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Oct. 30, 2023 - Dr. Oz Podcast
42:41
Empire's Star Jussie Smollett Faces Charges for 2019 Attack | Dr. Oz | S11 | Ep 109 | Full Episode
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Breaking news.
Jussie Spolett re-indicted on six new charges for allegedly staging a hate crime.
And caught in the act.
Hit and run accidents you have to see to believe.
Plus, did you believe that you'll ever know what happened to your daughter?
New details in the disappearance of Natalie Holloway.
Why her mother won't give up until she gets justice.
He will strike again.
Coming up next.
Season 11 starts now.
I became a doctor to help people heal.
Now I'm using the same science and medicine to take on true trauma.
Shocking news in the case against Jussie Smollett.
The former Empire star is now facing six new charges of disorderly conduct for allegedly staging an attack on himself.
Last January, Jussie claimed two men yelled racist and homophobic slurs at him, beat him up, poured bleach on him, and left him with a rope around his neck.
This is police body cam footage from Jussie's apartment right after the incident.
The reason I'm calling is because of this .
Okay.
Okay.
Do you want to take it off or anything?
Yeah, I do.
I just want to talk to you.
Show us your answer to one female official defense.
Please, please, please.
Okay.
A month after that, the case took a really shocking turn when Jussie was charged with staging the attack.
And then in March, all the charges against him were dropped.
Until now.
Here with the latest, our CNN analyst and defense attorney, Joey Jackson, and Dr. Oshawa, investigative reporter, Marsky Avocampo.
Joey, how did these new charges come up?
I thought this thing was all done nine months ago.
So it depends who you ask, Doc.
But here's the issue, right?
This is what happens when the superintendent is livid of police based upon a fact that he says this is a whitewash.
His words are not mine in terms of the indictment being dismissed.
Remember the investigation that was done.
Remember the police resources that were dedicated to this case.
And not only do you have the superintendent of police who was livid, you had the then-Mayor Rahm Emanuel go on and just escorciate, at the time, the county attorney's office saying, how could you do this?
And, of course, they were concerned, the mayor's superintendent, because of what it did to their city.
You're talking about people who attacked them based on, you know, this whole racial situation?
This is not Chicago.
And so what happened?
A special prosecutor is now appointed.
The special prosecutor unearthed information that says, hey, there was facts, there were evidence this case should have been prosecuted, and you know what?
In the interest of justice, we are prosecuting anew.
And so now here we are.
He's facing these six charges.
We'll see what happens moving forward.
It was sort of bizarre having that rope still around his neck.
You saw that police cam that sort of caught me off guard.
That always struck me as very odd.
It seems like the first thing you would do is take it off after you went through something traumatic like that.
Jussie is set to be arraigned on February 24th.
He reportedly could be facing up to three years in prison.
What is Jussie's camp saying about these charges?
You know, they are sticking to their guns.
They are saying that he is absolutely innocent.
Jussie's lawyer released a statement questioning the investigation itself that led to these new charges, pointing out that Jussie is actually suing one of the detectives that's involved in the investigation.
And they're also questioning the timing of this, pointing out that the election for state's attorney is in just a few weeks.
So they're saying flat out, this is a political move.
That's all this is about.
The PR part of this may have influenced it as well.
Everyone sort of got embarrassed.
When you get embarrassed, you look for ways to defend yourself, not just in personal issues, but in public issues as well.
We also had the latest in the case of missing Connecticut mom Jennifer Dulos.
After being charged with her murder, Jennifer's estranged husband Fotis Dulos attempted suicide in his garage.
And then ultimately he passed away two days later.
Wow, this is...
I mean, it was so stunning to see this closure, in some ways anyway, to a process that we've been studying on the show.
What happened?
What went wrong?
Yeah, and we can't lose sight of the fact that now five children are orphaned because their mother is gone and now their father is also gone.
You know, Fotis was supposed to appear in court the day that he was found.
He didn't show up for court, and so when officials went to the house to find him, that's when they found him unconscious in the front seat of his Chevy Suburban with the engine running, the garage door closed, and a vacuum hose connecting the tailpipe to the inside of the car.
So initial reports were that he was dead.
There were even media outlets that reported he was dead.
He was not, in fact, dead at that time.
Responders performed CPR on him for reportedly 30 minutes.
They were able to get a faint pulse.
He was taken to the hospital where he was placed inside a hyperbaric chamber, but he never recovered, and two days later, he did die.
Let me explain this to all of you, because, you know, hyperbaric chambers are used in cases like this because they help clear the carbon monoxide from the blood faster.
When you leave your car running in the garage, that's what's killing you.
That carbon monoxide sticks to your blood cells so you can't exchange oxygen.
Even five minutes of exposure can cause brain damage.
Fotis may have been in that car for 90 minutes because he actually was on a call at 10.30 and was found at noon.
That's enough time, plenty of time to cause damage.
Here's the part that's catching me.
I don't know how to make sense as I'll ask Joey.
Fotis' attorney, Norm Pattis, is pushing to continue the murder trial because he says he wants to clear Fotis' name.
How is that possible?
How can I get a murder trial when there's no defendant?
Yeah, so what happens, Doc, is that this generally never happens, right?
Post-humus trials so rare as to be non-existent.
In this case, though, it may not be that much of a stretch, and here's why.
Remember, you have two other defendants in the case.
Who are they?
His attorney friend, right?
Not the one who represented him, but his attorney friend charged with conspiracy to commit murder, meaning he was in on it.
He agreed.
But then you have his girlfriend also charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
So to the extent that you have two defendants who are going to be tried anyway, same evidence, same issues, same detectives, same police statements, same forensics, why not add another defendant, doesn't cost much in terms of judicial resources, and proceed forward.
Now whether a judge will grant that, that's another issue, but it's not that big of a stretch considering those circumstances.
I've never heard of it.
Never thought it was possible.
I get it.
I still think it's sort of taken us to...
We've got enough problems in the court system in America.
We do.
We reached out to Norm Patters for comment.
Didn't hear back in time for taping.
Fotos Toulos' next hearing is scheduled for March 3rd.
He won't be there, obviously.
We're going to keep you posted on this case as it develops.
Thanks very much.
We'll be right back.
Thank you.
From dangerous ear piercings to stealing your identity from public chargers.
I have your bank account.
All because I plugged in.
It just took once to get infected.
Plus, former Saved by the Bell star Lark Voorhees speaks out for the very first time after being shunned by the show.
What would you say to the cast?
I love them.
She sometimes can hear voices.
Lark, are you hearing voices now?
All new eyes.
That's coming up tomorrow.
Imagine you're a pedestrian crossing the street and a car comes out of nowhere and it hits you.
Your body slams against the ground.
You're hurt and in shock.
Then you hear the driver peel away.
Nationally, hit and runs are on the rise with a 60% increase in the last decade.
Today, we're bringing you the most shocking hit and run videos.
Caught on tape, with experts weighing in on everything from what to tell the EMT to how to let your hospital bills get paid for.
And we need your help to solve an open hit-and-run case that made headlines coast to coast.
It all starts now.
It's the story everyone's talking about.
In Mississippi, a young woman eight months pregnant is struck by a hit-and-run driver after leaving her baby shower.
Her baby lost.
In L.A., a driver ran a red light and mowed down this man walking home from work.
The car fled the scene.
In Florida, a cyclist was crossing the street when he was smacked, tumbling onto the hood of the car as the driver sped away.
And then, in the Bronx, New York, An ironic twist that stunned the nation.
A daughter's hit and run almost identically mirrors her mother's deadly hit and run just two years earlier.
It happened right here.
82-year-old Hilda Orochio, who lived there, was packing her car with packages destined for the Puerto Rican hurricane victims.
Her daughter Elizabeth, who lives across the street, was taking a shower.
She heard loud banging on her door.
When she came to investigate, she found her mom in the street, struck by a vehicle, the driver nowhere to be found.
This man turned himself in the very next day.
Then, two years later, Hilda's daughter, Lisbeth, was struck by a hit-and-run driver in this very same location.
Lisbeth survived.
We just saw her get run over in that shocking video, and she joins us now along with former FBI defense expert Steve Cardian, who, as you just saw, is investigating this scene for our show.
So, Lisbeth, this occurred just a few months ago.
Are you doing okay?
Yes, sir.
Well, I'm grateful to be alive, but everything is painful.
Walking out here is painful.
Getting up is painful.
Putting on my socks is painful, almost impossible.
So, as I said, I'm grateful.
I'm here with my children, but it takes a lot to get used to, and watching that was not easy at all.
Take us back to that evening, if it's okay.
What do you remember about the accident?
Every second.
It felt like someone was just pushing me, just someone pushed me forward and I fell.
So I look back to see who hit me, because I thought it was a person, and I see the white reverse lights coming down.
So I instinctively laid down, and the car began to roll over my body, as you saw on the tape, and roll over my legs.
And just when I felt the heat of the car on my head...
And I can't put into words how I felt.
I just figured I was done for it.
The car stopped and rolled over my legs again as it drove forward.
And I tried to get up and I screamed.
The car stopped, looked at me, and then drove down.
I screamed out, you hit me, and it didn't matter.
He just continued to go down the block.
Did you see the driver at all?
I saw the arm.
The window was down.
I saw the arm and a bit of a person.
I couldn't make out exactly, you know, who it was, the details.
But the person saw me.
He pulled over, looked, and then continued to go.
The coward he is.
Steve, from a law enforcement point of view, is there any way a driver would not have noticed rolling over somebody like that?
No, literally impossible that he didn't know he hit someone.
So at our request, Steve worked out a model.
Come on over, Lizbeth.
And this is an art department creation of ours.
I love these guys.
It's a tiny crime scene, but it's a very accurate tiny crime scene.
So Steve, break down what you believe might have happened that night.
Lizbeth, why don't you come over to my side here.
Okay, thank you.
Dr. Oz, the vehicle in question was...
Looked like he was trying to settle in, into the front of the car.
And then, all of a sudden, his reverse lights come on.
He turns around.
He comes walking towards, or driving towards and around the white car.
Then he cuts the wheels.
He's cutting an angle, going towards Lisbeth, who is then blindsided by the rear of the truck.
She's knocked over.
The left rear wheel runs over her knee, right knee, then left thigh, and then takes off.
So the scene, the part that bothers me is that right there, where you actually see the car up a little bit.
What were you thinking as this happened?
And the idea of being underneath this car, with your legs pinned, is you go back or forth, either way you lose.
There's no way of getting out of here without getting hurt more.
Right.
At that moment, I actually saw the rim.
I see the rim going, and I'm screaming in pain and shock, but the car paused when it was on top of my ankle.
And then, as he moved forward, as I said, he went over my leg again.
Excuse me, my thigh.
Let's go back over here, if you want.
Thank you.
Steve, as you try to put all the pieces of this puzzle together, why would someone run away if they saw someone had been hit?
I mean, don't they expect there to be cameras capturing footage and the like?
Yes, you know, one of the reasons, initially it looks like he's trying to parallel park.
He drove up first, then he looked like he was settling to that parking spot.
Then when he drove around, he hit her, knocked her over, ran her over.
So it could be something as much as that, limited sight visibility.
Or, if you notice when she's cutting an angle crossing the street, that's when his reverse lights go on.
Perhaps he saw her, perhaps he wanted to have some sort of social or anti-social contact with her and lost sight of her because she was walking quick, ran over her and then left.
The bigger part of the story for many will be the fact that your mom passed at the same location and that you felt her, I understand, when this was all happening, that she was an angel from heaven protecting you at a time when you probably should have died.
Yeah, literally, I was screaming.
My husband and my daughter ran out because it happened in front of our home.
And my husband and my daughter were cradling me and telling me, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay.
My husband was screaming, someone call 911. And I know I heard them initially, but after a while, there were a lot of people there and I didn't hear anyone.
And my husband later at the hospital told me that I kept screaming my mother's name.
I just kept saying, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy.
Other people confirmed that that's what I was saying.
I honestly don't remember that.
I believe it, but I don't remember.
But on the way to the hospital in the ambulance, I clearly saw her face.
And then it went away.
I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that I'm alive by the grace of God and that He allowed her to come down and just stop that car because I felt the heat on my head an inch more, and I don't know if I would have been sitting here talking to you.
As a doctor, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, Taff.
I admire you for coming forth and not being silent.
I know it's hard to look at that footage again.
You invoked the power of one, by the way, which we talked about this year.
You stood up, you made a difference, and you will save lives.
So let's make sure that everyone knows about what's going on.
By the way, you made the neighborhood safer, so you already made a difference.
There was a speed bump put in, and we're advocating for four-way stops along that block.
Everyone counts.
Everyone counts.
You make your neighborhood safer.
But I want to make the environment safer.
Police need to solve this case.
Remember, this hit-and-run happened on Pittman Avenue in the Bronx on September 22nd of this past year.
If you have any information, be sure to contact NYPD at the number below.
Coming up, the Caught in the Act hit-and-run video we had to watch twice because we could not believe just how deplorable it was.
Get the story behind this video.
That's next.
Every Friday in February, it's Celebrity Superfan Takeover.
Kathy Lee Gifford, Morris Chestnut, Tia Mowry, and Susan Lucci share the stage with their favorite doctor.
Only on Oz.
Every 90 minutes, every 90 minutes, a pedestrian dies from getting hit by a car in America.
That's a lot.
That's why we're investigating today.
Former FBI defense expert and investigator Steve Carty is back.
We're going to go through some more examples, take us through this next shocking clip, and then I want to ask some questions about why this has been happening, all these hit and runs.
Sure.
All right, so we're in a parking lot of a mall.
It's broad day.
There's people around.
There's cars around.
This elderly woman is walking with her cane towards the handicap section.
And there's going to be a van that's going to cut that corner really, really tight.
There it is.
He's going to hit the elderly woman.
She falls to the ground.
Cane flows.
Opens.
He stops momentarily, opens his door.
And you can look over here.
There's all witness.
Nobody sees anything.
Then he decides, well, not bad enough for me.
I'm driving off.
And he leaves the scene.
What is going through the mind of this driver going around the corner hitting a little old lady?
What's this person thinking?
I understand why the accident happens, but what's he thinking right now?
That she's down and he's opening the door?
Well, people try to rationalize, and they decide that, oh, no big deal.
I'm out of here.
Goodbye.
Do people get away with hit-and-runs?
People get away with hit-and-runs all the time.
It's a regular occurrence.
There's a number of reasons why people don't stop.
Number one is that it's very emotional getting involved in an accident.
One of the first emotions that a person's going to experience is panic.
People don't make good decisions during that panic stage.
So they say, I'm out of here.
I don't want to deal with it.
Then some people rationalize, just like probably what happened here, and say, you know what?
She's not really hurt.
I just knocked her over.
Let me get out of here.
Watch.
It's not a minor thing.
No, it's not a minor thing.
By the way she fell, that could have been a fatal accident by all intents and purposes.
Then there's the law enforcement factor, where There's an underlying cause that they're gonna leave right away, whether it be that they're wanted by police, they have a suspended license, they may be under the influence, they have some sort of an underlying crime that causes them to leave.
Thirdly is the moral compass.
Some people just don't have good morals.
Alright, so what are we going to do about it?
Steve, thank you very much.
Alright, let's walk through what every pedestrian should do to protect themselves if they're hit, whether the driver stays or not.
Joining us now is Dr. Kira Smith, who specializes in trauma and surgical critical care.
First up, she says, do not make this common medical mistake if you're hit by dismissing the pain.
I don't care if it hurts you or not, you may not be aware.
Why is this so critical?
Absolutely, Dr. Oz.
This is a great point.
When a victim gets hit by a car, the body can actually go into a state of shock.
We're going to produce adrenaline, and that can mask some of the symptoms of pain.
So somebody may not have pain at that moment.
They may experience pain minutes, hours, or even days later.
So it's really important to address this pain and assess oneself.
I want anyone who is a victim of being hit to assess themselves like I would.
As a trauma surgeon, I assess everyone the same, from head to toe.
So as a victim, ask yourself, does this hurt?
Move on down in a fashion moving from head to toes.
This is going to allow people to make sure they don't miss any injuries.
I would additionally strongly encourage anyone who feels pain, even a day or so out, to seek evaluation from a medical professional.
Alright, next up, you need to be very specific with the EMTs.
And the reason that's important is because they're not going to be able to always predict what happened, but you might be able to.
Absolutely.
Again, specifics are going to be incredibly important.
When the EMTs come to me in my trauma bay, it's the details that are going to be important to me.
How were you hit?
What part of your body?
Did you hear a noise, a crack or a pop?
Where is the pain located on your body?
Can you describe that pain to me?
And not just details about the accident itself, but details about yourself as a person.
Do you have medical problems?
Do you take medications at home?
Because all of those things are going to affect how I can treat you if you do have serious injuries.
And if you're a witness, make sure you talk to the victim because they may not be conscious or lucid by the time EMTs get there.
Absolutely.
Witnesses are so important and have really valuable information.
I would encourage witness first and foremost to keep themselves safe.
If the environment's not safe, if they wander into the street and get hurt, they're not going to be able to help anyone.
But just as you said, elicit that information from the victim.
Name, get as much information as possible, and please don't leave the scene.
Stay.
Give those details so that can get back to me and I can help treat the injuries.
Let me make the final item because it's not a health issue.
It's a simple issue, though.
When it comes to medical bills, even if you're a pedestrian who has been struck, you ought to call your auto insurance or homeowners to check for coverage.
Now you think, well, why would I do that, right?
I wasn't behind the wheel.
But each state is different in their requirements and their limits.
So sometimes your auto insurance will actually cover you if you're hit by a car, even if you weren't driving it.
So check yours today before something happens.
Thanks very much, Kira.
Absolutely.
We'll be right back.
Natalie Holloway's mother is here, still searching for answers in her daughter's disappearance.
And meanwhile, Natalie's suspected murderer is living like a king in a Peruvian prison.
Those details are next.
On today's True Crime, in 2005, high school senior Natalie Holloway was on a celebratory high school graduation trip to Aruba when she tragically disappeared.
She was last seen in the company of fast-living gambler Joran Vandersloot, whose shifting web of lies immediately raised suspicion.
The harrowing twists and turns of Natalie's case captured international headlines, and over a decade later, we're still looking for answers.
Take a look.
May 30, 2005. Every parent's worst nightmare.
While on a high school graduation trip to the island of Aruba, 18-year-old Alabama teen Natalie Holloway disappeared.
Natalie was last seen hanging out at a popular bar with a group of locals, including Dutch immigrant Joran Vandersloep.
After a month investigating, police arrested Joran and two brothers on suspicion of murdering Natalie Holloway.
But with no evidence and no body, the three men were ultimately released without charges.
May 30th, 2010, exactly five years to the day of Natalie's disappearance, Stephanie Tatiana Flores Ramirez was murdered in Lima, Peru, by Europe.
He fled the country, but was apprehended days later in Chile.
In 2012, he pleaded guilty to murder and was sentenced to 28 years in prison.
Natalie was declared dead in 2012, and her case remains unsolved.
Will we ever really know what happened?
Joining me now is Nancy Grace, prosecutor and host of Oxygen's Injustice with Nancy Grace.
So first, Natalie goes missing.
Then five years later, to the day, to the day, Stephanie is murdered.
Do you think that was a coincidence?
You know, because it was with such accuracy, in many cases I would say it was planned, but Jorn Vandersloot does not plan anything.
It's like asking a wolf or a coyote, did you plan To murder that gazelle one year from the day he did it last year?
No, no.
He's a killer.
He's a killing machine.
And I very, very rarely say, I told you.
Because nobody wants to hear that when you're talking about violent crime.
I told you.
But I recall when the Aruban officials, the government in Aruba, remember, his dad was a judge in Aruba.
That's right.
Very, very prestigious job.
I think he covered for Jorn Vandersloot.
He got out of jail down there.
And at that time, I said, I don't know how, I don't know where, I don't know when.
But Vandersloot will kill somebody again.
And he did.
That's the real risk when we don't take out the bad guys.
It really is.
You need closure for the victim's family, but you also to protect future victims.
Oh, Oz, let me tell you, every time I would take a guilty plea when I was prosecuting felonies, people would say, why are you so hard?
Why are you so mean?
But on my mind, I thought, if I let this guy go, a doper with a gun, what's he going to do with that gun in six months?
And it'll be on me.
You have to put violent felons behind bars.
Joran, is any remorse at all?
Just give us a little insight about how this man's mind works.
Remorse?
Are you serious?
I mean, this is the guy that tried to extort, that did extort Natalie's mom for money.
Trying to promise her, I didn't even say it, trying to promise her he would lead her to Natalie's remains.
I mean, think about it all you moms.
Somebody saying, hey, if you give me $250,000, I'll show you where your daughter's bones are.
That's who we're talking about.
I mean, Oz, think about it.
When you go for your jog in Central Park and a little bunny jumps across your path, is your instinct to go grab it and tear its neck out with your teeth?
No, you might want to pet it, but it's a completely different mindset.
As dangerous as he is, what's he doing now?
He's living it up, really, in the Alcatraz of the Andes.
He's in Chalapalca prison because he murdered another young woman that he happened upon at a casino.
He got a little bit of money from Beth.
Natalie's mom.
He took it to go do a casino gambling tournament.
Yeah.
And he thought he was going to win a million dollars.
So he meets Stephanie Tosciano-Flores, gorgeous young girl, brunette, young, about the same age as Natalie.
And they went back to his room to have drinks.
And he caught her looking him up online.
He went berserk and murdered her.
But he's not having a hard time, Oz.
He drinks, he does drugs, and he even got somebody pregnant.
Explain that to everybody.
This is part of the shocking to me.
Pregnant.
Kills one woman convicted of killing her, and I think actually...
He actually has a spawn.
He has a child.
There was a woman, Letty Figueroa, that...
Sold things behind bars.
Somebody left her alone with Jorn Vandersloep and she had a baby.
Yeah, that's what happened.
That's allowed in the Alcatraz of the Andes?
I guess it is, isn't it?
Something, a food for thought.
Now here's the problem with that.
I'm all about a baby.
I'd like four more myself.
But you know what this means.
Let's just get real.
That's what you call an anchor baby.
Now that he has a Peruvian baby, he can become a Peruvian citizen and fight extradition back to the U.S. Think about it.
He'll never have to answer up for Natalie.
He killed Natalie.
He murdered Natalie.
And he's never answered up for it.
I mean, when your child goes on a school trip, Natalie was just a teen girl.
Straight A's, gorgeous, drill team, the work.
Look, look, look!
And she goes to celebrate with all her high school friends.
Everything's fine.
They come home from the bar.
She never makes it.
And he actually is caught on camera laughing because she went into convulsions on the beach.
Laughing.
That's who we're talking about.
Do you believe, having studied this case intensively since it happened, that there will ever be a solution to Natalie Holloway's murder?
Do I ever know actually what happened?
I don't like saying this, but I don't think we will ever know what truly happened to Natalie Holloway.
But I can tell you this.
I swear everything I've got on it.
He took Natalie away.
There were witnesses that saw that.
Part of what he says is true.
He had her out on the beach alone.
He could describe her underwear.
I can tell you that much.
And that on that beach is where she died with Jorn van der Sloot and then he disposed of her body.
I think in the ocean.
Up next, Natalie Holloway's mother is here.
What happened when she tried to visit the mother of her daughter's suspected killer?
Those details are next.
Who knew that eye drops could be used as a lethal poison?
Who knew that eye drops could be used as a lethal poison?
Why wouldn't they just divorce her?
She was more valuable dead.
That's coming up on Thursday.
We've been talking about the tragic disappearance of Natalie Holloway, who vanished while on a high school trip to Aruba in 2005. Natalie's mother, Beth Holloway, joins us now.
I appreciate you being here.
How you doing?
How you holding it together?
I think I'm holding my own today.
I think I'm good.
I've worked hard and particularly the last two years and I think I'm in a good place now.
I think I'm in a good kind of quiet little nest right now.
Do you think about Natalie every day, once a week, every minute?
I think about Natalie every day, and the reason why I do Dr. Oz is I have her senior portrait in my bedroom, and when I leave my home in the morning for work, I always kiss my fingers, tap her on the cheek, and give her a kiss goodbye.
I still do that because I feel like You know, I know I don't have her with me physically, but spiritually I feel like, you know, I feel like she is still such a part of my life, of course.
So, I would have to say, so it's every day, you know.
So Yaron Van Der Sloop, we just learned, has a wife and a child while in a Peruvian prison.
Right.
And, you know, we as Americans, we have to be just totally shocked by that because that would never happen in an American prison, to have a wife and a child.
It's tragic that they allowed these two people to bring this child into the world under these circumstances.
I mean, it's...
Not to get a lot of mentoring with that dad.
And a mom who apparently was doing business of some type with prisoners.
Have you had a chance to get closure at all with Stephanie Flores' family?
I've only gotten to speak with her brother when I was in Lima.
And, you know, because we share the same, I mean, our daughters died at the same killer's hands.
So I felt that that was good for me and I wanted to do that.
I wanted to go there and to just extend myself to them because of, you know, what had happened.
You know, closure is such a hard word to use, but I kind of look at, for them, I think justice is being served for Stephanie Flores' murder, so I take comfort in that, and we have our perpetrator, our loved one's perpetrator in prison.
You recently had a chance to go back to Aruba, which I can only imagine the emotions that you felt when you first went to Aruba, looking for your daughter, then realizing she might not be coming back.
Now when you go back, how does it affect you?
You know, it's funny.
When I went back to Aruba, I didn't know what was gonna happen.
You know, because you've gotta remember, Aruba had such control over me.
They, you know, I was always at their mercy.
I was at the mercy for the government, for the police, for the judicial system.
I mean, for every part of Aruba.
And they held, I felt to me, they held the answer as to what happened to Natalie.
Through some hard work, I had spent two years volunteering at the Red Barn.
It's a place outside of Birmingham that does a lot of horseback riding stable.
And so they do a lot of assisted therapy services.
But what little did I know was all that time that I spent at the Red Barn was really empowering me to take control back of my life and to be able to fly into Aruba.
And when I stepped on the grounds of Aruba for the first time, I felt freedom.
I did not know that I was going to have that gift to me when I stepped back on the island.
So with that newfound freedom, the ability to go to an island that for you has so many bad memories, you did something very brave.
You went to Joran's house.
Were you able to leave a message or connect in any way with his mother?
His father's passed away, I know.
Right.
His father's passed away.
And I know it might sound odd, but to me, I was thinking, now Anita, she's lost her husband, Paulus.
Joran, I think she's washed her hands of him.
And I thought, well, why not?
Why not, at this point, could we not talk from mother to mother and just, you know, I wanted to reach out to her just to see if she would.
She was not home.
Her friend was there, so I was able to leave her friend my contact information.
But, you know, obviously I have not heard from Anita, but I... What would you say to her if she was sitting here where I am?
I'm not, I think it would just kind of be a rolling conversation that we would have.
And I mean, and I think that she and I would, I think we would probably start back at the beginning because when I, you better remember, I was able to get to my daughter's killer within the first few days of his parents.
I mean, I was able to go sit at Anita and Paulus' table.
And I think she would also share the things that she was experiencing or in denial about Euron 15 years ago.
So, you know, I'm not sure.
I think it would just be such a, like I said, a rolling conversation of discovery.
So you had dinner with his parents 15 years ago?
Well, I didn't have dinner with them, but they did invite me into their home.
So you sat with them.
I did.
And what was their explanation of their son when you first met them 15 years ago?
The explanation at that time, they were in such denial.
Anita was in very much denial, and I understand that from a mother's perspective.
She just could not fathom that her son would have done something to Natalie.
The father, he was very, very nervous, very just sweating, and it When I was that close to him, I knew instantly that he had information as to what happened to Natalie.
But I don't think Anita at that point, I think she was just in complete denial.
Isn't that strange now, as far as you know?
She no longer talks to her son?
From what I have heard, she has completely washed her hands of Yaron, is what I have heard.
Up next, does Beth believe her daughter Natalie will ever truly receive justice?
We'll be right back.
The latest news on the case of the missing girls on the bridge.
We know at least three people that know what happened that day.
What investigators now know.
It's rare to get audio like this.
Listen carefully.
That's coming up next week.
We've been talking about the tragic disappearance of Natalie Holloway.
She vanished from the tropical island of Aruba during a high school trip in 2005. Natalie's mother, Beth Holloway, is here with us.
Now when Yoran finishes his sentence in Peru, he could be shipped to the U.S. to face charges for wire fraud and extorting Beth over Natalie's remains.
Would you consider that justice if he was deported here?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And don't get me wrong, I know justice is being served right now, but I fully believe it's being served for Stephanie Flores' murder right now.
But yes, I am so looking forward to the day that he is brought to our soul.
Yes.
And he extorted money from you.
What was the promise he gave you?
He promised that he would give me to sell Natalie's remains, that he had Natalie's remains, and that he wanted to sell them to me.
Oh my goodness.
That's terrible.
And he never followed up in any capacity.
Well, of course, it was all a lie.
And I knew when I stepped into this with Yaron that I think everyone knows, we all know when his lips are moving, he's lying.
But of course, as a parent, you're always, you know, you're all, and it was the same thing when we were in Aruba in 2005. We always felt that just around the corner we were going to have her, or just around that gas station, or just around that brothel, or wherever.
So you still are just ready, you know, just thinking, okay, this is it, this is it.
But, you know, then, you know, it wasn't, but I did feel like It was going to be a win-win situation because, number one, if he was telling the truth by some small chance, I was going to have the recovery of Natalie's remains.
And the other win would be, well, if he's not, I mean, that's extortion.
I mean, that's blackmail.
That's, you know, wire fraud.
So then I felt like we could go get him.
Right.
If it wasn't for murder.
Right, right.
Do you believe that you'll ever know what happened to your daughter?
Yeah, I think it's very possible that if her remains are recoverable, yes, I think it's possible.
If your daughter was here, what would Natalie's message be for the world?
I think her message for the world would be, and I've got to really kind of go out on a limb here for Natalie, but I think that, I think we're both about justice, and I think Natalie would agree that justice is at least being served right now, and to embrace that, and to take comfort in that, to know that he is where he should have been.
He should have been there 2005. See, for me, the big tragedy, in addition to losing your daughter and not having an understanding of what really happened to her, is that the inability of a legal system, and it happens in this country too, to take Yaron out, a bad person out, allow him to go on and do more harm.
And that's why I do these shows on true crime, because yes, being harsh on people who've done wrong seems mean, but it protects countless others.
And if we don't do it, who's going to?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I knew Dr. Oz in 2005. I think it's probably on a tape somewhere that I said he will strike again.
I knew it.
I knew it.
I knew that he would strike again.
He's a monster.
And he is that evil.
God bless you.
Godspeed.
I know you're getting better.
I know it's a lifetime of work.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you, Dr. Oz.
For more information on Natalie's tragic disappearance, please check out Beth's book.
It is well done.
Loving Natalie.
We'll be right back.
Mall Scams.
From dangerous ear piercings to stealing your identity from public chargers.
I have your bank account.
All because I plugged in.
It just took once to get infected.
Plus, former Saved by the Bell star Lark Voorhees speaks out for the very first time after being shunned by the show.
What would you say to the cast?
I love them.
She sometimes can hear voices.
Lark, are you hearing voices now?
All new Oz.
That's coming up tomorrow.
This Thursday on the next True Crime.
Imagine dropping off your precious teenager at college, driving away thinking they'll be safe.
Then imagine finding out a 50-year-old man who just got out of prison has moved onto campus into his own daughter's room, where he starts brainwashing students while sexually, mentally, and physically abusing them.
That's what federal authorities are claiming Lawrence Ray did.
And news of his alleged college sex cult is now shocking parents around the world.
A man who claimed to be a Marine and an FBI informant has reportedly been running a sex cult for a decade.
And according to authorities, he used his daughter's college friends.
Lawrence Ray was arrested February 11th for sex trafficking, extortion, forced labor, and money laundering.
In 2010, the then 50-year-old moved into his daughter's dorm at Sarah Lawrence College right after being released from prison and allegedly started grooming her roommates.
The following summer, Ray enlisted several students to live with him and his daughter in an Upper East Side apartment.
They were reportedly sexually, psychologically, and physically abused.
He even allegedly forced one of the women into prostitution for his own profit for over four years.
Ray reportedly extorted up to a million dollars from his victims, as well as their families, partly by forcing them to falsely confess to crimes, like poisoning him and his daughter.
Did you, in fact, poison me?
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely, I did.
Ray faces a maximum sentence of life in prison if convicted.
That's Thursday on the next True Crime.
Former New York City Police Commissioner Bernie Kerrick will be here revealing how his former friend Lawrence Ray went from being the best man at his wedding to a psychotic con man, terrorizing his family for years.
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