Right Response Ministries hosts argue that suppressing God's natural order through birth control and industrial labor triggers an inevitable backlash, likening society to a submerged beach ball poised to explode. Citing C.S. Lewis, Aldous Huxley, and John Calvin, they predict a violent return to Christian, Islamic, or pagan nationalism if the church fails to urgently advocate for biblical patriarchy now. The speakers contend that while the world overreacts to these truths, the church is objectively underreacting compared to historical theologians like William Gooch and Matthew Henry. Ultimately, they urge a militant approach where grace perfects nature, elevating family and nation into Christian forms before secular culture swings too far in the opposite direction. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Church Enters Wokeness00:15:00
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C.S. Lewis once warned us that famished nature will be avenged.
And a hard heart is no infallible protection against a soft head.
In other words, nature always finds a way.
This means, for example, that feminism can never last, and when it ends, it will end with a vengeance.
The same goes for nationalism, tradition, and all the other ways that modernity seeks to make men without chests.
The beach ball can't stay underwater forever, and when it returns, look out.
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Tune in now for this very timely discussion.
We are back.
Our very own Wesley Todd has been tasked with outlining and preparing all the stats and the quotes and everything for this episode.
So he's going to go ahead and kick it off.
All right.
Well, first thing I would say, C.S. Lewis says this, I think it's on the incarnation, but in the introduction, he says, you've got to be reading old books.
You need to be old book maxing.
And I feel like so far, a theme, I mean, we're only a couple of weeks into the new year, but a big one has been nature.
And as I've read C.S. Lewis, certainly, I mean, you got to always be reading some type of C.S. Lewis book on repeat Great Divorce for the Fifth Time, Abolition of Man.
But C.S. Lewis, Dabney, and some other guys, they had a different perspective on nature because really it's the Industrial Revolution that begins to make possible some of the kind of modern horrors that we would see today.
So, I think of the birth control pill, for example.
The birth control pill upends nature, it takes an act that mathematically always has the potential for.
New life, and it takes it and through mechanical, artificial, hormonal suppressant means denies an act, the nature, the intention of an act to come to its completion.
And so, the industrial evolution, technological innovation, all sorts of medicine have made possible this concept of the suppression of nature.
I mean, we're castration, for example, like we do that via chemicals.
We've talked about the birth control pill, um, even just getting people inside what an unnatural thing is to take people.
And to sit them under artificial, blue, cold, fluorescent lights all day.
That's their job.
And then they go from the fluorescent lights looking at the big screen to the warm lights looking at the little screen.
And that's their life, back and forth, back and forth.
And in all of these, the core theme is taking nature and taking how man was designed to live, how God designed man to live, not just a natural man's reason, man's ideas of the best, but God designed man to live and taking it and pushing it under.
And these old authors, they recognize that if you do that, Like a beach ball, and you take it at the beach and you push it down under the water.
It doesn't just stay there eventually.
That if you held it down for 30 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half, that it wouldn't just eventually accept, well, looks like all my oxygen, I'm just gonna hang out here.
No, in time, and the farther you go, the worse it's going to be.
Nature, physics, reality, it's going to come back with a vengeance that you can't forever deny it.
I'm gonna read a quote here.
This is from C.S. Lewis.
The abolition of man, it's all about this concept.
The abolition of man.
And he says, education is one of these tools that we take.
To try to deny man his manliness, how he was made to be.
C.S. Lewis says this in Abolition of Man.
And all the time, such as the tragi comedy of our situation, we continue to clamor for those very qualities we are rendering impossible.
You can hardly open a periodical without coming across the statement that what our civilization really needs is more drive or dynamism or self sacrifice or creativity.
In sort of a ghastly simplicity, we remove the organ and demand the function.
We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise.
We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.
We castrate and bind the geldings and bid them to be fruitful.
And then Aldous Huxley, he said this in Brave New World, not a Christian author, but still observing something true.
Reality cannot be ignored except at a price.
And the longer that ignorance is persisted in, the higher and more terrible becomes the price that needs to be paid.
And so in the second segment, I'm going to get into some of the mechanics that it is that nature is going to actually have its vengeance.
And we'll talk specifics on men and women.
I think especially globalism, naturalism, nationalism, modernity to tradition, some of those specifics in the third segment.
But really, just want to get the idea across that man cannot eternally suppress what it is that God has made him to be, that he cannot destroy it.
But, Joel, you've said this many times nature finds a way.
Life finds a way.
And you just can't simply get around the way that God has made the world.
A prophet from Jurassic Park once said life finds a way.
Yeah, nature is going to come back.
And the longer it's suppressed and the more severely it's suppressed, the more vengeance it will return with.
And that's, you know, I keep saying it's not whether, but which.
It's not whether we'll have nationalism.
Nationalism is God's design.
He sets up nations, their times, their boundaries, all these things.
We find that in Acts chapter 17.
So nationalism will return.
Globalism is not natural.
It's not just that it's immoral, but it's also not natural.
So globalism will not be able to, it's not sustainable.
It's not viable, not long term.
There will be a return to nationalism.
The return will be swift, it will be severe.
And the question is not whether we'll return to nationalism, but simply.
Which kind of nationalism will return to?
My prediction is it will be one of three Christian nationalism, Islamic nationalism, or a pagan nationalism.
There could be other options.
I think those are probably the big three, but you're going to get one of those.
And so Christians are either going to take the reins and rise up and exercise godly, righteous courage and say, no, no, no, no.
The Bible esteems nationalism, and here's how to do it.
Christian nationalism, how to do it righteously.
Or Christians are going to say Christian nationalism is icky, and the Muslims will install nationalism as they slowly take over the country.
Or there'll be a complete, you know, reverting back to a kind of pre world religion, pagan nationalism.
But the world has always known nationalism, and we'll have a return.
Same thing with patriarchy.
It's either going, we're going to get, not whether, but which, we're going to get patriarchy.
Feminism is not viable.
It's not sustainable, it won't last long term.
The Industrial Revolution and these kinds of things, modern inventions and innovation helped it to look sustainable for a time because the average vocation was no longer something that was physical labor and involved and required a certain measure of physical strength.
And so you could have women in the workplace because the workplace happened to have HVAC, and it was pencil pushing and bean counting instead of something that's with your hands.
And so the Industrial Age.
Made feminism appear viable, but long term it's not.
And so there's going to be a reverting back to patriarchy.
And when it happens, it won't be whether it happens, but simply which patriarchy will we have?
We'll have biblical patriarchy, or we'll have a pagan patriarchy, or we'll have an Islamic patriarchy, something.
But it's going to return.
And part of what I'm advocating for is one, because of fidelity to scripture and desiring to be faithful and obedient to God and his design for the world.
That's preeminent.
That's the first priority.
But then, secondarily, because these things I believe are inevitable, because it's the way that God structured the world, and you can only go against the grain for so long until things snap back into their natural order that God designed, because God created the world and there is a natural order to that, I predict that there will be a return to patriarchy and nationalism, other things as well.
And so, I've been trying to advocate and encourage Christians first in obedience to God, but then, secondly, In a pragmatic sense, but I think it's a righteous, permissible pragmatism, even obligatory pragmatism, to beat the culture to the punch instead of the church always following the culture, right?
The church enters into wokeness because the culture did.
And then the culture is already reverting back.
The culture, in many ways, at the macro level, the culture is already done with wokeness.
And in some sense, you can make an argument that wokeness is actually being entertained at this point more, not less, but more in the church than it is with the culture because the culture is ahead of schedule.
The culture is, the tail is wagging the dog, the culture is leading the church.
And so the culture is already snapping back.
Into the culture is recognizing.
We have people on the massive political stage actually acknowledging and naming the liberal global order as something that's negative.
And so there is a reverting back to nationalism and I think a renouncing of feminism and these things.
And if the church doesn't get ahead of it, if the church is still trying to carve out some third way, some middle ground, Complementarianism, or whatever, and saying, Oh, you know, patriarchy is icky and nationalism is icky.
Well, then the culture will once again beat the church to the punch.
And if the culture beats us, reverting back to God's natural order, then the culture will also be the one that decides and determines what kind of nationalism we'll have, what kind of patriarchy we'll have.
And it won't be Christian if all the Christians are still over here denouncing nationalism and patriarchy because it's icky.
And the whole irony is that so much of that is out of the fear of man.
The desire to garner the praise of man.
But the people that we're trying to please have actually already, they've already switched allegiances.
And so you're still trying to appease to woke culture.
Woke culture is dead.
It already lost.
It had its headache.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, it's still kind of the body, the head has been completely severed and removed, and the body's still flapping.
You know, the nerve endings are still, you know, like just this involuntary thrashing, but it's in the death throes.
Woke culture lost.
But the The church, because it doesn't exercise sincere, genuine, righteous courage, and rather so often is trying to appease man rather than God.
The church, not only does it fail to be faithful to Christ by choosing to please man over God, but it actually doesn't even please man because often in its attempts to please man, it's almost constantly, at least for the last 50, and you could argue even 130 years here in the West, and particularly America, it's behind the times.
It's always behind the culture.
So the church is literally.
Choosing faithlessness, not faithfulness, but faithlessness to Christ in favor of pleasing the world.
And the church doesn't even do that.
It doesn't even please the world.
It's trying to please the world as it was in 2019, when now it's like it's 2025.
Donald Trump is president.
You got Pete Hedge.
You say Hedge.
I say Hedge.
Which one is right?
Tomato, tomato?
One of the two.
I'm going to say Hedge.
At the very least.
But, like, my point is the culture is already radically pivoted.
And so the church, not only is it failing to be faithful to Christ by choosing the approval of man over the approval of God, but it's actually missing both because it's approving to the world a worldly culture that is already shifted.
Wes, you mentioned the beach ball.
And I think it's important to pause there for a minute because when you think about a beach ball and the ocean, there is a natural state that is proper.
The natural state is that the beach ball would float on top of the water.
And that's what the laws of buoyancy and volume and all of those things demand.
And that law can be suppressed.
But the point is, it takes pressure to suppress that law.
It takes a lot of pressure.
And if you think about a kid with his beach ball, I mean, he has to really push that thing down.
And sometimes it goes down slowly.
Right.
But the amount of effort that it takes to revert back to the state of nature, and we don't mean a Hobbesian state of nature here.
We mean the rules of reality.
The amount of effort that it takes to return that situation to the laws of physics is almost none.
Right.
It just pops straight up.
And in fact, if we're not careful, we'll take out a podcast, Mike.
If we're not careful, what will happen is the return, Joel, you've said it.
And the question is just how much will be violent.
And I think in some ways, one of the things that we need to think about as Christians is how can we return that beach ball to its floating status, but like ease it back up so that it's not a cannonball explosion that's creating, you know, this huge splash.
But on its own, that is what will happen eventually.
The boy who's holding the ball under the water will get tired.
He'll let go.
It'll slip through his fingers and it'll come exploding out of the water again.
That's well stated.
In my opinion, the way to reinstate the natural, you know, state.
Wisely, carefully, in a way that it doesn't just launch up and overreact, overcompensate.
Pushing Upward While Culture Presses Down00:05:14
In my opinion, the only way to do that is not for the church to act in mitigated measures.
It's for the church simply to act urgently.
And what I mean by that is, right now, you still have the culture outside of the church suppressing the beach ball and pushing it down.
And so, what the church, the opportunity the church has now, Is while the culture is still putting pressure downward, the church can be pushing upward.
But if you wait for the culture just to stop pushing at all, then it's going to launch up.
So, how do we restore God's natural order wisely to where there's not an overreaction?
Ironically, I don't think the solution is for the church to be mitigated in its efforts or to hedge its bets or to be reserved.
I think it's actually, ironically, it's the opposite.
It's for the church to go.
To go hard and fast for the church to say, No, we want repentance.
And when do we want it?
Now.
We want the restoration of God's design for the world.
We want father rule, biblical patriarchy according to God's principles.
We want nationalism, but we want Christian nationalism according to God's law.
And we want these things, we want them now.
And to speak out and to do that urgently, boldly, quickly.
And that would be a force pushing up on the beach ball.
While it still has resistance from the culture.
If the church could simply lead the culture, then I think the church will be pushing up and the culture systematically and progressively lessens up on its pushing down, and the beach ball will rise steadily and securely.
If not, then what will happen instead is the church just won't push at all, which tends to be the case, at least has been in the recent history of the church here in America.
We just won't push at all.
And so then it'll just be the culture determining that's pushing downwards, suppressing.
It'll just be when the culture decides to let up.
And when the culture does decide to do that, it very likely will do it all at once.
Because the culture will do it when things become obvious.
Because the culture doesn't have insight to the word of God.
So the culture does things when they become obvious.
Obvious.
Like, just think of how many NFL players and NBA players and actresses and actors, like how many people started on a dime.
They turned on a dime doing the Trump dance.
Right.
Right.
Whereas, like 15 minutes prior, they were saying Kamala is so brat.
Right.
And then all of a sudden, it just.
And now it's literally embarrassing to be doing some kind of Kamala dance or talking about, like, who's Kamala?
Who's that?
Yep.
Like, you know, and so on a dime, that's how quick the culture, because the culture simply wants to appease the world.
So the moment there's critical mass, the moment that someone takes power and wins, that's all it takes is winning.
Not even being right necessarily, but just winning.
The moment that someone influential wins and says, And it becomes obvious because the culture just responds to what it sees, what's obvious, what's blatant.
And so the moment that the culture realizes it becomes obvious that globalism is no bueno, then they won't let up systematically.
They'll all let up at once.
And the beach ball will fly out of the water and revert to an extreme form of nationalism.
And not only extreme, but in terms of measure.
But also, type, category.
It won't be Christian nationalism.
It'll be some kind of Darwinian, pagan nationalism that's rooted in blood.
And there's a certain degree where heritage America, that does matter, people and place, but it'll be solely rooted in blood.
And you think that can't happen.
America, it can happen.
And it can happen in the blink of an eye.
It can happen before you know it, where all of a sudden everything shifts because it became obvious.
And the moment it becomes obvious, nobody wants to be.
Viewed as being clueless.
No one wants to be left in the dust.
Everyone wants to.
So you'll have in the same way that the culture, the world runs as soon as there's a new iPhone, you know, or as soon as there's a new this or a new that, and everybody wants to be cool.
Everybody wants to be on the right side of history.
The moment it becomes obvious to just a few influential people, it will all of a sudden become obvious to all.
Everyone will turn on a dime simultaneously, and it'll be as though.
Both hands are released from the beach ball that's been held, you know, five feet under the water, and it won't just slowly rise, you know, to the surface, but it'll shoot up, pop up, and go five feet up out of the water in an overreaction.
The rubber band snapping, you know, not back to its normative state, but snapping all the way back in the opposite direction.
Return to God's Natural Order00:02:37
And so I really do think that that overreaction is entirely possible, I would argue even probable.
And the only way to prevent it is the church, not the church being mitigated.
And measured, but the church actually being forceful, as forceful and urgent as it can be, while the pressure from the culture is still pushing against the church to balance it out.
And so, the culture, when the culture does let up, the church has already pushed the beach ball up closer to the surface.
So now it's shooting up, you know, five inches instead of five feet.
That's my assessment.
Well, there comes a point, too, where you just take cover.
Like things get so messed up or something denied so long.
And it's much more about, like, I don't want to say personal, like, literally me, myself, and I.
But you also say to what point do you insulate just myself from this?
Let's head to our first commercial break.
And when we get back, we're going to talk about how this actually happens.
What are the mechanisms that actually make nature return to its default state?
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Applying Commandments in Business00:03:07
All right, well, welcome back.
Sometimes we can get the idea that we've got a long fight ahead of us, right?
The left, I mean, it depends where you trace it back to.
We're definitely talking decades, decades of work of propaganda.
There's a reason for that.
So, as we look at it, all right, we want to return, not to nature, like you said, in a Hobbesian state, not to a violent, cruel state, but we want to return to how it is that God made us.
One of the things we're seeing as we're discussing this about nature is not fungible.
Oxygen and its composition and its density relative to water.
That just can't be changed.
And so we were saying, in the same way, there's categories of how God made the world that they can't be changed either.
So they're coming back, they can't be changed.
And what are the ways that this would occur?
Well, look at how we got to it.
Well, it was a long process.
It took, like Michael said, force, I would argue, cultural power.
So it took decades, and the temptation could be, man, if it took decades to get to this point, are we in for 70 years of trying to get it back out?
You had first wave feminism, early 1900s, second wave, third wave.
Does that mean we need to have another 120 years of educating people and activism and this, that, or the other?
I have excellent news for you.
White pill.
It's a white pill for the day.
No.
Why?
What makes you say that?
Reality.
Think about love is love, for instance.
How long?
But decades, half a century of repeating it, of pushing it again and again and again.
Do you know what broke down that lie for me?
I was never supportive of it, but there came a point in 2016.
I got kind of indifferent.
So, we're talking almost 10 years ago at this point, but I was relatively indifferent.
And then I saw a simple statistic.
And I think I could literally trace it to just seeing this thing one in two gay men have 500 partners.
Love is love.
Oh, wait, no, that's not love.
Literally, decades of propaganda, suppression of the natural order, which, for the record, is that homosexuality is gross.
That's the natural order.
The natural response of men to seeing other men that are affectionate towards one another, PDA in public.
Is disgust.
You need to cultivate that.
It needs to come up.
I would suggest mean mugging.
I practice it, especially in front of my kids or something like that.
That's the default state.
It took decades of work to try to make it like, no, this is beautiful and lovely and all of that.
And I think there's literally people that, like, it all came unraveled.
They just heard a statistic like that Race isn't real.
Well, 99% of cornerbacks in the NFL are black, a position prized for speed and athletic ability.
Oh, wait, yeah, race is real.
It's a real category.
So there's tons of different things.
And you could say, oh, my goodness, it took so long to weave this lie.
I now see that it's a lie.
But we're in for the long haul to try to undo this.
The point we're making it took them 40 years, it'll take us 40 years.
The point I'm making is not going to take us 40.
It's not going to take us 20.
It could legitimately take four.
That's what you have to see things change quickly.
They really do.
And so don't box yourself into when you're changing stuck.
Weaving Lies Over Decades00:03:10
Yeah.
So change, period, can be quick.
But especially when the particular change that is in mind is a change of reverting back to the natural order.
Exactly.
So you think of like.
How long it would take in the Sahara Desert to pipe in water and do plumbing and then set up buildings and structures and put HVAC and all these kinds of things in order to create an environment that's 68 degrees with zero humidity, namely inside.
That would take months, arguably years, if you're building a whole town.
In order to establish, to create that environment that is contrary to the natural habitat and the natural environment.
But in order for that space, those cubic feet inside of a structure that has insulation and electric and plumbing and HVAC and all these things that's 68 degrees and zero humidity, for it to revert back to 110 degrees and the natural, like you can do that with very little skill and very little time.
You can do that with a sledgehammer.
In an afternoon.
Exactly.
And so that's what we're talking about we're talking about not just change in general, change in general in either direction can at times very often be surprising in terms of its speed.
But change in the right direction, going with the grain instead of against it, that change can happen rapidly.
It doesn't take much.
All it takes is a few, and in some cases, even just one major event.
I mean, think of the change that we're already experiencing.
So much of it is because of COVID.
And BLM, like that, the left overplayed its hand.
The flu and a fake $20 bill.
Yep.
The flu and a fake $20 bill.
Right.
Changed the world.
The world.
And rapidly, rapidly.
And so all you're talking about is, you know, a few or even just one significant event that just lays bare the reality and actual statistics of this or that or whatever.
And all of a sudden, boom, it's over.
And, but if the church, Can do its weekly work of law and gospel and discipleship and training and preaching and teaching and being a prophetic voice in the culture to shape hearts and minds.
In the meantime, before that cultural, you know, ground shaking event actually takes place in the province of God, if the church can be pushing the culture a little bit, you know, from being five feet under the water, going back to the beach ball illustration, to being one foot under the water, like a little bit closer to the surface, so that when the event happens, it It pops up, you know, but it's only got another foot to go instead of five feet to go.
Then that will make all the difference in the world in setting up a hedge and a protection against overreactions.
Standing Against Unfit Voters00:09:09
Your sledgehammer comment, by the way, just totally a side comment, is the reason why I'm not optimistic about us colonizing Mars.
That's true.
Yeah, right.
To cultivate it and make it a hospitable habitat environment takes just.
Unfathomable amounts and arguably even non existent.
It may not even be possible, but even if it is, just incredible amounts of effort for it to revert back to the status that it currently is, that is, you know, not, you know, where no living thing can thrive or last more than a few seconds.
All that takes is just one event.
You just convinced me out of Mars colonization.
Although, to be fair, people would have said, like, oh, all of this, like a car.
You're telling me just every single piece has to work well.
No way we'd be able to do it.
You're right.
And tied to that reality piece is public opinion.
Like when something's silly, it really takes sometimes just one person, a powerful person, to stand up and say, the emperor has no clothes.
I think of women serving in office.
There's a state representative, sorry, federal representative.
So at the federal level, and she's eight months pregnant, so she can no longer go to vote.
And she's sponsoring this bipartisan legislation.
So new parents can, like, who are congressmen or women.
Can vote when they're new parents.
All it's going to take, and she got a bunch of backlash for it, and I think more will come, is a bunch of people to stand up and go, Wait, do I want an eight month pregnant woman voting on legislation and deciding different economic, rule of law, and civil things for our nation?
Of course not.
That's stupid.
Because, and here's the deal women should serve in office.
I love her and her child enough.
Do you know the dramatic effects of stress on infant mortality, birth weight?
Birth complications in birth because I care about that woman and her child so much.
I eagerly desire that all through her pregnancy, she be at home with her husband, not traveling, and enjoying time with her child.
And that example, like we need this legislation so that I can work 12 hour days at the Capitol and then at eight months pregnant, that last month my pregnancy, go home and be voting remotely.
What if Elon Musk just stood up and said, That's stupid.
Why are women politicians?
Like that's how close we are, especially with platforms that are uncensored and things like that.
So, don't lose heart, Christian.
You can just, for one, you can just say things are stupid.
And as enough people and influential people say things are stupid the right way, public opinion, most people, they are not, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, so grounded and so principled that it's like, I would never fly that flag or whatever.
It's not principled.
No.
No.
Most people, I mean, the harsh reality, but it's God's world.
He designed it.
Hierarchy is inescapable.
Most people are not rulers, and for a reason, most people are not fit to rule.
And so the reality is, you know, we have so many seminars and books that are written, and even the church and its focus on, you know, leadership and leadership, leadership.
But the reality is that not everybody is a leader.
The vast majority of people are not leaders.
I think that every man is called by God to be able to be a leader of some level in his home, with his wife, with his children.
But the reality is that the vast majority of the population are not leaders.
And all it really requires, like this idea that, you know, that I've got to, you know, in order to make change, we have to have the majority.
It's got to be 50% plus one, you know.
And in order to have the majority, it all has to, you know, facts don't care about feelings, you know.
And so it's got to be, you know, logical, factual arguments that ultimately change people's minds and persuade people, convince people.
And you have to do that, you know, one heart and one mind at a time, all the way down the line until you get 50% of the population plus one.
And that's not the way that change works.
It's just not.
Most people, you know, like, and I don't mean to be rude by this, but it's just one of the best illustrations, you know, to make the point.
Most people are NPCs.
They're non player characters.
That's a term that comes from video games, where you're walking around and it might be a multiplayer video game and you're linked up and playing online.
And so there's other people where there's a real human being behind the controller controlling that avatar.
But most of the people in the game are not actually human players.
They're programs and they're just doing whatever they're programmed in that particular moment by the computer, not a person, but by the computer to do.
And so too it is with the population of the world.
Most people are NPCs.
In other words, all you have to do, back to the Kamala and Trump example, is you've got all these teenage girls saying, she's so brat, and doing their TikTok dance videos.
And just like a computer, all you do is all of a sudden, Kamala doesn't just lose in the electoral vote, but also the popular vote.
And a bunch of things are exposed of how ridiculous and unintelligent she really is.
And not just that she's unintelligent on the merits of arguments, but she's no longer cool.
And just like that, overnight, it's as though millions of teenage girls had the back of their head opened up and the she's so brat Kamala chip is taken out and then the Trump dance chip is put in.
And all of a sudden, I've seen this with even people that I know, especially teenagers, that were like, oh, we hate Trump.
We hate Trump.
And now you could not get them to admit that they didn't like Trump because it's not cool.
Even in high schools, even like.
Like, it's not, it's not, nobody is admitting that they were for Kamala.
And I remember they all were for Kamala.
They were all for Kamala.
And now they're like, oh, yeah, we always knew that she was dumb and Trump is really cool.
You know, like, why?
Because of facts don't care about your feelings?
Because people made factual arguments?
No, we've been making factual arguments for Trump since 2015.
Like, well, he's, you know, a convicted felon.
Well, but here's actually the court case and here's the evidence and here's, you know, nobody cared.
It's not that the factual arguments all of a sudden began to work and that people were intellectually convinced.
No, that's not what happened.
What happened was not that you persuaded people.
What happened is that you beat people.
Somebody won.
And the moment that someone wins, a minority actually, it doesn't take a majority, but the moment that a minority group of people sees power and effectively and sufficiently win, then all the NPCs, the chip gets switched and they fall in line.
That's the way the world works, like it or not.
Now, that's not the way conversion works.
So the church still has its job, right?
So before we're trying to, you know, In terms of the gospel and matters that are spiritual and eternal, we're trying to convince a bunch of Kamala voters that they need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of their sin.
And now we're going to be trying to convince a lot of Trump voters that they need, like, so they still need salvation.
Like, that's something that is one heart and one mind at a time that the Holy Spirit has to do, working in conjunction with the church and with Christians and the proclamation of the gospel and all these things.
So that's inescapable.
And that is a long, that is a 40 year, you know, or 400 year, you know, work of the, The mustard seed that doesn't overnight but slowly and progressively grows into a tree, or the leaven that has to work progressively, you know, gradually through the whole batch of dough.
That's gospel ministry.
That's hearts and minds in an eternal spiritual sense.
But in the temporal world, if we're speaking of not soteriology, salvation theology, but we're speaking of political philosophy and how cultures change and how politics change, that's a power dynamic.
That's different.
That's a different category.
Yep.
Michael, any thoughts?
Only that I was going to say something similar to what you said, Wes, but it bears thinking about.
The fact that most people really will just do, it's interesting, right?
Because we said before the election that Taylor Swift controlled up to a fifth of the vote in America.
So, well, that I don't think is the case anymore.
I bet that statistic is just poof, gone.
And so I remember- Just lost.
Yeah.
Well, that's my point.
I remember being a little bit blackpilled before the election thinking, like, it doesn't matter how many people we convince because Taylor Swift's just going to say this and a fifth of the country is going to vote for Kamala.
Well, that's gone in less than a few months, right?
So, just to bring it back to where you started this segment, Wes, is it can happen very quickly.
And the reason why it can happen very quickly is because people are political animals and to go back to the beach ball because the beach ball wants to get back to the surface.
Yep.
Yeah, we're talking about change, but we're talking about changing things with the grain, going back to God's natural order, not against it.
Winning By Few Or Many00:03:20
And so, we have God on our side.
If the Lord be for us, who can be against us?
The Lord can win by few or by many.
And so we have that.
But we also, I think, what Christians neglect is that not only do we have the Spirit of God, not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord, not by sheer numbers, 50% plus one, but by the Spirit of God.
But in addition, we also have not only the Spirit of God, but the world of God, not the Word of God.
We have that.
But we also have the world of God, meaning the world that God made.
We not only have God on our side, but because we have God on our side, we also have nature on our side, because nature is subservient, it's in service of.
God, of Christ.
Nature obeys God's rules.
And so we are working with God, but we're also working with nature.
Whereas all those in rebellion towards God are working against the grain.
And that's why it takes a long march through the institutions to get a bunch of people to think Marxism is a good idea.
It does not take a long march through the institutions to get them to see that gay communism is a bad idea.
Yep.
We'll go to our last commercial break and we'll come back.
We're going to talk about.
The dangers of the blowback.
All right, the clock is running out.
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Equipping Believers For Legacy00:04:13
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All right.
So imagine you were competing in the Olympics in javelin throwing and you're training.
I'm going to pretend you're not.
This is a fantastic analogy, guys.
So I just heard it once beforehand.
I'm already excited about it.
He's heard it once.
He's singing its praises.
So now I'm hoping I don't change it somehow in the midst.
And you're practicing for javelin throwing.
That's going to be your Olympic sport you're competing in.
And you step up and you make your first throw, whatever the weight would be, whatever the target would be.
And you are off base.
We're not talking like the bullseye's here, you're just outside, right on the line.
We're talking missing the target.
What's your next adjustment?
Two to three degrees, two to three inches.
Given that you have limited shots.
Given you have limited shots.
That's very important in this analogy.
Exactly.
Given all these different variables, what do you, as it aims small, miss small?
You're aiming big so you don't miss big.
You can do the pendulum, you can do the beach ball, you can do the javelin throwing, you could do archery, same thing.
When you're trying to return, With a big difference, wide birth.
Because we've been way off.
Because we've been way off.
You don't have the luxury of the nuances, the subtleties, the small adjustments.
I think of the relation of men and women.
We have been emphasizing, you, Joel, especially, for years, the importance of the biblical roles of the husband working, head of the home, the leader in his home, and the wife as barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.
No, not just that.
But we have been emphasizing the woman's role is, if she is married to, Bear children, to be a keeper at home and to love her.
She's a helpmate to her husband.
Absolutely.
Woman was made for man, not man for woman.
Yep.
I don't like the way you interpreted that scripture.
I didn't interpret it.
Ma'am.
I quoted it.
Yep.
And one of the critiques we'll get is that there was an older and a deeper conception of the relation between men and women that wasn't just cast in terms of authority and submission of children and home.
And I do think that's actually true.
If you look at the aristocratic class, for example, in England, but most certainly in the Old South, they didn't have the kind of buckets that we have.
Is she a keeper at home or is she?
A girl boss?
Is she, you know, like love her children or is she just indifferent to them?
But we're forced to think in those terms.
We're forced to use a big bucket and really emphasize we've got to get back to the home.
We've got to get back to the domestic duties.
We've got to get back to the core idea of submission because nature has been suppressed for so long.
And in getting back to that, like the javelin, when you're way off base, you don't have the luxury of the shades of gray, of discerning.
You've got to make a wholesale return.
And the point is, it's not going to be pretty.
I really don't think that you just go from three waves of feminism and a century.
Dabney was writing about this in the late 1800s about the women's rights movements and everything.
You don't undo 150 years in your course correction.
You try to take your javelin and not overshoot by 25 feet and just hit the bullseye.
Nailed it.
Second shot.
You're going to be off base, maybe a little bit short, not by 25 feet, maybe by five, but still off base.
And you have to understand, or I think it would be beneficial to understand and something to be mature about and realize.
There's going to be young men, there's going to be young women, there's going to be movements.
And by God's grace, they're correcting where we were way off.
But there's going to be excesses.
And in that, it's not excess because necessarily sin, because they don't know what the truth is, but it's going to be because we lost a skill.
Because we lost hundreds of years of aristocratic development, education, thought, maturity, Christian influence on the relationship of men and women.
We threw it away over 150 years.
And so you don't get 400 years of that.
Back in a decade.
Oh, we're perfectly back to this perfectly.
You don't get that.
Same thing with nationalism.
Deportation, like, I don't think it's going to be perfectly meted out.
There might be good people we love.
They're going back to the country that we came from.
Church Must Lead The Culture00:14:39
And that's not necessarily a critique of this evil, wicked government system that required it.
No, when you deny nature, when you deny these for this long, you don't get to be frustrated when the beach ball splashes everybody on.
The beach.
Right.
And the thing that I would add to that, yes and amen, a thousand times to everything you just said, the only thing I would add is I could just, I could, I can hear, I can almost hear the counter from, you know, Christians saying, well, I'm glad you guys realize that, but it's kind of pathetic that you guys are, you're talking about yourselves without connecting the dot.
You are the overreaction.
You are.
And so, Michael, if you could, real quick, I know it'll take you a second, but I can keep talking while you're looking, but could you get that Calvin quote one more time?
We used this on a prior episode, and I want to use it one more time because Because I've thought about this a lot, you know, because believe it or not, people think I'm extreme, you know, and after careful consideration each day, I wake up in the morning and decide to become even more extreme, you know, but I actually do carefully consider it from time to time.
There's some introspection and, you know, some self evaluation and, like, and certainly just as a Christian man, prayer and, like, Lord, am I going too far?
Am I overreacting?
Is this an over response, you know, to the cultural ills of the day?
And there are moments where I think it is.
And here's the crazy thing, though, in my personal life, And just my relationship with the Lord, every time I think, like, maybe I did overreact, I'll ask the Lord to help, you know, recenter me on what's objective and not just what I'm feeling in the moment or the response, you know, the reactions that I got from, you know, the peanut gallery and other people and, like, not let that determine what's objective, but go to His Word.
And in addition to His Word, His Word first, and that's primary and supreme.
But then also go to older men.
Guys who I think are tried and tested and true, and who weren't living and swimming in the world that I'm living and swimming in today, who might be able to provide more perspective and clarity and objectivity.
So, looking at the scripture first and then looking at commentaries and those who worked as theologians and pastors with the scripture and see, like, okay, I've been pushing hard against the grain and not just the culture in the world, but the culture even in the church, because I think the church today is corrupted and flawed in many ways and is given into the spirit of.
You know, the age and feminism, these kinds of things.
And so I'm reacting to that, but have I overreacted?
And every time I feel like I have, when I go to the Lord and ask Him to give me an objective, clear perspective, I always realize that I don't think anyone on the Christian right has really overreacted, like virtually anyone.
So, can you read that?
So, take feminism as an example.
It's like, well, Joel, like you guys are talking about, you know, that you need to be careful because there might be an overreaction.
What we're saying is we think that there might be an overreaction.
From the unbelieving godless world, when the world starts to recognize the things that we're talking about, when the world starts to see that globalism is gay, when the world starts to see that feminism is toxic, and when the world makes these realizations and the world begins to make its corrections, I think the unbelieving world will overreact.
I do not think that the church is even close to overreacting, even those who are the most conservative within the church, namely people like us.
So, everything that you've heard me say about biblical patriarchy and railing against feminism and all these things, here's Calvin.
Right.
Can you read it?
This is from Men, Women, and Order in the Church, three sermons by John Calvin.
And this is what he says.
He says, Yet consider now whether women are not quite past sense and reason.
In other words, whether women are crazy or not, when they want to rule over men.
In a word, it is madness.
For were men made for women?
It is true that today men are as channels through which God causes his grace to stream down upon women.
Far Four, from whence does labor come?
From where do all the most excellent things and highly esteemed things come?
To be sure, it all comes from the men's side.
Just stop there for just a second.
I mean, if I said that and I didn't tell people that I was quoting Calvin, people would lose their minds.
They'd say, You're a chauvinist, and this is an extreme overreaction that all the most excellent things come from the men's side.
Right.
Go ahead.
They're all fine with the language superior, inferior.
Not George Gilder.
William Gooch.
William Gooch, not George Gilder, but William Gooch.
Yeah, he was like the superior speaking to the man, the inferior speaking to the woman.
Go ahead.
Yep.
Yet St. Paul has an eye here to the beginning of the creation, where it was said that it was not good for the man to be alone and that he needed someone at hand who would always be ready to help.
Since God was thinking of the man, it certainly follows that the woman is only an accessory.
And why?
Because she was only created for the sake of man, and she must therefore direct her whole life toward him, she must confess.
And real quick, those aren't questions, those are statements.
Like he's saying, why?
Here's the answer because she was only created for the sake of the man.
Yep.
I would add the word accessory.
We don't mean this like someone would put on a watch and then get a different watch.
This is like an accessory to murder, like a partner in something.
Yep.
I help.
I help.
Yep.
Okay.
Go ahead and finish.
So it says, and why?
Because she was only created for the sake of man.
and she must therefore direct her whole life toward him.
She must confess, I am not supposed to be without direction here, not knowing my purpose and station.
Rather, I am obliged by God, if I am married, to serve my husband and render him honor and reverence.
And if I am not married, I am bound to walk in all soberness and modesty, cognizant that men have the higher rank, and that they must rule, and that the woman who disregards this forgets the law of nature and perverts what should be observed as God commands.
This This then, the place to which St. Paul brings back women.
Law of nature.
He did a natural theology.
Yep.
So here's the point.
My assessment in a nutshell is this that if the church doesn't lead the culture and instead relegates herself to being led by the culture, the culture itself actually will recalibrate and return because God will not be mocked.
Nature is healing, nature is restoring itself, and things that go against the grain, go against God's natural order, may appear to work, but only temporarily.
That they're not in the long run viable or sustainable.
So the world is starting to wake up and realize these things.
And the world.
I even saw Tim Poole.
One of the episodes of his podcast this week was Nature is Healing Itself, D E I Z. Far right wing Tim Poole.
That's right.
Yeah, which, and Wes, of course, is joking.
Like he's a centrist.
He's barely, you know, barely.
As generous on a good day.
Yeah, I mean, the dude is even.
He's for abortion in several cases.
You know, he's not for it in every case.
And that, like, makes him a conservative by, you know, Today's standards.
But the point is, guys who are like, they're not even center right.
They're just straight up centrist, you know, like your Bill Maher types that are like left center, you know, like these guys are starting to come to the realization that we've completely lost the thread.
And so, as the world realizes this, if the church doesn't lead the way, then the world will lead the way in the realization and the world will also then get to lead the way in the reaction.
If the world realizes how far off the rails we are before the church does, Then the world will be therefore in the position to make the determination of how to right the wrongs.
And the church won't.
And if the world does that, what I'm saying here, as we're offering some very pastoral warnings, we're not saying, and so watch out, young Christian men, and watch out, Right Response Ministries, and New Christendom Press, and Contra Mundum, and Stephen Wolf.
You guys watch out.
Don't be too extreme.
No, no, no.
I don't think any of us.
Have overreacted even once.
Every time I think I have overreacted, I go to the Lord, ask Him to help me to see objectively, and I realize that I'm still underreacting, that I'm still not being quite courageous enough or faithful enough.
Objectively, we are to the left.
Calvin, Dabney, Matthew Henry, all of us, objectively, on race, on women, on Christianity.
I read William Googe and what he talks about with the nature of the relationship between men and women and marriage, and I feel uncomfortable.
My feminism starts to show.
My feminism, like William Guj, if he was here, he'd say, Joel, you're a feminist.
And so, my point is, um, this, uh, that here at the end of the episode, the warnings that we're giving, pastoral warnings, is not to say, hey, you young, you know, far right extremist, you know, Christian man, you know, watch it with your podcast.
That's not what we're saying.
Uh, we're saying that, um, the entity that we think is most likely to overreact, truly overreact, will be the unbelievers, it'll be the unbelieving culture, the unbelieving world.
And the best that we can do as Christians.
To head that potential reality off before it comes to fruition is for the church to beat the world to the punch.
For the church, for once in the last 70 years, to actually lead the culture and be the first to say, the emperor has no clothes, globalism doesn't make sense, feminism doesn't make sense, endless immigration doesn't make sense.
For the world, being colorblind doesn't make sense.
We don't want to necessarily be race essentialist where everything is about race, but there is something to be said for race realism and realizing that Galatians, it says they're neither male nor female.
Okay, yeah, in the eternal sense, but male and female still exist.
We don't use that and exegete it and therefore say, well, I guess transgenderism is on the menu.
No, the conservative Christian says male and female is still a thing.
Paul's just talking about in Galatians, in the eternal sense of Galatians 3, that before the foot of the cross, that the man and his wife are co heirs in grace, but in the natural temporal plane, certainly male and female distinctions remain.
And so too, when Paul says Jew or Greek, there are still racial distinctions, there are gender distinctions, there are Um, there are also economic and class distinctions between employer and employee, the master and slave, and so all these distinctions in the temporal sense in nature still exist.
And if the church doesn't beat the world to the punch, I'm not concerned about young Christian men overreacting, that is not an inherent danger that's on the horizon, despite all the libs in the church, you know, LARPing as conservatives, you know, continue to say that it's a danger.
It's really not the true danger.
Is the unregenerate man who has nature only with no grace component whatsoever?
When he, when the chickens come home to roost for him and he realizes how far off we are with the javelin that we've been missing by 50 yards, he's the guy who's going to do a 180 about face and miss the target again by 50 yards in the other direction.
It's the unregenerate response that will be the overreaction.
And the best that the church can do to prevent that is not to be mitigated, but actually to be even louder.
So that we can actually take the reins before somebody else realizes that the stagecoach is going off the highway and they take the reins, but they don't know how to drive and they rear us into the other ditch.
Not mitigated, militant.
Let me end with this because you could contend man, man in a state of nature is, I mean, he is indulgent, he's violent, he's drunk.
And that actually is true.
Grace is what then takes, not by creating new categories, But it takes nature and it actually perfects it.
It takes man's sex drive and it channels it to creating a family.
And so, in all of that, the point is not that we've got to get away from the state of nature into a state of grace, into a new category.
No, grace is coming in and it's coming to nature, how God made the world, the same categories, the same distinctions, the same all of that.
And it's taking them and making them Christian nationalism, Christian husbands, Christian families.
Now, there would still be families and there'd still be men and there would still be nations.
Even without grace, a Christian conception of race comes into those.
Yep, race, all these things grace comes into those, perfecting them within where they exist.
That's the X factor that Christians can do, or they can leave out.
And we'll get nature, that's the point.
We'll get nature one way or the other.
Will be nature elevated, aiming towards perfection through grace, or will be the cold, bitter, cruel reality of nature.
Nature, no fall.
Yep, that's it.
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