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Nov. 16, 2023 - On Brand

03:18:03

OB #29 - Why Everything Is Terrible Now: A Grifter Income Investigation

At patron Juanjalapena's request, we take a deep dive into the history and groundwork of why grifters are allowed to prosper these days, before examining a few of our own favourite grifters. Support us on Patreon! - patreon.com/onbrand Buy a Lauren-made On Brand magnet! - seriouslyhowcoolarethese

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	This is On Brand, a podcast where we discuss the ideas and antics of one Russell Brand.
	I'm Al Worth, and each week I go through an episode of Brand Show with my co-host Lauren B. Hi, that's me, Lauren B. And I normally don't know much about the episode, but I might today.
	There'll still be some bad things.
	There'll still be some bad things.
	Right.
	So what do we do?
	We do the good thing before the bad thing is what we do.
	So Lauren, what is your good thing before the bad thing?
	Oh, this is a week.
	Well, my good thing is actually my first history corner with last week's Off Brand.
	Last week's asterisk, it didn't get out till Sunday, but I got there in the end.
	It was last week, it's fine.
	Yeah, so we've been navigating some life adjustments here at the Off Brand Warehouse.
	Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
	And so the after show format has required some adjustments time-wise.
	I set out to cover a subject loosely in response to Russell and JPD, who didn't actually talk about enough real things to be able to flesh out.
	Hilariously.
	So then I went in a series of concentric rabbit holes, like you do, and ended up with kind of an overview of a theme, specifically addressing our collective misconceptions of tribality.
	I don't think that's a word.
	I made that up.
	Tribalism.
	Tribalism.
	Yeah.
	Well, it's like the quality of being.
	It's like a... Yeah, I guess it's tribalism.
	Fine.
	But either way, the essence of this kind of notion that Russell puts forth, that I'm wildly offended by, that you can set your watch to it, I'm gonna be mad every time he implies it, How insulated humans past were.
	And I got, you know, I kind of went through some reasons why those misconceptions are proliferated and solidified in the public consciousness.
	And there's some case study from ancient history and exploring and just kind of like doing an overview of tools that I've developed to help me understand history and context.
	So it's kind of it's it's more of an overview.
	Oops, sorry, part one of two of an actual story.
	So the narrative is coming in part two, that's very interesting and surprising that I found.
	And it was, I mean, you know, again, we're making adjustments.
	So it was like a little time crunchy, as the little A little straceful, but really fun.
	And also it's cool to just expand our toolbox a little bit on what we can do.
	And it was also super fun to talk about history stuff.
	And I didn't garth it.
	I didn't just sit there and stare at the screen.
	And shake like a chihuahua.
	Chihuahua in an alley in the winter.
	It is incidentally one of my favorite scenes from Wayne's World.
	Yeah, it's fantastic.
	You see that scene in Scanners where the dude's head blows up and I didn't.
	I didn't even explode.
	No, you nailed it.
	It was great.
	I did Kronenberg.
	It was really great.
	It was a really weird experience, like having to catch up on my own show, but it was really cool, and it was really interesting and really well done, and you should be proud of that, and I'm looking forward to part two.
	Well, it's nice.
	Yeah, it's fun.
	Everyone check it out and go and enjoy it, because it's awesome.
	Well, thanks.
	You have to like it, though.
	You're my mom, you have to like it.
	No, I don't.
	The people closest to me would tell me if it stunk.
	I would be like, not for me!
	Good try!
	Do you have fun out there?
	Good effort, champ.
	I'll take next week.
	Right.
	So yeah, so that, I mean, it's just nice to also, you know, like, to be able to bank some stuff instead of having to do everything immediately.
	You know, it's just, it's more options, and yeah.
	Someday I'll have time to find out if y'all like it or not in the comments, I promise.
	I'd love to hear from you.
	That'd be good.
	If you like it, go to the comments on Patreon and be like, Yeah, this is awesome!
	If you don't like it, stay quiet and stay away.
	Thank you very much.
	We're all about the positivity.
	Yeah.
	We're not.
	Very cool stuff.
	That's a lie.
	No, no, I know.
	We're bummertown USA.
	Yeah.
	I like positivity about us, though.
	That's my preference.
	God, the YouTube comments.
	Let's emphasize!
	Hi, YouTube comments.
	You're a shitshow every single week.
	We love ya.
	I'd say A for effort, though.
	Goddamn.
	I need to stop putting his name in the titles of things.
	Jesus wept.
	No you don't.
	So what's your good thing?
	Holy shit.
	What's your good thing?
	I'm distracted.
	I'm distracted.
	No, no, no.
	It's okay.
	This week, my good thing this week is cheese.
	That could be my good thing every week.
	I'm here for it.
	I know, and I'm very sorry to all our vegan listeners.
	I know we have a good number of you who I'm sure miss cheese, and my heart goes out to you.
	I've been there, was vegan for a while, it was rough.
	The subs are getting better though!
	It's true, it's true.
	They are improving drastically, and the more you pay for them, the better they are.
	Where I lived in southwest London, for a brief period, there was a vegan cheese shop that was around there.
	That was all they did in southwest London.
	Shut your mouth!
	But it was like, you know, 15 quid for a block.
	I would go in there for the free tasters and leave, is what I would do.
	But yeah, delicious stuff is available.
	But I was having the regular dairy kind, and it was because of you that I was afforded the time to sit and eat cheese, which was very welcomed.
	That's wonderful!
	It was great.
	I got myself some nice cheeses from my local Aldi, so European variants, I had a Camembert, I had a smoked thingy, I had a really good goat's cheese that was delicious, some Stilton, and I sat and I had some port and I ate some cheese, and I watched All the President's Men, which I'd never seen before.
	Really?
	I'd never seen it, no.
	I've got a long list of old movies, and I'm a fucker for classic cinema.
	I love old movies.
	Anything that's like 70s and before, I am in.
	And obviously, Robert Redford, fantastic.
	Young Dustin Hoffman, awesome.
	I mean, old Dustin Hoffman, also great.
	But young Dustin Hoffman, super great.
	What a great film!
	And obviously, it's about Watergate, right?
	It's about all that kind of thing going on.
	Really, really well done from start to finish.
	It did make me think, oh, how quaint.
	Yeah.
	How quaint that so much drama, so much suspense, so much conspiracy and outrage over, you know, bugging the Democratic thing, you know, the offices.
	And I'm like, man.
	An afterthought that would happen, yeah, today.
	If that happened today.
	If that happened today, specifically had it happened while Trump was in office, because he's more likely to do that than Biden, I would say, the response would have just been, it's legal.
	It's fine.
	I can do that.
	I'm the president.
	Oh, they own an Alexa?
	Like, that's it?
	Like, okay.
	That's just what is happening now.
	It's so crazy.
	That was actually, yeah, that movie was like this radical, it was, I mean, I have quite a smattering of radicalizing moments in my young life, but that was definitely one of them was like, I think I was like 13 or 14.
	I took, because again, I've been an insufferable little weird piece of shit nerd from the jump.
	So, like, I watched that, I think I might have been 14, it was like early high school, I think, and I watched it and I was like, what the fuck?
	Like, it was really, you know, it was a moment for me.
	It was cool.
	It was really cool.
	It was, you know, it was cool that they, you know, interspersed it with real footage of the president and of, you know, all that.
	Yeah, really, really well done.
	Really, really well done.
	Really enjoyed it.
	And I really enjoyed my cheese.
	Had my cheese, had my pork, watched a movie, fell asleep on the couch.
	Great evening.
	Yes!
	I'm so glad!
	That's awesome.
	I'm so glad.
	And then, of course, woke up at 3am and was like, fuck, I've prepared none of the things I need to prepare for work tomorrow.
	Okay, let's go!
	Let's sort out my kids' lunch and all of this stuff at 3am.
	Alright, let's do it!
	But, you know, you take the good with the bad.
	The rough with the smooth.
	Now, we have a show to deal with, but first we should thank some new Patrons, and we have just the one this week.
	So, Armand Tanzarian, you are now an Awakening Wonder.
	You are indeed an Awakening Wonder.
	Thank you, Armand.
	Thank you so much, Armand!
	Very much appreciated.
	Also one of my favourite names.
	And Hmm.
	There's someone, I've read a book with someone, one of the characters was named that, and I liked.
	So there we go.
	You got that backing you up, Armand.
	I realize that's completely apropos of nothing and completely irrelevant to your existence.
	But there we go, congrats!
	And thank you, thank you very much.
	You get tangential credit, I think.
	You do, you do.
	Yeah, exactly.
	The Armands, in my experience, pretty decent.
	Ah!
	It was Girl with a Dragon Tattoo, that's what it was.
	Okay, cool.
	If anyone wants to support us in what we do, become an Awakening Wonder, join the Invisible Hand, or donate on an elevated tier, head to Patreon.com slash OnBrand and you will have our eternal gratitude.
	It's this which allows us to be editorially independent and ad-free.
	As a patron, you will also get a shout-out on the show and access to our patron-only show OffBrand, where we talk about pretty much anything but Russell Brand.
	As mentioned, we had a very special First History Corner from Lauren this week, which I had absolutely nothing to do with, and it is an excellent watch slash listen.
	Yeah, and please note that while you can easily listen to our audio version anywhere you can find podcasts, you can also watch us on YouTube, or if you listen in the Spotify app, the video should come up there.
	Two.
	Alright, so this week is going to be something a little bit different.
	At the request of our beloved Obfuscating Cloud tier patron Juan Jalapena, we are going to have something of a dive into grifter income streams and how that all works and intersects and how it all fucking happened.
	And Lauren is going to be leading the charge this week while I have almost no idea what she's going to present me with.
	A little bit of a reverse on brand.
	I'd call it a brand on, but that just has connotations of brand getting turned on.
	So no, no, no, no.
	Nope.
	I'm out of that one.
	If you have any name suggestions, Lauren, I'm game for anything but that one.
	We've already used such good puns.
	It's tough.
	I know.
	Yeah, we need a good one.
	We need a good one.
	We'll have to have a think.
	But anyway, time for you to torture me this week.
	So have at it!
	Yay!
	I get to drive this time!
	Oh no!
	Two-in-Style, what are you doing?
	Oh God!
	Yeah, right?
	I hope it doesn't go that way.
	No guarantees.
	I'm gonna do my best.
	Right, so, in addition to schedule adjustments, which kind of put me in scramble mode last week, in the last week or so, including prepping for our event, Grabadelania, I'm plugging it up top.
	Suck it.
	So, right.
	Grab it along.
	Yeah, this Sunday.
	I'm not suck it.
	It's awesome.
	This is really fun.
	This Sunday at the National Museum of Mexican Art in Chicago.
	The people who switch off when we do plugs can suck it and listen.
	That may or may not be included in the in the show at some point later.
	So right.
	So this Sunday.
	What, the 19th?
	Yeah, the 19th from 10 to 4 p.m.
	It's free and it's gonna be very cool at the National Museum of Mexican Art in Chicago.
	I'm having to also prep for like a big one of our biggest events of the year in addition to writing some episodes.
	It's been a week.
	It's been a week.
	I've thrown many life rafts and they have been refused.
	No, I accepted some.
	I still delegated.
	True, true, true.
	I'm honestly proud of myself.
	You accepted a life jacket.
	You accepted a life jacket.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I accepted some floaties and I'm fine with it.
	Honestly, kind of proud of myself.
	That was like an accomplishment in and of itself.
	No, I can give you a percentage of this workload.
	And I'm going to, which I'm, it's honestly harder than you think.
	So right.
	So anyway, to the event, I'm still bringing my A game.
	I've got a bunch of new cool stuff.
	Mike is going to be doing a live screen printing demo with free take homes, which we do every year.
	And I A booth chock full of reasonably priced art.
	It's cool and the stress is worth it.
	Also, fun life wrenches got thrown in the works.
	Same time this week.
	We're here, we're doing it.
	I'd rather show up imperfectly than not at all.
	Because we've also got rad stuff coming down the pike and this is going to allow us to do that.
	So switching up the format for this episode also means I don't have like clips really.
	I'll have a few little nuggets here and there, but nothing like we normally do.
	And I'm also brand new to writing an episode of a thing, so I will do my best to adapt to our usual rhythm of like, clip, react, explain, discuss, and then repeat.
	Yeah, we'll do what we can.
	And also, charmingly, it's amazing that our homie John Hwan was concerned this subject couldn't fill an episode when it's reality.
	It's literally several whole sections of just podcasts.
	Like, you can look up this subject and there are thousands.
	Each heading that I'm going to try to touch on today has an ocean of research, academic study, explainer and debunking content behind it.
	It's bananas.
	Like every government on earth has at least a few whole bureaucratic institutions dedicated to these subjects.
	It is truly an iceberg, so we're gonna do our best to tackle that bit that's sticking out of the water.
	And we'll always have time to deep dive later and specific topic comes up that is relevant in the future but I think this is, I'm confident that I can give you guys a sufficient overview and overview meaning that A big part of the problem that I had researching was my biggest challenge being that I can't, it's very hard to find concrete facts and figures.
	I mean obviously Time Crunch is part of it and I'm not going to say that that was, you know, that's on me, on us, on the schedule.
	That's the kind of detail I just didn't have as much time to nail down.
	It is what it is.
	But also, just even in writing this out, I thought about it, the dollar amounts are often so massive.
	I personally have an extremely hard time conceiving of that level of wealth at all.
	Truly.
	And not to say that it isn't relevant to have, you know, concrete facts and figures, but I don't exactly know how informative those specific numbers are when we're trying to tell a larger story.
	They, as in they being the grifters and their investment slash funding apparatuses, also don't seem to care themselves all that much about the numbers.
	And where it's coming from so much as the flow of money into the coffers.
	They want it big and constant.
	That's what she said.
	Yeah.
	So that's more--
	that's more of what I'm--
	I mean, where's the lie?
	Like, so, right.
	That's more of what I'm aiming to illustrate and how diverse the options are for a grifting opportunist.
	So, also, those facts and figures I've been searching in vain, mostly, for are obscured by design.
	That is a benefit to these people.
	So not only for the crypters, but the economy as a whole.
	Pin in that, by the way.
	A lot of concrete facts and figures just aren't there, or they are, and they're extremely hard to get to for the Google University skill set of a person like me.
	Also, why I don't get that mad at people... I mean, it sucks, but misunderstandings happen, and it's not as easy to find the right information all the time, and for everyone.
	No, no, absolutely not.
	It's tough.
	Especially private people doing technically private things, like fucking hell.
	Yeah.
	It's really, really tough to find.
	Yeah.
	Unless they happen to intersect with a public company at some point, then you can get some information, but probably not much.
	Yeah, or there's like a lawsuit, and maybe it's available, you don't know.
	It's tough.
	Yeah, like I said about people like Russell who attack the quote-unquote deep state, just because the information is too deep for you to find or care to spend the time and energy to find doesn't mean it's a conspiracy.
	It means shit is complicated.
	So I'm going to do my best to asterisk estimates as much as possible because there's a lot of knitting together desperate information to Give you a ballpark idea.
	And some leeway where I don't know facts and figures.
	And the same with history stuff.
	Not knowing for sure means you kind of have to keep more stuff in your head at the same time when you're learning about this stuff.
	But that doesn't mean that it's inaccessible.
	It's just a thing that you have to learn.
	And it's It's totally doable, and it's totally normal, and it's fine to not always have a concrete yes or no, but have an idea, and then when you can find those concrete tidbits, you know where to file them in your head.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	That, to me, is the process and the practice of keeping an open mind, right?
	So what's also an extremely challenging element of the quote-unquote online research is also the quality of the research.
	I'm doing a lot of like kind of setting us up for the content because this is since it's going to be an overview.
	I will come back to this later but I think that podcasts like Maintenance Phase, If Books Could Kill, there's like Twitter account that's like in mice or in rats or something.
	That is all about studies that are basing these, like, pretty extreme claims on, like, testing in mice or rats that are not people.
	They're, like, really not people.
	So the application of those results are, at best, dubious?
	In fact, animal testing has been found to be kind of not nearly as useful as we thought.
	But it exposes the limitations of modern research, both privately and publicly funded, peer-reviewed or not, which also exists in a spectrum, variations of interpretation of data, and how science communication can really be hit or miss.
	Plus, Immense pressure to severely reduce the bandwidth allowed for science reporters or eliminating them from newsrooms entirely.
	They were kind of really important but not particularly lucrative, so they just had to go.
	Plus a lot of the actual numbers and research I could find At least a few years old, if not way more.
	Often from like 2002 to 2006.
	Like a lot of numbers I was like, I read stuff and I'm like, oh, this doesn't apply.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know, we know the world is a vastly different place, so we either have to entertain the potentiality that is being described, but not necessarily rely on old data, or we're supposed to throw it out entirely.
	Not all research results can be extrapolated exponentially.
	In fact, most can't.
	Graph can't always just go up or go down ad infinitum.
	That's not really how it works.
	So, dubious research claims, and I was going to kick it to you for just talking about research if you have anything to add to my proposition of how research works.
	Based on the many, many researches I must do for this show.
	ALICE Yeah, it's a tough gig, in some areas.
	Some stuff is super fucking easy to find, like, oh, the WHO is undemocratic!
	I'm like, well, let's see what the WHO structure is.
	Oh, okay.
	One website.
	Literally, top click on the Google search.
	Done.
	Nailed it.
	Other stuff is much harder to find!
	And yeah, stuff to do with income especially, and specifics around private people.
	Often, people's opinions and positions on things can be very hard to find as well, because they often get obfuscated or just... like, yeah.
	Unless someone says something and it's picked up by a media outlet somewhere, then good luck.
	ALICE Yeah, there's a lot of things that are really tough to find out, and there's always an aspect of needing to check your sources as well, and that can be really tough.
	Again, especially with this kind of thing specifically, because there are so many fuckin' websites that, Oh, estimate this person's net worth, and how did this person make money, y'know?
	There are THOUSANDS of those out there.
	ALICE Oh yeah.
	Guess how many I have had to look at and then go, uh!
	Yes, exactly.
	Most of them are full of shit, and the concept of net worth is inherently a difficult one to understand anyway.
	Because, I mean, Russells is still at supposedly $20 million, but I think his actual His actual net worth is, you know, the sum of all of his assets and income and all of that is way the fuck more.
	But people still think it's 20 for some inexplicable reason.
	But again, that might just be people not bothering to take a look in some time.
	That's definitely possible.
	Or just not being able to.
	Or not being able to, yeah.
	Rich people can hide money.
	It's like a big problem.
	It's like a common Big problem.
	And so it's not, you know, like that's what's tough about, you know, you start to sound real wiggity and real conspiracy, you know, real goofy, real quick.
	And there's a lot of points where I'm like, I'm going to sound nuts, but this is the truth, like in this whole process where like, Y'all are just gonna have to write it out with me, and trust me.
	Or don't!
	Just listen, and entertain the notion.
	Honestly, I'm not even asking you to trust me, I'm just saying put this on the pile of thoughts, and if you can fill in where we're missing parts, fuck yeah.
	Let's do it.
	Please do.
	Let's work it out together.
	But I think everyone should be on board with the general conspiracy that rich people like to obfuscate how much money they have in a lot of cases, specifically how much money they have, where it is, and how they got it, you know?
	Because, yeah, it serves them best to hide that information.
	Well, conversely, People like the former President Trump of the United States of America will inflate numbers to get his own raft of concessions or sweeten the deal for an investment.
	Inflate status, yeah.
	Yeah, it's a big thing.
	It's so shocking and crazy to hear because, I mean, these people can just tell, you know, like they can just make, it used to be called Cook in the Books, I believe it still is, but now you can just tell different numbers to different agencies.
	Only if you write it down, I don't know.
	I feel like someone like Trump could be like, yeah, I've got five billion in the bank, and he says it to enough people, and somehow that will end up on a Google search when you look for the guy's net worth.
	It's one of those situations.
	It is a little bit.
	AI is also making it worse, too.
	And just, okay, every single, every single, I, listen, I, guys, I know that I, I, I can tend towards hyperbole for fun.
	I know that.
	Right now.
	When I tell you every single Google search I have done Is mostly people trying to sell me bullshit.
	Straight up.
	Like, three-fourths of all of the results that I'm looking for, facts, figures, numbers, stats, is some stupid motherfucker trying to sell me shit.
	The economics of the grift have never been bigger.
	That is just a fact.
	To the point where I'm going to build an argument that grifting itself has become so prevalent and so pervasive, we don't even see most of it anymore.
	Which is why I want to start with definitions.
	So preface over.
	Let's get down to business.
	Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines grift as... I'm kidding.
	I'm not going to do that.
	That's stupid.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So I do want to start with defining our terms and talking about the concept of grift generally to start.
	So We're discussing what qualifies as... We've discussed what qualifies as grift.
	We've defined grift before, right?
	We've defined that because people have accused us of being one, and it was hilarious.
	Adorable.
	I'll be picking that bone later as well, thank you.
	Um, right, but I want to set up.
	I will let what I want to do is quit running into my table.
	Um, okay, so it's gonna keep the rest of us.
	I have a pile of insane person papers.
	I'm gonna like it's gonna happen.
	You've seen my notes.
	Big board with string.
	You need to be Charlie Day and a big board with string.
	That needs to be you.
	I wanted to... I'm like, can I get a whiteboard together?
	But also it'll be backwards.
	Anyway, so I do want to set out a benchmark of what a grift is that we can measure against and really get into... Because we've been like, oh yeah, lying is a grift.
	But I think we can really get into it.
	And just to give folks an idea of what we're dealing with, because this is...
	There is so much of the iceberg that honestly is invisible to most people.
	And great, good, you don't need to worry about it.
	So, I am going to use a little bit of dictionary after all.
	So, grift, the word grift, I think it's interesting.
	Comes from graft, because also this is like a UK-US kind of bridging the gap here.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Graft, right.
	Meaning hard work derived from graft is applied to botany.
	To graft a new shoot onto a plant.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Isn't that fucking fascinating?
	That is interesting.
	Yeah, doing some hard graft over here, you know, working hard.
	Hard graft.
	I know about, like, graft, what it means in the, like, you know, the UK usage.
	But right, so that to me, and also I know about grafting a plant.
	So I was like, oh, that's fucking Yeah, I had no idea the two were connected.
	I know, right?
	Cool.
	Super cool.
	And other definitions would include ways of getting money.
	But this is the basic that we kind of talk about.
	It's like ways of getting money dishonestly that involve tricking someone, or petty or small-scale swindling is what we kind of think of as grift, or to obtain money or property illicitly in some way.
	That does not mean illegal.
	It can be- there's illegal grift, and there is just unethical, immoral, or inappropriate grift.
	Dishonest, yeah.
	Right.
	And that makes it that much more complicated because plenty of kinds of grift are completely legal under the, like, under the Legal system.
	We live in a system of capitalism.
	Come on.
	And other people were talking about that too.
	And there's actually some good stuff that I found.
	But yeah, but that like idea of this hard, like there's no like hard line between any of this stuff.
	Because if you're an adult, you get to choose where you put your money.
	That's a big argument that the legal system makes.
	It's like, well, you can't control what your grandma spends her money on.
	I don't know what to tell you.
	Peter Popov has your inheritance.
	I'm sorry.
	There's not a lot that the legal system is set up to do.
	So that's also why we do this fucking podcast!
	Right.
	If y'all didn't know.
	So, graft still means hard work to Brits, but the meaning changed in America.
	From CJR.org, quote, the Americans gave it its dark side, the word graft.
	Around 1865, the OED—this is the people that study words—says, Graft, in the U.S., was, quote, also quote, into quote, the obtaining a profit or advantage by dishonest or shady means, especially bribery, blackmail, or the abuse of a position of power or influence.
	So, we're dealing with that.
	And Marian Webster made a Words at Play entry in their blog on the difference between grifter and grafter.
	A grifter is a small-time confidence man, a carnival swindler, or a thief of some sort or other.
	Also kind of sounds fun.
	The grafter, right?
	I was a tattooer, man.
	That's all part of it.
	For the history of tattooing is rife with colorful characters, shall we say.
	The grafter, however, may be most of these things, but also may be someone who engages in the political corruption sense.
	Of the word graft, right?
	Oh, interesting.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, there's a really great New York Times article, from 2018, that talks a lot about just like kind of the explosion of grift.
	So, grift and grifter are old-fashioned words, but ever more useful ones.
	Because honestly, the availability of, like, mini-Grift has never been, like, more prevalent, really.
	Grift evokes not so much specific criminal acts as a broad, opportunistic racket, executed with a bit of cunning and panache.
	You know, bells and whistles.
	Grifter captures the kind of person who takes up such ploys as a trade, an art, or a way of being.
	A con man, right?
	And also, fun subject of any movie.
	Facts.
	Sorry.
	Also a fascinating person.
	There's a movie called Grifters, isn't there?
	Probably.
	I'm pretty sure I've seen it.
	I remember seeing that and enjoying it, I think.
	I mean, it's the P.T.
	Barnum of it all, you know?
	Honestly, they're proto-marketing executives is what they are, but there's so many different little ways that this has developed through our society over time, which is fascinating.
	So, which are grifters and which are grafters?
	So grafters are stolen.
	This is a version.
	I'm gonna we'll get into it a little bit there.
	They're stolen and conventional lining their pockets and then quietly retreating to one of their several homes.
	Grifters are the ones with flair and ambition who seem to delight in the con itself.
	Sound familiar?
	Yeah, maybe.
	The cleverness of the scheme, the smooth ease with which the marks were gulled, which is a seagull term.
	That's actually a very old term, too.
	Gulled?
	Yeah.
	It's about stealing eggs.
	It's crazy.
	I was right, by the way.
	It's a John Cusack movie.
	So there we go.
	The Grifters.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Catch me if you can.
	Listen, the stories are incredible.
	It's great.
	They are so much fun to read and consume.
	Not so much fun to deal with in reality.
	Or live with.
	Or have all your tax money stolen.
	It's not stolen.
	Oh my god.
	I need to quit saying that.
	Anyway, it just feels stolen.
	Which I think is fine.
	It feels that way, right?
	So, right.
	So, grift versus graft is a question of scale.
	But also, we're using words from a time where the scale of profits in general looked completely different.
	A hundred years ago?
	Oh my god.
	It's night and day.
	And unfortunately, I think that these terms are that much more Useful when you have this like polarizing have and have not society.
	So I think the fact that we are talking about this so much more is not a good sign trend wise for the rest of us.
	Yeah, no, it is definitely kind of hitting a tipping point where, you know, I've seen fucking shitheads on Reddit being like, oh, they'll call anyone a grifter these days.
	It's like, well, if they're grifting, maybe, maybe they will.
	It's easier than ever.
	It's literally more, it's an actual real problem of proliferation.
	Like, The number of quote-unquote presidential candidates up there at the moment, you know, a good chunk of those definitely kind of fit a good portion of the bill.
	Yeah, and that's also an excellent contrast, I think, as far as institutional grift versus To me, like, I've been trying to find ways to explain it, like retail grift.
	You know, that kind of, like, retail versus, like, institutional bureaucratic.
	So it's a question of scale.
	Grift is the cure-all tonic being sold at a tent revival.
	Also, they fucking entertained you, at least.
	Like, at least you got a show.
	At least you got a tap dance.
	That's true.
	Got to see someone faint on a stage.
	I mean, it's entertaining.
	Speaking in tongues?
	Always funny.
	Always funny.
	Oh, I will disagree, but... Okay, for me it's funny.
	Performative?
	Yes.
	Yeah, when somebody's really going to town.
	Oh, when someone's made it on the internet in a video?
	Great.
	Shamalahamala.
	I live.
	Yeah, good for you.
	That's real.
	Like, good for you, everybody.
	I hope it goes viral.
	Yeah, there's plenty of applications that are personal that are just a fucking bummer.
	Because people, you can't tell them.
	You're just making noises.
	I think it really bad.
	You can't be like, I know what you're doing.
	Bibbidi-bobbidi-boobidi is not a language.
	I know you know what you're doing.
	Well, I don't think you know what you're doing.
	It's a weird thing to watch.
	Anyway, but it's that.
	It's hucksterism.
	And let me tell you, being a hill person and from the hill people, A lot of our entertainment, it might be simple, but it's really fun.
	And so I do want to go out of my way, and I'll try to remember.
	So I'm just going to say this now, and I'll try to remember to do this.
	And if I don't, definitely put a button on it.
	I think that it's so close between what a grift and just a legitimate job can be.
	Because of entertainment.
	Because if you're giving people what they want, if you're giving them entertainment, it can be kind of bullshitty, but like, there's a line, and I think that Russell crosses the line by calling himself news, but there are arguments to be made that really blur the line of grift.
	Because we can have a preference, For someone's ethical choices.
	We can have our own moral code that we bring to a situation, but there is a gray area.
	And I'm going to try to give the benefit of the doubt for a money-making scheme, and then we'll go into the ugly parts of it.
	I'm going to try to do that as best I can.
	Because, yeah, playing the piano and doing a tap dance, if you're charging the same Same to get in the tent and have a fun time with your community.
	You can just pay for a fall festival and have fun.
	It's the upcharge. It's the upsell and the dishonesty of this, you know, pond water with some
	morphine in it will cure all your ailments.
	Like, that's where... Yeah, it's the lying where the grift comes in.
	And Russell is a prolific liar, so... Well, and it takes real talent to con!
	That's talent!
	Like, real talent!
	So, like, there's a line, right?
	But, well, I'd say there's a field.
	Mass.
	Not so much a line.
	Even hedging for the best case scenario, I think we still can make a very salient point.
	So, Graft, on the other hand, is Enron.
	It's Paul Manafort and the Marcos regime in the Philippines.
	To me, Grift seems to be outside the system in some way.
	A little more fly-by-night, untraceable, wildcard, you know, identifying a weakness and exploiting it early before the loophole is closed.
	Gettin' in and out.
	Generally individuals.
	Well, yeah, or just like a small, nimble kind of, you know, like, getting in and getting out.
	Gettin' while the gettin's good.
	Wolf of Wall Street situation, maybe, you know?
	Yes.
	Absolutely.
	100% yes.
	Whereas Graft seems more institutional, like identifying a loophole, also identifying a weakness in the system from within the system, and solidifying that loophole within the institution, perhaps widening the loophole over time with lobbying and lawsuits and propaganda and manipulation.
	As a country with our first oligarch prime minister, I wouldn't know anything about that.
	Your first?
	Get with it.
	Okay, our first official oligarch prime minister.
	Also, this is completely a complete aside, but did you see we now have Lord Pigfucker is back?
	Yep.
	David Gammon made a return.
	I did.
	Yeah, but that lady shouldn't have said that stuff, though.
	She shouldn't have said that.
	They had agreed.
	They had to make him a lord so they could give him a job.
	Because he's not a member of parliament anymore.
	They had to make him a lord so that he could do the job.
	We live in an insane world.
	Anyway, please continue.
	Well, speaking of insane world.
	Yes.
	Buckle in.
	All right.
	So that weakness, identifying that loophole.
	Like making somebody a lord is a perfect example!
	Fucking!
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Ingrained within the system, so it's technically legal, right?
	Yes, it is.
	Yeah, and then whomever can access that loophole will just keep at it until the well is dry, if it ever dries.
	He's gonna be king, so carry on.
	Case in point, so our Congress is allowed to basically do insider trading, and to engineer insider trading.
	Um, and I don't know why it's not illegal.
	It is wildly unethical.
	It obviously should be legal.
	But we need to close the loophole.
	And if everyone in charge of that is not willing to do it, gee, this seems like a problem with the system.
	Or...
	You know, you know him, you love him.
	Clarence Thomas and his family having this wildly, decades-long, lavish lifestyle.
	Being subsidized by one or a couple of rich dicks.
	Not technically illegal, we have found out.
	Kinda assumed it was.
	Nope.
	And not even punishable because of our congressional deadlock.
	Obviously wildly unethical.
	Obviously corrupt.
	But that's still, I mean, oopsie poopsie is kind of the answer that we've been given.
	Good luck is pretty much the response.
	More like sit and spin is what I've gotten from the whole, yeah, right.
	So I'll also be using our personal, like I said, using our personal experience with the concept of Grift as it pertains to our own podcast because we are the world's two tippy-top experts on the on-brand podcast.
	We are literally the best source of information.
	I can say that unequivocally.
	Without a doubt.
	Yeah, we know the most about how our podcast works by default, and we can explain it inside and out.
	I think we probably do explain it too much already, but whatever.
	So, Using us as an example, again, like as a guide, as a measuring stick, I think is a really good, you know, we're already on the level.
	Also, I've got decades of experience in the side hustle, quote unquote, aka having multiple jobs and income streams to live.
	I've supported myself with both high highs and low lows, almost entirely on the product of my physical hands' handiwork since I was like 20.
	And I still did half of it before that.
	I think I made my first sale when I was seven at my mom's jewelry store.
	And I started selling bracelets that I made I think when I was 12.
	Like, it's just always been there.
	Small business kids will know.
	It's just how it works.
	But also, the world has changed.
	So I guess it's actually more than 20 years.
	Yeah, so I was 20.
	I'm now 39, almost 40, just for perspective and why my bones hurt.
	Now, the world has changed a whole lot in 20 years.
	And I've been present and observing for the whole sordid affair.
	I'm not super comfortable to discuss my income, mostly because it's depressing and it makes people feel weird or guilty, and frankly it's kind of alienating for me to be like, To talk about my situation, I'm not a charity case.
	I want to use my experience to speak to the wider issue.
	This is something that we don't talk about a lot in the podcast, it's sort of implied, but my voice is not one you usually hear.
	At all.
	Because of the barrier to entry for, say, like, podcasting or content creation in general, the barrier to entry is often too high to maintain.
	If Al wasn't doing what Al does, I could not do this by myself.
	The fact that I could do this by myself is a fucking big fucking fucking deal!
	It's awesome!
	But, like, I can't just do it by myself because, like, it's just...
	Not, like, I'm trading hours in the day, and hopefully we'll get to it later.
	I also don't want to talk about myself too much.
	I'm going to anyway, because my brain doesn't work great.
	But I think that, first of all, Al needs to get credit for also, like, working on this, pulling it out, because we're doing it.
	But it's important to, like, I want to be able to represent a, like, a point of view that People tell stories about statistics about me, but I don't get to talk about myself.
	I don't get to talk about my experience.
	And guess what?
	I have seen more and more people every year Come into, you know, like, this kind of financially precarious, socially precarious, no safety net place.
	So we're gonna have to start talking about it.
	And I don't want to make anybody feel, you know, again, please don't, like, be, you know, consider me pitiful or anything when I do talk about it, but, like, it's just the fucking facts.
	Because more and more people, like, the Uber drivers of the world deserve to be heard and deserve to be, you know, Have concern.
	I don't know if you want to add anything to the side hustle moment as far as like how how things have changed for you.
	As an adult, that you've seen.
	Tough.
	I know, I know.
	Kind of a broad question.
	Well, when you said, like, a lot has changed in 20 years, I was, like, harking back, it was, like, 2003.
	What the fuck did the world look like in 2003?
	I'm like, oh my god, that was, you know, um, I don't know, the internet had, like, I don't know, it felt like it had just started to take hold properly in 2003.
	I still had dial-up, baby!
	Yeah!
	Dial-up nation, man!
	Always important, by the way!
	We had broadband, I think?
	I don't know.
	I mean, that was before I'd even gotten MSN Messenger, I think, at that point.
	It's a world that I struggle to recall properly.
	And it's that fucking different.
	Even just the concept of not being in immediate contact with everyone you know, is a real... Because I grew up in the middle of nowhere as well, so there wasn't any phone signal.
	It's just bizarre.
	Regular landline telephones and calling people was how I would communicate with people, and that was pretty much it.
	And kind of harking back to that, yeah, the world has changed some.
	I will say that.
	It's been a little fucking wild!
	It's been a minute!
	And this is also harkening back to a point where people like us, the vernacular, the words didn't properly exist.
	I didn't even think about it!
	for people like us. The word non-binary was not particularly prevalent, for instance.
	Various kind of LGBTQ+ words were not...
	KAREN I didn't even think about it.
	MARK Right.
	KAREN It didn't even occur to me.
	MARK They're just one thing.
	They just weren't a thing.
	Yeah, right.
	And having a place to talk about that kind of stuff with you on this podcast is like, boy, if I had these words.
	Yeah, 100%.
	100%.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, 100%, 100%.
	Right.
	You know what I mean?
	Right.
	And, you know, and I think that is partly why voices like yours
	and to a degree like mine are harder to find.
	There's a lot of barriers.
	Partly because those things didn't exist.
	A lot of barriers.
	Cultural, social, all kinds of things.
	I think it is unfortunately just an area where, unless you're pretty much a straight white man, Then, uh, good luck, I guess.
	Well, and even just the conception of the internet.
	Basically, like, once smartphones, because we all thought, because even I thought that, like, oh, everybody just had the internet, you know, because I had the, like, real, and I kind of still do have, like, the real, like, Rube Goldberg cobbled together, barely hanging on by a thread technology to be able to interact in the, you know, like, In a modern way, but really it was like 20 like 2007 is whenever smartphones came out I believe and then like 2014 is like 2013-2014 is kind of when smartphones really did blow up access to the internet for most people.
	I think if you had the internet you you know before that like you didn't really have a concept.
	I think people still don't have a concept of how many people still don't have Ready internet access have to go to the library, you know, like people still don't know that.
	And it's hard to keep in your mind.
	But I think it's important, especially so we're going to transition to the next kind of point, which is defining a job versus a gig.
	Because Without the proliferation, honestly, of smartphones, gig economy isn't a thing.
	So we need to talk about how that works.
	So the job, I mean, I'm at the risk of being too obvious, right?
	A job implies a guaranteed income in some form from an employer.
	The employer carries the burden of financial risk while the employee is paid hourly or by salary for their labor, whatever is contracted.
	This is the Definition for the sake of the argument, right?
	We're just going to keep it simple.
	So in theory, there are legal frameworks in place to ensure that an employee will get compensated or is entitled to compensation for their labor as agreed with their employer.
	A gig is an opportunity to make money, not a guarantee.
	The worker takes on the risk, while the employer, with exceptions, facilitates the means of a part of the job to be done, in theory.
	So this is a gamble.
	There are no guarantees that the worker will make any money.
	Or for that matter, no guarantees that they will lose all their money or go into debt over operating costs or quote, startup fees.
	This gamble can pay off, like the gamble we're taking with this podcast, right?
	Like, that's what we're doing.
	But more than likely, not to also bum us out about this podcast venture, but unless you get in early and work fast, the market's demand will decrease over time, regardless of what the efforts Regardless of the efforts being made by the individual worker, they can be blamed for failing, but it's usually not their fault.
	So tons of gig contract work absolutely allows folks to make a decent living, decent to extremely comfortable.
	Obviously, the sky is the limit, as in a casino, right?
	I made a really handy little Job equals money per hour.
	It's a very sophisticated... Listen.
	It's reversed.
	It's a mirror shot.
	I think I can reverse your... I did both!
	I did both!
	I did both!
	You did both!
	See?
	That's good to know.
	That's way easier.
	I can write backwards kind of, so I was just like, I'll just do both and we'll figure it out when we get there.
	So this is a handy dandy little job equals money per hour MLM gig scam means question mark per hour.
	So this is a very sophisticated system of This is really sophisticated stuff here.
	I'm doing design for this show.
	Some serious analysis, I appreciate that.
	It's just, honestly, the amount of fucking DoorDash commercials I'm seeing these days, it's crazy.
	Do you know what I'm curious about, right?
	What just kind of struck me is, like, obviously before smartphones and everything, kind of the way the gig economy would work would be through, like, temp agencies and stuff, right?
	It would be like, we need people to fill this thing.
	Why the... I don't expect you to answer this, but why the fuck has recruitment, since the advent of the smartphone and gig economy, the recruitment sector has fucking exploded doing that exact same thing, right?
	I bet you know the answer.
	All right, so here's the thing.
	This is a follow the money episode.
	And I know that we make fun of people and we shit on folks who are like, follow the money.
	We're actually following the money.
	So this is going to be an exercise.
	All the president's men, deep throat, follow the money, follow the money.
	That was the thing.
	I didn't come out this crazy.
	I had help along the way.
	You know what I mean?
	We're going to be following the money.
	Also, I couldn't find any... Oh my god, did I look?
	I couldn't find any real research.
	There's definitely some things I'm kind of putting together that I don't see people talking about a lot.
	And I think one, like this, the kind of the, the progression, and I do have some years on you being a miserable adult.
	Um, I, I do have some years on you in that regard.
	So like I have, you know, and, and so you kind of got to go with me here.
	Um, but like watching the progression of having to interact with these weird markets that like, Now Silicon Valley says that they're disrupting a market.
	It's just fucking exploitation.
	It's just like ruining shit.
	And so apartment brokers, like there's, you know, there's a lot to be said for a real estate agent because there's a lot of...
	Difficult ins and outs of real estate.
	There's a lot of contracts.
	There's a ton of law, legal shit.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Right?
	But also, you can make a lot of fucking money.
	It's a commission.
	It's like a percentage base.
	Also, if you bullshit your way through it, you can make a fortune.
	Legitimately, though, you can do a really fucking good job.
	If you do a really good job, you can make a fortune too.
	You can get more money for somebody.
	Like if you're, I will sell this house today.
	If you're doing that move, you can make somebody a lot more money on their house.
	You can get a bigger return on their investment.
	That's the thing is like, it can be scammy.
	It can feel scammy, but it can also just be someone doing a good job.
	Yeah, there are good chunks of society, as we know it, that just feel gross.
	And we all just have to live with that.
	Right.
	Well, and that'll also come up later, too.
	But right, so here's where we define investment.
	Because boy, investment, donation, support, ooh, those words just get tossed around!
	In the most absurd ways.
	And again, I do want to speak to my own experience because I've been making stuff.
	I'm good at making stuff.
	I'm good at sourcing stuff.
	I'm good at developing stuff.
	And I'm good at making the thing and making it look fucking rad.
	What I'm not good at is the business crap.
	And so I've read and I'm kind of like I went there it's a phase that I feel like a lot of us went through that I finally had to like let go forgive myself and understand the amount of fucking blog posts I have read on Pinterest.
	About your small business.
	None of them speaking to me.
	Not a one.
	Like, even ones that are like, for artists, for small artists.
	Like, no, no, no.
	Y'all have no idea how to advise me, what my day looks like.
	It is bullshit from nose to tail.
	It's amazing.
	But, If you follow the model that they put forth, you find a niche that's interesting.
	You find a niche that's successful by doing market research.
	You think I've done market research on the art I make?
	I try, because I kind of have to.
	But it's a wacky idea first, not market research and then you fit in wherever you can.
	Because there's an implication that you can just start and then, oh, well, you go where the good return on investment is, right?
	Yeah, you go where the gap is.
	You go where the thing is.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Which has nothing to do with me.
	And again, I got to revisit this whole griftosphere again, researching this episode.
	It's like, these fucking people!
	So, investment.
	It's like, investment, entrepreneur, business owner.
	Oh my god, these things are thrown around willy-nilly and pell-mell.
	So, the most basic possible understanding is that you invest and not always money.
	And I think that's something that's very difficult for people to understand as far as how we are commodified.
	Following the money again, how we are commodified to social media like apps, if an app is free.
	It's not really free, right?
	So it can be time, talent, expertise, resources of any kind.
	It has value.
	It is an investment.
	So you invest with the intention to see a return, a profit higher above your initial entry fee.
	So investments usually do imply some degree of risk, but stability can be wildly overstated with anecdotes and testimonials.
	You know, those narratives we've evolved to believe as a species?
	We are exploited because of how we like to hear each other tell stories.
	So the high risk, high reward model also isn't always what it seems.
	Because you can have high risk and then low reward and you don't find out until you're done.
	Conversely, some quote-unquote high-risk investment, such as when discussing the risk of an employer or business, seems to be taking on, talking about job versus gig, can often be exaggerated or fabricated entirely so as to justify the percentage of profits gained and held by the From the employees' labor, or justify how employees are treated, or the health and safety of the working environment, because big risk means big compensation, apparently.
	So the big risk, big compensation has always been the model for business to an extent, but I think that we've been cranked to 11.
	And I think it's harder and harder to kind of parse, right?
	So a gig or MLM, honestly, I feel like they're so much closer.
	We say gig economy.
	We don't say pyramid scheme economy.
	I think they're way closer.
	Yes, uncomfortably, uncomfortably.
	There's a lot of reasons for that, right?
	So Giger MLM will very often be described as an investment.
	That's why people like Russell will say, like, give and support when you're just paying him, right?
	A lot of mindset speak, corporate motivational speak, mixed with traditional job comparisons and potentially religious tropes or appealing to a higher self.
	It's all way more bullshitty than you can imagine, right?
	So, bringing me to an MLM, I promise that this is all going to tie together because without the social technology developed by multi-level marketers, specifically in America, kind of banding together and protecting their industry, none of this would be possible.
	Right, so we already talked about the lines being blurred between gig and job regulations.
	Yeah, so I think the MLM pyramid model is taking over the whole system, and I think it's really bad.
	So an MLM, multi-level marketing, or a pyramid scheme, or network marketing, direct selling, network selling, intentionally seeks out a product that is in high demand or popular, right, like jumping on a trend, preferably niche.
	Because even when I was looking up how to estimate a particular influencer creator's net worth and value, how people are estimating those numbers, both to make projections for income and also to To hire influencers for your brand, you need to kind of have like a quotient basically that you measure.
	And so the profitability, the specificity, the popularity of your niche does have like a dollar amount to it.
	It has a multiplier to it.
	If you find the right one at the right time, And that's like fucking luck, man.
	There's a lot of luck that goes into all of this.
	And so there's like luck but also market research, which is expensive.
	So you're either lucky or well-funded or both.
	Right.
	And so then you take this product that you can specifically target to a demographic and basically you can over-inflate the value and then maximum possible profits.
	Right, so that is kind of what we have to look at.
	I would love to dive into the way that retail nightmare and also retail consumerism has kind of taken over everything.
	I would say...
	Well, I can say other stuff, but what I'm going to read is, again, from the New Yorker article from December 4, 2018, Why Are We Suddenly Surrounded by Grift by Nitza Abebe.
	They wrote a really great article.
	I didn't say it until right now.
	I'm sorry.
	I sprung myself on that one.
	So the thing is about griff logic, quote, right?
	It immediately radiates outward by analogy from literal scams to broad systems that merely have the same sensibility as a scam, like what we're talking about, right?
	Selling fake stereo equipment is a classic con.
	You can call the police about it.
	Selling iffy nutritional supplements or tricking people into endless monthly payments On an impulse by rotisserie is a touch safer.
	They'd have to write let, this is the process that you have to do, right?
	So they'd have to write letters to the state attorney general.
	Then you'd have to go like, that's like the best you can do.
	He's going to give a fuck about you.
	Asterisk in that is like barriers to like actually remedying these problems is a huge part of it.
	So clickbait publishers, unaccredited online education, apps that quietly harvest volumes of personal data.
	Shady Amazon dropshippers.
	Patent trolls.
	It's a huge thing.
	These can all be legal, but what difference does it make?
	Once you begin to identify such arrangements as grifts, as we do, you are bound to discover in our baroquely capitalist society that loads of things are essentially grift-shaped.
	And oddball startups, from oddball startups to arcane financial services, they've been around forever, right?
	They begin with a slick appeal and go on to create nothing of concrete value.
	And end like any good bilking with your money in new pockets.
	This line of thinking can pretty obviously be a glib one, which I often fall prey to.
	To say something like, quote, capitalism is a griff, quote, unquote, ...is to express an intuition, not file a detailed indictment.
	That line was really good.
	Grift is capacious.
	In just five characters, it can casually point out the suspect mechanics and empty grasping heart of almost any figure or phenomenon.
	Which I can say we've fallen prey to because I mean shit if you like money is a grift if you really want to get down to it.
	Really so young people look at their paychecks and suspect that their college educations were a grift or at least the student loans were.
	One Twitter skeptic smells grift in All of the business world, another in the artificial scarcity of diamonds, another in all skincare beyond sunscreen and acne medication, hello, another in liberal podcasts, another in quote-unquote everything.
	So that's kind of like saying like, well then, just accusing the deep state of being the problem.
	Basically, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, right?
	That's what we're landing on.
	Yeah, but we're still absolutely forced to do it, right?
	So I thought that that was a really great- I mean, the whole article is really great.
	I don't think I have any more from it, but it's a great, like, it answers the question that you brought up of like, oh, well, everybody's a grifter, you can call anybody a grifter.
	Yeah, because most shit's kind of a grift now.
	And there's a lot of things that we will never see that is completely invisible that turns into a grift.
	So there was a time when prices were regulated and fixed.
	There was an extant basis for calculating profit based on what the thing cost to make.
	Union labor, and I'm speaking for what I know in America, and again, I'm hitting 1,000 overviews.
	So I'm just going to breeze through and do my best.
	Not just worker protections, but operating standards for manufacturing across the board.
	Unions also guaranteed or tried to guarantee the quality of the product itself.
	Manufacturing being local to a country or state ensured stable jobs and allowed the working class to flourish.
	Especially like, you know, I've been thrifting since I was a kid.
	And man, I used to take a lot of things, like Pearl Snap Western shirts, used to take that shit for granted.
	I'd be like, oh, there's so many of these.
	I only want the best one.
	I was an absurd child.
	I knew not what I meant.
	But like, seeing a union label, Like, there was a label that showed your union that made your shirt.
	You had the tag from the brand, and you had a label from the union.
	That means that the union is connected to, specifically, the quality of the product itself.
	People fucking forget about that shit.
	Because manufacturing is batshit crazy now.
	And it's because it was all deregulated.
	So right, so yeah, we had like a happy, good working class for like maybe 25 years max in America, and the rest of it's just been fistfights?
	I don't know.
	It's been a fucking mess.
	And we thought that we earned it when really just like World War II meant we got all the money.
	But we think that we earned it, which is stupid.
	It was just luck.
	The Golden Age!
	Let's return to that, everyone.
	Well, right, but during that time, it actually was at least doing something kind of right and making a middle class and distributing some wealth.
	During that time, there was a ton of government regulation, market control, standards that were set and that were allowed to be set, plus high corporate taxes, like 60%.
	Taxes in general was so much higher.
	Well, especially for the higher echelons of income.
	Oh yeah.
	And there were way fewer financial products that even function as a tax dodge.
	The option wasn't available.
	And you could get a small loan as an individual from the post office.
	So you didn't have these, like, you know, you didn't have predatory lending.
	You didn't have this, like, price gouging at every single fucking corner in your life.
	Like, it's crazy.
	So, and the taxes, somehow, those corporations still managed to, like, thrive and flourish and become international entities while paying those taxes.
	What do you fucking know?
	And that's all the...
	Make America Great Again time, right?
	The issue is not that they didn't make a profit, it's that they didn't make X percentage of a profit.
	I mean, a lot of them were fine with it.
	A lot of them were fine with it.
	They did very fucking well for a long time, one might say.
	But no, no, no, we need to fuck everyone as hard as we possibly can to keep shareholders happy.
	So that's the thing, and I'm going to make the most basic quick and dirty kind of like explanation of how I see
	regulation going. Well, hopefully it also makes sense. So starting, you know, like 70s, even
	like Carter's a little bit to blame for some of these things, but Reagan for the most part kind
	of deregulated most, like just did this kind of mass exodus and deregulation
	through.
	The actor?
	The very same.
	The very same?
	He was a bad president?
	What?
	No.
	Well, I know, I know.
	Shocking, right?
	But he looks so good on the screen!
	Plurals for spring.
	Groundbreaking, right.
	We know this, but we need to know why I'm so mad at him all the time.
	And so, and I mean, y'all had a whole other set of problems, and it's like somehow they melded together.
	We had our Alex Jones fault.
	Bad fucking deal, right?
	So, if you deregulate, Because, like, Reagan was, like, basically, like, regulations were communism and un-American, so he could just sail through.
	And it's not just Reagan, it's his whole administration, fucking shitbirds all the way down, total monsters, just...
	Reeling back, basically like we had just gotten to a point that could maybe look halfway decent for the most Americans.
	And as soon as we even got close, boy, it just rolled back like one of those old Roman shades in a cartoon.
	And so you've got this regulation issue that is just stripping regulations, those regulations that were put in place to protect unions, to protect quality, to protect jobs.
	And so those were all just ripped away and also all of the government regulatory bodies were gutted, right?
	So, and instead, When you don't have a regulatory body at the start of your manufacturing process or whatever you're going to do to get the finished product, you need a regulatory body that needs to sign off in the beginning so you can open your doors.
	Or to keep your doors open, right?
	If you take that regulation away, Then your only options are a complaint system or litigation.
	So instead of there being a standard that is held at the top, you have manufacturers increasingly just getting real creative with their cost-cutting measures and just taking a bit here and a bit there and a bit here and a bit there, exploiting and growing those loopholes.
	Until it gets to the consumer, and the consumer has to identify the problem, be able to prove it in court, or get enough people that have the same problem to prove it in court, or go to your governing body.
	You know, your local, your alderman, your, again, like your attorney general, they have to put you at the top of the list and give enough of a shit.
	There has to be like a financial incentive to be able to, you know, like blow the whistle on shitty manufacturing, shitty whatever.
	And that is Obviously exponentially more difficult to do and to get through.
	And what I lived through as a child and young adult was tort reform and the absolute vehement demonization of lawyers.
	Anything legal, any legal anything.
	And listen, lawyers are not a pack of saints by any stretch of the imagination.
	But if they're like, we're going to take the regulation away, and then we're going to demonize the only option you have for any kind of political, like any consumer protections, any... What's the word?
	Fuck.
	Accountability.
	Any accountability whatsoever.
	And also, all those governing bodies are defunded.
	And this is exactly what happened with the Federal Trade Commission trying to basically amway the UR-MLM, the UR, like, pyramid scheme, basically.
	Was in this fight with the FTC.
	And the reason that they could fight so effectively was because they had more money than God.
	They had all the money in the world.
	They bought all the politicians.
	Reagan, Bush, Clinton, other Bush for sure would Speak at their annual, you know, like they would get paid to speak at like Amway conferences and Herbalife.
	Like they were in the pocket.
	Those presidents Democrat or Republican, we're in the pocket of, like, one of the most predatory pyramid schemes that America has ever produced.
	And it is far-right conservative.
	It is fundamentalist Christian or Mormon.
	It's, like, fundamentalist, like, religious.
	And they Basically beat the FTC in one, which is why MLM is what we say now instead of Pyramid Scheme because it was illegal for a number of years to even accuse someone of having a pyramid scheme because of like the, I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm kind of like, I'm, I'm, I'm truncating a vast story and the dream podcast is incredible.
	They really outline it.
	Yeah.
	But like, basically you're taking all these regulations and then Taking away the protection at the top and then demonizing and then taking away the protection at the bottom and everything in between.
	So that is where we are.
	Like, that's basically how we've ended up in the situation that we are right now.
	And pyramid schemes are uniquely poised, and they are extremely nimble in the market, to take advantage of pennies-on-the-dollar manufacturing standards that we live with today, and are so quick and so early to adopt them across the board.
	Now, MLMs, or peer-to-peer selling, door-to-network selling, door-to-door cottage industries, Weren't always purely evil.
	They served the needs of customers, like people who needed stuff, and met them where they were to get it.
	If you were a minority, if you were a woman that was home all day, a door-to-door salesman... Everyone had an Avon lady, right?
	That was a thing?
	Well, Avon's.
	We're gonna go before that.
	Is that a separate- Avon's also bad.
	Avon's, like, also OG bad, but- Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So, the Smithsonian did a really great article.
	I'm gonna try to, like, speed through it also, because I think a lot of people are- I feel like people know about this, but maybe not.
	So March 23rd, 2020, the Sisonian Online, an article, who wrote that?
	I couldn't find it.
	Right.
	How Madam CJ Walker used beauty products to create opportunities for African-American women, name of the thing.
	Right.
	So Madam CJ Walker, And this is honestly the coolest- this is like a cool thing I'm proud of to have happen in America.
	This is like the ideal cool thing.
	Much like a lot of other American ideas, this is one really cool thing that happened and everything after was trash.
	So, Madame C.J.
	Walker became one of the most successful African American entrepreneurs of the early 20th century by making a line of extremely popular hair care and beauty products for African Americans.
	Because it wasn't there previously.
	It just isn't there.
	They're not going to be served, right?
	She also helped other women succeed as an educator and philanthropist.
	And this is all legit.
	So in 1867, When it was good, I'm talking like a while back, way before AI, right?
	So Walker was born Sarah Breedlove.
	She was the first child in her family born into freedom.
	She was orphaned at age seven and moved to Vicksburg, Mississippi, of course.
	She married Moses McWilliams in 1882, and they went on to have a daughter, Alila.
	That's cute.
	So Moses didn't make it very long, and so Madam C.J.
	Walker worked as a laundress and other jobs to make ends meet, and she lived in relative poverty for many years, as one does.
	So when she began to struggle with hair issues in the 1890s, Walker started creating treatments by mixing items from her local drugstore.
	She trained at Poro College, Cool.
	Which focused on helping African-American women learn about black hair and skin care and create their own beauty care businesses.
	Walker then worked as a sales agent for Annie Turnbow Malone, who founded Poirot College.
	Cool.
	All right.
	So in 1906, she started her own company using the Walker Method to sell hair care products door-to-door in the South.
	Madam T.J.
	Walker was a common name used by businesswomen at the time.
	So she wasn't a lady of the evening's boss.
	That was just the name that you get because it's fancy.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So based on her success with the Walker Method, Walker soon opened a factory and beauty school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in 1908.
	She then traveled through Central America and the Caribbean to sell products.
	I didn't know that.
	Shit.
	Taking her company international.
	In 1916, she purchased a townhome in Harlem, New York.
	Her home included a beauty parlor, beauty school, and living quarters.
	Beyond teaching young women about the beauty industry so they could start as careers,
	okay so beyond teaching young women, all right the link messed it up, about the beauty industry,
	they could also start careers as Walker sales agents.
	Walker also donated money to educational and social service institutions dedicated to serving
	African Americans.
	She was aware of the struggles of living in poverty as a woman and young mother in the South.
	Keep you grounded, for sure.
	Her giving focused on helping African-Americans overcome racist policies and practices and achieve full citizenship.
	When she passed away in 1919, Walker was reputed to be an early African-American woman millionaire.
	So!
	We're going to start with the good example.
	That's an amazing example, and being able to be peer-to-peer or door-to-door, or on social media, in Facebook groups, that can allow you access to people that also require access, right?
	It's not just But also, I know a number of our listeners have also listened to the Dream Podcast, which I cannot recommend season one enough.
	It's fantastic and it's all about MLMs.
	I think they talk about her too.
	I think that's where I heard about it.
	Maybe not.
	I don't know.
	I watch a lot of PBS.
	Can't always remember.
	But the real challenge with like a pyramid scheme or like MLM is the guy, I think it was a guy that figured out Tupperware, also figured out that you could pay women way less or nothing.
	You could severely curtail a woman's value, and something that is qualified as woman's work is... It was a big thing in Tupperware, wasn't it?
	Well, yeah, and I mean, that was still like...
	You know, I feel like you had the grandma that had Tupperware and you had a grandma that was like, I have a Cool Whip container.
	How dare you make me pay for Tupperware?
	And to be fair, I mean, listen, if you find Tupperware at a thrift store, it is pretty great.
	Definitely get it.
	Because it was very high quality, which again, this is now the quality is not the thing.
	There was a degree of like, you could rely on quality products.
	There was a person that would show it to you and sell it to you and like, A salesman, because they were just regular old door-to-door salesmen.
	They were way more like salesmen and catalogs, and they just had to be good, or else people wouldn't buy them.
	But we have reached the time of retail and shitification.
	We are in full and shitification.
	It's a term that actually that Cory Doctorow, as a journalist and a writer, Has used a lot, coined, I think, is where I could make a number of daily podcasts several hours long about what has happened to retail manufacturing, generally.
	It's basically bad at every possible level.
	Again, that deregulation.
	Spoiler alert, it's not good.
	It's fucking bad at every possible level.
	And I am very tempted to go into that more.
	Maybe sometime later, I don't know.
	Because with the shitification of retail and the global expansion of... It's basically you can squeeze the...
	When when all these pieces are disparate instead of having a labor union which protects your factory and then works with the company and the company has its vested interest in like controlling its own properties and its own.
	What's the word?
	It's a stream where it gets its product from everything.
	There's way more control.
	But now we don't have that anymore.
	We have just-in-time production, which, as we found out during COVID, doesn't fucking work out great.
	And actually, Clothes Horse is a really great podcast and Instagram account to follow.
	She covers a lot of the fast fashion.
	And I think people are finally kind of familiar with how bad fast fashion is.
	It's easy to use the word fast fashion, but retail and shitification has hit every single product we buy.
	Everything that like, you know, you can squeeze every link in the supply chain.
	So from the products that are, you know, there is a There is kind of an African pandemic, but I believe, let's see, in the Sudan right now, there's mining for an element of cobalt that's going to be used in anything that's got a little computer in it.
	There's like child labor, slave labor, abuse, neglect, assault, SA otherwise beatings just people that are living in nightmarish conditions and getting next to nothing because we don't because they can basically because all the regulations are gone so.
	It started by like, you know, like NAFTA, just kind of like everything moving to Mexico.
	And then it just really like exploded from there.
	But it was always by degrees.
	So you have these little, you know, like nipping away at the stability in the supply chain and the continuity in the supply chain.
	And a lot of that is that's how like Kraft Foods can also own a Uh, like cable?
	Channel like, you know, they can have like entertainment, like what does Kraft Foods know about making TV shows?
	But because you have all these interconnected supply chains, you can kind of make the excuse of like, well, we need all this stuff to run our company.
	So you can't antitrust us government.
	Also, we made sure that the resources to antitrust anybody is virtually non-existent.
	Gone.
	Yeah, right.
	So.
	You've got the workers that are, I mean, what has happened to the cotton growing industry in India specifically is absolutely hideous and horrific.
	There are farmers that are like, that are unaliving themselves in droves in the summer whenever something goes wrong with their crops.
	It's an absolute nightmare.
	That's just the supply stuff.
	And then we get to the manufacturing.
	Again, women's work.
	I mean, so there's another gigantic protest happening right now in WorkStop, which is happening in Bangladesh, and nobody, I haven't seen anybody talking about it.
	That's where your stuff is made, and people do it.
	There's not machines that can make your clothes.
	Your clothes, I think, it's a really great example, but there's a further, you know, like there's more It goes beyond just fast fashion.
	I think of people who are like, oh, I don't shop at H&M.
	I don't shop at Forever 21, so I'm not contributing to the problem.
	Oh my god, that's so not true.
	And it's unavoidable.
	And I know it sounds like it's very overwhelming and shitty, but it's just the truth, right?
	So yeah, so workers are exploited.
	Again, slave labor.
	I think people don't really know that Basically, big fast fashion brands will make an order of, you know, like they'll talk to their factories and their suppliers, and they'll make an order.
	And these are like gigantic amounts of clothing, literally a mountain of clothes.
	And they're like, I want this yellow top because that's what I can.
	And they skip details, they cut down on details.
	We know this because we've been buying clothing as adults, right?
	Clothes are shitty now.
	And they'll skip fit checks.
	Basically, fashion itself, like the floppy fashion, the stretchy fabrics of it all, those have been driven by Cost-cutting.
	It has nothing to do with style or innovation of fashion.
	They're making clothes as cheaply as possible and they're calling it a trend.
	Here's what's crazy, I remember vividly the Kathy Gifford, I think it was like 19- yeah, alright, so on Dateline, June 4th, 1996, her sweatshop scandal broke.
	For like Kathy, you know, Kathy Lee Gifford, who was on with Regis in the morning.
	I honestly just remember the South Park episode, but do carry on.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Well, but like, so there was a sweatshop scandal and instead of remedying the problem in our supply chain, we just made that the supply chain.
	No major corporation can guarantee that they're like, I mean, they try and there are certainly companies out there that are doing their best and they are working really hard, but they're like, It is almost impossible to ensure that there is no slave labor in your entire supply chain, from sourcing materials to manufacturing to shipping, everything.
	I mean, it's down to the point where, like, people, like, trucking companies are squeezing, like, that used to be, like, trucking used to be a reliable job in my entire life.
	Not anymore, because it has been gigafied.
	Everything has been gigafied.
	So, With this and shitification.
	Most things that you are buying have no connection or like the price that you pay has little to nothing to do with what it costs the company and everything to do with what they can get you to pay for it.
	Shit is so cheap.
	It's honestly crazy.
	Like I can't even like pennies on the dollar literally is the case.
	And so that's kind of what we're Yep, that's kind of where we're at.
	So, to a degree, all of retail is using that MLM model of inflating a value and then using all them extra profits.
	And what I see, and I can't help but make the connection, That, you know, companies like Uber, the popular narrative is that they've not been profitable for like, what, 10 years or something, even though this is like revolutionary company or whatever.
	And it's like such a big deal.
	And it's so great if you ask, you know, Silicon Valley guys, but they haven't been profitable.
	I think they were.
	I think they were just compensating themselves very generously.
	That would cut into how profitable it looks on paper.
	Yeah, they say the same of Spotify.
	And Disney.
	I mean, like, looking at what they are refusing to do, as far as like, yeah, exactly that.
	Yes.
	And I think there is a whole conversation about the economy that is fucking Completely, like, detached from reality.
	It feels a lot like, uh, movie accounting, you know, where, uh, where, like, on paper they somehow make it look like they didn't make a profit or whatever, or, like, it costs, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to make this thing, whereas actually, no, it fucking didn't.
	Yeah, right?
	Exactly that.
	It's a way of hiding the money.
	That specifically is a famous example, but it applies across the board to other businesses.
	Other businesses can do the same thing and do do the same thing.
	The thing is, is like technology and globalization has allowed them to do it.
	So I made another very sophisticated globalist image, right?
	Where we have kind of like so we know capitalism is like always a pyramid right so the normal job.
	Where you got people the top the to make a lot of money but then there's also the prices for like legal and operating costs and then wage employees the bottom or at least a part of this.
	So I'm going to be using the idea of the pyramid as like, you know, this is a big long pyramid with a lot of steps and people getting paid and people paying for things.
	But MLMs are pretty much just a squat little pyramid with like CEOs and the C-suite at the top and then literally everything else.
	The only priority Is as cheap as possible.
	Oh right, that's what I was going to say.
	So fast fashion companies can make these huge orders and the factory will make the thing and they'll just cancel the order if they don't want it.
	They'll just cancel it.
	No one gets paid.
	No worker gets paid.
	The factory doesn't get paid, and it's such a high-volume, fast, like, there aren't seasons of fashion anymore.
	That is a new thing!
	I mean, like, there's still, like, there's still, you know, like, spring and fall fashion shows?
	There are no seasons.
	There's still high fashion, yeah, but it's not, you know.
	I mean, kinda?
	It's, it's even, it's just, like, so, you know, it's, it's so detached from reality So how I consider to be the MLM model is just big pile of profits at the top and then just sort out the bullshit between everybody else at the bottom.
	Globalization has allowed this type of model to apply across the board.
	So I think, I will make the argument, all of social media is an MLM, right?
	Is a pyramid scheme.
	Because you have creators, like you've got your pyramid of like, also you are the commodity, right?
	So Now, a content creator is a legitimate job.
	It's a legitimate business.
	People absolutely do the work and they deserve to be paid for their work.
	So I'm not saying content creation in general.
	I do think people can still be kind of shitty about content creators making any money.
	Even if you think about the podcasts that we talk about that are really big that we like.
	It can seem like a big price tag in their Patreon.
	Their monthly earnings can seem pretty meaty.
	But we aren't factoring in the years where they were scraping by, maybe in debt, to be able to make the thing.
	And whenever maybe their popularity wanes, if you're smart, You kind of stretch that out, that yearly lump sum or monthly lump sum can look big, but it's not if you actually kind of think about how much work it takes to make content and how much you have to invest at the outset.
	I mean, to circle back to your point about it's not just money that people are investing, it's time.
	I've always found it really important to try and put an actual monetary value on my time.
	Because it helps remind me that my time is valuable, and the big distinction there is that as an investment kind of aspect, time I cannot get a return on.
	That is not coming back.
	I'm putting that in, I do not ever get any more time out of the thing.
	That's true, yeah.
	Ever.
	Right.
	That's never going to happen unless I start putting my time somehow into life-preserving technology, which is Sadly, not a thing that exists.
	Yes, exactly.
	So, you know, for me, I try to consider my kind of existence in that kind of frame of, at the very least, like, okay, if I'm going to spend X amount of my time doing this thing, that would be this amount of, I don't know, the national minimum wage, right?
	Which, you know, again, is fuck all, but okay, let's still kind of run it with that.
	I'm like, okay, is that worth me doing this thing?
	You know, is that actually worth it?
	Or should I, you know, in some cases it's like, you know, is it worth me doing this thing or is it worth me just hiring someone for this cost and actually saving myself all of these hours?
	Exactly.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So it's, yeah, it's that kind of thinking.
	But yeah, the time The time you never get back.
	And equally, when you consider our hours put into a podcast, much like we do, it's a lot of hours on the back end to make the show.
	Oh yeah.
	And so, yeah, if you kind of factor in kind of the start of, like, in business terms, just not making a profit for, I don't know, a year and a half, two years or whatever, however long it takes, longer in some cases, you know, then... And what is profit anyway?
	Like, that's the thing.
	What is profit anyway?
	I mean, hourly, like, that's so hard to quantify.
	Right.
	So yeah, yes, absolutely.
	And I think that's a really great point.
	And I do want to make that abundantly clear, especially if you've only ever worked in a wage job.
	Boy, I think it's hard to conceive of.
	And I think most people, I think rightfully, don't want to touch the gig life with a 10-foot pole.
	But a lot of people are out there, like me, like you, that are Making it work kind of any way they can and it's very, it's lonely and it's hard.
	And so I think that even just like with social media, I feel like using social media as this kind of like example of a wider problem because everything's been in shitified.
	Everything has been kind of devalued because we are the commodity.
	So never forget that like you are on a free app because you're the, you're the thing being sold.
	Your thing being sold to your data is being sold.
	So we are the product.
	So then eyeballs means money for somebody.
	Um, and so, and also like, yes, it is accessible to everyone, but what does access really mean?
	I mean, we're talking about like money to market, curate, buy ads, gather data, you know, like I didn't have to compete with Adidas.
	And, you know, like, whenever I was making stuff coming up.
	And now I'm on social media, so I do.
	I absolutely do.
	Like, I have to compete with every... And even, you know, making stuff.
	I don't have one boss.
	I have a hundred.
	Like, it's not this, like, freedom promise that people pitch it to be.
	And I just... I want to draw that parallel between, like, MLM and affiliate marketing because Now we're getting into the griftosphere.
	This is how- because you've got big grifter- the grafters, right, have created this market system that allow grifters to Extract wealth and to exploit pennies on the dollar manufacturing so then they can now take their money and run.
	And you used to be able to tell the Federal Trade Commission, hey, Apple's making something fucked up.
	And they're like, well, we'll go talk to Apple.
	You hear tell.
	I'm going to let them know.
	And now, how many manufacturers aren't just off-brand entirely, have no, like, is a fly-by-night thing, it might be good, it might be bad, and you're just kind of gambling.
	All these companies are like, they're adding, you know, and they add free shipping, free returns, it's not a service to you, it's they're making up for their shitty products.
	And those shitty products, the amount of money being made by MLMs has always been insane.
	And the problem that was able to be tackled from a legal standpoint was all these types of selling, entrepreneurial blah blah blah.
	Basically, the companies themselves claimed that they had all these little businesses, but really...
	At best, 90% of anyone in the downline, which is what you call somebody that's like, you know, is a salesman on your team of this company.
	Further down the line from you, yes.
	Downline, right?
	Is all of the registered sellers or whatever, like all of your associates.
	At best, 90% never turn a profit.
	And that's just never turn a profit.
	Not going to debt by buying startup, like, you know, having your startup fees, buying your product that you don't sell.
	Up to 99%, depending on the company you're talking about.
	So this, literally this one teeny tiny 1% at the top is making boo-coo bucks because someone's buying the product and it's the, it's supposed to be, it's the sellers.
	So they're paying this like huge markup on these like, I also feel like I have identified, you know, you can look at content trends, you can look at shopping trends generally, you can look at the ads that you get pushed on a given day on social media to see what's really cheap to produce.
	And so you've got this whole idea, like, again, this kind of system, people like Russell would not be able to make the amount of money they make in any way.
	So we've got this without this, like, super cheap... If regulation existed.
	Right.
	This, like, super cheap manufacturing structure.
	So... I do just want to hit on briefly the point you made about not having to compete with Adidas, and now you do.
	This is exactly the same thing with the music industry and streaming.
	It was not that long ago, the things you had to compete with were, you know, a person's CD collection or record collection and the radio.
	Those are the things you had to compete with.
	Now, now you have to compete with the entire history of recorded music.
	Best of luck.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Find a niche!
	I now have to compete with Led Zeppelin.
	I have to compete with the literal best in history.
	Plus all of the moneyed interest being pushed and everything else by record labels.
	Well, and when you win that competition...
	The amount of money that Spotify will give you is so abysmal.
	Oh yeah, oh yeah.
	When it didn't used to be that way.
	That's it, that's it.
	Didn't used to be that way.
	Even if you're on top, it's, you know, 0.0007 per stream or whatever pennies per stream.
	Oh my god, this is just insane.
	Almost like the record company's own Spotify, to a degree.
	No shit.
	I know.
	Anyway, that's a grift deal.
	But also, that's antitrust.
	Destroying an antitrust infrastructure to break up monopolies.
	Oh my god.
	To even think about... Also, MCI.
	That whole thing happened whenever I was in AT&T.
	Breaking up telephone monopolies was a thing in my cultural memory.
	And again, quaint.
	Adorable.
	Wow.
	Yeah, right, by today's standards.
	Holy shit, right?
	So, what I've kind of identified as four separate, like, aspects of the grift.
	The grift that can also look normal, it can also be just a business, but it's easy to get a grift in there edgewise.
	Affiliate marketing, not just in MLM, but usually the same products.
	Social media, I feel like I've made a decent argument, is basically a pyramid scheme.
	An investment scheme.
	And then so event organization for profit, which I think we'll touch on a little more.
	And that's more of, so right, so you have kind of two tracks.
	That grifters can pursue to make money, a little or a lot.
	And there's like a grifter, like grifter, there's like an influencer track, which is more of like a grassroots kind of like, you know, what a content creator would do versus like a corporate track or like an investor track of VC firm, you know, like where you're going to get your money from track.
	So you have kind of those two different lines. So that's kind of why I want to connect MLMs and that kind of like
	pyramid scheme kind of attitude.
	Because basically, I think I've said it before on the show, MLMs require, and this is a description again from The Dream, there's a gal that was selling hideous purses that are also Christian somehow, and it's nuts.
	And the way that the woman who was a Cecil Seller described it was, you have to keep a bathtub full of water, but the The plug is out, and it's always draining.
	So the plug is open, you're always draining, so you need to keep pouring water into the tub to keep the level high.
	If I remember correctly, she was viewing that as a positive, wasn't she?
	She sure was!
	She was like, oh yeah, this is great!
	Yeah, you gotta keep a bathtub full!
	It's how you do it!
	It's how you succeed!
	Okay.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Never mind where all those purses go when people don't want them anymore because they're trash.
	That's not entirely horrifying.
	Yeah, right.
	I can't even touch on the fucking industrial waste fucking person.
	Oh god, don't even get into the environment.
	I know.
	I know.
	I can't.
	I know.
	No time.
	Right.
	So yeah, we got to move.
	So right.
	So affiliate marketing, I think, is very similar.
	And like dropshipping, I would love, again, to just fucking heave into that whole nightmare But basically what I explained as far as the inshittification through the marketing system and through the manufacturing system is kind of what we're talking about.
	Because it's just every fucking where.
	Every fucking where.
	And there are so many little ways to hide money in little places and crevices in that stream for where the profits are going.
	That I mean it's I don't know it's honestly it's such a it's such a bummer and a drag because they're on the cutting edge of scamming and they always have been and so right so especially like with affiliate marketing and affiliate marketing is like when Russell gives you a code you know go get 15% off or 20% off There may also be... I think it's less common now, but there's also... Basically, you can start... If an MLM that maybe doesn't look like an MLM to you is advertised with a content creator, or whoever is endorsing and then you use their code, it's kind of a downline.
	It's like having this temporary downline.
	They make a profit, yeah.
	Right.
	Or if you recruit people for your MLM that doesn't really look like an MLM, then that's...
	You got um you know you have like massive footprint content creators that have a massive downline and they're always trying to pour into the tub now.
	And i think that merch he oh ok so merch.
	Again, I could go on for hours about merch.
	I won't.
	I want to.
	I won't.
	Because merch is a thing that, you know, we would like to do as a podcast.
	I make stuff!
	Obviously I want to make stuff for you guys!
	It sounds really fun and exciting.
	I would love to be able to do it and I'm going to do it.
	We're working on it.
	We've got a lot going on.
	A lot of irons in the fire.
	But...
	There's some weird-ass bullshit, like, you know, print-on-demand to me, this is my opinion, is a fucking scam.
	Like, it's, uh, basically, for print-on-demand, what you are sold is no upfront costs.
	Even though it does still take you time and energy to design the thing and then make sure it looks good or whatever.
	I've also ordered print-on-demand stuff from accounts that are awesome, that I love, and then it shows up and it couldn't be worse or more wrong.
	You know, like the print is an inch to the right.
	So it looks your body looks crazy from having this image on it's nuts and and and then you have to go back to this you know like basically the sheer volume like they're relying on you to you know people to not open the present so you can't return it or you know like There's all this kind of rent-seeking behavior of monthly charges or basically rent-seeking and accidentally making money off of something.
	I was like, oh, oops, well, I guess it's not great.
	It's not what I ordered, but it's close enough.
	Or I missed the return window.
	Or I didn't want to pay for shipping returns back.
	I thought it was free.
	I misunderstood some fine print.
	And they're keeping your money.
	Feed such a high volume of people through that tub that, like, I don't want to do that to our listeners, literally ever.
	I live, listen, the snores, the snores of an incredibly talented screen printer keep me awake or wake me up once a day.
	I'm going, we're going to make cool shit and it's going to take a minute.
	But like, I want to make sure that we can source Good shirts that feel good to wear, that are also as ethical as we possibly can get them.
	I mean, that kind of matters a lot, especially if they can be all cotton.
	That's better for folks with sensitivities.
	And it's biodegradable.
	I mean, there's a lot of considerations that you do not have control over in print-on-demand.
	And print-on-demand is one of those things that, like, You can't make a lot of money.
	You can't fund an operation with a couple of dedicated listeners that care and like your thing.
	You need a high volume.
	I think I figured out like, what was it like for postcards?
	I did some comparison on like a print-on-demand site.
	And selling 15 postcards that I make myself or get printed myself even versus like a hundred through their print-on-demand service is how I it's like the same profit.
	So instead of just feeding all y'all to a meat grinder with some bullshit, I'd much rather make something cool and interesting and high quality so you want to use it.
	I've also seen- I'm in thrift stores all the fucking time.
	I see- I saw- I told you the other day, like, uh, whenever we were in Texas, I saw a TimCast.
	It's a Tim Pool fucking, like, fundraising shirt.
	Right?
	Like on the rack.
	Like the amount of shirts that are obviously just a fundraiser to get your money and then skedaddle is outrageous.
	I'm not trying to contribute waste like that.
	And I know that I'm very obstinate in my estimations, but it's also like a moral and ethical consideration I have to make and that we make as human beings.
	I know that we're both like that.
	It's just the way it is.
	Yeah, yeah, and I can hear in the background that Chicago is mad about the situation, too.
	Oh, something's on fire!
	Also, there's old people.
	They need help sometimes.
	What are you gonna do?
	It's not all crime, right?
	Also, right, so the other thing about affiliate marketing is like getting you to sign up, you know, like give us your email for 15% off, like pop-ups, that kind of thing.
	We have to also remember That stuff is... Okay, shit is cheap because someone didn't get paid, which is a close horse.
	Like, Amanda at Close Horse makes a really great... Like, she drives at point homes.
	If it's cheap, someone didn't get paid.
	That's the best case scenario.
	Like, usually it's a lot worse.
	The implications of the manufacturing stream is pretty bad.
	Free is usually not free.
	It's just it's incredibly cheap, and then they stick you with... If you just pay shipping, baby, that's not free.
	You just bought a thing that's cheap.
	Data mining is the, you are the product being sold for that 15% off.
	Yeah, that's a common one.
	Right.
	That's a common one.
	It's data mining, and I wanted to get into the whole thing.
	Honestly, like, non-profit and fundraising, we don't even have time to get into, and it's a whole other thing.
	And also, it doesn't really have a lot to do with Russell, as I can tell, right?
	So, but... We'll see about the status of the Stay Free Foundation, won't we?
	I'm very curious, frankly, because I'm dubious of anybody being like, I'm going to start a foundation.
	Did you check to see if there's a foundation already?
	No?
	Well, I think you want to hide some money.
	So, as far as what is going to bring a big profit in, and this kind of level can be exploited.
	There are a number of things like.
	That you can sell little bits and then they get your data right.
	So data mining there was a guy in the 60s.
	There was like a conservative newsletter guy like Republican newsletter like Bircher guy in the 60s that basically like May went into was a consultant went into business for himself and he would go in and there was a list.
	In a regulatory body office that was public domain, you could go in and see lists of donors for whoever.
	He was looking for Republicans.
	He was looking for Republican donors over $50 were all on this list.
	He basically was an entrepreneurial spirit.
	I don't even remember what business that the article said he was doing to get access to these kind of archival White House records or Congress or whatever, congressional records probably, where all these voters were.
	Their information, everything about them basically.
	Or like a mailing list.
	So you're talking about physical addresses and phone numbers at the time.
	So he would go in and just start furiously copying down.
	He couldn't take the records out, but he furiously copied down as many as he could.
	And he kept going back until a bureaucrat was like, I don't think you're supposed to do this.
	Oh no.
	But he already had like 12,000, like 13,000 people on this mailing list.
	This is like the conservative mailing list.
	The like, the apocryphal fabled mailing list.
	So you have to understand, again, we're following the money.
	So like, Wars have been won and fought and lost over this mailing list.
	It's what built Fox, it's what built Rush Limbaugh, everything.
	This mailing list of people that they knew were conservative and they had money to spend.
	That made so much money.
	That grew the donor base itself of the Republican Party and specifically of extreme conservatism.
	You combine that with churches, boy, you got money.
	Money, money, money, money, money.
	So if you think about, right, so that like first kind of, again, unethical, maybe not illegal at the time.
	You basically, like, dox all these people, too.
	And selling that mailing list in and of itself?
	Plus, he had a newsletter that was advertising bullshit all the time.
	I know for a fact my stepdad was on that mailing list, because we got insane shit sent to our house all the time when I was growing up.
	Cool.
	Yeah, right?
	A real birch-y person.
	And that's also why I got very concerned about Russell's follower count kind of going through the roof whenever all the news broke, because I'm like, oh no, that's the mailing list.
	You've got marks.
	You've got suckers that are willing to be manipulated.
	He's got plenty of those.
	And victimized, right?
	With that list, with those people, he has this targeted audience.
	What I did find out is – because it seems like all these big influencer deals, that kind of thing, it seems like they would be so – it sounds cost-prohibitive to you and me, but affiliate marketing and Influencers are so... it's so cheap compared to what like a commercial or what ads would cost.
	So how pricing basically works and what I kind of want to explain a little bit is and this is kind of what's told to you whenever you make stuff.
	I'm sure you can attest to this as well, Bryce.
	So, time plus material is your cost.
	This is how we calculate prices as kind of a loose rule of thumb, or how we're supposed to.
	Cost times two, wholesale price.
	Wholesale times two, retail price.
	That's the simple, you know, if you have a wholesale order, then that's guaranteed income and you can afford to trade your effort and time selling something for that wholesale discount.
	That makes sense.
	A wholesale discount is 50% or more, not 15%, not 20%.
	Those are the kind of discounts, like the discount code that Russell is giving you for Brickhouse Nutrition or Field of Greens, 15%, 20% off, that's not a discount.
	They're making the stuff expecting at least that much of a discount.
	That's how they're calculating their profits at the end of the day.
	They're not expecting you to pay full price.
	It's honestly it's like that that is a sweet summer child version of how modern pricing works.
	It's totally different now.
	So let's see.
	So let's think about...
	What you can sell for a very high profit margin.
	Books.
	That's been a thing for a long time.
	Books are incredibly cheap to make and they're incredibly lucrative because a lot of people want to buy them and read them.
	So books plus tourist press, sales, residuals.
	Also it's like you can sell a lot over time.
	Clothing, like I explained, like t-shirt stickers, masks got so huge because they're so cheap to make if you're doing it on an industrial level.
	I made them by hand and it was really hard.
	Right, so pins, hats, all that kind of thing.
	And they don't expect you to like it or wear it a lot.
	That kind of used to be the thing is like if you like merch, wearable merch used to be is not so much a thing anymore.
	Because I think there was a time where advertising for a person, like if you buy an Alex Jones Infowars shirt and a sticker, you're going to show that off, you're going to have it on your truck, and you're advertising for that company to the Guinness and the foam deal.
	You're advertising for that company when you wear their thing.
	And that is a form of advertising but it's so much cheaper to just sell nothing.
	It really is and I think they figured that out.
	But what I'm more and more concerned about all the time is how I see that like personal care products and supplements are what is being pushed now because I do think that like A lot of points are made about how the economy has kind of like shifted since the 2008 crash.
	And again, Amanda, the Clothes Horse podcast, so she worked for a lot of like fashion brands and then kind of had a change of heart and is now doing this podcast and exposing the fashion industry, which I think is a cool move.
	I think it's really great.
	But she can speak to, she has a ton of experience she can speak to.
	And she worked for, I believe she worked for Nasty Gal, the online clothing retailer, in 2008, and so she watched basically how her company started squeezing every single step of the supply chain.
	Luxuries that people would spend their silly money on even used to be Beanie Babies or Franklin Mint Plates or, you know, the rotisserie cooker.
	And now what we see in the affiliate marketing, the subscription model, all that is like personal care stuff.
	Like, it's not a jet ski, it's soap.
	Deodorant.
	You know, like, and this is stuff that's fucking cheap to make.
	And they can put, oh boy, any price they want!
	It's nuts!
	Like, the markup is insane and I'm sorry, I hate to break it to you, none of the stuff works.
	It's just, it's all smoke and mirrors.
	From Pantene to Neutrogena and everything else.
	I mean, like what that quote earlier is like, beyond sunscreen and acne medication, It's really like, the dubious claims, like the dubious health claims with supplements, if there is an indication that a study finds, more often than not, it's like the study itself is self-reported and not particularly fastidious.
	And then on top of that, the changes may be minimal.
	Which might just be selection bias or, you know, like someone's being tested.
	So like, yeah, I think my skin feels a little better.
	I don't know.
	Empires are being built on this.
	Also, huge prison labor source.
	It's a huge, like, customer of prison labor in America.
	Oh, you mean modern slavery.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Like Neutrogena, Suave, like, Idaho Potatoes, like there's so much prison labor that is going into your like skincare routine and it's terrifying.
	And supplements.
	I do want to tell a fun little story that is absolutely shocking as an example to apply on a, I mean this is an extreme example but it's also crazy, for like this wider kind of like the way that influencers can address this, can weaponize this perfect confluence of social media and cheap
	Product.
	Cheap to make.
	It even might be nice.
	A lot of makeup is nice, but makeup has been a huge influencer thing.
	So Jeffree Star, right?
	We know all about Jeffree Star.
	Myspace famous.
	Has been famous for a long time, basically to being Jeffree Star.
	And the Dramageddon moment.
	There was this whole kind of explosion with all these makeup creators and influencers.
	Legitimately, I have friends that love certain lipsticks from Jeffree Star.
	They were so great.
	I've liked them myself.
	I mean, I'm not a makeup-er at all.
	And actually, that doesn't limit people from benefiting from makeup sales.
	But right, so basically, this whole accusation Nesting doll blew up into what is known as dramageddon.
	There was a lot of accusations being leveled at different influencers to call them out and take them down and cancel and blah, blah, blah.
	And so, and basically, like, Jeffree Star, like, made a shady, like, side eye in, like, one Snapchat, and that was enough to, like, mobilize.
	I mean, they'd already been, you know, like, pitting all these fans against each other, but, like, his fans, like, were rabid.
	And just an absolute explosion, right?
	And just kind of attacking all these people.
	And so basically, it culminated in Jeffree Star and Shane Dawson, not a makeup person, not a makeup wearer, just the biggest content creator on YouTube, basically, at the time.
	They had joined forces.
	That was part of the drama.
	And then as all this dramageddon was happening, It's so amazing to me.
	Jeffree Star put out two eyeshadow palettes with which like the markup on these motherfuckers is completely insane.
	We're talking about like, costing $5 to make and costing 80 bucks to buy.
	Like, that's crazy.
	That's too much.
	Two eyeshadow palettes.
	That one named Controversy and one named Conspiracy.
	And it was Jeffree Star X Shane Dawson.
	So that whenever, while this is all happening, if you Google Jeffree Star Conspiracy or Jeffree Star Controversy came up.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Then it would come up.
	That's genius.
	It's kind of the most brilliant, evil, genius thing I've ever heard of in my life.
	That's Bond villain shit, right?
	Bond villain wishes!
	Jeffree Star would never leave the hero in a room unattended, regardless of how many laser sharks they have.
	No monologuing, no fucking lasers, just like, bam, you're dead.
	That would be it.
	Would you like to know how much revenue they made from those two pallets?
	Oh, I bet a fortune how much.
	Thirty five million dollars.
	Very nice.
	I mean, your take home is maybe eight after production costs and reinvestment and shit for each of them.
	The main thing is you've you've covered up everything and made a massive profit off of it.
	I hope that that illustrates.
	Honestly, it's like so wild.
	I hope that illustrates kind of like what we're working with.
	And that's for stuff.
	You can still order a thing and it shows up in the mail to your house and it's the thing that you ordered.
	Because what's really lucrative is selling nothing.
	So that's when we start talking about your golds, your crypto, your NFT, even print-on-demand.
	your crypto, your NFT, even like print on demand, like, you know, that kind of like,
	you don't have to invest anything, right? But, or your courses.
	Like, Russell has a course.
	I've seen it.
	Okay, so here's what fucking sucks, again, about doing this research, is Russell had an online store, and they took it down as soon as the documentary came out.
	Yeah.
	And so it's a lot of things.
	A lot of things have have changed and developed since we started doing this podcast.
	You know, the charity thing is his old charity that's disappeared.
	And now he's got this new one.
	And I'm like, fuck, where's where's that one going?
	You know, That's not a good sign at all.
	None of it's positive.
	It's pretty bad, right?
	So now we can get into- And it makes it annoying.
	It's very annoying for folks like us to try and track what the fuck is going on.
	Yeah, no shit.
	Because also all of it's obscured on purpose, right?
	So we've got kind of the- We lack the resources of the Times and the Sunday Times and Channel 4.
	No shit.
	No shit.
	So, you know.
	Right.
	So, supplements being... Okay, so I kind of have a bit of a theory.
	A working theory.
	If y'all will go with me, this would be great.
	So, I think that the... So, basically, like, You have this kind of ecosystem, and we can use Alex Jones, I think, as a really good example of, like, starting with t-shirts and hats and stickers, and now we're moving to supplements.
	And then, I mean, we eventually get to, like, crypto and NFTs and shit.
	But, like, supplements, I feel like that's, like, the cheapest thing that you can manufacture and sell and mark up outrageously.
	Like, a thousand percent markup.
	Like, so Derek Barris, his sub-sac, one of the Conspiratoriality guys, does an amazing job breaking down, specifically, like an X-stack, Z-stack, or whatever, and it sounds like Z-Pak, which is antibiotics, but it's actually just supplements, so Z-stack.
	Also, not illegal, but unethical to name your thing something close.
	And Mickey Willis, the guy that made Plandemic, he found this quack doctor to, you know, like team up with and sell supplements.
	And Derek Barris just looked at the bulk, like buying all the elements in bulk.
	And breaking down the price, and this was retail, like, that you can just buy on Amazon.
	And the bottle ended up, like, of a 30-day supply of supplements, costing about $5.75, $5.90 to make.
	$5.90.
	That's retail prices.
	5.90 to make. $5.90 USD. And that's with retail prices.
	That's retail prices that are available.
	Not even for manufacturing. Yeah, that's not even wholesale for the ingredients.
	It's retail for the ingredients.
	And that bottle cost $55.
	So we're entering this conversation with all these understandings of this money.
	That's what I'm saying.
	I don't think the amounts of money are even that fucking useful at a given point, because it's like, what the fuck are we even talking about?
	What are we doing?
	It's just hand over fist, you know?
	It's interesting.
	So when I was at QED, I was in with... I think it was Skeptics With a K. I think it was that one.
	And during that, because it was just after all of the everything came out, there was a bit of talk about Russell Brand at the beginning.
	Namely, one of the products that Russell was selling, the people at Merseyside Skeptics had been approached by the same company to sell the same nutraceutical product, and Marsh was like, That's a bit fucking weird.
	I don't think they know what we do.
	Still, let's engage, let's see what we can get here, and ask for some free samples.
	You know, being like, well, you know, we're not just gonna go for anything that comes our way, so send us some shit, we'll let you know what we think.
	And yeah, they ended up being sent, you know, a few bottles of various nutraceutical products.
	I can't remember exactly which ones off the top of my head, annoyingly, but I do know that the retail prices of these were, you know, $150 for a little pot, you know, and you get four or five of those sent through and it's like, wow, this is an absolute fortune.
	And they were passed around the room and I was looking at it and I was like, This is like, this is like 10 bucks maximum.
	Just staring at it like, this is unbelievable!
	And I'm in a very, like, I'm sorry, I hate to break it to y'all place with supplements, but it's, it's, it's, it's unregulated.
	It's bullshit for the most part.
	It is complete and utter bullshit.
	It's unreal.
	And then, you know, Russell is making between, on the examples that I've seen, between 15 and 40 percent, depending how much he sells, right, off of that.
	So it's a lot.
	It's a lot of money.
	But that's the range that you can find.
	That's the range that I can find.
	Same.
	That's what I'm working with.
	And so, as far as stuff.
	I think talking about the stuff first that's putting money in his pocket.
	So we're touching on like, because a lot of the stuff I can't find anymore because the stores have been taken down.
	I saw somewhere like, in one of the articles he was selling permaculture animals.
	What?
	I know, I know, I know.
	But like, permaculture is also its own whole-ass grift on like, YouTube and in podcasts.
	It's outrageous.
	I don't recall seeing that one, but okay.
	I know.
	Well, it was just, I don't know.
	Like, trying to find information, I couldn't find how many people go to the community festival, none of that.
	Like, I have no fucking idea.
	Yeah, you won't.
	I know how much the tickets cost, which are reasonable, but like, for what?
	I don't know how many people are there.
	I could not- dude!
	I looked!
	I know, reasonable for Wim Hof and Vandana Shiva.
	Also, the festival is completely sober, so I feel like there's no amount of money that would make that worth it for me.
	Adults have a right to be dipshits and spend their money on dipshitty things.
	That is just a fact.
	Entirely true.
	I make very stupid art.
	I cannot, I can't be particularly shady if I'm honest.
	But right, so we're thinking about merch.
	So we've, I feel like we've thoroughly kind of explored the profit margin possibilities with merch stuff.
	Books huge.
	So there was like, there's a dude who did a breakdown and he's like a banker.
	It's like a legit, like really good YouTube dude.
	Um, I think money matters is I think not the NPR or anything.
	It's just like the name of his channel.
	So, and they use a couple of, so let's, let's do a breakdown of, This is as of two years ago.
	But let's talk about books.
	So I really like how he calculates kind of like an estimate of how you can get a baseline understanding of what kind of income these people are making, even though you cannot look at the records.
	We have no way of knowing.
	So let's see.
	He's got the daily AdSense revenue.
	Basically, I learned what CPM is in advertising terms.
	I actually knew about it before and I forgot.
	So, cost per mile, which is the amount an advertiser pays per 1,000 visitors who sees an ad.
	So that is a figure that is... Here's the thing, it's never...
	It is never stated on a website or if you want to be an affiliate marketer or if you are an affiliate marketer, you're never putting up concrete numbers because every single influencer or affiliate is negotiated.
	Because they are weighing so many factors to actually include you because they're going to save some money instead of having just like, okay, this is what we can, like, here's our prices.
	You can factor this into your costs.
	No, no, no.
	It's not like that.
	They're, they're negotiating every little widget and bob and bangle.
	And so we only can kind of assume we don't really know these numbers, but And this was two years ago.
	I haven't had it.
	It's a good idea as far as like...
	I mean, it's tough because a lot of the reported follower counts and stuff, it's the same person following over multiple platforms, it's not an individual follower for each channel, and on Twitter or whatever, it's a lot of overlaps.
	Yeah, so when people say Russell has X millions of cumulative followers, I'm like, well how many of those are the same fucking person, though?
	Come on, let's just bear this down a little bit, right?
	Yeah, even if you third it, you know, like that that is still like you're kind of making this assessment, right?
	So I think it's so fascinating that basically what he did was he took the channel on Google AdSense, that is on Google AdSense, which this is the kind of This is the funding that YouTube has taken away from Russell by demonetizing him.
	So this is the one thing that he's not going to keep getting is the Google AdSense per impression.
	Is that like per click per view?
	That's what's going to be taken away and he... So basically... His videos keep getting taken down which is very funny to me.
	Oh really?
	Yeah, there was one the other day.
	I had it open in a tab.
	I can't remember for what reason, but I had the Rumble and the YouTube open.
	I went back to go and look at the YouTube one.
	It was like, this video has been taken down for violating our misinformation standards.
	That's amazing.
	All right.
	Right.
	Yeah, that's well, I mean, that's part of it.
	Delightful.
	Right.
	So let's see.
	So if he's got And he, like, kind of went through the numbers of the time, but I feel like this would probably still apply to some degree.
	So, he's got daily average views across his, on his, let's see, these are, oh no, this is just the main channel.
	638,632, you divide it by 100 because that's what the CPM is, the cost per mile, which is per thousand views.
	Times his, so the CPM calculated, which is, I don't understand exactly what goes into that, and I tried and I could not find anywhere, but like $5.15.
	It's what an ad, like it's what a sponsor is paying for their ad.
	Okay.
	Which came out to $3,203 as a daily value for views on a specific, on the channel, across all his videos.
	and then YouTube takes 45% of that. So then you've got $1,762 daily coming in from that one channel,
	which is $634,142 a year.
	That's the one revenue stream.
	We also have the books.
	Books are incredibly cheap to make and the profit margin is very high.
	One of the things I cut out as well from the behind the scenes locals thing, because it wasn't particularly important, Um, was that he was talking about getting the publishing rights to his books back from the publishers.
	Oh!
	I don't know if they can keep his royalties or not.
	I couldn't find anything about that.
	It was driving me crazy.
	Depends on his deal.
	I don't know.
	Right.
	Yeah, was there also big, like, I think there was like a 1.8 million was like the upfront deal for one of his books for sure.
	Yeah, yeah.
	It was a revolution, I think that one was.
	Yeah, he has eight books.
	I don't know if he can still get... I don't know what the royalty situation is.
	Again, there's no way to know.
	But basically, he calculated just judging from what is available on Amazon.
	And I really like how they did this.
	And this is kind of gives you an idea of like, if you do something online, how much return you expect from advertising or from social media.
	Oh, where did he put it?
	Assume 1% of total daily viewers visit the store for the item.
	And then 5% of that 1% of viewers, a teeny tiny amount, I think it was 339 people, buy something.
	That came out to... Did he put these two books together?
	together, he did. And then estimating 20% return of gross sales of like, so profits
	that go into Russell's pocket is This is for the two books.
	$881 daily and $60 per year. We don't know what the deal actually is, but we can assume
	that there's a pretty penny going into his pocket from books.
	Yeah, what the situation is there.
	I mean, yeah, Revolution was the one he specifically wants to get back.
	Yeah.
	Obviously being the most pertinent to what he does now, I'm sure.
	And then he'll probably do an updated edition or whatever.
	Oh, I'm sure he'll talk all about it.
	Vote for JFK Jr.
	Yeah, and he's got, so he's got podcasts that are, so he still has Under the Skin and Above the Noise that are on all platforms, and there's gonna be residuals from those podcasts that some was like, they were published by Luminary, and if they aren't coming out and saying we aren't going to give him any more money, we can assume that he is still getting residuals.
	His current podcast, right?
	I'm not sure that, I'm not sure they're able to do that.
	I don't know.
	Right, it's a contract.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Unless they've got a character clause written to their contract, which they probably don't.
	A character clause, because yeah, usually you need legal action to even change any of that.
	Right, so Stay Free with Russell Brand is his twice-weekly podcast.
	He had Football is Nice, but that last episode happened on September 14th.
	Oh right, so we're working with like, each sponsor can be, again this is an average of like one to four thousand dollars per post.
	Of a podcast, per plug of a podcast or a video.
	So endorsements and affiliates are on top of what the Google AdSense that we talked about, so the YouTube money.
	And so that kind of adding, it's so much money.
	But yeah, it's like $2,000 to $4,000 per plug.
	And that's per episode.
	So that's several podcasts, videos on Rumble, videos on YouTube.
	So he's using the same content.
	He's making one podcast and releasing it in a number of places and then getting ad revenue potentially for each of those different views and places because he's also repurposing content onto Rumble and Rumble is paying that.
	So YouTube takes 45% But I think Rumble only takes 40 and that can add up when you are like a high earner.
	Yeah, 5% counts for a lot.
	Also, the big interviews he's doing, I've noticed this with Jordan Peterson and with someone else that we'll be covering, he'll throw it up on Locals first, and be like, ah, yeah, the main show, yeah, that's streamed to both places, but the big interviews, ah, you get the access to that first.
	And again, it's the same content.
	But he's dragging people into the locals channel that way, and so he's profiting off it three times at least.
	At least.
	I am interested that... And then, sorry, obviously he then cuts out the editorials and then puts them as separate videos as well on Rumble and YouTube.
	Which can be monetized separately and count as another post.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And we aren't nearly this smart or productive to be honest, or like not frazzled to do any of this stuff.
	It's impressive.
	Right, so football is nice.
	I do think it's really funny.
	We don't have 19 question mark stuff, so you know.
	We don't.
	We sure don't.
	This is it.
	Y'all are looking at it.
	And so football is nice.
	I think it's really interesting that that podcast stopped September 14th and Gareth Roy's face ain't on the fucking show anymore, unless he can, like, if he can avoid it.
	It is in line with Russell being like, oh, we have, you know, we have reconsidered, you know, we've taken the frivolity out and we're We're serious about our mission now.
	I think Gareth Roy is like, uh-uh.
	You ain't doing this for me.
	Well, I don't know, because every time he gets dragged in front of the camera, he still seems kind of annoyed that he's not more in front of the camera.
	So I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I can see that being... I think that both those multitudes could... Or both.
	Yeah, this is very true.
	Because, like, obviously he wants to control the show, but doesn't want his dumb face next to Russell.
	Like, because it's a bad long-term strategy.
	I do wonder whether, you know, as things kind of quiet down on that particular front, whether he'll start making a slow return or not.
	I don't know.
	We'll see.
	I'm really curious, honestly, because that's a lot.
	I mean, I don't know if he's giving up that like his portion of that revenue stream for football is nice.
	I have no idea.
	Right.
	So let's see.
	We talked about numbers already and.
	We've also talked about it a lot on the show already, too, so.
	Yes, true, and you know, anytime we can delve into specifics when we come across them, then we will.
	For instance, at some point in, towards the end of December, we should be able to see the first round of books delivered to Companies House for Stay Free Media, which will be interesting to look at.
	Um, you know, and, uh, I don't know.
	They might use some fucking loophole to push it back, or they might deliver late or anything else, but I'll be keeping an eye, and I will see anything that becomes available.
	Yeah.
	We'll be having a look.
	Right, and I do think that chunk of YouTube revenue is a factor, but not a huge factor, generally.
	No, no, I agree.
	And so, again, Rumble, oh my god, I tried to find out stuff on their website, and all- Good luck!
	Yeah, all of it is you gotta email us.
	We need to vet you.
	Not like we have a price list.
	Like, we might talk to you if we want.
	So let's see.
	Like I said, let's see.
	So YouTube retains 45%, whereas Rumble retains 40%.
	And that can add up.
	So Rumble offers an added incentive for creators who produce viral videos.
	Well, this is from a silly little cute little blog.
	She did great.
	It's fine.
	Through the creator program, creators can earn additional revenue if their video reaches a certain number of views within a set time frame.
	The program offers a bonus payment on top of the standard revenue share and creators can earn anywhere from $1,000 to $100,000 depending on how successful their video is.
	Now that's a range!
	That's a fucking range!
	How are we even supposed to parse that out?
	Like it's such a huge range.
	Yeah, it's ridiculous.
	And it's one of the common things that happened kind of when people were trying to grapple with this after everything kind of happened, you know, and there were a lot of wild speculations going on basically because of the obfuscation that happens.
	You know, and I do think things like that do speak to why Russell is very insistent on, hey, if we get 20,000 people watching, we'll do whatever you want.
	You want to see my dick?
	I'll get my dick out.
	And then not do it?
	20,000 people.
	Well, he does most of the time.
	Also that.
	Not get his dick out.
	He mostly brings out the dog or Gareth.
	Also, the dog is everywhere.
	The dog is fucking everywhere.
	I can hear, I can feel my heart be like, And I'm like, no!
	No, Hart!
	Knock it off!
	Yeah, I know.
	It's effective.
	I do also agree with his audience that both the dog and Gareth Roy are better to drag out there than him.
	So I'm like, yeah, that's fair enough.
	Could you ever find concrete numbers on his deal with Rumble specifically?
	No, it's one of those very annoying things.
	I do know that one weird thing, given that he is kind of, you know, He's a big figure on Rumble.
	His subscriber count is huge on there.
	It's enough I have to avoid the website to not know what we're talking about.
	What's weird is that I personally have never seen him on the front page of Rumble.
	And I find that really strange.
	Oh, he was whenever I looked at it, like, yesterday.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Interesting.
	Well, it was, like, down.
	It was, like, scrolled down a little bit, but yeah, he was there.
	I always tend to kind of mooch all the way through, you know, and I can never seem to find him.
	Yeah.
	Which is weird, considering I have an account on there, and it's almost exclusively his content that I watch with that account, and yet he never shows up.
	Well, this is weird.
	Sounds like a bad website.
	one would think. Interesting.
	Well, but so the best I could find was that Andrew Tait claimed his deal with Rumble was
	$9 million. So we can assume that with all the same announcements, all the same agreements,
	all the same kind of hype, and what I did find... So Rumble has made still more dubious investments,
	Tait being a dubious investment, such as buying a house in Miami for Popular Lung Creators,
	Kai Sena and Aisho Speed, a property that Sena was quick to confirm the duo would not actually live
	in. So, I think that's a pretty good investment. I think that's a pretty good investment.
	So yeah, the company's last quarterly statement in August showed an operational loss of more than $58 million, with millions more to be paid out in creator contracts in the coming months.
	So they're doing a loss leader move.
	They're throwing money hand over fist, which is so fucking hard to actually nail down.
	Um, it's, it's, basically there's, I, I would hope that I've, like, kinda, you know, outlined a lot of the, let's see, his...
	His options for making money.
	He has real estate holdings that are massive, which we've talked about before, and I think that's what people cite.
	They at least factor that in in the 20 million net worth, but real estate's an investment.
	You can get returns on it.
	Performances, he can make a lot of money.
	I think there was an estimate of $400,000 a year off of ticket sales, but if he's not allowed to perform, that's gonna be a real chunk out of his money.
	What a shame that his tour gets cancelled.
	I know, right?
	Pity.
	Okay, so let's see.
	Merchandise was, let's see, assuming 20%, merchandise estimated $288,700 per year.
	Let's see, assuming 20% merchandise estimated $288,700 per year.
	So affiliate marketing, okay. A lot of the stuff we already talked about before.
	And I think we've done a pretty good job of establishing where that money comes from.
	Why are you sending me a link?
	What are you trying to achieve? Well, so now we're going to incorporate
	the company that, let's talk about the company that Russell keeps with his funding opportunities.
	So if you would be so kind as to check out the front page of the Heritage Gold Investment Company, which don't invest in metals, guys, just don't.
	Oh yeah, sensible.
	Asterisk, but we're gonna check this out and we're gonna see how fun.
	Fun these folks are that Russell is his enlightened spiritual self is running around with and and palling around with.
	I couldn't find a lot of controversies for you know controversies or any kind of serious problems.
	It's kind of standard like gold investment is dumb and bad and not lucrative and is volatile at best.
	But Nothing major.
	So yeah, so this is the gold company with Bill O'Reilly.
	Delightful.
	Is the big boy on the landing page.
	He's gone all weird, there we go.
	Right, so for the gold company investors kit and all that, I like looking at the other folks that the companies themselves are putting out front.
	So, free investors kit, get prepared, get informed, plus receive up to $15,000 in free silver!
	Oh, that was the complete... I kept finding is that I didn't get my free silver!
	I found that all over the place.
	On qualifying purchases.
	So yeah, you probably didn't.
	The qualifying purchase is probably like a million dollars worth or something shit like that.
	Or maybe they do and they just don't send it.
	Oh, maybe.
	Yeah.
	But basically, I wanted to focus on like Bill O'Reilly being on the cover.
	And so I do think maybe this gold investment scheme... Oh, but look, you can get a gold American Eagle thing for IRA from the U.S.
	Mint.
	I mean, who doesn't want that?
	Oh, there he is.
	There's a chucklehead again.
	Yeah, so here's the thing.
	Content creators that are brave enough to sell you real gold.
	Oh, that's us.
	So can we get back to the double view again of just us?
	Yeah, I think.
	Because I feel like the Bill O'Reilly was the fun part.
	I don't want to look at Bill O'Reilly anymore.
	No, yeah, that was enough.
	Because speaking of merch and speaking of I'm a crazy person and I make everything out of repurposed materials and I'm a magpie.
	I have made magnets with actual gold leaf.
	It's gold leaf, but it's real ass gold.
	And so we do have magnets.
	So more gold than Russell is.
	Yeah, right?
	And so, yeah, so I'm actually I made magnets and there's only we have a handful right now, which is why I buried them in the tail of the Nearly three hours.
	But that's because I didn't make a lot yet.
	It's an experiment.
	For listeners, there is a square magnet with our cool logo that Lauren did and with gold leaf around the edges and it looks fucking dope to be fair.
	And I'll put pictures up that you can actually see and stuff and we'll have a link.
	I'll pin the comment on YouTube and I'll send you the link so we can You can get to the first few, um, you know, my, my options are limited for shipping and stuff.
	So I didn't want to like make a big thing of it this week, but next week we'll be in a better shape.
	But I just think it's fun and cute that I want to make stuff with my hands out of harvested materials and some creativity and good old fashioned gumption.
	And you can buy.
	It's very cool.
	And I look forward to having one on my fridge.
	I'm, I'm, well, you have a whole care package coming.
	It's completely fun.
	Um, but yeah, so that's like a fun, cute little thing in the middle of all this misery, which we will go back to right now.
	So Field of Greens, and I do want to talk about this like as a supplement, like I genuinely believe the sheer, sheer cheapness of Supplement.
	Just the insane markup.
	Yeah, because their one is just pure pounded vegetables.
	That's all they do.
	Here's how... Which also, all of the... Basically, it's a similar issue to juicing.
	If you break down vegetables and then drink them, you don't get any fiber, and that's kind of one of the things you really need from vegetables.
	So basically, all their disclaimers will say, okay, we have to... Also, It's another supplement scam.
	I think it's honestly a pretty clever supplement scam because they don't even have to put capsules together.
	really like, oh, but also diet, exercise and eat vegetables and
	leafy greens, but then this is also good when it's not it's it's another supplement scam. I think it's honestly a
	pretty really clever supplement scam because they don't even have
	to put capsules together. They can just put the powder
	straight out to a jar, put some water in it and drink it and then
	And then they're waiting, they're relying on you to like if it's say like a month supply and it can be like 80 bucks like I mean this shit is fucking outrageous and like I've dehydrated Greens into green powder before.
	It's not fucking rocket science.
	And it's also not a substitute for food.
	And so you've got this $80 jar.
	They figured out you didn't have to put capsules in it.
	And if you're like me, you know that having a consistent scoop every day for 30 days, maybe it's a little heaping.
	Maybe you want to double up one day.
	Whatever.
	The shake mix Grift is wild.
	It never lasts 30 days.
	It never lasts 30 days.
	They're banking on it.
	And they have subscription models, like all that kind of stuff.
	So I'm going to send you folks who endorse, like this is who Brickhouse Nutrition, the people that make Field of Greens, have actively intentionally put on their website, not Russell, but other folks, to Advertise and as endorsers that they want involved in the front-facing part of their business.
	I have actually seen this.
	Okay, who have we got?
	We've got Mommy's Tell All.
	Yep.
	Okay, with The Bachelor's Tommy Waddle.
	The first couple people are whatever.
	They're fine.
	Jade Roper.
	Lauren Chen.
	Who's Lauren Chen?
	Roaming Millennial.
	YouTube blogger.
	Okay.
	Chad Prather.
	Or Prater, if you're feeling it.
	It's probably Prather.
	Nancy Grace.
	Nancy Grace?
	See, now we're getting into it.
	Old Nancy Gross.
	Okay, Rapsheet and Friends.
	It's Ian Rappaport and Mike Garofalo, I know that name, and Tom Pelissero.
	So that's an NFL guy, right?
	So then Dennis Miller, upstanding citizen, Dennis fucking Miller.
	See, now we're getting into it.
	Michael Knowles, right?
	Oh look, it's Matt Walsh!
	See, now we're getting to the meat and potatoes of it all.
	Eric Bischoff?
	He was in wrestling.
	Good old Eric Bischoff.
	And Jim Ross, also in wrestling.
	Jim, the famous commentator, Jim Ross, by God!
	Linda McMahon was like, in the, was appointed by Trump.
	Well, yes, yes.
	I'm aware that the right and wrestling are a common.
	It's insane!
	Yes, no, I completely agree.
	Fucking Stu Berger, The Blaze.
	Yeah, The Blaze, right?
	Oh, look, it's Ben Shapiro!
	That's where we're at.
	Yeah, so Ben Shapiro, Benny Schaps, and let's see, Glenn Beck.
	And then if we go down a little bit further... And then Dan Bongino!
	Oh, it's Dan Bongino, the biggest thing on Rumble!
	Yes!
	That's the other thing I saw, I was like, crazy, right?
	His subscriber count is bananas.
	I don't know why people watch Dan Bongino, but they fucking do.
	I told you, whenever we were in Amarillo, he was on the radio.
	Like, he's on a syndicated radio show.
	Well, so we talked about Influencer, which is kind of like a grassroots MLM versus corporate media and like investment.
	So the Ben Shapiro's and the Tucker's of it all is what I tasked Al with looking into.
	Yeah, you know, the company that Russell decides to keep.
	Ben Shapiro was supposed to be on Russell's show at some point soon, or he was before the allegations all came out, so I'm sure he'll be on soon, I'm sure.
	I don't know.
	He can be very skittish, from what I can tell.
	You reckon?
	It depends.
	Okay.
	I've never found him particularly... I'm not going to put money on either side, by the way.
	I've never found him particularly morally upstanding.
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	No, it's entirely like, it's entirely politicking, you know.
	Entirely financial.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's all, it's all, it's all like, it's, it's all maneuvers.
	It's not anything ethical by any stretch of the imagination.
	So I've got two people here and the first one I'm going to deal with is Ben Shapiro.
	So, he has an estimated net worth of around $55 million, and he's got an annual salary at the moment of around $3 million.
	He started earning from his writing at 17, and he was syndicating his column at the time nationwide in the US, and he managed to publish two books by the age of 21.
	Um, which is why, you know, he does look like a perpetual fucking teenager.
	And I do think that's partly why, um, is that he started so young.
	And so I just, I always just see him as this child, basically.
	And also he sounds and acts like a child.
	I say it's his attitude and the things he says really contribute to the overall vibe.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So his early career also included working at a law firm and hosting a radio show on KRLA AM 870.
	Okay, great.
	Conservative AM, baby!
	Money, money, money, money, money!
	Yep.
	His success in various online media platforms including YouTube and podcasting has expanded his audience quite a lot.
	His books have been frustratingly successful, contributing significantly to his income.
	Notable earnings include 12 million dollars from How to Debate Leftists and Destroy Them.
	Who is buying that book?
	Who is believing he can do that?
	I know!
	I've not seen it happen once.
	Who's believing he can do that?
	I know! I've not seen it happen once.
	Um, $870,000 from, uh, Authoritarian Moment.
	Um, which, which, which- Okay!
	I feel like we can describe- Seems a little on the nose!
	Right?
	I'm like, was that like Trump's equivalent of a senior moment?
	You know, he'd just have authoritarian moments while he was in power?
	Fire and fury!
	Oh, sorry, I was having a moment.
	Yeah, right?
	Seven million dollars from How to Destroy America in Three Easy Steps.
	Also, little on those!
	Yeah, right?
	No, his steps were us.
	His steps were us.
	We're the problem, apparently.
	Four million dollars from bullies.
	Who are the bullies?
	It's definitely us.
	And a million dollars from the right side of history.
	Dude, it's like Trump's kid making the Triggered book, and it's just a picture of him, and the word Triggered, and then flames on the cover.
	Buddy!
	Jumping the shark!
	A good chunk of those figures do come with a grain of salt, because again, this information is very hard to get specifics on, but it will be around there anyway.
	So in 2015, The Daily Wire was founded by Ben Shapiro and Caleb Robinson, and is owned by those two, plus Jeremy Boring.
	Terrible.
	Oh yeah, it's with an E. It's fine.
	Yes, there's an E in it.
	You can't pick your last name.
	Jeremy Boring, a children's cartoon character, and Farris Wilkes, the latter of which put up the initial investment money into The Daily Wire.
	Together they all own BentKey Ventures LLC, which in turn owns The Daily Wire.
	So they own the company that owns The Daily Wire.
	So they're at least one step removed, which legally is probably very sensible.
	Yeah.
	The Daily Wire company has generated substantial revenue, and in 2022, their annual revenue surpassed $100 million.
	Wonderful.
	And obviously, Shapiro being a stakeholder in that, I don't know whether it's even Stevens, whether it's 25% each or how it's split, but yeah, a chunk of that $100 million went to him.
	Yeah.
	They've also expanded fairly recently to other forms of media, by the way.
	They're doing feature films and children's series as well.
	Those are words you could use!
	Happy times.
	Yeah.
	They're atrocious.
	It's so bad.
	Oh, any number of other podcasts can illuminate the atrocities that they've been producing.
	I am sure.
	Have Godawful Movies covered any of their shit?
	Yeah.
	Yes, awesome.
	It's the Hunter stuff, yeah.
	Okay, there we go.
	You get to hear Eli Bosnick take a shit on Ben Shapiro's stuff.
	Yeah, they definitely do.
	And other podcasts have too, it's really great.
	I love it.
	They can all take the pot shot.
	Yeah, please do.
	Absolutely Godawful.
	Um, Shapiro speaks at various events, where organizations and institutions pay lucrative fees for his presence.
	And his fees specifically are believed to be around $50,000 to $100,000 per event.
	Which is just absurd.
	Um, yeah.
	One dollar is too much.
	I kind of, when I was looking for this, I kind of looked into like, okay.
	What if I wanted to hire him?
	Let's pretend I want to hire him and see kind of where I'm at.
	$100,000 was the average, and $50,000 was kind of the minimum I could find.
	That's if you're extra special.
	That's like the family discount.
	Yeah, if you give him a handy J, then he'll do it for $50,000.
	And you know, the events in question, it's hard to find information about specifically where he's speaking or what the fuck he's doing, because these are private people doing private things.
	But yeah, the conservative event circuit is a pretty fucking lucrative one.
	And that's a whole kind of grifting spinoff in of itself.
	That was what I was like, I was like texting out like, this is too much.
	Like, I can't like this just opened everything up even and I already could barely fit in Most of the stuff that I could talk about under this topic.
	And so in addition to that, and think about that in terms of events generally, like events are, and there's a great way to launder money.
	Jordan Peterson, the ARC conference thing is going on around the world as we speak, you know, that that.
	A terrific way to launder money, considering it's set up by some very, very rich people.
	Yes!
	And evidently, because they were sold out, and Ben Shapiro tends to put arses in seats in fairness, there is an appetite to see these people, which is probably the most depressing part, to be honest.
	But yeah, that's a whole other thing in of itself that is also very hard to find information on.
	Again, because private people doing private things.
	Those are also legitimately like backroom deals.
	Yes, yeah, there's that.
	And those do happen.
	There are also kind of just straight up like, hey, this is a conservative conference talking about conservative stuff, and that happens too, and you know, there are There are plenty of cases where it's not just, hey, I want to fucking make some money off of these people.
	I mean, they do make some money as well.
	But, but yeah, so that's a that's a whole other thing that I don't know, it would be good to do a deep dive into that at some point, because Well, that's an MLM.
	That's another Venn diagram.
	MLM overlap is that MLMs will have like these huge conferences and cruises and all that kind of shit.
	And they will pay gigantic amounts to like YouTube motivational speakers or like even just...
	Dropping three grand and giving somebody a week-long cruise can gain a lot of market share, a lot of diplomacy from one YouTube brief to another.
	The network of connections that these people can establish is kind of what I've been trying to get at with this whole... It's a network of Access to so many different kinds of revenue and then also these people can network in the traditional kind of like business networking sense of like of shoring up each other's ventures and giving tons and tons of fucking money to each other.
	Oh yeah, oh yeah.
	But back to Ben Shapiro, just to finish off his finances.
	He's invested heavily in the stock market with a portfolio including stocks from Facebook, well Meta.
	So yeah, that's all terrible.
	A lot of money there.
	So, you know, nothing terribly unusual there that we're aware of.
	He also owns several properties in locations like Los Angeles and Nashville,
	and he has a collection of luxury cars that, you know, they will actually
	earn him a profit in the long run as long as he doesn't trash them or anything.
	So, yeah, that's all terrible. A lot of money there.
	So much money. So much money.
	The second person that we're going to deal with is someone who Russell, on an almost daily basis, just absolutely treats as a god.
	And that is Tucker Carlson.
	Gargles the balls of, if you will.
	Every day!
	It's like, oh, you know, people like Tucker Carlson who just are doing these amazing things every day.
	It's honestly insufferable.
	Really?
	Every kind of third or fourth of his editorials will somehow be about or heavily feature Tucker Carlson.
	I'm just a buddy.
	Just calm it down for a little while, Jesus Christ!
	You've already had him on the show, you know, and I know you consider him your mate and everything, but come on, let's calm it down a bit.
	Anyway, Tucker Carlson has an estimated net worth of $520 million.
	So his earnings primarily come... He's like legacy, I mean he comes from so much money though, like it's...
	Well, this is it.
	So, you know, a lot of it comes from, you know, his role as a media host.
	And he does have a bunch of investments, but also, yeah, his inheritance.
	So he inherited a significant sum from his stepmother, Patricia Caroline Swanson, an heiress to Swanson Enterprises.
	It's unclear as to the precise amount, unfortunately.
	That's so crazy!
	As an aside, yeah I know, I know.
	He never made a frozen food in his whole life!
	No!
	No, I would be... No, not at all.
	I'd be amazed if he's ever made any food in his life.
	As an aside, Tucker's biological mother left him one dollar in her will, because she disagreed with everything he stands for and has become.
	She was like a San Francisco hippie type.
	So she was like, nah, fuck that guy, you get a dollar.
	Well, alright.
	I mean, y'know.
	I hope somebody whipped it at him in pennies.
	That was in the will.
	In a sock.
	And just, poof!
	There you go, Tucker.
	That's from your mum.
	Goodbye.
	From beyond the grave!
	That's a sockin'.
	Alright.
	A slockin'.
	So Carlson, he began his journalism career as a fact-checker for Policy Review, eventually working for various publications.
	He worked at CNN, PBS and MSNBC before joining Fox News in 2009.
	And there he worked his way up from bowtie-wearing buffoon to having his own kind of mainline show.
	His annual salary from Fox News was estimated at the time of being fired to be around $41 million, with the possibility of an additional $3 million in bonuses paid based on the ratings of his show, Tucker Carlson Tonight.
	There are, however, conflicting reports about his salary, with some sources saying it could have been between $15 and $20 million annually.
	But again, private people doing private things, all of this is fucking obfuscated.
	Who the hell knows?
	I do think we're painting a pretty, like, informative picture of the ecosystem, though.
	I think y'all can get an idea.
	Oh yeah, for sure.
	And even if it is $20 million rather than $40 million, it's a shitload of money.
	It's a lot of fucking money.
	It's a shitload of money!
	And his assets include investments in at least eight real estate properties, ten luxury cars, three luxury yachts, and cash reserves of over 96 million dollars.
	He also owns a portfolio of 18 stocks valued at 75 million dollars and has a luxury penthouse in New York, a mansion in Florida, and a property in California.
	These are at least a last checking.
	They could have changed in the last kind of six months or so, but I honestly kind of doubt it.
	You know, he's doing just fine.
	And also money makes money as far as dividends and that kind of thing.
	That's the sort of thing that I didn't feel like I needed to talk about because that's just money stuff.
	Money makes money for you like that's there is a point where like the amount of money you could just like have it in a bank and live off of it for the rest of your life like there's these are jobs so fucking unreal sums of money and what I did not cover is that all of Tucker?
	Yeah.
	Thank you so much for doing that.
	I really appreciate it.
	It's alright.
	I feel like that's a good example.
	I did want to just like contrast that as far as like the difference between corporate and kind of the influencer track.
	Because like, and what sucks is like, here's the thing, listeners Babes, I'm not telling you how to shop, and I'm not trying to shame you for buying stuff.
	We all have to participate in capitalism in some form or fashion.
	Especially those of us who are poor, you know, the choices are way more limited.
	But I hope that I illuminated a little bit of just, like, why everything sucks so bad.
	If I can curb you from supporting some of these companies, maybe just look at Or, you know, maybe don't spend 80 bucks on some dust.
	Because you don't even know what's in it.
	They put the nutrition things on the side and they make the little chart of supplement facts look exactly like the nutrition facts that is mandated by the government.
	That's on purpose.
	No one is checking.
	No one is looking.
	And especially all these fly-by-night operations.
	It's just basically sophisticated dropshipping.
	And I would love to have gone and all that too.
	Just buy some vegetables.
	Buy some vegetables, cook them in a gym, please.
	That'll be better for you and infinitely cheaper.
	I mean, not necessarily super cheap, but definitely cheaper than that stuff.
	Cheaper than a bottle of lies.
	Right.
	And then I didn't even have time to get into events because, um, right.
	So football is nice.
	It's kind of like, Ground to a halt.
	So that's the Gareth Roy kind of like side venture.
	But the community festival with Laura and Russell brand, as the branding says, Instagram is still up.
	You can still buy tickets, but the merch store is down.
	And I don't know about the associations of everybody that's tagged in, like, I don't know how folks are going to manage the 2024 lineup.
	I'd imagine there's plenty of people that are still going to be on board.
	I know Wim Hof doesn't give a fuck about the allegations being made against Russell.
	Is he on the next lineup again?
	Oh, I don't know.
	The lineup is not yet, but I'm just saying, like, I'd imagine he would be.
	They seem chummy.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, he's not going to give a shit.
	No, he's not going to care at all.
	Absolutely.
	And yeah, I don't think he's going to have any issue finding guests.
	That's for sure.
	Well, and even as a person that vans at events, like, you try your best to, you know, vet.
	And also, it's not that hard.
	I'm a teeny tiny little maker of literal individual things out of, like, reclaimed trash and discarded materials.
	I am I am a different species of human.
	Fair.
	But I understand that, like, there's only so much you can do.
	If that's, like, the moneymaker of your event calendar, if you go to that show and you kill it, and if they aren't... I couldn't find what they were charging for booths for artisans.
	I really looked.
	It wasn't anywhere.
	But, like, if it's a low fee... Well, not necessarily.
	Usually that stuff is listed.
	It seems like his website as a whole was scaled way back post Honestly, his website is a fucking mess, to be perfectly honest.
	It's really hard to navigate.
	It's crappy.
	And really, even harder to find any information.
	Yeah, there's no information on it.
	But what I did find, and one of the articles that I found was, as far as the ticket sales for those events, those go to the Foundation, but merch and everything else goes to Russell.
	And I do want people to understand, as far as events go, And I know that having volunteers is a crapshoot and it's not like having employees, but...
	Volunteers, like basically if you want to go to an event for free, you're like, I'm going to volunteer for it.
	And then you get a shirt and you show up and you do the thing.
	But the amount of labor costs that are saved for enthusiastic volunteers doing event stuff, the overhead is so drastically reduced as far as like operating costs.
	Yes, absolutely.
	Which, I mean, I guess fair.
	Again, that's not a grift necessarily, but it's freeing up income and resources to go back into Russell and Laura's pocket.
	Yeah, it's not something I'm a fan of in a lot of ways.
	I mean, normally in this country, festivals here, it'll be like bar staff and stewards usually, you know, people directing traffic, that kind of thing, or just telling people where things are, that sort of thing.
	Being behind a bar pouring pints, you know, and... Well, they're usually making tips though, that's at least something.
	Oh, not in this country, they're not.
	Oh, that's right.
	You don't live in the Wild West, I forgot.
	No, we don't do that here.
	We pay an adequate wage or everyone fucks off.
	Except, to be fair, there is normally a convention of tipping in restaurants, but that depends equally.
	In a restaurant restaurant, yes, it's normal to tip.
	It would be weird in like a pub, unless it's a kind of slightly upscale pub.
	There are nuances.
	As with everything in British culture, there's just tons of social convention that we expect you to know upon arrival, and if not, then go fuck yourself.
	Everything is a hedge maze, from what I understand.
	Everything is a hedge maze based on rules that are 300 years old.
	Yes, exactly, exactly.
	Right, right, right, right.
	Yeah.
	So that's a whole other avenue that it seems like is still open of revenue.
	Because the thing is, if you're a person that organizes events, if you're that human being and you're a well-meaning, hard-working person, I am not talking about you.
	But I have had a lot of experience with just large-scale events, tattoo conventions.
	The amount of waste is insane.
	The amount of...
	Revenue is bonkers, and there are absolutely amazing events.
	I think QED is a great example of event organizers that take that money and reinvest it into their events every year, and they make the event as good as it possibly can be.
	That is not always the case, and it doesn't have to be.
	They need to change the hotel where it happens, but yes, yes, please continue.
	Yeah, and they'll bitch about it.
	It's another asterisk where, well, there's a range.
	Take a look if you're on Instagram in the community.
	What's also crazy is Russell is still posting on his main Instagram.
	But in the community, so he will write.
	It's implied he'll write captions on community that are still like very woo wee woo and spiritual and then he signs them.
	It's just like Hare Krishna and then X like we saw in the primer episode.
	He was like being ambushed by some paparazzi and he's like Hare Krishna Hare Krishna.
	That was like his.
	That was like a greeting, an aloha.
	It is interesting that he signs off with Hare Krishna rather than, you know, praise be to Jesus.
	Because again... I thought so.
	He's, you know, it's definitely to... It's the crunchy yoga moms.
	Yes, to go for the broader hippie appeal.
	Yeah, that's definitely what he's shooting for.
	He's trying to have it both ways, isn't he?
	Exactly.
	The branding is totally different.
	Meanwhile, he's asking the people on his locals channel, like, oh, what are your favorite verses that we should cover for the Bible reading on Monday?
	You know, that's the reality of the situation, not fucking Harry.
	Not Harry Kushner!
	No, no, it's, it's, um, Leviticus and, you know, that kind of shit.
	And that's, that's, that's where we're winding up.
	I mean, what sucks is, like, he's juggling these different personas fairly seamlessly.
	It's like, and it all, it kind of feels like it's on Laura.
	Like, for the community shit?
	Like, whatever's in Laura's, uh, whatever she's been shopping for lately?
	Like, whatever's in her closet is, like, kind of dictating how the community branding looks and feels?
	And that's fucking effective, my guy!
	Holy shit!
	Like, it's a lot!
	And so, right, so anyway, it's like, I obviously have, uh, I was...
	I dove into this quagmire and there's so many more aspects of it.
	We didn't even get to talk about campaign finance.
	We didn't get to talk about money in politics or how Citizens United And political fundraising or just fundraising and nonprofits in general is a huge a whole other aspect of this whole like grifter ecosphere.
	I hope I didn't get too like in the weeds.
	I don't feel like I did or I hope that if I you know was if I got granular then it was useful.
	I think that there's a lot of stuff that because I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I look at the retail landscape in 2023.
	Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's reasonable.
	No, I'm biased possibly, but I think you've done a great job.
	You also are patient with long-form material, which our listeners are too.
	I was gonna say, I think listeners to this podcast specifically will be fine with that.
	I wasn't worried about filling the...
	No filler!
	I did appreciate the defining of the terms, that's definitely... because even if it seems obvious, it does help to just be like, right, this is what this is supposed to be, this is what is happening.
	Right, right.
	Well, and I do think this is a good chunk of vocabulary that we can all together, me, you, and listeners can move forward with.
	We still have this benchmark.
	This discussion is a good jumping off point for examining all these ideas further when they come up.
	You know, and I'm, I'm, I'm cool with that.
	I, uh, and also thank you so much, everybody, for listening and letting me get my, you know, my little, my little toesies, my little piggies wet and, like, actually putting together an episode.
	It was also like, man, I would love to just have things to, like, subjects to, that are a little more, uh, limited to kind of research, but, um, Seriously, like, this is a drop in the fucking bucket.
	It's a drop of a drop in a bucket.
	But I think that if nothing else, like, I'm not trying to tell you all what to shop or what to do any of that stuff.
	Just keeping in mind where you're like, you know, you can you vote with your dollars.
	And so Every little dollar vote goes somewhere, and a lot of this really shady shit is right under the surface.
	It's a sticky wicket that we live in, and I hope that even just me bitching about stuff that might seem confusing out of context, you have context as to why I am pitching a fit about It's not a particular, like, retail, you know, like, modern retail and shitification hell.
	We didn't even talk about planned obsolescence, that's a whole thing.
	It's like all these little parts.
	It's like, it just, every piece of capitalism with the advent of modern technology has been allowed to just...
	Put their like put their pedal to the metal and just go like full bore we are going to push this like we're going to push it as far as we possibly can we're going to push every truck driver as far as to the brink of bankruptcy we're going to push every like we're going to work every single.
	Employee of a sweatshop to the brink of survivability.
	And their families.
	And their water supplies.
	Everything.
	And their country's economy.
	Absolutely.
	And there's so much corruption within the system, and it's like, The fact that it was a scandal there was a sweatshop when I was in the sixth grade is fucking crazy because now that's just how stuff is made.
	Stuff that like both of us can touch right now that we are, you know, in arm's reach of.
	So, that's why I use reclaimed secondhand materials as much as I possibly can.
	Buy secondhand when you can.
	It makes such a massive fucking difference.
	And if Bill O'Reilly is on the front page of a thing, or if Ben Shapiro and Dan Bongino are in the sponsor of a thing, don't buy it!
	Just don't!
	Just don't buy it!
	Don't give them your money!
	No.
	And so that, I hope it was, anyway, yeah, I hope I, you know, I hope I, well, Mr. John Vaughn, I hope I did you proud.
	And thank you so much for the request.
	And I will wrap myself around an axle for, if the dollar amount is right, on our Patreon myself.
	And that's not a grift, because I'm just telling you the truth.
	That's just what happens.
	Telling you what we're doing, and that's great.
	I mean, we are painfully transparent, both as people and as a podcast.
	Oh, 100%.
	Problematically so.
	Well, I personally think, well done, Lauren.
	Great job.
	And I hope audience, you feel the same.
	Let us know how you feel.
	Please do.
	We would love for that very much.
	If you want to support us and what we do, head to patreon.com slash onbrand.
	We would be very, very grateful for any and all donations.
	If you want to get in touch with us, drop us an email.
	It's theonbrandpartatgmail.com.
	We will get back to you eventually.
	It's becoming a joke at this point, but we will!
	I gotta shower first, y'all.
	Yeah, like Lauren has said, we're in kind of permanent crunch zone at the moment, so we're trying, we're trying.
	Just in time for the holiday shopping season, by the way.
	Yeah, exactly.
	If you want some magnets.
	It's a factor.
	If you want to put lore into more work, buy some magnets, please.
	I'm okay with that.
	And other stuff.
	Also all the things.
	There's a Facebook group, it's On Brand Awakening Wonders, and come and join, come and say hi.
	Everyone's kind of introducing and hanging out.
	I haven't checked in there in a little while, in a couple of days, but...
	As far as I can see, everyone's having a great old time.
	A gay old time, as it might be said.
	There's also a subreddit, go to onbranderscorepod and come and join folks there.
	The other gay old time!
	The other gay old time, yeah, because there are great people there having a chat about various happenings.
	Yeah, and socials, we're The On-Brand Pod at most places except for Twitter, but you know, just look for the logo, you'll find us, The On-Brand Podcast, we're not that hard to find.
	And everywhere else, I personally am at Alworth Official, and Lauren is at maid.buy.lauren.be.
	Yeah, in terms of next week's show, I am unclear exactly what the timings are going to be, but things are in the works and it's going to be very cool.
	It's going to be very exciting.
	Oh, and, and, and, if you're not on socials, great, good, I'm happy for you.
	That's fantastic.
	So the magnet thing, I know for sure, The few that I have right now.
	And I think maybe I'll do a pre-order thing because I can make, I can swing that.
	I'm happy to.
	So on our link tree, no matter what, I'm going to have a link to, so whatever is linked in the vehicle that you are taking in this podcast, if you go to linktree, so L-I-N-K-T-R dot E-E slash on brand, right?
	I'm pretty sure.
	Yes, it's on brand.
	So it'll be in there.
	I'll also make sure it's in the show notes as well.
	Yeah, well, and I mean, who knows?
	Sometimes links are kind of screwy, depending on the podcatcher.
	I'm actually going to check that right now, if you want to do any more talking about stuff.
	If I want to do any more talking about stuff.
	I don't know.
	I've been wrung out like a Like a damp dishcloth.
	Yeah, no, I don't really have any plugs because I'm not doing any kind of events or anything, which yay me, I suppose.
	I'm instead juggling toddlers and animals.
	Sometimes, literally.
	And that's got its own...
	It's own challenges instead of events, but here we are.
	Here we are.
	I will, in about six hours, I'm sure, have a toddler kicking me in the face to wake me up, being like, right, okay.
	Oh, okay, I found it.
	Oh, well.
	Linktree.
	Here we go.
	Shit.
	Alright, we've got the definite link.
	I'm so stupid.
	Alright, link L-A-N-K-T-R dot E-E slash theonbrandpod.
	All one word.
	That's the onbrandpod.
	Theonbrandpod.
	So just on brand, you would get some marketing fucking thing, no doubt.
	I'm sure a lovely pastel couple of gals telling you how to Etsy store, I don't know.
	Most of them seem to be guys, actually.
	Most of the on brand, like, yeah, the marketing people, it's all... I didn't even get to bitch about the whole mindset grindset, like marketing nightmare.
	Like it's a whole other thing that is also like incredibly lucrative for some people.
	But right.
	So magnets will be at our link tree or you can find it on socials links, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
	I just want to make sure that's available.
	And oh, my God, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your time and attention, everybody.
	That's wonderful.
	Thank you so much.
	You've been awesome.
	I hope you have enjoyed this as much as we have.
	It is.
	Yeah.
	I think it's important to be able to have a foundation on which to understand all of this shit, and especially knowing the how and why all of it is enabled to come into being, and I think that helps.
	It doesn't make any of it less terrible, but it does point at... It can be overwhelming, I think, honestly.
	Yeah, I do think it points... In total.
	It points at potential solutions, however, because it's like, well, we weren't always like this, and we can go back to a point where we weren't like this.
	With some concentrated effort, we can achieve that.
	It's not a genie in a bottle.
	We can get rid of this shit if we want to.
	It just takes some effort, that's all.
	You're absolutely right.
	You're right.
	And also, like, knowing what steps we can take as individuals, because also putting pressure on brands to stop supporting these people, like, they have to listen to you.
	You're the consumer.
	Like, they actually do.
	If enough people do it, then, I mean, we've seen in the last year, companies flip-flop around all over the place.
	Yeah.
	You know, they'll come out and say something, and then some right-wing shithead will shoot a beer can.
	No, we didn't mean that!
	Okay, great.
	Cheers, guys.
	Following the money works!
	Following the money works!
	You just have to not be conspiracy theory and goofy about it.
	The deep throat method does indeed work.
	We've established that on this very podcast.
	I love that you mentioned that at the beginning.
	That was fucking perfect.
	Yeah, that was topical.
	I didn't even really... Let's pretend we did that on purpose!
	JK, we wrote that!
	I mean, that was intentional.
	I have zero awareness whatsoever, it's just an old movie I watched the other day while eating some cheese.
	Oh god.
	Alright.
	Well, thank you so much, y'all take care.
	Thank you everybody, we love you very much.
	I appreciate you, love you, love you.
	Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and we'll see y'all next week.
	Bye!

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