the same organizational infrastructure was used to evacuate certain things to Argentina.
	So there was a fluent transition from one stage to another.
	But weren't there also certain raw materials that are special?
	In other words, they can't be found in Europe that you said that Germany was getting from Argentina.
	Yes, Argentina was a kind of a gateway to the entire South America, from which they could obtain various precious materials, such as platinum, such as tungsten, a whole lot of stuff.
	And it worked very well.
	Argentina could ship it to Spain, for example, or to Sweden.
	Even grains such as rye, food in large numbers, and it worked very well.
	What about the close proximity to Antarctica?
	Of Argentina?
	For a long time I thought that it's a kind of a fantasy that Antarctica, the Antarctic played a role in such measures.
	But once I have received a signal saying that the contrary, it was very strange.
	Because I just thought that, I just couldn't imagine the Antarctic being used for such a to build a base, for example, because there is a...
	it's not a place to live.
	There is no infrastructure, nothing at all.
	Moreover, everything is visible from the Earth.
	But apparently there was some...
	a net of supplying bases, provisional bases, out there.
	Maybe not exactly in the Antarctic, but on the islands, When you mean a signal, do you mean a clue?
	Do you mean some information?
	Do you mean something that somebody told you?
	What does that mean, a signal?
	One of the clues is that our The activity of the Special Evacuations Commander, to be exact, was coming from a German courier,
	which was contacting And he was arrested and testified, but he didn't know very much.
	Basically the only thing that he knew is that these things had been evacuated somewhere, to some place lying far in the south.
	He came from Uruguay, so one could guess that But he's only mentioned one geographical name or name of a company.
	It wasn't certain what it was.
	Name anyway.
	Boris.
	And for years One of the crucial
	persons involved in the evacuations, generally, of the evacuations of the SS, I don't know if he knew anything about the boats and so on, but one of the crucial persons on the part of the SS, as far as the evacuations were concerned too, As an agent.
	And my friend, a friend of mine calling, has managed to talk to his son.
	And his son has said that On
	the Antarctic.
	And it was only confirmation that saying that the Antarctic played some role in such an evacuation.
	I disregarded it initially because it didn't seem possible for me to establish anything of that.
	I remember that Joseph Fowell showed us some photographs of this huge Junkers six-engine plane that was known to have evacuated a lot of material to Norway, I believe it was.
	Is that right?
	Have I understood that right?
	And if so, what happened after that?
	Yes, there was a special plane, in fact, appropriated by And this plane supposedly took the, I'm not sure,
	something related to the Bell project or to the Kronos project, I'm not sure if it was the Bell itself, or just the documentations, but something related to the project, and landed in Norway, in the border base,
	in the And then, for some time, the trace has vanished.
	I mean, no plane, nothing.
	Only after many years, my co-worker from Santa America, from Uruguay, has reported to me that And supposedly the
	shipment has been moved to Argentina, evacuated to Bariloche in Argentina.
	And the plane was...
	they just got rid of the plane, leaving it and pulling it into the Uruguay River and supposedly it is still lying on the river, but I didn't check it out.
	That's a fascinating story.
	That plane could have...
	It had the range to go from Norway to Argentina, or to Uruguay, if necessary.
	It didn't have the range to go to Argentina directly, because it's around 15,000 kilometers or so from Norway.
	But it could go to Uruguay.
	And, in fact, it was one of the very few airplanes...
	Able to refuel in flight.
	That's interesting.
	I didn't know they had that technology in the war.
	But also, didn't you say that there were thousands evacuated?
	Wasn't there a number, did you say 50,000?
	Around 50,000 Germans emigrated more efficiently or inefficiently or under false names.
	To Argentina.
	That's what is estimated.
	And the question is how many of them were really evacuated in a pre-planned way.
	It is estimated at the order of 5,000 or 10%.
	It's hard to say, really.
	That's a fascinating question.
	Mystery again.
	We've got mysteries within mysteries here.
	There's so much that's still unknown, even 60 years later.
	I remember, it may not be for the record as you wish, but just a curious detail.
	I remember a documentary in which a Jew was, you know, telling his story about his emigration to South America, where he had some family, shortly after the war. where he had some family, shortly after the war.
	He wanted to go to Argentina, but they didn't let him in, obviously.
	So he took a ship to Uruguay, which is on the other side of the La Plata River, and he recalled one day in the afternoon on the ship, somebody has raised a glass of wine or something,
	and saying to somebody else by the other table that Her captain, you have killed 5,000 Jews.
	And raise the glass.
	That's amazing.
	No, it was really...
	What they were doing out there in Argentina, they knew that they are safe, and they did it pretty much openly.
	I mean, for example, one of the key persons in the In the Nazi structure, in the organization, in Bariloche, had a false name, for example.
	But when he established a company, the company had, you know, the SS runs in the name, in the log.
	So it was pretty much all.
	Yeah, there's so many...
	Very interesting.
	What is...
	I just have to ask, this mountain, you say that the entrance...
	Yes, here, you're saying that we're quite close to...
	You're saying the entrance seemed to have been bombed or closed.
	Blown up.
	Blown up.
	Because, you know, if you want to blow up an entrance tunnel, you drain holes.
	At a depth of, actually in this case, the order of two meters.
	And the explosive charge is placed at the end of that hole.
	So when it explodes, you then have pieces of rock with holes going through.
	From one side to another, you know.
	So from that you can guess that it has been, it didn't collapse naturally.
	Yeah, I understand that I've seen things like that in mine.
	I will show you that because it's a, you know, 15 minutes walk I see, but do you have any evidence, or have you gotten any evidence, that when it was closed down, when did they close it off?
	No, nothing.
	Only that piece of information from the former prisoners, from Gross Rosen.
	Very few people have survived accidentally.
	I mean, there was an evacuation, you know, in March or up in 1945.
	There were trains going from one station to another and then back because the front has shifted from unexpectedly and such things.
	And sometimes it happens that a prisoner managed to escape from such a train, you know.
	It was complete chaos at that time.
	But, as I mentioned, all those who worked in the finished part of the Riese have been Yeah.
	Their secrets died with them.
	That was the simplest method.
	The simplest method.
	These guys, it's very hard for us to understand.
	Pragmatic approach.
	Yeah, pragmatic.
	So what you're saying is, you're talking about 20,000 prisoners.
	Just over 20,000, yeah.
	Now, in terms of...
	Supposing they were driven underground for...
	It took three days.
	Because, you know, 20,000, it's a population of a small...
	You just don't...
	It's not like entering the bus, you know.
	Just going.
	It's a lot of people.
	It's a whole trains.
	You're saying it took three days.
	Are you saying...
	Supposedly.
	I knew a guy from our services who collected materials.
	He's dead.
	I collected such materials.
	And among other things, supposedly, he had such a testimony or document.
	I don't know what it was.
	But wouldn't this, I mean in a sense, I don't know what the actual numbers were for the death of the people in the various camps in Nazi Germany, but the overall numbers.
	How does this 20,000 compare, for example, to the number who died at Auschwitz and so on?
	All these prisoners, the number of all these prisoners going through the Gross Rosen concentration camp was relatively low.
	I don't know really, I don't know, but it's the order of 100,000 compared to around 300,000.
	I'm not sure.
	So it wasn't much, but you know, the combined number of prisoners going through the subcamps of the Rize was around 40 or 50 thousand.
	So 20 thousand in this respect was quite a lot.
	So generally very few people have survived who have anything to say about it.
	Very few.
	Yes.
	It's not a question of these guys going into an extermination camp.
	They were just presumably exterminated once they ceased to become useful.
	This is the expedient approach which these guys had.
	Only the project, generally, may I say?
	Yes.
	Yes, Mr. Lowe.
	Apparently the entire project was a result of a cooperation between the SS and the Luftwaffe, who had a monopoly on the Air Force, generally.
	Luftwaffe is Air Force in German.
	And the Luftwaffe wanted to create much better conditions for the prisoners.
	And according to the prisoner who worked in the technical chancellery of the Which was under supervision of the Luftwaffe and not of the SS. Which had pretty exceptional conditions.
	Exceptionally good.
	Very normal meals with milk, warm dinners.
	Unlike in the concentration camp for the SS. But supposedly it was some special commander working on something very important.
	And obviously, as one can guess, they didn't survive.
	But sometimes such exceptions had happened that the conditions were much better.
	There was also a special commando of children here used for the experiments, around 200 children.
	Supposedly.
	I can check it out, but there is a researcher specializing in such things.
	Well, that would be of special interest because the use of children or Mentally handicapped children.
	Do you know, were they autistic?
	I don't know who did.
	Because there's some new information coming forward about autism and the link between autism and being precognitive.
	In other words, seeing the future.
	I mean, there is an assumption playing a crucial role here, which I just forgot to say about him, was Professor Hubertus Struckholt,
	who was a pioneer of space medicine, and he ran an Encompassing Rize, probably the Ludwikowice, Ludwikstorff and various other places, facilities.
	One of them was the underground space research facility run by Professor Huberto Szczukor.
	He said about it in an interview for a Polish journalist in the 1960s or something, I don't He has tested some kind of...
	He said that it was a simulator of a spaceflight, but actually it was controllable.
	Namely, that when the propulsion worked very intensively or high energy, it was involved, something like that, that thing, the cabin, capsule system, whatever, I don't know, For example, and it was known that this command of children was dedicated to his research post.
	So it was assumed that they were used, these children, for experiments.
	But it cannot be certain, perhaps, for other reasons.
	He was a professor of medicine, so various things are possible.
	Okay, but Kronos, to get back to the notion of the top secret, the sort of...
	I would just recommend checking it out in the internet or something.
	Yes, but no, I'm saying that there is something to do with the idea of seeing into the future in Kronos.
	In other words...
	I believe it's the father of time or seeing forward and there's a link between the bell and anti-gravity and also being able to move or see through the future because there is a link Of course you won't be familiar probably with the looking glass, what we know of as looking glass technology that Dan Biersch talks about.
	But this is a technology in which you can see into the future.
	You know, gravity is about time-space, so there is no way to disconnect space from time and gravity from time in this respect.
	But I don't think that they would be interested in time.
	Namely, it wasn't useful in any way to save the Tentai.
	Not in any obvious way, except for the chosen name Kronos.
	One would say that it can't quite be made accidental.
	Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it, because the codenames, by definition, are misleading.
	Do you think so?
	That's a basic rule.
	An example of that is Project Paperclip.
	What does that mean?
	That's the purpose of it.
	Well, there may be misleading on the surface, and yet there may be a deeper meaning in terms of the occult.
	As I mentioned...
	Because there is often an occult significance that does have actual...
	between signs and symbols.
	It had to be related to time anyway, so it is possible, but I don't think that...
	Okay, but in terms of an anti-gravity, using anti-gravity as a propulsion system or as a method of what you called getting, in other words, if you're getting, you know, It seems that that in itself wouldn't be an efficient means.
	Because if you use anti-gravity to get something from one place to another, isn't it possible that the thing itself must dematerialize in a sense?
	No.
	To get from one place to another?
	No.
	Isn't there a sense of that?
	No.
	Because various experiments on gravity were conducted and I didn't hear about such a thing.
	No, sure.
	I would actually say that This would be pure cutting-edge research that they were doing.
	They didn't know where this was going to lead, but they knew that this was something that was unknown and therefore potentially useful, because that's the way they looked at it.
	The most striking thing for me is that they had developed theory, as I mentioned, Professor Pascual Jordan, in connection with Professor Gerlach, had developed a theory describing this on the basis of quantum physics, which could be had developed a theory describing this on the basis of quantum physics, Almost nobody knows about it.
	He was supposed to be You know,
	I don't have to add that Einstein's approach wasn't that obvious for them, for ideological reasons, that's one reason.
	And the other one, Germany was a motherland of quantum physics, and they had no reasons to believe a theory which is Well, maybe because I'm not a physicist, but is there some way you can draw some kind of parallel into...
	I mean, because you're acting as though everything needed to be very practical, and yet this in itself is a theory of matter, right?
	So, in a sense...
	The experiments that, if there was such a thing as the bell and if there were experimenting with anti-gravity, in a sense, and it was a delivery system was the end result, then what would be the method of delivery using anti-gravity?
	Would it be a craft of some kind?
	A craft of some kind.
	Would it be a craft that would, in other words, just let me finish this thought, because thinking about this mountain that you asked me to take a look at in this sort of rocket or whatever, And I'm wondering, would it be useful if the rocket were to use anti-gravity?
	In other words, to use a normal propellant to get up, but at some point...
	It wouldn't be a rocket.
	This object has been described as oblong or ball-shaped.
	And it would just fly everywhere.
	You know, one of the unresolved Aspect of this physics, of this physics, based on this theories, is such that in the documents relating to Richter, in the American paperclip files, it has been described, very strange thing, I'm not sure if it will be familiar to you or not, but a certain...
	it could stay behind this decomposing or decaying structures.
	It's a long story, I will not tell about it because it will be very long.
	But as it has been described in these documents, a certain exchange mechanism of energy has been discovered.
	And the result of that was such that apparently energy has appeared out of nothing.
	which means that it could have Any significant amount of power, except for setting it in motion.
	But such a vortex, it's also called as a ball-shaped type vortex.
	The main feature of such a thing is that it is isolated from the external...
	No, I will say it differently.
	I was talking with a plasma physicist and about vortices in plasma.
	And he was saying that, you know, generally, if you have a discharge, an electric discharge in plasma, often some vortices are generated.
	But they are visible only on ultrafast photographs, because they live for microseconds or nanoseconds or something.
	Because it's a gas, generally, which is under very high pressure, very hot.
	And it dissipates the energy, it just didn't live very long.
	But on the other hand, you have ball lightning, for example, which lives for a minute.
	Or sometimes longer.
	Or sometimes longer.
	And there is a different, completely different mechanism.
	It's not such a normal vortex as we can see normally.
	Because the fields are isolated, A different world, in itself.
	Such a bubble of closed, you know, time-space in a way.
	Because it penetrates obstacles such as glass and metal.
	And it doesn't need energy.
	It needs energy to create it.
	But once it spins, it doesn't.
	Almost.
	When compared to, you know, when you compare microsecond with a minute, you have the order of millions.
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	Yep, understood.
	Perhaps it wouldn't even need a source of energy, a significant source of energy.
	Yes, once it's created.
	Very interesting.
	Fascinating topic.
	Yeah.
	Fascinating.
	So, Igor, thank you so much.
	Not a problem.
	My pleasure.
	I have a request for you, actually, this evening, if possible.
	I know there's some beautiful new books, and I can't read a word of it, but I would love to look at some of the images.
	Oh, but it is also striking, this picture that you had.
	There is one more interesting thing, maybe not for the camera.
	Okay.
	You could turn it off.
	There is a document about Professor Struchold, the one that was a pioneer of space medicine.
	Oh, really?
	And he was taken over in paperclip.
	As I mentioned, what kind of experiments he carried out here.
	It's from American Archives, so it's in English.
	The chief of the Department of Space Medicine at Randolph Air Force Base, he said yesterday, in the field of space medicine, we are not behind anyone.
	The same things that Russians are doing with their dog, we are finding out with men.
	And that is interesting.
	You know, if you place it in a different context, it's written by Struckfeld.
	It's written by Struckfeld.
	Okay.
	They may be talking about the dog Laika.
	They didn't need to.
	Is it a dog that went into space?
	They didn't need any dog.
	Yes, the name is Laika.
	We're not behind anyone.
	Yeah.
	The Philadelphia experiment took place in what year?
	I don't know.
	I'm almost laughing about the Philadelphia experiment.
	Well, it's just that it happened after the war, though.
	No, it's before the war.
	I'll show you one more thing.
	Yeah.
	That was 41 or 42, I think.
	I'd be interested to...
	I don't know whether this...
	Are there Russians living in this part of Poland?
	No.
	Not at all.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So I'm looking...
	Now I've got an image of the map.
	Okay, go ahead.
	May I say something?
	Yep.
	There is the valley where the henge is.
	The henge is that circular place, the structure.
	And all these roads here are lined up with concrete and they lead to other objects in the entire area.
	The entire valley was transformed into a closed Area 51-like place.
	Yep.
	I've got a good image of that.
	That's the mountain massive and that's, for example, one of the underground facilities.
	You can see the pattern here.
	These are sidings of the narrow gauge railway so you have some idea about the infrastructure.
	It was pretty extensive.
	The railway, you're talking about a railway, is that a railway on top of the ground or underneath?
	On top, entering the underground facilities then.
	I see.
	Was it used originally by the mine?
	No, there was no mine.
	It's the reason.
	The mine was on the other side of the map.
	Sorry, hands shaking.
	Okay.
	Is that a special map about wartime activity?
	Is that what it is?
	Yeah.
	I saw the swastika on it, yes.
	Um, Bill?
	Yeah.
	So, maybe you, for example...
	These documents, yeah, that's...
	It's good.
	You may, you know, process it later.
	Yes.
	And this was...
	Yes.
	It's a...
	It says that there was a larger undertaking than the Riese, and that it was the largest such a project of the SS at all.
	And the document...
	Which part of it?
	Is signed by Kamler.
	Does it say Kamler?
	Yeah.
	It doesn't say, but it's just his signature.
	Okay.
	This is important stuff.
	Where it says that it's the most...
	Just a moment, okay.
	Just that little phrase.
	The document says that the Reichsführer says, which means Himmler, has ordered certain things to do, but Kammler responds that it is not possible because the office C4, because this office is completely engaged With the Sonderbaufelhaben S.J. and therefore cannot execute such a task.
	It's absorbed with all its forces, with allen kreftend, with this project and therefore cannot execute anything else.
	Okay.
	With all his forces.
	You know, when Kamlu responds that all his forces of his hobbies are engaged in something...
	Yeah, it means he's doing something that's top priority.
	Yes.
	Yes, I understand.
	Fascinating.
	And at the same time, something unknown, completely.
	Yes, yes, yeah.
	I have, it's not says that it's reset, but just a moment.
	I have such a page from, it's a, it's a book, it's called List of Codenames of German Underground Undertakings.
	Oh, that's interesting.
	Which says that the S3, S3, Encompassed the Hitler's headquarters in the East Prussia, Rieser, Riediger,
	which is a communication center for the Rieser, and for the entire area here, and Filstenstein, which was Hitler's headquarters, also within the estuary, it's some fifteen kilometers from here.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Thank you.
	Alright.
	So, thank you very much, Igor, for this fascinating testimony.
	I know that this is a research in progress.
	It continues.
	And I would really like to keep in touch with you to learn what you continue to learn as you're following this very interesting trail.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, too.

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