PBD - Patrick Bet-David - PBD Podcast | Guest: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano

Sept. 21, 2021 - PBD - Patrick Bet-David

01:50:33

PBD Podcast | Guest: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano | EP 89

FaceTime or Ask Patrick any questions on https://minnect.com/ Patrick Bet-David Podcast Episode 89. Follow Sammy "The Bull" Gravano: https://bit.ly/2M9yzpG Check out the official merchandise here: https://store.mafiastatesofamerica.com Download the podcasts on all your favorite platforms https://bit.ly/3sFAW4N Watch Mafia States of America official Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yx8HEFrKg8 Gravano, Franzese, Giuliani Tell All in this exclusive video series narrated by Chazz Palminteri and hosted by Patrick Bet-David. Text: PODCAST to 310.340.1132 to get added to the distribution list The Bet-David Podcast discusses current events, trending topics, and politics as they relate to life and business. Stay tuned for new episodes and guest appearances. Connect with Patrick on social media: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/patrickbetdavid/ Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/patrickbetdavid Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PatrickBetDavid.Valuetainment About the host: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of a financial services firm and the creator of Valuetainment, the #1 YouTube channel for entrepreneurship with more than 3 million subscribers. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal bestseller Your Next Five Moves (Simon & Schuster) and a keynote speaker. To reach the Valuetainment team you can email: info@valuetainment.com Want Patrick on your podcast? - http://bit.ly/329MMGB #PBDPodcast Follow the guests: Gerard Michaels: https://bit.ly/3fMja9z Adam Sosnick: https://bit.ly/2PqllTj #MafiaStatesOfAmerica #PBDPodcast 00:00 - start 1:40 – Mafia States of America 5:20 – Gangster vs racketeer 14:00 – Racism and prison story 34:20 – Tech change the way the mafia work? 39:00 – Powerful people and the hypocrisy 56:40 – Russo/John Alite 1:00:00 – Sammy was a samurai 1:05:00 – Sammy Explaining the guy he killed 1:14:30 – Inspire someone into the life 1:20:00 – Sammy on religion and God 1:25:40 – Reaction to Rudy clip 1:31:00 – Gotti is a killer 1:37:30 – Chin Chigante 1:45:20 – Gotti Jr

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	In California.
	Yes, I guess.
	Gentlemen, we are alive.
	All right.
	David says we're live.
	We're live.
	By the way, David, it's good to have you back.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Why don't you tell us where you were at?
	Go ahead, buddy.
	I went to Plaja del Carmen.
	So he starts off regular English.
	And then he goes straight up with the accent.
	By the way, I got to tell you, Sammy, we have Sammy de Bogrivano here with us today.
	Sammy, thank you for being on the podcast.
	My pleasure.
	My pleasure.
	We're going to talk about Mafia States of America, and we're going to talk about a lot of other things that's going on in different stories.
	But my shower here in the office, I'm begging the building to fix my shower to be warm water, okay?
	I go in there.
	This is the fourth time the plumber.
	Right now, it's a public announcement.
	If the plumber's listening, please, por favor.
	I'm telling you, give me some hot water.
	I go in there.
	Every time I go into Carolina, it's like, no, they fixed it.
	I go and I scream like a little girl.
	I'm like, loud off the top of my lungs, but I have to start it with a cold shower.
	Sometimes I go hot, then I go cold.
	I thought it was very important for the world to know about this, the fact that my water is still cold.
	So, Sam, tell Caroline, tell Mickey, please, let's fix this show.
	So, how cold is it?
	It's so cold that it wakes me up.
	It's great.
	I don't mind it.
	I mean, I come right after the gym, but it wakes me up.
	So, I'm awake right now.
	So, that's that loud, girlish scream we hear?
	That's me.
	Yeah, I can't scream like that.
	Okay.
	It's a manly scream like that.
	So, anyways, at least you look good.
	It's a shame because we all know what happens to a man in a cold shower.
	They feel more confident.
	Their confidence goes up.
	I don't know about that.
	The same thing that happens in the pool.
	The water was cold.
	Yeah.
	Two minutes into the podcast.
	I just got out the water.
	I just got out of the water.
	That's a Costanza reference.
	Oh, my gosh.
	So, Sammy, since we announced Mafia States of America trailer, the couple trailers that's come out, tell us what are your thoughts the three days we spent together while we did the interview, and what are you hearing from the market?
	What are people telling you?
	I know your podcast is crushing it.
	You got some big projects coming soon as well, which I'm sure the followers are going to know about.
	But tell us what's happened ever since we sat down with you and Michael with the Mafia States of America.
	Well, a lot of things.
	All my following, everybody's asking me when it comes out, when it's going to come out, and all this other stuff.
	So I tell them soon.
	But everything is going well.
	And we're getting a lot of calls from everybody, different companies, different people from all over the place.
	And I think the three days we spent there with the interview, some of them were a little rough, I think.
	I got a little excited a couple of times, but I think it went well.
	I think it went very well.
	I thought there was a great team put together.
	My team came down.
	They loved it.
	They enjoyed it.
	I mean, I think I have a different image of Michael.
	Really?
	Yeah, I do.
	I have a different image of him.
	You know, meeting his family and him.
	And I think he's a lot more honest than I thought originally.
	And I got to like him.
	Very interesting.
	Did you think that was going to be the case?
	Because when you and I talked the first time for a couple hours, you were like, there's no way in the world I'm going to do this.
	And then a couple years later, you ended up doing it.
	Your expectation going in versus what ended up happening, do those two align, or did you think it was going to be slightly different?
	I didn't know what it was going to be like.
	I'll tell you the truth.
	Michael's a racketator.
	There's no question about it.
	He was a moneymaker for the family.
	He did that Russian thing.
	He said he started.
	He actually started it.
	But the Russians did it.
	They used us.
	It was a very intelligent move that they did.
	And they came to us with this bullshit, protect us and do this and do that.
	They came to us for one reason.
	We had connections all over the city of New York.
	We could put them in hundreds of gas stations with their guests and their scam.
	And they gave us money.
	But they gave us that bullshit story.
	We're scared, take care of us.
	They didn't need us to take care of us.
	They needed us to get gas stations.
	So there was a lot of stories, and he was one of the first people they went to.
	I think his father's reputation and name made them go to him.
	And he was very successful with it.
	But like we talked about in the thing, I think I'm a gangster and a little bit of a racketeer.
	I think people agree with that.
	And he's more of a racketeer, which is not a shame.
	There's no shame to that.
	And I think he believes in a lot of things.
	It's religion.
	I questioned that a couple of times.
	But I think, you know, some people change their life and believe it.
	Some people don't.
	But I think he's told the truth.
	So I changed my mind a little bit, this whole thing.
	You know, we have a clip that we'll show here in a minute with Rudy Giuliani.
	And there's a part where I ask Rudy about do people change, you know, all this other stuff.
	And he says certain things about Michael.
	He says certain things about Gotti.
	And then he says certain things about you, about people change him.
	And we'll get into that here in a minute.
	But the question I have for you is, there seems to be, and I know, I don't know if we got into this or not, there seems to be a certain level of pride to say I'm a gangster versus a racketeer in your world.
	Like we're not in your world.
	We don't know your world.
	But in your world, how is a gangster seen?
	How is a racketeer seen?
	In the streets?
	It's almost like if I'm in the military, you know, I wonder, is it like infantry versus support?
	What does that look like?
	Racketeer against gangster?
	That's a great analogy.
	I mean, infantry versus support.
	You know, when you're in the infantry, you're going out and you're putting yourself on the front lines, and there's somebody way in the back supporting you.
	They all deserve respect.
	They're all part of it.
	But, I mean, the main guy on the front lines, you've got to give him a lot of respect.
	He's the guy taking the bullets, giving them.
	I mean, he's the guy who's making them happen.
	So you've got to respect him a little bit more than the guy in the back.
	But they're all part of it.
	So I never looked at it.
	Well, I was in the military as well.
	I never looked at somebody who was in the back that he was less than me.
	But he was in the back.
	I was in the trenches.
	And I really wasn't in the trenches.
	I was in the infantry, but I was on communication.
	So in the back, we set up a tent where they communicate with the front lines and back and forth.
	I'm the schmuck who ran back and forth to the front line to talk with the guy who's got the radio or what there was problems.
	So I'm back and forth.
	So I knew what it was to sit in the back, and I knew it was be sitting on the front lines.
	I'd rather sit in the back a little bit, to tell you the truth.
	But you had bullets fucking flying around.
	And where was this exactly?
	In training.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I never went to Vietnam.
	For Vietnam.
	Okay, gotcha.
	Yeah, I was indoor in the event and I'm war, but I never went there.
	You needed a full year.
	I only had eight months left, so they wouldn't ship you out.
	And then they asked me when I go to the VA, did you have boots on the ground?
	Yeah, I did.
	In Benson Hurst, Brooklyn, I had boots on the ground.
	Not in Vietnam.
	You know, he went to Vietnam, except he was in Vietnam to party, not in Vietnam.
	It was a great time.
	Well, after the war was over.
	Yeah, yeah, early 2000s.
	Different stories.
	Different stories.
	I brought back Nancy Tran with me.
	So racketeering and gangster.
	Like when guys that listen to your podcast or guys that listen to interviews and they're in the world, maybe they were an associate, maybe they were a made men.
	I'm not even talking about the cop who is the underboss or anybody that had a rank.
	Those who were an associate or those who were made men, how do they look at visually?
	Like I'm really curious, how do they look at a gangster versus a racketeer?
	If they walked up to a racketeer and it's an earner as big as Sammy, as big as Michael, the kind of money that he was making, do they look at him and do they say, wow, this guy's making money for a lot of us, so respect for that.
	And then do they look at a gangster and say, I better not cross this guy?
	What is that level of mindset in your world, not our world, in your world?
	Well, to put it in your world, how do you look when you go in a room and there's a pit bull and there's a poodle?
	What do you think and how do you feel?
	You're saying a racketeer is a poodle?
	Well, compared to a pit bull, he's a poodle.
	Yes.
	So that's an interesting analogy, to say the least.
	I didn't think he's.
	I don't really have a comment other than that's interesting.
	Well, I mean, you know.
	So I'm a gangster, you're a racketeer.
	That's what I was learning from.
	Because I make the money and you deal with other stuff.
	Yeah, well, a pit bull bites, right?
	So you're going to have, well, you know, I'm going to be a little more cautious than this poodle.
	And the pit bull, you know, the poodle makes money at shows.
	Shows, and you've got to respect that.
	He's won medals, and you could sell his little puppies and stuff like that for big money.
	So you respect both of them.
	You love both of them.
	They're dogs.
	Sammy, can I ask?
	a little more dangerous than the other one can the can the gangsters do they need to co-exist Meaning, do you need to have racketeers and gangsters?
	Can you just have gangsters?
	Can you just have a racket?
	No, you got to have a yin-yang kind of a thing.
	How does it work?
	It's, well, listen, we respect the entire thing.
	If you burnt that saint in your hand and you became a made guy, we respect you, no matter what.
	We respect the life.
	So we respect whatever you are.
	Somebody proposed you to become a friend of ours, and we respect that.
	If we don't respect that, we could die.
	We can't raise our hands to one another.
	I can't raise my hands to a guy who's a racketeer and say, I'm a tough guy, and he's not.
	Bullshit just don't work.
	Everybody has equal respect.
	David, is that Mike on?
	Is that Mike on?
	No.
	Is that Mike on, Kai?
	I think it was on there.
	It was on?
	Now you turned it off.
	Okay, good.
	Okay, that's good.
	I'm hearing stuff.
	Okay.
	Excellent.
	Did that answer your question for you, Dad, racketeer versus gangster?
	I want to make sure that he was.
	The reason why we're asking this question is because Adam's thinking about being a gangster.
	And we're trying to hold him back from doing it.
	Because he wants to convince him.
	He doesn't want to do La Cosa Nostra.
	He talks about La Kosher Nostra is what he wants to do.
	That's appropriate.
	Yeah, he could go to a Jewish deli and hit it up.
	Thank you.
	But you've been, you said very, quite candidly last night that you got along very well with Jews and the Italians and the Jews coexisted and you guys did things together.
	Would you expound upon that?
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	I always did.
	In Benson Hurst, Brooklyn, when I was a kid, it was predominantly an Italian Jewish neighborhood.
	We had a house, my mother and father and us, in the middle.
	On both sides, there was three houses attached.
	On both sides, there was Jewish families.
	And we had a tremendous respect.
	I told stories a long time ago.
	My friends would break my balls.
	You're Jewish.
	They would call you Jewish?
	Yeah, you're a Jew.
	I said, I'm not.
	I'm Italian.
	What are you talking about?
	They said in the house, when we put up the Christmas lights in the window, there was the Hanukkah lights.
	The menorah.
	The menorah.
	The Shamasha's right here, the leader.
	Right.
	So I went in and asked my father, why are we putting candles in the window that are Jewish?
	People think we're Jewish.
	He said, because our neighbors, the holiday is very similar and respected in neighbors.
	They're Jewish.
	I put the manure in the window.
	And I learned things like that.
	When I shoveled snow for my own house, I did it for them.
	And they always took care of me.
	They had fish.
	They would call me in, Sammy, come in my house.
	I knew I had a fish tank.
	They would buy me fish.
	I always had great relationships with Jewish people.
	Sammy, what's the story about the Jewish community?
	I talked to Myron Sugerman.
	I don't know if you know the name Myron Sugerman or not.
	No.
	I had him on, and he was a Jewish gangster.
	He calls himself the last Jewish gangster.
	And he was telling stories about the Jewish mob back in the days, how tough they were, how strong they were.
	And partly he talked about how they trained Italians because they were one of the first.
	What do you know?
	You're a history guy.
	What do you know about the history of the Jewish mob and the affinity with the Italian mob?
	Was there a training going on?
	Was there some kind of a...
	You know how you're talking about Maya Lansky and them.
	Yeah, yeah.
	They were very powerful in the mob.
	Murder Incorporated was mostly Jews.
	Say that one more time.
	Murder Incorporated, the shooters were mostly Jewish guys.
	Interesting.
	Why was that?
	I don't know.
	Ask Lucky Luciano when you see him.
	But Lucky Luciano was completely close with Maya Lansky and a lot of Jewish gangsters.
	He grew up with them.
	He liked them.
	They were around him.
	And they were tough.
	I mean, Bugsy Siegel, these people were tough people.
	Murder Incorporated, there was a bunch of them.
	Well, it comes down, the actual history of it comes from the original immigration.
	The Jews were the first real wave of immigrants in lower Manhattan.
	And then, you know, we talked about this with the Irish.
	Corned beef on St. Patrick's Day is actually the Jews teaching the Irish how to cure their meat.
	There was no refrigeration.
	They couldn't afford it.
	So it's kind of the same thing.
	In the early American, you love this word, Zeitgeist, the Eastern Europeans and the Jews were the first wave of immigrants.
	And then the Italians and the Irish, we were the second wave.
	So we kind of learned from them coming over here.
	And even when I was in the military, there was a few Jewish guys I knew.
	And they were from New York.
	And we used to travel with the car back and forth.
	And one of the guys, his mother, would make me sandwiches.
	She heard my name was Sammy.
	She must have thought I was a Jew.
	She made me sandwiches.
	She made me with this Jewish salt on top of the fat on top of the sandwich.
	It was delicious.
	And she liked me up until she saw a cross on my neck.
	I think she didn't like me no more.
	But I had another guy, Feldman, Teddy Feldman.
	When we got out, he owned an employment center.
	And he hired me and my friends, got us jobs and places.
	So I always got along with Jews.
	So you had good relations with the Jews.
	I saw you do an interview with a bunch of black guys.
	I think it was like on iHeartMedia.
	I don't recall.
	And they were asking you how you or Italians got along with the blacks in your neighborhood.
	Do you recall that interview?
	Unless you're talking about Gangster Chronicles.
	I don't know what it was called, but it was you in a room.
	They were asking you about relations with how you got along with African Americans.
	I always got along good with them.
	You know, especially in prison, I got along very well.
	I'm not racist.
	I'm not anything like that.
	I don't walk around like in prison thinking my shit don't stink.
	So I had good relationships with people.
	I went to gyms.
	I used to spa.
	I worked out with black guys and things.
	So I never had a problem with black guys.
	You told a story about when you were in the Army that they were in line giving the food.
	And they were calling you boy.
	And you said the most racist people were in South Carolina at this point in their life.
	I didn't pick South Carolina.
	I was in Cal Carolina.
	Fort Jackson?
	Yeah, Fort Jackson, South Carolina.
	I knew what racist was in New York.
	I mean, I knew what it is growing up.
	I said, when I went down there and I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, I saw it in a whole different light.
	I never, in New York, I never went around where a black guy couldn't go into the same bathroom.
	But down there, they had that.
	So it was really...
	Late 60s?
	When was this?
	In the 60s, 64, I got it.
	So it was really heavy down there.
	Probably not legally, but the people, some of the people, and I had trouble with a couple of guys walking on the line.
	We were serving.
	He came from the blocks, this black guy, and I heard him call him boy and this and that.
	I knew he wouldn't like that.
	I looked at him, but it didn't seem to bother him.
	Then he did that with me.
	And then he told me, whip it on me, boy.
	You know, when I was putting the stuff in his tray and stuff, I had the long metal spoon.
	It started dripping over, and I stopped.
	And he threw it on the table.
	And he says, when I tell you, whip it on me, I'll tell you when to fucking stop.
	I was stunned.
	So I just whacked him right in the front of the head.
	With a spoon on me.
	With the spoon.
	And then the black guy jumped over the counter.
	Of course, his friend hit me with a tray, and the black guy jumped over.
	And we were fighting a couple of them.
	And then the MPs came.
	We were like arrested.
	And the guy, the head MP, was a black guy.
	And he looked at me.
	And he says, you like helping black people?
	Boy, he thought I jumped in to help him.
	It was the other way around.
	Gotcha.
	But I wasn't going to tell him that.
	So I said, well, that's the way it is in New York.
	And he winked at me, so I knew I wasn't in trouble.
	And when we never were able to serve anymore, they put us in the back.
	We were peeling potatoes all the time.
	No more spoons for you.
	No more spoons.
	It's tough to hurt somebody with a potato.
	Yeah.
	You got to throw it at them versus.
	And you're not on the line, so you're in the back with a big drum and peeling potatoes all fucking day long.
	So I never had a problem.
	My granddaughter is biracial.
	So I never had a problem.
	You know, I'm doing a video now.
	I was in prison and I was with a biker.
	This guy, Mark.
	He had long, long hair coming down, a full beard.
	He looked like, just he looked like he had all hair.
	His whole face, everything.
	You could hardly see his face.
	Real racist guy.
	And I'm in a cell with him.
	The unit manager was black, a black woman.
	And she says, I'm going to put you in a cell with him.
	I'm going to move you as soon as I can, but put up with it.
	So she knew he was a problem to be.
	He's a white guy.
	A white guy.
	A lot of hair in the column.
	Not a lot of hair.
	Look like a fucking monkey.
	And so we have conversations and stuff.
	And, you know, he sees a program with a black man and a white woman.
	He wants to change the channel.
	He wants to do this.
	He wants to do that.
	So I said, leave it alone.
	Then the thing, every time I got up, I stepped on potato chips, pretzels.
	He was real dirty.
	That was my first argument.
	I said, bro, we got to live in here.
	Clean it.
	I don't want this shit out of the floor.
	So then one day, when I wanted to watch a program, and he didn't want it, he says, I know why you allowed us because of your daughter.
	She likes black people, right?
	I said, shut your fucking mouth, bro.
	I told you to stop with the racist shit.
	He carried on.
	And he says, yeah, he says, yeah, little nigga baby.
	I hit him so fucking hard.
	We fought all night long because it was after we went out.
	And you're in the same cell as this guy.
	Same cell.
	We fucking bashed the shit out of each other.
	All night.
	All night.
	Holy shit.
	Got up the next day.
	It was a Spanish guy, Steve O.
	The next cell.
	Sammy, what the fuck were you doing, bro?
	So, what do you think I was doing, bro?
	I was fucking fighting all night.
	My lip is hanging.
	Everything's fucking.
	But he was all fucked up.
	He went to the unit manager and he told her.
	She called me in.
	And she said, what happened?
	I said, nothing.
	She said, nothing.
	You're all caught up.
	The guy told me that you had a fight with him.
	So I said, listen, not a fight.
	So she says, he said racial shit to you, right?
	Could be.
	Don't fight no more.
	I can't move you to a cell, but you're going to go back in there.
	Kick his fucking brains in.
	She told me.
	No shit.
	I swear to God.
	She says, do it what you want, but don't finish it.
	Just don't destroy him.
	Because he wanted to be moved.
	Yeah, I went back in.
	As soon as I got back in, I said, listen, I apologize for last night.
	So he put his hand to shake and I whacked him a fucking job.
	And I said, fuck this.
	I beat his fucking brains in.
	The next day he went to the warden passed by.
	He grabbed the warden.
	And he said, I want to be moved.
	This guy's every fucking night.
	The warden looked at me.
	You're fighting with him?
	Bro, the guy's a piece of shit.
	He's a liar.
	He's a liar.
	Your fucking face looks like a fucker.
	Knuckles are bleeding.
	Knuckles are still bleeding.
	I should get out of this.
	I said, I do that to myself, bro.
	I do that because I'm stupid and I'm in jail.
	I do it to myself.
	The warden started laughing.
	He says, all right, he says, Sammy, just slow it down a little bit.
	So everybody hated this guy.
	Everybody hated him.
	What ended up happening to the guy?
	Did he even make it?
	You know, I was friendly with A.B. guys, some A-B guys.
	And this guy, John, and he was in the same unit as me.
	We were in other units together.
	And he knew about the fight.
	So this guy, Mark, was going to leave.
	They called him.
	Marshals are here.
	You're going to leave.
	I was so happy he was leaving.
	So John called him.
	He says, Mark, you're leaving?
	Yeah.
	And he put his hand out.
	Mark grabbed his hand.
	He grabbed his hand and hit him a fucking left.
	So you can't do nothing because the marshals are waiting.
	If you don't leave, then you're going to stay there.
	So he wants to get the fuck out of there anyway.
	So everybody hated him.
	This guy, Jimmy the General, he was a maid guy.
	He hit him one day with me.
	You know, that's a funny story because he was a biker and he did tattoos.
	So he's showing me some of the work he did because I had a ton of tattoos.
	And he shows me and his wife has her dress up so you can see the leg and the work.
	But she has no panties on, right?
	And it's up quite a bit.
	So I said, oh my God.
	I said, this is good work, bro.
	I'm looking right at his wife.
	So I said, Jimmy, come here, bro.
	Look at this.
	Mark does beautiful work.
	Look, he's got Picoque.
	Look at that.
	You know, Bikak and Italian.
	He says, take a peek at this.
	It's Bikak over here.
	So Jimmy comes over, looks at it.
	He's laughing.
	Mark said, what's Bikak?
	That's beautiful work in Italian.
	I said, that's what it means.
	Telefoxia.
	So we tortured him.
	But I beat him up every night.
	How long did that last, Sammy?
	It lasted about a week.
	Then he just stopped.
	He just stopped.
	He was literally crying.
	Stop it, Sammy.
	Because as soon as the door clicked and the guard walked away, he knew it was, it was like round three, round four.
	Let's go again.
	I just wanted to go.
	Were you guys ever like knocked out on the ground like after being you know hitting each other so much?
	Was it ever to that point?
	I had the top bunk.
	So, and I had the bottom bunk.
	So as soon as the guard was still there, locking, he would try and jump on the chair at the desk and boom, shoot up onto the top bunk.
	And I couldn't get him.
	You know, because if I'm short.
	So as I step on the chair to try again, he would kick.
	He'd try to kick me to fucking.
	Was he an actual monkey?
	He was like a monkey.
	But he would kick me so I couldn't get on there.
	But I would take the kicks, back off for a little bit, and then you would try to drag him off the top.
	Oh, I dragged him off the top a bunch of times.
	But he would hang on to the thing.
	His whole body was in the yeah.
	Like you're doing a hell in a cell match.
	Like you're the undertaker.
	But Sammy, the bottom line is you guys shared a cell together.
	Like, how do you even sleep?
	Now you can't leave.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Well, you sleep.
	At the end of the night, if we fight for about an hour, we could both go to sleep, believe me.
	You could both go to sleep.
	You have to.
	I mean, you're so exhausted and so beat up.
	You know, it's just the whole day.
	Now they locked you at night.
	Now you're battling for an hour, hour and a half, banging all over the fucking place.
	You know, you stop.
	You just can't keep going.
	In other words, it's not that I want to kill him.
	I just want to beat him up.
	Let me ask you: at the end of the fight, do you say, good night, and then like they say you're coming to the moment?
	No, no, there's no good night.
	Two do you every day?
	Let's see you in the morning.
	That's a great question.
	I mean, like, he would tell him me shit, and then I would tell him, listen, tomorrow, go because I wanted him out of the cellar.
	I don't want to fight him every night.
	I said, tell the unit manager to move you.
	I mean, you talk about go complain.
	I don't give a fuck.
	You talk about not being able to sleep.
	I mean, your whole life, man, you've lived on the razor's edge for so long.
	Like, you do something, you do some work, and then you got to think, you know, man, this is what I just did could be 25 years if anybody ever catches me.
	25 years of my life, any minute anybody could be a cop, anybody could be undercover.
	Anything that you speak into can be wired.
	Like, what you talk about not being able to go to sleep.
	Like, what was it like in the beginning?
	What was it like, you know, as you were moving up the ranks?
	Did it ever become easier?
	Did it ever be like, well, they haven't caught me yet.
	They're not going to catch me.
	How did you handle the stress of being in that life?
	I got caught all my life, bro.
	Every fucking thing I ever did, just about, especially as a kid, I got caught a lot of times.
	Look at my rap sheet.
	I'm arrested 20 fucking times in my life.
	I'm arrested one time on a double homicide that I didn't commit.
	I got out on bail, $100,000 bail back then.
	I came out, I got busted, robbing cars and robbing things to pay fucking lawyers and things.
	And I got busted a third time.
	I had three cases going at the same exact fucking time in my life when I had those cases.
	So I'm busted a lot of times.
	You know, I just, this life of mine, I seemed to be involved in everything.
	I was chosen to go on hits that were literally impossible.
	The Johnny Keys hit, the Castellano hit.
	I was in three mafia wars.
	My life just never stopped.
	I don't know what happened or why.
	And I just kept going.
	When did you enjoy your life?
	Like, what was the happiest phase of your life?
	I always enjoyed my life.
	My wife, my kids.
	When I went away, I bought a farm.
	When we would go away from the farm, I would get off the highway in Jersey.
	It was Cream Ridge, New Jersey.
	Bro, the mob, everything was out of my head.
	I smoked those trees.
	I was in a different thing.
	When I went home, I shut it down.
	It had two different lives.
	And I wasn't just fighting and shit all the time.
	It happened.
	I think maybe my size, it happened.
	Fights more.
	Thinking they could do something or get away with things.
	I fought in the ring.
	I don't give a fuck if I win or lose the fight.
	When I'm in a fight, I want to hurt you.
	Period.
	And I don't give a fuck if you win.
	But you're going to know that I fought.
	You were in a fight, yeah.
	You're going to say, bro, I beat him up, but I don't want to fight him again.
	That's all I do.
	But I don't back up from anybody in prison, but I don't bully people, and I'm good with people.
	You know, I asked Patrick, I know him a long time.
	I never beat him up, as big as he is.
	Hasn't happened yet.
	Hasn't happened yet.
	And it wouldn't have happened.
	Peaceful.
	What are you smiling about?
	It might happen to you.
	First of all, off camera, Gerard was upset because Adam was acting a little too hard around Gerard.
	Yeah, he felt safe with Sammy.
	He felt safe with Sammy.
	He had his muscle here with him.
	So for the next couple hours, I'm looking right at you, Gerard.
	By tomorrow, lose my number.
	I'm not going to do it.
	But Sammy, I guess let's restate, change the word happy, peaceful.
	Like, if you were to go think about the most peaceful face of your life, when was it?
	Like, I'm talking pure peace.
	And I'm not talking about when I come home smelling the trees, the kids, the family, all that stuff.
	I'm talking pure peaceful.
	What was that era?
	Was it when you were a kid?
	Was it when you were in your teen?
	Were you, you know, a young adult?
	When was that?
	No, of course, when I was a kid, I had a good mother, a good father, and I had good friends, the neighborhood.
	I played ball.
	I never did anything.
	But I was dyslexic, and I had trouble in school.
	So I think that was my downfall, if you want to call it that.
	I had trouble in school.
	You know, I told somebody once, you see this paper, I told them, here, read this paper.
	I'll tell you.
	Read this paper.
	Then I take a blank piece of paper and I just scribble on it.
	And I say, read that.
	And you'll tell me, I can't read it.
	It's all scribbling.
	Well, that's what this looks like to me.
	How old were you when you said that, when you showed that?
	Well, I did that a little older, but because people didn't understand it back then.
	But school just wasn't for me.
	You know, and kids are cruel in school when they're calling you dummy, they're laughing and this and that and the other thing.
	I had a little bit of a temper, especially I like girls.
	They're laughing, they're belittling me in front of girls.
	So after school, I'll break your fucking ass, bro.
	So you wouldn't do it no more.
	And I think that's what I learned that, you know, a good swift punch stops the laughing and stops the joking and whatever.
	If you're joking as a friend and you're doing something, that's one thing.
	But if you're trying to belittle me, I don't take that lightly.
	And I think that's, I got left back in the fourth grade.
	I got left back in the seventh grade.
	And I was in a gang.
	So that was, it was over.
	That started my life into a way of crime.
	Now, we were in a gang.
	We were like, fuck the mafia.
	I'm not going to ever be in the mafia.
	It's us against the world.
	It's all us and fuck this.
	This is in, what, middle school type of thing?
	No, this is 16, 17.
	18, 19, I got drafted into the army during the Vietnam War.
	I came out when I was 21, right back into the rampers in a gang.
	At 23, the neighborhood was so saturated with the mafia, you couldn't do anything.
	And while I was gone, most of my friends hooked up with somebody.
	So at 23, I hooked up with the Colombo family, and I did my first hit.
	And the rest was history.
	I have a start button.
	I don't have a stop button.
	Whether it was business, whether it was the mafia, no matter what it was.
	And it's until today, there were some young girls who worked for me.
	I burnt them out.
	Too much work, too much drive.
	No other reason.
	But I seem to always be like that.
	I'm just aggressive that way.
	I'm 76 and I'm doing 15 different projects.
	With you guys, Mafia States of America, I'm working on a scripted show on a script.
	I'm working on a possible documentary, DACA series.
	We're talking to people with.
	I have them on social media.
	I'm like a social butterfly all over the fucking place.
	I don't stop.
	That's got to be pretty quiet.
	That's got to be pretty wild for you.
	You lived your whole life trying to keep everything under wraps and now the entire world is snitching on themselves on a phone.
	All these 16-year-olds are taking like Snapchats of themselves at a party.
	We used to try to sneak in at night so our parents didn't know we were partying.
	You lived your whole life in the shadows and now everything's on Front Street, man.
	You know what I say a lot of times?
	I say that what I'm doing, I got 400,000 now subscribers.
	I got 50-something million hits on my podcast and my videos.
	I said, if John Gotti was alive and be looking at this, he would be so sick.
	He would say, that's what I wanted to be.
	He wanted the publicity.
	He wanted, he would have loved this, in my opinion.
	Because this is what he was about.
	Everything was a show.
	The way he dressed, acted, it wasn't Gozanostra.
	Me, I was on the duck.
	I don't want to see nothing.
	You know, the agents would say, what a pleasure it was to follow Sammy when he was the underboss.
	He'd come out of his office, t-shirt, pair of sneakers.
	He'd go in the schoolyard with some kids, playing handball.
	It was so different watching him than watching some other gangsters, you know, playing that gangster role.
	I didn't do that.
	Low-key was for me.
	Now, the role's reversed.
	I'm a fucking social butterfly.
	YouTube is on the mob one list.
	They call me Pod Father now.
	The Pod Father.
	Is that just a sign of the times?
	Things have changed so significantly.
	I guess it did.
	It's a sign of the times that, I mean, I never even saw this stuff.
	I went away.
	I was in almost 18 years straight.
	I never even saw these phones.
	I still have trouble with this phone.
	But, I mean, it's a pleasure, really.
	You get in the car that gives you directions.
	Do you think technology, if technology was around when you guys were coming up, do you think many guys would have found a different way, different racket to make money and not doing illegal things?
	Do you think it would be very different, or you think guys would still be doing what they're doing?
	Because this is helping you make money.
	This is helping you generate income.
	This is, I mean, 400,000 subs, you got there very quickly.
	50 million pod.
	You can do sponsorships.
	You can do a lot of different things that's going on with you.
	You've got people that are watching.
	So your mind is not consumed with, you know, hey, I need money.
	What do I need to do to go make money?
	So is this almost eliminating the thought of I got to figure out a way to make money and survive?
	Do you think that would have prevented a lot of guys to get into life with the technology we have today, both from the camera standpoint as well as way to make money?
	I don't know.
	I really don't know.
	You know, my mindset was being a gangster and I was a gangster the whole time.
	I don't think I would have turned to this.
	Now, I might have had somebody else use other people and took a piece of some business that they were doing in this field that might interest me.
	Hollywood might have interest me.
	In the background, I'm a camera guy.
	I'm in the back.
	I don't want to be in the front.
	Now it's different.
	Now, I am in the front.
	Everything's about my voice.
	I can't even duck.
	I can't even go away from a weekend.
	But I don't know.
	There's two sides of this sword.
	You can make money with it, and people should use it and use it properly and make money.
	But the other side is that I think the whole country now is in a weird place.
	There's people who are doing some of these platforms who are talking about being in the mafia.
	They're full of shit.
	They're not even, they wouldn't have nothing.
	And everybody seems, a lot of them seem to be lying.
	So you've got to disciple which one is good, which one is bad, which one is...
	So there's a confusion about all of this.
	So it has two edges to this sword.
	I don't know.
	And there's a lot of things that are going on with kids today that I mean, I don't understand.
	The whole country is just out of whack.
	If you would have told me about this country at this point, four years ago, three years ago, I would tell you crazy.
	That would never happen in the United States.
	In what way?
	Which part?
	Every part.
	The coronavirus, the whole thing.
	I mean, the masks, no masks.
	I don't even know what to believe anymore.
	It used to be, you listen to the news, it was gospel.
	Oh, my God.
	This is what they're saying on the news.
	Cronkite.
	Cronkite.
	You know, when you went back, the CNN, the guy who originally formed CNN, Ted Turner, people like that.
	Now they disappeared.
	I don't know what's running it anymore.
	You can't believe anything anymore because one day they're telling you one thing.
	Wear masks.
	Don't wear masks.
	Wear two masks.
	Take a shot.
	Take another shot.
	Take a booster.
	Take another booster.
	Come on, bro.
	What's going on here?
	Two completely different realities about which channels, yeah.
	Yeah, and it's you're hearing all kinds of bullshit.
	You don't know what to believe.
	This guy, Fauci.
	I mean, I don't know if he needs a medal.
	The sexiest man alive, guys.
	Yeah, yeah, sexiest man alive.
	Or he bullshitted the whole world.
	He's part of this whole virus.
	Like, you don't know if he's a hero or a bullshit artist.
	He's a fucking, he's no fucking hero, this guy.
	He's no hero.
	He's paid from what I understand, the highest paid guy in the federal government.
	He's supposed to be a doctor.
	He's supposed to care about us.
	He's funding this thing in China with money.
	Like, we're paying for that.
	We're paying for to get a bat who is disgusting and has all kinds of viruses.
	And we're getting those viruses and trying to transform them into the worst virus and making it that man could catch it.
	For what reason are we doing that?
	The excuse is, so if man catches this, we could cure it.
	That's bullshit because from the bat, you can't even get it.
	First of all, bats don't even live near us and you can't get it.
	So you're creating something to see what you can cure.
	Bro, millions of people have died from this.
	And the word hero, bro, this is the furthest thing from a hero.
	I can't explain what I would like to do to him.
	Well, with all due respect, I mean, listen, you did your crimes and you did time, right?
	But how do you feel about somebody like Fauci or what just happened where, you know, we dropped a Predator drone and it took intense seven kids.
	It took intense scrutiny from Rand Paul for them to admit, yeah, actually, that wasn't a terrorist that we killed.
	It was 10 civilians and it was seven, it was an aid worker and seven children.
	This is our taxpayer dollars.
	We just committed a war crime that was financing the hours of our lives.
	Every news station said it was ISIS K.
	We took them out.
	Everybody would have said, what a strong move.
	And the next thing, you know, the real reports comes out and it's seven kids.
	Yeah, so I got to ask you, you know, as somebody that did time, and you did your crimes and you did time, right?
	But now you look at somebody like Fauci, it looks like nothing's going to happen to him at all.
	These guys, nothing, there's no accountability whatsoever, even small things.
	The mayor of San Francisco puts the entire city on lockdown and she puts a mask mandate out and then she's out there dancing and drinking and partying with no mask whatsoever.
	I mean, how do you handle something like that where you were held accountable, but these people that hold the rest of us accountable face no accountability themselves?
	Well, let me answer that a little bit.
	I've never seen the mafia be a predator against society.
	We stole, we made money.
	We killed one another because of rules in our organization.
	We didn't go out killing innocent men, women, children.
	You mean like people that are outside the mafia?
	Outside of the mafia.
	And we didn't do certain things.
	We took a piece of things that in industries, but we took a piece.
	These people don't give a fuck about nobody.
	They take the whole pie.
	One.
	Two, they don't care about men, women, or children and innocent people.
	There's a complete difference.
	They're nothing like the mafia.
	Talk about the government.
	The people who are, yes, the government and politicians.
	You think they care?
	Even the media.
	Even some of the media people who are out there today.
	Do they care?
	You go to college, you go to universities, all your life, you're going to be out there, you're going to hold the powerful, hold their feet to the fire.
	Are they doing that?
	No.
	So what happened?
	What is happening?
	And how do you stop it?
	That's the whole thing.
	So this technology, Patrick, we went into a whole frenzy about what's going on.
	But this technology, I think it's good.
	And it has a bad side.
	I don't know if it's all that good.
	They're teaching race theory in prison, in schools.
	I mean, I don't get that either.
	Critical race theory, which is just watered down Marxism.
	It's communism.
	Well, it's racism because if you're white and your grandfather owned something or did something, then you're no good.
	I mean, I don't get it.
	I don't even know my great-grandfather.
	I don't know what he did or what he didn't do.
	I don't give two fucks what he did.
	Has nothing to do with me.
	I know what my mother did.
	I know what my father did.
	They were far from being racist.
	Look what they did with Jews.
	They loved people.
	They were their neighbors.
	Or rich.
	Grew up middle class Brooklyn, just like everybody else.
	You weren't down in the South running a plantation.
	What do you hold a held accountable for?
	And I don't think even those people, I don't knock those people.
	That was the time, and that's what they did.
	And racism didn't start with bringing blacks into— white people didn't bring blacks into this country and use them as slaves.
	Like it's the histories.
	Where did they come from?
	Started in Africa.
	The strong African tribes grabbed strong men and women and sold them in Africa.
	Shippers who went there said, wow, we can make a lot of money.
	Guy looks like a strong guy.
	We could sell him.
	He could be a worker somewhere.
	That's how it started.
	It started with black people doing it against black people.
	And then it went all around the world with shippers and whatever.
	This isn't a thing that some kid is born today, whether they're Latin, whether they're white, whatever they are.
	They're not guilty of anything.
	But you could still feel bad for who it happened to without saying, you know, any of this.
	Of course you could.
	Of course you could.
	And when you're wiping out history, that's why they want to wipe out history because this is what it really was.
	So, of course, you could feel bad.
	I would hate that.
	I would hate to see that.
	I have a ton of black friends.
	I just was on Gangster Chronicles.
	I was treated like a king with them.
	The same type of environment, all black guys.
	Joking, laughing, we had a great time.
	Of course, I feel bad what they did then.
	But that's why you want history.
	You want to change it.
	Vietnam, we went there.
	They were telling me when I was a kid, training, they're going to come here.
	They're going to rape your mom, your sisters.
	They're going to kill us.
	They're going to do this.
	They were saying that the Viet Cong was going to come here and do that.
	That was the propaganda that you were being served in.
	That's what I was training under.
	Oh, well.
	But that's bullshit.
	I don't know of one Vietnamese guy or woman who's bad.
	The only Vietnamese woman I know, they do your nails, they do your toenails, your fingernails.
	They're polite.
	They're good people.
	When we left that country, that country never did anything.
	It got better.
	So it was all bullshit.
	So what we're doing now, we're fucking with countries all over the place.
	For what?
	Iran, Korea, this one, that one, all these countries.
	Afghanistan.
	I mean, where the fuck are we?
	Where are we going with this technology and everything we're doing?
	This technology, we just killed innocent people.
	The guy had water drums because he's a humanitarian for people who didn't have water.
	And seven kids, ten people, legitimate people, we killed.
	So now, and we'll just put that on the back burner.
	That don't mean nothing.
	How do you think those people are going to feel?
	They're going to love us.
	They're families.
	They got lost families.
	They're going to hate us.
	And we're doing these things.
	Now, I go with the Me Too movement.
	You pat a girl on the ass.
	Oof.
	You're in trouble.
	Me Too will go crazy on you.
	Where the fuck is the Me Too movement about these girls and women that are about to be slaughtered in Afghanistan?
	What does the Me Too movement stop at the border?
	What about all those people?
	What about these people in the border here?
	I don't know what's going on in this country.
	I'll tell you the truth.
	I look at this border.
	We opened up the border.
	It's a million and a half plus people got in already.
	I got to wear a mask, take shots, do this, do that.
	They don't have to wear a mask.
	They don't have to take shots.
	They don't have to be tested.
	They can put on buses.
	They're shipped all over the country.
	I feel sorry for them when I see them coming through the water, old ladies or kids, and this and that.
	But I feel sorry for the whole country, for us.
	When do we care about us?
	Well, Sammy, you let's use your knowledge of history maybe to our advantage for us that weren't around when you were a kid.
	Be careful.
	I ain't that fucking hard.
	No.
	You said you were.
	Yeah, but history, you want to have.
	I'm not going to ask you about Julius Caesar here.
	I don't want to know about Marcus Aurelius here.
	All right, got it, got it.
	When you were a kid, in the 60s.
	Is that fair to say?
	All right, all right.
	I mean, things couldn't have been any worse.
	JFK assassination, MLK assassination, Bobby Kennedy, Sir Hans Sirhan just got out of jail after 50 freaking years.
	You were a kid growing up, race relations, you know, race riots, race riots, civil rights movement, everything was going on.
	Is it fair to say that we're doing better now than then?
	I mean, as crazier as things are now.
	Let me give you a little example of that.
	We had a thing with the Italian people, the Italian-American Civil Rights League.
	We had big rallies.
	100,000 people.
	Not one window was broken.
	Not one person in the streets was beaten up.
	Not one cop was assaulted.
	100,000, there was Irish, Jewish, Italian people.
	There was every nationality.
	But Joe Colombo did get shot.
	But that's by a guy who, yeah, a radical nut shot him.
	But I'm saying the people, 100,000 of them, there was nothing.
	So we had somebody get shot, a black guy, they put his knee on his neck, which is horrible.
	As soon as I saw that, I said, that's a disgrace.
	This guy's the cop.
	His life is over for what he did.
	What I watched.
	The other three cops are schmucks.
	Just watching them.
	Just watching him.
	You're a cop.
	Take out your gun to your fellow cop and tell him, get your fucking knee off his neck or I'll fucking shoot you.
	Get it off.
	That's what you should have done.
	You didn't.
	So you're just as much to blame.
	Not as much, but you should be fired and thrown out.
	You're not a cop.
	You're not a good cop anyway.
	But to Gerard's point, it seems like back then public figures were being assassinated.
	Like you said, the Colombo, JFK, MLK.
	Now it's just everyday citizens getting shot and it's everyday citizens getting knee on their neck.
	Why is that so different?
	Public fears aren't getting assassinated.
	Germany just actually, it doesn't have to do with America, but it's to your point, Germany actually just disbanded their highest level of government police, what we would consider like state police, because they said that they had an unfriendly opinion of the elites.
	That was the actual excuse that they gave to disband it.
	They had an unfriendly opinion of the elites, so the elites just got rid of them.
	So yeah, it's upside down.
	It used to be the civilians holding the elites accountable.
	Now it's the elites holding the civilians at bay.
	It's a very strange time to be alive.
	They certainly have shifted.
	Yeah, it's almost back to being feudal.
	Listen, all those people you said, Kennedy got shot.
	I saw the whole country crying when he got shot.
	I don't see no revolution.
	I didn't see wars.
	I didn't see riots.
	I didn't see anything.
	Republicans are crying down.
	The same thing with Martin Luther King.
	I've seen people, white people, all kinds of people crying.
	This was a shame.
	He was a good man.
	I didn't see riots.
	I didn't see nothing.
	All of a sudden, now, everything is a riot.
	Well, let's not forget, these people are paid to riot.
	Yeah, well, they're paid.
	So then who's paying them?
	How come we never figured that out?
	No, we know who they are.
	There's that guy from another country, I can't kill you.
	George Soros, George Soros.
	We know who this guy is.
	See, that's the difference with a mafia dude.
	Now, if the mafia had something to do with this, that guy would be dead.
	Soros?
	Yeah, without a doubt.
	Mafia would whack him in fucking two seconds.
	You ain't doing this to us in our country.
	We had neighborhoods we lived in.
	We protected people.
	Those Jews living on the side of us, you couldn't fuck with them with me sitting in the middle or my father or the whole neighborhood.
	It didn't happen.
	We had black people living in our neighborhood, small little church, good people.
	You couldn't fuck with them.
	We wouldn't allow it.
	You couldn't come into a neighborhood and rape our women or kill a kid or be a pedophile.
	We would kill you.
	You took care of your neighborhoods.
	We did business.
	We took care of our neighborhood.
	They were our people.
	We love them all.
	Yeah.
	It was the whole thing where my father was more rapist or child molester or something like that.
	We didn't love them.
	And these things, if he paid to come and create a riot in our neighborhood, bro, he better stay out of the country.
	So I don't even know how the guy gets away with it.
	Or Fauci or these people doing these things.
	How are they getting away with it?
	You couldn't get away with it years ago or in certain mafia areas.
	But yet, these so-called legitimate people are better than the mafia.
	And this is happening.
	I don't get it.
	Did you see what happened in Ducktown, Philadelphia?
	It's impossible to find the video, but to your point, they were rioting in Philadelphia, and then they got down to Ducktown, and there was a whole bunch of people out there with bats and then out there in their guinea tees, their wife beaters.
	And it was white guys, black guys, and they were all going, Black Lives Matter was going nuts.
	And they just stood there and they were like, you guys aren't coming down this block.
	They were like, what do you mean we're not coming down this block?
	And they're like, you're not coming down this block.
	This is not, the riot goes that way.
	It doesn't come this way.
	And they stopped them.
	And there was like three black dudes that were standing with them.
	And they were like, you guys are going to, you know, basically, it was very, very vulgar, but they were like, you guys are going to take his side?
	They were like, yeah, absolutely.
	You cross this line.
	You're in our territory.
	We're going to bust you up.
	And that was it.
	Now, that was on the news for about 30 seconds and it was never played again because that was the blueprint for the rest of the country of how they should handle this.
	How they should handle this.
	They realized that they put it out there on the news because it was salacious and everybody, they were going to get a lot of views.
	And then they took it off the news and it's almost impossible to find online because that is the blueprint for how you do it.
	Just fighting back, not taking it.
	Hey, here's the deal.
	Exactly.
	There's the line in the sand.
	What happens next is your decision.
	Listen, I came out of prison.
	I went and I lived in a regular neighborhood in Arizona.
	They probably said, oh, shit, here goes the neighborhood.
	Everybody blows their horn, waves to me, sees me.
	Neighbor comes in.
	I saw you, Sammy, you want?
	I made stew.
	Would you like up?
	I mean, I get along with everybody.
	They know that I might be dangerous.
	I might, whatever.
	But I'm not now.
	But they all accepted me like it was perfect.
	Neighborly.
	Yeah, they knew, actually, they came to me once or twice.
	They rented a house.
	Some guys rented the house.
	And they were loud with music and this and that.
	So I said, what do you want me to do?
	Well, could you talk to them?
	I says, I'll think about it.
	And I did go and talk with them.
	And I said, bro, the people, I talked with them.
	They're going to call the cops.
	So you got a choice.
	Calm it down.
	And why are you talking to me?
	I'm trying to do you a favor.
	Be quiet.
	Certain hours, these people got to sleep.
	They got to live.
	They got kids.
	Calm it down.
	Guys, why don't you mind your business?
	These kids are telling you this?
	One kid.
	College kids?
	What are they?
	One kid.
	Yeah, well, I don't know if he's college.
	They look like fucking idiots to me, but one kid.
	Want to mind that business?
	I said, listen, bro, I'm going to tell you.
	I'm talking to you nice, telling you you could get in trouble with the cops.
	I'm going to tell you something else, bro.
	I don't even like the way you talk.
	Maybe fuck the cops.
	Maybe I'll take this as a problem, my problem, and your problem.
	We could do that.
	Another guy tells him, oh, hey, bro, I think that sent me the bull.
	He got all fuzzed up with that shit, backed up, and he stopped.
	They stopped.
	The neighbors love me.
	They think I'm fucking God to them.
	But I didn't do it in an intimidating way.
	I did it like to tell them, I don't know what to tell them.
	I didn't want to threaten them until he started giving me stupid answers.
	Well, how do you handle the internet comments then, man?
	You're such a guy with respect.
	You're so old school with respect.
	I mean, the comment section must be.
	I don't even bother.
	I have, you know, we all have these tech guys around us.
	I got a 99-point-something rate of positive things.
	So you're going to get these little creeps sitting in the basement and texting, you know, this guy's a creep and this guy's no good.
	I'm sure Patrick has some asshole.
	He's a good man.
	He probably don't have it.
	But everybody has somebody who wants to be a little creep in the basement.
	They get off on it.
	I don't even bother with them.
	I don't answer it.
	I don't bother me.
	I don't care.
	Now, if I had a million people, maybe that would bother me.
	But it doesn't bother me.
	Listen, I had a bad history.
	I accept what I did.
	And I accept certain comments about it.
	I'm not going to make Father of the Year.
	I'm not going to make, I'm not going to become the President of the United States.
	But I'm a human being like everybody else.
	I did my time.
	I did whatever.
	I stand up to what I did.
	I did a lot of good things, bad things, and ugly things.
	So I take that.
	I don't let it bother me.
	Just avoid it.
	Sammy, let's transition into, you were talking about a couple of guys on the Internet.
	I asked this for Michael.
	I'm just curious to know if you can have any comments on it or not.
	Names that are coming up recently, Jimmy Calandra's coming up.
	I think you and him did something together.
	A-light's coming up.
	Johnny Russo, we've had him on as well.
	What do you think about some of these guys and what they're doing on social?
	I asked Michael the same question.
	I did.
	I know Jimmy Calandra.
	He's a friend of mine.
	And I did have him in my place.
	He came down.
	He was going to get a hotel room.
	I said, listen, bro, I'm living alone.
	You want to just come and live with me?
	I just got my dog with me.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So we lived together for about four or five days.
	And he came on my show, and I did a show with him.
	We had some laughs, like we're doing now, talking.
	And then one or two people, I don't want to name names, but one or two people exploded because he was arguing with one of those names or a couple of those names we're talking about.
	And they were saying that I encouraged him to do that, which I didn't.
	I didn't encourage him.
	I encouraged him when I talked to him.
	I said, there's a lot of assholes out there.
	Put it on the side.
	Don't get into it.
	They want to do this.
	They want you so they can get hits and they could get subscribers and they could get views.
	So they try to get into an argument with you.
	Once you're going back and forth, you're feeding right into what they want.
	Just put them on the burnt.
	But Jimmy has a little bit of a temper, and he didn't.
	He exchanged back and forth with them a couple of times.
	And they blame me for that, which it doesn't matter to me.
	I don't care.
	And so I don't bother with some of those names you just mentioned.
	I don't even bother with them.
	I did bother with one because one of them, this A-like kid, when I came home and I got out of prison, he threw me a couple of dollars right away.
	First guy.
	So I try to reciprocate by saying, he's a good guy.
	He's a tough guy.
	He's this.
	He's that.
	You should try to help him with a show and all that bullshit.
	Then he wanted me to come on and do certain things, and I didn't want to be bothered with that.
	I'm a truthful person.
	If I do something, listen, I take credit for that.
	Maybe that's not the word credit, but I take my responsibility for what I did.
	I mean, I got people that'll call me.
	I got people's kids that murders I'm involved, and I spoke to them.
	People's families, I spoke to them.
	This is what happened.
	This is what it was.
	This is what the truth is.
	Of course, a lot of the stuff they hear is lies.
	In other words, I'm involved in three mafia wars, 19 murders.
	I didn't go out and I never got up one morning and said, Listen, I'm going to go kill somebody.
	I was part of the mafia.
	So were they.
	One woman at my sentence, I won't say the names, she told my judge when I was first getting sentenced, give him life.
	He's a killer, he's this, he's that, he's a serial killer, he's this and that.
	So the judge looked at her and read her statement.
	And the judge says, your brother, who you're talking for, was in his crew.
	Did it ever bother you he was killing people with him?
	It only bothered you when he got killed.
	It never bothered you before killing other people.
	He just shut her fucking right the fuck down with that statement, really.
	And it was truthful.
	And they just disregarded what she was saying because it was all bullshit.
	So that's what you deal with.
	You deal with all this hypothetical bullshit.
	You know, you're protecting him.
	He was a saint.
	Anybody who died, they had a saint.
	You know, after they died.
	But before they died, they were involved in five murders or whatever.
	When did he become a saint?
	After he died?
	So in your mind, is anybody that was in that life, they were fair game.
	They got what they signed up for.
	Anybody, you know, the real problem is if somebody had done something like DeMayo did things to people outside of the life.
	That's crossing the line.
	Two things.
	I'll get to DeMayo in a minute.
	But the thing is, this is going to sound strange, but I'm a samurai warrior.
	In Japan, they're samurais.
	They fight.
	They're very dangerous.
	They cut off arms, heads, legs.
	When they lose battles, they take a fucking thing and stab it.
	There is a culture in Japan.
	They're samurais.
	They're warriors.
	They're loved over there and respected.
	But they don't do this outside of their thing.
	So when I'm talking to somebody now, the guy called me a samurai, warrior.
	He said, you have the mafia is a culture within this country that did a lot of good things, a lot of fucked up things.
	So, but we did it within our culture.
	So we're warriors.
	Maybe not.
	I'm not a Japanese and I'm not a samurai, but similar, if you want to break it down.
	And every country has that culture.
	So we're different.
	Which will lead me right into Roy DeMayo.
	Roy Domedo became a serial killer.
	I mean, I'm about to do a video about him and his crew.
	One time I went to him and Paul was going to make guys.
	And I knew him.
	And I said, they're going to open the books again and they're going to make guys.
	You've got some good guys around you.
	You're going to put anybody up for it.
	He says, Sam, my coffee boy killed five people with me.
	What?
	Your coffee boy.
	Killed five people.
	Yeah.
	He says, I got 200 hits.
	200.
	I said, who the fuck is giving you this kind of work?
	He said, nobody.
	I get a lot of work from the boss and this and that, from Nino.
	But we have the bar on the corner.
	He said, my uncle works there.
	They used to call him Dracula.
	He says, he calls me up at 4.30, 3.30.
	We're playing cards.
	Tells me there's a guy left, one guy, drunk.
	We come in, we snatch him, we bring him in, we kill him, cut him up, get rid of him.
	The guy did nothing?
	No.
	I keep my crew tight, sharp.
	You know what I mean?
	I didn't want to answer that.
	I said, yeah, yeah, I do the same thing.
	Yeah.
	But in my head, I was saying, this is a sick fucking guy.
	He crossed that line.
	He's a fucking serial kid.
	He's killing fucking innocent people.
	And this is why the mafia killed him.
	We're not serial killers.
	If we become a rapist, a child molester, or a serial killer, we will kill you within our ranks.
	We will kill you.
	We're not proud of you.
	We don't like you.
	We will kill you.
	We kill for different reasons.
	You broke rules or you did certain things.
	But those things, you got killed for sure.
	We don't give a fuck who you are.
	So there's a difference in our life.
	It's hard to understand, I think, for other people, legitimate people, don't understand it.
	This is why I'm trying to do, in my scripted show, I'm doing a scene that I go after another hit guy, an older, very, very experienced hit guy.
	I'm young.
	I'm a hit guy already.
	But not a pimple on his ass.
	They picked me to go after him because they feel that this guy, who's very, very smart, very sharp, very cunning, will underestimate me.
	He will underestimate my looks.
	I look young.
	I'm supposed to be.
	He's told a jerk off, a guy who brings messages.
	And Sammy, I think, could pull this off.
	And this is the hit on Johnny Keys.
	And I did.
	I snapped him.
	When I had him in the truck in a van, he looked at me and said, a punk, a jerk off, a messenger.
	What five families in New York and the Philadelphia family couldn't do, you did.
	You have me sitting in this van.
	It was the most amazing fucking thing I ever heard.
	Now, when we do this, I don't want to do it in my movie where I just shoot him or vice versa.
	The people, I want to make it known what went through his head and what went through my head.
	They're going to see what made both of us tick.
	Not just shoot him, I'm gang them and doing this and doing that.
	It's going to be different.
	He talked to me in the van.
	He said, you're good.
	You're really good.
	You fucked up a little bit.
	Okay, what'd I do?
	He said, look at the windows.
	Truckers, they have these CBs.
	They'll look in this window.
	They'll see me tied up.
	They'll see you.
	They'll see these other guys.
	They'll call the cops.
	I was thinking.
	He's critiquing you on the headless.
	Listen.
	I'm looking at him and I'm saying to myself, I didn't say a word.
	But I'm saying to myself, he's telling me how to do a hit on himself.
	He don't want cops involved.
	The fuck kind of guy do I got here?
	Then he tells me, we're talking like we are.
	Sam, go in my pocket.
	I got pills in it.
	What kind of pills?
	Natural glycerin pills.
	I have pains in my chest and I want to die of a heart attack.
	I go in his pocket.
	As I take them out, he says, put one under my tongue.
	If I don't get better, put one, another one every five minutes.
	I put one in his mouth.
	Now I'm saying to myself, he don't want to die of a heart attack.
	He's about to die.
	He knows it.
	He don't want to die of a heart attack.
	We talk.
	I get to know him.
	I fall in love with him.
	I love him more than any fucking man on the planet.
	He's he's what my fear is about.
	He's what Gozen Austria is about.
	He showed me how to die like a man.
	Later on, he says, Sammy, I want two favors more.
	What?
	The guy who pulls the trigger, if it's not you, let it be a friend of ours, meaning a maid guy.
	You got it.
	And take my shoes off.
	Why do you want me to take your shoes off?
	He says, I told my wife she knew I was in this life.
	She knew there was a war that broke out in Philadelphia.
	I told my wife, I'll die with my shoes off.
	Don't worry about it.
	Meaning, he'll be home with his shoes off.
	He's not going to die in the street.
	I said, that's pretty heavy stuff, bro.
	He said, she'll know I was thinking about her in my final minutes of life.
	I didn't want to kill this guy.
	It broke my fucking heart.
	What kind of guy is this?
	But I was under orders.
	I did kill him.
	Nikki Scarford won the war for what I did.
	The next day I drove to Paul's house.
	It was done.
	It was in the papers that a heavyweight mobster by the name of Johnny Keyes was found in Staten Island in the dumps, dead, with no shoes on.
	When I went to Paul's house, the maid let me in.
	Paul got up, came running over, grabbed me.
	You did it.
	I didn't answer.
	He said, what's the matter?
	I said, what I did last night, I killed what mafia is about, what Goza Nostra is about, what we're about.
	He should have been the boss, not Nikki.
	I'm not happy about it.
	I feel dirty.
	He said, anybody else will be jumping up and down, they're going to know our family took care of this.
	Every boss, every underboss, and every consolier are going to know that you did it.
	Nikki's going to know he won the war and you did it.
	And you're disturbed.
	Yeah.
	I don't give a fuck what they think.
	He said to me, Sammy, don't change.
	Stay like that.
	Grab me, hug me, kiss me, let me go.
	I don't want to talk about this no more because it fucking wrecks me thinking about him.
	And he taught me how to die.
	I always wondered, if my time comes, if I'm ever in a van, my last minute, whether it's a hit guy, whether it's cancer, whatever the fuck it is, could I die like this guy?
	Could I be him?
	I hope so.
	He never begged you to change your mind?
	Never tried to talk you out of it.
	He tried to do one thing once.
	At the end, he said, Sammy, I have a lot of money.
	I can make you a very wealthy man.
	I said, please, John, don't do that.
	I've developed a tremendous fucking respect for you.
	You told me this is Gozanos.
	I'm telling you, it is Gozanos.
	There's no money in the fucking world that's going to stop me.
	And don't do it.
	Don't even say it.
	He smiled.
	You are Gozanostra, true and through.
	Racketeers, don't do that.
	Dugs, mafiosos, gangsters, they do that.
	He was a gangster.
	There's a difference.
	Going back to the original question.
	There's a difference in the stories about making money and about that.
	There's no money in the fucking world.
	And the respect I have then, the love, I'm not ashamed to say I love another man.
	I don't, nothing that way, but in the respect I have for him.
	And I talk about it on my podcast.
	And it's actually, and it sounds like a commercial, so I'm not even going to say it.
	What part of it?
	It's on my podcast.
	And it's an incredible thing.
	And to me, it was a lesson in Gozanostra that I learned that is the most amazing thing in the fucking world.
	And about life.
	About life.
	How this man thought about his wife.
	Who the fuck at 70 years old gives a fuck about their wife, how she thinks when he drops dead.
	It don't even exist.
	This guy did that.
	So, I don't know.
	What a way to answer the question, by the way.
	Took you 45 minutes to answer the question, not even 45 minutes, an hour to answer the question, and you answered it that way.
	The difference between a racketeer and a gangster.
	I would have never thought the way you do it.
	You know, that made it very clear between the two.
	You know, Sammy, not to transition out, you know, on this story, for me, I see you and I see you telling the stories.
	You're a true believer in the world you chose to live.
	I don't think to you was about the lifestyle.
	I think to you was more about the code of that life.
	The one question when I listen to you, you're very charming, you're very charismatic, you're extremely believable, and you're, in your own way, you're inspirational, which is very interesting.
	Do you ever think about that maybe the other side of this question is, do you ever think about maybe you're inspiring people to want to be like you?
	Do you think you're inspiring younger guys to want to become gangsters?
	Or what part of your message is to say, do not choose to live my life?
	Because you don't even know it yourself.
	That last 20 minutes, if a 20-year-old kid listens to that, that message may be like, well, I want to be that guy because I want people to be proud of me to get.
	If a guy like that got Sammy to get emotional on a podcast where he said, I don't want to talk about it anymore, I want to get that kind of respect in my life.
	Can you please unpack that so a young person listening to this is not going to get stuck on the fact that I want to be that person one day?
	I said it a hundred times.
	You want to be me?
	Go ahead.
	I got 22 years in prisons.
	I killed people, friends.
	I've seen death over and over again.
	There's no win in being a gangster.
	Freedom is the most important thing you can be.
	Don't take me as a fucking owl.
	Take him.
	Look at Patrick, who needs a lot of things.
	A lot of money.
	Wealthy.
	Good life.
	Just had a baby.
	I lost all that.
	This isn't something to recruit.
	This is something to understand what you'll be.
	You'll kill your fucking best friend on orders.
	And you'll do it or you'll die.
	You may not live to fucking 40.
	And if you do, probably a good hunk of that will be in prisons.
	They'll tell you when to shit, when to eat, when to go to sleep, when to get up.
	If that's what you want.
	But there's life out here like I'm doing now.
	You want to be me?
	I'm making money doing legitimate things.
	And it's not just because it's my story.
	I could do it at anybody's story.
	There's a bunch of different ways in life.
	You don't have to go to college.
	There's money being a fucking carpenter, plumber, electrician, in trades.
	Yo, fuck college.
	They make a lot of money.
	Fuck up your bowl.
	They tell you you'll sink.
	Call a plumber.
	See what happens.
	Guy comes in for 15, 20 minutes, a half hour, and you went for fucking 200.
	Trade schools.
	Trade schools.
	Become something else.
	Learn how to edit.
	There's an industry out here doing this.
	There's people sitting around us all over the place.
	They make a living.
	They don't go to prison.
	They go home.
	Their wife, their kids, their mothers, their fathers.
	Do it.
	This is not to recruit.
	This is to make you understand.
	Johnny Keyes and that.
	You could have been Johnny Keys.
	I could have been Johnny Keys.
	There's no recruiting.
	I mean, if you want to be, I can't stop people from being crooks or gangsters or anything else.
	But my life is a perfect life.
	Look at it.
	I don't know why I'm here.
	I ask God sometimes.
	I believe in God too.
	I ask God, I was shot twice, stabbed once.
	There a special, is there a thing you need or want from me that you want me to do?
	How did I survive these things?
	It wasn't easy.
	Wasn't easy on my wife, on my kids.
	So, if you think this is a good road for you, you go do it.
	But I'm telling you, you're not going to wind up in a good way.
	So, but I'm not going to, you know, I don't go telling kids what to do and what not to do.
	Do whatever you want to do.
	You still believe in God after everything you've seen and you've been through.
	How do you still have that faith?
	You know, faith is.
	I always believed in God.
	When I went to prison, I joined an Indian group.
	Indian?
	Native American organizations?
	Native American.
	I joined the group because they shut down smoking in 2004, I believe it was.
	And I wanted to smoke, and there was no smoking no more in the prisons, in the federal prisons.
	You were done.
	It was over.
	So I saw them smoking in a circle, passing a peeps pipe around.
	Wow.
	I went to them and I said, listen, I'd like to join.
	Because they had probably religious exclusions or something.
	So they said, you got to go to the chaplain.
	In feds, they could change your religion.
	So I said, okay, I went to the chaplain.
	I said, I want to become a Native American Indian.
	They did it.
	They changed my religion.
	And I went and I, in that circle, they accepted me and I smoked.
	And I stole some of that tobacco to bring it back into my cell.
	So when I at night, I put on the TV, nice cup of coffee, I light up a cigarette after the God makes his rounds, and I smoke my fucking brains out.
	But I got to respect their religion.
	What is their religion?
	Their religion is they believe in grandfather.
	Grandfather is a road to God.
	They believe in God like anybody else.
	Higher power.
	Yeah, everybody believes in God.
	The Muslims believe in God.
	Ah, la la.
	They go to God.
	The Christians believe in it.
	Jews believe in it.
	Everybody believes in it.
	Everybody has a separate road to God.
	I'm no different.
	I'm just not on some of your roads.
	You tell me, well, if you didn't find Jesus, you ain't going to heaven.
	Well, maybe I won't.
	Maybe I won't.
	I don't know.
	But I believe in God just like everybody else.
	So this grandfather, they talk about this religion.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Oh, grandfather, you know.
	That's their religion.
	So I did it for five years with that.
	I even went into Wicca.
	Some guys, friends of mine, said, Sammy, you're not an Indian.
	No.
	That's the witches?
	Well, it's witches.
	It's not witches like you see on television.
	A witch is, in their religion, a witch is nothing more than a term like a priest, a rabbi, or whatever.
	He's a witch.
	He can't perform anything as a witch.
	We can't do anything.
	Black magic, it's all that.
	That's television shit.
	But the wicca, they do have some weird, but they're still a religion that wants to go wherever.
	All religions got some weird shit.
	You know, but that's an organization and their road and their money.
	But God is God.
	Everybody believes in God.
	Some to different degrees and weird degrees and whatever.
	But of course, I believe in God.
	You know, I learned how to do artwork in prison.
	Sometimes in Arizona, where I'm pretty legit work, though.
	Like, this is not like artwork, like artwork, like real work.
	Yeah, I've seen some of the work he's done.
	It's very impressive.
	Like painting?
	Like sculpting?
	Oh, no, no.
	Seriously, like, I don't know.
	I do chuck hole.
	Do you have any afterwards?
	Can you show them some of the pictures?
	I got them on my phone.
	My girl can show it to you.
	But in Arizona, I get up and I look at the sunset or the sunrise or something, and I look at it, and it's so fucking beautiful.
	And I say, who could do that?
	God.
	Who could do that beauty?
	Who could do the beauty around you?
	Who could have babies coming out of a woman's body?
	God has got to be there somewhere in everybody's mind.
	The worst of the worst, I think, unless he's completely insane, I'm not insane.
	So I believe in God.
	And I believe that whatever I did, when it comes time, and I talk to him, if I could get up there somewhere, and we're going to have an argument about everything I did.
	That's what people will tell me.
	And I'm going to talk to him about everything he did.
	There's so many kids that die in so many ugly fucking ways, bro.
	You could have stopped me anytime you wanted.
	You could stop that anytime you wanted.
	It's got to be a purpose.
	There's got to be reasons why things happen.
	One thing I'm not is a fake or a phony or a liar.
	I did a lot of horrible things, but I'm none of those things.
	And I think that God will look at me and say, you were none of those.
	I make lambs and I make lions.
	You were a fucking lion.
	Maybe that's the answer.
	I don't know.
	I really don't know.
	It's not to really discuss now or tell other people that their religion is wrong or my religion is right or yours is wrong or you, you this, you Muslim.
	You're all right.
	God will determine it sometime or we'll go back to Wicca.
	We're all energy.
	Our body is energy.
	When we die, our body energy goes and floats all over to animals, to trees, to bushes, to some another human, to other things.
	So that's an interesting thought too.
	So I don't knock anybody's religion or anybody's anything.
	They have their own opinions, their own choice.
	That's what we need.
	And we need to respect everybody else's choices, I think.
	That's the next sit down.
	I'll tell you, I'd watch that, the sit-down.
	Sammy and God across the table have to sit down.
	We got 26 minutes left, and I got a couple things I do want to get into.
	One of the things I want to get into is if you can pull up Rudy's clip when Rudy talks about Michael, Gotti, and Sammy, when I asked the question about, are some people, is this the one, Kai?
	Yeah, inherently bad.
	And are some people inherently bad and what he says about that?
	So if you can play this.
	Do you think if a Sammy, if a Michael, if a Frank, if a Leonetti had your parenting and your upbringing, meaning your parents, your mom and dad, do you think they would have gone straight?
	Or do you think it's in them to say, no, I'm still going to go do the shortcut?
	What do you think?
	It's a little hard to say about the people you don't know.
	So let me tell you about Michael because I know Michael the best.
	There's no doubt that if Michael had the right direction and the right parenting, he'd have been a very successful, legitimate something important.
	Decent guy, respected his father, which is a good thing, except it was the wrong father to respect, right?
	And I'm going to guess on the others, just what I know of, I think there are a few people that are genetically, inherently bad, evil.
	Evil.
	But most people are shaped that way by circumstances.
	I think I could have gone the other way if my parents kept me in Brooklyn.
	I mean, I hope I wouldn't have.
	I hope something else would have stopped me, but there's a chance I could have gone in the other direction.
	So when I prosecuted people, it was always a sense of empathy for them.
	So they were quite human.
	I mean, they were human people.
	Some of them were.
	Dottie was a guy who liked killing.
	There's something sinister and sadistic about John Dean.
	You believe that?
	I know that.
	How about Sammy?
	Don't know.
	Kai.
	Don't know.
	Don't know.
	What do you think about what do you have to say?
	I don't know, I think he looked gay when he was...
	He was fucking mad up there.
	I don't know what the fuck.
	You're not a fan of Rudy.
	I'm not a fan of Rudy.
	No.
	I'm not a fan of Rudy.
	Listen, I'm not against cops and prosecutors.
	I'm against when you think what you did is harmless.
	You're an Italian.
	He's an Italian, I would assume, right?
	What you did to your own kind on many occasions, you have no flaws.
	Your mom and dad was perfect, depending on their upbringing.
	That's an insult to me.
	My upbringing was impeccable from my family.
	I'm the total opposite of what they were.
	And I don't think so.
	I think I got a good side.
	And I think I got the good side from them.
	But when you sit down and you make judgments like that, I don't know.
	Of course, he don't know me from a fucking hole in the world.
	So he can't really make a proper decision.
	He actually says nice things about Michael.
	Michael must have paid him off to say these fucking things.
	but he said some nice things about Michael.
	But I don't like...
	Riketeers have money.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Racketeers have money.
	So he's looking at a racketeer.
	So anyway, what I was going to say is that the part of saying he looked up to his father, that's a good thing, but not that father.
	So he's knocking his father.
	So I don't think that's a good thing to even say.
	If you like him and he did a good thing and he said a good thing, I think son he was a good thing, a good father, in a good way.
	In a different way, he was a gangster.
	He was the ultimate type of gangster.
	He didn't instill anything negative in a way.
	I think he instilled that he loved them in his way.
	I don't think I instilled anything negative to my son and my daughter.
	I probably did, in our way.
	Maybe your mother and father, maybe your mother and father or your mother and father, put something in your mind in a way, and we're going to blame them because you're not 100% like he wants you to be.
	I don't buy that.
	Now, there's a lot of things your mother and father teach you that are wrong, but they mean well.
	There's a difference.
	He don't understand that.
	They'll tell a girl what to do.
	Maybe they're wrong.
	Maybe it won't work for them.
	But they meant well.
	Now the times change.
	So it may not work out well for the girl or the guy or whatever.
	When you get into families and you talk about families and things like that, each person is an individual.
	Nobody does exactly like their mother or father teaches them.
	Nobody does.
	Your environment, the neighborhood, your friends, your relatives, other people, your marriage.
	There's so many fucking things that form your life and how you think.
	Things you see.
	I saw the movie George.
	I saw that fucking shark eating people, bro.
	I'm like a little dick.
	I don't go past my knees in the fucking water.
	This guy must have your genes.
	We go out swimming in the ocean.
	Saw the same movie.
	Saw the same movie.
	Shark can't get me on land, bro.
	Taking you out of the ocean.
	I don't want to be a Nadi Basta for some fucking shark.
	In the fucking buffet, bro.
	You won't go in.
	They make fun of me, man.
	I'll go swim out there.
	I'm swimming laps.
	He's like, up to his ankles.
	I'm not going any further.
	Put me on land with a gorilla.
	I'll take my chances out there.
	I'm on the plate, man.
	What do you think about what he said about Gotti?
	Like, he said, Gotti, I know.
	He didn't say, like, he said, I know Gotti's a killer.
	I think Gotti had a temper.
	I think John was more of a narcissist.
	I think a lot of people say, well, I don't think he ever shot.
	Well, put your head in front of a, when he's holding the gun, see what he'll do.
	I think he'll blow your fucking head off in two seconds flat if he wanted to.
	So to say he didn't pull the trigger, he gave an order.
	He can kill, for sure.
	I think he got a temper and a half.
	I think there was a couple of situations where his neighbor, there was an accident and they killed a neighbor and the neighbor disappeared and all that bullshit.
	But I think he was goaded into that by his wife, drove him fucking nuts.
	Plus, he was sick about losing his child.
	He made a mistake, in my opinion.
	So when you do those kinds of things, when you kill outside the life for reasons like that, you're going to be looked at in a whole different light.
	Like we talked about before.
	You're killing somebody, an innocent person.
	My son was hit by a car.
	My neighbor, he's still, I think he's still alive, but if he's dead, he's 100 years old.
	So that's the only reason he's dead.
	In other words, I didn't kill him.
	I wouldn't do that.
	But it's an accident.
	So I don't know.
	I don't want to label John as he loved to kill.
	I don't think he loved to kill any more than I didn't love to kill.
	He did what he had to do for the life.
	I loved him.
	I was attached at the hip with him.
	He turned on me, backstabbed.
	I turned on him.
	We played chess.
	I checkmated him.
	Simple as that.
	I have no hard feelings towards him.
	If we were alive together now and I know what I know now, I would shoot him in the fucking head in two seconds flat.
	Boom.
	Right now.
	Right here.
	For the whole fucking world, straight up.
	You betrayed me.
	I did everything for you.
	I got you out of every case.
	I'm behind.
	And the government knows it.
	Every case he beat, I'm fucking behind it.
	Bribing people, threatening people, doing all kinds of shit.
	Making things disappear.
	Killing people for you.
	Wearing those and also together, we're brothers.
	It's your tape.
	It's you on tape, not me.
	And you want to sacrifice me.
	You want to help the government put me away.
	So I turned on him.
	If you turn on me, I will turn on you.
	I don't turn on people.
	I don't backstab.
	I don't fuck people.
	But if you turn on me, you fuck with me.
	I'm going to fuck with you.
	Or I'm going to turn on you.
	I don't take it lightly and I'm aggressive in that fashion right away.
	And that's what happened.
	But I do love him.
	I feel bad how he died.
	He died like a fucking animal in prison.
	And this guy talking about he looked like, oh, f ⁇ , you know.
	Fuck you, you know, you fucking asshole.
	What do you know?
	What do you know?
	How many people did you fucking put away?
	Did you bury?
	Do you have any fucking shame or any fucking grief?
	Sometimes I feel bad.
	They're humans.
	No, you didn't feel fucking bad, you fucking dick.
	You didn't feel bad.
	Sammy, some people may say, you know, they call him the American mayor, okay?
	And the streets of New York, if you, you know, ask regular guys that are not in the life and you ask about Rudy, they'll say he cleaned the streets of New York.
	I felt safer because of Giuliani.
	I felt safer because of what Rudy did.
	Law and order gave me a certain level of peace.
	I was living in that community.
	I was scared for my life.
	I was scared on what was going to happen.
	And you hear these stories.
	You hear these stories being told.
	I felt that way.
	I liked what he did.
	Okay.
	As a mayor.
	Got it.
	So him cleaning the streets on what he did.
	Yeah.
	You can boast about that all the fuck you want.
	You can even boast about being a cop.
	I know plenty of cops and agents.
	They have a job to look for me, a bad guy, and put me the fuck away.
	I'm not mad at them.
	Don't do that.
	Don't say that.
	What the fuck do you know about John Gotti?
	Is my opinion.
	Shut your fucking mouth in that area.
	Boast about what you did.
	Boast about what you did on 9-11.
	Boast about cleaning up the city.
	I'm with you.
	You did that.
	I agree.
	You were great.
	You were one of the better mayors.
	I'll have a whole conversation about him.
	He was a great mayor.
	I don't like his statements.
	I don't like his statements about parents, our parents.
	I'm not talking about your parents.
	I don't like you.
	I'm not talking about what your parents taught you.
	I don't give a fuck about your parents.
	And I understand how people feel about it.
	Now, those same people could understand how I feel about it.
	And if they don't, then fucking dislike me or do what you want.
	There's a two-way street with everything and everybody.
	I talked to you the other night.
	You're a classy fucking guy.
	What you do in your life, the people you have around you, it's a class fucking act.
	Now, I got to try to think of something I don't like about you so I could say something.
	I'll find something sooner or later.
	You'll find it.
	Right now, I don't have it.
	We're all looking, Sammy.
	All of us.
	Sammy, when we sat down, we also talked about the chin.
	We talked about the chin multiple times.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, did you see when Michael was here on the podcast?
	No.
	You didn't see.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So you saw one, the video about Chin or no?
	Did you see it?
	I think I did.
	Okay.
	So you heard what Rudy said about Chin, that he was never a number.
	He thought he was number two, but he was really number six.
	How long is that clip, by the way?
	Is it a shorter clip?
	Is this the one where Michael took a walk with Sammy?
	No, no, this is.
	No, not this one.
	I want you to.
	Yeah, that's it.
	Yeah, so go from the part what he says about.
	Do you have the beginning part, what they say about the chin?
	Yeah.
	Did we play that last time or no?
	No, we started talking.
	Okay, so why don't you go and play what Michael and Sammy said about the chin and then go to what Rudy says about the chin?
	Said what he wanted to say.
	He had the walls.
	He was Gozinosha.
	We had the brains to say, this is people in Gozinosha.
	He told another boss.
	John was the boss.
	Told another boss.
	That we were going to do a big raid and we were going to arrest the number one or number two people in each family.
	They did that about two weeks before.
	Well, Chin Gigante, who thought he was number two in the Japanese family, but he wasn't.
	Because everybody hated him.
	They told him he was number two.
	He was like number eight.
	Chin is the guy who walks around in the robes and acts like he was crazy.
	Well, he was crazy.
	He was a borderline personality disorder in the military.
	He was actually, I think, officially diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.
	He was.
	Yeah.
	But he played it up.
	So this information comes out.
	One of the agents comes in and tells you that I can't believe this.
	Chin checked himself into a hospital.
	He thinks we're going to arrest him.
	It can be very disappointing when we don't arrest him.
	Did you end up arresting one?
	Eventually, but not for that.
	I got it.
	But after that.
	So it displayed to the whole world.
	They've been lying to him for several years.
	Tell you, Shin, you're number two.
	You're number two.
	Yeah, forget Chin's praise.
	He's going to listen to Chin.
	Wow.
	Fat Tony knew he was Dutch.
	So he made him think he was number two.
	But he never, he'd say, how come I don't go to the, how come I, how come I don't go to the commission meetings?
	I'm number two.
	They say, you know, Chin, you're too high profile.
	With that bathrobe and all that stuff.
	If they see you walking in, they'll know where we're having the meetings.
	He is so fucking off base with that whole conversation.
	It's incredible.
	First of all, I knew, and I had a dozen serious meetings with Chin.
	He was extremely smart.
	Extremely smart.
	He was number two under Fat Tony for one reason.
	The boss before Fat Tony, who died.
	I can't think of his fucking name, but it doesn't matter.
	He brought in Chin.
	Chen was the gangster part of that.
	He brought in Chin and he says, I'm going to make Fat Tony the boss.
	It's my decision.
	I want you to promise me you don't kill him.
	Be his number two.
	In time, you'll become number one.
	Promise me.
	Chin promised him.
	He allowed that to happen.
	Chin was five times more vicious, smarter, in every way, had a bigger following than Fat Tony.
	Fat Tony, I loved him.
	He was a great guy.
	So that's the way it felt.
	So he's wrong.
	And then I went to commission meetings.
	I was there just for security when Chin, Fat Tony, came and Paul was there.
	There's even a tape of that meeting when guys are coming out of the house, not inside or anything like that.
	But anyway, then he told Fat Tony, it's time for you to step down.
	And he stepped down.
	And Chin was number one.
	And I was at those commission meetings with John, even after Paul, with Chin.
	And Benny Eggs was his underboss.
	So he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about at all.
	And he wasn't stupid.
	He did this little scam.
	And he put himself in and out of hospitals so that when they call, when he's indicted, and they call doctors and things and that, he's beat it for years.
	He doesn't understand.
	So you can't charge a man who doesn't understand what the charges are, what it is.
	He's mentally insane.
	He played that.
	In my opinion, that's the only thing I didn't like about Chin.
	He played that too much.
	One time, agents came to his house.
	He ran upstairs.
	He got naked under the shower with an umbrella with his mother.
	You do that in front of your mother.
	It's a little excessive for me.
	And if you're not bothered by going to prison, then take your billions or millions, whatever he had, and leave the mafia.
	Fuck the mafia.
	Walk away.
	Somewhere along the line, you have to have a little bit more integrity.
	When my lawyer went on a visit where he was in Texas after he was convicted, my lawyer was representing somebody in the room, and Chin had already been convicted.
	He came out.
	He was talking perfect on his visits and everything else.
	Of course, they found him guilty.
	It didn't matter no more.
	He was talking perfect.
	So my lawyer says, Sam, he's not crazy at all.
	He was talking perfect.
	I heard him the whole time.
	I said, I know.
	It was an act.
	So I don't even know what he's saying.
	So he's absolutely wrong.
	And I can give you story after story, which I'm not going to give you right now, of meetings I have with him that are important.
	Some of them are on my podcast.
	He was as sharp as a tech.
	And I don't know of anybody, anybody in the mafia who would have said, fuck him, fuck him.
	He will kill you in a second, flattened.
	No hesitation with him.
	None.
	Everybody under him loved him.
	Jesus.
	Chin.
	Yes.
	Bobby Manna, Benny Eggs, all of them loved him.
	And he ran a tight ship and a tight family.
	So he's totally wrong.
	And so all of you people who love him, when he talks like that, don't know what he's talking about.
	I would like for me and him to go to a doctor together so I can get my foot out of his ass.
	Because it would take a few doctors.
	Rudy's.
	Rudy, my foot would fit perfect in his ass.
	It's only an eight and a half.
	Can you show us what that would look like with Gerard right now just so we get an actual glimpse?
	No, no.
	Something like that would actually go down.
	It's for the show.
	Wow.
	I got to take a look at it.
	Yeah, we got two minutes left to wrap up.
	Good.
	We got to take a break.
	We're going to take a break to wrap up here.
	Four minutes left.
	So one question.
	I asked, I don't know who this conversation came up.
	It may have been with Chas Palmenteri that we talked about.
	We've done a lot of different things that have you had any conversations or talks with Junior at all?
	Who's Junior?
	Gotta Jr.
	No.
	No talks.
	No.
	You know what the world would be curious to see?
	It'd be very interesting if the two of you guys had a sit down.
	And I know you would never do it.
	I know you wouldn't.
	No, no, no.
	I'm not interested in sitting down with him.
	See, Michael was a different story.
	I don't hate.
	Even when I didn't get along with Michael, I didn't hate him.
	I think that he said certain things that were not true about me, about John, about a few things that he says.
	I saw him now in a new one where he was walking up and down with Chin in the bathrobe.
	Before that?
	And Chin told him, if Junior doesn't make you a captain, I'll make you one of my family.
	Makes sense.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	We don't even want to talk about that.
	Chin didn't have nobody come near him.
	There was a main guy in the Colombo family who used his name, Gigante.
	He had him called in.
	He was this close, this guy to get killed because he used his name.
	So he wasn't the boss.
	He was a powerhouse.
	I mean, and he was tough, but he was pretty fair in different ways.
	I mean, I had a couple of good decisions, and one of the decisions is He there was a whole hit.
	It's a long story.
	I'm not going to get into it.
	But when at the end, he called me down again for a final meeting.
	And I had permission to whack a few people.
	And he said, I want you to do me a favor.
	Two of these kids that you could heard belong to a friend of ours.
	We took him out.
	We take care of his wife and those kids.
	I want to ask you for a favor.
	Give them a pass.
	They were that wrong that he had to ask.
	And I said, okay, I will do that.
	But I want to ask you for a favor.
	He was a boss.
	I was just a pup, acting captain.
	He said, what?
	I said, this kid Scopachi, who gave me all this information and caused this whole thing, is with you people.
	I know now that you know this whole thing.
	You're going to wind up killing him because he came to us and not you.
	Created this.
	What do you want?
	I want you to give him a pass.
	He saved my life, this kid.
	I'll give him a pass, and I'll give those two kids you want a pass.
	That's pretty smart, Sammy.
	He put his hand out.
	We shook hands.
	And nobody got killed.
	And after that.
	So, and it's a whole long story.
	And you can't see that on Patrick's interview.
	You can't see it on my podcast.
	Why don't you put his link below for his podcast so people can go subscribe?
	Gang, if you enjoyed today's podcast, give it a thumbs up and subscribe to the channel.
	Mafia States of America.
	What's that?
	The absolute for Sammy.
	What's the?
	On the show.
	Oh, the what?
	Oh, we got Sammy's.
	Yeah, that's right.
	So we got a merch.
	If you're Team Sammy, we have Sammy's shirts up here now.
	Can you put up the link, Kai?
	Sammy, this is for you, Team Gravano.
	Right now, we have a Team Gravano going on.
	We have a Team Francis going on.
	If you're Team Gravano, go order Team Gravano's shirt.
	Kai, put the link below so people can go order Team Gravano.
	People are asking, when is Mafia States of America going to come up?
	Come out.
	Here's how it's going to work out.
	It's either going to come out in Q4 of 2021 or it's going to come out in 2022.
	But it's eventually going to come out.
	And when we make that announcement, I'm sure the world's going to go crazy.
	Lots of people are upset when I say 2022, but we're working on it.
	We're finalizing it.
	Today, you're going to get a sneak peek of some of the stuff that we're doing, which is going to be exciting.
	But we're looking forward to launching that to the world, Sammy.
	Great.
	And I want to tell the people who are watching over here, listen, it's going to come out in 2021.
	I'm coming out.
	I'm coming here with God.
	Pat, do you want to amend your statement at all?
	That could be...
	By the way, I think it's safe to say it's coming out in 2021.
	That could be October 1st, but that could also be December 31st.
	But it's happening in Q4, 2021.
	And FBI, if you're listening to this, that was a trend.
	Take care, everybody.
	We'll see you on Thursday.
	Take care, Sammy.
	All right.
	Bye-bye, bye bye, bye bye.

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