Karmelo Anthony, White Flight, and the Bible Belt dissect a Texas stabbing where Austin Metcalf killed his white friend, contrasting this with George Floyd narratives to argue society ignores racial motives when Black men kill whites. Hosts critique modern medicine for allowing genetic conditions to persist while immigration erodes homogeneity, citing FBI stats showing one in 1,300 Black men commit homicide versus one in 11,000 white men. They assert the U.S. faces apostasy due to lax justice and welfare policies that dismantled cohesive communities, urging Christians to seek safety in rural areas rather than immediately forgiving unrepentant offenders like Metcalf. Ultimately, the episode links biblical justice to societal collapse, warning that failing to address these root causes invites further violence. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Content For God's Glory00:03:40
Leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform.
I get it.
It's annoying.
Everybody asks, but I'm going to tell you why.
When you give us a positive review, what that does is it triggers the algorithm so that our podcast shows up on more people's news feeds.
You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.
We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.
All right.
Good afternoon.
We are here.
Good afternoon.
The conference is done.
Thank goodness.
We're back on the track.
Wednesday was our first episode back in the studio since the conference.
Monday, we did a rerun.
We did, well, I mean, it's kind of fitting with today's topic.
So we took an episode that got a lot of attention, a lot of positive attention, a lot of negative attention, per usual, something that was controversial that we don't necessarily think should be controversial.
Tension After The Conference00:08:09
But at the current stage of discourse where we're at as Americans, it It is.
And so we did a replay of an episode that we did on genetics and the gospel.
And today we find ourselves with that, you know, just in the province of God.
We replayed that episode, but here we are four days later.
That was Monday's episode, and now it's Friday.
And we're going to be covering the recent stabbing that just occurred where a young black man stabbed a young white man in the heart and he quickly bled out and died in his twin brother's arms.
And we now have the black community.
Working as hard as they can to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to get this young black man who has admitted to murdering a young white man out of prison because, now this might shock you, but because he's the real victim.
Yeah.
So that's the framework for today's episode.
And Wes, you've prepared today's episode, so we're going to let you go ahead and lead out.
Just for clarity, I think he's admitted to killing him, right?
Yes.
Maybe not admitted to murdering him.
Well, yeah.
He's admitted to stabbing him in the heart.
Yeah.
Yes.
To be fair, we call that, you know, in this house, we call that murder.
But yes, he has admitted to that, and that's where we are.
Yep.
So this happened last Thursday.
It happened a mere three hours about from where we are.
So this is in a suburb of Dallas, a little bit north of it in Frisco, Texas.
And we're talking about, I mean, the greatest pastime in Texas, which is sports.
My goodness, people love their sports here in Texas.
And you had an event that, I mean, how many of these go down every single day?
You have young athletes, young men especially, they're competing.
Austin Metcalf had a number of offers already to D1 colleges, who he's a bright young man looking forward to a career, to a future, hopefully in sports.
And then this happened.
And the altercation, as described by various witnesses, the best I can piece it together is that there was a tent and Austin believed it had been reserved for them.
Carmelo believed he had a right to be there.
And what happened was Carmelo said, Don't touch me or you'll find out or you'll do something.
Because he pushed him?
Just because he asserted that the tent was his space.
So Austin came in, Hey, this is my space, whatever it may be.
Do we have any like.
Validation if he laid hands on him.
So, what happened was it sounds like he touched him.
Like we're talking touch on the shoulder.
I often did that to Carmel.
Exactly.
The white man.
This is our tent.
Yep.
Or even a little bit of aggregation.
It was like, don't touch me.
Don't touch me, you'll find out.
And then he did touch him.
I see.
So, the young black man, he said, don't touch me.
Yeah.
And then he touched him.
But it wasn't like he didn't throw a punch.
Nope.
Yeah, not touching him.
Nope.
He didn't throw a punch.
So, he touched him.
And that is aggregating.
I think if you were to teach your sons, you know, discipline and self control, just in general, be it your brothers at home, be it other athletes, uh, You know, someone says, like, don't touch Marielle.
That's not the type of person to just mess with.
We're going to talk about prudence and wisdom later on.
And so, in response to being touched, several more words were offered, but we're talking like in a matter of seconds.
Yeah.
Like, this was not five minutes of back and forth and verbal, parents are surrounding.
In a matter of 30 seconds, Camarillo reaches in his bag, pulls out a knife, and as we explained in the cold open, sounded like the audio wasn't quite working, but he stabbed him in the heart and he bled out right there.
Camarillo ran away, was quickly picked up by police.
The witnesses identified him.
He, like you said, Michael, he said, yeah, I did this.
But claims to be acting in self defense.
And so this happened last Thursday.
Obviously, we had the conference.
And it's good with stories like these to also wait and see what kind of impact they are having.
How are people thinking about this?
What are they pulling away from it?
But they pulled away from it, kind of a story that's been running through our American ethos for a long time.
And that is the tension between blacks and whites and the accusations and the finger pointing.
If you remember, me and Michael were talking on the way over George Floyd.
So, George Floyd, you had this video, these cops kneeling on his neck.
And what the black community did is they said, here it is.
And what they did is they tied it to the larger trend.
So, you've got an unarmed black man, he's being kneeled on by the cop, execution by the state, and there's thousands.
This was their claim.
I mean, there were some, a number of individuals, they thought 10,000 some black men, unarmed black men, were being killed by police in the United States.
Like when they would do man on the street interviews or whatever.
Exactly.
They were just, this is a pandemic.
This is systemic.
We are just being hunted.
Right.
Now, really, it turned out the Washington Post did an analysis and the true number was 18.
But this type of back and forth has happened again and again.
It has been a central tension.
And this.
Stabbing in this incident was yet another case in a long list of, I think, agregences would be a good term for it.
Of one side looking at the other and say, we've received endless violence, endless assault, endless injustice on our end.
And to be honest, and we'll get to this later in the episode, people might do something about it.
And to kind of demonstrate how aware people are of the political and the racial ramifications of it, let's show this first video, Nate.
This is from Anthony Carmelo's, or I'm sorry, Austin Metcalf's father.
17 year old Austin Metcalf died in his twin brother's arms.
His father, Jeff McCaffrey speaking out about the tragedy, and Jeff joins us now.
First of all, Jeff, let me just start by saying that there aren't words to express how shocked and saddened we are by your loss.
And as a parent of a 14 year old boy and an older man who's now making his own way in the world, I just can't imagine how you're facing the rest of your life without your son.
I wanted to ask you a question.
I know, 17 years old and amazing.
And he was an amazing kid, too.
We'll get you to speak about him in just a moment.
But I think a lot of people at home are saying, wait a second, how does this happen?
He goes to a track meet on Wednesday and is murdered.
What happened?
I wish I had all the answers.
The answer is my son is gone and he'll never come home again.
I want to clarify something right off the start because I've already heard some rumors and gossip.
This was not a race thing and this is not a political thing.
Please do not comment if you do not know what happened.
Try, do not turn this into a racial thing.
It was not.
Do not politicize this.
It's not.
This is a human being thing.
This person made a bad choice and it affected both his family and my family forever.
It's a very unfortunate thing.
But I know exactly what was happening.
His brother was there who tried to save him and he died in his arms.
So if you weren't there, please don't spread rumors.
His twin brother Hunter was there, and as we pointed out at the top of this, his twin brother tried to save him, couldn't save him, and Austin died in his arms.
He spent the last moments of his life in his brother's arms as he went to meet God.
But what did Hunter tell you happened?
Well, the track meet was being delayed.
Each individual high school had their own little tents to go sit under, and they were sitting under the Memorial High School tent.
The individual was saying some words and they turned to him and said, who are you?
And he said, I'm mellow.
And he said, he had a Centennial track sweat on.
He said, hey, man, you're in the wrong spot.
You need to go sit with your team.
Words were then exchanged.
I'm not going to get into the exact details.
I know what my son told me, but they asked him to move.
And when Austin grabbed his backpack to move, take it, he stabbed him in the chest and killed him.
Oh, my gosh.
So that's the side from the father.
And we're not going to pick on the dad here.
That's an incredible loss.
And so I can't imagine.
Yeah, we would certainly, and this has happened before, so I can speak to it as a broader trend.
We've had a lot of times happen where this has happened in England, for example.
There will be a stabbing, and it'll be someone that's an immigrant or a Muslim.
Weaponized Christianity And Justice00:15:34
And they're so quick to come out and say, don't politicize this.
They've actually, there's been different scenarios where it looked like they were even coached that the tragedy happened.
You have some type of police service or some type of NGO on the scene very quickly getting to the parents and saying, you need to come out and you need to be very clear, you cannot make this about race.
Don't say things that would be inflammatory.
Because I think many of them sense, in a way, what we all kind of know tensions are high.
You can't bring in the millions of people that we brought into the United States and into Europe and to Britain.
You can't bring those people in that don't share our culture, many of them not fit for civilized society.
You can't bring them in and expect there not to be resistance when there's fallout.
Where were those NGOs when LeBron James was saying that he can't step outside of his front door without being hunted in the street as a black man by cops?
Like to come out and say, don't make this about race when in 2013, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, uh, you literally had in the reverse, you had the black community being encouraged all the time by organizations, by the media, by politicians, um, to make everything about race.
Like, I remember woke wars, one, I remember 2020.
What it was said.
I remember being a part of Acts 29, you know, and pastors, leaders in the movement trying, you know, to brainwash us with their propaganda and to give this impression that there were just hundreds, if not thousands, you know, some people said thousands of unarmed black men who were just, you know, just like a firing squad, just, you know, just right there executed in the street by some white police officer.
And then we finally get the details and it's like, 18, I think was the number.
18, the water.
18,000, I'm sure.
Nope.
Yeah, yep.
Nope.
18.
18.
And in many of those cases, it was still debatable where somebody is holding something that looks like a weapon, they're reaching into their glove compartment and not being compliant when the officer says, put your hands behind your head.
And so we don't know.
And turns out there wasn't a gun, but the officer doesn't know what he's reaching for, what it is that he's trying to grab.
18.
But we were made to think that it was thousands, that there was just this epidemic, you know, that it was genocide.
That it was literally that there was a black genocide that was happening in our country, and that white people in general and white police officers in specific were the culprits.
And so it was constantly being encouraged to make it racial.
But when a young white boy is stabbed in the heart by a young black boy, immediately it's de escalate.
It has nothing to do with race.
And sometimes Christianity is weaponized.
Oh, you're a Christian?
The Christian thing you have to do is to come out.
And to forgive and to wish no ill harm and wish that he would be taken care of.
They weaponize our own religion for the destruction of our heritage.
Two comments on this.
One, I just want to steel man what the guy said because when I heard this interview the first time, what I heard him saying was Carmelo did not kill my son because my son is white.
Right.
Right.
So, not that we are not, not that we're not supposed to ask questions about the nature of the rift in the country, but mainly, I don't think this was a black on white sort of thing, he killed him because he's white.
That's what I heard the first time.
It's a crime category.
Like, I did this crime, I admit to it.
It's a category that shouldn't even exist.
Right.
Well, it can exist.
Like, you can.
There's crime, it's murder.
You know what I mean?
Oh, as far as like a greater degree of penalty, 100%.
What I'm saying is just, it's, it's, it's, oh, well, this is really bad.
No, I agree with that.
No, murder is murder, theft is theft.
It's just a crime.
Yeah.
I also heard on Aaron that West, there is an actual government agency that goes around and coaches people federally on these sorts of things.
Now, the father was on the news pretty quickly.
We don't know that.
We're not saying he necessarily was coached or not, but this agency in the U.S. actually does exist.
And let me parse out, too, very quickly, because we just had a recent high profile murder, which was Luigi.
So that young man who came out, same thing.
He was Italian, correct?
Yeah.
Another reason we should never let the Italians in here.
But he was Italian and he shot the CEO of United.
Healthcare, and even there, the motive is still murky.
Right.
It had to do with some medical denials, just a you know, flipping the bird to the system.
But that's a different type of uh, in psychology, would be a sociopathic or a psychopathic behavior.
So you're talking premeditated, you're talking, I know the consequences of this, I know that I'll go to prison, I'm okay with those consequences, I've committed my life to doing this terrible act.
So you have those types of crimes psychopathic, sociopathic.
By all accounts, with this murder that we can see, there's another high profile case where a black woman stabbed.
A three year old white boy out front of a supermarket in Ohio.
They had no prior connection.
She had not been stalking the family.
She didn't know him.
It was a crime of passion, of impulse that right in the moment, Carmelo Anthony, me and Michael were talking about this on the way over.
This was a kid who sounded like he actually had a pretty decent upbringing.
He had parents in the home.
You mean Carmelo?
Carmelo Anthony.
Yeah.
So he had a decent upbringing.
He wasn't involved in crime.
He's not from, you know, downtown Detroit.
Kid with a decent upbringing.
And in that moment, so furious, so aggravated, so aggrieved.
That he decided the best response was to stab this man in the chest.
And so, when you're thinking about, and even the Old Testament does this with crimes of accident versus passion, all of those, think about the sociopathic side, which really exists.
And there's real statistics because it'd be easy to say, okay, well, there's this incident, but what about Luigi, you know, an Italian man that shot to death?
Those are different categories.
And that impulsive one, all that to say, people don't leave communities for domestic violence.
So, domestic violence is terrible and it happens.
I'd often be man on woman, so not racially based, but a man being domestically abusive.
Toward his wife or to his girlfriend or to his children.
Those are terrible, but it doesn't disrupt and destroy the trust of a community the way that random impulsive violence does.
When you think about a town and its cohesion, when you think about your children and where they live and them feeling safe, for domestic violence, the only motivation that that would incentivize is, okay, maybe I need to get out of this marriage or maybe I need to.
Right.
But it doesn't say, like, I don't know if I can go to the grocery store.
Right.
Right.
But these kinds of random acts of violence, that's what's running through people's minds.
And real quick, just biblically speaking, you know, we have first degree, second degree, and then we have, you know, third degree or manslaughter in our legal system.
First degree is premeditated.
Second degree is I didn't plan to kill you, but it's a crime of passion.
Right.
So in a moment of rage, I was enraged and elevated to that level.
So I wasn't plotting for weeks and thinking about it, you know, but so this would be kind of second, it would be second degree murder.
And then manslaughter is it was an accident.
Biblically speaking, the old.
Yeah, exactly.
I hit somebody while driving drunk.
There was no malice, you know, there was no, but it was negligence.
It's still my fault.
I'm still responsible for it, but it's my fault by way of negligence, not any level of intent.
Biblically speaking, the Old Testament, second degree murder is not a category.
And I think that's important for the listener to know there's just murder and then there's the manslayer.
There's manslaughter.
What would you say about when the master beats the slave?
So it would be passion, and this is Old Testament specifically.
We're not porting it.
And if he lasts for a couple days, as in rings his clock good, but in a couple days later, he does actually succumb to his wounds, he's not guilty versus he is if he dies nearby.
Would you see maybe a little bit of a parsing there of a passion in a moment?
And if it gets to the point of damage, then it's one thing.
But if it didn't quite happen there in the moment, be a little bit different than straight up murder or accidental?
I would say that that's just not a particularly helpful category because it gets into slavery.
In the Old Testament and property.
And so I think that's different than I'm enraged and just by laying a hand on you at all, I'm already sinning.
You know, that I've already breached what parameters the Lord has assigned to me.
Yes.
Yeah, I think that that's different.
But what I was going to say is that in the case of manslaughter in the Old Testament, there were cities of refuge and they were all set up geographically.
I forget how many, maybe six.
Cities of refuge, where basically they were all set up systematically, geographically, in such a way that they would all be one day's travel.
So, somebody who accidentally killed someone, and the examples that are given is like, you know, like you're on a job site, you know, and you have a hammer and it flies out of your hand and hits someone in the head and kills them.
So, it's not like I was beating my slave and I beat them too much.
It's like purely accidental, purely accidental.
And in those cases, the reason why there were cities of refuge is you would have.
It would be urgent.
You would be on the run for your life because the Avenger of Blood would be the closest of kin, male, closest of kin to the one who was killed.
And it would be within his legal rights to kill you if he found you outside of a city of refuge.
And so you would have to run to the city of refuge.
And then in that city of refuge, one other thing that I'll add this isn't a prison system.
So the cities of refuge are not being supported by the tax dollars of Israel, but rather their own city.
And it's prison ish in the sense that you're confined, you're not allowed to leave.
But within that city, you're walking around freely, you start a business, you start a trade, you're supporting yourself.
That city has its own economy.
Now, it's not going to be a bumbling metropolis, right?
So those cities aren't going to be, they're not going to be as prolific as, you know, or prosperous as other cities in Israel.
It's not Denmark.
But it's not just three meals a day, you know, watching television in a jail cell while a bunch of innocent people who haven't.
Committed any crime are paying for it on their tax dollar.
And then the last thing is when the high priest died, because every high priest, that would be an office for life.
And when he died, except for in some of the rare cases where he disqualified himself, but if he died upon the death of the high priest, then everyone in every city of refuge would have a clean bill and be atoned for.
And they could go back into normal society and leave the city of refuge, and the avenger of blood would no longer have any right to take vengeance on them.
And even this, you know, Matthew Henry says, is a picture of.
The gospel that there was one high priest that upon his death, that all would be atoned for and forgiven.
So that's the system that you have in the Old Testament.
You don't have this first degree and then second degree, and that you just have murder and then you have manslaughter, accidents.
But there's not a bifurcation between first degree and second degree.
So my point is, upon Levitical law in the Old Testament, what Carmelo Anthony did would just be treated as murder.
And biblically, the Noahic covenant, so right after Noah comes off of the ark, you're coming from a race, a group, a humanity that is exceedingly violent.
That's why God judged the earth.
So they get off the ark.
And one of the only commandments, what's established there, is be aware, he who sheds man's blood, the rightful punishment to that is death.
We were talking before the show, and there's some crimes that could be up to death.
Aggravated homosexuality would be one that could be in a Christian state punished by up to, although it would not necessarily require.
But there is one crime that must be.
That must be.
And that's how I would look at the Old Testament.
You know, sometimes people are like, oh, you know, you're going to be too rigid and you're just going to, you know, it's going to be a one to one ratio of dropping Levitical law on any nation today.
And that's not my position.
I would read all those other sins that are not just sins, but also categorized biblically as crimes.
I would say that they should be treated as crimes today.
Both the first and second table of the law should be legislated.
And so blasphemy.
Public blaspheming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the triune God, is not merely a sin but actually a crime.
But some of these sins that could merit the death penalty under Israel are not biblically bound to where they must be given the death penalty.
That there's actually freedom for society to determine is this like a serial repeat offender or is this a one off case and there could be a lighter sentence that's given to such an individual in those cases.
But the Noahic covenant that we have in Genesis chapter 9.
I take that to mean that in the case of murder, it's not just, oh, it's up to the death penalty.
No, it must be the death penalty.
If someone takes someone else's life and it's murder, not an accident, not manslaughter, and first and second degree, there's no biblical variation between the two, you meant to kill them.
And if you meant to kill them and you were successful, then your life must be taken.
Right.
And the Bible's program, so in Leviticus, the number of things that could require the death penalty.
So Incest was one of them.
Molestation of a woman, I'll put it that way.
Murder, absolutely required.
Idolatry, a son that was disobedient to parents.
What's being done there when the capital punishment is prescribed as a possible, if not a required, penalty is what you're doing is you're taking people out of your society.
You're removing, Rush Dooney says this, that the Christian program was the removing of defective persons, that there were people that were prone to criminality.
Prone to violence, prone to murder, prone to deviancy.
And what Israel wasn't to do was to say, well, you can live and you're fine, you just need to go do it somewhere else.
No, it actually said, you need to not have children.
You need, I mean, the case of Achan, we're talking his entire family.
We're actually going to remove your entire lineage and blot it out.
The case of Korah, that God actually sentences Korah and not just his family, but all those who followed him in his rebellion.
He supernaturally opens the earth and it swallows all of them.
Their entire line and lineage is snuffed out.
This is, see, you quoted Rush Dooney, and that's the problem is that, um, Rush Dooney is allowed to say these things.
Right.
Well, it's because he's not here anymore.
That's because he's not here anymore.
But it's frustrating because a lot of people who claim to really appreciate Rush Dooney hate some of the things that Rush Dooney said.
And they always have a reason for why.
Hate Crime Statistics Explained00:13:29
Yeah, but he didn't actually say that thing.
He didn't actually mean it.
You know, like, yeah, he denied the Holocaust for 30 years and just let it ride was perfect.
I mean, he was challenged on it constantly, was perfectly willing to just let it ride for 30 years and then, you know, just.
Barely before the end of his life, he was like, Oh, okay, I'll go ahead and correct that.
Or even his views on intermarriage.
It's like, Yeah, but he didn't really mean that.
Yeah, but he said it.
He did say it.
And so I think the point that you're making, and it's a point that we often just don't want to look at because it's controversial and we're like, No,
But that would mean, like, God is thinking, like, Every single society has some kind of system for removing certain individuals who are not suitable for the flourishing of that society.
Removing or promoting?
They'll either remove or they'll promote traits.
Every society and the people of God in the old covenant were no exception.
You sleep with somebody too closely related.
Your line is cut off from Israel.
You sleep with somebody too distantly related who worships foreign gods, your line is cut off from Israel.
Believe it or not, you eat too much shellfish, and your line is cut off from Israel.
And it's like.
And even in Christendom, so in England, there was the rule of blood.
They had terrible criminality, terrible drunkenness, terrible theft.
And so they instituted up to capital punishment for pickpocketing.
I want to say it was close to 200 years.
Right.
And that's what they had to do to remove an element of criminality.
None of it necessarily ever.
You're wanting to falsely accuse innocent persons.
You're always trying to do justice biblically.
So you have objective witnesses, not just one, but two or three of them.
But I mean, what is the state given the sword for if not to protect?
I don't know, young men gathering on a field to compete in athletics, to protect them from individuals.
And obviously, in this case, Carmella Antling didn't have a criminal record.
But I think of the young man, I think his name was.
I texted it to you today.
It was a five year old boy shot.
Oh, Dylan or?
I have it right here.
But it happened in, I think, Michigan.
And it was a five year old boy who was riding his bike and he was shot in the head by a 25 year old black man with felony drug and weapon charges in front of his two sisters.
What does the state exist for?
What has God given it the sword for?
What has He written a law for if not to protect the innocent and the children and the people in a society?
And it's inconvenient.
It's uncomfortable to think like, yeah, there's criminals and the state must deal with them.
Strongly, go ahead.
Cannon Waddell.
Cannon Waddell.
I think it was about two or three years ago that that happened.
Like, what are we doing if not for that?
Tax handouts?
How's the welfare state going?
How's food stamps working?
Not great.
You're not even doing the thing that you're supposed to do.
Taiwan is the second safest country in the world.
And the reason it is so safe is that it was ruled with brutality for 50 to 60 years by the Japanese, who did not tolerate a single infraction of their rigid discipline.
And it was, I mean, you step out of line, and it was biblically, it would probably be overkill.
But it was, yeah.
Strict punishments for crime is absolutely a factor.
No denying that.
Um, how ethnically diverse is Taiwan?
There's two people that live on the island there's the Chinese that came over from the mainland, and then there's the native people who were there already.
There were several tribes there already.
Um, so actually, there is a bit of diversity, yeah.
There's multiple languages going on, but those origins, so like Japan, but they're both Asian.
Well, yeah, but that's like saying all of Europe is exactly the same, too.
No, I'm not saying they're the same, yeah, but I just think that you know, if you have a country that's made up of um.
But Scottish, English.
Yeah, but I mean, the French and the English fought horribly.
The Taiwanese natives and the Chinese who came over, they had major conflict.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, speaking of justice, let's play the second clip.
This is for.
Sorry, hold on.
Before you do, I have to clarify something.
I was not saying that a crime, a hate crime, should be a valid category of crime.
What I was saying was you can hate someone for a lot of reasons and that inspires you to kill someone.
So that was all I was saying.
Not that hate crime should be a valid factor.
I thought Michael was going to call it in.
He's going to be like, we got him.
Hate crime police through the door.
No.
Not that that should be a factor.
I was just saying it, to go back to my point, I think the father was saying, I don't think this guy killed my son because he hates all white people.
Right.
I don't think that's all I was saying.
I hear.
I think that's what he was saying, that it's not motivated by race.
But the category of hate crime, I know what you're saying, but just for the listener, the category of hate crime, the reason why I despise that category is.
I think in many ways it's the same as the category of racism.
So it's like, well, this is the sin of racism.
And it's like, well, is it racist theft or is it racist murder or is it racist?
Because if it's any of those things, then we already have a category it's theft, it's murder.
And I think even the whole category of a hate crime is the assumption that preference, Is inherently sinful in and of itself.
And I think that's a problem, especially when it comes to legislating law.
The question is did you commit a crime?
Not trying to decipher your inward motives of the heart.
Exactly.
It really doesn't matter why you did it.
What matters is what actions you took.
That's what matters when it comes under the law.
When you stand before God, He'll sort all that out.
God will ultimately unveil every.
Hidden thought.
We see that in scripture.
Because hate is a sin, but it's not a crime unless it's a crime.
Exactly.
But theft is and murder is.
And so, in terms of a legal apparatus, to try to tack on extra penalties for this inward category of, well, we think that you were motivated, we're going to try to decipher your motives and that you were motivated by prejudice towards this person or that person.
That is quite literally the thought police.
Right.
And that's a problem in terms of biblical justice.
It's biblical.
It's introducing a new category of sin and saying this category of sin is incumbent upon you.
And actually, I won't even let you stand for yourself.
I'll interpret your actions in that light and accuse you of this sin that I made up.
I'm going to assume omniscience.
Yes.
It's a big problem.
Yeah.
Let's play the second clip.
This is from one of the prosecutors in Collin County where the murder occurred.
It's not unusual in the aftermath of a crime for there to be a lot of publicity about it.
Ultimately, that'll be a judge's decision to make at the time of trial.
But yes, I want to hear this happened in Collin County.
I want Collin County citizens to be able to decide this.
I'm not here anymore.
And I don't understand it.
Their personal address has been exposed.
They have received graphic and racist threats.
That would not be something that we could do even if we wanted to.
So, right there, that would not be something that we could do even wanting to.
He's talking about the death penalty, but he's also talking about life without parole.
So, to put this practically, in 25 years or less, three hours away, obviously, who knows where he actually gets sent to prison, Carmel Anthony will be back on the street.
He'll have a terrible track record.
You're assuming he gets convicted?
Wow.
Daniel Penny, I want to say, was the end of Black Lives Matter.
Let the record state when this episode gets real intense, that comment right there is responsible for it.
Go ahead.
Yep.
But he's going to be, he's 20, so he's 17 right now, 25.
You're at 22, 32, 42.
You'd have a 42 year old man, no work history, a murderer, as best we can tell.
We're not omniscient, as best we can tell from multiple witnesses and the state itself saying the same thing.
You'll have a murderer back on the street.
And let me.
And he'll be around our daughters.
That's right.
And let me.
Around your daughters.
Let's add to it though, real quickly.
It's not just a murderer with no work experience and just this 25 year gap in his resume.
Number one, it could be much shorter, much shorter, like what Michael said.
That's if he gets 10 years on good behavior.
Number two, it could also be shorter 10 years on good behavior.
What would that good behavior be?
I don't know.
Maybe he kills another white inmate in the prison.
And knowing our system, they say, hey, that's good behavior.
One less white person.
You're doing good work.
You're doing good work, doing the Lord's work, killing those whiteies.
So we'll give you 10 years.
Being a little facetious there, but not much.
You need to clarify that you're being facetious.
Being a little facetious, but sometimes, I mean, in 2020, I'm not saying that would happen under Trump necessarily, but in 2020 and 2021, that's how it felt.
It literally felt like politicians and corporations and NGOs and all that, like that, that the goal really was to basically whittle down the number of white people.
And it still feels that a little bit, not necessarily Trump's administration directly.
But I do think that there are some concerns there.
So that's a hyperbolic, facetious example.
But the point is he could be out on behavior.
He could get out on good behavior in 10 years.
But here's what I wanted to add to that.
So not only would he have no job history and the fact that he is a murderer, but in addition to that, you would have 10 years, or if he goes the full 25, 25 years of being cultivated and shaped further towards criminal activity by our prison system.
Our prison system does not change people for the better.
I thought it was all about reform.
No.
It's taking the worst people in society, putting them in close quarters to where they're all inclined to degrade further, not to improve.
And so, even just our prison system, the idea of you're going to do time in a prison system and then come back out, in my assessment, that system.
Is a massive liability, a massive liability because our prison system is not designed for reform or for self improvement.
And this gets into some of the biblical, but at the same time, I don't want to be an ideologue, because you can only do what you can do today.
So you got to start.
So today, yeah, we need more people in prison, not less.
And I acknowledge that.
But as we're moving forward, The idea of prison, especially if it's prison for life, it should be the death penalty.
And if it's not prison for life, then we've got to find some other penalty, whether it's restitution.
And restitution, just for the record, it's like, okay, well, how do you pay restitution if you did this thing and you're already impoverished and you don't have the money to give restitution?
Well, slavery.
Debtors' slavery.
A debtor's slavery.
Yes.
It's not you and your children forever because of, you know, just because of skin color.
Was it?
Was it?
But it is also until the year of Jubilee under the law?
Yeah, like every 15 years.
I think for all the Israelites, though.
Oh, yeah.
So that's right.
Foreign slaves could be kept in perpetuity, their entire bloodline.
But your Israelites were not.
But there wasn't the same debtor slavery for foreigners.
Right, right.
Yeah.
But slaves purchased, those could be kept in perpetuity if they were not Israelites.
So the point is, like, our system is.
Our system is not fixing the problem.
It's making the problem worse.
We have anti white discrimination on the books from universities, certainly within the media.
But anti white discrimination, we've all been shaped by that from the time that we were born.
For decades, America has elevated every single people, but belittled.
White people.
And so we already have, we're on the backdrop of that context.
And then you add, you know, prison in the mix, loose on crime policies.
And then whenever we are tough on crime, it immediately gets painted as, well, that's racism, right?
Biblical Penalties And Racism00:04:44
Like all the tough on crime from the 80s and the 90s and those kinds of things.
It's like, well, this is racist.
It's like, no, this is not racist.
And if it's disproportional, Well, then it's not because of racism.
It's because a certain type of person is choosing to engage in more criminal activity.
And it is what it is.
And I hope it's not that way forever.
But that's not our fault.
Well, think of the mercy of the Old Testament caning system.
So, not for murder, but for different types of offenses of violence or miscreant behavior.
They were caned in public, and that is brutal.
But the way the brain works is that inhibition is a critical.
Brain skill.
Like when you're children, like why are toddlers so emotional?
Well, their prefrontal cortex hasn't developed very well to the point where they can restrain behavior.
Anthony Aaron Hernandez, he was a New England tight end and he actually gunned down two men in cold blood.
I remember that.
They did an autopsy on his brain and all the impact that he'd taken from football had destroyed much of it.
And so he couldn't even answer for why he didn't murder.
It wasn't precalculated.
He gunned people down.
And so with the Old Testament and a caning system, what it did is it took people that didn't have impulse control and it administered something brutal.
Now, you'd be done in an afternoon.
You'd be recovering for a week or so.
But those psychological experiences, we know from psychology that negative reinforcement is a huge deterrent.
That the brain itself says, I did X.
I punched someone in the face at the checkout at Walmart.
I engaged in this behavior.
I sold illicit drugs.
I didn't go to prison and lose my life for 20 years.
And I wasn't given the death penalty.
But I got beat so bad that I never, in public, want to do that again.
And the brain itself, at a biological level, says, I have got to have some breaks on this because I don't ever want to repeat that experience.
Well, and it's the mercy of that system to beat those people in public.
They recover, they walk again.
And people just because people will think what you're saying is extreme and it's not.
They'll say, like, oh, that's inhumane and I can't believe, you know, beating someone in public.
No, what's inhumane is treating someone like a pet, putting them in a cage, feeding them three times a day with food and water, giving them a walk within a dog kennel, an hour of yard time.
Giving them a little bit of yard time where they can go outside and run and get some exercise and then putting them right back in the kennel.
Right back inside the cage with their three meals a day and everybody else paying for it.
And if you're smaller, you're the receiving end of other abuses.
That's what we do with animals.
That's what we do with dogs.
So this is not inhumane.
It's actually far more humane to say you either did something that merits the death penalty, in which case you don't go on the taxpayer's dime for life in prison.
No.
There's not a restitution system for a murder.
Right.
Because you can't bring the person back.
There's no way in this life to.
To restore that, and you know, I think it was Rush Duny also who said, in the case of murder, um, it's something that can't be put right, and part of the reason for the death penalty, life for life, is because the only one who can put it right, um, is God.
And so, in the case of a murderer, uh, what we have to do is our human courts are insufficient, so we have to immediately transfer them to a higher court, aka, uh, hanging right, you know, tall tree, short rope, and uh, and that's how you transfer them.
To a higher court, a heavenly court where God is able to exact true justice, fair justice.
And you would live in a safer world.
You would.
And then, apart from that, it would be restitution.
That's another biblical penalty.
Or it would be caning, beating.
But in that case, it's far more humane.
The person maintains their freedom.
The person is then allowed back into society, but with a huge, massive deterrent.
Sure.
For ever committing that crime again.
None of the rest of the nation is penalized.
He's the guy who committed the crime.
Why are all of us being penalized with our tax dollars?
Because now we have to feed him and house him.
No, he still has to feed and house himself.
And if he does it again, he's beat again.
And at a certain point, to being a serial offender, then his life is taken.
And societies that have behaved this way now, the Bible tells us how to do it humanely or, better put, righteously.
In a way that is actually pleasing to the Lord, that meets God's standards of justice.
Righteous Execution Standards00:04:10
But every successful society throughout human history always did this.
Israel, under the old covenant, did it righteously and therefore humanely.
And we look at it and we say, oh my gosh, I can't believe they did that.
That's so harsh and this is so terrible.
And they had slaves or they beat people or the death penalty.
No, what Israel did is what, well, they never obeyed, but what Israel was supposed to do.
Is what God considers righteous.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
God is righteous.
The libtard next door is not.
So I don't care if he finds Leviticus offensive.
He thinks that drag queen story hour is permissible.
Okay, so I don't care about your booze.
I've seen what you cheer for, right?
So who cares what that person says?
But God says that it was righteous.
But my point is, even pagan societies outside of Old Covenant Israel that still found ways to achieve success.
Now, they didn't do it righteously.
I want to be clear about that.
They did it in brutal ways that the Lord does not see favorably, that the Lord does not approve of.
But every society that was successful, Whether it be Israel under the old covenant, or whether it be the Romans, or whether it be the Greeks, or in every society.
The old Germanic tribes?
What the old Germanic tribes.
And in every case of successful society and civilization, what they did, what they did, whether righteously or not, is they culled society from its reprobates.
They went to society and they said, You're a loser, you're a loser, you're a loser, you're a loser, and you don't get to reproduce.
Right?
And I know that that's controversial.
And how you do that absolutely matters.
There are sinister, pagan, wicked ways of doing that.
Absolutely.
For instance.
Yes.
But here's the deal.
And this kind of gets into our conversations about genetics, and it'll get into us talking a little bit about race today.
And we want to be careful with this topic.
But here's the deal the great post millennial hope.
This is something I wrestle with.
I'm going to lay some cards on the table.
This is something I wrestle with.
The great post millennial hope, and I believe it's good and right, and I believe it's the will of God.
But there are people alive today genetically, and I'm not talking about right now inclinations towards crime, but I'm talking about asthma.
Okay, so I'm going to start there for a second.
I'm going to talk about diabetes.
I'm going to talk about those kinds of things, certain illnesses and sicknesses and physical conditions that just wouldn't have lived in times past, not that long ago.
You know, they just wouldn't have lived.
And therefore, because they wouldn't have lived, they wouldn't have reproduced.
They wouldn't have offspring.
They wouldn't have a lineage.
But we're at the point now where it's not only that we've been able to not necessarily cure some things we can cure, others we're not able to cure, but we're able to just kind of mitigate the side effects, the most severe of the side effects, to where the person can have a life.
But those genes are passed down.
And so we have a lot of people alive today that wouldn't have been alive in previous generations.
And I see that for the record.
Again, I am glad.
I am glad that nine out of 10 children don't die in childbirth.
Praise God.
I'm glad that my wife has had five children and she's still alive because a lot of women died in childbirth.
Not just the babies, but the mothers.
I'm so grateful for all of these things.
We have a child in our church who was born almost 20 weeks prematurely and lived.
Praise God.
And is going to have a normal life.
And so praise God for that.
But not only have we medically, so that's the medical side, but in addition to that, we have also taken the most degenerate people in the world and let them by the millions into the country.
Real Solutions For Global Issues00:12:08
And then re catered our justice system for lesser penalties, stricter penalties.
We'll throw the whole weight of the law against the native.
European citizen, but we're going to have lesser penalties for different minority groups and for illegal immigrants.
And we're actually with illegal immigrants.
We're going to give incentives to come here.
We're going to take taxpayers of the native citizens and pay for housing and pay for this and pay for that.
Yeah, you can't do that and think that society is not going to go to hell in a handbag.
There are plenty of places.
This is the tough part of the conversation, but there are places that are not Christian.
They are not predominantly Christian.
And yet, they're homogenous and strict on crime.
And you would be safer there than in our Christian nation.
Right.
But I hear what you're saying, but we've said for a long time that we're an apostate Christian nation.
We're not applying the law.
Like a lot, maybe not everything that you're saying, but a lot of what you're saying would be mitigated if we had actual justice in the society.
Amen.
But my point is there are places that aren't Christian and who are doing that.
They are sure they are applying justice, sure.
And so, what I'm saying, yes, we are absolutely these United States are in full blown, like unadulterated apostasy against the Lord Jesus Christ.
There's no question about that.
And if we weren't, we'd be doing things better.
No question about that.
But my point is that per capita, we still have more people who would profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ than other places, and yet there are other places that still.
Would not be experiencing some of the things that we're experiencing, just like Japan.
We have way more Christians in America than Japan.
And we also have way more crime in America than Japan.
Because you still do very hard on crime.
Yes, very hard on crime.
That's part of my point.
My point was twofold hard on crime and homogenous.
But Vermont, for instance, Vermont is not the most Christian state in the Union.
There are states.
Bad gun laws.
There are states in the South.
That are far more per capita, far more professing Christians, and even not just professing, but those who attend church every single week.
Have stricter abortion laws.
Right.
Like we could look at Georgia.
Right.
I guarantee you there is more church attendance, Christian church attendance in Atlanta than there is in Vermont.
Which place is safer for your daughters to live?
What percent of Vermont is black?
Ask me.
What percent of Vermont is black?
About 1.5%.
Same with Maine and New Hampshire.
Well, I thought it was their gun laws that they didn't have shootings.
Well, here in Texas, it's the safest state in the union because we have open carry.
Oh, wait.
Right.
These are the things that Christians are going to have to.
Let's skip forward for just a second, then we'll come back because I know, Wes, you prepared the episode, and I don't want to miss some important pieces, but I think it would be helpful for the listeners to skip forward for a moment.
The reason that I want to have these conversations is because these conversations will be had with or without Christians.
If you think.
That Joel Webbin and Right Response Ministries is opening the can of worms, and that we're the ones who are pushing the ball forward and inciting these kinds of conversations about race.
You're dumb.
You are a fool.
These conversations are happening with or without us, have been happening, other people talking about it all the time.
We've addressed the topic twice.
Maybe three times, very sparingly and very carefully whenever we do address the topic.
My concern, this is my concern, is that I think that we are getting closer and closer to a point where people are going to say, that's enough.
Yeah, 100% we're getting there.
That's enough.
And I know what the pace is.
That's enough.
I'm going to go to the HOA and no.
No.
I'm going to write a strongly worded letter.
My representative is going to hear it.
No.
No, I'm saying that's enough.
The only reason I think we might not be getting there is because England is not going to hit that point.
Well, there's a reason why we left England.
I agree.
And why they lost the war for England.
So you're eating toast and beans for breakfast.
Largely, I completely understand what you're saying.
So I think we're coming there.
I think it's happening.
It's going to happen.
And it's already happening.
These kinds of conversations.
And I think my concern is that I, you know, when I fire up the old internet and get on X, you know, or go look at Rumble, you know, or these conversations are being had and something will eventually be done.
And my fear is that it's going to be done without Christians.
It's going to be done despite Christians.
You mean, you don't mean they're going to do the things we're thinking of and we're not going to be part of it.
No, I mean, they're going to do it.
You mean without the influence of the wisdom of God.
They're going to do.
Terrible things that we wouldn't do.
Yes.
That we would actually be able to offer biblical solutions that are pleasing to the Lord.
And we're talking real solutions.
Like I saw a woman this week.
She's like, What we need in crime ridden areas is to put a library at the center so people can learn and read more.
No.
I'm not even kidding.
But we're talking like real solutions.
Like this criminality and this crime, specifically from the black community, needs a real law, justice, order.
Something actually needs to be done.
Real solutions.
Yes.
So that's my concern.
It's the same concern.
Race, feminism, Zionism.
Those three.
So I've said the same thing when we addressed the topic of feminism if Christians refuse to go there and have these conversations, what you get is Andrew Tate.
What you get is the red pill.
What you get, because the toothpaste is not going back in the tube.
Everybody is seen in real time.
Whoa, there's a problem.
I'm sure the red pill guys treat their wives as co heirs in the grace of life, correct?
No.
I'm sure, I'm certain.
Oh, wait, that would be helpful on the patriarchy side?
Right.
To have men with scripture to understand the proper relation?
That's interesting.
Yeah.
You want a well ordered society where you can go to the park and not feel like you're in danger, or we could just have a normal cost of living.
And you don't have to pay 50% more or 100% more than everybody else just to be safe, then you need real solutions.
You need to pay $200,000 more for a home.
But you want those real solutions and for them still to be strict but righteous solutions, then you need Christians.
And Christians just aren't willing to do it.
Christians will not seriously, meaningfully engage in the conversation.
About men and women, they won't meaningfully engage in the conversation about Israel and they won't meaningfully engage in the conversation about race.
Yep, they won't.
And so, what's going to happen and what is happening is that pagans will fill in the gap and you will get red pill when it comes to men and women, you will get something when it comes to uh Israel, and uh, and then you're going to get the red pill equivalent.
When it comes to race, you don't want the red pill equivalent.
When it comes to race, they'll have statistics too.
That's the thing is, the pagan on that other side, he'll bring these same statistics.
It'll be his solution then that goes beyond what God would allow.
So we're saying we've got the same statistics.
We're allowed to talk about them.
We're allowed to talk about it.
You know, black men commit violence at this level, et cetera.
The crazy thing is what you mentioned.
It was in the cold open that nobody heard because it wasn't working, but that black women murder at a higher rate than white men.
So per capita, so someone can look and say, but wait, on it.
No.
But per capita, so per 100,000 black women, They have a higher murder rate than white men.
So it's not just, we already, and that's the thing everybody's comfortable saying that men, most people are comfortable saying that, you know, men have a much higher propensity towards violence than women.
And that's true.
And we would say that it's not just true because of behavior and it's not just true because of education, because men and women are being educated in the same schools and, you know, the same curriculum, which honestly, I don't really like that.
You want to talk about segregation?
I would love.
In schools to segregate men and women, honestly, and that would just make me a moderate from 100 years ago.
That's what C.S. Lewis thought.
That's what, you know.
So, but the point is, it's not education, it's not all these other factors, it's biological.
Men are different than women, and therefore, men have greater strengths and they also have certain greater weaknesses that women don't have.
And men are more likely to commit violent crimes than women are.
And yet, with the black community, per capita, Black women murder at a higher rate than white men?
That's shocking.
It's not convenient.
That is shocking.
So then, what do you do with that?
And there's a lot of people who know what to do with that.
Right.
But not a lot of Christians.
A lot of Christians, you can't talk about the Christian solutions if you're walking around.
It's like Alex Jones, every time he talks about the globalists, he's like, Who are they?
Who are the globalists?
I don't know who the globalists are.
It's Klaus Schwab and the Marxist globalists.
Yeah, George Soros and the Marxist globalists.
And it's like, yes, but also, and it's the same kind of thing that Christians will do.
Like, oh, well, it's just this or it's just that.
And I'm not saying it's simple.
I think it's multifaceted.
I think there's a lot of factors at play.
But to not talk about different peoples, Is, I think, just as silly as not talking about the differences between men and women.
Men and women are different, and different peoples are different.
And for the record, I'm not saying that different peoples, the difference is just as serious or significant as the difference between men and women.
I think that the biological difference between men and women with gender is a very significant difference.
But I do think that there are differences between nations.
And that has to be a part of the Christian conversation.
And it should be a conversation that's had in love and with charity and with hopefulness.
But if you can't even talk about that, then we're not going to be able to solve it.
And if we can't solve it because we won't even admit that there's a problem, then I know a lot of people who are more than willing to step in and solve it.
And they're not Christians, and their solutions are brutal.
So we should go to our first commercial break and we'll be right back.
Faith In Family Banking00:02:18
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Reese Fund exists in order to see the Ten Commandments properly applied, not just as a plaque on the wall, but to actually be used in business as though they're commandments from God that we're supposed to obey.
Our goal is to find businesses and to buy them and to build them up.
We want to find manufacturing businesses and use them to make sure that we can maintain our capacity to do things here.
Reese Fund.
Christian capital, boldly deployed.
Welcome back.
I just got to say, it was great seeing David Reese at the conference.
He is awesome.
He was here.
He had a great debate.
David Reese has two assistants who only refer to him as Mr. Reese.
Oh, everyone.
And he stands around and just talks to the average guy for hours and hours and hours.
Michael, don't give Joel any ideas here.
Everyone in his businesses, everyone in his workplace, they all have to say Mr. and Mrs. Tui.
Not just to him, but to each other.
Oh, interesting.
And he does the same.
Okay.
So he just sees it as a sign of discipleship.
But he also does see it as an employer.
Hip Hop And Segregation00:15:01
Right.
He views it as a part of his employment and his status under God as an employer to lead, to not just lead financially with business savvy, but also spiritually.
So he takes it upon himself.
He sees employers as being responsible for discipling.
Sure.
And so discipleship is part.
So there is a special honor that's given to him as the employer.
But he has that as the rule across the board for everyone, including himself it's Mr. It's Mrs. So even when I'm emailing with his assistant, I don't always remember to do it, but Mrs. Every time she's like, Mr. Reese, it's never David.
It's always Mr. Reese.
And then one time I sent him an email on Sunday.
Ooh, uh oh.
Dave, mistake.
He was charitable, but I caught myself.
Oh, snap.
I want to apologize, but I can't send them another.
So I waited until Monday morning and then, you know, uh oh.
Well, actually, Sunday night when the sun went down.
Sorry, sorry for talking business on the Sabbath.
That's my bad.
Yep.
All right.
So, true to the title, we wanted to get into what happened in the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s, because that fomented and created a lot of what we understand today in our race relations.
I really don't think they were as bad in times past.
Can I share a little bit about Detroit in the 1880s and 90s?
Please.
So, Detroit and Chicago in the 1880s and 90s, there had been a contingent of freed.
Blacks in America who were not from the South.
They didn't necessarily, they either had been freed, emancipated earlier on, or maybe had won their own freedom.
And a number of them migrated to Detroit and Chicago.
And at the time, there weren't even really enough of them to have black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods.
And what's surprising is in Detroit and Chicago, which we think now is like you've got the black ghettos and you've got the white neighborhoods.
And at the time, they just lived among the white families.
They sent their kids to the same schools.
They actually went to the same dinner parties, the same social clubs.
When blacks were allowed to vote, a lot of these neighborhoods actually voted for.
A black neighbor who is a man of good standing in their community, to be an alderman or on the city council or things like this.
And so, actually, there was a point in the cities that are now some of the most tense cities where the tension that we see now actually was almost non existent.
Yep.
If you trace, I went through and looked at by decade, for example, like the percentage black in the United States, a little bit higher in 1900, but it really doesn't change all that much.
We're not looking at the crime that happened in the 60s and 70s and 80s that led to suburban sprawl.
We're not looking at that as a massive influx, for example, of immigration from Africa.
They've actually had a pretty consistent presence here since our earliest times.
And to your point, I would definitely contribute that to our Christian hegemony, our European hegemony, strong rule of law.
Late 1800s, and not so much in the South with what they did with Reconstruction, but in the North, there was actually a decent milieu of decent relations, of low criminality.
And we'll get into it in a minute.
But there's a number of different factors and outside forces that came in and destroyed something that actually was working decently well, I would say.
That this wasn't always a For 250 years, always ever.
Now, certainly, you have the Emmett Tills, you have the stories, and white people have done the same thing pelted a boy with rocks in Chicago Beach until he drowned.
This was in the late 1940s.
He couldn't swim.
His raft went over to the White Side.
They pelted him with rocks.
So, there's been those stories certainly throughout the time.
But by and large, on the whole, there have been cities, states, places, and epochs where race relations were much less worse than they are right now, where criminality wasn't a factor, and where you didn't have A track meet, something you're celebrating, your son's competing in a championship, and I don't know, will he get stabbed in the heart?
So, what was the difference?
We can continue.
Many different things.
The difference was there was just greater social cohesion.
There were a lot of other things.
Like, one of the things that's happening now is as social cohesion breaks down, we don't have a common religion anymore, we don't have a common culture.
And so, people are latching on to things like, well, we've got to have a common race now.
Before that, that was not as necessary of a thing to prioritize.
Yep.
And so, what you had happen is you had World War II.
And World War II, in many ways, I mean, every single man that you could just about muster, he's all fighting in the war, he's involved in some type of logistics.
And so, World War II, in many ways, is this great kind of reset point.
And what happened was a lot of blacks in the South, we'll talk about the global South here in a minute, they migrated to northern cities.
You spoke about Chicago and you spoke about Atlanta and Baltimore, St. Louis would be another one, some of those getting more towards the South.
Is there was a huge migration and they left mostly rural occupations.
So they were employed much broadly across.
So you're not looking at just packed in, very high density per square mile, but you're looking at individuals that are engaged in different types of agricultural, which that's what the South largely is.
We don't have a New York.
We don't have a Philadelphia.
We don't really have a Boston.
I mean, New Orleans is just, it's much smaller.
And so they left a very rural lifestyle and there's a huge migration due to the availability of manufacturing jobs.
I mean, the US, because we didn't have a war occurring on our soil, We were just positioned in a space to be the supplier of the world, the manufacturing capital of the world.
And so a lot of blacks migrated and they came together closely and tightly.
And very quickly on the heels of that, after the end of World War II, 1948, you have the 1950s and the 60s, the Great Migration, you have the Civil Rights Act.
So you have desegregation, you have the Civil Rights Act, and you have Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society, the massive outpouring of dollars into the community.
Now, me and Michael have disagreed on this some.
There are biological and there are cultural factors at play.
So some people would like to say, well, it's only the music or it's only this or the other.
And I think that falls short, but also biological.
Well, there's just a predisposition that we can't get over.
Well, no, that's not the full picture either.
But both of them really came together when you had in the 60s and the 70s.
You brought them into the cities, and what you experienced was high rates of crime.
Right, because you just to understand, because you had the biological differences previously without nearly this severe of problems.
So, like Rhodesia is an African state that Britain colonized, incredibly productive.
Right.
It was run by the British, but they married the British.
Well, I'm even saying, but here in America, like there was a point where there wasn't nearly as high rates of fatherlessness.
Exactly.
There wasn't a ton of black on white crime.
There wasn't even as much black on black crime.
It was always, to be fair, from the research I've been able to do, and it's hard because they didn't categorize crimes by race as much back then.
But it was always a little bit higher than the white rate, but not the drastic difference that we see now.
Right.
But there was, I think you were avoiding saying this, Wes, but not that this is the only factor, but I'm just trying to understand myself.
And get the picture.
So you didn't have hip hop and rap, things that were funded in large part by Jews.
Yep.
In the 80s and the 90s, they were funded intentionally to degrade that culture.
Yep.
Like Jews, whether it was the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King being a puppet of a lot of Jewish Marxists to weaken the US.
Like I went back and read a little bit of Malcolm X.
Yeah.
Kind of like him.
Yeah.
He actually had some decent stuff.
We were saying on the way over that.
We think the black community would be served a lot better with a leader like him rather than the Al Sharptons or the Jesse Jacksons.
If he had one, like going back, like, because they always paint him as like he's the extremist.
Right.
You know, and Martin Luther King is this honorable pastor.
Right.
But no, like Martin Luther King was terrible and he was a puppet of a bunch of Marxist Jews.
Right.
So whether it's hip hop, which is just like, hey, go in and do this and do that, commit this crime, murder that person, you know, like literally the lyrics of the songs.
A lot of that was Jewish influence, and then the Civil Rights Act, Jewish influence.
And then LBJ, of course, with welfare and those things.
And this is alleged, so I'll say alleged.
But it is, many people have said that LBJ said, with this litigation, with these policies, I'll have those N words voting Democrat for the next 200 years.
And if he didn't say it, still nailed it.
It was still true.
It was still true.
Nailed it 90%.
Vote Democrat.
Because of, and that's a big part of it.
And if he did say it, they used to vote Republican.
I know.
And it was within about one election.
Before the party swap?
Yes.
So you have welfare to get black people to vote for Democrats.
You have Jews behind hip hop.
You have Jews behind the Civil Rights Act.
Who brought them here in the first place?
And who brought them here?
We financed large parts of the transatlantic slave trade.
So you have the transatlantic slave trade, and it's like, oh, the white people are terrible.
Well, a particular type of white person.
There's one other thing there, too.
Go ahead.
And that is that with the mass immigration that started in the 60s, there have been studies that showed that, as much as that took jobs away from white people, it really took jobs away from black people who were performing, who were doing lower skilled jobs in urban areas where most of the immigrants were coming to.
Right.
So the point is just the reason I'm saying all these things is I'm trying to give some bona fides here and saying that we all acknowledge, myself included, that it is a multifaceted, there are multiple different contributors to.
To the problems that we now face as a society with black crime.
And so I'm sitting here saying I will be one of the first to acknowledge that it's not just things that are internal to the black community.
I'm more than happy to blame Jews.
But no, there are other things as well.
There are other hip hop, all these different things, welfare was treated.
They've exploited predispositions that they had already.
Yes.
Yes.
Blacks in America have typically been dependent upon a type of benevolent.
State or a type of landowner.
And so that for 200 years, well, this is who gives me money.
This is who provides my work.
This is who gives me a handout for a moment.
But for a moment, it's a self reliant spirit.
Brief as it was, and it wasn't that brief between two world wars.
But for a moment there, you had at least the greatest degree in American history of black independence, where there's freedom from slavery.
There's not a welfare state, just replacing one plantation with another.
Um, so in between plantations, um, you know, before you got you know the old democrats and now the new democrats, you know, democrats have always loved oppressing the you know uh the black community and they've always been good at it, but with that, you know, there was a moment of of reprieve and it wasn't that brief, and and there were places where there really were that there was flourishing like healthy marriages, and there were some moments where um, actually a higher marriage rate,
right, remaining marriage than with white people, right, and so.
So, what I'm trying to say is that there are other things.
Biology is part of it, but there are other things.
But I was going to add one more.
I said all that to say this so people don't think that I'm just saying, oh, it's just this.
It's just this.
I'm not saying it's just this, but I think that we're just not being honest.
If Christians aren't honest about these things, they're going to go to the pagans.
They're not going to listen to us.
So, one other factor is segregation.
One other factor, whether it was legislated, like official, formal, Or even just naturally, black people living among black people, white people living among white people.
And there was incredible, from what I've read, incredible industry and developments that black people were doing, and that they were successful.
The marriage rate was high.
Children were growing up with a father in the home.
They were making money.
They were developing this, that, and the other.
And then it all came crashing down with civil rights, with welfare, with all these different things.
But during that time where there was so much success, my point is, you didn't have the exploitation of Jewish psyops with hip hop and rap and Martin Luther King, who was a Jewish puppet, you know, and all that.
You didn't have those things, but also you did, to be fair.
So that's a huge factor.
But another factor is you did have a much higher degree of segregation.
Michael pointed out that in African countries, they're still not as safe comparatively to Russia or European, but they have somewhat lower rates of murder.
Some of them do.
Some of them do.
And some of what that would contribute to is homogeneity.
It's very difficult.
Stephen Wolf talks about this.
We have a natural affinity for people that look like us, talk like us, that we've shared history with.
And so when you have a group of people, here's what's kind of cool, kind of just a natural thing that God's made the world.
Like a lot of Italians go to Little Italy.
Well, I'm going to have some type of relation to it.
I'm going to patron its restaurants.
I'm going to live there.
Little China, Chinatown in Philadelphia.
Like blacks have black entertainment television, their own type of music, their own type of sporting events.
They even tend to live like there's a black section of this town or there's a black community or black neighborhood.
It seems, generally speaking, that the way God arranged people is that.
All else being equal will live near people that are like us.
If all else is equal, but go ahead, Michael.
That the like black entertainment that's pretty new, right?
Like, well, like, I would say when TV jazz, yeah, but white people would go and dance to jazz in jazz halls, white people would play jazz, rare white people.
L right there, jazz is cool.
Um, but piano is better.
My point is, back when we had three television stations.
Everyone watched what was on TV.
It was just American television.
And there was maybe the Cosmies on, but then black people watched, you know, Gilligan's Island or, you know, whatever was on.
Like that was, it wasn't always a niche market for every single subgroup.
And that's part of, that's not just a racial relations thing.
That's just, you can be totally into whatever kind of music you want anymore.
Like there'll never be another major band that everyone or another major TV program that every single person in the country.
Watches or knows or listens to, like that's just kind of over.
Homicide Rate Disparities00:05:35
Yes, it is.
That's why for the worst, there's such a desire, like with someone like Taylor Swift, to use her.
Yep, as because she's kind of a guy in our church who's really insightful.
I remember he said she's the last syringe, yep, you know, where you can just inject all of society with one person, you know, like, yep, because we're now entering a time when everyone stops making movies.
That'll be it.
Yep, like we are very close to where there will be no celebrities of that caliber.
All we'll have is just a bunch of micro celebrities.
I get my news from, you know, Right Response.
I get my news from over here.
I listen to this bluegrass, you know, artist.
And it's like, really?
How many fans do you have?
1,500.
Isn't that a lot?
Can you believe it?
Like, can you believe it?
No, that atomization is happening all over.
But all the way back, the reason we're talking about this white flight in the 60s and the 70s, and crime really peaked in the 80s and 90s, as far as the inner cities.
That was about 20 years after we removed the black fathers from the households.
Remove the black fathers from the households, civil rights.
With welfare.
With welfare.
Yeah.
With the welfare system.
And so, all that being said, all the factors, biology is a part of it.
Like, to be clear, biological propensities do exist.
Now, they can be managed well by having good rule of law and everything like that.
But when that erodes, I think of Psalm 11, when the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?
When you live with a civil magistrate that's going to throw up its hands, when a criminal murders someone, put them back on the street with our daughters in 20 years for good behavior, one of the things you're going to have to start consider where do I live?
It's not a sin for a Christian to pull the demographics of a town they're considering to live in and factor that into their equation.
What street am I going to go on?
Is my neighborhood gated?
That's a good thing.
You are permitted, if not as a father, especially with children and with a wife, with family, not just permitted, but in many senses, depending where you live, depending on where you live and your financial ability and to talk to your sons.
Like Michael, you have children that are older.
The big question to ask is just pull up a map and, like, how many miles away is our house from Martin Luther King Street?
Oh, my word.
You're downtown and you just.
Isn't it ironic, though?
I always think it's so ironic that Martin Luther King, every town in America has a street named after him, and it tends to be the highest density crime area.
Yeah, I'll take your word for it.
I didn't do that in every city.
It just turned out hard to believe.
Everybody instinctively knows.
Hit those locks, roll the windows up.
Yeah, yeah.
I never made that connection.
And I think, I honestly think it's providential.
It's kind of like God's going to be the best.
Maybe he wasn't the good guy that you think he was.
Anyways, that myth is coming down.
But all the way to that point, let me pull up.
Someone asked about statistics.
This right here, guys, there's.
There's a lot of images going around.
They're grainy as can be.
It's been copied and pasted, copied and pasted 50 times.
You can't even find the source of it anymore on the internet.
So I just went to the FBI Data Explorer.
These numbers are some of the lowest that I've seen.
So you have numbers that are much, much higher.
But if you look at this graph, this is across five years, and you're looking at homicide rates.
So there's breakdown of aggregated assault, there's breakdown of sexual crimes, all of these different things.
It's probably a little bit too small to be able to read, but the greatest number of homicides committed, category race, is black or African American.
And that would be 34,000 within the last.
Five years.
Now, generally speaking, homicide.
Homicide.
Okay.
35,000.
Whites are 22,000.
Then you have down there, not specified, unknown, a couple grand continuous.
That's not per capita.
That's just total.
So that's not per capita.
So what per capita does is it says, hey, someone may do, you know, may have 75% of a given incident.
But if they're 90%, that's actually better because that means less than one in one are committing X, Y, and Z.
So what you have to understand this of is in terms of per capita, per X, Y, and Z. Black men, what kind of homicide rates are we looking at?
So, I ran this calculation based on 48.9 million African Americans, blacks here in the United States, and about 249 European whites.
Million.
249 million.
What?
249 million.
So, just to pause real quick, so you're saying that it's approximately five times as many white people as blacks make up 14% of the American population.
But the comparison you're doing is like a five to one.
Yes.
Yep.
So, blacks are.
To get all the way to the front.
And then we are what, like 60?
About 60%.
Yeah.
Okay.
But what it is, is it's one in every 1,300 black men, according to these FBI crime statistics over the last five years, compared to one in every 11,000 white men.
Right.
One in every 1,300 have done it, have been committed.
And these are some of the lowest estimates I've seen.
There are some estimates that are as high as one in 22 black men will commit murder in their lifetime.
Again, I wanted to do my best to pull the best source I have.
There are notorious cases.
So, like the not specified and unknown right there.
That's another 17,000.
I tend not to think that's Japanese individuals.
There could be certain people that we're talking about there.
But even with these statistics, one in 1,300 black men will commit a homicide in the United States.
Of those 48 million, based on this, doing some rough math, generally speaking, compared to about a 10 times difference for white men, one in 11,000.
Actually, sorry, that's black people and white people.
Generally, of course, so it's men that would commit homicide.
So one in 1,300.
At the lowest estimate.
For black men or just black, period?
Black.
Black people in general.
Black people in general.
The 49 million that live in the United States.
And then one in 11,000.
One in 11,000.
Missionary Callings And Risks00:08:14
Right.
And you need to know this when you buy a home, when you live in a neighborhood.
Long term, we hope, as we've been talking about, that the civil government, that the state will come in and say, our citizens, like this is who we're charged to care for.
Like, what is the president elected for?
It's not photo ops, it's to protect the people of his nation.
Now, here's the deal that's long term.
Short term, What do I do?
Well, if you're a man, carry a gun.
Well, my state doesn't allow it.
Well, carry a gun, carry some type of protection.
This is not legal advice.
Not legal advice, but there's different ways to protect yourself.
Or move.
But that's your point.
Or move.
So we don't want to encourage people to break the law.
Like Wes is just joking there.
He's just, you're joking, right?
I'm joking.
Wes is just joking.
I feel like the Anakin meme.
It's like, you're joking, right?
Wes just looks at me like, no, don't carry one gun.
Carry two.
He's like, yes, not mine.
That would be my fault.
That was a joke.
But in all seriousness, you might need to move.
Like if you're living in a state that has on the books, Laws that say you cannot protect your family.
Right.
Like that's unconstitutional.
Well, it's not just unconstitutional.
It's morally heinous.
Yeah.
It's unbiblical.
It's morally heinous.
It's unconstitutional.
Well, I, you know, I'm sitting there on the show, you know, like I wrote a book about, you know, there are actually reasons to leave.
And that's one of them.
One reason is one state allows me to fulfill my God given duty and obligation as a father to protect my family, and another state doesn't.
That right there, for pretty much.
Any of our ancestors before 100 years and prior, that would have been enough reason, right?
That literally no one, none of our ancestors would have lived in Vermont with those laws.
They all would have, I mean, they would have lobbied, they would have fought, but if it became decisive that they couldn't win, they literally, they all would have left.
They would be horrified that any God fearing Christian lives in Vermont with its gun laws.
Seriously.
Like John Adams would be like, you are in sin.
My brother in Christ, you should be brought up underneath church discipline charges.
Why?
What's the big deal?
You're subjecting your family to a land where you are legally bound against defending them, your God given obligation.
I mean, this is how people thought.
And all of your ancestors weren't wrong.
They weren't.
So that alone is a reason.
Kate Murray just said, Well, where do I move?
So I'm saying move.
Here's the deal I would say in all 50 United States, there are safe places.
It's called rural.
Get out of cities.
Like that's what happened.
I didn't touch on that too much, but it was called white flight or suburban sprawl.
And what happened with the cities being high on crime was a lot of white families moved to the suburbs.
That's what happened.
That's how they developed.
They spread out, they built homes that had postage stamps, yards, and they did that to get away from the crime in the cities.
And crime in the cities, not necessarily being perpetrated.
Perpetrated.
Good.
Great.
Universal brain freeze.
Perpetrated.
There's not necessarily a crime being perpetrated by Japanese.
So, in any state, you could move states totally.
But honestly, there are wonderful places in California.
There are rural towns that have the ethos of the American spirit there.
Your sheriff is not going to look twice if you happen to carry in downtown.
So, wherever you are, maybe it's just 30 minutes east.
And then you're just in a place where you can go to the playgrounds, you can go to the grocery store.
But what else matters?
At a foundational level, there's building God's kingdom.
And one of the primary jobs He's given to you, husbands and fathers, Is to care for your family.
Like you may evangelize many men and women in your life.
Your primary ones are the children that God has given to you to evangelize and to protect them.
That is the primary mission.
Everything else is built on top of it.
So you don't get to say, like, well, I'm living in downtown Baltimore on missions.
Well, how does that work if the primary disciple that you're trying to raise gets hit by a stray bullet and doesn't make it past their 10th birthday?
It doesn't sound like the right method of discipleship.
Go 30 minutes outside, raise them, and evangelize the many people there that need the gospel.
And God does.
God does call certain individuals to go to hard places.
Right.
That is a, like, missionary is a real biblical category.
It is.
But my concern, and I talked about this in my book, but like my concern is that although missionary is a real category, in order to fit in that category, there are real conditions.
And I don't think that the average Christian meets those conditions.
That's for me, that's the problem is not that we should say missionary isn't a thing, you know, or like nobody should be a missionary or everybody should just, you know, You know, we should never go to hard places and preach the gospel.
We should never go to the Sudan.
We should never go here.
We should never go there.
That's not my argument.
But what I would say is that there are certain places in the United States that are quickly becoming likened to, like in the same way that no church would say, you know what?
Every single Christian should just go to the Sudan, be a missionary, be outspokenly Christian.
No church would have said that.
We would all recognize that's a pretty unique, special call.
It is not for the faint of heart.
Most Christians are not up for the task.
And so it's going to be only a few who are especially qualified to be sent there.
And the rest of us will do the role of supporting them.
We all get that instinctively when it comes to difficult places overseas.
All I try to do in this book, and I think part of what we're trying to do in our conversation today, is say that sadly, until morale improves in these United States, there are certain places here.
Not just foreign or abroad, but domestically here in our nation, that we need to begin thinking about that place the way we would think about a very difficult, hostile country on the other side of the planet.
Christians need to think about it.
That's why Andrew Isker left his home state, where six generations of his people.
Joel, did you know the six generations thing before the Isker interview?
That was so heartbreaking to hear.
I know.
It's terrible.
It's absolutely terrible that he had to move.
But here's the thing.
He had to move.
I knew.
Yep.
And he, like, that everyone gave him a hard time.
He's abandoning his posts.
You know, he's doing this.
Like, the same usual suspects who got upset with me, you know, came out and got upset with him.
But it's in his case, they have six kids, and their oldest has autism.
And what people are doing in some of these deep blue states, especially with children with autism, and The way that they're exploiting and taking advantage of Colorado's passing bills right now, Washington has already passed them and convincing them to change their gender.
And then, if their parents disagree, taking them away from their family.
Andrew Isker, literally, like, not only would I argue it's permissible, I would have argued that he, at a certain point, I think we might be there, he might have been in sin to stay.
He might have been in sin to stay, given his family situation, the number of children that he has, and one child in particular.
With some of their special needs.
That's just, that's the world that we're living in.
If you're a black man and you feel called to Atlanta, like, amen, you love Jesus, you have passion for the black community, that is way more applicable than, you know, white man with two white daughters being like, oh, I'm going to go to inner city Patterson, New Jersey.
Well, let's hold the brakes.
Repentance And Forgiveness Limits00:14:59
Hang on.
Has God equipped you for this calling?
Some white guys will be called to that.
We're not saying no white guy is called, but you're right.
It is just a countdown.
But on the whole, all else being equal, maybe that's not what God has called you to be.
They used to be.
I heard this because I grew up in missionary families and I heard a lot and I had to change my perspective on this.
The common evangelical phrase was everyone's called to be a missionary.
Some are just called to be a missionary in other countries.
No, everyone's called to be.
Don't love that.
Everyone's called to share the gospel, right?
To be an evangelist.
But no, missionary is a distinct thing.
Yep.
Let's hit our last commercial break.
We're going to take some questions, specifically, a great question on forgiveness as it relates to the Austin Metcalf Carmelo Anthony story.
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18 15.
Okay, so this is Matthew chapter 18, verse 15.
We're getting to a question in the super chat.
I'll read it for you, Joel.
Yeah, we're going to deal with questions.
Yeah.
Cameron Stevenson, great brother, said, Question.
I hear some folks referencing Jesus saying, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
That was at the cross.
Oh, that was at the cross.
As he was hanging on the cross.
Does this mean we must immediately forgive the unrepentant?
And this kind of comes to bear, Joel's answer being no.
This comes to bear in a situation like this.
Episode over.
Say someone, someone terrible happens to your child.
They're unrepentant.
If anything, they're proud that they did it.
Do you as a Christian have to immediately offer them forgiveness when they're unre unrepentant?
Okay, you guys said it's chapter 17, verse 18.
No, that's church discipline.
Uh, yeah, no, the one that says 77 times.
Oh, how many times must I forgive my brother, even if he sins against me seven times?
But I know 1821.
1821, yeah, thank you.
Yeah, okay, okay.
Um, yes, uh, so Matthew 18, verse 21 Then came Peter to him and said, Lord, how oft?
This is the King Jimmy.
How oft shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?
Till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee until seven times, but until seventy times seven.
Therefore, this is verse 23 now.
Therefore, is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king which would take into account.
This is not.
I think you want Luke 17, 3 through 4, is the one you want.
I have it here.
I'll read it.
Okay, you read it.
Yep, thank you.
This says.
Watch yourselves as your brother sins, rebuke him.
And if he repents, forgive him.
Even if he sins against you seven times in a day and seven times returns to say, I repent, you must forgive him.
Yes, that's what Luke 17, 2 through 4.
Basically.
2 through 4.
So that's the same.
This is Jesus.
This is the same narrative that Luke's recording as Matthew.
But per usual, Luke is usually a little bit more thorough.
Right.
More in depth.
And more in depth.
He was a physician.
Makes sense.
He cared a little bit more about details.
And so, this is so it's not like, well, in one place in Matthew he says this, but in Luke he says that.
No, it's the same instance, but Luke is just giving us a few more pieces of the puzzle so that we can see more of what's going on.
But specifically, what I wanted to draw out is Luke 17, verse 4.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him.
But look at the verse before that.
It says to rebuke him.
Verse 3, Luke 17, 3.
Yep.
Take heed to yourselves if thy brother trespass against thee.
Rebuke him, and if he repent, forgive him.
Yeah, so the lesson is one that we should correct our brothers, and I don't think it's just for brother in Christ, but anybody in our life who is sinning against us, there should be a willingness to rebuke them, to correct them.
But if they repent, there's now a moral obligation under God to forgive them.
So I tweeted out, I don't know, yesterday or maybe the day before.
At some point, I forgot.
I got in trouble for like three tweets this week.
One of them went super duper viral.
But I tweeted out about this father, you know, saying, you know, I forgive.
And some people were giving him a hard time.
And I don't really want to give any father a hard time when his son just got stabbed, you know, in the heart.
But he said, you know, we already forgive this young black boy.
And, you know, and then that became a thing on social media.
You know, people were saying, this is good, this is Christ like.
And then others saying, no, you know, he shouldn't forgive.
And then some, even Christians, saying, you know, he shouldn't forgive.
And so I, you know, entered into the fray and just said, That when we're sinned against, you may, when someone sins against you, you may forgive them.
If they sin against you and repent, you must forgive them.
So, anytime you're sinned against, I believe that biblically you may forgive them.
But if they repent, they come to you and apologize, you must forgive them.
But if somebody sins against you and there's no apology, there's no repentance, biblically speaking, there is no commandment.
That says that you are obligated, that you must forgive them.
Now, what I would say, and Michael, we were talking about this as we were prepping for this episode you must not be bitter.
You must guard against bitterness.
You must guard against.
Regardless if they're repentant or not.
Regardless of the.
Exactly.
So, no matter what.
So, let's say they don't repent at all.
If they don't come to you, they don't apologize, they don't repent, you don't have to forgive.
But you do have to avoid bitterness.
And so, there's a third category here there's bitter, and then there's forgiveness.
And then in between, there's.
Not offering forgiveness, but also not harboring bitterness.
So if someone repents, that's what Jesus says.
If your brother sins against you, not just seven times in a day, and notice it's not just over the course of your life, if he sins against you, not just seven times in a day, but seven times 70 times in one day, but every single time he comes back and repents, and it's like, well, what kind of repentance is that?
Like, is he truly repented?
If he's in one day, keeps doing it again and again and again.
I'll give you one.
A wife trying to learn submission might be a yes, it might have to apologize seven times, 70 times in a day.
That's right, especially in our generation, when she's swimming in feminism and it's all she's ever known.
And a lot of those decisions were made for her before she was ever born.
And she's trying to honor the Lord and turn the tide and go against the grain.
And God bless that.
And she might have to apologize seven times, 70 times in one day.
But if she goes and she repents, then yes, you are obligated to forgive.
If there's not repentance, if the person doesn't apologize, then you may forgive, but you are not obligated.
If someone says, This person murdered my son, and he's laughing.
And I'm not saying that that's what's happening in this case.
I don't know.
That actually happened in that case where that black woman stabbed the young boy.
I remember that.
I remember that.
She came into court and smiled and laughed about it.
That really was?
Three year old white boy.
No motive, no anything.
Just because he's white.
Yeah.
So she killed, real quick, in that case, and she's laughing.
Those parents do not need to forgive that woman.
There's no biblical commandment that obligates them to where they must.
Must means that if you do anything else, you are in sin.
If those parents say, we don't forgive her.
She's laughing at the death of our child.
She stabbed our three year old boy just because he's white.
And she's laughing.
She's not apologetic.
She's not sorry.
There is no repentance.
And therefore, we don't forgive.
But we are going to pray and be on our knees and ask the Lord, please help us not to be bitter and heal us because there's a hole in our hearts.
Please heal us, restore us, revive us, and help us not to become jaded, not to become bitter, to be wise.
Not to be stupid and naive either, that we could read statistics as Christians.
So we're not praying that the Lord would make us stupid, right?
The opposite of bitterness is those aren't your two options.
You can be bitter or you can be dumb.
No.
You can avoid bitterness and also avoid naivety.
So help us, Lord, to be wise, shrewd as serpents, to know what world we live in, to know what's going on.
And to look it right in the face and not lie about it.
We don't need to be deceitful and we don't need to be naive.
But we also don't need to be bitter.
We don't need to be jaded.
We don't need to be unjustifiably angry, sinfully angry.
In your anger, do not sin.
So, Lord, help us with that.
And also, we do not forgive this woman who has not asked for our forgiveness because she's laughing at the fact that she stabbed our three year old white son and killed him.
That is a perfectly biblical position.
The Bible does not obligate.
So, to the question that we had in the chat was, well, what about Jesus?
And so, my answer, of course, is, that's Jesus.
That's a descriptive, not prescriptive, giving a moral command that all of us are obligated to follow.
Instead, that's a descriptive text of what Jesus, the Son of God, did.
And there's a difference in what Jesus, a descriptive text about Jesus, versus a prescriptive text about you.
Say that again.
We have to read the Bible with good biblical hermeneutics.
There's a difference between a descriptive text about Jesus and a prescriptive text about you.
Not everything that Jesus did are you commanded to do.
Now, do we want, in a general sense, to model our lives after the example that Jesus set for us?
Of course.
And many of the things that Jesus did were obeying God's universal moral commands, his father's commands, that do apply to us.
If I'm reading about Jesus fasting for 40 days and 40 nights, and I think, you know, and I start to say, well, if every Christian doesn't have at least one season in their life where they go without food and water for 40 days and 40 nights, then they're not being like Jesus, and therefore it is a moral sin.
That's dumb.
Yeah.
That's not biblical.
That's not how we use the Bible.
Yes, it's in the Bible, but that's not how we read the Bible.
And that's not how we apply the Bible.
So there are plenty of descriptive texts about Jesus that even describe aspects of his righteousness, of his virtue, of his divinity that he's got.
And yet it's not a moral, universal moral obligation for all of us to follow.
So Jesus forgiving those who literally just nailed him to the cross is not the same as.
As a universal moral commandment, that all of us have to forgive anyone and everyone the moment they sin against us, whether they're repentant or not.
Now, when we're trying to build a doctrine about what to do in that scenario, should we look to a descriptive text of what Jesus does or should we look to a prescriptive text of what Jesus literally commands?
We should look to the latter.
Jesus told us when we're obligated to forgive.
We don't have to guess about this.
So we don't have to follow the descriptive text about Jesus.
We can follow the prescriptive text about us given by Jesus.
And what Jesus specifically says is that you are morally bound and obligated to forgive when there is repentance.
And if there's not repentance, you can't be better.
You can't, in your anger, sin.
You still have to follow all those commands, but you're not obligated to forgive.
You can actually say, I do not forgive this person.
But it's not because you want to hold on to hatred and anger, right?
Avoid bitterness?
You're also not obligated to forgive.
Because it's partly.
In what the definition of forgiveness is.
Forgiveness is a restoration of relationship.
That's right.
Right?
And it's hard.
You can't be resolved with someone who isn't repentant.
Yeah.
There's another aspect to this because the question was about Jesus on the cross.
Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
When you look carefully at that passage, the immediate people that are being talked about in the verse before that and in that verse, and then it switches focus in the next verse.
The next verse says, the people stood watching and the rulers sneered at him.
But in 33 and 34, it's talking about the soldiers who went out and crucified Christ.
I heard Arn McIntyre say as he was talking about this, I thought it was brilliant.
He said these were soldiers who showed up to do their job.
They had crucified lots of criminals because that's what their job was to do by the Roman government.
And Jesus is saying, because that's the immediate context right there, Father, them.
They actually have no clue what they're doing.
Yes.
He's not paying forgiveness for the Jews that put him to death.
That's right.
That's right.
Please do not, please forgive them.
They literally don't know what they're doing.
But the Jewish people, even maybe Pilate, possibly, they knew what they were doing.
That's right.
And so the reason why the forgiveness is given is because they don't know.
They don't know.
Divine Will And Human Context00:13:00
And I'm going to go one step further.
This is my interpretation of it, but I've looked into some different reformers.
So if you look at the crucifixion of Jesus, where this scene takes place, and it's following right on the heels of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane as he's praying right before his arrest, and in his prayer, he literally says, I do not pray.
For the world.
Right, right.
This is not a universal prayer.
Right.
I'm not praying for everybody and anybody who's ever lived.
No, but rather, Father, I pray for those whom you have given.
That's right.
That's right.
Sure, the limited atonement.
The limited atonement.
Exactly.
So Jesus is praying for his disciples, immediate disciples, which would exclude Judas, because by this point, Judas has gone out, been handed over to Satan, filled with Satan, to do what the son of perdition was destined to do.
Jesus already, you know, he already put his hand.
You know, into the bowl with the bread, you know, with Jesus, and Satan filled him and he ran out.
And so Jesus is not praying for Judas.
So he prays for his disciples, not for the world, but those you've given me, his immediate disciples first, discluding Judas.
And then he says, and all those who you will give to me for future disciples.
And that includes 2,000 years later, you know, you and I, but it also includes people who would have believed the gospel of Jesus soon after his crucifixion.
And I believe my position is because was it not one of those Roman soldiers?
Who, after Jesus died, after he prays on the cross, forgive them for they know not what they do, who comes and stabs him in the side, doesn't break his legs so that the scripture would be fulfilled, not one bone of his body would be broken, stabs him in the side with a spear, two streams of water and blood come out, and he says, Surely this was the Son of God.
I think that's probably one of the Roman soldiers that Jesus is saying, Forgive them for they know not what.
I think he's speaking to the Romans.
So he's not just saying, Forgive everybody and anybody everywhere.
Because here's the deal.
Here's the point.
This is why I bring up his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Jesus does not pray against the will of God the Father.
That's right.
That would be heretical.
That's crazy.
I mean, come on, let's get some good Trinitarian doctrine here.
So God is one in essence, three in person.
The will of God is belonging to essence, not person.
There are not three wills within the Trinity, but rather one.
However, within the second member of the Trinity, he has two natures, two essences.
The divine essence, the divine nature, and not as a substitution, but in addition, he has added to his divinity in the incarnation, the second nature, which is his humanity.
And because there are two essences, not two people, it's not schizophrenia, Jesus is one person, but with two natures.
And because there are two natures, and will is belonging to nature, Jesus, the second member of the Godhead, had two wills.
He had the divine will, which he shared in the one.
Will of the Godhead with the Father and the Spirit, but then also the human will.
That's why he prays, not my will, but yours be done, meaning not the second person of the Trinity, but the first person.
No, not my, that is my human will, but thy, that is the divine will, which the divinity of Christ shared with the Father and the Spirit.
That will, let that will be done.
So Jesus does not pray or ask or do or say or think anything that is in contradiction and against.
The Godhead against the Father.
I and the Father are one.
That's one of the things he literally prays for in the same text, John 17.
I pray that all those that you've given to me, that we would be one, even as you and I, Father, are one.
That they would share in that same perfect unity, a perfect united will, that we want the same things, desire the same things, love the same things, hate the same things.
So Jesus is never doing anything against the Father.
He's never saying anything against the Father, and He's also never praying.
Anything against the Father.
And even the one time where you even, it's only one moment that you even see a distinction in wills, even there, it's not two members of the Godhead willing against one another, but the two natures within the Son willing against one another, the human nature.
And even then, they're not willing against one another.
It's just showing that there are two distinct wills, but still aligned because in his human will, he's saying, but not my human will.
The human will is fully submitted.
To the divine will, even though it will cost me dearly, even death on a tree.
So, all that being said, when Jesus says, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do, Jesus is not going to ask the Father to forgive sin of those who are not elect.
Jesus is referencing, I have to believe this to be consistent biblically.
Jesus, when he says, forgive them, he's asking the Father to forgive the same group of people that he's bleeding out and dying for.
He's asking the Father, he cannot be asking the Father to forgive sin that he himself is not.
Dying for, that he's not paying for.
He's asking the Father to forgive the same sin that he is simultaneously in that moment paying for by his blood, by his life.
And so then who is it that he's praying for?
Every single person in all the world?
No.
I think he's praying particularly for the people who are right there doing it, physically doing it to him, driving the nails, right?
Hoisting up the cross, mocking him, spitting on him.
He's praying, I think, for the Romans.
And here's the thing.
We know at least one of those Romans, and I think because Jesus prayed it, I'm going to believe, I'm going to intuit and conclude here that many of those Roman soldiers actually came to saving faith.
Consider their religious perspective.
They were going to talk that night.
Yes.
That guy that realized that that was Christ, all of them are thinking, this is a God man of some sort.
That's in their mythology.
And then they're all going to say, we aren't, there's no way we can come back from this, except that Christ said out loud, Father, forgive them, they don't know what they're doing.
That's so good, Mike.
That'll preach.
So it's like, imagine that you're the person who literally drove the nails through his hands, and so he has this experience one of those Roman soldiers with the blood and the darkness for exactly like three hours.
There's all these supernatural things, but then also there's another big one, uh, the resurrection.
You know, so just a few days later, he literally comes back to life, and you might be one of the soldiers who drove the nails through his hands, and then also was standing guard assigned at the tomb.
And then all of a sudden, like the stone is rolled away, you know, and all these things.
Take place and he's resurrected.
And the Jews were the ones who came up with this talk.
The Bible says this the rumor that, oh, the body was stolen, whatever.
But if you're one of those Roman guards, you know that's not true.
The Jews are lying.
That's not true.
I was standing guard.
He is actually risen.
But imagine at a personal level, you're like, so he really was the son of God.
He really did die for the sins of the world.
And I'm the one who nailed him there.
Well, he died for the sins of a bunch of people, but not mine.
There's no way he could forgive me.
Oh, wait, but I heard him.
Yep.
And he specifically referenced me.
Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
That'll preach.
I think that's who Jesus.
So, all the way back to the question so then we should forgive everyone and anyone all the time.
Nope, because that's not what Jesus commands.
Go to prescriptive texts from Jesus rather than descriptive texts about Jesus.
And even with a descriptive text about Jesus, that's still not in the description.
The description does not say that Jesus forgave everyone universally in the whole world.
No.
Hell's empty.
Yeah.
Jesus has forgiven his people, those whom he knows the Father had given to him or would give to him.
Jesus has forgiven the elect.
Jesus has not forgiven the people who are paying for their sin in eternity in hell.
Their sins were not forgiven by Jesus.
And they are not the people that Jesus was referencing on the cross.
So, what's that?
Oh, a subtle question.
Okay.
Let's keep on.
Super chats.
Yeah.
Super chats.
I'll go through them quick.
Evan Davies, $5.
Thanks so much.
In the UK, we are told not to look back in anger.
That's Quoting an Oasis song, when Islamic attacks occur, people are indeed coached on what to say.
I believe it.
And if you do speak up, jail.
Yep.
Straight to jail.
Wait, what was that?
Go up?
That was the question.
Not to look back and answer.
Here's a comment.
He was saying in the UK, if something happens like the grooming gangs, they're coached not to look at that and be angry.
Yep.
Yep.
I see.
Josiah Cooper, $10.
Thanks, Josiah.
Thanks, brothers, for the solid work y'all do for the kingdom.
Really appreciate that encouragement.
Cameron Stevenson, I know we already did it, but $20.
Thanks for discussing these topics, fellows.
Please offer your thoughts on the question about forgiveness.
Went ahead and tackled that.
By the way, the conference was fantastic.
Really appreciate it.
Thanks, Cameron.
We got Jeff.
All right, Jeff Halfley.
Jeff Halfley.
Here we go.
A couple comments.
Some of them are just.
He's probably my best friend.
Have you guys.
Have you heard of him before?
What?
Have you heard of him before?
I've heard of him a couple times.
Whispering on the winds.
It's like when you listen to Orrin McIntyre.
It's like, creeper weirdos.
Like literally every episode.
But Jeff Hafley is a much better name than creeper weirdos.
Yes.
So Jeff looks like a handsome dude.
He does.
$10 super chat.
Thanks, Jeff.
Mental illnesses often correlate with body illness.
Pre modern medicine, sickly people often died.
Remove the more mentally ill prone people from the gene pool.
Yeah.
Honestly, in history, most men.
70, 80% of them, they didn't get to have children.
They died in war.
None of their children survived.
They just straight up didn't have a lineage.
I mean, I'm not arguing with you.
That's just a shocking thing.
I think some of the breakdowns with war and stuff, and you look at the outcomes of their children.
John Owen didn't have a child that survived into adulthood.
It's normal in the Old Testament that they were going to have kids.
Yeah, that's some estimates I've heard that there are just a number of men that just their line doesn't continue.
And to the case, mental illness, physical illness, Not finding a spouse, but I've been reliably reassured that if your line doesn't continue, that who cares?
Because at the end of the day, what we want to do is be forgotten, and all that matters is our name is written in the Bible.
I want to be the dead end of 5,000 years of ancestors.
That's my goal.
That's my goal.
Like, if you're really gospel centered and you got that Jesus juke down, then what you say is, I just want to be forgotten, remembered by no one, zero posterity, my lineage ended.
All my ancestors and all the things that they've accumulated and passed down, I snuff it out in one generation.
But my name is in the land of the book of life.
I had Netflix.
I had Netflix.
And my name is in the land of the book of life.
And I said the sinner's prayer.
And I have been told by reformed pastors that that's godly and that it's actually vanity to want to be remembered here on earth.
Whereas the irony, obviously, I'm being sarcastic.
I'm not sarcastic about the reformed pastors thing.
Well, Casting Crowns, that song, like, I don't care if they remember me.
I don't want to leave a legacy.
Only Jesus.
And I get what they're saying there in that building a name for yourself in pride.
Sure, that's a possibility.
Yeah, you can do it with pride.
Don't overcorrect, please.
You can do it with pride.
But here's the deal one of the strictest judgments that God would levy against people who had sinned against Him greatly is that they would be forgotten, not just in the life to come, but forgotten.
Their name would be forgotten from the earth.
That He would end their legacy on the earth, that He would end their lineage, that He would not give them posterity.
That their name would be blotted out from all the earth.
It is actually a great honor, a good name.
You think of the Proverbs that's talking about a good name, not just your name eternally written in the Lamb's Book of Life, but here on earth, a good name is of incredible worth, incredible value.
That's just not.
People who are saying these, they haven't read the Bible.
Yes, you do want to be remembered on earth, and you want to be remembered well for being courageous, for being righteous, for standing up for God's truth, and you want to have posterity, and you want them to have posterity.
For generation to generation to generation, and that you would be remembered as someone who feared the Lord and who did mighty things in his name.
Amen.
None of that necessitates, you can desire those things arrogantly, but it does not necessitate arrogance.
Legacy Of Courage And Truth00:07:04
Yep.
Jeff Halfley, $2.
The Old Testament law had an amazing passive eugenic effect.
It did.
It did.
Super Chat, $5.
This is interesting.
If Lincoln had given 40 acres and a mule to each freed slave family in Liberia, What do you see as the outcome in that time and in our present time?
And so, Liberia was a colony set up in Africa for slaves that had been freed and wanted to return to Africa.
They're largely Protestant, even still to this day.
Gentlemen, how do they actually model their constitution off of our constitution?
So, it's kind of a satellite in many ways.
How do we think Liberia is doing today?
I don't think it's doing well.
It's not very well.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
It's a terrible place for crime and life expectancy and all of that.
And so, I'm skeptical outside of a type of colonial oversight like they had in Rhodesia that 40 acres and a mule would have worked well, Lincoln's plan, all of that.
At least for a time.
That's not necessarily to say.
For all time, there always would have needed to be.
But there was no way, because we know, because a bunch of Protestant, Christian, freed slaves went to start a new colony and it went terribly.
I've heard, Wes or Joel, can you confirm that one of the plans that was in place was that Texas would be opened as a place to resettle freed slaves?
Is this, am I totally off on this?
Lincoln definitely floated sending them back to Africa.
I've never been aware of it here in the United States.
I thought there was like a territory that they had talked about, like setting aside.
And anyway, Lincoln was pretty brutal.
Yeah, he was not the first anti racist.
Yeah.
Well, there were guys, I mean, he was a, you know, clearly, you know, absolutely, you know, a white supremacist.
Most people.
Well, he lived in the 1800s, so you repeat yourself.
Yeah, that's true.
But, you know, the things he said were things that most people today would be highly.
I'll let Antonio fight you over this.
Antonio's a Lincoln appreciated.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Way.
I thought you said he was smart.
I thought so.
And then he defended.
Oh, that's terrible.
Well, his argument is that Lincoln's doing the best he can in that context.
In this circumstance.
When you have a new federal state, you have this federal system, and he really sees it as the best way to keep this union together.
And so.
He feels the need with Fort Sumter and all of that.
That's the argument.
And there are historians that make that argument.
To be fair to Antonio, he's done the reading.
He has.
He has.
On this topic, he's done a lot of it.
What I was going to say, though, is there were a lot of people who suggested sending all the freed slaves out west.
But Lincoln, from my reading, he was one of the biggest guys against that because he was like, well, us northerners, we want to settle the west and we don't want to live next to them.
So there's your hero.
The reason I'm saying that is because there's so many libs.
You know, that like Lincoln is our guy, you know, and he, like, in a way, he kind of is.
In a way, he's all federal oversight, right?
Centralized government taking away states' rights, uh, you know, destroying the constitution.
So, he is the Libs guys, right?
In the sense that, like, they hate America, he also ruined America, so he is their guy.
But, uh, but apart, they think he's their guy, like, because he's anti racist.
Not Abraham, no, not old Abe.
We're back to the Anakin meme, anyway, yeah, exactly.
MB East, can you address the Tim Poole post?
Tim Poole.
Do you know what they're talking about?
I think it's the one where.
Poole described it as self defense on Kamala Anthony's car.
Oh, interesting.
What?
So, okay.
Yeah, I can describe.
Tim Poole, a libertarian?
Yeah, I can describe it.
I'm going to do it.
I'm going to do it publicly.
Happy to describe the Tim Pool situation.
Tim Pool has gotten the call many, many, many times, but he's gotten like some heavy calls as recently.
He and some other influencers went to the White House and got a good stern talking to.
From President Trump, of course, right?
From the Zionists who are in the White House.
From the president, yes.
Not from the Zionists.
From the president, but not Trump.
From the real president.
Right.
Yeah, so he sat down with Bibby.
Yeah, and uh, closed room, no recording, no other influencers, and got a good stern talking to.
And I mean, you can watch the clip, it's gone viral a ton of times.
Where like somebody on the show is like, Well, you know, but this kind of is like has to do with Israel, and he's like, Wait, what'd you say?
Don't say that, bro.
You know, like, um, so in terms of uh, Tim Pool posts, like, I understand this doesn't have to do necessarily with anti Semitism, but that it's the same thing, anti Semitism is just one one subgroup of being racist, um, so.
Tim Poole is, it's just what, like, I've listened to Tim Poole.
He has some decent things every now and then.
I'm not trying to be, you know, a jerk about it, but just everyone needs to recognize.
He's a milquetoast Vincent Spencer.
Yes, he is a liberal.
The dude is not a conservative, not even close, and he absolutely is in the pocket of the Republicans.
Although, I think he's on your side with Lincoln.
With Lincoln being a bad guy?
Yep.
Incredible.
That's shocking.
Do you know how long ago that he posted that?
It was this week.
I want to say it was either probably Wednesday or Wednesday.
Matt Walsh posted Anthony did not fear for his life.
He felt disrespected.
That's not the same thing.
You can't kill someone simply because you don't like how they talk to you.
It's mind boggling that I have to explain this.
Tim Poole retweeted and said, I agree with this.
That was five hours ago.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, listen, man, here's the thing with altercations.
How many brothers have not just gotten testy with one another and done some shoving, brawled, punched each other in the face?
Oh, yeah.
Like, honestly, like you read Gone with the Wind, and obviously that's fiction, but like, The platoons would drill on Saturday morning and then go to the bar and brawl until the officers pulled them off of one another.
All of that is just a standard part of being male and sports and everything.
I don't play risk anymore because my brother and I got in so many fistfights over it.
Yeah, literal fistfights.
Did it ever occur to you, though, to take a kitchen knife out and stab him in the sternum?
You could consider that as an option.
Now, like men brawl.
So the problem is not an altercation, it's the incredible escalation and the lack of control to say, I just, this is going to kill someone.
Like a knife is not tripping and someone falls off a pier and hits their head.
There is a legitimate category of we were wrestling, we were arguing, we were fighting.
Someone slips, they hit their head.
That's not what we're talking about here.
We're talking about impulse.
We're talking about I don't care what impact this has, and I'm just going to do it.
I am going to say, I know you guys, I'm always the wet blanket, but the Derek Chauvin, I maintained a let's wait and see what the full investigation comes out and says.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, sure.
No, there are still facts.
But even if Austin said something terrible to him, Agree.
Still wouldn't just agree.
I think he probably did say something terrible to him, and that would have been wrong.
Impulse Versus Consequence00:01:14
Yep.
And the response, yes, the response maybe punch him in the face.
Yeah, maybe a punch, maybe.
Yep.
Um, but yeah, to answer MB East, uh, can you address the Tim Pool post?
It sounds like he walked it back, but I will say that, um, I just want our listeners to be aware because I know that some of our listeners will listen to Tim Pool and, um, uh, Yeah, Tim Temple is not.
I just don't think he's not.
I don't think he's reliable.
He doesn't claim to be conservative either.
He brings people in the way Rogan does.
Yeah, he doesn't claim to be conservative.
He says, I'm a moderate liberal.
So, to speak well of him, he's honest about that.
But what I'm saying is that even as a moderate liberal, I still wouldn't trust him because I think he's beholden to Israel.
He took that tenant media money with Russia.
They invested a couple hundred million dollars.
He was a big part of that tenant media conglomerate that got together.