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Sept. 8, 2023 - Dr. Oz Podcast
42:43
Murder She Saw: What This Medium Saw Inside a Murder House | Dr. Oz | S11 | Ep 17 | Full Episode
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Time Text
I'm feeling the energy.
A house that holds secrets.
There's a lot of activity in the room.
And a visit that finally uncovered.
There's so much blood.
Is there more than one murder here?
What really happened inside?
He was watching this crying about the desecration of his body.
They held him under.
He was killed.
This is his grave.
Coming up next.
Season 11 starts now.
I became a doctor to help people heal.
Now I'm using the same science and medicine to take on true trauma.
Today's true crime.
We go inside an eerie looking 19th century mansion with a murderous past.
So much paranormal activity is said to have been witnessed on this property that no one has lived there since the former caretaker and his family fled in 2017. There are so many stories of death swirling around this home that we had to enlist crime correspondent Melissa Moore to investigate.
And we called in medium Anna Raimondi to help unveil the property's gruesome past.
In fact, so many crazy things have been reported that the current caretakers can't stand being there alone.
You won't believe what they say they've experienced.
Take a look.
I started getting like a weird feeling in my stomach.
We heard actually moans and groans.
Footsteps.
Flaming of doors.
Door just heavily slammed in my face.
And I did not go in the house for that when I needed.
I left.
Other people, you know, they get nervous about it and all.
Yeah, it gets a little creepy here by yourself once in a while.
The other night we were here and we heard furniture being moved upstairs with there wasn't any furniture.
Joining us are crime correspondent Melissa Moore and medium Anna Ramondi.
This mansion's been on the market on and off for so many years now.
Did that surprise you?
What do you think about its history, Melissa?
Well, I did some digging into the house and the history, and it's been on the market off and on.
It's never been fully abandoned, though, but then every...
As I was digging a research, I found that a developer actually took possession of the house in 1999, and he did some remodeling, but it seemed like the house was cursed.
Permits weren't going through, but also there's the paranormal aspect.
So neighbors are seeing paranormal activity.
The caretakers of the property Are seeing orbs, so there's definitely activity going on, but I think the biggest deal breaker was the mob hit, the murder, in 2005. It was absolutely brutal.
The victim was butchered.
Oh my goodness.
So, Melissa, I trust you in all things true crime.
Right.
So you came in with a logical mind, like mine actually, trying to figure out, is this impossible?
Why these bizarre activities and what's the underlying cause?
But I recognize it could be something beyond our expertise.
So, Anna, we didn't tell you anything about this house.
Nothing.
I didn't have any information at all.
Not where it was?
Nothing.
Didn't have an address.
Had nothing.
All right.
So with all that, we actually go in there.
And Rita heard about all these alleged spirits of the property.
Why do you think these spirits, if their spirits are staying home, why aren't they going away like most spirits are supposed to?
There's such sadness in this house that they just can't let go of it.
And there's so much pain in the house from the original owner and then obviously the man who was killed in the house and the mob hit.
Alright, so it turns out the Muppet's not the only problem we're gonna uncover.
We decided to send Anna into this mansion where she says she was completely overwhelmed the second she walked in the door.
Now, I can remind you all, she knew nothing about this house before we basically took you in there with no warning.
Take a look.
Whoa.
Something...
Wow.
Somebody was dragged here.
I'm feeling the energy.
He was killed, okay?
But I feel like a stab.
There's a stabbing.
There's somebody sitting on somebody.
They want him to die.
This man does not, he did not want to die.
Blood.
So was there all blood in here?
Like bloody, very bloody.
Where's the water?
I'm looking for water.
They're telling me, he's saying, go to the water, go to the water, go to the water.
There was water.
Yes, there was a pond right outside here.
Right over there?
Yes.
Okay, because I'm hearing, by the water, by the water, by the water.
And then somebody gets dumped in the water.
How many murders?
Is there more than one murder here?
Is this all the same murder that I'm picking up?
Because we know there was one.
Yeah, because it went into the water, okay?
I'm so feeling that there was the pond, yeah, there's water, because he keeps saying the water, the water, that I feel like they held him under.
They held him under.
This is his grave.
This is it.
This is his grave.
This is why we do this every year.
We do flowers and we do this every year.
This is absolutely his grave.
OK, so on the floor.
I feel like there was something on the floor.
The body was on the floor.
There's a lot of activity in the room.
It's almost like they don't even care that they just did this.
Like, they just don't care.
It's just another day.
There's some lighting here.
OK, something really bad.
Something really bad.
There's so much blood.
There's so much blood.
Something was taken out.
Furnace.
This is a new furnace.
This is new.
Okay.
And I don't know.
Something about shoving it in.
Shoving it in.
Was somebody killed down here?
Was this the same man from upstairs?
He was dead already.
They went through all of this to kill this one man?
I mean, listen, this guy has, like, nine lives, because he's running all over.
He's still running all over the house.
He's running.
He runs all over the house.
Do you hear him running in the house?
We've heard footsteps all over the house.
He runs.
Whoever did this didn't know what they were doing.
Okay, they just didn't know.
It was like a butcher job.
He was watching it in spirit, like, because he had passed.
He was watching this going on, crying about the desecration of his body, because it was desecrated.
Anna, it's uncanny you could tell that much without having any of the history.
You know, I walked into the house and all I saw was blood.
It was like it assaulted me.
The feeling of, there was this very frantic energy running around.
It was unbelievable.
We're coming up.
What kind of murder caused that much blood?
And who was the man who was so brutally butchered?
Stay with us.
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They will do anything and everything to get our attention.
Could you be missing them?
On the ground, there is a maple leaf.
Could that be a message?
We can ask for specific things.
Plus, all rise for health court.
I am at my wit's end.
She's losing sleep over her husband's snoring.
It's like a sleep with a beatbox.
All new odds.
That's coming up tomorrow.
We're back with crime correspondent Melissa Moore and medium Anna Raimondi.
You've been investigating this horrific mob hit for quite a while.
Melissa, give us some details of what happened in the mansion.
Well, I found it very interesting that Anna hit on so many key points, and I believe she was...
Communicating with the first victim, which is Robert McKelvey.
He was involved in organized crime, angered a man named Gino Galistro.
So Gino Galistro put a hit on him for $8,000, hiring the hit man who happened to be the caretaker of the mansion.
So his name was Joseph Young.
Joseph Young and a couple of accomplices went together, lured Robert into the mansion, and then overkill is an understatement.
First, they strangled him, unsuccessful.
They stabbed him, unsuccessful.
And then the blood that Anna's talking about is that after they drowned him in the pond, they took him down to the basement and then dismembered him and fed him into the furnace.
Yeah, so when she says there was a lot of blood, they took a hacksaw.
I mean, there would be blood everywhere.
And what's interesting too, when I watched your piece, is that you stated that something's missing.
Well, the furnace is missing where they disposed of his body.
Oh yes, you did mention that.
I didn't understand why.
He was just saying to me some things.
He wanted the whole story told.
Like, this is what they did.
You know, he was watching it as they were doing this because he had died.
You know, they were hacking up his body.
You know, they desecrated him.
And you did use the word butchered.
So I thought that was interesting.
There's no way that she would have probably known this unless she dug deep into the history of this house.
And of course I purposely told you nothing ahead of time because we wanted to go in there, eyes wide open to figure this out.
Robert's murderer, Joseph Young you said?
Right.
What happened to him?
He's serving life in prison and then the mob hit man, the man who hired the hit, is serving 20 years.
And we don't know the other men who were involved?
No, we don't.
Aha.
So, Anna, you went in there.
The energy was...
Overwhelming.
Overwhelming?
Overwhelming.
Not just from the man who was killed, but then you had the energy of the other people that lived in the house as well.
So, you know, I could hear a woman crying.
It was the original owner, the original, the wife of the man who, you know, had purchased the house and the children that lived in there, the older children as well.
What was really freaky and what's not on camera is that Greg, who works, you know, with the camera crew and I got locked into a room.
So I went to open up the door.
It wouldn't move.
He literally walked over to it.
Greg, he's right here.
I know you're one of the uber skeptics, like so many of us are.
I'm a very big skeptic.
Even watching the segments on the show, I was never 100% sure about it.
So the whole day we were shooting, I was always looking for a spirit in the house.
I couldn't find anything.
It wasn't until we were packing up, I let my guard down a little bit, and then something happens.
So Anna's trying for the door, she's pulling on it.
It's bowing out at the bottom, so it almost felt like it was bolted at the top, and the door's bowing out at the bottom.
I reach for it almost effortlessly, and it opens up.
Someone didn't want Anna to leave that room.
Are you still a skeptic after this?
Not anymore.
I never thought I'd even begin to believe in this stuff, but some of these tales are...
If I wasn't personally involved in making sure you did not know about this house, I would assume you went back through there, read it up, knew everything, and then created, confabulated a story.
You know, I think that a lot of people who may walk over the threshold in that house would probably feel something.
Now, they may not be able to see what I saw and, you know, feel it the way I feel it, but the house, the energy is so high.
Like, you could...
I could see them.
I could feel them.
They're very present.
And they don't want you to leave because they want to keep talking to you?
I think they just wanted to keep talking to me because I could actually communicate with them.
You know, they're not at rest.
Joining us next are Rick and Elizabeth.
They're the caretakers of the Kreishner mansion.
For the moment, anyway.
They're the caretakers.
They both say they've had several encounters with restless spirits who they believe are refusing to leave the property.
And coincidentally, they both knew the murder victor that Anna just encountered.
Robert.
Yes.
You actually were a classmate of him.
Yes.
And you seem to even get a little emotional as she was recounting the details of the murder.
Yes.
Did you know all those details?
I've read about it, but hearing somebody to actually explain it, it struck an earth.
Why do you stay in the house if there's a possibility that someone you knew who was murdered there might not have crossed over totally?
I personally don't feel threatened by him.
Maybe because we hung out and rode bicycles together as a child.
So it just doesn't scare me.
So you said you've witnessed other strange things, Rick.
Things that you don't understand.
Yes.
Correct.
Can you give us a little bit of an idea?
Tell us about...
Are these from Robert or from somebody else?
We don't know.
We think it's both.
We think it's the original...
Both?
It's Robert and the original people from the house.
So what do you do when you're sitting there and you hear these things, paranormal things happening?
There are two of you, so you know it's not just in your mind.
Yes.
So we just, did you hear that?
Did you hear that?
Yeah.
We look at each other and say, did you really hear that?
And then he usually wants to leave.
I usually get freaked out sometimes.
I'd be freaked out.
I don't understand how you're not freaked out by this.
Slabbing doors, locked doors, footsteps.
I got used to it, to be honest with you.
It is a beautiful old house.
And what about these orbs I heard that you're, you actually brought us some evidence.
Yes, we've caught orbs.
Oh, my goodness.
Is it that same spot all the time?
No, it actually...
They move.
They move.
Oh, the blue, on the stairs there, the blue thing.
Yeah, there's four orbs in them pictures.
The white dot with the blue.
And actually move five pictures there, they move to five different locations.
If you follow all the pictures, they move with a circle.
I don't understand how this is impossible.
We've actually got other evidence, too, of some figures in the windows and stuff like that.
We've got some pictures and stuff like that.
Besides the noises, we've caught some photos.
I want to dive more a little bit into this other family besides Robert and understand a bit more what the heck is going on here.
So up next, Anna's not surprised at any of this.
She says that the mob murder victim, Robert McKelvey, is definitely not alone in that mansion.
Who else is there?
Stay with us. - Oh my goodness. - Tainted Alcohol.
Laced with methanol.
How a vacation turned deadly.
They told me I had till 3 p.m.
to come up with the money to get a cremated.
I would never receive my mother's remains.
All new Oz.
That's coming up on Tuesday.
We're back with medium Anna Raimondi and crime correspondent Melissa Moore, along with mansion caretakers Rick and Elizabeth.
We've already seen Anna's powerful reaction when she first entered the mansion, where she says she came into contact with the 2005 mob hit victim Robert McKelvey's spirit.
But Anna says that Robert is far from alone in that mansion.
She says the original family has never moved out.
Take a look at the rest of her visit.
This house is crying.
There's like, there's crying in that house.
There's a younger man here and he's very depressed because his brother is, there's a lot of sibling rivalry going on.
I don't know if he gets hit in the head or he shoots himself, something happens.
But I feel, it didn't happen in this house though.
I don't feel like, he didn't die here.
I feel like he died someplace that if I stood on top I could see it.
And he's crying.
Both?
You got three men crying in here.
Feels like there was a woman who stayed in this room and she keeps pointing over there.
What was back there?
Balthazar's house.
The father's house was on the hill.
Because she keeps saying, this is not my house.
That's my house.
And she's saying arson.
So did the house burn?
Yes.
The older man, he's crying.
He's crying because this was what he lived for.
Not his kids.
He lived for an empire.
Yeah, the three houses in the factory right down on the water.
So one of the brothers died at that factory?
Yes, yes.
Did he commit suicide or did his brother kill him?
It was suicide.
Supposedly suicide, but there is a rumor of his brother.
His brother had something to do with it, but I don't think his brother killed him.
Okay, do people talk about the woman who they see up here?
Yes.
Okay, because from the car I could see a woman.
Stand in.
And she stands sometimes by herself, and sometimes a man stands with her.
I think the man is the old man, but he stands with her because he's crying over.
So there was the factory.
The factory was right where those trees are there.
He's crying that his empire no longer exists.
So he was like the lord of the manor.
He owned this whole town.
Which is how he felt.
He felt like lord of the manor, okay?
Like he was king.
It was finished, and then he was gone.
My goodness.
So, Melissa, what did you discover about this family's past?
Well, this house has a lot of history.
This was actually a twin house.
The father that Anna spoke about made this empire in fireproof bricks, as you also talked about.
So, he was living for his dynasty.
He was living for his empire.
And he died a year after he built these three mansions, his own, the twin mansions.
And one of them burned down, which you said arson.
That was interesting.
That was Edward's house, and he died from suicide in the factory.
The house that Anna and the caretakers are living in now is actually Charles' home, and he died of natural causes, but I can see why they're still trapped in this house.
There's also rumors that there was a chef that was killed in that house.
Oh my goodness.
Anna, did you experience this family as described?
Yeah, the energy of the house, it was so occupied.
You know, you could feel, you know, the man, you know, the lord of the manor, so to speak, and his pain that this was not sustainable.
With the two brothers, there was animosity.
You know, there was anger over the two of them.
Rick and Elizabeth, what do you think about all this?
Well, there is a lot of stories from there.
The whole Chrysler family had a lot of turmoil between them because of the business.
And as soon as the father died, the brothers sort of both took over.
And there was a lot of animosity, I guess.
I must say, I think you've changed some minds today.
If you or someone you know lives in a murder house, document your experiences, like this wonderful couple has done.
Send us the details, the pictures, the video.
Go to DrRoz.com forward slash crime hunters and we'll see if Anna can help you too.
We'll be right back.
Today, an exclusive update on a story we've been covering since the beginning.
Since their investigation into one of the most dangerous modern-day cults hidden in the suburbs of Albany, New York, its leader, Keith Ranieri, was arrested and locked behind bars for brainwashing, starving, and even branding his initials into the flesh of women.
But today, brand new details about this case are emerging, with questions surrounding the safety of former members.
Does Keith's conviction really mean the end of NXIVM? Or could this small-town cult that shook the country to its core still be a threat?
One woman says yes.
Keith's ex-girlfriend and NXIVM whistleblower Tony Natalie joins me now.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you, Dr. Ross.
Thank you for having me.
I should tell everybody, the last time you were here, Keith had not been convicted, right?
Correct.
You were in fear, obviously, because everyone else was in fear.
How do you feel now knowing that He's not there anymore?
He's not able to threaten you?
How's your life changed?
I have a sense of validation that I did not have before, having to have him arrested and found guilty.
The PTSD that you experience as a doctor and you understand through something like this, it doesn't go away.
It's better and things are moving in the right direction, but it's not over.
Let's unwrap this a little bit.
First off, is he remorseful at all?
You said earlier that To my producers that when he was in the courtroom he would actually signal to you using You know, his fingers.
Describe what happened at the trial and the hearings that reflect how he's thinking about you as a person.
I didn't, there was only a few of the hearings that I missed.
I was at the trial every second, every minute, and what he would do is he would use his middle finger, and in fact, and I won't do it for the audience, and use it to push his glasses up.
And then he would push up his glasses to kind of signal that to me.
And look at you while doing it?
Oh, glare at me while he was doing it.
So I would brush my bangs back with my hand to let him know that this childness, the act that he was doing was, I get it, but look where you are.
Yeah, but look where he is, but it doesn't mean that you're safe.
I should say, Toni Bravely has been working with our show since the story of NXIV and Brooke, but the one thing she wouldn't ever talk about Yes.
Yes.
talking about this now.
Sure, sure.
So what was the process of DOS?
So the distilling down of individuals started with finding people that had a crack or didn't have a strong family to be supportive of them and look for their insecurities.
And those were the women that he would select to bring into this organization.
So he was grooming, from the larger group, the few that would ultimately become his disciples, but his slaves, really.
Very much so.
He's a predator on every level.
I understand that suicide was something that Keith felt was honorable.
Yes.
Do you believe any of the women who had been Groomed, filtered to become his sex slaves, or even others in the organization, might have killed themselves for him.
I believe that through his teachings in one of the modules called the Suicide Honorable, they share with, they teach, if you're no value to your family, isn't it more honorable for you to not be in this world than to cause harm to your family?
Now, there's been two deaths that we're aware of.
One girl who Has not been found.
Her body's not been found.
And they had no idea that he was the head.
This is the part that's so confusing.
And by the way, Tony and Natalie's book is called The Program.
That's Keith Raniere's picture on the cover.
Yes.
You chronicled the eight years that you dated this man.
You had a relationship with him.
Yes.
When did he crack?
When did he go from someone who had a seemingly good idea of getting people to understand how they could change their lives to...
And maybe he wasn't a good person.
I don't know that.
But he certainly went from bad to evil at some point while you were with him.
Yes.
So...
I... I, um...
I realized when other girls started coming to me after I had left, I became a bit of a lightning rod for people to come to.
Because one of the modules he teaches, called The Fall, is what is a suppressive.
And even in the trial, one of the girls that was a witness said, well, what's the worst thing that could happen?
And she said, well, I could become a suppressive.
And they said, what's a suppressive?
And she said, Tony Natale, that's a suppressive.
This is a young girl that I never laid eyes on.
But what is a suppressive?
What made you a suppressive?
Why is Tony Natalie the bane of his existence?
Because I laughed.
Because I didn't follow him.
Anyone that goes outside of the realm of his teachings or his beliefs that he doesn't have control over.
With Keith, it's all about control.
And when he can't control someone, he has to destroy them.
Let's talk about destruction and the power he has to do that.
You alluded to this earlier.
I want to ask you very directly.
You believe even though Keith is behind bars, NXIVM is far from over.
Yes, very much so.
How could NXIVM hurt you?
How could it hurt others?
Well, it's my understanding he was recently caught with a cell phone in prison.
In prison?
In prison, yes.
So the question is, A, how did he get the cell phone?
And B, who's he calling and why?
What does that mean for you and other suppressives who have escaped?
It means we still have to be careful.
We still have to be diligent.
We still have to be aware.
And hopefully more people now that he's in prison will step forward with information.
Last time you were here, I could feel the fear.
Yes.
How does it feel for you now, knowing that you were successful, that the power of one person to stand up and say, I was closest, man.
I know him better than anybody.
I'm telling you, it's not good.
Now that the world really understands who Keith Winery is, how does it make you feel?
It feels like justice is finally served.
The fact that 12 individuals.
I mean, Dr. Oz, you were the first to give us a platform on a national stage to hear this and to have Twelve people that were able to understand this very convoluted story, bring it down to, I think in five hours, they found him guilty.
When you came on the show, I was impressed by how brave you were with your physical life, but I also understood that you were going to get sued or being threatened with that.
We received letters of a threatening nature as well.
I think the legal system doesn't always protect the victim.
That's why I'm so passionate about People step it up and say, hey, I'm here.
There are probably others around me.
Come join us because together we can actually overcome whatever corruption might be out there.
It's been reported that Keith Raniere maintains his innocence and his lawyer's plan to appeal his conviction.
I want to thank Tony for sharing the story.
The program that you talk about is unbelievable.
It's called Inside the Mind of Keith Raniere and the Rise and Fall NXIVM. Look for it.
That program.
You'll want to understand more about it.
Be right back.
I'm so honored you did my last time here.
Coming up, a truly inspirational example of the power of one.
Meet the grieving parents whose heartbreaking police sparked a lot.
A message will change your dang thoughts.
It's a tragic story that has gone viral.
All over social media, people are reacting to a heartbreaking plea from working parents after the sudden death of their eight-year-old son.
Their story is an incredible example of the power of one.
Proof that you have the power to inspire others to change the world in a meaningful way.
On September 3rd, millions of people logged on to LinkedIn, ready to network, but found themselves gripped by two parents' heartbreaking posts.
There were photos of a happy family, twin boys smiling, laughing, but JR and Jessica wrote that they were grieving the sudden loss of one of those boys, their eight-year-old son, Wiley.
Wiley seemed to be sleeping quite late.
Later that morning I became suspicious that sleeping in had lasted too long.
As I pulled the blanket back and I traced the deep purple color of lividity, I felt for a pulse and somehow felt surprised by the cold skin I touched.
I started to call 911 but hung up because there was a more important call I needed to make.
When I got the call from my wife, I was sitting in a conference room with 12 people in the office talking about PTO policies.
When I answered with, hey, what's up?
Her reply was icy and immediate.
JR, Wiley is dead.
The couple went on to detail the chaotic scene at home that included a rush of first responders preventing them from seeing their Wiley.
Two and a half hours passed incredibly slowly while we begged for the ability to hold our son's hand, body, touch his hair.
We were finally granted this opportunity, but our time was limited.
It was not the way a parent should have to see their child, but it was all we had.
I laid down next to him in the bed that he loved, held his hand, and kept repeating, What happened, buddy?
What happened?
Wiley's parents believe their son's death may be related to a previously diagnosed mild form of epilepsy.
JR and Jessica's post resonated not just for their tragedy, but for their personal plea.
Many have asked what they can do.
Hug your kids.
Don't work too late.
If there's any lesson to take away from this, it's to remind others and myself not to miss out on the things that matter.
If you are a parent and have any capacity to spend more time with your kids, do.
When it ends, there's just photos and leftover things and time is no longer available to you.
You will not regret the emails you forgot to send.
JR and Jessica are here today with a vital message for all of us.
You guys okay?
Yeah.
It's a lot to watch.
Why was it so important for you to be here today?
I think there's this incredible shock when you lose a child overnight in the way that we did.
It was completely unexpected.
We had no idea that that was even possible, that it could happen like that.
And so to give explanation to our friends and family, how do you go from having this incredibly happy, healthy eight-year-old to nothing?
I had so many people call me and say, are you kidding?
Is this a joke?
And I was like, no, of course it's not a joke.
Like, first of all, who jokes about that?
And secondly, of course not.
But the disbelief is so real for people that it's impossible to think that we could lose someone so fast who's so young.
And I'm sure it's still raw for you, but at least you've had some life experience to cope.
How about Oliver, which is Wiley's twin brother?
How is he coping?
Yeah.
Oliver is actually doing really well.
He has lost his best friend and so he's desperate to hang out with other kids right now.
But he's in school and he's back in soccer practice and so he definitely has a good support network of kids around him.
He's just now starting to figure out how to talk about it and he is the sweetest kid because he says oh yeah that's Wiley's or yes oh Wiley and I used to do this and so he brings up these fantastic memories for us as a family on his own which is so lovely to see that he's able to integrate his history there.
Is he able to articulate that he misses his brother?
Yes, and that's about as far as I think he can go right now.
He will say he's missing him, and we see him missing him, but I think right now it's about as far as that goes.
I mean, the good news I think for him, even though he lost his best friend, is that he now has previously had split attention from two parents who We're very busy, and now he has complete attention from two parents who are much more focused on him than we were before.
I've heard you describe it as a powerful triangle now.
Yeah, I mean, that was a big change for us.
We'd always been a family of four.
It was twins, and it was like two groups.
We had the twins, and we had us.
And then we came together now and realized, you know, now it's a triangle, just the three of us together.
Is that what that is on your forearm?
Oh yeah, so we did decide to go ahead and get tattoos to represent our new family.
So JR has one, I have one.
Wiley's favorite color has been blue for many, many years.
And so we decided to color it blue so that while he no longer is a part of the family unit, it will always be colored by him.
He's coloring it.
So I know it's going to take a few months to really work out exactly what might have happened because it's such a strange process, an eight-year-old dying suddenly.
But you think it's something called sudden unexpected death in epilepsy, something that I've learned a lot about.
I thought it was extraordinarily rare.
It's not.
What did doctors tell you about the risks associated with it?
I think Wally just had one minor episode of a small seizure.
That we're aware of, yeah.
I mean, his type of epilepsy was meant to be one of the most benign.
It was actually called benign Rolandic epilepsy.
And the doctors told us, like, it's the best type that he could have, and it's supposed to resolve by the time he was in his teenage years.
He throws out of it.
He does, yeah.
It's just supposed to happen at night.
And the only reason we found out That he had it was we were staying in an Airbnb and it had hardwood floors and she heard a thud upstairs and he had fallen out of his bed and she went upstairs and found him having this seizure.
He was the only one who ever saw.
That was about nine months before he died.
And after the diagnosis, you know, they were very clear.
We talked to multiple pediatricians and neurologists.
Just let him be.
Don't medicate him.
Don't do anything.
And it is fairly rare.
It's something like one out of 4,500 kids with epilepsy, but it can happen to any kid who's had any seizure.
It can happen to adults, too, where it's one in a thousand.
Yes, much more common in adults.
And you're a physician, so you had insights into this.
Cameron Boyce, the Disney star who died in July, We believe died from the same thing.
So here's what I want to do today.
At least make the pain you're going through to talk about this useful.
I want everyone as a child with epilepsy to hear me clearly.
Because many doctors don't ever warn families about the risks of sudden unexpected death and epilepsy.
Because the philosophy is, why share terrifying news when you can't do anything about it anyway?
But I'm not sure that's true anymore.
It can't happen with anyone with epilepsy, but there are things we can do.
And while we can't get rid of all the risks, there are things that are effective, right?
Yeah, so there's definitely a list of criteria and risk factors that are associated with a higher risk of SUDEP occurring.
Clonic seizures and the frequency of clonic seizures being among those risks.
The seizure that I did witness my son have was clonic.
So the more severe the epilepsy, the higher the risk is.
There's new studies being done.
The research is really limited and it's gonna stay unexplained until we have more information.
But why not just have a monitor?
So this is a great question.
So there's a wearable tech and there's alarm pad monitors.
These are new.
Not every physician knows about them.
Not everyone recommends them.
At the moment, both wearable tech, there's a watch.
And the alarm, like a mattress pad, they only detect chronic seizures.
So if you're having a more minor form of a seizure, it's not going to be detected by that technology.
But if we don't utilize the technology, and there's not enough people actively using it and collecting data from it, the technology will not get better.
So I do think, I wish that we had had that.
I don't know that it would have changed the outcome for my son.
We'll be right back with JR and Jessica's advice for parents at home.
Welcome back.
Last month, parents J.R. and Jessica suffered an unimaginable loss when their eight-year-old son died in his sleep.
Their viral message to make time for your children has inspired millions and exemplifies the power of one.
So you wanted to inspire parents to hug their kids a little tighter, to send one last email.
Are you finding solace, I hope you are, in knowing that it's working?
Yeah, I think the big thing we're seeing is people reaching out, as we've done with our own son Oliver, and just having a perception shift, which is, I'm not saying don't work or stop working, because most of us can't do that, but just recognize that when you're feeling frustrated with that child, That it's important time that you have, and make those little adjustments, make those little changes, and maybe just the extra five or ten minutes are just the way you respond.
One of the biggest regrets I have is the night before Wiley died, I yelled at him and made him cry.
And I really didn't need to do that, you know?
He was doing something that was frustrating and annoying, but it was one of the last Interactions we had and I could have been softer with him.
So we're trying to be softer now with Oliver in ways that maybe we weren't before and we're hoping others to do that as well.
So you wanted to inspire parents.
Yeah.
Without question, you found some effectiveness there.
Do you take solace in the fact that you've been able to influence families?
And I've got, you know, tons of quotes over here.
I mean, people written to you.
Do you feel like you've accomplished your goal by writing about your son?
You know, it's a tough answer because it doesn't bring Wiley back.
To sugarcoat it, that's the deep down feeling.
You know, we've heard stories of people who've, like, said, hey, I'm not going to take this promotion, or I'm moving back to my family, or, you know, I canceled meetings this week and I put one-on-ones on the calendar with my daughters.
And that stuff, it feels really heartfelt, and that's the stuff we're trying to do now with Ollie.
So that's been good.
So I want to read one comment on social media.
Charlie came down to our room four times last night.
Four separate times.
I got progressively frustrated with him for waking everybody up.
And then dot, dot, dot.
A genuine heartfelt thank you to JR and Jessica for giving me the power to recognize the privilege of having my sons here in my arms to be here to wake with me.
And that was the goal, right?
You don't know what you have until you lose it.
When you see a post like that, Jessica, what's that like?
You know, parenting is kind of relentless, right?
They wake up in the middle of the night, they're sick, you have a fever, you deal with this.
It's so touching to know that someone can take a step back from that after what we've been through and recalibrate and say, you know what, we have definitely implemented in our own household a more tender approach to caring for our other son because He's there.
And we can.
And Wiley isn't.
The most powerful line for me was when you said, you're not going to regret not sending that extra email.
Right?
If that is distracting you from spending time with your kids, that you're like, just one more, I just have this one more email, right?
I regret that, right?
And I know that if I had waited another half hour until after they were asleep, or if I had waited until they went to school, it would have been fine, right?
There's no urgency to that.
It would have been fine.
But for all the parents who have changed their views of the time they spend with their kids, thank you for spending the time with us and for putting yourselves out there.
God bless you.
Thank you.
Important message.
Very fast.
A friend in crisis.
You're a ticking time bomb.
A wake-up call.
Before it's too late.
The choice is yours.
That's coming up on Monday.
Welcome back.
Last month, parents J.R. and Jessica suffered an unimaginable loss when their eight-year-old son died in his sleep.
Their viral message to make time for your children has inspired millions.
It exemplifies the power of one.
Joining us now is Pastor Cora Jakes Coleman.
She's a preacher and mother who's read the Post and wanted to be here today.
She's read your Post, actually, and was impacted by them.
What do you have to say to Jessica and J.R. about their grief?
Well, first again, I'm so sorry for your pain.
I think the three things that we get through grief is to hold on to our peace.
So they rest in peace.
And we cannot allow them to rest in peace if we don't find peace for ourselves.
Another thing is what you all are doing.
You're turning your pain Into a powerful movement and moment for other people.
And then just giving yourself a moment.
Be angry.
Be upset.
Don't let anyone rush you.
Don't let anyone tell you it's not okay.
Grieving doesn't end.
You just get stronger.
So my son's name is Oliver as well.
So when I read the story, it was particularly pointed just because of the name similarity.
But I thought if it's okay, I'll ask Pastor Cora to share three good ideas of how parents can act on what you're urging us to do.
Spend time with our kids.
Quality time.
So come on up here, Pastor Cora.
We're going to walk through here.
Number one item is short bursts of undivided attention.
This is like interval training.
Yes.
I love it because you can do this anywhere.
You can do this at night.
I call it mommy and me time.
My daughter and I will sit for maybe 10 minutes and read about her body and her life.
And we talk about all of the drama going on at school.
And so you can find a pocket in time to just sit down and fully devote yourself To your children, I think it's very, very good.
Number two, drive connection in the car.
I have always loved the idea of using the car because everyone's sort of focused on something outside of the relationship.
Absolutely.
I'm the school bus, so I've got this down.
Me and my kids, we do affirmation songs in the morning.
We do our prayers in the morning.
We talk about what our goal is for the day in the morning.
And so it's like that seven-minute drive of just boost and encouragement for them to go after what they need to go after.
And third, make use of phantom time.
Explain what phantom time is.
Well, I call these angel moments and memories.
So my mom used to leave notes in our lunch boxes and things like that.
Or my dad would leave videos for us if he was going out of town.
So it's just really like I'm a night owl.
So if you're up at like 1 or 2 in the morning, write a nice letter down for your kids.
Leave it in their lunch box or on their nightstand.
A video they can watch in the morning is really, really helpful.
Nice to see you, Dodd.
You can read lots more about Cora's advice in her book, Ferocious Warrior.
I want to thank you for being here.
Thank you.
And I wish you the best.
Thank you.
God bless Oliver.
Hope he has a wonderful time with the triangle.
Yeah.
Remember, the power of change lies in the power of you.
Just one person with one voice speaking the truth.
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