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Oct. 17, 2024 - On Brand

02:19:08

OB #81 - Jordan Peterson 3: Tokyo Grift

Jordy Petes returns to Stay Free with some new things to be wrong about! Al & Lauren on Bliss of the Abyss Support us on Patreon! Buy a magnet made by Lauren!

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	This is Propaganda Live.
	I only suggest how to think and how to vote.
	Extraordinary cultural moment.
	Already iconic.
	Already iconic.
	We love you.
	You're welcome here.
	Where did this guy come from?
	It's like he's been doing it for ages.
	He's very confident.
	Plainly, and this is a matter now of fact and record, I'm right wing.
	I feel that Christ may have had a better vision.
	Is this misinformation or is Vivek Ramaswamy in the lavatory?
	That's a sort of like a poet.
	Is this Eminem?
	Man, if we didn't come together in that stream, I'd say it was just the key.
	Now, these are the kind of conversations I think that the legacy media can no longer compete with.
	Win, win, win, win, win, win, win.
	This is On Brand, a podcast where we discuss the ideas and antics of one, Russell Brand.
	I'm Al Worth, and each week I go through an episode of Brand's show with my co-host, Lauren B. That's me, Lauren B. And, oh no, I started to stretch, oh god, ah!
	I didn't mean to!
	And I, and those that have no idea what we will be covering today, but it's usually pretty bad.
	It's almost invariably bad, which is why we do the good thing before the bad thing.
	Lauren, what is your good thing before the bad thing this week?
	Well, actually, do you want to go first?
	You go first.
	I can.
	I absolutely can.
	So if you will recall, around when we first started doing this show, I went to a wedding of my friend Matt, who is my Wow!
	Yeah, a whole thing.
	It's a whole thing.
	He's now a parent and as appropriately shell-shocked as that should make you.
	Um, but no, it's just, it's been an absolute delight.
	Um, and, uh, you know, both, like, all of them are fine and safe and happy.
	Um, things seem to go off pretty much without a hitch.
	And yeah, it's just a very cool thing.
	I'm like, yep, that is, that is awesome.
	So, um...
	Congratulations!
	Yes!
	Good job!
	Congratulations, indeed.
	Good job, everybody.
	Commatulamis.
	There we go.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Commatulamis.
	Now none of the words make any sense.
	Good.
	Yes, yes, exactly.
	And yeah, welcome to the world, Baby Kai, which I think is a very nice name as well.
	So yeah, yeah, just very good thing.
	Very good thing.
	Yes.
	How about you?
	There we go.
	There it is.
	And what is your good thing, Lauren?
	My good thing is a combo.
	And so, let's see.
	I know I mentioned it kind of briefly because we had a bunch of stuff to talk about because we also talked about the stream, whatever, which was really, really fun, by the way.
	Thank you so much, everybody, that showed up.
	Oh, my gosh.
	I'm sure you'll address that in a sec.
	But...
	And so why I was like kind of pooped on the stream was because the event before on that Saturday was really, really cool and really good.
	The CPG Publishers Fair was great.
	And it just it was a delight, which...
	So that's the Chicago Printer's Guild, right?
	Chicago Printer's Guild, yeah.
	Chicago Printer's Guild had their annual publisher's fair, and massive thanks to everyone that put it together.
	So me and Mike had a really...
	We had a really nice event, and we've got another one coming up this weekend in Milwaukee.
	Nice!
	We haven't been to...
	The event is called Ink Curds, and a friend of ours puts it together.
	We did it, I think, a couple years ago.
	I think we did the first one.
	I haven't been back to Milwaukee since then, which is stupid.
	It's only like an hour and change away, and it's a lovely place to visit.
	So if you are in the Milwaukee area, it's going to be tight.
	I think it's going to be really cool.
	The place is called Enlightened Brewing.
	It's at a brewery.
	It always sells.
	Good stuff.
	Yep.
	Let's see.
	This Saturday, which is October 19th from 12 to 6.
	And if you are not in the Milwaukee area, I mentioned in passing...
	That I'd have some spooky things available on the sharp, which is in the...
	Yeah, right?
	Link in the description will take you to the maggots, which will get you to the shop.
	So I still have...
	I have two hand of glory.
	It's like Halloween hand of glory spooky things left.
	Nice.
	Because folks were digging them at the event last week.
	And so you can get that.
	And actually...
	Oh!
	Oh my gosh.
	I still have the Don't Talk to Cops.
	And also this one's heavily embroidered, this particular little stuffy pillow.
	And I don't know when my sewing machine is going to be back in commission to make more of these.
	So get them while you can!
	Get them while they're hot!
	Uh, yeah.
	And we got the Be Nice or Leave after Dr.
	Bob, one of these guys.
	But yeah, these are on the shop too.
	But, so if you really want to ruin, if you want to ruin Milwaukee's day and get all the good stuff, things are on the shop.
	Shipping anywhere, asterisk, if there's an issue, email me, madebylaurenb at gmail, and we will work it out.
	Yes.
	Because the shipping, I still...
	It's a mystery.
	Yeah, cool.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But yeah, it was really great.
	And I mean, yeah, so that's gonna, I don't know, it's that time of year, but also these feel more like spooky season.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Cool events and cool stuff.
	Yeah!
	Out of the house!
	Out of the house.
	That does feel good.
	That does feel good.
	Yeah, usually.
	Sometimes.
	Alright, we've got a show to do, but first let's thank a new patron.
	So, Big Air Mountain Biking, you are now on Awakening Wonder.
	You are indeed an awakening wonder.
	Thank you very much!
	You're so brave!
	Oh my!
	Very brave.
	I'm fully supportive.
	I will watch videos of you doing that.
	Is that a handle?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I hope I get to watch you succeed!
	Yes, yes.
	It's incredible.
	Seems terrifying in many ways, but good on you and enjoy and thank you very much.
	If you do enjoy the show, please leave us a five-star review wherever you're listening and please do share us with your friends, loved ones, or anyone you think might enjoy this project of ours.
	It would be hugely appreciated and goes to great lengths in helping us continue.
	And if anyone wants to support us financially in what we do, become an awakening wonder, join the Invisible Hand, or donate on an elevated tier.
	Head to patreon.com slash onbrand, and you will have our eternal gratitude.
	It is this which allows us to be editorially independent and ad-free.
	As a patron, you will also get a shout-out on the show and access to our patron-only aftershow off-brand.
	And yes, indeed, this week we had our monthly live stream, and it was so much fun.
	Thank you so much to everyone who joined us.
	We had some really great questions, really great chat in general, really good fun.
	Yeah.
	No notes.
	10 out of 10.
	Yeah.
	And you know what?
	I was thinking about like, if there's any, I don't know, I was going to put the call out.
	Y'all, I don't know, discuss amongst yourselves.
	What do you want to know from us?
	I think.
	Not just about Russell, but like in general.
	Yeah.
	Any questions?
	Maybe next month.
	I did tattoo for 11 years.
	Yeah, that's true.
	There's a lot of silly things on the internet about tattoos.
	I cannot.
	Yep, yep, yep.
	Maybe there's a subject to ask about, right?
	Yeah, 100%.
	We are pretty open books in general, to be fair, so ask away!
	And I love helping.
	I love helping with that stuff.
	I feel like demystifying is still something that's not super common.
	Yeah!
	Yeah, yeah.
	I'm all about it.
	That is fair.
	And the recording of that live stream is available to patrons.
	So head to patreon.com slash onbrand to check that out and the many, many hours of content up there.
	And please note that while you can easily listen to our audio version, anywhere you can find podcasts, you can also watch us on YouTube, or if you're listening to Spotify app, the video will come up there too.
	Also, announcement.
	We had the distinct pleasure of going on the Bliss of the Abyss podcast with Robert Jones, aka RuskinDenmark, to talk about doing this here show.
	And also, because said host is an actor and knows people in the industry in the UK, both Lauren and I learned some new information about Russell and rubbed in a little bit of spilling of the tea.
	It was really, really fun.
	We had such a great time and such a cool conversation.
	Yeah, it was really nice to have a different perspective.
	And also, you're just lovely.
	Thank you so much for inviting us.
	I had just a ball.
	Yep, we had a delightful chat.
	The link for that interview will be in the description, so take a listen if you want to hear us chatting about Russell without actually having to hear Russell speak.
	That is one of the side benefits of that.
	Yeah!
	Alright, now before we get into things, I do have a minor correction to make.
	Last week I was talking about baseball and my dad being into the Red Sox some 20 years ago.
	On the day that episode came out, I got a text from my dad saying, it was the White Sox.
	It turns out he liked the White Sox and the New York Mets.
	Do you know why I was like, Red Sox?
	I was like, I don't know.
	I'm not a baseballman, but I'm like...
	Well, it made sense chronologically.
	Well, the thing is, I do have a specific memory of watching the Red Sox on my dad's TV, but they must have been playing the White Sox or the Mets, I suppose, because that's who my dad was into.
	And he said specifically because they were either spectacular or complete trash with no in-between, which made them quite exciting to watch.
	They would either be brilliant or terrible.
	Yes, that's true.
	It blows my mind that there are any White Sox fans.
	But like I said, it just depends on where you live in the city, and it's predestined for you.
	Yes, yes, indeed, indeed.
	Which is funny and weird, and I don't understand it.
	But yeah, I didn't want that to go unmentioned.
	The other thing I wanted to mention, just to cap off the whole Rescue the Republic situation, is that, well, I spoke about where the money was going, but perhaps didn't talk sufficiently about where the money might be coming from.
	Now, as mentioned, the money was being funneled through Give, Send, Go, which is Nazi GoFundMe, and one might suspect they don't pay too much attention to what money is coming from where.
	When it comes to their fundraisers.
	In fact, I would say a shocking number of donations to Rescue the Republic have been in amounts of $100 and $200 from anonymous donors.
	There were also a lot of pro-Russian voices on stage that day, but weirdly there were some behind the scenes as well.
	See, despite not being scheduled speakers at the event, Dave Rubin and Tim Pool were there, just kind of hanging out for the sake of it.
	You know, those same individuals who were outed for being paid Russian assets very recently.
	And all of a sudden, the half a million dollars Rescue the Republic raised might be viewed in quite a different light.
	Especially if the speakers apparently weren't paid by Rescue the Republic.
	And let's be honest, most of them generally wouldn't do things for free, like Russell, for instance, earned $67,000 from his 20-minute set for RFK Jr. the other month.
	So it is perhaps possible or plausible they might have been paid by some other means elsewhere, and speaking at this event was part of the deal?
	We may never know, but the whole thing certainly gestures broadly in the direction of being a propaganda campaign funded by money laundering Russian oligarchs.
	What did I say?
	What did I say?
	I don't have it concretely, but it feels a lot like that, huh?
	Okay.
	Well, here's the thing.
	There's going to be two kinds of listeners that either are familiar with grassroots fundraising, and they're like, oh, and $200, consistently anonymous $200 donations.
	Enough of them is like, oh, what?
	Mm-hmm.
	Because that's not how this works.
	There should be five...
	And I would encourage you that if you're not familiar with this, to just look into it.
	Five, ten, twenty, fifty.
	Those are amounts that people...
	Especially when they're watching a live stream.
	When they're watching PBS or whatever.
	Two hundred is not the normal thing.
	And there's probably some kind of...
	Limitation requirement that dictates maybe more than $200 would set off an alarm bell, but $200 is low enough that it's not that dire.
	What the fuck did I say?
	It was a scam for money laundering.
	This is the thing.
	Now, obviously, it's not the only thing.
	I thought I knew it.
	I smelled it.
	Yeah, definitely.
	Anyway.
	Definitely has a very specific vibe.
	I love being right and feeling awful about it.
	That's so cool.
	Yeah, that's the alternative name to our show, actually.
	Alright, now, it's been a minute since we dealt with Russell's show proper, and thankfully not too much crazy nonsense has happened in the interim, but obviously...
	Russell went to Washington, D.C. to record a bunch of stuff around the Rescue the Republic event, and he's also gone over to Florida for a bit, to the Rumble Studios in Miami.
	He was there when Hurricane Milton hit, hundreds of miles away from the impact zone, so to speak.
	But, of course, he made sure to put a social media post about it, standing in the wind and waffling about God.
	Just terrific.
	Thank you for that, Russell.
	The other thing doing the rounds at the moment is Russell advertising for Ayrs Tech, who sell Wi-Fi, 5G, and EMF blocking jewellery and phone accessories.
	Does 5G Free have anything to say about that?
	I don't know.
	He has been advertising for this obvious scam for quite some time now, but in their defense, I will say if you pay their extortionate prices, you will at least get a product out of it, like something will be sent to you, unlike some of Russell's other advertisers who just take your money.
	So, you know, there is a plus side.
	You will get a physical thing at the end of it.
	It'll be useless, but you'll get it.
	What was the name of the company one more time?
	A-I-R-E-S Tech.
	And see, the Chicago PD have heard that, and they're on their way.
	That's what I'm hearing.
	Or someone broke their ankle.
	Yep, hi Chicago.
	There's a lot of people that live here, and humans are fragile.
	A lot of stuff happens.
	It could also be that.
	A lot of stuff happens.
	It just rained a lot here.
	People be crashing and falling, and I hope everyone's okay.
	Yep, stay safe everybody.
	Anyway, what we're going to be dealing with today is a guest, and a returning guest at that, with this recorded in the States.
	And I've taken this one directly from the Locals channel, so it's not up on Rumble yet, meaning there is no proper introduction.
	However, what I have done is taken one of the top comments from the Locals show for you to read out, Lauren, and we'll see if you can guess from that who the guest is.
	So...
	Have a read of this excellent comment, and we'll see if we can figure it out.
	It's all caps.
	I find myself blown away by the genius of it!
	Okay, no.
	I can't read it all caps, but you guys get the idea?
	Did that help?
	Oh, man.
	This is great.
	One of my favorite co-workers used to post an all caps, and he just knew he was an all caps person, and we all accepted it.
	But that was a long time ago.
	Yeah, right.
	Things are different now.
	We didn't even have spell correct.
	Yeah, so I find myself blown away by the, oh man, the genius of these two incredible minds.
	What a brilliant conversation.
	There's no way that's true.
	I must say I feel quite ignorant about many of the topics that were brought up today.
	You guys inspire me to get my PhD just for the pure joy of learning.
	God is good!
	Well, well, all caps.
	God is God!
	Well, it's all in all caps.
	That's why I did the demonstration at first.
	I know I'm loud.
	I'm not trying to hurt people.
	So, any guesses as to who we've got today?
	I have said it's a returning guest.
	J.P.D.'s?
	That miserable turd?
	Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!
	Bang!
	Right out the gate.
	I saw Genius and Two Incredible Minds and I was like, no.
	Yeah, it's either going to be Peterson or it's going to be Elon Musk.
	It's going to be one of the two.
	And both of them are idiots.
	But anyway...
	Wait, wait, Elon Musk is the other one?
	Elon Musk is the other one regularly cited as being a genius.
	Right, but he's a returning guest.
	Yes, exactly, which does narrow it down quite substantially.
	Okay, yeah, it was, Geordie Peetz has made a return.
	It was an hour and a half long conversation between these two.
	And it was their first full-length conversation since Russell's official conversion to Christianity.
	So you can imagine where that's going to go.
	And actually, I have a clip from the end.
	You know what?
	I can't.
	I honestly can't.
	I have no idea what they talk about, because none of it matters.
	It's not tangible in any way.
	It does matter.
	It's incredible.
	It's like only hurtful.
	That's like the one thing they can accomplish.
	It's incredibly hurtful.
	Yeah, well, to give us an idea of where this is going to go, I've actually taken a clip from near the end of the show just to give a little preview, a little flavor as to where we're headed.
	The reduction of Christ, well, you have the reduction of Christ to compassion, for example, which is not an appropriate reduction.
	He's a good teacher.
	Yeah, yeah, he was a nice man.
	He was kind.
	He was a nice man.
	Jesus was a nice man.
	He's like, no, no, no.
	Well, I'm going to need a little more than a nice man for this fucking holy war!
	I found myself in the middle of it.
	Hello, we've brought you a heart.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	I'm going to need king of kings.
	Okay!
	Um, yeah, Jesus was in fact not a nice man.
	He was king of kings and we're gonna need that king of kings because we're in a fucking holy war!
	Okay.
	Do they not know that you have, like, a tripartite choice?
	It's not- Jesus isn't the only one.
	There is an angry and vengeful- Dad, also.
	Yeah, right.
	Yeah.
	Because you absolutely can reduce Jesus and his message to compassion.
	It's just that compassion is a very large idea the more you explore it.
	Mm-hmm.
	Mm-hmm.
	Fucking chuckleheads are amazing.
	Neither of them seem to like that very much.
	Okay, that's the direction we're going anyway.
	Let's circle back to the opening of the chat between Geordie Beats and Russell, and Jordan asks an important question off the bat.
	So what's our goal in this conversation?
	Our goal in this conversation, Jordan, is to recognize these contradictions.
	You know, I actually love you.
	And like when we do stuff, I feel like, oh, this is the plane of reality, intellectual and spiritual reality that I need to live on.
	In fact, while you were talking out there, I thought, I wonder what would happen if we had to spend 24 hours together.
	I think it would be very different.
	Blood and feathers everywhere.
	And then like, you know, I see stuff like online.
	And why should we care?
	Why should we care about that culture with the way it treats us and with its obvious malevolent intentions?
	Yet, I want them to know that we are good.
	I want them to know that we are good.
	Yeah, Russell doesn't like people saying mean things about him on the internet.
	He wants us all to know how good he is.
	By his actions, I'd say he's not helping himself.
	But apparently, letting the world know that he and Jordan Peterson are good is part of the purpose of this conversation.
	So we'll bear that in mind as we go.
	Right.
	You're going to have to do a lot of work.
	It's going to take some effort.
	Yes, some serious effort, I would say.
	Step one, change yourselves completely.
	Step two, question mark?
	Step three, non-profit.
	Yeah, I also like the way that Russell was like, oh yeah, what would happen if we spent 24 hours together, you know, thinking that, oh, this would be a really revelatory, nice thing, and Jordan Peterson's immediate response was, oh, we'd probably kill each other, wouldn't we?
	And I'm like, yes, at least that is the more accurate answer.
	Okay.
	Well, I think that was kind of what Russell was fishing for, and that's like the cutesy-poo thing to say, sure.
	It's also fucking true.
	Yes, 100%.
	They don't like each other.
	Nope.
	You know what?
	Listen, there's a reason the word frenemies came around.
	It's true.
	There's a lot of people that either have to work together or think they're friends or are dating or married who despise each other.
	So it's not that special to see this dynamic.
	It's unnecessary, but it's not particularly unique.
	No.
	No, indeed.
	Alright, so let's get into the first of the ideas being thrown around here, and Jordy Peet spends a good while talking about archetypes and stories and shit, as he is wont to do, within the first ten minutes, before we get to the two ways the world can deteriorate, supposedly, based on biblical stories.
	And Jordan Peterson has a very specific interpretation of the Tower of Babel story.
	Another is the story of the Tower of Babel, which is what happens right after the flood.
	You might say that the world deteriorates in two ways when the divine is offended, and one is chaos floods back, that's the flood, and the other is that Alternative conceptions of power emerge.
	That's the Tower of Babel.
	So it's the engineers who build the Tower of Babel.
	It's the descendants of Cain who build the Tower of Babel, fundamentally.
	The people who are off the divine path, and they build alternative conceptualizations of the divine that are Secularized.
	These Tower of Babel constructions, the ziggurats that are referred to in the text, were towers that were built for the self-aggrandization of secular leaders.
	So they were testaments to their own deification.
	Right.
	And the consequence of that, according to the text, is that if you build a false tower skyward, You will confuse yourself so badly that words themselves will lose all their reference.
	Right!
	People will be unable to agree on what constitutes a man and what constitutes a woman.
	And that is a fundamental disruption because I believe, as a psychologist, that there is no more fundamental perceptual category, not just conceptual.
	There's no more fundamental perceptual category than man and woman.
	Sex is 650 million years old.
	It's older than trees.
	The distinction between male and female is more fundamental than the distinction between up and down or black and white or dark and light.
	And so if you can confuse people so badly that they don't know the difference between a man and a woman, the Tower of Babel has stretched to the sky and people are unable to understand one another.
	And that's what happens in the story of the Tower of Babel.
	That didn't take long.
	Alright, already off to the races with some anti-trans shit in the first ten minutes.
	Cool beans.
	Okay, yeah.
	As you correctly assessed there.
	What?
	I get what he's saying.
	Reproduction started before the organism that is a tree existed.
	Yeah, that bit I don't take so much issue with.
	What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
	Right.
	Firstly, I want to correct his idea that the tower was built by secular atheists, because it most certainly was fucking not.
	In the story, those who built it definitely believed in God, and they kind of built it in defiance of God, is the way the story is told.
	Supposedly, God was concerned that humans had blasphemed by building the tower in order to avoid a second flood, and so God brought into existence multiple languages, rendering humanity unable to understand each other, Because he's a vindictive dick in this particular story.
	Like, oh, you won't let me murder you all?
	Well, good fucking luck talking to each other now.
	That's what we're looking at.
	Or, in the context of mythology, we have myths.
	As to, you know, there's myths as to what constellations are what, and there's many different versions of the same thing.
	The flood myth is not an original creation of the Bible.
	It's borrowed from a previous, so it's a fable as to why there are languages.
	Because if the Bible were true and every single person came from Adam and Eve, we would all speak the same language.
	So they had to handle that.
	Yes.
	Absolutely.
	And that's how they handled it.
	It's a fable.
	I'm talking about this more specifically in terms of the Bible.
	But yes, absolutely.
	Both the story of that and the flood are fucking old.
	Like, if you want to talk about it from a fucking obnoxious, myth-y dude, that's what obnoxious, myth-y dude J. Petey should say.
	Yeah, it's a completely, it's a total misunderstanding of like...
	Yeah, it's just plain wrong.
	Like, what he said is just, like, so thoroughly wrong.
	It's wrong on all counts.
	Yeah, and as for the chat of, like, oh, male and female and sexes going back millions of years, like, sure.
	Of course, it's never been a binary even then.
	One of the UK's oldest trees, the 14-all-you at over 3,000 years old, is actually an intersex tree, which is a fun little fact there.
	But also, sex and gender, two different things.
	Sex refers to, you know, the different biological and physiological characteristics, like reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc., the things people are born with.
	Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men and those in between.
	So Jordan Peterson can say, oh, sex goes back to before there were trees!
	And sure, but gender fucking doesn't, because to a large degree, we just made it up.
	So...
	Gender definitely doesn't go back that far.
	Yeah, that really, like, as I was like, I said what?
	And then I was like, well, no, just what at Jordan Peterson, because don't use science sometimes.
	No.
	Because science also says that gender is a construct and there are myriad different constructs of gender for humans throughout history.
	Yeah.
	So if we actually, like, you gotta, you can't just keep the thing that sounds cute to you in the moment.
	Like, you gotta...
	Listen to the science also.
	You can be pixie choosy.
	That's the way he approaches most of life, I think.
	The main concept that he's trying to advance here, of course, is that because we recognize trans people exist, that's actually comparable to the story of the Tower of Babel, and we're all going to suffer God's wrath accordingly.
	That's the broad version of what he's trying to get at here.
	It's like, oh, well, there's no difference between man and woman.
	It goes up to the sky, and then we're all going to die.
	That is a mangled notion.
	Yes, very, very.
	Tortured.
	Yeah, and convoluted, because in this concept, it's humanity confusing itself, whereas God does that in the Bible and all this other shit.
	Anyway, just stupid.
	Now, Russell wants to take this in a different but still bad direction.
	Also, too, the priapism of the Tower of Babel as a kind of masculine principle, and the femininity of the flow of deluge as a representation of the feminine principle.
	Sure.
	So, for example, one of the precursors of the flood story is a story from Mesopotamia called the Enuma Elish, which is the oldest written story we have.
	And the chaos dragon in the The Mesopotamian story is Tiamat.
	She's feminine.
	She's a feminine dragon.
	Tiamat is the same word as taom, and taom is the force that God encounters as the primordial waters when he casts the world into order at the beginning of time in the Genesis account.
	So that's that primordial chaos.
	It's often represented with feminine imagery that is always the target of the patriarchal ordering principle that extracts from that chaos the order that's good.
	And so Tiamat, Teom, the flood, those are all the same thing.
	Okay, so men are order and good.
	Women are chaos and bad.
	Citation needed!
	Men are the tower.
	Women are the flood.
	Men extract the good parts from women.
	I'm not especially shocked to hear this from two of the world's premier misogynists, but importantly, they're not the first people to say this nonsense, and I'm laying the blame squarely at the feet of Carl Jung, who both Jordan and Russell revere.
	In Jungian psychology, the feminine is associated with chaos, and the masculine is associated with order.
	The feminine, or anima in Jungian terms, is often linked to the unconscious, intuitive, and creative aspects, which can be seen as chaotic due to their unpredictable nature, and conversely, the masculine, or animus, is associated with rationality, logic, and structure, which can be seen as ordering principles.
	So in modern terms, women are so emotional and men are pillars of rationality and logic.
	And this is, of course, the general vibe that Jordan Peterson likes to put forth into the world.
	Conveniently forgetting that men are orders of magnitude more prone to fits of rage, violence, and lust, and are generally far more controlled by their emotions than women tend to be.
	But hey, what does that matter?
	What does reality matter, eh?
	Well, I mean, I'd argue that that idea proliferated and took root way before Jung ever got to it.
	He was responding to the culture...
	Sure, sure.
	But that just tells you how long this issue has been around.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	But both Russell and Jordan Peterson specifically regularly cites Jung.
	Jung is his favourite dude.
	So, you know, that particular articulation of it is where that's coming from.
	I mean, well...
	It is frustrating that he said patriarchal structure, right?
	This is the idea of what witches are.
	This is a really old idea that is motherfucking projecting.
	It's ridiculous.
	Like it's Yeah, this has been stupid for a long time.
	What's crazy is that these are the guys that are arguing that there aren't systemic problems that need to be addressed, but then just constantly describing systems that are very old and very entrenched.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Okay!
	The blinkers required are multi-layered.
	Jordan Peterson also likes to regularly kind of cite Tiamat as some sort of confirmation of his ideas, you know, because if people thought something thousands of years ago, that must make it true now.
	And a couple of fun facts as well.
	In the Enuma Elish, the thing he mentioned, Tiamat's physical description includes a tail, a thigh, lower parts, which shake together a belly, an udder, ribs, a neck, a head, skull, eyes, nostrils, a mouth, and lips.
	She has insides, possibly entrails, a heart, arteries, and blood.
	Tiamat was once regarded as a sea serpent or dragon in places, though Assyriologist Alexander Heidel has previously recognized that a dragon form cannot be imputed to Tiamat with certainty.
	In Dungeons and Dragons, Tiamat is a multi-headed dragon.
	I'm like, okay, I think I can see where you might be drawing some inspiration here, Jordan.
	She is also often referred to as a monster, though this identification has been incredibly challenged.
	And in the Enumeral-ish, Tiamat is clearly portrayed as a mother of monsters, but is also just as clearly portrayed as a mother to all the gods.
	And Jordan Peterson is kind of intentionally ignoring that second part there to advance the women to chaos narrative, which is great.
	Cool.
	Cheers, Jordy.
	Okay.
	We're going to move on a little bit.
	And we've established that, Lauren, both of us hate being told about people's dreams.
	You know, unless I'm in it or somebody's having sex, I don't want to hear about it.
	I don't want to hear about that.
	Don't.
	Fair.
	I hadn't considered what could be worse than that particularly until I came to this clip of Jordan Peterson describing what a dream is.
	Now, what the dream is trying to do, this is Jungian theory, is imagine there's something you don't know, okay?
	And your dream is compensatory.
	Your brain uses your imagination to fill the gaps in your explicit knowledge.
	You don't know something.
	You imagine something that fills that gap, right?
	And that imagination is trying to express itself in a way that will expand your semantic representations.
	The dream interpretation furthers that process by saying, okay, well, here's the cloud of images.
	Here's the associated ideas.
	That seems to be surrounding a center, like which is the center of that cloud of concepts.
	What's the center here?
	What does that point to?
	That's the revelation of the new idea that emerges in fantasy, in compensatory fantasy.
	That is a lot of words to say dreams are just your subconscious trying to tell you something.
	That's what he was actually saying there.
	And, you know, just in too many fucking words.
	And this is why everyone thinks he's smart.
	I will say, like, maybe that, like, conceptually, like, maybe sometimes that can apply, but in my experience, my dreams are far more often meaningless than they are meaningful.
	Um, you know, if Jordan Peterson can explain to me what my subconscious was trying to tell me when I dreamt of being chased by a giant wheel of cheese, I'd be willing to listen.
	Uh, but, uh, dreams are mostly just synapses firing while our brains are resting.
	Um, you know, nothing less.
	Yeah, and...
	You know who would totally be on board with learning and changing and growing that idea is Carl fucking Young.
	This is what just drives me absolutely fucking crazy is like they are citing people who were thinking and writing and researching in whatever version like of this either a proto-scientific method or whatever, right?
	And none of the people who are being cited and being talked about and their ideas discussed, I cannot believe, unless there is some other motivation that is political or emotional that they would have in the moment that they would be motivated by, Carl Jung is not going to say, oh, wow, look at all this sleep research.
	Fuck off, I already had an idea.
	He'd be excited about the new things that we learn.
	That's not- Absolutely.
	And I can't help but think that Jung would also probably fucking hate Jordan Peterson.
	Oh yeah, I was thinking that.
	Just- Just listen to him and be like, you're an imbecile.
	I'm done with this conversation.
	Stop bastardizing my ideas.
	Yeah, and I'm not pro or against necessarily.
	No, no, no.
	There are interesting ideas from a lot of different people that had more time and energy and access to research and understand their current moment in the world.
	And they have a lot to offer now.
	But you're negating the offer for yourself if you're like, this is the end-all be-all.
	Like, if they say it's the end-all be-all, this person that you're citing and you're reading...
	That's a problem in and of itself.
	That person has already got some flawed logic, so don't apply your own flawed logic to it.
	If you have new information, which I think about that all the time.
	How excited that Sir Isaac Newton or Carl Jung or whoever would have, if they had a time machine, fucking Bill and Ted style, and they got to see...
	Where their research or their efforts have progressed to, I think about how just...
	Thrilled they would be and how much they would change their view immediately.
	Yeah.
	Because they are the most open to, like, especially if they're, like, testing hypotheses in a scientific method sense.
	Yeah.
	Like, if they genuinely feel that way and they're not just, like, holding onto these ideas for their own kind of, like, non-scientific reasons and they get to see the way it works and see the kind of technology that we have and the kind of research capabilities we have.
	They would all be fucking thrilled and they would not tolerate this particular breed of bullshit at all.
	I was thinking, like, Nikola Tesla, and then I was like, oh no, Tesla would be furious.
	He would be so angry that electricity isn't free.
	Like, he would be livid with so many corners of society today.
	Oh yeah, no, he'd rage.
	But he would equally be like, whoa, look at all this cool shit.
	You know, but also...
	Well, that's what I'm saying.
	Yes, they'd also be really fucking mad.
	Yeah.
	They'd have to go on a punching tour first.
	Yeah.
	Let's do that.
	If we ever figure this out, let's just bring all the scientists back and send them on a punching tour.
	I'm down.
	My brains would melt.
	Bill and Ted is unfortunately not a documentary.
	Sadly.
	Now how much we like to go to Joan of Arc's...
	Yeah.
	Aerobus class.
	Putting back Socrates.
	Yeah, I'm down.
	Oh dear.
	Alright, so naturally Jordan Peterson isn't done with all this dream talk, and he pivots to wanting to talk about a bit of pop culture.
	And all fiction tends towards that.
	Like the Avengers series, let's say.
	The Avengers series has a point.
	It circulates around the center.
	If it didn't, it wouldn't have any coherence, wouldn't have any narrative coherence.
	It's making a point.
	The Harry Potter series makes a point insofar as it's coherent.
	In Harry Potter, you can see the mythological landscape very, very clearly.
	And you can in the Avengers, too.
	I mean, it's The Chitauri are demonic and satanic figures, obviously.
	They come from another dimension.
	I mean, it's the invasion of the earthly realm by the satanic.
	Clearly, I mean, obviously, and that's a standard archetypal trope.
	And so, you see the same thing in the Harry Potter series, right?
	And it's not by fluke that these series, Harry Potter and the Avengers, let's say, the X-Men as well, have been so fantastically popular, and that we've devoted as well so much computational energy, and I mean this literally, You know that Demand for high order computational products, the more and more sophisticated chips, is driven by the necessity of representing fictional landscapes more and more accurately.
	That's actually on the demand side.
	How powerful a bloody processor do you need in your laptop to run a spreadsheet?
	Not very.
	And so we're putting literally billions of dollars, billions or tens of billions of dollars into constructing these fictional landscapes that actually do inform us about what's going on.
	It's part of the manner in which the whole culture is exploring the transforming horizon of the future.
	It's not fluke.
	None of that's fluke.
	I can only think he's talking about CGI and video game graphics here.
	That's what he's talking about.
	Sure, in terms of recreating fictional landscapes with computer chips and everything, Oh, no, that's what I got was like that there are myths that are eternally kind of renewing themselves throughout like human history.
	And it's also it's like an oversimplification.
	So why is he even saying that?
	But like they're renewing themselves throughout like and so there's so basically because he's going to make an argument and he does make these arguments constantly because he wants to refer to pop culture because he loves pop culture and lies about the fact that he doesn't.
	Is that he can take a lesson from Harry Potter or a Marvel movie, like the Avengers or whatever, and it has a universal truth.
	Yeah, he likes to talk about the archetypes and shit like that.
	Yeah, and it's a lot of shoehorning and kind of dumb stuff to say, and that's what he said.
	That's what I got from it.
	Yeah, no.
	In that last little section, he was talking about computational chips.
	Actual computer chips.
	I promise.
	Okay, unless there's something else that I'm...
	Because you've listened to the whole thing.
	Obviously, yeah.
	I've seen the whole thing.
	Sure.
	And if there's something I don't know about, fine.
	But that's not what it sounded like here.
	We do get to some archetypal bullshit in a minute.
	But no, he is very much talking about the computational industry side of it in recreating these fictional universes.
	Why do you...
	And, like, what fascinates me is that he seems to think that's an interesting thought to have.
	Because, like, sure, like, industries are driven by wanting to create better, like, better create and recreate landscapes and monsters and whatever else.
	And, like, there are also militaristic applications that also drive billions of dollars into graphics, AI, and VR capabilities.
	But, like, sure, people want better graphics, Jordan Peterson.
	It's not...
	It's not a fascinating thing.
	And the aliens invading in the first Avengers movie especially is Satan.
	Thrilling stuff.
	It's weird how when you view things exclusively through the lens of...
	Is that immigrants?
	That's what he would say?
	Or whatever?
	Whoever he wants to target?
	Well, it's Satan this week.
	But, you know, when you view things exclusively through the lens of Christianity, everything becomes a battle of good and evil, or like God and the devil.
	And with that film, I would say there are more interesting themes to explore, like in the villains.
	There's corruption born of self-interest, there's imperialism, there's biological supremacy to discuss.
	But no, it's just Satan.
	It's just Satan invading from another dimension.
	Cool stuff.
	Okay.
	Cheers, Jordan.
	So, in terms of the archetypal stuff, he pivots from here back to talking about Harry Potter.
	It's what attracts everyone's interest.
	People are interested in those stories for a reason.
	There's a reason, right?
	Do people know what the reason is?
	They say, oh, I really enjoyed that.
	That's not an expert.
	Why did you enjoy it?
	You know, why are you interested in the adventures of some orphan kid who lives under a cupboard and has magical relatives?
	Because it's interesting.
	What the hell is going on?
	Oh, well, I just enjoy it.
	It's compelling.
	Sorry.
	That's a rather shallow analysis for how much did J.K. Rowling make?
	Dick.
	Like what percentage of Great Britain's GDP did she produce?
	Like a lot.
	Well, you can brush that off if you want, but you're a fool if you do it.
	You're a fool to do that.
	Can you just answer your own stupid question, idiot?
	Yes, she tapped a very powerful resource, much that was unmanifest or had previously been manifest in different incarnations, she was able to corral.
	She's got a deadly accurate mythological imagination.
	She figured out things in that series that I cannot believe she knew.
	Like that image of the snitch, that's such a sophisticated image.
	The snitch, that ball that the seekers chase, that's literally a representation of the container of the primordial chaos in the alchemical literature.
	It's a symbol of the spirit, Mercurius, who's a psychopomp of the gods that points to the, what would you say?
	That is part of the manner in which the underworld makes itself manifest to the human imagination.
	It's a soccer ball!
	How the hell did she know that?
	Well, I suppose because there's a commonly accessible receptacle that she was granted access to, and in a way it's obvious that language wouldn't work if there were not such an accessible receptacle.
	And certainly not, we wouldn't understand the mystical image reference.
	Oh my god.
	What a useless idiot!
	It's a soccer ball!
	Or whatever!
	It's a soccer ball!
	Sponsible.
	So, right.
	So, fair to say you've seen the Harry Potter movies, Lauren, or at least the first one?
	I've seen one.
	I know what a snitch is.
	I've tattooed more than I've seen.
	I've tattooed more, like, symbols and, like, I'm...
	Okay, so, genuinely, like, I do not engage with the Avengers.
	I'm so thrilled everyone does.
	And I just don't.
	It's just not my thing.
	That's fair enough.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Harry Potter, I'm just old enough that, like, it didn't really hit whenever I was, like...
	I'm like, just, it's Harry Potter and SpongeBob.
	I missed it just by a hair.
	Right, right, right, right.
	But I think I've seen one of them.
	But you know what Quidditch is, and you know what a golden snitch is, right?
	Yes!
	I have heard about all of these things at length!
	In case anyone else has missed it, the golden snitch is a small golden ball the approximate size of a walnut, and it flies about the place, and if you catch it, you win the game.
	Jordan Peterson just insisted that this thing is a representation of the spirit mercurial, which again, Carl Jung, And Carl Jung would be like, you're an idiot!
	It's a soccer ball!
	Or whatever.
	Like, it's a wild card, right?
	I don't know.
	It's the thing that you win the game with.
	Well, this is it.
	So the spirit Mercurial Mercurius, right?
	So according to Mercurius Magazine, Mercurius is a world-creating spirit, right?
	An integration of light and dark, good and bad, the beginning and the end of the alchemist's quest, an animating principle of vital force.
	Mercurius encourages us to keep on living, exploring and learning from experience.
	Mercurius is an evolved version of Mercury, a humanized and compassionate force.
	While Mercury stands for surface play, amoral and unemotional, Mercurius combines the ethical depth with the glittering surface, wisdom with the superficial beauty, the soul with rational thought, communication with insight.
	The journey from Mercury to Mercurius is a journey that all living beings undertake We are born with our wildest impulses flowing through us.
	We love and hate, suffer and learn.
	The world, for all its charms and hells, exists because of these primordial forces.
	Oh, it's everything?
	That's such a helpful definition.
	What?
	Mercury had wings on his feet and this little ball has wings!
	For fuck's sake!
	Oh my god!
	So Mercurius is the evolved version of Mercury, right?
	And Jordan Peterson seems to be saying, yeah, all of that is represented by a flying golden ball.
	Even if I were to be generous and say, aha, maybe he means Harry Potter's journey of catching the thing helps him, you know, go from Mercury to Mercurius and he learns a lesson.
	No, he fucking doesn't.
	It's not a learning experience.
	It's not a journey.
	It's Harry Potter winning a game.
	And Jordan Peterson is just talking flat out of his ass here.
	Yeah, Mercury was a trickster god who could fly.
	And this is a tricky little gold ball with wings on it that look exactly like the representations we are commonly associated with Mercury on its feet.
	I've drawn so many of them!
	Oh my god!
	A bull!
	Oh my god!
	Okay.
	Yeah, and as to the broader point of J.K. Rowling having, you know, a sharp mythological mind or whatever, if you go back to, like, especially when the first books came out, like a lot of other writers, and they still do now, thought them to be mediocre at best, and a rehashing of various stories and tropes that have come before.
	Because, effective or not, well, that's what the Harry Potter books are.
	You know, it's a bunch of older stuff mushed together.
	That's what stories are!
	That's part of the fun, man!
	That's like part of the fun of like, guess what?
	Before there were movies, there were books and there were plays and then shit gets distilled and reshuffled and some things appeal to kids and young adults and Harry Potter was one of those books and maybe an adult could think it's mediocre but someone who's a little younger would think that it's really interesting and tangible and digestible.
	Yep.
	So, yeah, I bet I'd be like, this is a little juvenile, and I would be right if I read it today, because it's a...
	Oh, my God.
	Not to say you can't enjoy it.
	Not to say it's bad, but, like...
	If it comes off a little YA, that's not an insult, it's just a vibe.
	It's just a way of writing.
	It's perfectly fine.
	But yeah, I would be reluctant to say that J.K. Rowling had a particularly poignant mythological mind in any way.
	It's like, no, she's borrowing other stuff that's come before.
	She's not some fucking genius.
	Yeah, look it, Mercury's on like...
	Mercury is on trucking company logos.
	That's just a thing.
	That's just a piece of cultural detritus that has made it this far, which honestly is really compelling and impressive to me.
	Yeah, the mythology is...
	It's fucking neat!
	Yeah, yeah.
	But like, yeah, it's used for delivery companies and their logos and it's not whatever the fuck Jordan Peterson thinks that is.
	That's crazy.
	It's like numerology.
	Yes, right, right, right.
	Well, yeah, that's a different name for the same person.
	Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly.
	No, it's just we have a delivery company here.
	Right.
	There we go!
	Yeah.
	Also, it is worth mentioning that it is also very unsurprising to see one anti-trans bigot supporting another anti-trans bigot so vehemently.
	I'm like, oh yeah, there is also that, isn't there?
	Well, that's culture they know that they can play around with as much as they want and it's totally safe and she's not going to bitch about it.
	Indeed.
	So next, Russell has some thoughts about the apparent ubiquity of the English language.
	I've often wondered whether or not the idea that these signifiers and signs were arbitrary and interchangeable, I speak only one language, but I've sometimes wondered if the ubiquity and success of the English language is in the same manner that J.K. Rowling might have mapped,
	charted and penetrated an ulterior realm with deeper meaning in her proximal retelling of an archetypal story, Right, right, right.
	I'm just putting it in the comments, let me tell you.
	As well as there's sort of like an ulterior, an anchor is dropped down into those depths and it receives the charge of an available resource.
	So I've often thought, what English must do is it must have some resonance that feels accurate, whether it's through onomatia or resonance, that there is some that it achieves musically something beyond what it can achieve just rationally.
	Through the maths of linguistics, through the ability to track patterns, breaths and distinctions label and lingual gymnastics and tricks are somehow guided along like the ball that would take you through a sing along some deeper and more absolute reality. breaths and distinctions label and lingual gymnastics and tricks are Can you call me when they say our thing?
	Well, so what he's trying to get at here, the basis of his idea is that somehow the English language has a sort of accidental inbuilt supremacy, that it just hits the brain in a specific way that makes humans just really love speaking it and listening to it.
	and that's why it's ubiquitous, because it just resonates.
	English really resonates.
	Did he even say that?
	That's what he's trying to say.
	This clip really did make me question the sheer depths of obliviousness a human being can achieve, because somehow he's leaving colonialism, imperialism, and capitalism out of the discussion entirely.
	The English language is somewhat ubiquitous because the British Empire took over, you know, half the fucking planet and forced a lot of people to speak English.
	There's also slavery.
	You know, people were abducted from Africa, forced into slavery and forced to learn English.
	Beyond the empire, like the capitalistic aspect, you know, like who owned all the fucking printing presses, who later owned all the movie studios, like the English and the Americans who speak English.
	You know, there are so many actual reasons that the English language has become, you know, near ubiquitous.
	And worst of all, like, this colonial approach is not an antiquated thing.
	In my parents' lifetime, children in my country of Wales were viciously beaten any time they spoke Welsh instead of English in school.
	Like, we're talking within the last 50 years here.
	And this dude is trying to tell me, like, well, maybe English is just a really good language and people like it a lot.
	The last residential school, which is where they would steal...
	First Nations children, and they would be treated exactly the same, closed in, like, 1996.
	Right.
	So, yeah.
	This is not new.
	No, it is.
	It's not old, I should say.
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's very current.
	And even though...
	Like, yeah.
	These are deliberate choices.
	They're policy choices that are made.
	It's like the USD, like, you know, dollarization is, like...
	Deliberate and manipulative.
	But no, the English language just, it just resonates, you know, when you're beaten.
	Then it really starts to resonate.
	I mean, he didn't say anything that was necessarily like...
	Saying other languages didn't...
	I just...
	This is so fucking...
	Like, straight up convoluted.
	Like, when they say a thing that's real, like, I'll just take a fucking nap until then.
	Like, I don't know what...
	Just...
	They have yet to say.
	And they're just like...
	Anything of substance.
	I'm...
	This is...
	Well, well, you're in luck.
	We're going to skip ahead a little bit and skirt back to some Bible talk, which, you know, very important.
	And it's Jordan Peterson talking about the golden calf again.
	Okay, so now Moses disappears for a while.
	He's the prophet.
	Now, the prophet is allied with the political.
	That's Aaron.
	Aaron is the political voice.
	Now the prophet disappears, so now there's no connection between the political and the divine.
	And so what happens is that Aaron starts to do exactly what the people want, but not exactly.
	He starts to do exactly what their least admirable motives demands.
	And so what happens to them, literally what happens to them when they start to worship the golden calf is, well, it's a carcass, that's a calf, it's gold and it's material.
	So they're worshiping the material, but it's a drunken, orgiastic, hedonistic celebration that makes them the laughingstock of their enemies.
	That's what they devolve into, right?
	And that is a precursor to chaos.
	But it's very specific in the Old Testament account.
	It's orgiastic hedonism that's allied with the populism that necessarily emerges on the populist side if the connection between the political and the divine is severed.
	Aha.
	So populism is only bad when it's separated from the divine, right?
	Meaning Christian God.
	Alright, that ties into what he was saying at his Rescue the Republic speech.
	Good thing that populist Donald Trump is so very connected to God.
	Yeah, as for the golden calf stuff, like, if you remember, he's rehashing the same thing that he said last time, that him and Russell had a little conversation.
	You're worser, though.
	Worser.
	It does seem to be.
	Yeah, also, if you want to tell me you've never been invited to an orgy without telling me you've never been invited to an orgy, you can do so by calling it an orgy, or orgiastic.
	Real, real cool.
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	The golden calf, first of all, it's not a carcass.
	It's alive in the statue.
	It's a calf.
	And God got mad because, like, to say that it's, they're being made fun of by their enemies, and that, like, that is so wrong-headed, like, It's in the commandments.
	God doesn't want you to put other gods before him.
	That means your neighbors...
	They didn't just come up with a golden calf out of nowhere.
	It's because your neighbors already had the golden calf thing and it looked like a pretty good deal for them.
	And so that's how religion and that's how culture works.
	And so they would do the golden calf thing because they're like, oh man, that looks pretty neat.
	And I'm really scared because I feel like God has abandoned me over and over and over in this half of the book.
	Mm-hmm.
	another option that works a little better for me.
	And then they decide to, when they're like, oh man, I've kind of lost my faith for like kind of reasonable reasons.
	And maybe God shouldn't be such a dick.
	You're absolutely right.
	And like, maybe be a little more supportive, because this golden calf guy kind of might have a better deal.
	And that's why they did it.
	And it wasn't unique to the region.
	In fact, it was intrinsic to the region.
	So no one's making fun of them from the outside.
	The neighbors are like, hell yeah, that guy fucking helped me pay my rent last year.
	So yeah, right.
	Golden calf away.
	He made our crops go fucking awesome.
	Try that out.
	That's so stupid as a thing to say.
	It's amazing to me.
	The whole point is an anti-paganism bit.
	It's do not worship false idols.
	That's the whole shtick of the thing.
	It's not even anti-paganism.
	It's just jealous.
	It's just like, no, not them, me.
	That is in the text of the book.
	And also what a lot of theologians talk about is like, I think it's, I don't know, I feel like Ten Commandments discourse is fascinating because of all the stuff that's not in it.
	And the fact that like...
	And also Christians just don't listen to the don't make pictures of me part at all.
	Like so profoundly just throw that part away and then act like it's weird that like Muslims try to observe that and not even all the time but like some of them do kinda and instead that's why they do calligraphy instead of like images of God and representations of God.
	Like yeah, Christians just throw that part away because I don't know.
	Maybe it's almost like they're not going to be enforced as rules.
	They want a muscular, bloodied-up Jesus on a cross, is what they want.
	So, you know, that's more important.
	They're an abaceted twink with one foot in the grave.
	All right, so now Russell has a question as to what the modern-day golden calf would be.
	Right, right, right.
	So what's the golden calf now?
	Well, I would say, let's see, where do you see it?
	I certainly think that the pride festivals have devolved into the golden calf worship.
	Because they put sexuality at the forefront.
	Sexuality and pride.
	Not helpful.
	Not helpful.
	You don't stake your identity on your sexual desire.
	Why?
	Well, because it's not...
	Just like you can't stake your identity on compassion.
	Which is like the female sin, essentially.
	Compassion is all that's good.
	It's like, no, sorry, it's a lot harder than that.
	And sexual identity is insufficient.
	It's not a good orienting principle.
	I think, like, as an individual, I staked my identity on sexual desire for 10 years as a promiscuous hedonist, and I had the same impulse.
	I was looking for God.
	There's something about the sort of I recognise your point with the don't bring your sexual identity to the forefront of your identity and culture.
	I can see why there would be a sort of an ontological value in that principle.
	But I feel like it's not...
	I don't think that the whole culture is being guided by that principle.
	I think that's an ancillary expression of the problem.
	And I think it's more likely to be found in commodity.
	And to your earlier point...
	What do you mean by commodity?
	I think it's more likely to be found somewhere within...
	Materialism, commercialism, and the worship of commodity.
	I like that orgiastic component.
	I understand the importance of that.
	There is a materialism in the golden calf story, right?
	Because it's not just drunken orgiastic nudity and the celebration of the pleasures of the moment.
	It's also the worship of the golden calf, which is a kind of fundamental materialism.
	One of the ways of understanding that, I think, hmm, let's see, the best way to approach that, because you said that's not comprehensive enough.
	It's not.
	Let me make reference.
	It's not.
	It's not centrifugal, it's ancillary.
	It's part of something that's a more complex, dynamic dance.
	Okay.
	So Russell was kind of trying to pivot away from all Pride events being the problem there-ish.
	Basically trying to claim that they are the symptom of a larger problem that is actually the disease.
	But in either case, it's still painting Pride events as being bad.
	It's just...
	Well, I think they're less bad, is what Russell's saying.
	It's still putting them in a very negative light.
	And here is your biannual reminder that Pride is a protest, and it's not about putting sexuality first, like the events aren't about getting all us queer folk together to have sex and party.
	Though, we'll say, not against that.
	Pride is both a celebration of the fact that we're all still fucking alive, and a protest against the vicious discrimination that many of us still face, let alone in countries where it is illegal to be gay, and in many cases punishable by life imprisonment or the death penalty.
	You know, it's very...
	It's a demonstration for gay liberation.
	Yeah.
	That is how it started, and that's what it still should be.
	Yep.
	And...
	There's a lot of problems with the way that...
	I mean, I think it's interesting that just calling it pride and not even saying gay pride, cool pride, whatever.
	They're very specific with that language because it's like...
	They are another word that they're just making their own definition for that is an orgiastic, hedonistic thing, not like a parade with balloons.
	Well, he specifically said Pride Festival.
	I'm like, okay, that's it.
	The whole ass thing?
	Really?
	Face painting?
	Folsom Street's different, bud.
	And that's not Pride.
	That's a whole different event.
	Listen, different organizers, different permits, everything.
	If you want to get mad at something, fine.
	But get your shit straight.
	It's just crazy.
	Like, this is...
	Yeah, it's Jordan Peterson being a bigot, plain and simple, and he's using this story as an excuse.
	Also, I don't think the metaphor works that well either when you also consider how many gay Christians are out there, because there are a lot, you know?
	And can be found at almost, if not every, Pride event.
	Yeah.
	Full stop.
	Yes, yes, exactly.
	There are Christian pride events, for God's sake.
	Christian gay pride events.
	They exist.
	I've seen them.
	They're a thing.
	All the time.
	Been there.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Oh, bigoted asshole.
	Well, I mean, it's stupid.
	Okay, this is frustrating because they are having this goofy-ass conversation that does not mean anything because they don't know enough about Yeah.
	conversation that is rooted in like, in like knowledge and information.
	They're just vibing.
	And it's based on this like totally false premise and this false understanding in the first place.
	Like Russell thinks he's learning about Christianity from someone who knows more than him or can talk about it more than him or, or is a peer.
	And they are having an interesting discussion about real things.
	I mean, even tangible ideas that other people understand to be that way in the world.
	He doesn't know what the golden calf represents.
	How can he talk about anything else if he's got his foundation?
	Jordan's foundation is completely incorrect.
	So then how can they have a conversation on top of it?
	This is all just like window dressing on a pile of a turd.
	It's just so stupid.
	It's putting their vibes out there.
	That's what they're doing.
	And they're using all of this other actual stuff as a basis for it, but just completely lying about what any of that stuff means in order to further advance their point.
	Yeah, I have a hard time believing that people that listen to this can retain and then regurgitate it somewhere else.
	I don't even think...
	Well, yeah, if you remember the comment that you read out earlier, you know, I had difficulty keeping track of all these stuff.
	I'm sure you did.
	I must say I feel quite ignorant about many of the topics that were brought up today.
	Yeah, because they're not real.
	Like, yeah!
	Yeah, that's gonna happen!
	Because they're wrong!
	It's bullshit, that's why.
	Oh, dear.
	So now, Jordan Peterson wants to talk about the Book of Revelations.
	So one of the things you see, I wrote an article about this with Jonathan Pazio on imagery from Revelation that describes the end of the world.
	And so you can think of part of what the book of Revelation is, is a description of the eternal nature of the end of time.
	And so it's something like, well, what's the pattern of things degenerating?
	And so one part of that pattern is exemplified by, there's a series of images.
	So it's a scarlet beast.
	With multiple heads on which a very attractive prostitute sits who's the mother of all whores.
	And she's arrayed in gold and very attractive.
	And so it's this scarlet beast, that's the color of blood, is the degenerate patriarchy.
	That's a good way of thinking about it.
	It's got multiple heads.
	So what's the degenerate patriarchy?
	The degenerate state Emerges when the unifying principle disappears.
	So that's in the aftermath of the death of God.
	Multiple principles emerge, right?
	And that's the headed hydra.
	And it's a disorganized soul.
	It's the degeneration of the patriarchy into a multiple-headed beast.
	Okay.
	If the patriarchy deteriorates, that's masculinity, what happens to femininity?
	Well, it deteriorates too.
	It commoditizes.
	And so at the end of time, the patriarchy fragments, and its heads fight with one another, and female sexuality commoditizes.
	And obviously, when the masculine deteriorates, the feminine is going to deteriorate with it.
	And that is happening at an insane rate in our culture.
	You know that, what is it?
	At least 25% of the traffic on the net is pornographic.
	Right.
	So, in fact, you could even argue, and I really think you could make this case, that it was the commoditization of female sexuality by unsuccessful men that drove the development of the World Wide Web, the sharing of pornographic images.
	Now, it wasn't the only thing, but, you know, you don't want to underestimate the sexual as a powerful, motivating force.
	Well, no, given that that's how we're all here.
	Right, right.
	VitaMax and VHS and the example that you just gave.
	Okay, first of all, commodification.
	Right.
	He doesn't know the word, and it's very annoying.
	Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's like Russell.
	For all of you yelling it.
	Yes, yeah, yeah.
	I know you're out there.
	You know your word.
	It's like Russell saying homogeneity.
	It's like, no, homogeneity.
	Homogeneity is the correct word.
	Anyway, yeah, okay, sure.
	Like, the internet and men in general are driven by porn.
	Fine, whatever, right?
	Sure, okay.
	The main point he's actually trying to get across here, however, is the idea that porn is eroding masculinity.
	And according to him, and he'll expand on this in a minute...
	And according to him, when masculinity deteriorates, femininity must also deteriorate.
	He provides no example or reasoning for this whatsoever.
	And with both of those deteriorating, it's then creating the conditions for the end times and the book of Revelation to come to pass, essentially.
	It's like, that's where we're headed.
	Yeah, but he didn't even say that it's not like he's...
	The Book of Revelation is a fucking acid trip, dog.
	It is a psychedelic fever dream.
	But here's the thing about symbolism, right?
	Anyone saying, and listen, it's very fun and it's very common and it's cute, but To say, have like a dream interpretation book, right?
	To be like, this is what symbols mean.
	Sure.
	Symbols that are universal.
	I think that you can discuss symbolism.
	I know from a background in art history that there is symbolism that is very specific, but it's also time-specific.
	It is location-specific.
	Skulls mean a million different things.
	Roses mean a million different things.
	I have 10 books that I can see about symbolism in different kinds of art in different places and times from different people.
	Okay?
	So for anyone to say this is the symbol that means this thing, if it's like a symbol that's like...
	The color red is something very vague, right?
	Like, a specific rune means a thing.
	That is a thing that was made by a culture that has a specific meaning, right?
	But just a circle with a dot in it can mean many different things because it's too vague to carry this one meaning from this one specific...
	Now, it can have one meaning for a lot of specific different groups, but it's so vague, like the color red or a hot lady...
	It's the color of blood!
	Shut up.
	I hate this.
	Like, really?
	And yeah, sure.
	Like, yeah, sure, but what?
	Like, you were asking why so was I. Where are these connections?
	And the thing is, like, listen, I'm positive that Well, I am positive that in the moment, Jordan Peterson absolutely believes what he says, and he thinks he's saying something smart, and he thinks that he understands symbolism.
	Now, I'm not going to disagree that this is exactly what he thinks these symbols mean.
	Any analysis beyond, like he's making statements that are concrete and are like, this is how it is.
	No, this is how he thinks it is today because he's having fun.
	He's riffing on his little thoughts in his mind.
	Five and a half.
	Yeah, and he's allowed to vibe.
	What a waste.
	I mean, you know what?
	It's not a waste.
	If people that are very interested in hearing what Jordan Peterson specifically thinks this week that revelation means, because I guarantee you it is not consistent with It's not entirely, wholly consistent with what he has said or what he will say, but what he thinks it is right now, what is expedient for the point that he's trying to make, which is obviously, like, misogynistic and anti-trans.
	That's, like, what he's going on about.
	That's what he thinks today.
	So for him to say these things that are, like, definite and timeless is absolutely absurd and...
	I know why he is going after the like the porn of it all because there's I mean, I think in Utah and maybe Texas, porn is like porn hub is banned.
	Like you can't access it.
	There is a firewall.
	I don't remember.
	I don't know where those things are standing because they're in court and it's back and forth all the time.
	And I'm not up on who's doing what crazy thing, but it lumps in with like banning abortion and because like abortion and they're coming after contraceptives, they are coming after every type of like a reproductive health care.
	And that includes the moralization about porn that like they need to get conservative fans that aren't the core that are totally like Christian and like intensely like, you know, like zealous about it.
	Also lying.
	They're fucking lying.
	They don't want to also engage in porn.
	Oh, engage with porn, I should say.
	So they're trying he's trying to sell this idea.
	This like clean your room, you know, like.
	No fap idea that porn is rots like everyone when like maybe the commodification of sex is the problem because capitalism, not because of the whore of Babylon from the Bible. - Oh.
	Right, so I'm going to play the next clip because what you've just said is very relevant.
	So Russell is trying to wrap his head around all of this.
	Predictable!
	Idiots!
	But Jordan has a final point to make about the country of Japan.
	What you're talking about in the beast image is the hydra, which is to some degree the dissolution of power as a result.
	As you said, Jordan, as the loss of the unifying principle.
	I should have added something to that.
	Well, that story has an end.
	So, the golden whore is what the degenerate state offers to people.
	It's endless hedonic delight.
	At the end of the passage, the scarlet beast kills the prostitute.
	Right.
	So what does that mean?
	It means the degenerate state entices you with hedonic pleasure and then destroys even sexuality itself.
	And that's happening already because one of the things that we're seeing in the aftermath of the so-called sexual revolution is that, what is it, in Japan, 30% of Japanese young people under the age of 30 are virgins.
	The same thing's true in South Korea.
	It's increasingly true in the Western world.
	And the probability that young men and young women will engage in any relationship, let alone stable, long-term relationships, is declining dramatically.
	Right?
	And so, this story is something like sexuality itself.
	It's so perverse.
	No one would have ever guessed this.
	If you take all the structures off sexual conduct, sex itself...
	Disappears.
	And you think, well, no way, it's such a powerful motivational force.
	It's like, okay, well, have it your way.
	What are you doing with the fact that 30% of Japanese people under 30 are virgins?
	Like, what are you going to make of that, along with a birth rate that's so below replacement that Japan won't even exist in 100 years?
	This is not trivial.
	Oh no!
	Japanese people are going extinct!
	This is a real problem!
	So Japan does this national fertility survey every year, and so these headlines tend to be flung around every few years or so.
	Usually alongside, you know, accusations that Japanese single men are watching loads of porn and hentai and they all fuck tentacled pillows and they buy used underwear from vending machines, right?
	A lot of the actual reasonings tend to point to low economic opportunities, meaning essentially younger people can't afford to date in the ridiculous fucking economy.
	There's also a time factor where Japanese people, as part of their culture, are constantly fucking working and literally don't have time to go on dates.
	Their working culture is insane.
	And there are also cultural differences around sex and approaching it and that sort of thing as well.
	But there's a larger problem with this survey, and I'm going to read from a Forbes article on the subject from a few years ago.
	Quote, For women between the ages of 18 and 39, a total of 24.6% were virgins in 2015, up from 21.7% in 1992.
	Among men of the same age bracket, the percentage without sexual experience increased from 20% to 25.8%.
	The rates of people remaining virgins into their 30s are significantly higher than in the US, UK and Australia, where between 1 and 5% of 30-somethings report no experience.
	Notably, the survey does not ask any questions about same-sex experience and uses a Japanese word implying vaginal intercourse.
	When the researchers made estimates that account for people who have had same-sex but no heterosexual intercourse, they estimate that 5% of 30-somethings would still lack any sexual experience.
	The survey also doesn't account for people who may have had experience in their past but have since been...
	Unquote.
	Okay, so that sounds different, doesn't it?
	Huh?
	Like, when you factor in same-sex relationships, it evens out to being the same as in the US, the UK, and Australia.
	How curious.
	Right.
	So then it just totally...
	It's the same as everywhere else.
	Why study?
	It's not a study.
	It's a suggestion.
	Yeah, also...
	Enclosure of the Commons by Capital is why.
	There's maybe my favorite, and this is a played out boomer ass stupid meme, and it might be my favorite ever, is, you know...
	Kids never want to go outside.
	Kids don't go outside anymore.
	And then after that, it's like, here's why.
	And it's a picture of what streets look like in America.
	And it's all just McDonald's.
	It's all fast food places.
	It's just a sea of...
	Parking lots with fast food places and stores, none of which are walkable, where you're not going to meet people.
	It is so hard.
	Again, like you said, unless you have money and time to meet people and then to have these relationships.
	And so there is an arrested development of people...
	The thing is, the concern that...
	I'm saying in the broadest possible sense, the concern that Jordan Peterson is bringing up isn't invalid in that young people are not meeting and engaging in relationships and doing all the relationship experimenting first so then you can actually develop the kind of relationship style that is more stable, that you want to invest in for your life.
	Whatever form that may take.
	And what you can still engage with responsibly and ethically and work your own shit out so you're not just inflicting it on other fucking people.
	That's also what the experimentation of relationships are, is how to be fair and kind to your partner.
	You've got to figure that shit out because it's not necessarily innate.
	It's a process.
	And the fact that there is not a place to go that is, I mean...
	Yeah, it's a problem everywhere and it's not getting solved.
	I've seen a lot of content lately about how dating apps actually work.
	Oh my god, that's incredible.
	There are so many barriers that are absolutely real.
	And again, policy choices.
	Just like hungry kids, just like homelessness.
	These are policy choices.
	This is urban planning.
	This is like, and again, enclosure of...
	You're going to get fucking have to fucking pay to think soon.
	And it's crazy.
	Like, it's...
	What do we think that we're...
	Like, what do they think?
	Because I know who's paying Jordan Peterson and fucking...
	I don't know.
	I don't know who, but I know the type of money that is paying Jordan Peterson and paying fucking Russell Brand to be kicking around, and it's capitalism, and it is questionable fucking capitalism at that, that is, like, letting you say this stupid thing right now, so then look at yourself.
	Where does your fucking money come from, and what do your actions and behaviors serve, and Those masters are the same ones that are making it an uninhabitable world.
	Also, yeah, it's expensive as shit to have a kid, and there is no guarantee, and this has been my stance for most of my life, there's no guarantee there's gonna be a world to live in.
	Why?
	I'd say that's a massive problem no one's fucking talking about in this, or rarely.
	Even to go out on a date is fucking expensive, you know, to a lot of people, you know, without even bringing kids in, even just the meeting part, going out and doing the thing is unfeasible for a lot of people.
	Right, and a lot of cultures also, you have a matchmaking kind of, like, you have matchmaking and arranged marriage as a social convention, right?
	There are practical reasons for that.
	One, Yeah.
	because it's very old ideas, right?
	In a small village, you need to make sure you're not related.
	And if you work a lot, like you have to maintain your farm all day, every day or wherever else, whatever work you're doing now, same thing.
	If you don't have time to meet people, outsourcing is your option.
	And like it's, there's, If distances are very far apart between families and towns, there are all these very practical reasons that matchmaking and arranged marriage were intrinsic into a lot of cultures.
	And when you take that kind of familial mechanism, that familial obligation away, and then you plunk the modern version into this...
	Hyper-capitalist – like, capitalism thrives in isolation.
	Isolation is like – that's what lets capitalism really do its thing.
	And it is the thing be thangin' right now.
	So isolation goes hand-in-hand with capitalism.
	And so you've got these isolated people.
	There's no other way to really interact in any of the traditional ways that would even work.
	And then you take away that kind of like, you know, I totally like more traditional, you know, more traditional modes of like matchmaking, right?
	That are often like not just romantic love in the Western sense and idea that was, listen, this is new.
	Like love match marriages are new and rare.
	And they were, they were rare.
	This like marriage was a contract that you entered into to share a household with a person.
	And if you liked each other, that was a bonus.
	And yes, that is a problem.
	But there's nothing.
	What I'm saying is like the, these numbers are going down because, you know, Like, women have more freedom to make, like, they have autonomy.
	So that's also what they're mad about, is women having autonomy to make choices for themselves.
	And when they can make those choices, guess what?
	They don't choose being, like, stuck with someone who fucking kicks the shit out of them because they had a bad day.
	And that reflects in the fucking numbers.
	It's just so silly.
	It's like...
	Yep.
	Magically, I can fucking think right about it.
	What's Jordan's fucking excuse?
	So that's the reality of the situation, right?
	Whereas the rhetoric that Jordan Peterson is trying to spread, and he's leaning into the tropes that I mentioned before about, you know, Japanese men, etc., Like, his idea is that Japan has removed all strictures from sexual conduct, right?
	You know, everyone's allowed to fucking do what they want all the time.
	That's absurd.
	Fuck in the freest and most perversive ways, and that is actually leading to less sex and is going to kill us all.
	Because if everyone's allowed to do whatever they want, actually, it almost cancels itself out and nobody fucks anymore.
	So what we need to do is go back to having lots of rules around sex, and you can basically only do it to procreate.
	That's what he's trying to...
	Trying to drive out there.
	Yeah, capitalist decadence has nothing to do with it, by the way.
	Yeah, nothing at all.
	Nothing at all.
	Or reinforcing a total inequality structure.
	Oh my god.
	Okay.
	Yup.
	So from here, Russell goes into a full 10-minute word salad about dystopian literature, particularly Huxley, Orwell, and Kafka, right?
	I'm so bored with this shit.
	He really wanted to make some big, important points and sound intelligent to his friend Jordan Peterson, right?
	But Jordan wants to talk about something else.
	So, okay, so one of the things...
	I just wanted to put in that trident, Huxley, Orwell, Kafka, as a kind of a description of these dystopia stroke utopias.
	So one of the things that came to mind for me when you ran through those three things, I just re-watched Cabaret.
	Twice.
	Brilliant movie, 1970s.
	Absolutely brilliant movie.
	And it hasn't aged a bit.
	It's unbelievably well edited.
	Great music.
	It's really a masterpiece cabaret.
	And it unites those three themes.
	So you have this Horror of Babylon figure who is played by Lisa Minnelli.
	And she's this...
	Sort of attractive, but not actually, as you get to know her.
	Young woman who believes that she's freed herself entirely from the grip of the terrible patriarch, can pursue her sexual gratification as an autonomous individual, no matter what.
	And she's deluded in her narcissistic way into thinking that she's a major talent, and she plays a minor role as an entertainer in a cabaret, a gender-bending cabaret.
	It's very interesting, the cabaret, because Many of the figures including the band are women and they're seriously devoid of all sexual attraction.
	Like they're dressed very provocatively but they're presented on screen in a manner that's like animated corpses.
	It's really quite brutal.
	What?
	Okay.
	Shit you not, he goes on to talk about how much he loves Cabaret for like a full five minutes.
	I don't think he loves it though.
	Well, he's watched it twice.
	What movie did he watch?
	Well, there is that problem.
	But so in this little bit, like several things crossed my mind.
	Like firstly, watching any movie with this man must be a truly insufferable experience.
	Secondly, you don't need to give me all this fluff and bullshit, dude.
	Just tell me you like the movie.
	It's fine to just like things.
	You don't have to make Liza Minnelli into the whore of Babylon to justify it to me.
	Just like the thing.
	What I was saying earlier is that's exactly why he has to insist...
	Because he's a fucking lazy dummy.
	So he has to insist that instead of just reading old books and under...
	Being a consistent understander of things in public, he has to insist that these old tropes that he thinks he understands so well just keep re-emerging in popular culture, so any movie he feels like watching on a given day and then talking about is actually not just about watching the movie, but he's a very profound thinker, and he's so smart because he liked cabaret, except he's...
	Guess what, guys?
	Hey, guess what, everybody?
	Fun hot tip for you is if all you do is complain about shit and describe it in a way that has nothing to do with the actual piece of content, you don't like it!
	You don't like it!
	That's not liking it, and you don't understand it.
	And it...
	What?
	Oh my god.
	It's not...
	Guys!
	I get that liking stuff is more confusing than ever.
	That is absolutely true.
	I watched it happen.
	But...
	You don't have to...
	Yeah, you don't need to make it crazy.
	You don't need to make it this metaphysical experience.
	And by all means, talk about it.
	Again, if that's his interpretation, which I think he absolutely believes this very wrong set of ideas.
	He very much does.
	And wrong is with an asterisk, because life is fucking subjective, man.
	We all have our own lens.
	He's allowed these opinions, you know, and it's like...
	There's a part of me where I'm like, somewhere there's a timeline where Jordan Peterson is just a movie reviewer and the world is better off for it, you know?
	Where he can just throw these opinions at.
	He doesn't have to do all this attachment bullshit to fucking archetypes and all this other stuff.
	He can just be like, I liked this movie, you know?
	And the world would be so much better.
	I mean, he'd have to be consistent and he'd have to use a rubric, and we know he doesn't do that, so I don't know that this would necessarily be a thing.
	No, he needs to be a fucking annoying old man at a gas station who just says stuff, and we're like, okay, Pete, and then you just fucking get your coffee and leave.
	That's what needs to happen.
	What he doesn't need is to be a tool of international intelligence agencies, and that's exactly what he is.
	It's fucking crazy.
	It is bananas.
	My favorite thing about this is that he clearly just wanted to talk about this movie and basically ignored everything Russell's had to say, which is delightful to me.
	And the movie.
	Yeah, right.
	He's like, yeah, all those things you said, cool, I want to talk about this film that I watched, so I'm just going to...
	Glide past that and I'm going to pretend that they fit into the thing that I want to talk about.
	To say that anyone on this stage for cabaret is not a sexual being...
	What?
	What?
	What movie did you watch, buddy?
	Tell me what you're talking about!
	The thing is, is like, okay, I know he would get instantly fucking furious, because also, we've met this guy, I know plenty of this guy, and I know most listeners know somebody out there that's a fucking JP that you gotta fucking hang out with, probably at a gas station.
	Having his fucking pulled pork sandwich, but then you can just leave and not listen to him and be like, oh, that's old Geordi.
	He has a lot of stories.
	Because that's where he should be.
	Because it's not universal.
	It is so profoundly individual.
	To the point where he can't even maintain his own narrative.
	Even within his own analogies.
	This is so absurd.
	I don't know, man.
	My heart is breaking, because I've just been staring at this quote the entire time.
	I think it was really smart to start with that, right?
	As to compare what...
	To use it as sort of a yardstick, to be like, this is what people get from it.
	This is what people are thinking.
	Because I would have never in a million years...
	Come to this conclusion from this content.
	But somebody else did.
	And it's because people have been making money or feeling better about themselves or just being lazy and being inept, convincing others that they're stupid and that they can't reason, that they don't matter.
	And that this is what a smart person sounds like.
	Because they're intimidated by smart people because they don't feel like they have been respected or considered and they don't have access to smart people that aren't, I don't know, smug fucks or also kind of wrong and so it's confusing.
	Like, trying to engage with people like...
	If you think that Jordan Peterson is a smart guy that knows a lot of stuff, when you try to go listen to other smart guys that know a lot of stuff and things aren't adding up because his logic doesn't add up, you're going to think, oh, well, that's wrong.
	It is this kind of, like, domino effect in someone's life.
	And it truly, like...
	I don't I don't think that it is a respectful it's not respectful to feel pity for another adult necessarily in like a smug kind of like holier than thou way I feel bad for this person that they haven't had life experiences that make them confident and equipped enough to know what smart sounds like and then learn stuff because there's he's saying is like you inspire me to get my PhD and I'm having so much fun learning but you're not yeah Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	And it's another method, a particularly pervasive one, of keeping them in this particular media sphere.
	Exactly.
	Because none of the other ones make sense if this one does, you know?
	Yeah, it's you're learning such a specific language that you are not going to compute other places when that's not how knowledge works and that's not how learning works.
	You should have a better grip on the world around you.
	The more that you learn, not less.
	It's so insidious to me.
	And also, hello, capitalism is why.
	It's because these men are incentivized to do this with money.
	It would not happen if this was not the system.
	That's why it's never happened like this ever with humans in history.
	This is unprecedented as a problem.
	Yeah, yeah, 100%.
	So next, Jordan Peterson has a badly thought-out take on the woke ideology.
	So you have these systems of ideas that we describe that are associated symbolically, right, by statistical regularity, let's say.
	And you can think of those as systems of things, right, or systems of objects, or systems of material.
	But they're not.
	They're systems of ideas.
	Ideas are alive, right?
	Ideas are alive.
	Every idea has its aim.
	Every idea has its perception.
	Every idea has its motivations.
	Every idea is a personality.
	Every system of ideas is a personality.
	If you take, okay, so now imagine this.
	So imagine that you take A hundred young women possessed by the woke ideology, okay?
	Now, imagine they're all from middle-class families.
	Now, you take one of those young women, and you put her in a dinner party, and you're talking to her, and you find she's 90% decent young woman and 10% possessed by the woke ideology.
	And so, as long as she's at the dinner, no problem.
	You put her together with a hundred people like that, the whole goddamn devil's in the room.
	The whole thing is there.
	And that system of ideas, it has a will, it has a perception.
	You could say in some sense, it has a mind of its own, even though it doesn't have a soul.
	And it's going to operate in the conspiratorial manner that constitutes the aim of that system of ideas.
	And it's going to use the individual actors who are its partial It's partial containers as its mechanism.
	This is why in Shakespeare, what is, I can't remember the line, the gods, it's the line about the gods treating us for their sport, you know, that we're pawns of the gods that are sacrificed to their pleasure.
	That's a good way of thinking about it.
	And the gods are these, in that sense, the gods that are being referred to are these systems of ideas that operate under the facade of things, that use individuals as their pawn.
	We get it.
	You hate women so much.
	As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods.
	They kill us for their sport.
	King Lear, Act 4, Scene 1.
	It's a good quote.
	He did some good stuff, that Bill Shakespeare, but it doesn't have too much relevance to what Geordie Peets was actually saying there.
	No.
	So...
	So his idea of like, oh, if you take this one woman indoctrinated by the woke ideology, she's fine alone, but if you get a bunch of them together, well, that's the whole goddamn devil in the room.
	Like, sure, ideas are more potent when combined with community and others to share in those ideas, right?
	But here's the thing, I can equally say, if you take one guy indoctrinated by alt-right MAGA bullshit and have dinner with him, he might be fine.
	Might have a perfectly pleasant conversation.
	If I put him with a bunch of others in front of the Capitol building on January 6th, I might have a fucking coup on my hands.
	You know, it's such a redundant non-point that he is making.
	Just to throw stones at how bad being woke is.
	Oh, the actual point.
	What's getting, what is coming across loud and fucking clear is how much he fucking hates women.
	And how stupid he thinks they are.
	Because, no, it's not perfectly fine.
	He'll find that 10% that he hates that is woke.
	And that will be the whole of that person.
	And you will hate them.
	So even him, like, again, flawed premise.
	Don't build on it.
	It's already broken.
	You don't think that that 10% is too much for you to think someone's okay.
	You think that that 10% has ruined that person.
	So don't pretend like you do.
	Respect that person's autonomy and experiences and feelings and experience in the world.
	Like, you don't...
	I said experience twice, I'm sorry.
	Oh my god.
	This is so...
	Yeah, you know, you're absolutely right, because he definitely doesn't.
	10%, he would immediately write them off as being, you know, victims of the woke ideology.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Prove me fucking wrong.
	I doubt it.
	Yeah.
	So then he starts talking about the Joker again, and I've listened to too much of that for one lifetime.
	So let's skip ahead of that and get to Russell telling us a personal anecdote of him and his friend Joe.
	So, in a sense, a criminal intent is just sort of a subset.
	It's vying for power.
	I had this brilliant anecdote.
	You might kind of like this.
	One day, it's a 145-second anecdote.
	One day recently, me and my mate Joe, we were travelling down a country lane.
	Joe, me and him, we walked the path together.
	He participated, in fact, in my baptism.
	Catholic lad, good lad.
	Joe has a past and he can look after himself physically, shall we say.
	We're stopped by the police on a winding rural road in England because a tree has fallen.
	We can see the tree arcing over the road.
	It's not yet entirely fallen.
	And the local constabulary tell us, oh, you can't go down there because that tree's fallen.
	And I say, well...
	Are you saying that we're not allowed to go down there?
	Or are you saying that you will prevent us from going down there?
	Are you just advising us that it's dangerous?
	Or are we sort of free and we can assess for ourselves whether or not we're willing to take that risk?
	And the guy says, you're not allowed down there.
	Me and Joe bridle a little bit of the assertion of this authority.
	We get back into the car and Joe says, you know, what kind of impulses occurred to him under most circumstances.
	And I said, it's very interesting, isn't it, Joe?
	Because if you'd have acted on those impulses, imagine the consequences that would unfold from that kind of confrontation, given how seriously those matters are treated, understandably, because of the thin blue line between sort of order and chaos.
	Isn't it curious to reflect that if you take an atemporal perspective on this, the power that they are utilizing and deploying to prevent us going down that pathway has the same genesis as the impulse that we had to curtail in so much as a long,
	long time ago there were various tribes and some of those tribes were more successful than those other tribes and eventually over time They coagulate and become a monarchy, and the monarchy requires a police force, and the police force is formed, and the police force is charged with keeping order.
	What undergirds all of that power, ultimately, if you trace it back far enough, you know, you could argue in a well-run system, and that would have to be some kind of electoral democracy, some sort of representative order, wouldn't it, on some level, although, you know, I've heard people make cases for feudalism these days, or benign dictatorships, that the power itself Of authority is just a line of violence that stretches back through time.
	But the way that the power, just in that one, like talking about symbolism, and in a sense a kind of sort of etymology of that moment, a kind of lineage of that moment, is the power that those police were able to hold over us was the same power that we might decide to use to overpower them in that moment, just with a few badges and a uniform And a bit of time.
	Some time ago, these institutions and organizations were formed.
	On what basis?
	The ability...
	Who...
	You know, it's sort of a Foucault argument, which I know you won't like.
	Who's allowed to use violence?
	Who is allowed to kill people?
	What?
	Yeah, who is allowed to kill?
	I mean, in that instance, not Joe and Russell, and not the police either.
	Actually, by the way, you know, contrary to popular belief, cops aren't allowed to just kill people for the fuck of it.
	A lot of them do in your country, Lauren, but technically they're not supposed to.
	And then we pay for it.
	Very cool.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Over here, it's something that happens much more rarely.
	Still happens, but much more rarely.
	If you take all the fluff and philosophizing and bullshit away, this is a story about how Russell and Joe wanted to go for a walk somewhere, but a tree had partially come down, and so police officers told them they couldn't go down that road in the interest of their own safety.
	How very dare they, the total bastards.
	And then Russell and Joe were displeased and presumably had to go for a walk elsewhere.
	This is, okay, yeah.
	Russell just outed the both of them as Turans.
	That's what they are.
	For those of you that are not aware, that is a compound word of tourist and moron.
	People that do not obey the rules of a park or whatever, like a natural...
	configuration, right?
	Grand Canyon as an example.
	There's a reason that you aren't allowed to go up to the edge because you'll fucking fall and either die or gravely hurt yourself.
	not only is that bad for you, it costs tons and tons of time and money and resources to the people that are in charge of that space to go rescue your stupid ass.
	And that's why they have limitations.
	A guy that lives close could have said the exact same thing and it was entirely for their own safety.
	This was not a cop thing.
	And fun thought experiment.
	Had Russell and Joe been allowed to go down that road and that tree had actually fallen on Russell, assuming he lived, what do you think his response would have been?
	He would have been furious that no one warned him and kept him safe.
	Bingo!
	That's like the one thing that cops should and can do is to warn people like, hey, please don't go down there.
	It's dangerous.
	Yeah.
	What a terrible, stupid example.
	That also tells you how little that Russell ever has to interact with law enforcement.
	Because if that's your only example, and it is so petulant and fucking childish, that you don't...
	I mean...
	And he can't understand that maybe there's someone that will be legally culpable for your injury, and they don't want to get fucking sued when you inevitably get hurt.
	This is the other thing, right?
	You know, the first thing he would do, he would go, why did nobody stop me?
	And why have the local council allowed this to happen?
	And then he'd sue the living shit out of them and get a truckload of money.
	And like, yeah.
	Oh, look, maybe it makes sense why the cops aren't letting people go down to a potentially dangerous fucking area, huh?
	Again, totally flawed premise.
	So everything that he said afterwards is trash.
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, if he wants an analysis and wants to do anything about the violence of law enforcement, you can do that, Russell.
	Yeah.
	You've got a platform.
	You have yet to.
	In any form.
	In any way.
	Yeah.
	So don't fucking use that as a little prop for your dumb, bad story that doesn't make any sense.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Also, his conception of how law enforcement came to exist is not accurate as well.
	Well, I mean, it's whatever.
	That's what's tough about understanding...
	Law enforcement, because like, it happened to be a cop because it was their job to stop someone from going into the dangerous place.
	But the same exact situation could have happened and it would have been a neighbor and it would have been just as appropriate and just as like...
	Safety conscious.
	It happened to be a cop.
	They're not handing out parking tickets.
	That's different.
	This could have just been a guy who was making sure that people wouldn't get hurt on his street because of a tree that is making a dangerous situation.
	It happened to be a cop that time.
	Yup.
	Also, I felt sympathy for Joe around the gouging of the foot being open, but I like him less based on that story.
	Just saying.
	Yeah, you know what?
	Anyone that's that close to Russell is probably trash.
	Maybe there's a problem.
	Yeah.
	Yeah!
	Guys, think about that.
	Keep that in your mind for a future reference.
	Yeah.
	So from here, Russell has a little bit of a rant.
	Now, I suppose what's interesting there is that even in a moment like that one, we're talking about who should have power?
	Should it be me, the individual, and what's my power undergirded?
	I've heard you talk many times that the malpower is ultimately underwritten by violence.
	We'd have to sort of make a decision, oh, are we going to take this to the point where we're going to physically fight one another?
	And so, you know, and who knows how many times we're making those calculations over, you know, driving incidents and sidewalk incursions over the course of any given day.
	What is unquestionable power?
	What is indefatigable, indisputable power?
	So when you talk about this sort of ambivalence, the chaotic characters that enter continually through myth, normally in the guise of some harlequin or trickster, a person that refuses to, you know, either the face is covered, they don't bear the mark of the divine, they're not made in his likeness, They are pied.
	They are neither the light pillar or the dark pillar.
	These figures are terrifying as precisely as you said because they're not operating within that order.
	Now, what I think we're in at the moment is that merely the prelude, we are eating the appetizers, not the main dish, and something like the Olympic ceremony is part of the inauguring of that ambiguity and chaos.
	Hey, Jesus Christ, your most revered figure, that's Play him like this!
	Or, oh, it was just Dionysian, it was just a bit of bacchanalian fun, kind of curious reference in itself, actually.
	That's for sure.
	And what flows, I would offer, and I'm asking, what flows out of that is now the assertion of a centrifugal force that benefits from the chaos that was temporarily induced through the sort of the offerings of hedonism, through licentiousness,
	through, hey, there are no boundaries to sex because they're quite an odd Concomitant component of this, Jordan Peterson, is there is, in my country, I recognize and have been the subject of an odd puritanism and a conflating of the, you know, it's a conversation that we had some time ago, actually, the ability to attract as predation.
	That all the while this permissiveness, hey, be what you want, do what you want, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, this literal satanic shit that's sort of flowing out, is this odd puritanism.
	It has to happen.
	So my point is this, what's this peculiar contradiction and hypocrisy that exists in this apparent permissiveness Do you see that Olympic festival as a sort of a bizarre ceremony of jokers, almost?
	Do you see ambiguity as a precursor to a more stringent order?
	Because I recognise, obviously, almost on a sort of a, there's a snake level, that ambiguity is fucking terrifying.
	And I wonder, though, why it's I reckon it's a precipitous and uncanny fear that where on some level you know some dark thing comes, something slouches towards Bethlehem to be, it's antichrist, it's satanic.
	We know that it only appears to be ambiguous, but what follows it is quite definitive.
	I want to make all that.
	Thank God it's you on the other end of this conversation, otherwise the answer might be, I don't know what you're talking about.
	I don't.
	That was nothing.
	There's nothing.
	Well, there's a couple of points that honestly are not terribly complicated.
	It's just fucking waffling around it.
	And, you know, it doesn't require a pseudo-academic to show up to understand.
	Russell was saying that there's a satanic force which is conflating being attractive with being a predator.
	And that's all the allegations against him ever were.
	That's what he's saying.
	It's effectively, well, sorry, I'm just too fuckable, everybody.
	And it's society that's conflating these things.
	You tell me I can go out and be free and do as I want, and then you slap me on the wrist when I do all these bad things.
	You're conflating.
	Because you don't know the line between...
	Being attractive or even being promiscuous and consent to engage.
	Does not understand the meaning of consent.
	Full stop, I would say.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	God damn.
	I'm like, this is...
	That's a YP, Russell.
	That's a YP. Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know, he's mealy-mouthing his way around it, but I'm like, okay, at least you're being honest about this now.
	Like, you're not just fucking, you're not just trying to spin a conspiracy theory around it.
	Like, okay, fine.
	This is how you actually feel.
	All right, there's some of that.
	Get a bit of that.
	Well, but he's not, because he's saying that he didn't do anything that was predatory or violent when that's not true.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
	That's true.
	Yeah, he's being more honest in how he feels while also lying about all of the things that definitely happened.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, completely, like, changing the situation.
	Because even a total misunderstanding of, like, do what thou wilt so hold the law, that's about autonomy.
	That also means that people can't do things to you that you don't want to have happen to you.
	It is a two-way street.
	The misunderstanding of that as, like, as a satanic idea, no, the satanic temple was a real thing, guess what?
	Yeah, it was...
	Being able to enact our own autonomy and act as though, with our own autonomy in the world, different religious practices or whatever have certainly different track records, but the idea...
	Do what thou wilt.
	Also, in tandem, wilt can't do to thou.
	You are not allowed to just inflict harm with no repercussions.
	You are not absolved by whispering to God and feeling bad because you got caught.
	That's Christianity.
	Do what thou wilt is personal responsibility.
	That's why they call it secular humanism, is because it is about personal responsibility and respecting autonomy of others.
	Everybody gets the same rules.
	It's not that I can do something bad and then go into my prayer closet and say Hail Marys or whatever the fuck, and then I'm fine.
	That's Christianity.
	That's a complete and total misunderstanding.
	Yeah, it's a mischaracterization that...
	That feeds their purpose, right?
	Like, it totally supports their attitude, because Russell wants to do stuff and then be like, and then never fix anything.
	Yeah, yeah.
	If that, if he even ever gets to the point of apologizing, you know?
	Oh, you just say it.
	Yeah.
	You just say it.
	You perform it, and then you can definitely, especially, like, if you convince yourself that it's true, man, he never has to feel bad about anything he does for the rest of his fucking life.
	Yeah.
	And the Bacchanalian and Dionysus thing about the Olympic ceremony, like, obviously there's nothing fucking curious about it.
	It's an event emerging from Greece, like it was a reference to that and the Greek gods.
	But no, it must be satanic and offensive to Christians.
	And honestly, I can't believe he's still harping on about this shit.
	It's because he doesn't have a lot to work with.
	Because these are all bad ideas.
	He's pulling from his very shallow, very stupid show to make more shallow, stupid ideas.
	There's not a lot in there to work with.
	So he's going to pull from this shallow pool.
	And no, it's not Jesus.
	Oh my God.
	Yeah, Greek gods are really popular, interesting stories.
	partially because of imperialism and a Western like superiority over academia and thinking.
	Right.
	And then also they're neat fucking stories.
	I wasn't still in Loki obsessed with Greek myths when I was.
	Oh, my God.
	When I was a kid.
	Right.
	And still it's it's so fascinating.
	And that's why we have a fucking snitch with a golden wing!
	Yeah!
	People like fucking Greek myths!
	Oh dear.
	Okay, so unfortunately Jordan Peterson had very little that was interesting to say in response to Russell's little tirade and barely addressed any of the interesting portions at all.
	So we're gonna skip ahead a little bit.
	They haven't done that yet.
	They have not.
	One relevant question, again, call me.
	Call me when they actually want to expand on an idea that doesn't make any fucking sense and needs explaining.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, we're going to skip ahead to a little bit of parenting advice from Geordie Peets.
	Well, you made a point earlier, I think, before, when we were talking before, maybe before this discussion, that you had worked with a screenplay writer who insisted that the most appropriate way to demonstrate true love in the course of narrative is the only way, the only way is to indicate willingness to sacrifice.
	Right, right, right.
	And so then the question, if that's true, and it could easily be, the only question is then, what constitutes the ultimate sacrifice?
	And you could say, well, it's the ultimate offering of self and son, or self and child.
	Well, the Christian passion unites both of those.
	All right.
	Right, right, right.
	Right, right.
	So that's exactly what Abraham does.
	Because Isaac, he was just not really.
	Right, right.
	Well, he's willing, but he gets his son back because he's willing to sacrifice him.
	That's the moral of that story.
	And that's exactly true in life.
	If you're willing to sacrifice your children to what's highest, you get them back.
	That's exactly right.
	It's precisely right.
	That makes no sense.
	Offer up your children as sacrifices, everybody!
	You'll get them back, except for when you won't, of course.
	Like, the thing about this sort of mindset is that it seems inane and fucking stupid at first glance, but actually it's this very kind of rhetoric that leads to the hardcore religious types not taking their children to hospital when they're gravely ill, and then the kid dies, and oh, it was God's will!
	Like, I would cite a story here, but I swear to Christ, there are too fucking many of them.
	Um...
	Cursory Google search will come back with more results than any human wants you to see.
	But, like, the main thing here is, like, Russell was talking to a screenwriter, presumably, about how, like, oh, the only way to kind of display true love in a movie, one would assume, is through sacrifice.
	And you're like, okay, I can understand why you would have, like, in a dramatic sense, why, you know, how to display true kind of...
	Deep love, you know, in a screenplay.
	Okay, sure.
	In real life, there are lots and lots of ways to display love.
	You don't have to sacrifice your fucking kids.
	You know, there are many forms of affection out there, you know?
	You know what I would blanket statement that I'm totally comfortable making is the way that you express and show actual love, how you really feel, is compassion.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Compassion can take a lot of forms.
	Yeah.
	One of them could look like sacrifice, but that's such a narrow, like, understanding.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Like, compassion and kindness and consideration and respecting someone as a human being.
	Yeah.
	That's what's, like, this whole...
	There's been several moments where, like...
	Jordan Peterson just fucking despises compassion.
	Also, I buy that.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	For you, dog.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	For you.
	That's your truth.
	That's your tea.
	Okay.
	Compassion would be...
	There's so obvious...
	There's so many...
	The oppositional defiant disorder on display here is like, which, listen, we get it, but like, that kind of like, these, just they have to run circles around themselves to not Own up to the very obvious reality that Jesus is,
	like, in the book, is absolutely, like, compassion is a defining feature.
	Maybe the defining feature.
	That's, like, kind of his whole fucking deal.
	And a lot of very good examples throughout human history, compassion is the overriding rule that dictates behavior.
	Well, it's helpful that you brought this up, because that's going to be the subject of the next few clips.
	So let's get Russell into a little bit of the Jesus talk here.
	As much as I also love that there is something profound in power unexpressed, that to know he had that power, but as part of his sacrifice, he did not express that power.
	He went to his death like a criminal, crucified among thieves and murderers, and remained only in dialogue with the Lord God the Father.
	And with those gathered at the foot of the cross.
	Man, I love it.
	I love what Paul did.
	You know, when you get into Acts and Paul's letters, you start thinking, something must have gone down for these people to be doing this stuff.
	As much as there was the reification, celebration and glorification of hedonism, Jordan, what was negated, what was simultaneously done, if I may say, What's the banalization of Christ?
	The banalization.
	I mean, I'm talking about my country and I was like in Canada or in this country where, of course, there is a sort of an evangelical tradition, but like it's sort of like Jesus as if it's the most boring thing ever.
	It's not sort of telling you, like, you know, I don't think Romans 13 should be in there.
	I think it's sort of telling you fundamentally that to love Christ is that you best get ready to die for the highest thing yourself.
	You best get ready that something is happening.
	This is it.
	It's going to happen in your lifetime.
	And you'll be called upon in a moment, so you better be prepared.
	Yeah, yeah, definitely.
	That's for sure.
	That's for sure.
	And that's true of every moment.
	Definitely.
	To sacrifice!
	Not fight!
	That's not what they're saying!
	I don't know what the fuck they're saying, but that's not what...
	Sorry, there was not the word that I meant.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	But yeah, no, it's any moment.
	You could be called up any moment.
	I mean, with people recognizing trans people, Revelations is right around the fucking corner, so it could be any second now!
	Yeah, Russell seems to be annoyed that Christianity is treated in a very stuffy and uncharismatic way here, which it is.
	It's very, very dull and boring and stuffy.
	He wants some, like, fucking American-style evangelism going on.
	That's what he wants.
	And you can...
	Oh, I see.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Well, you're in Florida, buddy.
	Yeah, exactly.
	I'm like, well, you can stay there.
	That's fine.
	You can't swing a dead cat without finding some very exciting Christianity in Florida and most places, but...
	Yeah.
	But you can kind of, you can tell, like, okay, you've definitely, you've been experiencing, like, the Alpha Course side of things, haven't you?
	And that's why you've got this suddenly new perspective.
	Like, okay, charismatic, you know, Bear Grylls of it all side of things.
	Okay, okay.
	Well, then he's, no, I mean, like, if he's participating in the Alpha Course, I guess, like, He must be talking about other churches that aren't the ones that he's going to?
	Because Alpha Course is specifically focused on charismatic kind of activity.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Well, that's what I mean.
	And he's only discovered that recently, whereas, like, the general upbringing around churches in this country is very, very stodgy.
	Very stuffy.
	Very, yeah, not much going on in the way of, you know, shiny things and gold and all that good stuff.
	You know, very, very dull.
	And now from that we get to that clip I played at the start with a little bit extra.
	Yeah, and the banalization, that's a very interesting phenomena.
	You have the reduction of Christ to compassion, for example, which is not an appropriate reduction.
	He's a good teacher.
	Yeah, yeah, he was a nice man.
	He was kind.
	He's a nice man.
	Jesus was a nice man.
	Well, I'm going to need a little more than a nice man for this fucking holy war!
	I found myself in the middle of it.
	Hello, we've brought you up a lot.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	I'm going to need King of Kings.
	I'm going to need nailing to a cross, flagellation, and flies around my back.
	I'm going to need to know that that shifting of the veil that I witnessed was real.
	And like when C.S. Lewis writes about JP, like when he says, That have seen the shifting of the veil, those of us that know there is more to reality than the material realm, those of us that have glimpsed it, are taken over by a kind of lust, and like bodily lust, it has the quality of making all else seem trivial.
	So, it's not just the American-style evangelism.
	Russell needs, like, big Jesus.
	Dramatic Jesus.
	He needs the end-time shit.
	He needs it to be transcendent and to make everything else feel trivial.
	And goddamn if this didn't make me wonder how little of the boring parts of Christianity he's intentionally avoided.
	And, two, how much of this stint that we're seeing is an extension of his addictive personality and he needs, like, he needs this to be the next fucking thing, you know, that fills that void.
	You know what I mean?
	And he's not going to get the juice, sorry.
	Unless he starts snake handling or something, then, oh boy, he'll...
	That's what's great.
	Okay, but seriously, like, the Jesus he's describing showed up to cast the moneylenders out of the temple.
	Yeah.
	He was flipping fucking tables, WWE style.
	He was very upset and very vehement when it came to worshipping the worldly accumulation of wealth.
	So maybe Jesus just isn't on the same wavelength as you, Russell.
	Russell advertises debt relief companies, you know?
	Well, on its face, whatever.
	But yeah, debt relief companies that are just there to take your fucking money for no good reason.
	Or gold companies that are just taking your money.
	And giving it to him.
	Tax relief companies that are just taking your fucking money, right?
	It's 100%.
	100%.
	Yeah, compassion includes justice.
	That's the thing.
	For a just cause, compassion will lead you to pursue justice.
	That is part of compassion.
	It's so weird.
	I don't even know what...
	I think maybe they...
	Or Jordan or whatever, like, equates, like, compassion with meekness?
	Or, like, being nice?
	That's not what compassion is!
	Yeah, no, there seems to be a willful misunderstanding at the very least.
	They are so...
	The marrow of their bones is so narcissistic.
	They can't understand the definition of compassion.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And I don't think Russell's read the whole bit about, you know, getting a camel through the eye of a needle yet either.
	I don't think he's come across that bit just yet.
	Okay.
	Well, it's worse that he read it and it doesn't resonate.
	Like, it's worse that he definitely has read it and it doesn't fucking stick.
	Whatever is happening in his dissonance cognition, that he can read it and not internalize it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I definitely know he hasn't read the whole book, because he mentions as much in this next clip.
	It is a big book.
	And from here we get to asking what Jesus would be like today.
	Like I imagined how Christ, you know, imagine is all I can do, of course.
	How would Christ be carrying on?
	How would he be carrying on right now?
	They say when he comes again, he comes as a king, rather than, you know, he comes as a king next time, and it's going to be discerning, and we ain't all going to make it.
	But, like, I feel that, you know, that I love the end of the idea of Christ was a nice man, or Christ was compassionate, that Christ is the highest.
	Only compassionate, right?
	No, no.
	See, Jung pointed something out very, very interesting in that regard.
	And it was actually the counterpoint of the book of Revelation to the idea of Christ as purely a nice man.
	It's like, no, no.
	And there's some of that in the Gospels, this figure of infinite compassion.
	And Jung was very interested in why the book of Revelation emerged as a revelation.
	It was also tacked on to the end of the New Testament.
	Christ comes back as a judge.
	Right?
	And he separates the wheat from the chaff, and that's discriminating judgment.
	That's actually the manifestation of the sword that turns every which way and is on fire, that guards the pathway to paradise in the story of Adam and Eve, right?
	That's that sword, that nothing gets past that sword that isn't, what would you say, sufficiently That lacks the integrity necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.
	That's that sword that turns every which way and burns.
	Right, right.
	Justice instead of mercy.
	Mercy is an element of the divine.
	And that's the compassionate element.
	And it's tempting to raise that and that alone to the highest place.
	That's a temptation, particularly of women, to raise that and that alone to the highest place.
	It's like, yeah, yeah.
	Mercy.
	Justice, too.
	Look the hell out.
	Right, and that's Christ as, well, that's the terrible, that's the wielder of the terrible swift sword.
	God, that's for sure.
	That's a terrifying figure.
	And that Christ in the figure of Revelation is a terrifying figure.
	I've not got to that yet.
	Oh, man.
	Spoiler alert.
	Don't freak me out.
	Well, then don't read Revelation, bud.
	Yeah, I would stop now if I were you.
	Yeah.
	So, again, it's women that have this tendency, isn't it, to raise compassion up, the bastards.
	I mean, I have some counter-argument to that.
	Yeah?
	I have counter-examples.
	That's the fucking thing, though.
	Maggie, that exists.
	Acting nice.
	You can act nice.
	You can be polite and be a fucking monster.
	Mm-hmm.
	That's a fact.
	Yeah.
	So, their conflation is so wrong-headed on, like, every level.
	Yeah.
	Compassion is not, like, compassion is about fairness and about justice and about, like...
	Consideration, empathy.
	Yeah.
	Respecting someone's, like, respecting someone's humanity.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and it's no great shock that these two men do not understand that principle.
	They fundamentally don't get it.
	Men who should be embarrassed and aren't will never fucking cease to baffle me.
	It just...
	What did kind of surprise me on first listen to this, about this whole endeavor, is Russell's willingness to sign on to the idea of Jesus as the avenging fucking hammer of judgment, you know, with both of them essentially casting aside the compassionate parts of Christ, essentially being like, nah, fuck that bit.
	Like, I would have thought this would have been one of the areas that Russell would have struggled with, given his lefty, crunchy past, but nope, apparently not, we're in a fucking hole!
	Holy wall!
	Let's go!
	Jesus.
	Okay.
	Well, because that's the fun part, and he wants the fun shit.
	Right.
	They want the Avengers.
	They don't want to read old Dusty Aristotle or whatever.
	They want the goods.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	This is fucking embarrassing.
	Okay, so, alright.
	I have one good thing to say.
	Oh, okay.
	Jordan Peterson's suit was totally normal.
	And it was actually, I'd say, it was nice.
	He left his jacket buttoned while seated.
	That's weird.
	But it was a nice blue suit, red tie, good look.
	It looked expensive.
	Yeah.
	End of compliments.
	There we are.
	Done.
	But I do genuinely think that reading that into the record, it's relevant.
	Because he wears crazy shit now.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	Someone made a nice, normal suit that he ruined by sitting in it for an hour and a half.
	Or at least fucked it up and gotta take it back to the dry cleaner.
	Yeah, what we really watched was like men rationalizing, like two awful men rationalizing to each other why they get to be as awful as they want and how it's actually really good that they're fucking terrible and compassion sucks.
	What was this?
	What?
	I know!
	I know!
	It's shockingly terrible.
	And yet, like, I don't know, there was a part of me that's like, because the very first time that Jordan Peterson came on the show, we didn't actually cover him because he just bored me to tears.
	But, like, since we've started covering it, there's a part of me that's like, I want to keep tracking this complete inane fucking conversation these two people are having.
	Because it's inane bullshit, and yet we get things like the comment that you read out at the start.
	You know, I'm like...
	How?
	To write as a human being to think that we can keep listening to it.
	I'm kidding.
	Actually, genuinely, I'm going to read that again.
	Yeah, please do.
	Bring it back around, everybody.
	I find myself blown away by the genius of these two incredible minds.
	What a brilliant conversation.
	I must say, the one you just heard, everybody.
	I must say, I feel quite ignorant about many of the topics that were brought up today.
	Fair.
	They're fake.
	You guys inspire me to get my PhD just for the pure joy of learning.
	God is good.
	That's what that person took from this conversation because they are ripe for being emotionally manipulated by two miserable narcissists who like hate at least half the world.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	I doubt most of the other half of the population will pass muster.
	Like, what a shitty fucking life they have made for themselves.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know what, more than half the world, when you start.
	When you start really kind of at it, because you've got all the women, you've got all the- Women, minorities.
	Yep, yep.
	Gay trans people.
	That's like most people.
	Anyone with woke ideologies.
	Yeah, 11% or higher of you is woke.
	You're not good.
	There you go.
	Or if you are, if you're 10% woke and you get in a room with two or more of you, well then you're both bad.
	Yeah, there you go.
	You're all fucked.
	You've let the whole damn devil into the room.
	I mean, good lord.
	I'll tell you what, one accidental good byproduct of this conversation, of this whole thing, is that it has made me want to watch Cabaret again.
	So there we are.
	Kyrie forever.
	She's great.
	It's great.
	It's a masterpiece.
	But there's also a lot of like, because of like, because of world events and current affairs, there's a lot of like a misunderstanding of Right.
	Cabaret that are fucking wildly wrong.
	Right.
	So it has been kind of coming up again in the zeitgeist.
	You know, the conditions in the Weimar Republic.
	Why on earth will we be talking about that today right now?
	Right.
	So it's interesting that he watched it twice and understood zero.
	I'm expecting a full, like, hour and a half breakdown of it at some point on his channel.
	I reckon it's coming.
	It's in the works somewhere, I think.
	Wow.
	Sounds like punishment.
	It does.
	It does.
	I will not be watching it.
	Awful.
	Yeah, I mean, it's two dudes just agreeing, like, we are right, and we can be as fucking dogshit as we want.
	Yeah, and when we think back to the aims of this conversation that Russell delineated at the start, you know, I want people to know that we are good.
	Do you think we got that?
	Because I'm not sure we did.
	No, but what I just said, they don't care what other people think.
	I want us to agree with each other that we're good.
	That's what he actually did.
	I want confirmation bias from both directions.
	Regardless of our behaviors or beliefs, I want both of us to feel like we're really good.
	And I'm sure that's exactly what they got, which is gross.
	Yeah.
	It's gross to me.
	100%.
	Don't do that.
	Alright, that's our show, everybody.
	Yeah, man!
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	Oh, what I have been telling people at the events lately is...
	I mean, and this is also just true, is that everything's made from recycled, salvaged, reclaimed, or secondhand materials.
	No new parts under the thread, the stuffing, and the pillows.
	So you get to be as smug as you fucking want about your eco-friendly choices when you patronize my establishment.
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	So!
	It's one of the few things we all get to be smug and satisfied about, you know?
	So make the most of that.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And again, the shipping's crazy.
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	Yeah, that's it.
	That's it.
	And Phyllis Lafley's still dead.
	Yes, indeed she is.
	Yes, indeed she is.
	Patrons, we will see you Sunday for some off-brand goodness, but the rest of you will see you next week.
	Take care of yourselves and each other.
	Thank you very much.
	We love you.
	Bye!
	That's not win-win-win.
	That's lie-lie-lie-lie-lie-lie-lie.

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