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Dec. 28, 2023 - On Brand

02:34:02

OB #35 - Christmas Special 2023!

We tackle Russell's Christmas special episode, which is neither festive nor special! Support us on Patreon! - patreon.com/OnBrand Buy a magnet! - forallyourfridgebasedneeds

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	This is On Brand, a podcast where we discuss the ideas and antics of one Russell Brand.
	I'm Al Worth, and each week I go through an episode of Brand's Show with my co-host Lauren B. That's me, Lauren B. And I don't know what we're in store for this week, but I know it's not going to be good.
	It is not going to be good, which is why we do the good thing before the bad thing.
	Lauren, what is your good thing before the bad thing this week?
	I might have just been wiped.
	Again!
	Again, yeah, I...
	Fuck, seriously.
	I had a thing that I thought of and lost it.
	Would you like me to go first?
	I'm so sorry, Jesus Christ.
	It's fine.
	These technical difficulties have just made my brain completely short circuit.
	We've been having a minute of technical fun that we've hopefully now fixed, but we'll find out.
	Yeah, my good thing before the bad thing this week is, it's a very simple one, but honestly, just some time off.
	Well, I mean, technically I haven't really had that yet, because we've been doing the show, but everything's been a bit of a scramble.
	But even just the, like, this morning I got to sleep in a little bit, that was pretty nice.
	Just the concept of it at the moment is warming my heart.
	Because this time of year, around Christmas and everything, you know, normally...
	Folks like you and I don't really get time off in general, but around this specific time of year, the whole world stops.
	And so it's almost like an enforced, like, no, no, you have to stop now.
	Okay.
	And yeah, just a little bit of time to chill.
	And you know, there's still family chaos and whatever else, and I'm cooking Christmas dinner and all of that.
	So there's There's still a lot going on and to do, but yeah, just the idea of it not having too much work pressure and all that stuff around it is good, yeah.
	Good for the brain!
	Absolutely.
	I mean, I we definitely like usually use this time to catch up on stuff.
	So there's not a lot of relaxing and we're staying, you know, we're not going back home this year for Christmas, which is is fine.
	We're The couch is calling.
	The couch and the TV are calling.
	And I'm answering.
	Sounds good.
	Yeah.
	I'm hitting it pretty hard.
	So we'll be... This is gonna be published after Christmas, but we're still recording before... Yes, yes.
	At the moment, yeah.
	The big day.
	Exactly, yeah.
	So... Oh, man.
	I am happy about... I'm having a very grade school worksheet moment right now.
	Do you want me to help?
	You went out last night, is that helpful?
	Yeah, yeah, you know what?
	I think dry erase board games.
	Is something that I take for granted until some I'm presented with it.
	And it's so fun.
	And so yeah, I'm gonna go dry.
	I'm happy about dry erase board games and friends that have more presence of mind than I do to like, enjoy them.
	And it was the first time I've done anything like that in a while.
	Nice.
	And I get to shower regularly again.
	That's very cool.
	Now that the Christmas crunch is finally... I don't have a choice.
	It's like speeding to the finish line and then...
	And then you're there and it's going to stop one way or another.
	So that's like, and I mean, you know, I even, I don't know, I, it's hard to wind down when you're like going at breakneck speed.
	So I still like slowing to nothing gives me almost as much anxiety as the go, go, go.
	If not worse, because then I feel like one, I'm like, okay, I'm not doing something I should be.
	And two, there's still stuff that I want to do, but then I forget because my brain is so exhausted.
	And then a couple of days from now, I'll be like, fuck, I was planning on taking care of this and getting ahead instead.
	We just you know like I forgot and so that's been it's a it's it's a dance but also just like being able to go and chill like unexpectedly like getting to just pick up and do a thing is very very very cool.
	What game did you play out of interest?
	I don't remember the name of it.
	It was like a thrift store acquisition, but basically it was like playing the game of telephone but drawing.
	Telestrations.
	Telestrations is what he played.
	Yeah, okay, that sounds right.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I know the game.
	Yeah, I was about to ask if it was that one.
	And that one is an absolute hoot, especially with people who can't draw.
	It's really fun.
	So yeah, it's the game of telephone, or what we call in this country, Chinese whispers.
	Oh!
	Right.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Terrible.
	Needs to be changed.
	It might have changed.
	Hopefully they've changed it in schools, at least.
	Someone is calling it something different.
	But that's what it was called when I was a kid.
	Yeah, it was never culturally problematic.
	That's the one thing, like, we were okay on that.
	Yeah, that's the one thing that you guys have.
	From the time I was a child, playing the game of telephone.
	But yeah, it's fun.
	It's that with pictures.
	Yeah, it's that, and it is fun.
	I think that people get really, and this happened a little bit, people get really self-conscious, because Mike and I are both playing.
	Mike and I both draw.
	To some degree as a job.
	And people can get really self-conscious.
	And I hope this is helpful.
	I mean, I know that internalizing something about a self-conscious feeling is a bit of a fool's errand, but I want to try, dear listeners, everyone within the range of my voice right now, being able to draw Is not what it sometimes will actively hinder your ability to communicate an idea in a picture because you overthink it or it's a definition that like you aren't really like you're not really like you're seeing it in your head a certain way but I am thrilled
	By some of the interpretations that were extremely effective in communicating an idea.
	There was a stick figure water skiing that our friend Kyle drew that I'm in love with.
	It was so cool.
	Right.
	This is it, like, especially with that game, like, the best and the funniest dancers, which is the aim of the game, let's be honest, they're always the people who can't draw for shit, and that is great.
	Well, and it just, it doesn't matter, like, it really doesn't.
	No, absolutely doesn't.
	At all.
	It's the same as, you know, being good at charades or whatever, it's like, no, no, no, the funnier ones are the better, like, that's what makes it a fun game.
	Well, and it's your consideration and, like, the ability to communicate.
	It has nothing to do... So, like, please, everyone, I implore you, do not feel self-conscious about the ability to draw or not.
	It just isn't a value judgment you should put on yourself.
	I hear it all the time and it drives me nuts.
	So that's interesting.
	I think that's because you're an artist, though, whereas I've never had anyone be self-conscious about their drawing ability around me.
	Musical ability is a different question, however, of course.
	So, you know, I think it's just, yeah.
	It's a thing as though because we are educated in that field, we would then be judgmental over it, and it's like, oh, no, no, no.
	No, no, no, no.
	No, it's fine.
	If you're putting any amount of effort in, I love you, well done.
	Also, like, the creative impulse is much more often a curse than a blessing, so just... I had a moment where I was like, we're gonna talk about salaries right now if you keep complaining about your drawing ability, how about that?
	How about we pull up our bank accounts and then we'll see what's actually productive and, like, valued in our society.
	Because I was a little sick of it.
	There is also that.
	Guess what doesn't matter?
	Drawing ability and the fact that your underarm goes a little bit wobbly.
	A little bit jiggly.
	Those are the two things no one, fuck, stop caring, please.
	If there was a switch I could flip for the human race.
	There'll be that one.
	Knock it off about caring about those two things.
	Oh god.
	I'll let y'all keep cellulite.
	Fine.
	But the arm wobble, because especially in tattooing, every woman and a number of, I mean, everybody would immediately be very self-conscious.
	And like part of my job was squishing body parts to stretch them.
	I have no value judgment in my heart towards you.
	It's fine.
	Does it work?
	I just want to make it the right thing so I can work on it.
	Does your arm drive your car and feed you?
	Great!
	Then stop!
	Stop complaining about it!
	Please stop allowing that impulse to occupy space and energy in your mind!
	It's not worth it!
	Those are the two things that are like, stop!
	Please!
	This is not where I was expecting this show to go, but yeah, I don't disagree!
	You know?
	Climate change, world peace, we'll work on it.
	I don't disagree.
	But right now, I need everybody to stop these two things.
	Everybody, love your bodies.
	We all have weird bodies, that's all fine.
	And they're all weird, so they're all normal.
	So just, it's fine.
	It's fine, everybody.
	And I'll wiggle my middle-aged arm as much as I possibly can.
	It's fine.
	We should just move on from that as a species of being a concern.
	And we'll move on from it as a show as well.
	Exactly.
	We have something to deal with today.
	Normally, in this spot, we'd thank some new Patrons, but honestly, we're recording this in pretty quick succession with the last one, so we'll save that up until the New Year, which feels weird to say, but yeah, the next thing that we're recording after this will come out in the New Year, so that, yeah.
	Dad jokes abound on that very subject.
	However, if anyone does want to support us and what we do, become an Awakening Wanderer, join the Invisible Hand, or donate on an elevated tier, head to patreon.com slash onbrand, and you will have our eternal gratitude.
	It is this which allows us to be editorially independent and ad-free, and as a patron you will also get a shout-out on the show and access to our patron-only show, Offbrand, where we talk about pretty much anything but Russell Brand.
	And please note that while you can listen to our audio version anywhere you can find podcasts, you can also watch us on YouTube, or if you listen in the Spotify app, the video should come up there too.
	So, this week, well, Russell has been promising a Christmas special.
	As a matter of fact, he was specifically threatening a Christmas special with Tucker Carlson.
	But it seems for whatever reason that fell apart.
	What a shame.
	I am not sorry about not having to deal with that.
	Instead, we have a different guest to look at.
	And Russell has a tendency to release trailers of his conversations with guests, right?
	And I usually don't play them because they're just overblown nonsense, but this one I kind of want you to see.
	People seem more and more adrift from even the most rudimentary morality.
	How is it that we find our way back to Christ, or at least back to the divine, in such a rational, materialist, reductive, and at some points painful time?
	The system will not stand for something new which is beginning or something which is being rekindled, let's say.
	You can feel everything is running out.
	Today I'm speaking with Jonathan Pajoux.
	He's a French-Canadian artist and storyteller and philosopher.
	We talk about Christianity and its ability to transform reality.
	We talk about the mystery of suffering.
	There's so much fantastic stuff.
	God wants us to be the best version of ourselves.
	He wants us to be shining images of His glory and His love.
	The idea that Christ doesn't want us to suffer is just not true.
	The idea that God doesn't want us to suffer is just not true.
	I don't need to understand everything.
	I don't want to go on like this.
	I don't want to go on like this.
	I need transformation.
	Drama!
	It's a pleasure to be here.
	I'm very excited.
	I hear this is your Christmas episode.
	I thought, what better way to celebrate Christ than with Jonathan and Pajo.
	Drama, indeed!
	Wow.
	Yeah, what better way to celebrate Christ than a discussion with this guy about how great Christ is.
	Anyway, yeah, judging by that trailer, we're all about to have some kind of revelation just by watching this content, so use caution, everybody.
	You're gonna have an experience, apparently.
	Lauren, do you have any idea who Jonathan Pageau is?
	I don't.
	No, no, I don't blame you.
	Don't blame you.
	I had no clue until Russell mentioned him.
	So, Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian artist, carver, and public speaker known for his work in traditional Christian iconography and symbolism.
	So he was born and raised in Quebec and he developed a deep interest in art and religious symbolism from a young age.
	His journey into iconography began as a personal quest to understand and reconnect with traditional Christian art forms.
	His expertise lies in carving Christian icons and liturgical art, primarily in wood and stone.
	He's apparently studied under masters of both iconography and fine art.
	He has gained recognition for his intricate carvings that reflect deep theological meanings, often incorporating elements from Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and other Christian traditions.
	Fine so far.
	We've spoken about the value of religious-inspired or motivated art plenty of times on this show, and this falls into much the same kind of category, right?
	I was gonna say, like, okay.
	We overlap there as far as our interests go.
	Completely fine.
	If you can create something beautiful or moving, then awesome, regardless of the motivation behind it.
	So, where are the red flags on this guy?
	Well, so apart from his artistic endeavors, Jonathan Pageau is also well known as a public speaker and lecturer.
	His discussions often delve into how ancient symbols and patterns can still resonate in modern culture.
	I'm still fine.
	I'm still okay.
	I'm just checking and like, okay.
	Yeah, that's an influence on modern culture, okay.
	Yeah, no, I know, it could be completely fine.
	I'm like, still okay?
	I'm still okay?
	Well, I'll put my little red flag when I'm like, beep!
	Boop!
	Yeah, so he's pretty active.
	He's got a YouTube channel and social media platforms, and he uses these to share his insights on symbolism, art, and the role of tradition in contemporary society.
	That line, specifically, was a red flag to me.
	I'm like, ooh, tradition and contemporary.
	Okay, so how does his commentary play out, anyway?
	I was gonna say, that could mean a lot of stuff.
	It could go in so many directions, right?
	That's not, in and of itself, we have a problem.
	No, it's not.
	How about I tell you what is?
	So, a good chunk of his content is discussing various Bible verses and whatever, which, fine, right?
	But a more significant chunk is discussing pop culture and how it relates to Christianity.
	A prime example of this is from back in 2021 when Lil Nas X released Montero.
	Yup, so that song and video more specifically unleashed a wave of satanic panic as a response, as well as a lot of coded messaging that was racist, homophobic and transphobic in nature.
	Basically the internet was one big dog whistle for a while.
	Jonathan Pajot released a 37 minute video in response to the song saying that homosexuality is a solipsistic rebellion against nature and that Lil Nas X is promoting Satanism.
	Only he does do a fair bit of dancing around the subject in pretentious language, much like For instance, Jordan Peterson would.
	Oh, and this guy is really good friends with Jordan Peterson and has appeared in multiple videos and podcasts with him garnering millions and millions of views.
	In fact, he's the one that Jordan Peterson is talking to in the infamous clip of him breaking down and crying.
	It's a conversation with Jonathan Pageau.
	Aww.
	Yeah, yeah.
	We didn't get that in our episode and I'm bummed.
	Yeah, right?
	To go back.
	Yeah, Peugeot's own social media following only seems to be like a few hundred thousand, so he's much lower on the totem pole than Jordan Peterson is, however.
	But yeah, he's regularly featured on Peterson's channel.
	Ugh, the arts.
	Can't catch a break.
	Yeah, right.
	So yeah, that's who we're dealing with today in a nutshell.
	What better way to celebrate Christ?
	Okay, well then, before we get into the problematic, I want to make explicitly clear That most of the coolest art that's ever been made by humans is absolutely religious art.
	And I think that there is, from time immemorial to today, I think that the way that humans approach religious and symbolic art Says so much about us as like our brains and our emotional state as a species it's so fascinating especially like but Byzantine and like Russian Orthodox Greek Orthodox the way that they.
	They have very stylized art styles that can kind of get shit on by art history study, because it's not this Renaissance Sistine Chapel-looking thing.
	Maybe it's a mosaic, or it's a lot more flat and stylized.
	You know, Egyptian representations are very stylized to the point where they don't really look like the, you know, it doesn't look like a picture.
	It's a representation.
	And I do think that they get shit on a little bit as far as like art study goes.
	So I perked up whenever you mentioned, you know, like Eastern Orthodox church art and he wants to... He is Eastern Orthodox himself.
	Gotcha.
	Gotcha.
	That makes sense.
	I'm pretty sure that's an example of some of his work in the back behind him, by the way.
	I haven't checked on that, but I'm 99% sure he will have made that.
	So, you know, and I've not really checked out much of his work, but it seems good, seems fine.
	Yeah, again, no problem with him as an artist, just a problem with him as a person.
	Absolutely.
	Well, that's the thing is, I don't want to venture into the territory at all of being like, this is stupid.
	And also, if we're having a reality-based conversation, which there's some amazing TikTokers that do this.
	There's some really awesome theologians and even just biblical scholars that do a lot of debunking and explaining.
	So there is a part of this that could be and is this kind of content that's Rational and cool and interesting.
	So let's not, and not, I mean, not you and I, I mean, listeners, like, I think that judging out the gate is not always pertinent, and then that's exactly what we're going to do right now.
	So it's like, you know, don't let this person Put you off in a general sense, is what I'm saying.
	No, no, no.
	Don't let him put you off the art.
	No, I think that's fair.
	And also, you know, being Christian is perfectly fine, but the way that these two do it, less so.
	Yeah, and so with that, let's get into the first proper clip of the interview to see what I mean.
	I suppose, let's think about where we are in this period of time.
	There are some people that will say this is the winter solstice.
	There are other people that will say that this period of festivity has long lost its meaning or perhaps has become a true symbol of the one global faith of materialism, rationalism, commerce and commodification.
	I wonder, Jonathan, how intelligent and awakened people can reclaim Christianity as a meaningful ideology in the sort of post-atheist period when the devil has had all the best tunes, when the intelligentsia have had all the best riffs, when it can be harder and harder to access divinity When people see more and more adrift from even the most rudimentary morality, a time of despair, a time that sometimes feels like revelations is being played out among us, how do you, and I understand that you use, you know, when we spoke briefly before,
	You said that, you know, sort of Eastern orthodoxy, I think is what you said.
	How is it that we find our way back to Christ or at least back to the divine in such a rational, materialist, reductive and at some points painful time?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so we've got the usual shit-flinging at rationalism and secularism, not a particular surprise from Russell these days when discussing the virtues of Christianity.
	Though I do have to stop here for a second, because when I was listening to this I did have to think, like, look how far we have come from the Dawkins episode where I was like, whoa, this guy's a Christian!
	You know?
	To now.
	Back then he was still masking and obfuscating a lot of it to a degree, but boy oh boy how times have changed in just like, you know, six months!
	I think that also, like, it depends on the person he's talking to also.
	Well, I don't know, I don't know, because he will still happily just be like, I love Jesus!
	To pretty much anyone, but I think it's more a reflection of his audience shifting, because yeah, There's nothing wrong with being Christian, you know, so that there's not ostensibly any reason to hide it, theoretically, but most of Russell's older audience knew him as spiritualist or Buddhist in some, you know, some general kind of woo of some kind.
	But now, as he has properly courted the alt-right conspiracy theorist crowd, especially after all of the allegations against him, 99% of them are the hardcore Christian right-wing in the US specifically, militantly so, which means Russell does not have to dance around it even a little bit anymore and can have conversations like this just out in the open.
	Well, but his Instagram for the community event that he throws every year is still signed Hare Krishna.
	Right, still very woo, still very woo, but that's more of the UK.
	That's very explicit.
	That's more of the UK audience, isn't it?
	You see, there we go.
	So we're just gonna fire that at the UK audience, so they still think I'm all woo and hippy, because they're gonna be the ones going.
	We'll see just the event, like that event is like, the marketing is very specific and seems wildly cynical when taken in totality, wouldn't you say?
	I would.
	I would.
	Yeah, it's not good.
	Anyway, apparently we're in the post-atheist period, and I have to ask when the atheist period was, because that seemed to pass me by without my noticing.
	I seemed to miss the moment when all the world leaders were atheists, and when governments made efforts to keep state buildings secular and non-religious, and when the amount of atheists in the world overtook that of the number of religious people.
	I missed all those things happening.
	Do you remember that?
	That is bonkers to hear.
	And I mean, it does speak to – and we have these moments where I can see how he could rationalize saying something like this in the UK, but as far as a US audience, I I mean, you'd have to really drink the Kool-Aid to believe that, like, in America.
	Like, that's a certain, that's a special breed of, like, belief that has no bearing on reality.
	That's completely destroyed from reality.
	I think that's disjointed, even in the UK, even though half of us are atheists over here, but we are still legally speaking, and everything else, a Christian country.
	Every bloody school in the country will be going to churches at Christmas.
	That is a thing that happens.
	I was dragged to churches.
	I had to walk from my school to the local church for a service every fucking year.
	And, yeah, deeply uncomfortable.
	And after going, I think, once or twice, I would intentionally try and skip school.
	I was like, I don't want to do that.
	And my mom was like, yep, fair enough.
	I mean, it's like, that's something that's just like, it's never at least, it's never put that way by the American version of what Russell is putting out.
	Do you know what I mean?
	Like, that's something that I just don't, I think might fall a little flat with I hope.
	I hope it's completely nonsensical to me.
	Same.
	It's just so not true, as it applies to our laws and all the stuff.
	It applies to society in general.
	So we're in the post-atheist period, and intelligent and awakened people need to reclaim Christianity as a meaningful ideology.
	Christianity needs reclaiming, according to Russell, because it's been on the down and outs for so long.
	It's a very interesting way to address and exploit the persecution myth.
	It's an interesting angle that is more subtle than what I'm used to hearing, I guess, as I wonder if there's almost like a tiny aspect of the MAGA movement, but with Christianity in there, you know?
	Just make Christianity great again, you know?
	How do we reclaim it?
	It's been bad for so long.
	How do we reclaim it?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I mean, to say the MAGA plus Christianity, to me, I'm like, oh, that's the same thing.
	There's no, there's no, like, divorcing it.
	Yeah, no, yeah.
	But it's a, it's a more subtle, instead of, like, we're being, you know, like, instead of, like, screaming, like, with a sign on the corner of a street and claiming that, like, a drag queen story hour is the devil incarnate.
	Like, that persecution, like, and how dare this person, you know, like, whatever.
	And, and so that, like, kind of, like, very, um, publicly kind of vitriolic attack Is a little more the American flavor, I guess, of claiming persecution when obviously there's special exceptions constantly being made for religion and for Christianity in particular.
	And even other religions do not have the same rights and aren't held at the same degree.
	At all.
	Not at all.
	And so this is a more subtle, I think, I guess that's what I'm saying is like, and I think that we need to keep an eye on the subtle stuff, because that's usually what works and permeates into the wider culture.
	Yeah, I can assure you, however, there are parts of this conversation that are way less subtle.
	I'd be disappointed if they weren't at this point.
	I know what to expect-ish by now, kinda.
	There are things that I didn't expect in this conversation, but we'll get to it.
	Pajot has a tendency to waffle quite a bit, much like his counterpart Jordan Peterson, so I'm going to skip to the actual relevant portion of his answer where he's discussing the story of the nativity.
	We have to look for seeds, that's the best way to think about it, because the big system is going to run out.
	And what's left to find is the new beginning or the new seed.
	And this is what the story of Christmas is.
	And obviously, the story of Christmas is a very dark story, by the way.
	You know, we tend to think about it as being very hopeful.
	But when the seed appears in the world, King Herod sends his soldiers to kill all the children.
	Right, to hunt down that seed.
	And so this is something that we have to understand is going to happen as we look for hope, is that the system will not stand for it.
	You know, the system will not stand for something new which is beginning or something which is being rekindled, let's say.
	But at the same time, it's an adventure.
	You know, there's a weird thing.
	You know, you talked about how the devil had all the best tunes and that is also kind of running out.
	It's like as we're drowning in porn and video games and mumble rap and, you know, a kind of culture that's Hollywood is failing.
	Disney is going bankrupt.
	You can feel everything is running out.
	and in that moment the surprise of finding that being a christian for example is the most rebellious thing you can do or that you know going getting married and having children and you know and trying to live a decent life is The most punk rock thing that you can do at the moment.
	So I think that there is in that in that Type of attitude to look at it like, you know, you are going to be against the world that is what's going to happen and it has a cost but it also has a There is a kind of secret hope in that, you know, to know that that's how it's going to go.
	Okay, there's a lot.
	Okay, so firstly, if you try and rekindle something, I'm assuming he's referring to Christianity here and reclaiming and rekindling that.
	If you're going to try and do that, it's going to be like the nativity when Herod tried to kill all the babies.
	They're going to try and kill all your kids.
	The system is coming for your kids, everybody.
	That's a good start.
	Yeah.
	And yeah, being a Christian, it's the most rebellious thing that you can do.
	I mean, there's such a minority of Christians and such a minority of people settling down and having kids these days.
	That's apparently such a minority that it's punk rock, is what it is.
	Fucking youth pastor ass.
	Dude, this is youth pastor backwards chair, like, very bog standard, I'd say.
	It does speak to how little church you have had to put up with in your life.
	Cause I'm like, this is- Even, even I recognized that as youth pastor bullshit.
	I was like, this is, this is some shit here.
	That's almost verbatim of plenty of my, like, and it was cringe then.
	Having a family is punk rock.
	Like, okay, being a Christian is rebellious!
	I thought wearing umbros was a cool choice, and I still knew it was cringe when I was 12.
	Like, come on!
	Let's get real here.
	I was in Looney Tunes sweatshirts the first time, and I was like, ah, this is a bit much, guys.
	Nah, dawg, like, you know, like, uh-uh.
	Yeah, I had, like, Taz's butt on my back, like, screen-printed with, like, a backwards hat, and I was like, I think this sounds a little cringe.
	Like, it's... I don't know.
	In fairness, if someone gave me that shirt today, I would be pretty pleased.
	Well, they're very expensive now, and god bless.
	I bet they are, I bet they are.
	Good luck.
	Yeah, go.
	More power to y'all.
	That's excellent.
	As for his point about, you know, becoming a Christian or being a Christian being a rebellious act, what year is it?
	Right?
	It's 2023.
	Okay, 2023 years since what?
	Since Jesus up and died is what?
	So, if there's a great battle, right, between all religions as to which is the biggest and theoretically most correct, Christianity is so huge it redefined how we perceive time itself.
	So maybe Christianity have won that fight just a little bit, but no, being Christian is an act of rebellion, along with the other 2.5 billion Christians on the planet who are apparently all rebels.
	Which, incidentally, does make Christianity the largest religion by population in the entire world, surprising nobody.
	Yeah.
	So, real rebellious.
	And atheism, by contrast, sits at around 1.2 billion people, which is more than I suspected.
	And around half of those, however, are in China.
	Well, yeah, I mean, but okay.
	But yeah, that notion, dude, Also, specifically bringing up the Herod killing the babies thing.
	It is extremely dark.
	It's something that maybe kids don't need to ponder and think about every single year.
	It is the fun, scary part of terrible cartoons we had to watch, or terrible movies we had to watch, because it's fun to get scared.
	Because that's why we like horror movies.
	I wonder where we get this from.
	I mean, maybe a death cold would make you really excited about horror movies as an adult.
	But that's one of those things specifically that I'm always surprised when Christians point to the thing that is catastrophic in the Bible but has no record in history whatsoever.
	I wouldn't mention that.
	If it were me, I wouldn't point to that as like, oh, this terrible thing that absolutely did happen and we take the Bible literally, because there'd be some paperwork.
	There'd be a record of that, you would think, yeah.
	A piece of papyrus.
	Yeah, I feel like in the apologetics camp, they try to stay away from the provably false I just find that interesting.
	I find that interesting.
	And I guess it doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter.
	I think it's funny.
	I think it's a little funny.
	Yes.
	I mean, yeah, Pajero is definitely not scared of the provably false stories, as we will discover, but... I gathered that!
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Oh, and yeah, Hollywood is failing, Disney is going bankrupt, and video games, porn, and mumble rap are representative of the downfall of society.
	Weird list.
	Weird fucking list, I've gotta say.
	They're all the same.
	Video games, porn, and mumble rap.
	No, but also like it's just, it's, it's, I mean, yeah, that's, that's the other youth pastor half of it.
	Yep.
	It is like, yeah, that's, it is very kind of like youth pastor rapping with the hello fellow kids kind of.
	Yes.
	A hundred percent.
	And also like the woke don't pay kind of narrative.
	Again, it just isn't true.
	It's just not true.
	And in one breath, they'll say that we have to fight against this because they're still succeeding, and it's because the devil is behind it and powering everything like an engine.
	And then in the next breath, they'll say, we're winning the war because God is powering our winning like an engine.
	Okay, which one?
	Which thing?
	Which engine?
	Which engine?
	I'm probably getting ahead.
	I apologize.
	No, it's all right.
	I heard that and I was like, eh.
	Yeah, no, no, it sticks in my core a little bit.
	Weird, weird list, weird guy.
	Anyway, Russell, he likes the idea of Christianity being rebellious, surprise, surprise, and so he asks a follow-up question.
	But you also touched on something that somehow traditionalism, conservatism even, certainly Christianity, might be the most rebellious thing that you could do in this.
	Do you think this is because We've reached a kind of moral singularity in our times where we are on the precipice of near nihilism.
	That materialism has brought us to an absolute crisis of meaning.
	That people are still trying to metabolize individual identity into some kind of manner.
	Some alchemy is being practiced where gold is trying to be wrested from the prima, when the prima materia is literally just
	materia rather than something transcendent or ulterior. Do you think that that
	has left us a sort of a junction of nihilism, Jonathan? Yeah, there's a
	relationship between individualism, nihilism and tyranny, which is something
	people might think is funny, but... I do think it's funny, but probably not for
	the reasons he thinks I might.
	mind.
	So there's a relationship between individualism, nihilism, and tyranny?
	Okay, someone could probably make an argument for the first two, right?
	So individualism and nihilism.
	Someone could, though not the argument that Pajot was going to be making.
	But the third?
	Tyranny?
	I get the feeling this isn't going anywhere good.
	I don't think that's funny at all.
	Well, those are pretty dire circumstances for a society.
	Yeah, I don't know why he thinks his audience would find it funny.
	I don't know the answer to that.
	Also, there are problems with what Russell was just saying.
	For instance, Lauren, what do you suppose he means when he says that people are trying to metabolize individual identity into some kind of manner?
	Because maybe I'm sensitive to the issue being on the trans spectrum, but that feels a lot like some coded transphobic shit right there, to me.
	Oh, I didn't get that at all.
	What I heard was, so I do think, and I do think that part of the reason that my opinion and my POV has value in this Project is I think that me and Russell think a lot of the same things are neat, but then Russell thinks they're real, and I think they're a fun, neat history thing.
	And so I was trying to... I was hearing it from... Metabolizing individual identity into a kind of manner.
	Well, I literally was like, in my head I had these neat little books on what alchemy grimoires used to look like.
	It's very cool art books that I use as inspiration for my work and I think is a really interesting part of the human condition.
	And so that's kind of like, I kind of thought he was taking, I mean, making the argument that you can't be a whole person without religion.
	Like you can't just, that's a very crucial- Yeah, that's underlying it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Well, yeah, that's what I heard is like, well, you cannot make it on your own.
	You cannot, and that's one of the big price tags that religion puts on itself is like, You cannot live a full life.
	You cannot be a whole person.
	You cannot be complete without the God-shaped whole in your life, and there's a lot of reasons why people can feel inadequate or feel incomplete, and that is a very convenient answer that doesn't usually actually remedy the problem, but it still wants to sell you the solution over and over and over again.
	So it's very effective.
	I mean, there's a lot of, like, shopping also counts as a problematic solution.
	Consumerism figured that out a long time ago, too.
	It's not just religion.
	There's a lot of very savvy marketing minds that have made this same argument, and it's very effective if you're selling this product because you always need more of it.
	You always need more.
	You're always going to need to buy more toothpaste.
	It's a perishable resource, I guess.
	It's a perishable resource, I guess.
	And that's what I got from it, but also I didn't listen to the rest of it. (laughs)
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	That's all pretty much one thing.
	No, it's interesting how, you know, and it's one of the reasons that it's good that it's not just me doing this show, you know?
	It's good to be able to discuss these things properly.
	Because, yeah, we can have very different perspectives.
	Oh, both come from, like, non-binary brain people.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's kind of fun.
	To hear when, like, oh, me and Russell, like, thought the same book was neat.
	Or, you know, like, thought the same, like, history channel documentary was neat.
	Yeah.
	Or, like, maybe he just watched Full Metal Alchemist recently.
	I don't fucking know.
	Like, it's definitely possible.
	Have you seen that, by the way?
	It's a great show.
	I'm aware of it.
	Yeah.
	I'm more into my stupid 16th century grimoire-like alchemy.
	Because the pictures are neat!
	The pictures are cool.
	That is true.
	The thinking is neat.
	There is a lot of human history in it, too, that's really fascinating.
	And ancient grift.
	Is very well documented in this very real part of our history and culture.
	And that's also fascinating too.
	I think it's funny and silly whenever I'm like, oh, Russell, I watched that documentary too.
	It was pretty sweet.
	Yeah.
	I couldn't sleep either.
	It was a rerun at two in the morning and I was like, yeah, it's pretty cool.
	And then I don't build my mind palace around that, though.
	Yeah, yeah, that's maybe the distinction.
	Okay, so let's get back into Pajot's answer, saying that there's a relationship between individualism, nihilism, and tyranny.
	You know, the way that societies normally work is that we have these buffered structures, right?
	We have this hierarchy of structures where, you know, we're individuals and families and communities and churches and clubs, and there's a sense in which all these buffers, they protect us from the glaring sun of the authority up there, right?
	Because, you know, I don't know, like the different clubs that you can participate in, we all kind of give each other support so that we don't have to always deal with the highest authority.
	Now, with the 60s, it's a good example.
	the 60s, as it moved towards individualism and rebelled against family structure, religious structure,
	and then social structures, schools, all these intermediary structures,
	it actually opens up a door for the government and the authorities to come and take that space
	because that space has to be filled.
	We actually need to have the roads paved and we need things to happen.
	So as we kind of move towards this materialism, it gets filled up.
	So there's a relationship between a movement towards individualism,
	materialism, and the tyranny coming to compensate for our own kind of selfish desires that we,
	you know, as we move towards our own selfish little idiosyncratic desires,
	somebody has to cover all the bases.
	And that ends up being.
	You know, the state, whatever, however you want to phrase it, these growing, growing power structures that start to impose themselves on us.
	And it looks invisible at first, but then when a crisis appears, right, like what happened in COVID, then all of a sudden you can see the tendrils, like they just glow.
	And now you can see how the world has been taken up by all these authoritarian structures.
	The burning question in my mind is, who paved the roads before the 1960s?
	Was it community paving?
	Did churches do it?
	I have to know!
	Who paved the roads?
	I went, wait.
	In my head, I was like, the 60s, huh?
	What do you think happened in the 50s and the 40s that might have contributed very strongly to this new attitude?
	That claims to be on the same side that you are, by the way.
	I mean, that's... Also, so is he using tyranny and fascism interchangeably?
	Because I'm not hearing the F word.
	Yeah, basically.
	Basically.
	Because that's a very different kind of approach to see... Because I can see individualism and nihilism as pillars that would support Yeah, sure.
	That's like it because there's two sides to every coin right so like that kind of like there that I don't disagree fundamental like as the idea I mean I you know I was coming from It's still kind of like, ah, we're not connecting all the dots here.
	I think we've run across what is one of the main problems in trying to have a conversation with these people, which is there needs to be a definition of terms from the outset.
	And we do not have this man's definition of tyranny.
	He just likes throwing the word around quite a lot.
	But so we just kind of have to hope that we get the right interpretation of what the fuck he's trying to say.
	So yeah, because the 60s marked a movement, you know, free love and individualism, blah blah blah blah blah, which in turn meant to move away from Christianity, which I don't think is true, but bear in mind this chap is an Orthodox Christian so that might skew his perspective somewhat, but everyone apparently moved away from Christianity in the 60s and that opened the door to authoritarianism and tyranny, which we have of course seen more obviously in the world since the pandemic.
	Sadly, he never really gets into the specific things he thinks are tyrannical about that time, because why would we do that?
	That's kind of where I was mentally, because hearing about all this individualism of the 60s and blah blah blah, and again, I have an American-centric view.
	But I can also understand that our culture gets exported, whether we or y'all like it or not.
	And especially the hegemon that grew out of the 50s and 60s.
	I think that it's convenient for Americans to think that it only affects America, like what we do.
	But that's just not true, and it's very fucking unfortunate.
	So, individualism and collectivism and taking care of each other as a society was a project that was very actively stamped out by the Red Scare and McCarthyism.
	Literally, like, any notion of collective care, mutual aid, not just communism, any amount of, like, a desire to help your neighbors was hunted down And stamped out in our culture by the government.
	McCarthyism was so pervasive, and the Red Scare, the Lavender Scare, all of it, like, was not just a couple of employees in the government.
	It was, it had this chilling effect that we have never recovered from.
	And that is, it has forged, especially if you're looking at, like, the 70s when, you know, like, the Bicentennial and all this, like, patriotic stuff that, like, would have looked weird In previous decades, even to other Americans.
	Also, you're talking about consumerism and basically the ideal of the American dream, yeoman, farmer, rugged individualist.
	That notion of patriotism is forged in this time very deliberately.
	And so this isn't just a, I don't know man, Jimi Hendrix played some dudes and shit got weird.
	No, no, that's not what we're dealing with.
	No, it was very much a counterculture.
	It was a response.
	It was a reaction.
	Yeah.
	That's the thing.
	There's such... Oh, man.
	I'm sorry about talking about reality.
	I'm sorry about knowing history.
	No, it's okay.
	It's okay.
	It's just not me.
	It's just not the things that these people traffic in, it's not reality.
	Yeah, but also Quebec is like, I mean, I don't know, I can't speak to where this guy is coming from because it is a very different culture, but at the same time, like, I know how, you know, I know how, you know, American attitudes are permeated everywhere and just that kind of like, yeah, it's...
	Yeah, pretty much.
	In the next clip, Russell, he gets a little bit dramatic.
	Yes, and one of the problems of the reification and deification of the state is the state seems to have to, certainly these days in the kind of democracies that you and I are from, It exists as part of a polarity.
	You cannot have an omnipotent state without tyranny.
	You cannot demand the kind of surrender that Galatians would ask of us.
	I've been thinking lately, Jonathan, about the The solution to my crisis of identity is to die on the cross with Christ, that He can be reborn in me.
	These ideas can be found outside, obviously, outside of Christianity.
	I suppose the word Islam itself means surrender.
	I suppose Marcus Aurelius spoke of, you are dead, now live the rest of your life properly.
	But do you think that there is something uniquely benevolent or uniquely nourishing about the idea that we, obviously you do because you're a Christian, but what is uniquely nourishing about the Christian surrendering the self, not to the state, your new material God, whether you live in a communist or capitalist country but to something higher and indeed does
	that make you and how and is that is that a radical proposition and does that
	radical proposition involve the taking up of arms I mean that
	metaphorically what
	yeah Yeah, right?
	Even the guest is like, METAMORPHICALLY!
	You stole my line, dawg!
	What the fuck?
	Holy shit.
	So does that involve the taking up of ARMS?
	I mean, that metaphor.
	Like, even, yeah, even Pajot fucking recognises, like, ah, you don't mean that, do you?
	What are we doing?
	This is literal Alex Jones tactics here, like, oh, someone should kill him politically.
	It's the exact same thing.
	I'm going to be honest, it surprised me because this is the first time we've heard even hushed tones of Russell calling for violence.
	Here we are, and it's over religion, no less.
	Like, one would think it would be over tyrannical governments, or Joe Biden, or Big Pharma, or some fucking thing, or COVID lockdowns or something, but no, no, we should take up arms to propagate the radical proposition that is Christianity.
	I mean, what the fuck?
	Well, it sounded like he would argue that it was in reaction to a tyrannical government, as far as the list that you just...
	I don't know, I don't know.
	I mean, let's listen to the tail end of that clip again.
	To material God, whether you live in a communist or capitalist country, but to something higher.
	And indeed, does that make you, and is that a radical proposition?
	And does that radical proposition involve the taking up of arms?
	I mean that metaphorically.
	ALICE So yeah, for it to be taking up arms to kind of promote Christianity and religiosity, as opposed to what we apparently currently have now... I'm not a fan!
	I don't like this!
	I don't like this narrative whatsoever!
	This is not...
	I mean, we're playing around in a very fictitious world already.
	I know.
	Yep, yep.
	Theoretically.
	Theoretically.
	In that regard, maybe there's an excuse.
	I don't know, man.
	This is a lot.
	It's hard to live in such a fake and continuing to be less accurate presentation of the world.
	I agree.
	I agree.
	However, how many of his audience do you think hear that and see that as fictitious?
	None.
	None.
	Exactly.
	I know.
	Exactly.
	So these people get told to take up arms and much like a certain orange fucking son of a bitch made a bunch of people go for an insurrection, I don't know.
	I'm concerned.
	I'm hoping that this is just like an outlier and this does not come back up again, but I'm gonna be keeping an eye.
	I'm surprised at that.
	Because Russell doesn't seem like a gun guy to me.
	Even as a fun joke.
	No, not at all.
	For someone who otherwise preaches non-violence and all of that shit.
	Because that's the usual thing he goes down.
	Oh, anti-war, no, we shouldn't have violence in protest, we shouldn't blah blah blah.
	Yeah, that's true.
	However, he's also a massive apologist for Jan Six and says that it's all bullshit that was perpetrated by the feds.
	Well, that's because he's stealing Tucker's material, I guess.
	Absolutely, absolutely.
	I'm concerned, anyway.
	I got a little chill down my spine when I heard it the first time.
	I was like, oh, no!
	Don't like that!
	Don't like that!
	But he's joking!
	Why would you go seriously?
	[laughter]
	ALICE: Metaphorically.
	Metaphorically.
	[laughter]
	LARISSA: So funny.
	[laughter]
	ALICE: So, next up we have a story from history from Jonathan Pajot, which I am sure you are
	going to love, Lauren.
	[laughter]
	LARISSA: Well, this is the place where it's, uh...
	(laughing)
	This is the place where Christianity in terms of politics is complicated, you know, in the sense that what Christians believed, at least at the outset, is that you will be able to transform the state, but not through revolution.
	That in fact, the Christians were actually quite, even they were submitted to the state that persecuted them.
	If you think of the early centuries when Rome was authoritarian on top over them, persecuting them, they
	would submit to all the rules that Rome gave them except for the ones that betrayed their conscience,
	except for the ones that were against what they believed to be true beyond what the state
	proposed. So they were actually model citizens and they believed that the transformation that would happen
	would be through self-sacrifice and through self-transformation.
	A good example to understand this is the manner in which, according to tradition, the way that the gladiatorial games ended in Rome.
	These fighters would come and kill each other, and then as Rome was becoming Christian, one day a Christian man went onto the field and stood between the two gladiators and said, You know, stop in the name of Christ.
	And obviously the gladiator just killed him.
	And that was it.
	That was the end of the gladiators fight in Rome.
	Everybody walked out of the stadium and there were no more fights.
	Citation needed!
	So what do you think, Lauren?
	Did this happen?
	Is this story a true?
	I'd be so thrilled if it was.
	Me too, because you know what?
	It's a great story!
	It's a great story, isn't it?
	Watching that play out in a movie?
	Fantastic.
	But yeah, I could find zero evidence anywhere of this actually happening.
	No, no, shocking.
	I am shocked, I tell you.
	That's adorable!
	I know, I know.
	In the interest of fairness, Christianity did have a big influence on the ending of the gladiatorial bouts in Rome.
	So the rise in Christianity brought a shift in moral attitudes towards the value of human life and the brutality of such things.
	And Christian emperors, particularly Honorius in the early 5th century, issued edicts against gladiatorial combat.
	And additionally, the increasing expense of gladiator games and the political and economic instability of the late Roman Empire also contributed to the decline.
	Bingo.
	Bingo, bingo, bingo.
	Ding, ding, ding.
	Christianity was a factor.
	He's not talking about that time.
	He's not talking about that.
	No, no, no, he's not.
	Uh, Christianity was a factor, but there was no Christian leaping between two gladiators getting killed and then everyone walked out and no more gladiator fights ever happened again.
	And the movie Gladiator is a documentary.
	It's a lovely screenplay, I will say.
	And so this might even just... I was expecting the Christians to be turned into torches myth.
	I expected that to be the thing.
	I thought that's where we were going.
	I'm honestly delighted I have a new...
	A new little nugget from this one.
	So yeah, Rome was very explicitly, the Holy Roman Emperor was very explicitly Christian and was from Constantine on, and that was a political choice that was made.
	So that's year 300 stuff, but even before that, well before that, the reality is that Rome made legal carve-outs and negotiated with Christians just
	like other religions, that they would have their own legal carve-outs and exceptions.
	So the notion of persecution, maybe even a persecution myth if you will, that has stayed
	with us till this day, is that it's a great fundraising opportunity if you need to
	cover your legal fees. You know what I mean? Oh yes.
	Gestures to Kyle Rittenhouse, whatever, like, you know, like, or Owen Mitch, any of them, you know, like, but right, so like, there was that, it just wasn't true.
	And so I'm not surprised that you couldn't find any historical background.
	Yeah, yeah, I did a good look and no, no, there's not a thing, there's not a thing, but yeah.
	It's a cute story.
	I do like the notion, like, and this also might be albeit apocryphal, but like, the notion that, like, I think maybe one of the Pope Gregory's, like, made up The myth of, you know, Christians being burned as torches and martyred and stuff to keep locals around the Colosseum from taking the building apart and making walls with it.
	That, in order to make it like a, you know, it's like an early UNESCO heritage move.
	I do think.
	If that's true, and I don't, I haven't, I'm just, I'm speaking from, again, apocryphal, like, kind of little story.
	If we're talking, listen, if we're talking stories, I'm going to throw one in there, too.
	And I do like that kind of, like, that narrative in and of itself, because it's quite clever.
	But, like, maybe the internet has really bit these dudes in the ass as far as, like, availability of, like, historically accurate information.
	Just being able to just quickly Google something on the fly, which is absolutely what I would be doing if I was interviewing this man.
	I would just be like, oh, interesting!
	Typey, typey, type, type, type.
	Oh, you're full of shit, John.
	Charming.
	Oh dear, bless his little cotton socks.
	So, to continue this thought and address Russell's suggestion of taking up arms, Paggio has some weird thoughts on revolution.
	And so, that is in some ways the image of the Christian, which is that through You know, holding on to the true light, and then be willing to sacrifice your own desires for that, rather than thinking, you know, that we're going to raise up and cause a revolution.
	The raising up and causing revolution is actually what brings about tyranny most of the time, if you think of the way that revolutions happen in our history.
	You know, the French Revolution leads to Napoleon, the Russian Revolution leads to Stalin.
	These revolutions usually lead to tyranny.
	Why did you not include the American Revolution?
	Well, the American Revolution is an interesting one.
	It's true, because it's the exception to the rule, and it would be interesting to see why.
	And maybe there are good reasons to look at that to understand why the Americans didn't lead to autocracy, not at the outset.
	Obviously, in the long run now, America Is moving towards autocracy as well, but it did take a few centuries, which is not bad.
	Okay.
	Dude, dude.
	Okay, alright, alright.
	Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
	Firstly, I hard disagree with the premise, and I'd sure love for some more examples from this guy other than Napoleon and Stalin.
	Also, the French have had quite a few revolutions by this point, and definitely not all of them led to autocracy, which is to say nothing of the revolution slash civil war we had in this country to stop the monarchy having absolute power.
	And there are many things that the UK can be described as, and a lot of them aren't fucking good, but autocracy isn't one of them.
	The whole thing is just very historically dishonesty for not a surface level to me.
	The difference is, the ones that he's talking about, the revolution in Russia happened in Russia.
	You're talking about revolutions that happened within their country, not a colony.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	A colony broke off from the country that the colonizers came... That's... Yeah, it's a different situation.
	Looking at a map.
	Makes the notion of the American Revolution fundamental.
	That's a word.
	That does not fit the same definition of a revolution, point blank period.
	The Haitian rebellion didn't affect France at all.
	That's the thing, a colony is so different as far as the mechanics of change.
	It's apples and oranges.
	Yeah.
	That seems really obvious.
	Completely.
	And even then, there are plenty of examples such as the UK where it definitely did not lead to that.
	I don't know.
	I don't think this guy knows that much.
	This is what I'm getting at.
	Also, Russell just this last week was complaining about the new provision of no president being
	able to unilaterally withdraw from NATO, meaning he wants the autocracy in the US.
	He wants there to be a God-King at the top who can make all the decisions, as long as it's not a Democrat.
	Which, I still don't think the U.S.
	is an autocracy, FYI, at least not fully.
	But, like, the Trump presidency did test out the true boundaries of what an individual president can and cannot do, and the results were pretty fucking bleak.
	Yeah.
	I mean, like, yeah, the foundation of our presidency and the balance of power is not effective enough.
	Like, it doesn't do what it claims to do.
	But yeah, it's not, I mean, and there's a lot of issues that I would, any president, like, the balance of power is bad.
	So like, I'm not going to come for that as like a notion, but I know that's not what he's talking about.
	No, no, no, no.
	No.
	Don't want to give him that.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, we're possibly giving too much credit.
	Anyway, Russell wants there to be a dictator at the top.
	I haven't covered a lot of his recent Trump coverage, but especially since the decision in Colorado, oh my god, he has been going off on one about Trump.
	You know, they're calling him a dictator and all this, but he's not!
	He's fine!
	Okay.
	It's spelled out very explicitly in the 14th Amendment.
	Yeah, I know.
	I know.
	If it's that perfect document that they all love so much, then what's the problem?
	States rights?
	No?
	Yeah, I think we... States rights? No? Not now though?
	Not now, not now.
	No, just when it comes to the question of owning people.
	We might have to get into that in a separate episode at some point, but that's its whole other thing.
	Anyway, let's... Oh yeah, so we've got next what appears to be an honest question from Russell.
	If it ain't an entirely theological A proposition, the idea of a resurrection in a type of the way that even a secularist could appreciate it.
	Reborn unto yourself, present in the moment, the flesh man dies, that the transcendent man may be eternally reborn.
	Joseph Campbell's idea that there is no point in Christ being resurrected 2000 years ago if you and I can't be resurrected moment by moment into a continual present, the only place that God can truly If it's not like a theological proposition that could be understood and appreciated and even to a degree practiced by a secularist, what is it?
	Because when people say stuff like that about Christianity, like, it's better because, you know, you get to be reborn or you get to be resurrected.
	I think, well, do you know?
	I'm not demanding proof, but I'm saying how is that distinct from any pledge made by any myth or any ideology?
	How is it distinct?
	How?
	Other than as a theological proposition.
	Okay.
	A reasonable question, I think, that Paggio apparently wasn't expecting to have to answer.
	And the reason I say it... I wouldn't either!
	No, no.
	The reason I say it appears honest is, well, Russell's presentation of it appears to be so.
	I think he seems fairly genuinely to be looking for an answer to that question and is asking, A well-known Christian apologist, which, okay, fair enough.
	How honest the question is can only really be surmised from Russell's response to Pageau's answer in just a minute, see?
	Because either there's going to be further inquiry and follow-up, possibly some pushback from someone who's done some thinking on the subject, or it's going to be very much a yes-and experience where actually we weren't looking for a genuine answer in the first place, we just needed something to say in response to that argument.
	It's going to be one or the other.
	And so let's hear Pajot's answer in any case.
	And again, because of the nature of how he talks, I'm going to skip to the middle of his answer, which actually relays his main points.
	The story is that that's actually how the world works, right?
	The world works through these death and resurrections.
	And what the story of Christ shows is the limit of that, right?
	It brings it to the limit.
	It gives you an extreme example that lays the foundation for how to experience life in the everyday.
	That, by the way, is what miracles always are.
	Miracles are never just extraordinary things that happen.
	They are always limit cases of how the world works in the everyday.
	And it's the same with saints and martyrs and all this stuff, right?
	You don't have to step in between the gladiators and get killed and become a martyr and then become a saint.
	But that's actually how you live your life with your children.
	That's how you live your life with your wife, with your friends.
	Through these acts of self-sacrifice is how you are able to bind reality together.
	Reality actually binds that way.
	But what happens in sacred stories is that those are brought to the breaking point.
	And so what happens, like, so people say, well, how can you believe in the resurrection, right?
	It's ridiculous.
	Jesus dies three days later.
	And it's like, I believe in the resurrection because it's pointing me to something which is true all the time, every day of my life.
	And so when I hear the extreme case, I think, of course, like, that's what it all leads to, or that's where it all originates in.
	It's like someone dying, and then unreasonably Being raised up from that state.
	Not two minutes later, not like, you know, maybe he was dead, maybe he wasn't.
	No, he was dead.
	And then he rises up and you think, well, actually, that's how everything works.
	That's how my life works.
	That's how everything that is good about my life functions.
	And so it's like, the question is, does the world work that way or not?
	Is the world just like material causes and accidents and chaos?
	Or is this process of dissent and assent actually part of how the world functions?
	And if so, then when I hear the story of the resurrection, I think, It's actually revealing me the pattern of everything.
	So I believe it, because without it, there's something missing.
	There's like a key missing.
	There's a puzzle, and I see it in paganism, and I see it in other religions.
	There are puzzles, but they come together in that one story.
	Boy oh boy.
	So everything that is good about Jonathan Pageau's life apparently works in the way that it all dies and is then brought back to life.
	And that story is the key to the puzzle that is human existence?
	Okay.
	If I was his wife and kids, I'd be super offended that, like, interacting with me was defined as dying and resurrecting.
	How awful.
	Like, how much do you hate your family and friends?
	That's fucking weird, dude.
	I don't like that at all.
	But also, I do see that pattern absolutely play out as this pervasive, no matter what, this martyr and this victim.
	You're always the victim, and you have to prostrate yourself in front of the Lord just to tolerate your wife and your job, your fucking bitch wife.
	Like, really, dude?
	Dark!
	Yeah, now that you mention it, I could have looked into that more.
	I know his wife is still Protestant, I think, whereas he converted to Eastern Orthodox.
	His reporting of his experience of his wife and kids, I don't think it's grounded in any kind of reality, so I don't think that it's worth looking into these people.
	This is his attitude he's bringing to the table, and it has nothing to do with their choices or actions.
	But if I was his wife, I'd be maybe considering divorce at this stage.
	Well, we have a talk.
	This would be a talk.
	A very serious talk.
	Everything that we do is sacrifice, huh?
	Well, and I can't imagine it's everything, but I'm saying, like, anything.
	Like, you're likening the death on a, like, a crucifixion death.
	Suffocating from the weight of yourself nailed into a tree.
	And I just need you to get the groceries out of the car, dog.
	Yeah.
	Can you imagine, if that's the way he perceives it, can you imagine how much this guy must bitch about having to do children around the house?
	Oh, I can imagine it very vividly.
	Very!
	I'd imagine a number of our listeners can as well and is thinking of an example right now.
	Good God.
	Just take out the trash, you animal of a human.
	Okay.
	Be nice.
	Come on.
	Yeah, just fucking be a decent person.
	So little of this Christian worldview includes be nice.
	Really?
	That's true.
	I do feel like that's the bit about Jesus that they often leave behind people like this, you know?
	Sure do.
	Like, oh, just be kind.
	Oh, so all the communism.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly.
	And socialism.
	Whichever.
	So yeah, so Jesus apparently, he made a point there about Jesus.
	No, Jesus fully died and then came back, which is supposedly a big deal.
	And look, this isn't an atheist podcast particularly.
	I don't find any need to spend my time dunking on religions or stories from the Bible.
	But if someone comes back, then they didn't fully die in the first fucking place.
	And we know that because that's how dying works.
	You don't come back from it.
	And any listeners who are doctors, please correct me if I am wrong on that score.
	Like, there's nuances to maybe being, like, medically dead when your heart stops or something, or maybe being in a coma raises some existential questions, but it's not the same as death.
	And maybe, maybe Jesus was in a coma for a few days and then came back from the coma.
	That makes a lot more sense to me and is still perfectly valid as the guy has already at that point in the story taken a legion of abuse and then been crucified.
	The story itself is just as... That's not in the story though.
	That's also not in the story.
	I don't know.
	It's just as impactful even before the point of him dying.
	The death bit is the easy bit.
	The suffering beforehand is much worse compared to the dying part.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Well, he was supposed to be wrestling with the devil, I believe.
	Maybe this is something else.
	But yeah, he was supposed to be wrestling with the devil and then came back, which is his exercise.
	Is that what he's supposed to be doing for three days?
	I don't remember that part.
	I'm piecing some stuff together, don't quote me.
	Maybe.
	But also, yeah, you're only dead for three days.
	It's only three days.
	Yeah.
	There's a lot of exceptions and tangents that you have to accept.
	Yeah, and maybe whoever checked him at the time wasn't that great a doctor or something.
	Oh, I mean, are we dealing with, like, are you and I dealing with this in terms of that it happened?
	Well, I mean, it might have done.
	The thing is, like, history has, like, shown With relative certainty, there was at some point a guy called Jesus.
	I think that's kind of the direction that history has gone.
	Whether any of the other shit happened is a big, big question.
	You still think that's a question mark?
	A guy with that name?
	Yes.
	An influential guy.
	Do we know was that the time it was supposed to have happened?
	ALICE Yeah, I think so, I think so.
	It's been a while since I've looked into this, but yeah.
	But yeah, there's kind of, there's relative consensus.
	Like, yeah, someone was around.
	That's not consensus, I've heard.
	But I mean, also, I kind of don't think it's a useful point.
	We'll put a pin in this.
	Well, no, it doesn't really matter in a lot of ways, but yeah, we'll put a pin in that as to look into that.
	This might be an off-brand situation.
	We might need to do some historical digging.
	I mean, the Mormons really like buying fake artifacts if this is what we're talking about.
	Yeah, this is true, this is true.
	And like I said, it's been a while.
	Hobby Lobby is so good at paying for artifacts.
	That's a fun... What a fun game, being a human.
	In the world?
	Yeah, exactly, exactly.
	And it might be that what I've read is complete horseshit.
	It's definitely possible.
	Who knows?
	But yeah, that might be an off-brand subject.
	Well, did Jesus really exist?
	Don't threaten me with a good time.
	Don't you dare threaten me with a good time.
	That's on my mental whiteboard.
	Oh, cool.
	Yeah.
	That's a Christmas episode for you.
	Praise him for the season.
	You may notice that we don't actually get to see Russell's response to any of this because instead we get a push to an ad break.
	So my whole thing about like, oh his response is what counts, we don't get to fucking see it.
	So who knows whether he was being honest or not.
	But thankfully this time with the ad at least there's like a little stay-free bumper so it's less abrasive than last week.
	However, I'm going to do something I don't usually do on this show and I'm going to play the full ad because you need to see this.
	We can't continue to make this glorious content without your support and the support of our sponsors.
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	Well, I'll tell you, I'm an expert on international trade.
	Countries will clamp down on exports like that, Sonny Jim.
	They will stockpile like it's 1999.
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	As empty as Joe Biden's mind at that moment when someone goes, action, deliver a speech.
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	Now, let's get back into this, shall we?
	Oh, so food back at 2.0.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh, yeah, it feels like something of a graduation to me, from selling just supplements to selling actual medicine.
	So, what's in it, right?
	What's in this thing?
	I'm gonna let you guess at least one of the drugs in this emergency medication kit, Lauren, because I think you'll know the answer!
	Oh, wait, is it Ivermectin?
	No.
	No.
	Yep!
	Yep!
	Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!
	Ivermectin is in there, yes!
	Ivermectin is absolutely in there!
	Oh, one of the premier doctors of the pandemic!
	Well, we know how he's been making his money for a long time.
	I'm not surprised by that.
	I just, well, I've grown up in America the whole time.
	So unfortunately, healthcare is a sticky wicket, right?
	And so I know the medications that, also legitimately, like when my grandma would, you know, retired grandma and grandpa would go and spend their summers in South Texas or in Mexico, they would come back with generic Amoxicillina!
	I took a fair amount of amoxicillina as a child!
	So I know the kind of standard, like, we know this is going to get prescribed and if a doctor prescribes it, you don't got to pay out of pocket and, you know, grandma's just going to bring some back from Mexico, which is how she said it.
	Very charming.
	So I know the kind of stuff that we can kind of keep our you know like a z-pack like that's but also like that stuff has a shelf life like that stuff expires I'm very concerned that this is like much like the you know the food buckets like There is, and also actually the food buckets is different, like you can't just like vacuum seal, and also they're obviously not from the picture, like you can't just like vacuum seal medication, it's not- Yeah, no, those are pill bottles, yeah.
	Yeah, it's pill bottles, it's not stable for a long period of time, so like- Nope.
	This coming from like this kind of survivalist idea is like, that could potentially be really dangerous.
	Maybe?
	Maybe I'm being a ninny, I don't know.
	Well, I can believe that over a long period of time.
	So let's get into what actually is in there.
	So Ivermectin is one of them that immediately stood out to me.
	I was like, oh, of course.
	There's also Ondencetron, which is a medication used to prevent nausea and vomiting caused by cancer, chemotherapy, radiation therapy, or surgery.
	That sounds specific.
	That's what I thought!
	There's amoxicillin clavulinate, which is an antibiotic, fluconazole, an antifungal medication, trimethoprim sulfamethoxazole, another kind of antibiotic, metronidazole, an antibiotic and antiprotozole that can be used for endocarditis and also various Pelvic issues, shall we say.
	Azithromycin, yet another antibiotic, usually used for treating ear infections, pneumonia and diarrhea.
	And doxycycline, another antibiotic, though this one's apparently good for chlamydia and syphilis, so that's nice.
	Yum.
	So, you know how antibiotic resistance is a real problem for humanity that's only getting progressively worse, and in the worst case scenario will lead to many millions of people dying in the long term?
	These folks seem to think that's not a problem.
	Let's just fucking hand them fistfuls of antibiotics and see how they go!
	Yeah, that's really bad.
	That's really, really, really bad.
	I'm consent!
	But also, like, you need, like, there's...
	Well, I know where you're going!
	I know where you're going!
	You need a prescription!
	You need a prescription for all of these!
	Exactly right!
	And here's what it says on the website.
	Quote, yes, the medications in the medical emergency kit are prescription only, but don't worry.
	Follow the instructions in the link after purchase.
	Also email to you to receive your clinical intake form needed to complete your consultation.
	So yeah, you have to fill out a form thing and then have a consultation with It's unclear as to whether you're supposed to go to your own medical professional, whether they provide you with one, but it feels a little bit like the latter to me, because they do also talk about a video consultation.
	So, that's great.
	And as for the cost, you can get all of what I've mentioned for the, well, certainly just for the medication itself.
	I don't know about if there's a consultation fee.
	You can get all of that for the low, low price of $299.99.
	Or $249.99 if you're a member of their site, which is a minimum of $9.99 monthly.
	But of course, if you use brand's code, then you get 10% off and brand will get an affiliate cut.
	The most insulting amount of coupon.
	I know.
	And one would think there would be legal questions when it came to pharmaceutical products and that kind of thing, but no.
	Thanks, America.
	They're very well might be!
	Like, they're very well might be.
	If this makes somebody sick, they can sue the shit out of them.
	That's absolutely true.
	Oh, for that!
	Yeah, no, I just mean Russell, um, you know, selling, you know, taking a cut of, like, this kind of thing.
	There's definitely... there's ethical and moral questions around this that I realize probably don't get asked in your country, but over here, I'm like, eugh, this is not... eugh, okay.
	Some of us are still asking.
	That's a...
	I can't imagine a doctor that would be stoked on this, even in America.
	No, no.
	Well, that's what I thought.
	I was like, what doctor worth their fucking salt is going to sign off on one of these medical forms?
	I can tell you that mom and grandma didn't tell any doctors about the inbox of Selena either.
	So I know that there's a reason.
	There's a reason.
	Yes, exactly.
	And also so much worse.
	But I mean, like, wow.
	Boy, this is bad.
	That's a bad thing.
	That's a bad thing.
	Yeah, when I saw it, I was like, what the fuck is this?
	Antibiotic resistance is so terrifying.
	That's been a boogeyman.
	That's been one of my personal boogeymen for a very long time.
	Tattooing, I used to work around, I had to do my bloodborne pathogen training every year.
	I was with my dad's a chemist and was telling me all about how adding Antibacterial chemicals to soap is bad because soap works fine on its own and so we're just building up resistance for no good reason so when we actually need the stuff then it's not gonna work.
	And I heard about this in like the 90s from chemist dad so like.
	I've been scared of this for a long... Oh, no, also tattooing.
	Mercer is a terrifying... That was the boogeyman that used to keep me up at night.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, rightly so.
	Yeah, antibiotic-resistant infections and stuff like that.
	It's such a... That is... It's not an extinction-level problem, but it's a global crisis-level problem that we are just not handling.
	No, we are not equipped to solve that in any way, shape, or form, and if it occurs in any way kind of quicker than we think it's gonna happen, we are fucked.
	But the people at the wellness company here selling this kit don't seem to think it's a problem.
	Here, have fistfuls of antibiotics, everyone.
	Just take them like they're candy, it doesn't matter.
	Well, yeah, or give us $300 and they'll expire.
	There's a reason you get a prescription when you need the medication.
	Yep.
	Yes, there is.
	Oh, boy.
	So now the next clip is a little bit longer, but Russell gets into talking about some very recent moments of despair in his own life.
	And Pajot has an interesting response.
	I wonder, though, what you feel about the simplicity available in Christianity, as well as the complexity, because there was a point very recently where I was in a pretty despairing and despondent state, and someone sent me, unbidden, a kind of, perhaps you've heard of, Rick Warren, who I understand is a sort of southern evangelist, Who like just said to camera, you know, in a sort of a TV Christianity.
	I like to think of myself as a pretty refined and intelligent guy that I wouldn't be getting my Eucharist via like a Southern Christian TV where there's like a handsome white couple sat on a couch with a Southern evangelist.
	I watched this very simple prayer to camera from Rick Warren where he talked about his
	own son took his life and then he talked about the subsequent despair, even though by that
	time Rick Warren had already sold millions of books and been a very successful pastor
	and this sort of protégé of Billy Graham.
	And he did this prayer where he said, "I put aside my need to understand.
	I don't need to understand how the digestive system works to enjoy a steak or the combustion engine to drive a car.
	Jesus, will you please be with me?
	I've become teachable, I guess.
	Porous is how I sometimes feel it.
	In a time of crisis, Perhaps in an attempt to get beyond the ego, or perhaps in an attempt to cling on to it.
	I've become, you know, the hucksters and charlatans come at me from every angle, offering sort of counsel and advice and like, you know, I could be highly susceptible to any of that stuff.
	And in this sort of prayer, That was just Jesus.
	I don't need to understand everything, but I'm calling on your name.
	I'm calling on your name for help.
	I don't want to go on like this.
	I don't want to go on like this.
	I need transformation.
	It was effective.
	So I wonder what you make of the potential for this to be quite simple. And maybe in a
	sort of ultra-rational, post-Enlightenment, advanced approach in singularity culture, are the
	difficulties of accepting such a sometimes feels like a proposition that has too low an
	entry threshold?
	Um, well first off I would say that... How the fuck do I respond?
	This is, in some ways, the mystery of suffering.
	You know, this is also the mystery of what Christ offers, is that Christ doesn't... This is annoying for a lot of people.
	The idea that Christ doesn't want us to suffer is just not true.
	The idea that God doesn't want us to suffer is just not true.
	You know, God wants us to be better.
	God wants us to be the best version of ourselves.
	He wants us to be shining images of His glory and His love.
	And whatever it takes, man.
	Okay.
	I mean, I at least respect the honesty there of like, yep, God wants you to suffer, so fucking suffer.
	Like, okay!
	Like, there's more to his answer, predictably, but that honestly about sums it up.
	He's got the main thrust of the guy's point.
	So, Russell has... And the Bible.
	Yeah, and the Bible, right?
	That's congruous.
	Yeah.
	Russell has been suffering in recent times, apparently, in very recent times.
	One can only imagine why.
	Yeah, and the fall was kind of rough.
	Yeah, just a little bit.
	If it's because of the reasons I think it is, good!
	I hope he feels like a terrible person for the rest of his days or until some justice has finally been fully fucking served for his prior actions, which I will not recount today because it's a Christmas episode.
	And in those moments of despair, someone sent him a thing from Pastor Rick Warren, the televangelist.
	Though he doesn't seem to be the absolute worst of the televangelists.
	He has still previously equated homosexuality with paedophilia and strongly opposed gay marriage.
	But on the other hand, he does apparently want to work with Muslims to solve the world's problems.
	Yeah, I'm gonna go with mixed bag on this guy, but also, no, not great.
	Not great.
	Yeah.
	Nonetheless, Russell was quite drawn in by this guy, which is both interesting and not terribly surprising, because as Russell said, he thinks of himself as refined and intelligent, and predictably, I think his self-perception may be off just a little bit.
	Which we're all susceptible to.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, it's very true.
	It's very true.
	That's a very human feeling, but then what you do with it and the reflection you put back onto yourself is how we learn and grow.
	Fighting an excuse to not feel bad for being publicly, credibly accused of rapes is not...
	But you know what?
	Televangelists are awesome at that.
	They're experts at rationalizing and excusing that behavior.
	Yeah, and selling forgiveness in general.
	Fantastic.
	It'll be interesting to see if Russell goes any further down that particular rabbit hole
	and if there are any effects on his show because of it.
	And I dare say I think there have been some already.
	The increased religiosity of Stay Free with Russell Brand since September has been marked
	and noted.
	I don't know, I wonder if there is a little bit of televangelist influence there.
	Well, we've heard this before.
	It's like, well, I thought I'm an intelligent with it person and I can identify problematic behavior.
	But I just I find myself agreeing with Trump.
	Oopsie poopsie.
	I just I tumbled into this like a butterscotch and now I'm just sloshing around in it.
	Like, what did I do?
	Oh, no.
	Oops.
	That's exactly what I'm hearing again.
	Like, yeah, it's a man.
	Yeah, this is a song and dance.
	I, uh, boy.
	Yeah.
	That's, mm, that's, nope, that's not an, mm, I don't.
	I do always enjoy it when you're rendered speechless by this man.
	Yeah, it's... I'm holding it back.
	I'm making a choice.
	Yeah, fair enough.
	Yeah, none of it's great, none of it's great.
	So, Jonathan Pageau has another similarity to Jordan Peterson with his content and videos, and that's the discussion of stories and fables and comparing them to religion and doing that kind of thing, right?
	We heard it with Pinocchio and Jordan Peele, so we got that.
	And in this one, Jonathan Pageau and Russell genuinely spent 15 minutes discussing the story of Snow White and the Christian iconography within.
	And here we're getting towards the tail end of it, where they're discussing the apple in Snow White.
	In the original version, it says that the apple was polished smooth like a mirror.
	That's the mirror.
	That's the Queen's mirror.
	The Queen's mirror is not a magic mirror, really.
	It's just a mirror.
	It's self-conscious beauty.
	It's the capacity to see yourself from the outside, to judge yourself in terms of your beauty.
	And that's what makes you put on makeup, let's say.
	So that's what's going on in that story.
	Make yourself conscious of your beauty and that will destroy it or kill you.
	And the primary relationship is the relationship with the self.
	That the self has replaced God.
	Your primary relationship with the external world is a replication, a reciprocal relationship with the self.
	The self has become the deity.
	That's cool.
	That's really cool analysis.
	So is that the function of the apple then in Genesis?
	It has to do with knowledge.
	I think that's what it is.
	I'm pretty sure.
	Because in the biblical story, it has to do with knowledge, which leads to self-consciousness, right?
	So Adam eats the apple, and then he feels naked, and now he has to cover himself.
	In the Snow White story, it's kind of reversed, where the Queen is Enticing her to cover herself.
	Enticing her to put something out there, right?
	To put on the decorative comb, to wear a corset, to enhance her beauty.
	In Adam and Eve's story, it happens in reverse, where they eat the apple first and then they want to cover themselves.
	But it's still the same structure.
	If you see it from outside, you can see how it's the same pattern.
	It's not!
	It has to do with self-consciousness, the problem with self-consciousness.
	Yes.
	In our version of Snow White, for example, we have her holding a hand mirror and it's a phone, like she's holding a phone.
	You can see it in the image, right?
	She's holding this hand mirror and looking at herself.
	It's like that reflection, you know, and that those likes and those those comments that make us feel like we have worth, external validation.
	Oh, fuck me.
	Um, yeah, so... Opposite.
	He said it's the opposite.
	Why are we still listening to him?
	Why is this happening?
	What are we doing?
	I played this clip only to give you an idea of what the entire 80 minutes of conversation between these two looked like.
	Like, just exceptionally dumb and packed full of nothing.
	It's two straight white Christian men talking about nothing.
	Like, there's no overarching point to any of this, there's no impact on anyone's lives, no nothing!
	It's just talking to hear themselves talk at this stage, and that was most of the interview.
	That's something that I have been, you know, and I've been talking to Mike about actually like off mic or whatever, you know, like off the pod, talking about it a lot, thinking about it a lot.
	Like these dudes clearly never walked in this, I'm speaking from my experience, is they've never had to walk into a room Yeah.
	and fought to be taken seriously by their words and their actions.
	Literally never, they have no conception.
	Or if they do, they have forgotten.
	'Cause I don't wanna take anybody's experience away from anyone, but also,
	haven't lived a day as a woman on the planet.
	And...
	Or a minority of any stripe.
	That kind of idea that you have to earn your respect and the time that you have to speak.
	And if you're just meandering bullshit, you don't get to keep doing it.
	Your ability to be respected and listened to in that space will be revoked, usually permanently.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Man, it just seems like this luxurious chaise lounge and being fanned with a palm frond.
	Fed grapes.
	Yeah, feeling.
	To speak in the world.
	It's just, and when at least half of the people on the planet completely understand it, have to live a different daily reality that is so disconnected from this luxury cloud that these men exist on.
	It is so, and like, man, oh man.
	I just, oh boy.
	I completely agree.
	Like, the idea is supposed to be when you open your mouth to say something, especially when a camera's recording it, you say something.
	You say something of value that is worth listening to.
	One would hope.
	One would hope, and they don't seem to have that kind of issue.
	You know, to something that's being livestreamed to an audience.
	I mean, I was there for the livestream of this on Rumble, and there was what?
	15,000 to 18,000 people at any given moment watching this live, and yeah, it's not great.
	Was pretty entertaining, though, I will say.
	God, some of the takes coming through the Rumble chat.
	Oh, the chat.
	Oh boy.
	Oh boy.
	Entertaining is a word, huh?
	Entertaining, yeah, there was, um, yeah, there were a lot of, uh, kind of, well, basically Christofascism, just kind of spewing out, and then, but then what I really enjoyed was you would have these takes, and then occasionally, you know, some fucking COVID conspiracy nut or whatever, you would have these takes, and then there was someone, someone who had clearly copied and pasted the words multiple times over, I eat ass for Trump.
	And so, like, every fifth comment was just, like, a screed, a paragraph of, like, I eat ass for Trump, repeated.
	That's incredible.
	What a holy communion of souls, fellowshipping together.
	This is delightful, thank you.
	You don't get that in a church basement at a potluck.
	No, you do not!
	I enjoyed that.
	I enjoyed that.
	Between the fascism... I didn't ask for Trump!
	Okay, buddy.
	Alright.
	You know what?
	Fair enough.
	That's something I'm gonna let you do.
	You go ahead.
	Oh, dear.
	Anyway, yeah.
	The whole conversation between these two is pretty baffling and irritating, but the next clip does tell us something about both Russell and Pageau.
	Also, as a paradigm, they're both about objectification and materialization, i.e.
	the ineffable made objectified.
	When it remains ineffable, it remains in the territory of divinity, it's still sublimated.
	Once it's objectified, then you've just cast more territory, you've given yet more unto Caesar.
	Why do you think that more female-centric folktales have succeeded than, you know, you have to dig around for male fairy tales, you know, because there's customarily more pressure on females to socially conform because of the sort of biological challenges that females traditionally and more generally have.
	Why?
	Why?
	Why would that be?
	I mean I think that for sure that there's a for sure when when when girls hit puberty they have to deal with it like you know in a way more than guys like guys we have to deal with it too but there's a reality to transformation which is way more risky for girls than it is for men you know it's like you can get pregnant Yeah.
	Are we concerned about that?
	That's a big deal.
	That'll change everything in your life.
	Are we concerned about that?
	I think for sure the fact that a lot of these stories have to do with the transformation
	and kind of learning about this transformation are part of our, let's say the fairy tales
	that have risen to the surface in the modern world.
	Mmm.
	I mean, pregnancy, yes, but what are the main reasons that the transformation of puberty is, let's say, risky for women?
	And I have a daughter, so I can say with pretty acute awareness that the main danger, like when she's going through puberty and beyond, is not just pregnancy, it's men.
	Plain and simple.
	The risk of being assaulted, sexually or otherwise, and lord knows what else.
	Like, from the moment you're- Lauren knows what else!
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Lauren knows what else.
	It's not a fucking mystery.
	It's very obvious.
	From even before you start fucking developing, this is happening.
	And I know it's happening because all of the women in my life have told me that it's happening from the age of like fucking 10.
	If you're lucky.
	If you're lucky.
	And it's absolutely off the charts and almost invariably perpetrated by men.
	No, no, no.
	It's the patriarchy.
	You can be an Asian with a patriarchy regardless of your gender.
	So yeah, it's men, but women are just as, like, yeah, I get what you're saying, but I just- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	In terms of doing it, I mean, but yeah- Because I'm also thinking of Snow White.
	Like, there is, like, How this myth, not what they're saying, how it's actually useful as an examination of social pressure, is how cruel and terrible women are to each other in the name of patriarchy and in the name of getting picked and being special and exceptional at the cost of your comrades.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	That's like, ugh, huh.
	Yeah.
	That patriarchy is irrespective of gender.
	It does not matter what gender you are.
	You can be an agent of white male supremacy, you can be an agent of the patriarchy, and it doesn't matter what you, human being, are.
	Yep.
	Also, a study in 2016 from Barnett, Sligar, and Wang examining the influences of gender, religious affiliation, and religiosity on rape myth acceptance found that individuals identifying as Roman, Catholic, or Protestant endorsed higher levels of rape myth acceptance compared to their atheist or agnostic counterparts.
	The study, conducted with a sample of university students in the United States, also found that religiosity was positively associated with rape myth acceptance, even after controlling for conservative political ideology.
	There's been less research into those actually perpetrating the rapes, but, well, this study doesn't exactly paint a great picture now, does it?
	So yeah, kind of weird that these guys wouldn't bring that up as, oh yeah, the risks of being a young woman, perhaps.
	Because, you know, I don't know about you, but any time I think of a young female in a fairy tale, I'm like, oh, that girl is in danger.
	That's what's going to occur.
	Yeah, super safe position to be in.
	Yeah, exactly.
	She's got a lot of agency.
	Yeah.
	Yes, right.
	Like, their memory is so goldfish.
	Like, it's just two seconds.
	Because Disney and, like, you know, like, they're trying to put more female characters in their movies.
	Is that why they think this?
	Like, is it because of fucking Frozen or some shit?
	That's so stupid.
	And, like, It's so ahistorical, and I'm not trying to say stupid, I know that I don't want to come off as being ad hominem, but it's bonkers.
	Firstly, examples of fairy tales led by males, right?
	Jack and the Beanstalk, Aladdin, Peter Pan, Pinocchio, Pied Piper of Hamelin, which Russell, you wrote a fucking book about, Russell.
	You wrote a shit book about the Pied Piper of Hamelin.
	That's the first thing I thought of.
	But no, right?
	So Russell believes that male folklore isn't successful or as popular as female folklore.
	And to answer your question, he has an explanation.
	I reckon that the reason that male folklore isn't successful is it's helpful to have mediocre males.
	Mediocritized, unrealized, unawakened males.
	You don't want societies full of awakened, oppositional males.
	And with females there's the obvious functional requirement that all of those fairy tales that we've touched upon deal with.
	That's pretty cool.
	I didn't say it was a good explanation, but he's got one.
	Nor is it elucidating in any way.
	Nope.
	So, women are just too submissive and docile to be considered a threat, while society, or the globalists, or something, doesn't want there to be lots of awakened oppositional males, so they apparently highlight the female folklore in the name of ensuring that there are mediocre males in society.
	Seems like a real healthy perspective there.
	Yeah, we've pretty well documented Russell as a misogynist, so none of this is terribly shocking, but yeah, not great.
	I just also think that it's also interesting to hear, because yeah, it's the crab bucket.
	No one's good enough, ever, And so, Russell, do you think you're not a mediocre male?
	The implication is you think you are a super fantastic male, and that mediocrity needs to get with the program.
	Oh, we know he thinks that.
	The ego on this man.
	The fucking, the saviour complex.
	All of it.
	I think it's Jesus.
	It's crazy to hear these dudes just... Truly, what they are saying, they've been telling each other stories.
	This is like a nesting doll of little stories they're telling each other around the campfire that have no basis In reality, whatsoever, and listener, I want you to think about a situation where you knew you walked into a room and had to have a conversation and you had to make sure all, and this is not exclusive to women, this is not exclusive to minorities, but it certainly is more prevalent, but I'm saying everyone has been in this situation and I want you to relate to it in your own mind where you are ready to, you have to prepare yourself to go into this room
	And have a conversation with someone that you know is going to pick you apart every which way but loose.
	Like, and you have to make sure that you are on point and then you have your points ready and then you have all your arguments ready well ahead of time just to be able to be, just to have a seat at the table to be able to be understood and to communicate, usually with someone that has a whole lot of control over your life or even an aspect of it.
	This is embarrassing to watch, and it's so lazy and spoiled.
	These are lazy, spoiled boys.
	And it's amazing.
	It's amazing to see.
	Because, like, I was around, like, Jordan Peterson a little bit before, but even, like, Neil Oliver.
	I'm like, the luxury these dudes I'm picturing a Lazy Boy recliner that also is motorized.
	That's a fun thing that they used to put on After Mythbusters in the 90s.
	It was a cute thing to put on TV.
	Just the leisure.
	You know how everyone gets around in WALL-E?
	That's exactly what I was... Yeah, yeah, yeah!
	How the humans are surviving.
	Your little floating pod.
	You're just in this little floating pod that you feel entitled to say just whatever little silly story you want to make up.
	You can contradict yourself in your own sentence over and over and no one has ever been there, or at least you don't remember, so it no longer affects your experience, that someone was ready to jump down your throat the second that you even suggested Like a contradiction of any kind, perceived or real.
	It's so obvious when I'm listening to them prattle on about nothing and just making shit up.
	They're making little toys for each other to play with.
	Pretty much.
	And it's, oh man, the life of Riley.
	Oh yeah, these guys... I'd be jealous if it wasn't so humiliating to live that way.
	These guys who very much consider themselves to not be mediocre men, they are exceptional men.
	Yeah, they just love to sit around and chat.
	Also, that's the first time in a while I've heard anyone use the expression, every which way but loose, and I'm gonna have to rewatch that movie now, so thank you for that.
	You ever seen that movie?
	No, it's Clint Eastwood and an orangutan going around the... Oh, it's great.
	It's great.
	I mean, I will say, I don't know how well it's aged.
	It was in the 70s, to be fair.
	I'm gonna guess that.
	But yeah, it's... Not great.
	Clint Eastwood as a trucker slash bare knuckle fighter, and his best friend is an orangutan called Clyde.
	Yeah, and there was a country song.
	Okay.
	What are we doing now?
	I don't know.
	I'm just, I've got, I got distracted.
	I got distracted with with so many memories.
	Are you trying to illustrate my point in real time?
	Is that what's happening?
	Because I feel like I had to be very pointed and focused.
	And we're talking about a Gorilla Clint Eastwood trucker movie?
	Maybe let's tighten it up here!
	Yeah, maybe, maybe.
	Alright, so I mentioned Bran's terrible book about the Pied Piper, right?
	And he does eventually bring it up himself along this conversation.
	I hope so!
	I would hope so.
	It's so obvious!
	And again, this is the one that was savagely reviewed, and everyone fucking hated this children's book that Brand wrote, which is still hilarious to me.
	But Paggio takes it to an interesting place.
	You want anything on the pipe?
	I once wrote a version of that which I should have put more effort into.
	I got the ambiguity of the figure pretty, pretty good.
	But I never truly understood the nature of the bargain.
	You know, he goes to the town, he's got some weird Christianity in it, there's that lame child, there's a lame child that is spared the purge.
	He first of all clears the town of rats, then the town knock him on the rat deal, like they don't pay the Pied Piper, and then the Pied Piper comes back and he takes all the children.
	And I think that like it ends on that.
	It ends on that.
	It's a pretty horrible story.
	It's so brutal.
	It's so brutal.
	I mean, You could say that it has to do exactly with the deal, right?
	It has to do with the problem of the deal.
	How can I say this?
	And so the town makes a deal with a stranger.
	That's the best way to understand it.
	Someone who's not part of their unity.
	Plus he's not good or bad, huh?
	He's not good or bad.
	He's black and white.
	He's ambiguous.
	That's what a stranger is.
	A stranger is ambiguous.
	Now, the problem is that if you, once you include something in a town or something that's not part of it, and then you give it a responsibility and power, you have to be aware of that, right?
	You have to pay the piper or else You know, or else that influence will take over.
	It's the best way to understand that.
	Okay, so someone who's not part of the town's unity, a stranger from somewhere else comes in, and including a stranger or someone who isn't part of the town into a town and giving the responsibility and power means that they'll eventually take over.
	Does any of this feel familiar to you?
	I think I can hear a whistling sound.
	Is that just me?
	No?
	No?
	Just me?
	Monorail?
	But really, this is antithetical to what the Bible says.
	If this guy is a Bible guy, then caring for and valuing the connections of people, especially strangers, in the New Testament specifically, it's You have to love your neighbor as yourself, and your neighbor can be... I mean, it's not just that.
	Your neighbor means a lot of things, not just the person next door.
	This is it.
	His concept of things means that this person is not his neighbor.
	This person is... So he's taking neighbor literally, is what you're saying.
	Exactly.
	This person is from somewhere else.
	This person is an immigrant, maybe, if you will.
	That's not in the book.
	No, no, it's not, no.
	But it's definitely in Pajot's head.
	He does not like immigrants, I'm gonna go with.
	They're a danger and they will take over if you give them responsibility and power.
	And this is not a narrative I'm in love with.
	Nor is Christianity.
	And even if it's just lip service, the lip service says the opposite thing.
	Yeah, I don't feel like Jesus would be on board with this conversation, let's put it that way.
	Anyway, he's got a little bit more to say on the subject, and this might get you riled up again, I think.
	think that influence will kind of so so you know a good example would be think
	of the Roman Empire right The Roman Empire tries to need soldiers.
	So they're like, let's just get these barbarians and bring the barbarians in and they'll fight for us.
	But their allegiance is not to the Roman Empire.
	So if you don't care for them in the right way, They're just going to take you over, obviously.
	At some point.
	Because they don't care about your goal.
	They want to get paid.
	If you pay them, if you give them what they ask for, then they'll remain ambiguous and they will play the role that they're playing.
	But if you don't Manage that relationship properly, then at some point they'll take your kids.
	These are dark stories, like really about how reality works in ways that a lot of red pill realities, let's say.
	No, Russell likes it when you take kids because they're annoying.
	Remember the Ukrainian kids?
	Oh man, parenting stuff.
	Maybe you want to get them taken from you.
	That's Russell's thing.
	Okay, I'm sorry.
	I had to just focus on that last sip of that thing.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	What?
	That's a lot, huh?
	I'm not even mad at this person.
	I'm mad at the education system.
	Society has done this guy dirty by teaching this notion in any capacity.
	I feel like all of this could have definitely happened post him leaving the education system.
	Yeah, that's not what happened in the Roman Empire, for one thing.
	I think he's trying to talk about the Gauls here?
	I think that's what he's trying to- Visigoths.
	Yeah, right, I think that's- Not the Gauls, the Visigoths.
	I mean, probably, because there was systems and contracts and mercenaries, that's all.
	Say mercenaries!
	Don't say Rome!
	Because, like, that's not a real... It's... Ah, boy!
	Well, yeah, when he says bring the barbarians in, I don't know.
	And, yeah, the Roman Empire, you know, they were famously able to keep such a large empire due to kind of managing all these relationships with different cultures, right?
	Exactly.
	That was a thing that they did.
	And it was military, but also, like, diplomatic and connecting, right?
	Listen, if we want to talk about Visigoths, Again, don't threaten me with a good time.
	Off-brand, off-brand.
	I'll never be able to talk about turnips if these things keep coming up in my little history corners.
	It's true.
	We do need a turnip episode.
	I know.
	Yeah, yeah, so Pajo is using this bullshit story to say that immigrants, if left unchecked, are gonna take over and steal your children!
	Merry Christmas, everyone.
	Fuck me.
	I just- The child stealers were Roman, dog.
	Jesus.
	Full stop.
	That was part of military engagement that was understood across the board by everyone involved, is that if you lost, Slaves were taken back to Rome, or wherever.
	That was part of the spoils of war, was human labor.
	And also, guess who's gonna build all your shit?
	So, if you don't like immigrants so much, you're gonna have to start cleaning your own streets, and maintaining your own shit, and building your own houses, because, oh man.
	Dude, this is so bonkers to hear out of a person's mouth that is taken seriously.
	That's just like... Yeah, yeah, I've got to admit, I didn't expect the conversation to go quite this direction.
	Well, and I hope I'm not being obtuse, you know, like, for listeners.
	I hope I'm not being obtuse and, like, I can't sit here, and also we don't have the time, the bandwidth, to sit here and pick apart the historical argument.
	Again, I will take the opportunity, if given, in a little adjacent little corner that I get to have for myself.
	I hope I'm not speaking out of turn without explaining it, but it's complicated to debunk something like that.
	We're already debunking a thing!
	LIAM Yeah, exactly, exactly.
	I think it's fair to be able to just be like, okay, this is bullshit and here's a couple of examples, why?
	Because the present day is kind of more of the concern.
	His kind of ahistoric stories are one thing, but the way it's affecting the current kind of narratives are more of an immediate issue.
	And, yeah, maybe we'll need a fucking history roundup at some point if we keep getting idiots like this.
	But, yeah.
	Hello, yeah!
	Ah, boy.
	So next, Pajot turns his fear-mongering to technological advances, and I will say on this next point, I don't entirely disagree with him.
	The technology question and the phone question and all of these are actually a good example of the Pied Piper story.
	If you want to understand the Pied Piper story, it's a great way to understand it, which is that we create powerful technologies that are added to us.
	Technology is supplement.
	From our nature, it's something that you add to yourself.
	That's what the Pied Piper is, right?
	A stranger comes in, we add his power to ours, and we do it to get rid of the rat.
	So we say something like, well, Neuralink is great because it'll help people walk.
	I mean, don't you want people to walk, Russell?
	Don't you want people who can't walk to walk?
	You like people in wheelchair?
	You get off on that?
	That's right.
	And so, but then if you're not attentive to it in the proper manner, right, then, you know, obviously, then it'll rule over you and take your children.
	Neuralink is the scariest technology to ever come about on the horizon of human experience.
	And like you said, it's being promoted.
	A lot of these technologies are promoted with the desire to help get rid of the rats.
	But ultimately, if we're not careful, they'll take our children.
	And that's what happened with cell phones, right?
	It's like now our kids are completely taken up by TikTok.
	They're hypnotized, you know, by the music.
	OK, Grandpa.
	Jesus Christ.
	Yeah.
	Again, real youth pasta vibes coming out there.
	Just all the kids and their music and the TikTok.
	Oh, dear.
	Yeah.
	So everything's going to fucking take your kids at this point.
	Uh, Neuralink... Stretch!
	Well, he knows Take Your Kids is at the end, so he just has to keep getting there.
	He's gotta keep going.
	Yeah, Neuralink, I will say, is pretty scary, or at least the potential implications of it.
	For those not in the know, Neuralink is one of Elon Musk's companies, which already is a red flag to me, And their primary goal is to create devices that can help humans merge with artificial intelligence and potentially address neurological diseases like Alzheimer's, dementia, and spinal cord injuries as well.
	They're working on developing a small implantable device that can interface directly with the human brain aiming to facilitate communication between the brain and computers or restore motor function in individuals with neurological disorders and that kind of thing as well.
	Wonderful intentions, but the concept of putting programmable shit in my brain is pretty scary to me, particularly if it's in the hands of Elon Musk.
	It's not working.
	It doesn't work.
	Not yet.
	Honestly, I'd be more afraid if I didn't know that Elon Musk would put a man in a robot suit as a proof of concept.
	That's very true.
	And it's not even close to working.
	Honestly, Neuralink, I'm not willing to engage with the implications of the reality as Neuralink.
	I don't know about other companies that are actually developing any kind of technology that might actually work someday.
	I'm not willing to engage, my concern is the dangers to test subjects in the short term.
	That's my concern with Neuralink, because they're just medically torturing animals and potentially a person, and that's a horror to me.
	I have a serious problem with that.
	It's very Theranos.
	She's giving Theranos.
	It's not gonna work.
	So, listen, I'll be afraid of it when that bridge comes to it, and I will assume it's similar to the danger that Elon Musk will be colonizing Mars with rich people.
	I say go ahead.
	Do your damnedest.
	Oh, no, I'm fine.
	Fly yourself up there right now and see how it goes.
	I'm fine with him doing that.
	No, no, no.
	That's fine.
	Go for it, Elon Musk.
	Well, they're both impossible prospects that are in no way reasonable to attain in his lifetime.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Call me when I should actually be concerned, because no, as it stands, not possible either front.
	Of course we need to try, if you want to admit stuff, because yeah, Neuralink would be incredible!
	It would be incredible For people that have mobility, all the conditions that you just mentioned, it would be massive.
	It would be so great.
	Yeah, it would be revolutionary, and I would be extremely excited.
	It's not happening as it stands.
	It just isn't.
	No, it's not.
	It's not.
	It's not.
	But yeah, there is a lot of talk about it still at the moment.
	It's embarrassing to hear adults take it seriously.
	Yeah, Peugeot's not on board.
	So all of this said, Russell and Pajot are about to advocate for just, let's just never call the Pied Piper in at all.
	Because in a sense, yeah, say Jonathan in it, safety and convenience, like think how many measures are into all measures now, all globalist centralizing measures, safety or convenience are always the lubricant that is deployed to gain entry.
	And I feel like... Maybe sometimes we have to do with a few rats.
	That's right.
	Just leave them there.
	Leave the rats.
	A few rats are fine.
	Tidy up.
	Tidy up your food.
	Don't leave shit everywhere.
	Be hygienic.
	Or as our mutual friend would say, clean your goddamn room, man.
	Tidy your room.
	Don't leave scraps all over the floor.
	Otherwise, those Pied Piper types, they'll benefit.
	That's right, exactly.
	That's actually not a bad Jordan Peterson impression.
	Given that it's an anti-immigration sentiment, it does sound exactly like something he would say.
	So yeah, they're both harping on the idea that, hey, never call strangers in from outside to fix a thing, because they're strangers!
	Live with the rats!
	It's fine!
	Clean your room!
	Okay.
	We know how I feel about living with rats on this podcast.
	Yes, yes I do.
	Zero tolerance.
	But lots of having to deal with it, unfortunately.
	It's not great.
	Well, they're using the idea to peddle in some xenophobic bullshit, but it does fit perfectly with Russell's conception of how we should all live in tiny ethnostates, so there we go, I suppose.
	Yeah, as long as your tiny ethnostate doesn't have a rat problem.
	He thinks you can have a lot of control over a rat infestation, which is adorable.
	As a person who lives in Chicago, that's cute to hear someone say.
	That's precious.
	It's a precious idea.
	I think he thinks that you can have a lot of control over a lot of things that you can't.
	That's where he's at.
	Jesus Christ.
	Okay.
	Live with the rats, everybody!
	So, Pazzo, thankfully, fucks off.
	But I do have one more clip, and it's Russell talking about what's to come in his content over the Christmas period.
	Jonathan, thank you so much for that informative, enlightening, exciting conversation.
	I hope we get to speak with Jonathan again soon.
	Let me know what you thought of that conversation in the chat.
	Merry Christmas, everyone, coming up over the festive period.
	We've got loads of content.
	We've got a series called Conspiracy Theory to Conspiracy Fact.
	We're going to be talking about the number of times over the past year we've moved from being condemned and criticised, vilified, I'm taking this off, as lunatics, because I was about to say, you know, I do look like the colours, they clash.
	To understanding that, empirically, the claims that were made were legitimate.
	Whether that's Nord Stream Pipeline, the origins of the Ukraine war, certain ideas around January the 6th, and of course, the mother of all conspiracy theories become conspiracy facts, the coronavirus pandemic period.
	That's coming up at the end of December.
	Into January we've got Chris Hedges talking about Israel-Palestine, we've got Kali Means on Big Food.
	You'll come out of that conversation A lot better educated.
	Similarly with Vandana Shiva explaining how big agriculture plans to take over the world's food supplies and monopolise our ability to eat.
	Then, on the 8th of January, we've got Greg Gutfeld coming on the show to talk about Tucker Carlson and how media has changed.
	Thank you so much for supporting us this year.
	We will see you for the Conspiracy Theory Specials in a couple of days.
	Remember, become an Awakened Wonder, press the red button right now, and join us to talk about how we can build physical real communities together, live events, and you get the opportunity to be with our live guests.
	Thank you those of us that have been with us for a year and supported us and welcome our new members like HootYouShopper, WGreddy's, Nick Diesel, NickTrapasso1 and Tshar.
	Join us in a few days, not for more of the same, but for more of the different.
	Until then, if you can, stay free and Merry Christmas!
	Okay.
	Merry Christmas!
	Alright, so apparently we're about to get an accounting of conspiracy theory to conspiracy fact!
	And I'm 99% sure we've already debunked all of the things he's gonna bring up.
	We might cover it, we might not, depending on what his actual content looks like.
	But my bet is it's essentially going to be an edited together clip show split into parts one on the 26th and part two on the 28th.
	And I really hate clip shows.
	It's one of my least favorite sitcom tropes.
	So we'll see.
	We'll see.
	Yeah.
	I do like when the Golden Girls did it.
	But yeah, I haven't seen that one.
	The jury is a case by case basis.
	Jury's out.
	It's case by case.
	Fair.
	Okay.
	There was an art to it that has since gone the way of the dodo, but you know, whenever you had to make 24 episodes a season and like, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I think, um, I think Community did one that was kind of, you know, amateur and self-referent.
	I think that was a fun one, I think.
	But that was like, it was just presented as a clip show style.
	Yeah, that was kind of mocking the concept in a way.
	It wasn't actually a clip show.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Exactly.
	Very funny.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So yeah, we'll also have Chris Hedges talking about Israel.
	Fucking great.
	Callie Means and Vandana Shiva, as predicted, talking about food, almost as if on fucking cue with our conversation last week.
	So we might need to have a look at that.
	And yeah, Greg Gutfeld is coming on.
	So here's how melted my brain has become.
	I heard that and I was like, oh, that's funny.
	Let's do it.
	Like, that would be hilarious.
	Oh, Jesus.
	Gutfeld, hey!
	Yeah, I'm sorry, I take in too much content on this stuff, to the point where I'm like, I've become cooked as well, mentally.
	Oh, boy.
	Yeah, not like excited, because I like Greg Gutfeld, I don't want anyone to misapprehend what I'm saying.
	Yeah, no, no, I assumed that was not the case.
	Like, oh!
	Oh, that sounds like fun!
	That's a cherry on a sundae!
	If someone you actually liked came on the show, it would be more of a, oh no!
	It would be that moment.
	Yeah, it wouldn't be me rubbing my hands together like, yeah, sounds dumb, let's do it!
	Let's take a look at this idiot.
	It's very a let's see who wants to jump off the roof, because it'll work this time.
	That's the kind of fun.
	It's backyard wrestling fun.
	No one's going to come out okay, but it seems like a hoot.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Well, what a fucking murderous row of bullshit artists, I can't wait.
	I can't fucking wait.
	Well, and so, listeners, anybody that isn't watching, Russell put on a Santa hat for like a second, because the bone I have to pick with this theme- His Christmas special.
	It's not very festive.
	I wrote on this fucking piece of paper, decidedly unfestive.
	I have a problem.
	I annoyingly shoehorned festivity into the pre-Christmas episode of ours, Hell or High Water, goddammit.
	And he can't even keep the hat on?
	Wear a fucking Santa hat.
	It's fun.
	It's just fun!
	You're Russell Brand!
	You're not Dick Cheney!
	Have a little bit of fun!
	Spice it up!
	Wear a fucking Santa hat!
	He's too fucking self-conscious.
	That's what happened in that moment, and we saw it in real time!
	That's embarrassing.
	He could see himself in the monitor, didn't like the look, was like, I'm taking this off!
	I'm gonna shake my underarm just to drive the point home.
	I still have not died.
	I'm safe.
	I'm fine.
	Come on, man.
	We call that part of the arm that jiggles bingo wings.
	Oh yeah, yeah, the bingo wings.
	Absolutely.
	I'm bingoing it up because you know what?
	We're grown.
	We're all grown adults.
	Calm down.
	Okay, this guy.
	Good lord.
	I'm curious about his art stuff.
	That was the Christmas special.
	Yeah, by all means do.
	Yeah, his art seemed okay, as far as I could tell.
	I didn't find anything troubling.
	Let's put it that way.
	Yeah, but as for him as a person, oh boy!
	Well, I will say, and this is, again, we have to find the light where we can in these scenarios, and by these scenarios I mean watching Russell's show.
	And I'm sorry, listeners, you probably can hear it, but it really adds to the surround sound,
	to watch a person experience what Russell is saying and struggling to figure out how to answer.
	answer.
	And he was way more like giggly about it than most of the hosts had been, which honestly was quite refreshing and delightful to see him like, ah, this is a spicy one.
	Oh, it's a spicy meatball.
	What am I going to say here?
	Yeah, there's a person who wears every feeling they've ever had directly on their on their face.
	It was more charming than most.
	The bar is low, obviously, but like it was more charming than most to see him just be like, you can tell that by the number of pauses in the audio just him.
	You can hear it, but you can see the struggle on the face.
	Yeah, he's visibly surprised that he's being asked a lot of these questions, like, oh fuck, I didn't expect this to, okay.
	Yeah, and also like, very like, what are you saying?
	What do I say to this?
	Oh man, like just searching and struggling, but that also is like being put on the spot.
	I might know a thing or two at this point with a microphone in front of you and like trying to figure stuff out.
	What I do to handle that kind of like being unsure of what you say in the moment is to acknowledge that and hedge it.
	You know, like, hey, maybe I'm off base.
	Maybe, you know, and not as an excuse, but acknowledging the lack of your... To just be like, hey, I'm going to shoot from the hip a little bit here.
	Just, you know, give me some... And also understanding that this is shot from the hip.
	You know, that's my role personally.
	His role was like... Granted, Russell was also shooting from the hip, which isn't... Because I can't imagine he wants to prepare at all, because that is hard.
	But yeah, it's work.
	There is something to be said.
	A little like Wipeout or Ninja Warrior, seeing all different – Wipeout.
	There we go.
	I'm going to go with the television show with the obstacle course, Wipeout.
	All different walks of life and all kinds of people are dropped into this challenging situation.
	And the variety with which they have to navigate it, their problem solving in the moment, can be wildly entertaining.
	And I had that moment today.
	It's like, how far do you get through the punch wall?
	Because it seems impossible, but sometimes they get there.
	It's true.
	You never know.
	Sometimes with unorthodox tactics.
	Exactly.
	It's always surprising.
	For a man who is Eastern Orthodox, that is kind of funny.
	I mean, where there's a will, there's a way, I guess.
	And you know, again, you gotta take, you gotta get it where you can, and that definitely was like, we've been doing this for, you know, like, a while now, and so, I mean, and I know that, you know, like, So my view has colored quite a bit from whenever we started and there, you know, and then you, we talked about it earlier.
	It's like, you get to the point where you're like, you hear things that are outrageous.
	And after a while we kind of have to be a nerd to it to be able to talk about it.
	And this is one of those things where like, now I've seen enough of these guys and how they behave and how they handle.
	Cause like Russell is not a generous scene partner No.
	No.
	No, he is not.
	He is like, we are going to grind this to a halt, I am going to make this impossible, and then you're just gonna have to fucking deal with it.
	This is Stay Free with Russell Brand.
	I am Russell Brand, and this is with me.
	So, let's talk about me.
	I stay free.
	Yeah, I stay free.
	You gotta figure it the fuck out.
	Good luck.
	Yeah, how we stay free on this show.
	I mean... I stay free, you do what I fucking tell you.
	As to refer back to Wipeout, those big bouncy balls, they are presented in an obstacle course as though you are supposed to get to the end.
	As though it's possible.
	And it's not!
	It's just not, like, I think, I've never seen it.
	Honestly, I could Google the four times humans have navigated those big bouncy balls that you immediately bounce off of.
	I'm positive it has happened, but it is...
	Not supposed to.
	It is a rigged carnival game.
	It's designed to be nigh impossible, yes.
	And it's adorable and we love it and I'm here for it.
	Takeshi's Castle is very much the same.
	It is presented as an obstacle course when truly you are being set up to Fail.
	For other people's entertainment.
	Right!
	So seeing the lack of generosity and the lack of consideration and compassion from both sides, and seeing those two immovable objects kind of like running into each other.
	It's the unstoppable force.
	Yes, exactly.
	But still trying to like, Vibe.
	Sell a vibe.
	Even as a behavior modeling thing, don't talk to people like this.
	Don't treat people this way.
	It's not nice.
	It's not generous.
	It's not the way that you talk to people.
	It's not fun.
	No, it's miserable.
	Definitely not fun.
	Clearly miserable!
	And so, like, there is a degree of, like, and especially, like, what we do know about YouTube and things like it, and I'm not being, you know, I'm not being this alarmist about the TikToks and the kids.
	Legitimately, there's a younger audience that is influenced, and we know this because of, like, all these studies and research, and to, like, 13-year-old boys who are, like, in love with Andrew Tate and think that everything you say is It says is gold is like there is an influence like there is an influence that you can have on the people and I take it seriously even in my teeny little way like I want to model behavior that I think is appropriate in a way that speaks to my values in my character.
	I don't want to be selfish and rude and set people up to fail.
	And if I do, if I am, I want to know about it.
	And I don't think they give a single solitary shit.
	It is honestly fascinating to watch.
	Yeah.
	How they fight each other so hard while making an episode of a thing.
	Like, it's just, it's honestly impressive to watch on this timeline that, you know, that I've kind of, you know, like the experience that we've kind of put together over this amount of time.
	I'm watching this stuff kind of build, watching the information build and the input kind of like build on itself as far as how these things shake out.
	I just, I, It is that kind of thing where you almost have to not know Russell's content, I think for a lot of potential guests.
	Even if I was on Russell's side, and I'm sure it depends on the guest.
	I don't know how willing, if I knew that I was going to get a five minute question and the only thing I'd have is a chuckle at the impossibility of an answer, I don't know how willing I would be to be on the show.
	Yeah, I wouldn't be thrilled about it.
	If I was a potential interviewee, you know, I mean, you know, big audience, but also, God.
	It seems like an exhausting thing to have to do, as the guest, that's for sure.
	ALICE It's exhausting to listen to.
	LIAM Yes, yes it is.
	And, yeah, to your point, we've been doing this, what, six months now, I think, this show?
	ALICE Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	LIAM Yeah, even so far, it's been a journey.
	It's been a journey already!
	Jesus, if you think back to Day Dark, you know, Day One, that was... whoo!
	That was, you know, dealing with fucking 9-11 conspiracies, and, you know, Gareth Roy was still on the show, and yeah, there was a... The whole thing, there's been such a journey already, and I feel like there is such a journey yet to come.
	And it's all gone in surprising ways that I wasn't expecting in many cases.
	I could not have estimated this whole experience.
	Yeah.
	Not a fucking clue, man.
	Me neither.
	And we, yeah, the next show after this one is gonna be in the new year, and we shall experience, you know, stay free 2024 kind of existence, and that's gonna be... On a superficial level, by the way, I am very perturbed that this is a decidedly un-Christmassy episode.
	What false fucking advertising.
	How absurd.
	I know, right?
	I know.
	It left me kind of bummed that we didn't get Tucker, because I'm like, at least Tucker will have had the kind of entertainment kind of nous to understand that we should acknowledge Christmas.
	Ah, chop!
	Not even chop!
	Psa!
	Plural.
	Ah, chop!
	At least that's a single shot!
	To say fucking Merry Christmas or some shit!
	Yeah, to not just be like, oh I heard this is your Christmas episode!
	Revisit the tired culture war stuff about Happy Holidays!
	Sure, sure!
	Something!
	Reason for the season, any of that!
	There's so much meat on the bone there!
	Peugeot, I heard this was your Christmas episode.
	That's the most we get from him.
	Atrocious.
	What the fuck?
	I hear Christmas special, and I'm like, Bing and Bowie at a piano friend.
	Bring it, yeah.
	Absolutely.
	Why would I watch this?
	I have YouTube.
	Like, come on.
	Like, oh man.
	Yeah, right?
	Like, I just, mm-mm, mm-mm.
	Yeah.
	You know, try a little drummer.
	Take a stab at Little Drummer Boy.
	What's worse gonna happen?
	Sure, sure.
	The alternative is this?
	Yikes.
	Yeah.
	And no one's expecting it to be good anyway, so Russell, you might as well sit in front of a piano.
	Yeah, good lord.
	I mean, that's so, as I would say, you know, a little more entertainment than I usually get, which is a little fun.
	But overall, what a whiff on a Christmas thing.
	Have a little treat!
	No, instead we get a fucking talk about Christian iconography and that kind of milieu.
	But we don't!
	Not really, no.
	That had nothing to do with Christian iconography in art, which is that, I mean, that's part of it is like, I bet that guy expected to say something about his work.
	I don't know if he did.
	I don't know if he did, to be honest.
	Why else would he be on the show?
	Because most of his own online content doesn't really go into that.
	It doesn't go into the art stuff.
	He doesn't really talk about it.
	He does it, but he doesn't really talk about the art stuff a lot of the time, which, yeah, you'd think, right?
	How do you do it without talking?
	Wait.
	What?
	Well, yeah, so his online content is talking about Christianity and stuff, but he doesn't really kind of delve into art specifically, or that kind of thing.
	Like, he'll bring up symbols and that kind of thing, but not, yeah.
	But if it's like this, no he's not.
	Well, there's that.
	There's that, he's also bad at this.
	He's saying his campfire tales, so he does it!
	Again, he is regularly featured with Jordan Peterson, there are videos with millions of views where Jordan Peterson sat there saying transphobic shit, and this guy's next to him just going, It's just meander boys.
	Just meander boys with no consequences and not a care in the world.
	All right.
	Paggio was one of the speakers at ARC in London.
	He was at the ARC conference, he was one of the speakers there.
	And apparently, I actually watched his talk, just out of curiosity, and it's the only one that I've watched from that conference, but his telling of it says that it was a very religious event, and that there were lots and lots of Christians there.
	It's not a Christian event, but there are also lots of Christians here, and we should not be scared to mention that.
	We should talk about God, and that was a good chunk of his chat.
	But we're in the atheist era.
	Oh no, post-atheist now.
	It's post-atheism, right?
	How could he assume that?
	If we're in a post-atheist world.
	We can be rebellious together as Christians.
	Seems inconsistent.
	I think that's the theme of this show.
	All right.
	If you want to support us and what we do, go to patreon.com slash onbrand.
	And yeah, come and join us.
	Become an Awakening Wanderer, etc.
	in the year of our Lord, 2024.
	That'd be grand.
	If you want to get in touch, drop us an email.
	It's theonbrandparts at gmail.com.
	Come say hi.
	We've got a Facebook group.
	It's On Brand Awakening Wanderers.
	Come and join.
	Lovely people having a conversation there.
	There's also a Reddit, a subreddit, if you're on Reddit.
	It's onbrand underscore pod.
	Some lovely human beings there.
	Socials, we should be the onbrand pod at most things, except for X slash Twitter, and you know, that's a whole dumpster fire anyway, so we'll forgive you if you don't find us, because, oh boy!
	And personal socials, I'm at alworthofficial and Lauren is at me.by.lauren.b.
	Yeah, this is our last show of the year.
	We'll see you all in 2024.
	We love you very much.
	No plugs this week, you know where to find me, and also I made all this stuff, it's probably all sold, so I'll be back.
	We'll be back next week with the regular old making stuff and selling stuff and doing art things.
	Legit, I'm tapped this week.
	No doubt.
	Need a break.
	Well, just like, I made it all is.
	It's all gone.
	Until next week.
	Thankfully, it's gone.
	Until next week.
	That is fair, and we'll have a little breaky, and we will Come back to you with yeah, one of the one of the idiots that Russell mentioned probably or possibly this whole conspiracy theory to fact thing.
	Oh boy.
	It's gonna be bollocks.
	It's gonna be bollocks.
	All right.
	We love you very much.
	Thank you all for listening to us and sticking with us and we'll see you in the new year!
	Take care.
	Bye!

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