Right Response Ministries host critiques the Gospel Coalition's embrace of egalitarianism, citing Colin Hansen and Michael Kruger while dismissing Jen Wilkin and Corey Porter. He argues Scripture limits women to domestic roles, warns against "church mothers," and claims flattening gender hierarchies mirrors dangerous racial politics. The discussion extends to immigration restrictions for syncretized nations like Haiti, marriage rules forbidding Christian women from atheists, and strategies to help wives abandon feminism through social pressure at the upcoming April 2025 conference. Ultimately, the segment asserts that biblical patriarchy remains essential for church order and national stability. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Why Leave a Five Star Review00:14:53
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When you give us a positive review, what that does is it triggers the algorithm so that our podcast shows up on more people's news feeds.
You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.
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Last week, the Gospel Coalition was very concerned that Reformed and Evangelical churches are not integrating men and women together like they should.
Where are all the women teaching Sunday school with a mixed group of both men and women being present?
Why don't we have more women discipling men and acting as church mothers?
But we've seen these ideas before, and in time, without exception, they all lead to egalitarianism.
How many more times will supposedly reformed ministries and professors downgrade their theology and practice and inevitably spiral into theological liberalism before we finally get a clue and hold the line that Scripture commands?
This episode from the Gospel Coalition is exceedingly gay.
Tune in now.
I'm going to be honest with you.
This one, it's going behind the paywall.
It's not something we typically do.
In fact, thus far, every single piece of content that we've produced here at Right Response Ministries has eventually been made available to you for free publicly.
This is an exception, though.
First two episodes will launch publicly.
The next seven episodes will exclusively be available for our members at patreon.com forward slash Right Response Ministries.
Why?
Well, I'll give you the reason.
Because right now, the vast majority of evangelical Christians are not ready for the conversation that we have in these episodes.
And frankly, you and I both know that many of those individuals are actually bad faith actors who will seek to slice it up, take us out of context, put it out there for the World Wide Web in order to discredit this ministry and see to it that we're canceled.
And honestly, I'm not willing to let that happen.
What conversation am I even talking about?
I'm talking about a nine part series between myself.
And Pastor Andrew Isker on Israel.
The history, the scripture, the whole big shebang.
Check it out at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
You can get every single episode available now, all of it ad free.
And here's a couple clips just to whet your appetite.
And so our entire moral framework is based around 1930 and 1940.
And every bad thing is Hitler, every failure to confront the bad thing is Neville Chamberlain.
And Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Vladimir Putin, Hitler, Donald Trump, Hitler.
That's the only moral framework that we have that is operable.
So the moment that a young man crosses the aisle and the don't believe your lying eyes rhetoric doesn't work any longer, and he's just noticed too much because it really is that blatantly obvious.
He has nowhere else to go.
And crosses the aisle.
Well, the moment he crosses the aisle, there's no reasonable, wise, mature leader over there.
You would just have the guys on the TV telling them, This is what the Bible says.
You have to believe this, right?
On the radio, the Christian radio stations, you'd only hear those guys preaching that particular thing.
When that is actually, when you look at all of church history, that's the minority view, the tiny minority view.
The rest of theological history in the church is that, you know, is the kind of stuff that we're saying.
Yeah, this one's a banger.
Again, go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries to get all nine parts ad free.
Right now, available today.
All right.
Good to be back with you guys.
It looked like I got the call last week, but I'm just out sick.
Nobody gave the ring.
Shut it down.
So good to be back with you guys.
We're going to be talking about the Gospel Coalition.
I want to rewind the clock just a little bit because if I had a dollar for every day that someone got on a podcast and said something silly, well, I would never have to work again.
So, why this topic, why these individuals that we're about to spend this episode reviewing and these ideas that we talked about?
To rewind the clock a little bit, if you became a Calvinist, say 2010 to 2020 and onward, one of the biggest organizations, one of the biggest, they're parachurch, so not a denomination, not a church, but parachurch, so kind of spanning across these denominational lines, was the Gospel Coalition.
They brought together on their board individuals like Matt Chandler and John Piper and D.A. Carson, some of the most influential men in American evangelicalism, and they put out material that millions upon millions of people at some point consumed.
So if you became a Calvinist 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, you know who these people are.
And they still hold a lot of legacy influence.
So, this is not just someone that fired up their webcam in their basement, just took a whole new reading of scripture.
We're not talking about that at all.
We're talking about a massive organization.
Even still, it's fallen off in recent years to a significant degree.
I would say even its readership, its attendance to its conferences.
But this is still, by and large, within evangelicalism, these are the resources that a lot of pastors, a lot of lay leaders, a lot of just individuals are consuming.
This is who they're listening to.
These are the articles they're reading.
They want advice on politics and the election.
The Gospel Coalition for years has been kind of the staple of Reformed evangelical thought.
And so, for a Gospel Coalition to come out and say some of these things that we're about to review is incredible.
And you'll notice so, we titled this The Gospel Coalition Embraces Egalitarianism.
If you can think about maybe hierarchy, you would have hierarchy on one end.
Egalitarianism is the flattening of all hierarchy, it's a removal of hierarchy, of status, of superiority, of anything of that.
So, you have hierarchy and you have egalitarianism.
And we titled it Gospel Coalition Embraces Egalitarianism.
Now, is the Gospel Coalition openly advocating for women filling the pulpit?
Well, no, not yet.
But here's the deal ideas grow up.
If you read Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto, it is surprisingly absent of any references to starving millions and millions of peasants, of destroying the workers, of hating them.
Well, why is that?
Because that happened by the millions in China and in Russia.
Well, ideas, when they mature, when they come to fruition, that's when you actually begin to realize what they're all about.
And make no mistake, the ideas that are presented here that you're going to hear espoused, when they grow up, when the tree finally bears its fruit, you will have a plethora of women preachers, women teaching Sunday school.
You will have functional egalitarianism across the board.
Just for the record, you won't just have that.
You're not just going to have an epidemic of female Sunday school teachers and mixed groups.
Even as bad as that is, what is far more heartbreaking is.
Is you're going to have an epidemic of 40 year old, 50 year old, 60 year old single women who are childless.
And you're basically, you're functionally going to have the church is going to have functionally an epidemic of widows.
You're going to have all these widows who actually were never married because they were told to use their gifts for the church.
And so they forewent childbearing, they forewent marriage, all these kinds of things.
And then pastors are going to have, in these types of churches, these gospel coalition esque churches, One of their, you know, 70, 80% of their pastoral work is going to be just trying to minister to lonely, disenfranchised women who should have been mothers and at a certain point should have been grandmothers and weren't.
And they're going to be angry when they realize that Tim Keller lied to them and they realize what they lost.
They're going to be furious.
And not only that, you know, those will be.
Some of the women down the road who are either officially or unofficially running or helping run churches and ministries.
Right.
And so there's a certain grace that when you align with God's roles, men need to be dragged into adulthood, kicking and screaming.
That's why God has them get married and then have kids.
And women need to be tempered, you know, and that's why God puts them under a husband.
And so when you have women running a ministry, either formally or informally, and You know, I'm on board with the prediction that eventually the Gospel Coalition will be egalitarian, probably will be ordaining women, that sort of thing.
Of these churches, maybe not as an organization, but the that kind of woman, apart from just the impulse to occupy that position of leadership, she will also be untempered, as it were, through children, through childbirth, and through male headship.
And that that is really a situation for terrible, even more abusive than the quote unquote abusive leadership that we see from men, which is really just cowardly leadership.
She'll be untempered, unhinged.
Yep.
Maybe even unsupervised women tweeting.
That's right.
We should hop right into it.
Let me just introduce one thing, though.
So, four people on this.
We're going to show some clips.
We're going to show some clips.
We're going to get right into it.
The four people on this Colin Hansen and Michael J. Kruger are the two men that are on this.
Colin Hansen is editor in chief at Gospel Coalition.
Michael J. Kruger, my goodness, he should know better.
He is one of the preeminent, I would say preeminent Protestant scholars on the canon of scripture.
That is to say, how did we arrive at the 66 books that we deem to be the inspired word of God?
So, he's the preeminent Protestant theologian on these and the president of Reformed Theological Seminary Charlotte.
So, if you're in the PCA or the OPC, it's very likely that men, elders in your presbytery, so your surrounding area, were taught by either Michael Kuger himself, most certainly influenced.
And these ideas are what they're getting at seminary.
He's going to talk about how they run seminary to make sure that they're preparing women and men to do this type of egalitarian, this functionally egalitarian ministry.
So, these are very influential men.
I purposely, there's two women on this, Jen Wilkin and Corey Porter.
I didn't take, besides like a 20 second snippet, anything from them, any clips, anything of what they're saying.
Because I'll be honest with you, I don't know that they know better.
I don't know their husbands.
I don't know their church.
I don't know their pastor.
As Paul says in the scriptures, women are more easily deceived.
And so I don't even think it's fair for us to sit here and to critique Jen Wilkin as if she's an equal.
We're going to deal with the opinions, the thoughts, the takes, and they're bad of the qualified men in this conversation.
And I think that's what I want to get back to chivalry.
Men deal with men when we have arguments and disputes.
That's iron sharpening iron.
This maybe would be closer to iron and a Twinkie Cake, but men should be having this.
Qualified men, not men versus women or women versus men.
That's good.
All right, real quick before we show the clip, help us out for the algorithm.
Go ahead and like this video right now.
I'm just going to say it a couple of times.
I'm looking at the screen right now.
I can see the thumbs up.
I know that it lags.
So it'll be like a minute, maybe 45 seconds before my voice starts to trigger.
We need you guys to get this out.
Help us out.
Go ahead.
And when I say give us a thumbs up, I said this like last week or the week before, and everybody started putting thumbs ups in the chat, which that helps too.
So leave a comment for the algorithm.
You can put a thumbs up in the chat, and that's fine as a comment.
But when I say a thumbs up, what I mean is actually like the video.
Like the video, like the video, like the video.
You do that, it gets it out to more people, and more people are confronted with biblical truth so that they stop listening to things like the Gospel Coalition.
So, all right.
So, there are many things that we all share in common.
There are ways that we would be different from each other as well.
But one of the areas that we share in common within the Gospel Coalition is sharing a broad, complementarian perspective that the office of pastor and elder is reserved for qualified, qualified men.
And at the same time, we all agree that the body of Christ functions best when all of its members are valued and encouraged to use their gift.
You know, often these conversations are about what women can't do.
Many of the denominational debates that we see are often focused on the things that women cannot do.
And those can be important discussions, but we also want to continually affirm all the many, many things that God has called women to do in the church and alongside men.
So I just want to start with the basic question of how would you make the case that the church needs the ministry of women?
And I thought, Mike, that we'd begin with you and just look at a historical perspective.
One of the things that you teach and you're an expert in is the early church.
Talk about that.
Maybe even just bridge from the Bible.
Some of the biblical examples are a little bit more well-known, but bridge from that into the early church.
Yeah, I mean, I'm excited about this conversation because even in a few hours from now, I'll be doing a whole talk on why we need women in ministry and actually deals with a lot of the same issues here.
And that whole talk is designed to be an encouragement along the same lines we're discussing here, which is that men and women need each other.
And that is what complementarianism is about, right?
So some people take complementarianism as a way of saying, let's separate men and women from each other in ministry.
They don't really interact.
I'm like, well, no, it's the opposite.
We fit together, we need each other.
And that's true from the very beginning.
And it's true in the early church.
As you noted, I've Done a good bit of work on particularly second century Christianity, and I was rather shocked.
There's in the academic space, you're not shocked by many things, but I actually was, I thought I knew what was going on there, and I was shocked by just how many women were popping up in the historical sources all over the place.
And in my talk this afternoon, I'll mention a bunch of them.
But one example you know, in very early second century, as Christianity is spreading, some pagan governors, Pliny the Younger is really upset about Christianity spreading.
Apostles to the Apostles00:15:21
He's looking to find a couple Christians to torture and find out what's really going on in these secret meetings, and we're told in the historical record that it's two women he finds.
It's just very fascinating that the two people he picks to get more information about Christianity are women because women were flocking to it in great numbers.
So I'll add something to that if I can because I think the familial analogy is such a great illustration of what we're talking about here.
You mentioned, Jen, you got a sort of a very prominent father and an absentee mother as an analogy of the church.
I would say there's another analogy you could use here is that we wouldn't want sort of normal families to have two fathers and no mothers or two mothers and no fathers.
In fact, we've been seeing this in our society for years and we're like, no, no, families need.
Both the father and a mother to have the right balance and perspective.
Well, that's also true in the church, right?
Because we're a big family.
So, you know, whether it's a father that's prominent and a mother that's absent, but also you don't want a church that's only fathers because you end up with another imbalance there.
So I think that familial analogy is key.
We found this problem at the seminary level at RTS.
We realized that because seminary is mostly men, when we have a women's only ministry at the seminary, it can sometimes even exacerbate the problem because they feel even more isolated.
So what we tried to do is do both.
Allow them to have their opportunity to be together for obvious reasons, but also make sure we're working really hard to bring the male and female students together in spaces where they can interact with each other.
And truthfully, when you're training pastors, they need to know how to interact with women in their churches.
If you have a seminary environment that's supposed to train them and they're only interacting with their other guys, that actually isn't a very good training ground for what the real world is going to be when they get into churches.
Jen, you can come back later.
Well, let's talk about that right now of Corey's point of how do we go from.
How do we raise up and encourage other women teachers and leaders so that alongside they're doing their Jen Wilkins studies, they're also learning themselves to teach?
And I know this is your heart.
Hey, real quick.
So, Wes is going to take it.
You've got some great thoughts.
I have probably less great thoughts, but I got to just say this.
For that, that was three clips strung together.
And for those clips, I got to say, I really appreciated it.
The quietness, the quiet and gentle spirit that 1 Peter talks about.
Yeah.
The two men were talking.
Their talking was terrible.
So I'm not really pleased with the men, but I didn't hear a word.
They were learning with all submission.
They were sitting there learning with all submission, learning the wrong things, but they were quiet.
So, my favorite thing, I just want to come out of the gate.
My favorite thing about those three clips that were strung together is not hearing Jen Wilkins speak.
I love that.
Okay, go ahead.
She does this vocal fry to make her sound more masculine.
You may notice it if you listen to her on other things.
She literally manipulates her voice to try to sound more authoritative because a woman's voice is naturally not.
It doesn't have a gravitas to it.
Does she speak in the next string of clips that we're going to show?
A little bit.
A little bit.
So, you'll probably hear something.
Yeah, we can maybe, you know, if you want to talk about that, let's.
Let's do it once he's actually spoken.
Go ahead.
So, didn't have time to obviously couldn't take the whole 40 minutes to watch the full thing.
But here's the idea they're getting across.
And, Mike, I want to go to you too for some of this historical stuff that Michael Kruger talks about.
They take this idea of the church as a family, which it is, which we can talk about in a second.
They take this idea of the church as a family and say there's a neglected category we have, and that's the category of the church mother.
So, the church has fathers.
We would call them elders.
We would call them deacons that they teach and they labor, they protect and they have responsibility.
But the argument that they're making there is if you have a family and it has a father that's doing all these things, But it doesn't have a mother, then you're deficient.
So, Michael J. Gregory talks about this family analogy that we wouldn't want to have just two fathers, three fathers, and a normal family.
That wouldn't be a normal family at all.
We wouldn't want just fathers.
We wouldn't want just mothers, but we need these two together.
The analogy we are never given in Scripture.
So, God has instituted three spheres, would be a way to talk about this.
This would be Abraham Kuyper, the home, the church, and the state.
And he's given fathers to each one of them.
And in each of those spheres, the father actually carries a sword.
So, he's symbolic of in the state with the sword to avenge evildoers.
He's symbolic of justice, of rigidity, of being impartial.
Same thing in the spiritual realm the sword, which is the word of God.
It pierces, it divides, it lays bare.
So, the father in all three spheres, he's given a sword.
Now, in the home, we do have the role of the mother.
Children obey, not just your father, obey your parents in the Lord, your mother and your father that are given.
But we never see now there is some language of the church's mother, which Michael can get to in a minute, but we never see in anywhere in Scripture the idea of the role of mother given to either the state, so not in the state.
And not in the church either.
It's only in the home that we see that.
And I think the reason for it is that if a woman were to be put in the state and to take the role of mother, it would be a rigid and a cold and a judicial role.
It wouldn't be warm and affectionate the way the woman is inclined to be, but it would be a role of executing justice.
That's when we see when women are on the Supreme Court or even other court positions that they tend towards leniency because God has made women to be compassionate, to be forgiving, to be merciful.
So those traits, they're good.
It's good to be compassionate and merciful and loving.
But they're not suited for dealing out justice to a pedophile.
They're not suited for making law.
They're suited for the home.
And the same way in the church.
Now, Paul does say, I can actually pull up a couple of verses here that are helpful.
Paul does speak highly of women in the church.
But does he say they're mothers?
Does he say they're leaders?
Romans 16, verses 1.
Verse 1.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant at the church at Keneshaway.
Philippians 4, 3.
I also ask you, true companions, to help these women who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together.
He calls them laborers, fellow workers whose names are in the book of life.
We even see in Acts when Apollos is this great teacher.
He's speaking boldly in the synagogue.
Priscilla and Aquila, who are assumed to be a man and a woman, a husband and wife, they take him aside and they begin to teach him.
None of that presupposes a woman teaching Sunday school to a mixed audience, teaching on, say, like a Wednesday night, leading a prayer meeting.
None of that, the point is, is a church mother.
None of that is a role that is nowhere in scripture.
So they are making up.
This fanciful idea of some role where this woman, she can't teach on Sunday morning and she can't teach men because Timothy says that.
But then in all these other spheres, we'll let her disciple and we'll let her lead and we'll let her teach and we'll let her do all of these different things.
And so that's what I really wanted to get across home, church, state, fathers given to each one, civil fathers, spiritual fathers, physical fathers.
Mothers are a wonderful gift given to the home, though, not to the church and not to the state.
Yeah.
Right.
Well said.
Who is it?
It's either Junia or Junius, Junian.
Junius, I think.
Junius.
So there's a text where Paul says, you know, like I commend to you, just like he said with Phoebe, you know, I commend to you Junian.
Is that what you said?
Oh, Junia.
Junia.
Yep.
Junia, who is outstanding among the apostles.
Yep.
And, you know, egalitarians have used that for a very long time to say, look, there were even female apostles.
Whereas, like, clearly, what he's saying in that, you know, is that she is held in high regard.
She is viewed.
As outstanding by the apostles.
She's considered outstanding among the apostles.
That is, among the apostles, there is a view, a consensus, a consensus of this woman as being an outstanding Christian woman.
She's not among them being an apostle herself.
So there's been so many different scriptures that have just been tweaked and stripped from context and clearly read the wrong way.
You know, like people saying that Phoebe is a deacon, you know, because Paul uses the term deacon, but the problem with deacon, unlike the term elder, Is that deacon in the Greek?
It literally means servant in general term.
Yeah, so every single faithful member in the church is in some sort a deacon.
That doesn't mean that they're an ordained officer of the church.
That doesn't mean they're ordained to the diaconate.
So there's a difference in capital D deacon as an ordained office of the church, like the seven men filled with the Holy Spirit, you know, in Acts chapter six that are going to actually be appointed.
That's where you get Philip, that's where you get Stephen appointed to the office of the diaconate.
So not all.
Are going to be actually ordained officers as deacons in the formal sense.
But all faithful Christians belonging to a local church, as all faithful Christians should, will be deacons in the informal sense.
They will be servants of the church.
Of course they will.
And so whenever we get to some of these texts, and that's the, you know, Luther said, you know, the only infallible, you know, interpreter of Scripture is Scripture.
And whenever we get to what seems to us to be a more difficult, Passage of scripture, right?
So the perspicuity of scripture, perspicuity is just an unclear word that means clear.
And so, you know, the clarity of scripture, perspicuity of scripture, when we uphold that view of the scripture, which we do, that doesn't mean that all scripture is equally clear.
There are some texts that are more difficult to exegete than others, undoubtedly.
But the only infallible interpreter of scripture is more scripture.
So when we're in a text that is clear, but albeit less clear than other texts, then we go to the more clear text.
In order to interpret it.
So if we're looking at, well, was Junius really an apostle?
Okay, well, let's look at all the other texts of scripture that are abundantly crystal clear about, is a woman an elder?
Let's look at what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2.
Do apostles teach the word of God to both men and women?
Yes.
You bet.
And this is where people get, and I don't want to give it to them.
If this was 20 years ago and we were talking to, if this was a group, if Gospel Coalition was just starting out and this was a group of 20 somethings, like it was four teenagers sitting around a table doing a Bible study together with a webcam, like what you said earlier, then sure, but they know better.
They've been on this path for 20 years and they've only gotten worse.
And so the same thing that I did with the word deacon, you can do the same thing with the word apostle.
Well, apostle, it just technically just means errander.
And so, a woman who is, you know, just bringing, you know, anybody is an apostle if they're taking a message.
When, you know, the women who saw Jesus first after his resurrection, they went and told the disciples.
So, they're going to tell the disciples who will be apostles, they're going and telling the apostles, but by going on this errand sent by Jesus to go, and he says, and go and tell Peter also.
So, they have been commissioned and sent by Jesus to go and tell the apostles.
And what is an apostle in its basic form of definition is nothing but simply an errander, someone who is sent with a message, sent on an errand.
And so they've been sent by Jesus to the apostles.
So they are apostles to the apostles.
Not only are they now included among the apostles, they're the apostles squared.
Apostles squared.
Exactly.
Like you can get cute all day long, but that's stupid.
Jesus sent women to go tell the actual capital A apostles of Jesus Christ, commissioned by him with ecclesiastical authority, to send.
To tell them that he is risen.
And that was it.
That was their errand.
That doesn't mean that they never shared their faith with their children or with any other women in the local assembly or did the work of an evangelist with other women in the marketplace throughout the course of their life.
I'm sure they did all those things.
That's what Christians do.
But they did not bear an ecclesiastical, formal, ordained office.
They're not apostles.
And the fact that people got cute with that with church planting back in the day.
Well, a church planter is a lowercase apostle because.
That's what a church planter is.
He's going on anytime someone is sent out.
An apostle is one who is sent out, an errand.
And so, church.
So, we do have modern day apostles today.
No, we don't.
No, we don't.
I understand.
But sometimes being technical, being overly technical, is actually a way not of gaining more clarity, but it's an intentional and even deceitful way of losing clarity, of obscuring clarity.
And it's not helpful.
So, Phoebe is a lowercase d deacon, meaning simply.
She's a faithful Christian who serves the church like all faithful Christians do.
And Junius is outstanding among the apostles, capital A, apostles of Christ, who were men exclusively.
That means that they viewed her as having a reputation of being an outstanding Christian.
She's not among them.
And church planters are those who are sent out, not by Christ, not commissioned by Christ himself, eye and ear witnesses of the resurrected Lord, but they are lowercase a apostles of the church.
A pre existing church sends them out to plant a new church.
And because that's a lowercase a apostle of the church and not a capital A apostle of Christ, another helpful term to not muddy the waters so that we're saying apostle here and apostle there is just call him a freaking church planter and stop saying apostle.
Right?
So just wanted to get those things clear.
I think that's helpful to not get cute.
Some people are confused, but my final point some people are confused.
These four are not.
Right, exactly.
Go ahead.
We just do this funny business with director, too.
Have you noticed that?
Not we, our church, the other churches.
So instead of what they would call, like, board of directors.
I did that back in my Acts 29 days.
Board of directors.
To my shame.
Right.
Well, she's not an elder.
She's just on the board of directors.
Right.
As if that's somehow magically different.
Right.
Yeah.
But tell us a little bit.
So he mentioned some historical examples.
There's this idea of church's mother, Paul says in Galatians.
I don't know.
It's a little embarrassing that he said he was surprised, shocked to go back to the historical record and find examples of women being mentioned in church history.
I have taken one introduction to church history class.
Beautiful.
One.
And I know that women are mentioned all over church history as faithful people.
Precious servants of the Lord.
I know that women were martyred for their faith and testified solidly and faithfully all the way through to their death.
I know that there are women who were incredible servants of the church.
I even know the verse that he mentions later on in Acts 16, where Paul mentions it's Acts 16 13.
He says, Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, also his mother, who has been a mother.
And we could stop there, but we could finish the verse too, which says, Who has been a mother to me as well.
So, even Paul was ministered to by the mother of Rufus in a special, nurturing, motherly way.
So, for him to look back at church history and say, I'm shocked all of a sudden to find that there were women mentioned throughout church history as important contributors to the life of the church, that is disingenuous.
Church as Mother00:14:31
You cannot be the president of a reformed seminary and say, I had no idea.
This is all brand new information to me.
You're telling me this for the first time.
Wow, I didn't know that.
But the other thing that they do is they.
Play fast and loose with the word which we were just talking about definitions ministry, which ministry is another word that just means service.
And so, to say that women's ministry in the history of the church has been valuable and important, of course, of course, no doubt, like, obviously, all we're saying is a woman's service to the church is valuable and important.
Well, yes, they're part of the church, the body needs all of its parts, right?
Like, it needs everything, it needs every gift, it needs all of the ways that God.
Gifted spiritually, people, men and women, it needs all of those contributions.
There's an interesting quote from Spurgeon here, and here he's talking about the church as mother, which I think, I don't know how far we'll go down that road, but he says, The church is a mother because it is her privilege to bring forth into the world the spiritual children of the Lord Jesus Christ, who, remember, Christ is the head of the church.
But he's the bridegroom, the husband, and the church is the bride.
Which, by the way, if we were to be consistent with how they apply analogies, we all need to identify as brides too.
Like, it's just silly.
There's no head of the church and there's no mothers.
Anyway, the church is left in the world still that she may bring out the rest of God's elect that are all hidden in the caverns and strongholds of sin.
He who hath taken the church to be his spouse and his bride, that is Christ, has chosen to bring men to himself by means.
And thus it is through God's using the church, her ministers, her children, her works, her sufferings, her prayers.
Through making these the means of the increase of his spiritual kingdom.
I look at that last list.
God uses the church, her children, her works, her sufferings, and her prayers.
And he uses those things, works, sufferings, and prayers, also ministers, to bring the increase of his spiritual kingdom.
Well, of course, women are praying.
Of course, they're doing spiritual works.
Of course, they are suffering for the gospel and for their faith, right?
The role, the ministry of women is vital.
Of course, no one is saying that.
But when they say that the use of ministry in history means that we need positioned women that are given an office, who have a salary and a delegated authority, that is, I mean, that's not even just like you said, being wrong about a definition.
They're doing a bait and switch there.
It's deceitful.
Yeah.
I'm going to read this is from Zachary Garris, Honor Thy Fathers, put out by New Christendom Press.
Really great book.
But Calvin says this in a sermon on 1 Timothy 6.
He says, If a woman were to spend all day long in church, Praying and chanting, her style of life would not be as agreeable to God as if she were a wife who patiently performed her duties, feeding her children, caring for them, guiding them, and doing all she could to teach and to train them.
So, in our Reformed Protestant history, Wilkins' hardest hit right there.
Hardest hit.
Calvin's like all day long praying, chanting.
We could fill in there some of the things they're talking about discipleship teaching.
It's like none of that would be as agreeable to God as if she did her role in the home.
Notice Calvin doesn't even say like discipling or teaching Sunday school.
That would be unthinkable.
That would literally be unthinkable.
Not just for Calvin, but everyone in that time period.
Exactly.
So, like he's saying, even if a woman was in the church, the context of the church, all the time doing things that a woman actually can do, like praying and chanting, or maybe fasting.
Like I think of the prophetess who is waiting in the temple for Jesus to be born, Anna, and spends her whole life waiting for this messianic promise to finally be fulfilled and is fasting and praying for years and years and years.
That's actually something that a woman can do.
And did that please the Lord?
Yes.
She was specifically called to it.
It is not normative for women.
It is not normative.
Not only is it very unique for individuals, but it was also unique to that time, namely the time in history when the Christ was being birthed into the world.
We're not in that time.
That time has come, it's gone.
Spoiler alert, if you haven't read the Bible, that happened like 2,000 years ago.
And so we're not in that time.
So what Calvin is saying is that even if a woman was doing the things that are available and permissible by God and Holy Scripture to do within the context of the church, Even that would be less pleasing to the Lord than her spending the vast majority of her time at home with her children.
And how do we know that?
The Bible, that's what Titus 2 is so clear.
When Titus 2 explains, so it's like, but we need, what about older women discipling younger women?
Gosh, that one frustrates me a lot.
I'm not going to reach for it.
I want to reach for the King Jimmy back there, but let me just pull this up.
So, this is Titus chapter 2.
I've got it.
I can get it for you on King James right here.
Well, it's not even so much.
The translation is great.
I love the King James, but it's more so to have that leather bound Bible.
It's a good look, a lot better than an iPad.
Here we go.
So, to love, but speak thou the things which become sound doctrine, that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Aged women, here we go.
This is verse 3, Titus 2, verse 3.
The aged women, older women, likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of the good things, that they may teach the young women.
Now, here's the deal.
Everybody wants to say within the complementarian reform crowd, they want to say, okay, yeah, so women can't teach men, we get that, and a woman can't be an elder and she can't preach on the Lord's day.
But who's going to teach the younger women?
That's what, you know, like, I mean, surely, you know, that can't happen in the context of the Lord's Day in the public preaching of the Word of God from biblically qualified men.
Obviously, it can.
That's exactly how it happens.
You know, or, you know, who can teach women also their husbands at home?
If you have any questions, so sit next to your husband in the pew and listen to biblically qualified men preach the word of God week in and week out.
And if you have any questions, ask your husbands at home so that they can disciple you.
If your husband can't answer the question, then by way of implication, what the text is saying, well, now it's no longer just your question, it becomes his question.
And so now you're going with him, or he may just go on your behalf.
And that should be totally appropriate and totally fine because the heart of a godly woman trusts.
Her husband and she is her head.
So now he's going with what has now become because he didn't have the answer, but he cares for his wife.
Now it's his question.
He goes to the elders and asks that question.
The question gets answered.
He comes back to his wife, answers that question.
And the point is, she is getting, there's nothing that he is learning about the Lord and the things of God and sound doctrine that is unavailable to her.
Right.
Because they're both learning in the context of the church.
Not all these sub midweek subsets of the church, all these little Factions and little midweek ministries.
That's a misnomer.
You don't find that.
That's just not how it works.
It's the public preaching of the word of God by biblically qualified men.
However, throughout the week, there is one description that we have in scripture of women training women.
But with this, it says that they may teach the young women.
And we want to say, so this means Jen Wilkin doing a women's conference with 500 people.
No, that they may teach the young women.
To what the curriculum is there, it's not just teach young women, period, in a general sense, uh, teaching them theology proper, teaching you know, like doctrine of God, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and teaching them, you know, the doctrines of grace.
And like, no, no, where are they going to learn about theology proper and doctrine of God and the doctrines of grace?
And where are they going to learn these things with their husbands from their pastors, the same place that the men are learning?
That's where they're going to learn.
And if and if they're not catching something that their husband's catching, they ask their husband, if he didn't catch it either, they ask the male.
Pastors, that's where they learn.
So, what are the things that older women are teaching younger women?
It's not theology in the abstract, it's not theology proper, it's not how to do expositional studies.
That's not it.
It's teaching them the things, the only things, vitally important things, but the only things that men are not able to teach them.
And what are those things that they may teach the young women?
This is Titus 2:4.
Teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet.
Chaste, keepers at home, go home, Bethmore, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, obedient, it's a great word, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
And the last thing I want to say is this the complementarian gospel coalition joke of a Reformed Church crowd, what they often will outright say, or at least at minimum imply,
is that one of the reasons that they're trying to be so careful and so affirming towards women and their rhetoric and their language and And making sure that we're not taking anything away from women that the scripture doesn't clearly command to take away is what they'll say all the time is because we don't want the church to be reviled, to be reviled as misogynists, to be reviled as hating women.
That's right.
That's the opposite of what Holy scripture says.
That's right.
What Paul says is older women, the only thing they should be teaching women at all is how to obey their husbands, how to stay at home, keep the home, how to not be drunkards.
How to be lovers of children and not feminists that hate children.
And you do all that so that the Word of God would not be reviled.
He doesn't say that we should, older women should be doing women's conferences, teaching expositionally through the book of Ephesians so the Word of God is not reviled.
No, he says older women, if they teach anything at all, it's not on the Lord's Day, it's not on the conference circuit, it's Monday through Saturday with younger women, and it's teaching them to stay home, obey their husbands, love their children, and that that's what would keep the Word of God from being reviled.
I want to add one thing there.
Because I don't disagree with a single word you said, but some people will hear that and they'll say, well, there's no spiritual component then to a woman's discipleship.
Well, no, of course.
When an older woman is commanded to teach a younger woman to be chaste, obviously it's in fear of the Lord.
Right.
Right.
So obviously the doctrines that she's learning from her pastor and her husband, not the holiness of God and how he never breaks his promises and how we can trust him, like that, that works into a woman's.
Care of her household, and an older woman ought to encourage a younger woman who you know is stressed because her husband lost her job.
Don't despair, the Lord is faithful, right?
Keep doing your role as a woman, don't go out and do this or that.
Yes, like fear, yes, chapter 2, verse 15 literally says, But women will be saved through childbearing, right?
Um, if they continue with faith and hope and love and with propriety.
Um, so, so meaning what, uh, when a woman is fearful because uh, part of the curse is that their pains have been greatly increased in childbearing, um, or when she's hemorrhaging blood.
Like a woman in our church was just this last week, and we're as a church gathering around and not physically, we're giving some space, but we are spiritually gathering around and sounding the alarm, church, it's time to pray, you know, and asking the husband, is there anything we can do, and like bringing them dinner and these kind of things.
She is being encouraged by other women in our church to not just love your children, but love your children and love the Lord and be fearless in this moment.
You will be saved through childbearing if you continue with faithful.
Childbearing was a Horrifying, terrifying thing, especially for the first century and most of the world until very modern times.
Many children died in childbearing.
Many women died in childbearing.
Or also, like 1 Peter, I believe it's chapter 3, where he says that Sarah called her husband Lord, lowercase l, Lord, not the Lord, but a Lord, sire, sir, a sign of respect.
And that this is commended.
She's not made fun of.
By this, she's commended, and you likewise are her daughters.
You, if you follow her example, and it goes on, it says, and are not frightened, fearful of anything.
One of the constant commands so, not being afraid of childbearing, but rather trusting with faith that you'll be saved through childbearing.
Or in First Peter, that's First Timothy, uh, two, or in First Peter, chapter three, uh, not fear anything that is frightening.
Well, one of the things that's frightening is being called by God in Titus, chapter two, to be obedient to a fallible man who is a sinner.
In a fallen world where things go wrong.
And so, as older women are teaching women to obey their husbands and to be lovers of children when those children are at times difficult, they're teaching them to do these things and they're teaching them as they are commanded to do these things to rely upon all the promises of scripture in the gospel.
It's theology applied, it's the whole podcast.
But here's the deal theology does not apply in a generic way.
One size fits all across the board for everyone.
That's not the way theology works.
Theology is the same book, the same 66 Holy Spirit inspired books of the Bible.
That's the theology, that's the source of our doctrine.
But that theology then applies in different ways given our, in God's providence, our station in life.
And that includes our gender.
That includes our age.
Are you children?
Well, theology for you applies, all these promises in scripture apply to you to obey your parents.
Theology Is Not Generic00:09:10
Are you fathers?
Well, it's going to apply a different way for you.
Are you mothers?
It applies a different way.
Are you officers in the church?
Are you members in the church?
Are you civil magistrates in Romans 13?
Are you citizens?
At every single level, are you masters?
Are you slaves?
That's Ephesians 6.
Read Ephesians 6.
The whole thing is basically saying, okay, so up until this point, we've had five chapters and I've taught you all these principles, and now I'm going to give some very specific practical application.
And guess what?
The practical application varies given your station of life.
Fathers this way, mothers that way, parents this way, children that way, masters this way, slaves that way.
What they're trying to do in this video, and we'll see even more in the next clip, and Wes has some great things to say about it, but what they're trying to do is Steamroll and completely flatten out God's good design.
They're trying to take something that's varied, it's multi faceted, and that God calls exceedingly good and beautiful and hate it and say, What you have designed and called good and beautiful, we hate and we're going to destroy.
We're going to steamroll it in to a one size fits all, no more distinctions, no more hierarchy, no more variance, no more beauty.
It's all one.
It's the same thing that they do with race.
Well, there's just one race.
The human race, you know, and I get it.
I, you know, I was alive in 2020, also.
Yep.
Right.
I said it.
Right.
That's what you did in 2020.
You came out against BLM.
You said there's just one race, the human race.
Well, yeah, but there are different nations.
And you're Michael.
I want to plug him for a second.
Michael just finished writing an entire book, like a 400 page book on this question.
This is huge.
Right.
What is a woman?
That's an important question.
Matt Walsh, Doppelganger, you know, Ganger, you know, thank you for that documentary.
But Michael just wrote in a super important book, What is a Nation?
Right.
What is a Nation?
Because we really don't know, right?
Because Americans were so afraid of being called racist.
Like, then it's just a set of propositions or it's just an economic zone or Elon Musk, God bless him, the man of destiny.
You know, I'm rooting for him, but he's got some still, he's come a long way, but he's got some major problems.
Like, just the other day, he tweeted out and said he compared America literally to like a football team and said that you can just put on the jersey.
Still using that rhetoric that rhinos will use it like we got to stop illegal immigration and we need far more legal immigration.
And it's like, no, no, we don't.
That doesn't mean we can't ever have any immigration, but we've taken on 20 million people in the last three and a half years.
Let's take a breather.
First, millions of deportations.
Millions of deportations.
And then let's just breathe for a second.
Let's wait a moment.
And then what we're eventually going to have to do, and this is a biblical principle.
Did you know it took three generations, right?
So here's your general equity theonomy three generations to be fully assimilated into Israel and be able to worship, have full rights as a citizen and worship in the temple.
And that applied not to all the nations equally.
There were some nations that if they immigrated into Israel, they would say, I'm sorry, but you got to wait 10 generations.
Why?
Because you suck.
Your nation sucks because you hated our nation.
In the past, and that history still stands.
You were filled with hatred towards the Lord, Yahweh, and towards his people, Israel.
And so you got to wait 10 generations.
So, what would I say?
First, deport millions.
Second, let's wait decades.
I think it needs to be maybe centuries, but at least decades, at least decades.
And then we need to look and say, okay, who's Christian?
That's first.
Second is going to be, and who's then further beyond the religion?
I'm not saying that's not first, but it's not only.
See, this is the thing where even the theonomists, I love you.
I love you.
I am a general equity theonomist, but you get a little globo homo here.
You do.
You turn into rhinos, reformed in name only.
You know, you.
If you were being consistent, you would have to say, Yeah, we actually kind of hate Rush Dooney.
Rush Dooney was based.
Rush Dooney was based.
That guy, read what he says about Israel.
Read what he says about kinism.
Read what he says about marriage.
Yeah, that dude, he was further than I am.
Holocaust numbers, too.
Holocaust numbers.
That dude denied, he denied him some Holocaust, Rush Dooney.
So, like, you read Rush Dooney on the Jewish question, you read him on race and all these kinds of things.
Rush Dooney, I just want to publicly say, Admire him, appreciate him, and he is multiple clicks to my right.
Right.
To my right.
And the theonomists want to disown me, but love Rush Dooney?
I am a squishy moderate compared to RJ Rush Dooney.
So, all that being said, my point is back to assimilating to Israel three generations, some 10.
So, you're going to have to look at first religion.
Are you a Christian?
Whenever we do start to do some mitigated, reasonable immigration in the future.
And then, secondly, you're going to have to look beyond that and look at cultures, customs, history.
Not just who loves Christ.
It's not enough.
Loving Christ is not enough to earn you an inherent right to be able to be an American citizen.
No, I can't go to any nation and say, I love Jesus.
I demand dual citizenship.
No, that's stupid.
The Bible doesn't affirm that.
You've got to love America, you've got to love our history.
There's got to be some sense of like Ruth saying, your people are my people, not just your God is my God.
Notice, it's not just your God is my God.
Your people are my people.
And in that, she is disowning the Moabites, disowning her foreign gods and her fathers, and recognizing, I don't want to be a part of this.
So here's the deal.
First, you got to be a Christian.
Second, there also has to be the sense of you being able to say, I love America.
There's cultures and customs that are complementary that line up.
And then what that means is we're going to look at certain nations.
We're going to say, if you're coming from England, okay, we're going to take this number annually.
And no more.
And when you get here, you can have full citizenship rights.
You can live here, have a green card, these kinds of things.
And you can eventually vote in our elections on the third generation.
You're coming from Haiti.
We're going to take far less of you.
And for the foreseeable future, zero.
But then far less.
In fact, we're going to do reverse immigration.
You guys are going to be taking about 500,000 back.
But eventually, one day, we'll take far less of you.
And for you guys, it's going to be 10 generations.
That's your general equity theonomy.
I think that's, I think Rush Dooney would love that.
I think he's smiling from heaven, looking down right now, saying, That's my boy.
I love that.
That's a great idea.
And why?
People will say, Well, Haiti is Christian.
I got some of this feedback recently.
They'll say, Well, Haiti is Christian.
And Michael, you said this really well.
It's one island separated down the middle.
You've got the DR, the Dominican Republic, on one side, Haiti on the other.
What's the big difference?
The Dominican Republic was colonized, and it's not bad, colonized by Protestants, the Reformed tradition.
And then you have Haiti that's colonized by Catholics.
And with the Roman Catholics, Chose deliberately to do was to syncretize instead of tearing, like Josiah, all the high places down and saying, I'm sorry, the cannibalism must stop.
I'm sorry, the voodoo has to stop.
I'm sorry, the animal sacrifices, all these things.
No, instead, they synchronized.
The Roman Catholics, common Roman Catholic L, they syncretized and said, you can keep your voodoo, but it needs to be syncretized within Christianity.
And Christ needs to have a place in your pantheon of your weird cat eating and sadly people eating voodoo garbage religion.
And so, what do you get a couple hundred years later?
Dominican Republic, it's not first world, but it's developing world.
Yeah.
And it's light years better than Haiti.
And then you've got Haiti on the other side.
So when people say, oh, Joel, you know, well, I thought you were Theonymous and they're 93% Christian.
Okay, let's just be accurate about that.
93% Christian.
What does that mean?
Roman Catholic Christian.
What kind of Roman Catholic?
Roman Catholic synchronized with voodoo Christian.
Right.
Okay.
So all this being said, the point is gender matters, economics matter, master slave matters, age matters.
Are you a father?
Are you a mother?
Are you a child?
And And race and nationality and countries, all this matters.
And God doesn't make it go away.
The gospel doesn't make it go away.
You have to talk about it.
You need to talk about it in loving ways, in biblical ways, but it is a thing.
And anybody who tries to make it go away is waging war against nature itself.
And by waging war against nature, they're ultimately waging war against God.
And they may be a Christian.
Race and Nationality Matter00:03:33
They may even be reformed.
They may even be that post mail.
They may even be theonomic.
But they're squishy.
They're squishy.
And it may not be intentional, but they've lost the thread.
They've lost the thread.
And people ask, well, why are you talking to Stephen Wolfe?
And why are you like, read Andrew Sandlin and then read Stephen Wolfe.
There's your answer.
If theonomy is perfectly compatible with Liz Chaining, then I guess I'm not a theonomist anymore.
And so far, from what I'm seeing from guys like Andrew Sandlin, it is.
Theonomy just means basically, Your ship all the jobs overseas, pennies on the dollar, so the GDP can keep going up.
My daughter can be a police officer, and we're good to go.
That was not Rush Dooney's Theonomy.
Okay.
That's my spirit.
Well, the next set of clips really highlights it.
Let's hit our first commercial break, then we'll come back and show some more.
All right.
That's it, guys.
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All right, Joel asked me to add one addendum onto the Unscheduled rabbit trail.
Yeah.
Exclusive Coffee Deal00:02:33
Those are always the best.
We're talking about race and nations.
Come on, it's Wednesday.
You know, at some point we got to.
So there's a perceived problem if you call yourself a genuine general equity theonomist.
And that is that a lot of theonomists have looked at the Old Testament and they've looked at Israel's basically immigration laws.
Right.
And it was in pretty much no uncertain terms commanded that if a sojourner wanted to come to Israel, Israel was required to import them.
Assimilate them.
And yes, everything Joel said about assimilation, certain time periods, that's all true.
But they were not given an option to say no, really.
I mean, they were required to do that.
Welcome the sojourner, the stranger, the foreigner, without exception.
Now, here is one thing that's not talked about very often.
And that is in the Old Covenant, the only place, and you see this when Jesus talks to the Samaritan woman in John 4, she is really perturbed that the place to go and worship God, the Lord, Is in Jerusalem.
And she said, We have our own mountain, but you guys keep saying it's your mountain only.
Why should we have to go all the way down there to worship?
Well, the fact is, God set it up so that if you wanted to truly participate in the full worship of God with the temple sacrifices, which was the way to atone for sin in the Old Testament, to truly worship God in the proper way that God had prescribed, you had to go to Israel.
And so, in a sense, the sojourner who's coming and moving to Israel.
It doesn't quite say it, and it's probably not everyone.
There were probably some people who moved there for economic opportunity, things like that.
But they were coming in large part because they were wanting to worship the true God.
Right?
They were converting.
Their coming was converting.
Their coming was converting.
Because conversion does not require coming any longer.
Correct.
And that's the point.
So in the new covenant, there is not one way, one place to worship God.
There's one way to worship God.
Jesus says this to the woman He said, A time is coming when you won't worship on this mountain or that mountain.
That's right.
But God is this mountain or the temple.
Yes, or the temple.
He's worshiped in spirit and truth.
And so the Great Commission, the new covenant, It reverses the kind of immigration pattern in the Old Testament, where now the people of God send missionaries and they go and they make disciples of all nations so that in every nation there is the knowledge of God and true worship of God.
And it's not required anymore that people come to the nation of Israel in order to convert and worship the true God, but rather the church is going to take the gospel to the nations and they are going to become Christian nations.
One Way to Worship God00:15:41
Right.
Yeah.
Amen.
Well said.
Real quick subscribe.
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I know you hate me.
You hate this ministry and you're missing out on so many opportunities to hate watch with regular content you're missing.
Yeah, it's like you have to wait a week after the fact to hate watch a 12 second clip on Right Wing Watch where you could have been hate watching for a solid, consistent two hours a week before.
So it only happens.
Exactly.
While it actually happens.
Exactly.
So you're only hurting yourself.
You have no one to blame but yourself.
So go ahead and subscribe to our channel.
And then the other thing that we wanted to say was on November 5th.
Tuesday.
Something's going on?
Yeah.
It's, you know, I don't know if we'll actually get results.
Yeah, right.
It's going to take them a little while to get the bump, you know, and even the 2 a.m. fix.
That 2 a.m. fix.
Bump it.
Which it might be like a two week later fix this year.
Who knows?
But, anyways, but we're going to try.
Hopefully, we get results.
Hopefully, you know, everything's not completely rigged.
It'll be rigged, but hopefully, it's too big to rig.
So we'll see.
But we're going to be doing a live commentary.
We're going to just be, you know, we'll probably invite on some guests.
I don't know.
I'll, William Wolf would come on for sure.
I'm trying to think.
We could get a lot of guys.
Andrew and CJ would come on.
Who else could we get?
Harris.
Harris might be doing it himself.
But if he's not, he would come on.
So, anyways, but we're going to do a live show during the election, election night.
So that's going to be Tuesday, November 5th.
It'll be like 8 p.m. or so Eastern.
So sit here.
Set your calendar, get ready, join us.
Yeah, grab a beverage for sure.
It'll be a rough one.
It's going to be a rough one.
All right, we're going to play this section of clips.
I want you to hold in mind what Joel was just talking about.
When we make discipleship very abstract, very universal, very androgynous, hold that in your mind, what we just talked about, and let's watch this next section of clips.
Here's a practical example that I don't really know how to deal with or just how I should handle it.
I've been an elder for a long time in a large church, and I would say often about two thirds of the women, large numbers of new members who are coming in are young, single women.
What does it look like for me to shepherd them?
What does that look like?
I know it's probably different from how I would be shepherding a 23 year old man in some ways.
By necessity, I think it would have to be different in some ways.
Corey and I would like to know how.
Well, I don't really know.
Are you going on campouts with the 23 year old?
Well, I mean, I would be on a men's retreat and I would get a chance on a men's retreat to have focused time that I wouldn't have.
I don't have a lot of focused time in general.
With your average 23 year old male.
But I would have something like that in a men's ministry context where I could do that.
So that's why I'm wondering what does it look like otherwise to do that?
Actually, that's one of the key things I think is missing in the whole conversation is that when, lots of times when pastors think about discipling a woman in their church and they're like, I don't know if I should do that, part of the reason they make that is because they assume that the topic has to be about womanhood or about female stuff or about things like that.
And this is one of the things that I don't get that paradigm problem.
Why wouldn't you just talk to them about Jesus and the gospel and the word and biblical theology and sound doctrine and Basic discipleship categories.
So it seems like there's a sense in which when a pastor pastors a male, he thinks in theological categories.
When he moves over to pastoring a female, he thinks, oh, now it's relational categories, and I'm not equipped for that.
So I just do the males and I don't do the women.
I think that's itself the problem, is that why would we assume that women don't need those same categories?
And I think that's exactly maybe what you were describing, is that you got the benefit of someone who just wanted to talk to you about the gospel, which is like, wow, how about that?
I mean, that seems like an obvious thing.
I think, Mike, it's also because we're professors.
Meaning that there are certain people gravitate toward us.
And I think if the local church can't reclaim the beauty of male female interaction along appropriate lines, what hope does the culture have?
And we also cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that two men meeting alone can be every bit as inappropriate as a man and a woman meeting alone.
We should say that.
I don't think women should have to carry this burden around all the time that we're a particular risk category when it comes to relationship forming.
That's a good clip right there.
And there are all sorts of other ways where it can go wrong, not just with an older man with a younger woman, all sorts of different ways.
People are crazy.
Well, because they're people, not because they're men and women.
Because they're people.
He nailed it.
He said, that's a good clip right there.
And it is.
It's a fantastic clip for us to torch to the glory of God and out of love for both men and women.
Jen Wilkins said, you know, basically she said something along the lines of like, they act as though women are just a risk category.
A risk category.
Yes.
Did we not just watch Steve Lawson fall?
Yes.
The timing of this is not just foolish, it's disgusting.
Yeah.
It is brazen.
It is audacious.
The timing of this, we've seen an epidemic of ministers failing and falling.
And abuses, I would say, too, not in Steve Lawson's case, but genuine like criminal abuse.
A lot of this year has come out.
Yes, this very year.
And with Steve Lawson within our camp, the broader reformed camp, these people, these four people know Steve Lawson.
That just happened like 15 minutes ago.
And then Jen Wilkin has the audacity to talk about women being a risk category.
Yes, yes, you are.
You are a risk category.
We love you.
But no, notice the whole thing that they're talking about in that string of clips right there is they're not talking about women getting to belong in the church on the Lord's day or being members in the church or co heirs in grace or all these kinds of things.
Of course, those things are being loved by their husbands as Christ loved the church.
Yes, and amen, a thousand times.
Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church, be willing to give themselves up for their life up.
For their wives, just as Christ did for the church.
All these things are a no brainer.
Nobody is denying that.
But that's not what they're asking for.
They're asking for, they're basically, they didn't say it, they didn't outright say it, but they're basically doing the same thing that blue haired lesbian feminist progressives that don't even claim the name of Christ do when they mock, relentlessly mock the Billy Graham rule or mocked for four years Mike Pence.
And don't mishear me.
Mike Pence needed to be mocked and still does.
So, anybody who's committed to mocking Mike Pence, you have my full support.
But he does not need to be mocked for his application of the Billy Graham rule and his discipline to never be alone in a room with a woman who's not his wife.
That is a good discipline.
Of course, it's.
And they are literally paving the way.
This whole thing that we just watched, they are paving the way for pastors to be meeting alone with young women.
Mm hmm.
And to regularly be discipling women, not from the pulpit as you disciple the whole church at large on the Lord's Day by the expositional preaching of his word, but they're begging the question.
They are implying and almost explicitly outright saying and even commanding or condemning, if you even thought anything otherwise, that there need to be all of these midweek touch points where an elder, I mean, they're saying that a pastor basically should be.
Treating a young 23 year old woman and the way that he engages her and disciples her, and they mean by discipleship outside of the Lord's Day, midweek personal discipleship, that there should be virtually zero distinction or difference in the way that he would disciple a young 23 year old man.
They were begging for more Steve Lawson.
They were saying, could we please have more sexual immorality?
And you know, when that happens, it's going to be the guy's fault.
It'll be the guy's fault.
I'll tell you whose fault it is.
It will be the guy's fault.
And Jen Wilkins.
I agree.
And even more so, perhaps the most responsible loser on the planet.
Never met him, don't even know his name, but whoever Jen Wilkins' husband is.
Yeah.
That guy.
I would not want to be him.
Her kids go to public school.
You need to hear this.
Her kids go to public school so she can LARP and pretend to be a Bible teacher.
She's a keynote speaker at next year's Gospel Coalition.
So it will be John Piper, and then he'll share the stage on that Friday or that Saturday with Jen Wilkins to lecture men and women.
Well, her kids.
Go to public school so she can do this girl boss thing.
That's their home.
That's what's happening.
I hate that.
I hate it.
And I hate it because I love women in the church.
I want them to be happy, and happiness does not come apart.
True happiness does not come apart from holiness.
And there will be no holiness that leads towards true and lasting happiness outside of obedience to the will of God.
Notice another thing that they said in the clip was exactly the opposite of what we said.
Right before it, in terms of Titus 2 and our exegesis, they said, Well, I don't know what I would talk to her about.
You know, like if a young woman comes to me as a pastor, what am I going to be pastoring her with?
What am I going to be discipling and discussing with her?
You know, like, and they mockingly listed the kinds of things that are actually listed in Titus chapter 2.
Like, I'm not, I don't know how to bake.
You know, I'm not going to talk to her about baking or homemaking or these kinds of things.
And then they give like this sarcastic.
Demeaning answer as well.
Come on, Pastor Duh, talk to her about the gospel.
Talk to her.
It doesn't need to be women specific.
Just talk to her about the gospel and talk to her about just theology.
No, no, no, no.
The pastor does talk to her about those things on the Lord's day, weekly.
Every single week on the Lord's day, when her butt is not in his office or in the backseat of his car, but when her butt is next to her husband's butt on a pew and he's preaching the word of God from a pulpit with a good, safe six foot distance.
As Fauci would, you know, like, you know, and preferably 60 feet.
The higher the pulpit, the more pleasing to the Lord.
There's all, you know, this transcendent, it's not the man, but it's the word of the Lord coming down from on high.
I also like to think that these high elevated pulpits from back in the day would, for just to get pastors just a little further away from the women.
I love it.
It pleases the Lord.
It's a beautiful strategy.
Bring that back.
Make pulpits taller again.
You know, make them taller again.
But the point is, that's when the pastor is shepherding her.
Right.
And he's also shepherding her when he, outside of the Lord's day, when he spends time.
With men, older men with younger men, because that covers her husband.
Well, I'm not married.
Yeah, that's probably because you've been following the gospel coalition the last 10 years.
Yeah.
The gospel coalition bears a large responsibility for that.
So, first, stop being a feminist, desire to work with children in your home, to be a keeper at home, and to be obedient, which ties to uses that word, to your husband.
And let's get you married.
And then here's the other thing in the meantime, until you are married, he is shepherding you on the Lord's day.
You're a member of the church, you're at church.
He's also shepherding you.
By shepherding your husband.
If you're not married, he's shepherding your father.
If your father has passed on, he's shepherding your brother or your uncle.
Or it's like, why?
I don't have an uncle in the church.
I'm a single woman.
No member of my male member of my family is in the church.
Great.
Are there other women in the church?
Older women?
Uh huh.
Well, he's preaching to them and their husbands, and then outside of the Lord's day, spending time with their husbands who disciple their wives, and then those older women now disciple you.
So, no matter how you slice it, that's how the minister of the gospel, that's how the pastor is ministering to women in the church.
He is not ministering to 23 year old women in the church by teaching them the five points of Calvinism in the church office.
Over coffee.
No, no, that we literally just watched 15 minutes ago Stephen Lawson fall.
Are you kidding me, Jim Wilkin?
The timing of this is, at best, this is the most charitable I can be.
At best, it is stupid and a joke.
At worst, it is sinister.
And you are intentionally trying to get more men to disqualify themselves from ministry so that you can eventually make your real case.
My prediction, your real case, which is men shouldn't really be in ministry at all, and we'll take it from here.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, but tell us how you really feel, Joel.
That's how I feel.
No, that's good.
You were going to mention egalitarianism, hierarchy.
It's kind of a sum up thought, but what this does, if you take these arguments, man, you just run with them, you take them all the way, what you end up with, like you said, is a flattening of nature, and you make men and women these interchangeable machine pieces.
You have men that happen to, by happenstance, be able to sire children.
And for some reason, could have gone either way.
God decided they can teach as well.
So you've got men that can sire children and they can preach.
That's it.
That's where the differences end.
Women are able to bear children.
They're not able to for three hours on Sunday morning.
For some reason, that's the space where they're not allowed to teach.
And those are the only differences between them.
The man wants to work.
The woman wants to work.
No problem.
He's a stay at home dad.
She's a stay at home mom.
They're interchangeable pieces.
Marxist philosophers recognized, because Marxism is about distribution.
About equality, equality, equality.
All across the board, everyone is equal.
There's no hierarchy.
Marxist philosophers realized and they said this the final stage of Marxism will be a big, giant, polyamorous grouping.
Because when you get to the family, there's things that nature has built in that the only way to possibly overcome them is to just level everything.
Nobody sticks out.
Because if you still have marriage, man and a woman, well, some women are more attractive than others.
Some men, well, not in Marxism, but even there's natural qualities.
That man is stronger, that man is better looking.
So, if you're going to flatten everything, you have to break apart the family.
You have to take men and women, you have to just make them these pieces and economic machines.
And it destroys, like you were saying, Joel, the nature that God made.
God made men and women to complement each other.
The man, not complementarian, patriarchal, but the man, like, why is he able to preach?
Because God said so.
Uh huh.
And his voice is deep.
He has a chest.
He conveys authority and he can be heard to a wider, broader degree.
Why do women bear children?
Because they have breasts that can feed them.
God didn't just assign these arbitrary roles and then these roles we abide by them, but everything else is interchangeable.
Chest preaching and breastfeeding.
Don't interchange them.
Don't mix them up.
It is not chest feeding and breast preaching.
It is chest preaching and breastfeeding.
You just get man made horrors if you try to just.
Chest Feeding vs Breast Preaching00:04:29
Well, no, you do.
When you mix up nature, that's what you get.
That's horror.
Like you, like men that are trying to do, like take children and pretend that they're the mother to them.
Horrific.
Terrible.
That's what you are doing spiritually when you pretend that you can put a woman up and have her teach and preach and instruct and convey and disciple them.
That's what you're doing.
So stop trying to take God's order, the way He made men and women, not just a sign, but made top to bottom, front to back, all the way.
Stop trying to level those things out because what you get then is androgyny.
Jen Wilkin is a masculine woman.
In her voice, she tries to convey with a vocal fry a level of gravitas.
That she naturally doesn't have because she's a woman.
Colin Hansen is an effeminate man who is overweight, lispy.
Like you take men, you've got to make them more feminine.
You take women, you've got to make them more masculine to meet it.
And you have a big, ugly, amorphous blob of interchangeable pieces for the GDP.
I don't want to see that.
That's ugly.
Get back to the way God ordered the church with fathers to lead it, with men and women serving in it, most notably in the family, serving one another.
And wouldn't you be surprised?
There's actually a pretty beautiful design.
Yep, amen.
These and getting to women and their role in ministry, um, these uh tweets were fire from uh the so, yeah, it was so good to see.
Like, right when this dropped, uh, both Brian and Lexi in one accord, uh, were like, Hey, we need to uh, we need to come out and crush Chin Walker.
So, let's show exactly what her advice looks like on the ground, right?
So, in 2016, Lexi said, So, this is Lexi Sovay, yep, Lexi Sovay.
Uh, this is wife of Brian Sovay, New Christian Press.
I don't know why Brian's letting her tweet.
Honestly, I mean, Brian, if you can hear my voice, if you can hear my voice, give me a call.
Get out of the wall and pout.
Give me, yeah, come on, man.
I thought you were patriarch.
I'm just, yeah, just, all right.
So, this is what Lexi said for anyone listening.
Jen Wilkin once told me, she said this was in 2016, that I needed to be doing everything I could to have my children cared for by someone else so that I could be working in ministry at church.
And Lexi followed it up because she's a godly woman.
Praise the Lord, stirring pots of oatmeal and washing endless loads of socks actually counts as a real ministry for female kind.
That's literally, there's literally nothing else I'd rather be doing.
And then find you a woman who finds you a Lexi.
Like Lexi.
And then Brian said this following it up.
He said, She, that is Jen Wilkin, told me I needed Lexi and other women in our elders' meetings if we wanted the church to be truly healthy.
So Jen Wilkin told Brian.
And here's the thing during that same time, so Brian was in, it's funny because that's part of the reason why we're good friends.
So he was, you know, Calvary Chapel when I was Vineyard.
And then he was.
Uh, Sojourner when I was Acts 29, they were kind of like sister networks, and Vineyard came out of you know Calvary Chapel, so it's like we're you know, and then you know, and then we both went, uh, particular Baptist, and then like really covenantal, uh, Pascal, uh, Donald, you know, um, very, very particular Baptist, and then he went to Westminster, some of us stayed at the Baptist part, and some of us stayed.
He thinks that I'll you know that I'll come out from us because they were not of it, so but, anyways, so my point is, um, this would be during the time when he was like Sojourners and I was Acts 29, and I got the same counsel not from Jim Wilkin.
Directly, but I remember being told by guys in Acts 29 on multiple occasions in their conferences and from pastoral cohorts and things like that that we needed to have within our elders' meeting.
If we had a weekly elders' meeting, then we should do a monthly elders' meeting that involved the wives.
And not meaning that the elders and wives came and we just had a relation, like we're just going to share a dinner together.
But no, we needed to do an elders' meeting in terms of content and substance and the things that we're strategizing and ruling.
But the wives needed to join us because.
Specifically, and this is what was said, so that we could get a feminine perspective.
But the thing is that the Bible bans the feminine perspective from ruling the affairs of the church for a reason.
The Bible says that men and only qualified men should serve as elders of the church because you don't need a feminine perspective.
The feminine perspective is what lends towards bad churches.
You need less feminine perspective when it comes to ruling and guiding and leading.
Feminine Perspective in Ruling00:02:17
You do not need feminine perspective.
You need feminine perspective in homes with nurturing.
And building and warming and growing.
You do not need feminine perspective when it comes to war in the civil magistrate, justice, executing justice, legislating, politics.
You don't need women's feminine perspective.
And in the church, you don't need a woman's feminine perspective when it comes to the role of an elder.
You don't.
And the Bible strictly prohibits that.
It's, again, you've said it, we've said it in the past, but you've said it today, Wes.
But men and women are different.
The distinction goes all the way down.
It's not even just the physical distinctions, broader shoulders for men and breasts to nurture children for women.
It's not just that.
It's not just, okay, so I guess we shouldn't have women in combat, you know, or maybe, you know, the Secret Service agents, you know, being overweight women was a bad idea, you know.
Maybe that's why Trump got shot in the head.
And yes, an ear is a portion of the head.
You know, maybe all, you know, maybe we should stop doing that.
That's cute.
Like, you see, like conservatives coming out and they're finally willing to say that.
We were saying that like, you know, seven years ago.
No, we got to say more than that.
It's far more than that.
The difference is not just their physical aptitude for war and for fighting and for stamina and distance and running and strength.
It's not just that.
Why is it, I've said it before, I'll say it again, even when it comes to just strategic thinking, why is it that it's not just like, well, you know, the fastest.
Female swimmer can't beat the top 100 fastest male swimmers, or the fastest female runner can't beat the top 100 fastest male runners.
How come the best female chess player that doesn't require physical strength at all?
How come the best female chess player can't beat the top 100 chess players?
Why is there still a distinction?
Now we've moved away from physical feats of strength and we still find a distinction because we're different all the way down.
All the way down, mentally different.
And that doesn't mean that men are smarter across the board on everything.
Why Gender Distinctions Exist00:02:23
I'm not saying that.
There are instincts that my wife has, motherly instincts that I do not.
And she is often right.
And if I did not listen, if she did not have the ear of her husband, I do listen to my wife.
I hear her, I at the end of the day make the decision, but I take her counsel that she offers respectfully and humbly, always into account, always.
And she has instincts and thoughts and ideas.
That I don't have that are great.
Sometimes they're bad, but sometimes they're really good.
But in other arenas, in the civil polis and in the ecclesiastical realm, and these things, men are not just physically stronger, but they are psychologically, mentally, spiritually, at every single level, they are superior for those realms.
Right.
Because that's God's design.
God is not capricious.
Why do I defend this?
Because the good of a natural order.
Where everyone is healthier, everyone is happier, because it's for the good of men, the good of women, the good of children, but also it's a defense of God.
I make this point again and again.
We make this point because we love God.
And I'm sick of what things like this with the Gospel Coalition, what they're actually doing is a subtle, a constant, subtle, and often not so subtle indictment and accusation, a slander levied to God, not just to men, not just to women, but to God Himself.
They are condemning God as arbitrary, random, capricious, cruel.
They're basically saying this is basically the Gospel Coalition's position.
Of men and women in a nutshell.
The women are, Jen Wilkins is singing, anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do anything better than you, but I won't.
Well, actually, I will 99% of it, but I won't on a couple things, not because I can't, not because I'm designed differently.
I could, not only could I do it, I could do it better than you, better than you, but I won't because I'm a soft, narrow, narrow, narrow complimentary.
And when you hold that position, what you're essentially saying is that God designed, in God's design, He made Jen Wilkin to be extraordinarily gifted to do something like Eric Little, you know.
Condemning God as Arbitrary00:03:17
Why do you run?
Well, God made me and He made me fast.
And when I run, I feel His pleasure.
Good line.
I like it.
For Wilkin, this would be her view God made me and He made me theologically astute and, in terms of oration, articulate and dynamic and inspiring.
And God did that intentionally in his design, and he did it for the sole purpose by design of making me into this person and then intentionally withholding any avenue or opportunity for those gifts just to crush me, just to disappoint me, just to be capricious.
Or, that's ultimately the view you have to adopt.
Or, here's the other view you're not a good preacher, you never were.
It's always been a joke.
That's the actually loving, charitable view.
For Jen Wilkin, for her husband, for her pastors, and certainly as a defense of God.
God did not make you a great preacher and not allow you to do it.
He made you a great woman, which you've forsaken and you've never been a good preacher.
It's not just that you're not allowed to preach, you can't preach.
You can't.
Let's get to our second set of commercials.
I would say throw some comments in.
I see one already, maybe we can hit on it.
So if you have any comments, leave them in the chat and we'll get to them and we'll see you in a minute.
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Leading Your Home Amid Disagreement00:15:14
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Welcome back to the third segment.
We've got some questions already in the chat, so we'll jump right into them.
So, this is type in questions if you got one.
So, we'll go with the one we got first, timeline wise.
This is from Rose, kind of off topic, kind of is on topic.
What is your opinion on a Christian woman marrying an atheist man or agnostic man?
And it would be no.
The word of God says no.
2 Corinthians 6, Paul talks about the joining of believers with prostitutes.
So, he said, What fellowship is Christ with Belial?
And in 2 Corinthians 6 14, he says this.
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness, and what communion hath light with darkness?
Now, some will take that and they'll say, well, a Christian should never even do business with an unbeliever.
There is maybe even some validity there, but if there's some validity there, how much more so is the relationship of man and woman, of husband and wife, the closest relationship possible?
Scripture would categorically say, no, if faced with the choice to marry an atheist or an agnostic, a Christian woman should not.
Should a Christian man marry an atheist woman?
If you are already in that relationship, though, God does say through Paul that you should stay in it as long as possible for the sake of your children.
If your spouse will have you.
If your spouse will have you.
If they leave, you are not required to follow them to the ends of the earth, to beg outside their door.
But if they'll have you, you are to stay in it.
But insofar as you are already a Christian and you're faced with the opportunity, the proposition for marriage from an atheist, an agnostic, even a shallow believer.
If you are a mature believer and it's someone who you believe is a believer, but they're young and they're immature and they have much growing.
Even that pairing could cause some real difficult dynamics, especially when it's the woman that knows much more of the faith than the man.
So, scripture categorically says, No, you are not allowed to, not you, I don't know if you were considering it, but a Christian woman is not allowed to marry an atheist or agnostic.
And if a Christian woman already is married to an atheist, and vice versa, a Christian man married to an atheist, agnostic, it's beyond agnostic and atheist, it's just non Christian.
So, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever.
As long as it's not a Christian, if a man, a Christian man, is married to a non Christian woman, then the Bible is clear that he should seek to remain with her and to strive to be at peace, assuming that she's willing to be at peace and remain with him.
But if she refuses to remain with him, if his faith ultimately ends up driving her away because she hates Christ and doesn't convert and therefore grows to eventually begin to despise and hate her husband, who now loves Christ, if that eventually drives her away, Then the scripture does say, again, 1 Corinthians 6 and 7, that there is actually a permissibility for him to allow her to go.
And vice versa, if she's the Christian and her unbelieving husband.
But if the unbelieving spouse chooses to remain in the marriage, then the believing spouse, the Christian spouse, is called to remain in that marriage, to do the work faithfully as an evangelist with their unbelieving spouse, and to simply continue the marriage in a peaceable manner.
But for those who are single and not already married, not married yet, You have no right given by God to seek a spouse from among unbelievers of any kind.
And this is really something to consider seriously because, young women, if you come under the headship of a man who is not a Christian, biblically speaking, he still has the authority of husband over you.
And so, obviously, you cannot disobey the Lord, but he is not going to be shepherding you spiritually, he's not going to be washing you with the word, he's not going to be leading your family.
Loving you sacrificially.
Loving you sacrificially.
Young men also.
If you marry a woman who's not a Christian and then you try and do family worship, she's kicking against the goads.
She's resenting the fact that your children are memorizing scripture, catechisms, or whatever it is.
It is really, I mean, there are many, many reasons, but just that one practical issue, it is not a good idea.
Like, do not even consider it.
It'll bring a lot of sorrow.
Yeah.
All right.
Grady Kelm, this is a question from X. How do you deal with relationships that have Egalitarian influences on their side.
And I would assume this is talking mostly in laws.
So probably a husband or friends or maybe her mom would pastor or something like that.
That's a good question.
I would say with in laws and family relationships, ones that you'll have, like if you marry a woman, you are bound to her family for the rest of your lives together.
Like that, your father in law will be your father in law, even if you have a falling out.
And so when you have a relationship that's going to last because it's family or it's Someone that you've become family by marriage.
Charity and overlooking offenses is, I think, the name of the game, often for the sake of the relationship.
Now, that doesn't mean compromises on your theology, compromises that affect your children.
But insofar as possible, you're going to have 40, 50, 60 years with your in laws.
And there comes a point in time to say, you know, mom, dad, father in law, mother in law, I respect you, but this is a line.
Or we need to be clear we won't be coming to this church that you guys attend that has this woman pastor.
But insofar as it's possible, To live peaceably, to not make a big deal about it.
I was just back this summer with my in laws, and they love them some Israel.
Great family, wonderful family, but they love them some Israel.
And I didn't say a word about it.
I have views, and I'm very convicted of them, and I know a lot of history, but I win nothing.
Even on a topic where I believe by God's grace, I have the right view, I win nothing by arguing with my mother in law about that.
And so, insofar as it's possible, again, you're not compromising on your own views, you're not taking your children.
I would not take my children to church where there would be a woman pastor.
That wouldn't be a church.
You can't do that, but insofar as it's possible to let some of the other things go, I think there's a grace in that, and God honors that.
I think it's a more difficult situation where the woman leans egalitarian and she's getting support from her family or friends who lean that way as well.
Super hard.
Yep.
And I, you know, pray.
If you're the husband in that situation, you have to bring the word gently.
You know, washing is not beating over the head.
You have to bring the word.
You have to pray.
You have to continue to be the man that God called you to be, the husband that God called you to be.
But the reality is, unless God changes her heart, And by going to church, by presenting the word, those are the tools of the Holy Spirit.
But unless God changes her heart, there's going to be a bit of an impasse there, right?
There just is going to be until.
Now, you can have rules of the family.
You can say, we're going to do family worship.
But even then, what if she says, no, I'm not going to do that?
Like, you're not going to chain her to her chair and read her the catechism.
Right.
There is something to be said for putting distance, though, like, especially for young men as you enter marriage.
She herself may be.
Convicted and convinced alongside with you, there's something to be said like, we're going to live 45 minutes from mom and dad, still honoring them, still being veneers for grandkids.
Ray Romano.
We're not going to live down the street.
Ray Romano.
It's beautiful.
King of Queens or whatever.
No, no, no.
This is just called the Ray Romano Show.
But everybody loves Raymond.
Yeah, yeah.
But basically, this is an episode where he has this whole strategy of how far away you should live from your mother in law.
And he says, now you don't want to be too close where she can just come over.
And he basically says, if she can come over, And a casserole still be hot by the time she gets there.
Then you're too close.
You're too close.
And he said, now, but here's the other problem.
It's like kind of like a donut.
He said, now, if she's so far away that when she comes over, there'll be an expectation for her to spend the night.
Spend the night.
So what you want is that she can't just pop in.
So she's not right across the street.
She can't bring over a casserole.
It'd be cold.
But also, there'd be no expectation to spend the night.
So he's like, you're looking at this 45 minute, 45 minutes, hour and a half distance.
That's your sweet spot.
So, yep.
Wise words.
I will say, I knew a couple, and this is from a long time ago.
It's not our church, it's not my family.
But they lived with her parents because they tried to start off, and then they moved.
It was literally just across a parking lot.
Then, finally, later in their married years, just down the street.
And her family controlled everything about their lives it was mom and dad's doctor's appointments, mom and dad's health issues, mom and dad's crises that they were going through.
And it really, I think, crippled his life and his development and his ability to stand as a man.
And so, there really is something to be said.
It's the first chapter of Genesis.
A man should leave his father and mother.
And cleave to his wife, and the two will become one.
So, egalitarian influences don't live down the street, don't share an apartment together.
That's just one practical way.
And we're not, just real quick, we're not to clarify, we're not giving an ironclad, you know, one size fits all.
Like, you can, if your parents, if there's a strong relationship there and you're like minded, not only is it permissible, but it's even ideal.
Like, with my parents, you know, I would love eventually, you know, that we build a compound, you know, and get a plot of land.
A pickleball court?
Yeah, it'd be our family, my parents, my sister, and her husband, their family, you know, like so.
Um, that can be done by God's grace.
Like, uh, you can have families that live with, I think of, you know, like the Wilsons, you know, and like where you have multiple grandchildren, multiple generations, all in one town, very close to each other.
And and some, not every case, but some of their cases, you know, like the Wilsons built, you know, their new house.
Um, Doug and Nancy, you know, I think on the Jenkoviks land where Rachel and Luke are, and um, and so you can do those things.
Um, and and it's wonderful.
What we're saying, just to put this clarification on it, so you guys don't say, like, they're saying don't ever live near your mother.
No.
Ray Romano's funny, and so I just had to share.
That was the purpose of that.
What we're saying is if your parents or your wife's parents have strong disagreements with the way that you're trying to lead your home, and not just strong disagreements, here's the other thing they could have strong disagreements, and still it wouldn't be a problem.
It's got to be two factors strong disagreements, and they have a proven track record that they cannot keep those disagreements to themselves.
That's when there's a problem, when they have the strong disagreement and they have to tell you about it.
Again and again and again.
And so part of it deals with the parents, but a big part of it honestly also has to deal with your spouse.
Because any wife, her parent, like if a wife, if think of it from this perspective now, as a parent, as a mother or a father, even if your daughter is a fully grown adult and lives somewhere else,
if your daughter is coming to you, even just verbally on the phone, and And crying or complaining, and like, oh, you know, I just, we go to church, and the pastor, you know, he's making me go to this church where the pastor believes patriarchy is what the Bible teaches.
And he started, he's starting to want to lead our family and family worship.
And, you know, and he's starting to, you know, then like, you're going to be inclined, your heart is going to be oriented as a parent, even if it's your adult child, your adult daughter.
To want to rush to her aid.
So, what I'm trying to say is that a big part of this goes back to being careful who you marry, especially the men.
Like, for the women, like.
Trust your dad.
Trust you.
Yeah, trust your dad, and you can marry the wrong guy.
But I just, like, I just, I've dealt with too many of these cases, dealing with one right now.
But let's just be honest.
The court system will side with the wife, not the husband.
She gets the house, she gets the kids, she gets, like, so.
Yeah, my heart right now goes to the men.
Absolutely.
100%.
I make no apology for that.
So, yes, women, you do need to be careful what man you marry.
No question about it.
But, men, listen to me, you need to be exceedingly careful.
Exceedingly careful.
Because the views of the Bible, the views of the Bible are treated as hate crimes by today's cultural and quickly even potentially becoming legal standards.
If you want to be a man who fears the Lord and holds to biblical patriarchy, and you're going to lead your wife to that kind of church that teaches those principles, and you're going to lead your wife and children as that kind of man in the home, then you have to make sure a single man, you cannot marry a woman who goes to gospel coalition conferences.
Right.
She will take you to court.
Right.
She will take everything you have, she will take your kids.
She will take your money.
She will take your house.
Like it's that serious.
It is that serious.
It's like that's hyperbolic.
He's just being extreme.
Nope.
I've dealt with the cases.
Right.
I've dealt with the cases.
I'm not going, of course, to betray anybody's trust.
I cannot tell you who, but I've dealt with the cases all the time.
I get that email from people.
My wife is leaving me.
She, you know, she follows Jim Loken, you know, blah, blah.
This is as common as common can be.
So, yeah, you know, be careful with the in laws.
Yes.
But we want to have multi generational families.
If your in laws agree with you, great.
Build a compound, live on the same plot.
That's incredible.
Be in the same town if you can, live by family, keep the fifth commandment, honor thy father and mother.
It's serious, it's significant, it matters.
Do that with your parents, do that with your wife's parents.
If they disagree with you and they can keep it to themselves and be mature about it and don't have to express it all the time, then C.8, be cordial and be involved.
But if they disagree with you sharply and they have to tell you about it all the time, then in those cases, that's the point that we're making.
Those are the cases where you have to put in some distance.
Honor Thy Father and Mother00:05:27
And to be honest, you rarely have those kinds of parents.
If your wife is truly on your side, right?
What I have found is more often than not, when you have those kinds of in laws who are prying in and asserting their two cents and giving their egalitarian feminist takes that are washed in some kind of Christian language, like we're Christian, so you don't respect us.
We're evangelical Christians just like you are.
We just believe everything that the world believes in 2024, or everything that rhinos like Liz Cheney and Jeb Bush believe.
But we're very devout Christians.
We love our daughter and we love Israel.
Okay, like that's cases.
By the thousands.
And when that happens, here's my point.
When those in laws insert themselves and they start waving their Christian flag that they're just as Christian as you are and more Christian, and that you're just a chauvinist, misogynist pig, even though you believe what every single Christian man and woman and child believed throughout all of church history until 60 years ago, and they start making you feel like you're criminal and you're abusive and you're all these kinds of things, just know, just know that it has been my case, undefeated 100% of the time.
That no matter how bad the in laws might be, that doesn't happen if the wife is on your side.
Yeah.
So, again, C point A if you're single, marry a solid wife.
Marry, because then even if she does have rough parents, she's not going and spouting your business, you, your household, your family's business to the parents.
It's not their business.
Yeah.
So, all right.
Do we want to call it?
There was a good one from Vlad.
I'll hit Michael's real quick.
Michael, we can just say that, yes.
No, it's.
I.
So, Michael, you know your question.
Would you agree?
Blah, Yes.
Of course, we agree.
Yeah.
100%.
Go ahead.
All right.
Vlad Yakubits?
Yakubits?
Yeah.
What is the best way to help a wife overcome certain ways feminism has affected her, even though she's pretty patriarchal currently?
First, I would affirm her moving in the patriarchal direction.
Yeah.
Praise God for the first time.
This is a very different.
Process than this is an encouraging process rather than my wife is completely at odds with me, right?
So that's fantastic, yeah, and getting farther away, yeah.
I was gonna say, um, man, young men it says somewhere, I think, believe in the proverb or psalms, the glory of young men is their strength, right?
And so men will want to, they'll arrive at a position like patriarchy, they'll then want to use their strength of logic and reason and history and just muscle family members, their wife, their family into it.
We talk about cage stage Calvinism all the time.
But so, if you have a wife that's trending in that direction, I know it can seem like we seem pretty hardcore.
So, it can seem like, wow, that's really your advice.
But give it time, I would certainly say.
It's not going to be something that's going to happen overnight.
And attempts to force it and strong arm it generally could then backfire on you and the progress you were making.
You stop.
So, all right, we're going in the right direction.
That's awesome.
Because then, on a long enough timeline, we arrive at the goal that's to be there.
So, I want to keep it developing.
It may take more time than I would like it to.
However, are we continuing this direction?
And if it pauses or it stalls, that's when it's maybe more acute, more directed.
Hey, let's spend some time.
We're going to spend some time, sit down with the elders, sit down with this couple that we respect to talk through this.
Yep.
And the only thing I would add to that also is just environment.
So, not just you as a husband leading her and leading her patiently, but also I have seen so many women get completely red pilled on the hashtag trad wife or whatever in good ways, really good ways.
Most of them are good ways.
But by simply Being around other women that have that hold to those convictions, and so, like, what I like here's one that you know sounds kind of funny and it's definitely sounds self serving, but I don't mean it that way.
But, um, conferences can be really, really like to go to a conference and be around a thousand people from all over the country, and oftentimes even outside of the country, other nations as well, um, where everybody is like minded, right?
And you walk into a room where you know you've got women who are head covering, and you've got you know.
Like the average family has, you know, like seven kids, you know, and the wives are wearing dresses, you know, and not three piece suits, you know, they're not dressed like Jen Wilkin.
They're wearing dresses, they look feminine, and the men look masculine.
And here's the biggest thing so there's all those things.
So they have lots of children, they have submissive posture, they're dressing feminine, and here's the key.
And also, they're happy.
Right.
And everybody's like laughing and talking, and there's, you know, whatever.
There might be like a beer and a psalm sing afterwards, you know, or everybody goes to a restaurant afterwards and is getting together and spending time together.
And, you know, in the breaks, you know, and during the lunch hours and all these kind of things are orchestrated, you know, there's an after party and there's this and that, you know, and everyone's just getting to spend, you know, not just the sessions.
Women Made to Follow00:09:47
It's not even about that.
In some ways, that's the least important part is you can usually, every single content that's ever been had, the content eventually becomes public.
But it's the, It's the time spent with people, not just four or five people.
Like, you may only have one or two other families in your whole local church that think like you.
Right.
And you guys are like holding on to each other for dear life.
You know, it's like Leonardo DiCaprio, you know, holding on to the raft, you know, and there's only room for one, although there was literally room for two, you know, in that scenario.
But, you know, and he's holding on.
Eventually, like, you're just going to sink and drown and freeze.
But, like, it doesn't have to be that way.
I know it's hard right now.
There aren't a lot of churches that hold to biblical values.
But look for those opportunities.
And I know it's a sacrifice financially, taking time off of work, those kinds of things.
But if you can, make that sacrifice.
We're going to say no to this vacation over here and we're going to do a conference instead.
We're going to bring the whole family, the kids.
And it's not just going to be me and the guys.
I'm bringing the wife.
I'm making sure back to in laws.
Maybe the in laws in this particular case can, you know, grandma and grandpa can watch the kids and we're going to be gone for three days.
But those things are huge.
So if you have a wife who's coming along, we'll keep bringing her along, be patient, be gentle.
But in addition to that, If you can bring her into a room where there's a thousand people and 500 of them are women wearing sundresses and most of them are head covering and they've got multiple children and they're all bragging about it and they're all happy, because that's the way women, it's the way society works and it's the way women work.
If I can just be honest for a second, women, they're made to follow.
So when you, it's like, oh, like, you know, we rage against the patriarchy, rebel against the machine.
Women have never raged against.
Anything ever in the history of mankind, ever.
Right.
Women are always deferring to whatever the cultural zeitgeist official authority happens to be in that moment.
So when women are painting their hair blue and choosing not to get married or running over their husband or this or that, it's because they're appealing to the highest authority in the culture at this time, which is feminism.
That's all it is.
So what they're doing is it's like the opposite of the doctrine of the lesser magistrate.
It's like this woman's rebelling, her dad.
Doesn't believe that her dad is heartbroken that she became a feminist that hates men and hates children and hates this and hates that.
Yeah, and so she's actually rebelling against authority.
No, she's appealing to an authority that she sees as being higher than her father's authority.
There was another, so she, there was once upon a time where she actually did respect when she was a little girl, she loved crawling into her dad's lap and kissing him on the cheek.
And, but eventually there was another authority that, that eventually replaced and defrocked her father's authority and said, I am, I am infinitely wise.
I'm far more superior in wisdom to your dad, superior in benevolence to your dad.
Your dad, he's kind of, he's actually, at the end of the day, he's kind of a bigot.
And he's actually not very kind and he's not loving.
And, you know, he doesn't even want his country to be taken over by, you know, 100 million illegal immigrants.
What a jerk, you know?
The guy, he just doesn't have a heart.
If you don't want your country to be absolutely destroyed by the entire world immigrating to your country and eating all of your cats and dogs and cannibalism eating the people, then what kind of a hateful bigot are you?
You know, your dad's probably one of those guys.
And that's, I mean, again, using strong language here, but that's literally what women are taught.
And so all that happens ultimately is that that woman's not being creative.
She's not being independent.
She is literally just submitting to another authority.
Right.
It's just the new zeitgeist, the new authority.
And so my point is, she's being pressured.
She's looking at society as a whole and she is going with the flow.
She believed Dr. Fauci more than the men did.
The men were like, what the heck is going on?
She believed Dr. Fauci all the way up.
Until enough people said no.
And then, as soon as enough people said no, she started to think for herself.
Nope.
There was just a new authority, and she started submitting to that one.
That is the way women work.
It's God's design.
That's the way they work.
So bring her in, right?
She's surrounded by the world, she's surrounded by Netflix and by all this garbage and by your church that claims to be complementarian, but it's Jen Wilkins, soft complementarian, that's actually egalitarian and feminist and all this.
That's her milieu.
She's swimming in it.
All the time.
So, like Wes said, be patient with her.
But the second thing you can do is you could bring her to the right response conference April 3rd, 4th, and 5th, where all of a sudden her feminine instincts that have been there all along, they're not gone.
They're still there by the grace of God.
They're still there.
Nature remains undefeated.
And you'll bring her into a room with 500 other women who, if she's a boss babe, she will feel out of place.
Yes, she will.
She will be ostracized.
She'll feel awkward.
And for three days, she's going, as all women do, she's going to want to fit in.
And she's going to be listening in and meeting people and trying to make relationships and trying to make friends like women do so well.
And she's going to be making friends and they're going to be talking about sourdough, much to Ali Beth's chagrin.
And they're going to be talking about how to do this and how to do that and what to do with the baby.
And if you can't breastfeed, how to supplement, how to make this work and how to make that work.
And she's going to be just enveloped, immersed in that culture.
And I know it's only three days.
But then, out of that, there's going to be massive inspiration.
You're going to have conversations for weeks after the fact.
She's going to hopefully get some phone numbers and build some relationships that she can continue.
And then, from that, you also, because we will do things like this at the conference, we'll say, who's from this state?
Who's from that state?
Who's from this area?
And maybe you guys can find that you make some friends at this conference, and some of them are only 40 miles away, you know, and it's still a distance, but maybe you can visit them once a month, you know, and maybe you could start going to their church twice a month.
And that those things radically, if everybody became patriarchal tomorrow, is my point, if everybody held that view tomorrow, 100% of the men and only 15 or 20% of the women, the other 85% 80% of the women would immediately, within, I would take bets, I would say, within, by the end of the week, within seven days, they'd all say, Yeah, I never actually believed that.
They would immediately begin to be embarrassed about the views that they held 15 minutes ago.
Yeah, feminism.
Yeah, that never really made sense to me.
I always thought it was dumb.
They would immediately fall in line.
The reason why women are feminists today is because the reigning dogma and authority in this current moment tells them that that's what obedience is.
To the Globo Homo Jihad looks like.
They are not raging against authority.
They're submitting to authority.
It's just a godless authority.
So, submerse your wife with a bunch of people who think godly, who think Christianly, and who think like you on the issue, who love the scripture, and for her to see, oh, they're actually, I would not be the only woman.
If I follow my husband in this conviction, I will not be standing alone.
I will not be crazy.
I will not be the only woman going against everybody else.
There's actually lots of other women who are doing this too.
There's a family that we met at the very first Right Response Conference.
And my wife and the wife of this couple have kept in touch.
They text.
And every time they come to the conference or they're in town, we have lunch with them.
And it's exactly what you say.
Like they were fairly new believers, kind of not sure about these things.
And, you know, they're going to a church and praise the Lord, they found a good church.
But still, my wife has kept in touch with her.
And we see them every time they come to the conference.
We have lunch with them on Sunday after the Sunday service.
And it's been fantastic.
Amen.
That's good.
All right.
Well, speaking of wives and children, you need to see yours.
You need to see yours.
And mine, I think I can hear something rumbling off in the distance.
So thanks, guys, for tuning in.
We appreciate it.
Please share the video, like the video, subscribe to the YouTube page if you haven't already.
Support the channel, support this ministry if you're able to do so.
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Rightresponseconference.com in order to register for the conference.
It's going to be Thursday.
Friday, Saturday, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th, next year, 2025.
Join us for a live stream on November 5th, that Tuesday night, with the election.
And also join us over on Patreon, patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
Patreon.com forward slash right response ministries for, as you saw the commercial at the beginning of this, but those of you who are just tuning in now, we've got a nine part series with myself and Pastor Andrew Isker on how the church should think about Israel.
And it's making waves.
And I'll be honest, it's making, I mean, obviously people are going to.
It's me.
People are going to hate it.
But it's making a lot of good waves.
There's been a lot of really positive feedback.
And not just positive feedback like, you red pilled me and I'm not a dispensational Zionist anymore.
But also a lot of positive feedback of guys saying, I've been on the ledge and I've gone too far and I've pulled back.
And guys even using the word saying, I'm repenting.
I realized that I went too far.
And what you're saying makes sense of the scripture.
It makes sense of the culture.
It makes sense of what's going on.
I wish you had been here saying these things five years earlier.
When I was going down the 4chan rabbit hole all by myself.