Joel Webbett defends a church member who privately shared Holocaust memes and questioned WWII narratives, arguing against immediate excommunication despite pressure from Pastor Tobias. Webbett asserts that while Talmudic Judaism denies Christ's deity, the member believes Jews can be saved, contrasting his partial preterist view of Romans 11 with traditional Reformed theology. He links modern geopolitical conflicts to unhealthy dispensationalism and criticizes pastors for abandoning young men questioning authority, urging donations to sustain Right Response Ministries while promoting an upcoming series on Israel's theological implications. [Automatically generated summary]
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Christian Blasphemy Laws00:11:45
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We need Christian blasphemy laws right here in these United States of America.
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So, a member in my church shared a meme about the Holocaust, and as you may have seen online, some notable pastors publicly put some pressure on him as well as me.
To actually put him under church discipline.
I didn't really want to address this, but I think maybe it's time to.
So let's talk about it.
Tune in now.
All right, here we are.
Welcome, Michael.
Yep, good to see you, Joel.
Unfortunately, Wesley is under the weather today, so not going to be here, but looking forward to getting back together with him again next week.
So, yeah, as you said, Joel, the topic this week is a meme or a controversial view on the Holocaust or any other historical event, really, for that matter.
I mean, barring the historical events in the Bible, like the birth and death and resurrection of Christ, are those things that warrant church discipline?
Right.
Are those things that warrant even a sort of censorship or a sort of cancellation by Christians?
You know, are we punching right?
Is this a legitimate thing to be concerned about?
And certainly, does it rise to the level of an offense that we would excommunicate someone or bar them from the table or something like that?
So, that's really the question that we're going to be exploring today.
Yeah.
And well, I would just say, like, as a little bit of a spoiler alert here, but this individual just, To put everybody at ease, maybe not everybody, much to the chagrin potentially of some, but to put, I think, most reasonable thinking people at ease, this member is still a member in good standing at our church.
A dear brother in Christ, love him, love his wife, love his kids, and we're honored to have them as a part of our church.
Yeah.
So, since we are going to be talking about the question of whether or not this is something that should be church disciplined, we wanted to take just a minute to say that.
We believe in church discipline as a tool, a necessary and even good tool that God has given the church.
We are in the middle, very slow.
We're very slow with this.
So, not weeks, but months.
But we are unfortunately in the middle of a church discipline case as a congregation right now.
We've already hit the level of beyond just individually, the two or three, but it's now been brought to the church corporately.
And so, we had a members' meeting a few months ago where we reached in Matthew 18 the tell it to the church phase.
And then the final phase is tell it to the church, and if he does not listen to the church.
And what that implies is that there would be a period of time using prudence and weighing the situation and weighing the person, their heart, and any signs of repentance that there might be.
But tell it to the church, if he does not listen to the church, then hand him over.
Treat him as a tax collector or a Gentile, an outsider.
So you would still continue to treat them evangelistically, as we would all tax collectors and Gentiles, but no longer as a brother or sister in Christ.
But the point is, when it says tell it to the church, Matthew 18, it does not say that the elders of the church should tell the church the decision that they have already rendered.
So you're not telling the church the choice that the elders have already made.
Hey, we wanted to let you know that so and so has been removed from our church.
Note that it, in this context, is not the decision, but the situation.
Not the decision, but the situation.
Tell it, that is the matter.
Tell the matter to the church.
And what you're doing is you're then commissioning.
The church, before the church exercises the keys of the kingdom to actually bind or loose, to actually remove the individual, before that, you're first telling the church not the decision that the elders made in an executive sense, but you're telling the church the matter and commissioning the church to now corporately and publicly seek that person unto repentance.
So it's tell it, that is the matter to the church, not the decision.
Now the church has been commissioned to pursue and pray for this individual.
And then a period of time is allotted.
If during that period of time he does not listen to the church, so now it's no longer just the individuals or the elders' appeals and pleas for repentance, but the whole church now begging the person, pleading with them to repent.
And if, as some time goes by, he does not listen to the church, then you hand him over, then you're removing that individual.
So we have tragically, we have had to excommunicate one member from the church.
Our church we planted in April 2021, so three and a half years.
Now existing as a church.
We've excommunicated one individual and we are currently in a church discipline case with another individual.
But the individual that we're going to discuss today, we're not going to name them because we don't want, because here's the deal, and this is why Christians, I wish that Christians would be more careful.
This is a good Christian man.
I don't believe that he is an impenitent sin.
There have been some views that I would disagree with and some initial concerns that I had, but here's a crazy thought.
You know, I'll just throw it out there.
Uh, but uh, when I had some initial concerns, what I decided to do was sit down and have a conversation with him, yeah, yeah, and actually not with somebody else, not with somebody else, but with him.
I didn't write a blog about it, I didn't do a podcast about it.
I sat down privately with him and I asked him questions.
I said, Here are my concerns, and so I would like to clarify seeking clarification.
Do you believe blank?
Do you believe blank?
And I went over a whole list of questions with the individual that we'll get to in a moment.
I have them still on my phone that I used with him.
Seven different questions, and the answers that he gave me that I think were all thoroughly biblical, and I have no problem.
But the point is, this never became church discipline.
So, as a church, one church discipline case sadly ended in excommunication.
Another that we're currently in, the verdict has still not come back in.
We're praying for repentance.
And then this other case that has never been something that we have elevated to church discipline because it is absolutely, I don't want to be rude here, but I think it's the accurate way to frame it.
It would be stupid, absolutely stupid and ridiculous, and worse than that, I believe, by a biblical parameter, abusive.
It would be pastoral abuse to put this young man under church discipline.
And I think that'll become clear as we share some of the details of the Holocaust meme fiasco.
Real quick, we should probably just say what the meme was.
Yeah, go ahead.
So some of you may have seen it online, you know, as.
As this has been discussed, multiple notable pastors, I'm not trying to pick on anybody in particular, but multiple pastors addressed this situation and said, There's a church where this is even in Reformed churches, and there's a Reformed church in Texas where this is going on, and a young man shared a Holocaust meme.
And so, to just break the ice here, that church was my church, that was our church.
And this young man is, again, a great, godly Christian man.
We're not ashamed of it.
In fact, I am proud and honored to have him as a member of my church because we're a church that doesn't just love people a mile to our left, but we actually also love young men an inch to our right.
Very rare these days to find a church like that.
If you're looking for one, feel free to check us out.
We are in Georgetown, Texas, about an hour north of Austin.
Go to covenantbible.org, covenantbible.org, and we'd love to see you on a Sunday for our Lord's Day worship.
So, A lot of guys have talked about this.
And so you're probably familiar with the meme because it was in Doug Wilson's blog.
It was discussed by James White.
And these are all men that we highly respect and love.
And I even had the opportunity to talk briefly with James White on the phone and bring a little bit of clarity to him.
But the question is well, how did it get to all these guys?
I think what people assumed, and this is one of the details that is absolutely imperative for people to know.
And because if you've been watching this story, you know, you read Doug's blog or you listened to the particular dividing line episode with James White, I would assume that you think.
Um, that there was a member of a reformed church, and now you know that was my church that shared this meme publicly, right?
I guarantee all of you watching right now that's what you assume.
You assume he shared it on X, right?
Or he shared it on Instagram or whatever.
Well, Instagram would probably take it down, but X, you know, he shared it on X, uh, and and you know, and it got retweeted by Nick Fuentes, you know, and uh, and it got millions of views.
Turns out, you know, this insidious, you know, Jew hatred and Nazi infatuation is actually, you know, the source of it comes from.
I'm a reformed church of all places, and they're deep within our ranks, and there's rot in our bones.
And this is a really serious.
Well, here's the actual truth, right?
Sometimes it's helpful to have things like truth.
Okay, so here's the actual truth.
The meme was never publicly shared by this individual in our church.
Right.
He texted it, not shared it on social media.
He texted it privately to a text thread of 40 people.
Nope.
Two.
Two people.
Yeah.
And one of these people, being another man in our church, a friend of his, And they both laughed because they both hold the same historical view.
And that was the end of it.
But the other person, and this is where he messed up, is he texted to his former pastor.
And so you might be wondering well, if it was private, how does this show up in Blog and May Blog and the dividing line?
And how does everybody know about this, Joel?
That doesn't make any sense.
Well, because he texted to his former pastor, where he was a member in good standing for about a decade in personal.
Personal friends with the pastor there.
And he texted to his former pastor because he thought that they were friends and because, not just randomly out of the blue, like, ha ha, I found something funny, but he texted to him because he had been talking with his former pastor about how his views were particularly changing on this issue of World War II history and that he was starting to have some serious doubts and questions about what actually happened.
Reevaluating History Books00:08:24
In Germany in the 1940s, and what really happened with the Jews and the Bolsheviks and all these different factors that were going on.
And in Poland, how many prisoners of war were actually taken?
How many of them actually died?
How did they die?
Was it malicious?
Or was it that they died through starvation because Churchill cut off all trade?
And so your own people, women and children in Germany, were starving.
And when your own people are starving, the prisoners of war usually.
Are going to get the shortest end of the stick.
And just for the record, we're not going to get into World War II.
That's not my position.
I'm not going to share my position because here's the deal I don't want to be a fool.
And the reality is that we're talking about history where there's been a mainline consensus for 80 years.
And I think that it's wrong.
Okay, so I will say that.
I think it's wrong.
How wrong and what parts of it are wrong, we're not going to divulge.
And the reason why is not because I'm afraid to talk about it.
But because I would want to do a minimum of hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of study before I go airing my opinions like a fool, right?
The fool loves to hear his own opinions.
He won't be quiet.
So, this is not going to be an episode about this, it is definitively for sure what went down with the history in World War II.
It was, you know, it was this many millions, you know, or this many thousands, or blah, blah, blah.
That's not what this podcast is about.
This is going to be what I can speak to, what I have spent hundreds and thousands of hours studying is how to be, according to the word of God, a faithful pastor.
Right.
So, I'm going to speak at the level of church membership and pastoral ministry.
How do we love our brothers in Christ who realized over the last few years that they've been lied to about everything?
And all they're really doing at the end of the day is they're applying that rubric of, well, the medical institution has lied, the media has lied, academia has lied, the White House and politics have lied, the church and all big Eva and all these evangelicals were bought and paid for.
You've got David French and Francis Collins and all the Russell Moore.
Every single right in the last four or five years, a bunch of young men have realized every single credible person in their life lied to them.
Yep, and so they're just begging the question, uh, well, then what else was I lied about?
And part of the reason, just for the record, that they're questioning, particularly World War II, is because historically it doesn't take right, this is something that is not like it's not some deep conspiracy that you know only 14 people in the entire world are privileged to.
We're talking about something that anybody with a history book. Can look back, and certainly the victors get to the victors go the spoils.
They get to write the history books.
So you can have questions about the history, and that can be really hard to find the actual true history of what went down.
And I suspect that there will always be certain questions because, well, so and so said this, okay, but so and so said that.
And so you can read Pat Buchanan, The Unnecessary War, Hitler and Churchill.
But that was a New York Times bestseller 15 years ago.
And that's essentially what Daryl Cooper said on Tucker Carlson a few weeks back.
Marty made part.
Martyr made podcast.
He was basically, if you're wondering, like, where can I read more about that?
Well, you know, you could pretty much get everything that Daryl Cooper said in that two hour interview.
You could have gotten it 15 years ago from Pat Buchanan's book, which again was a New York Times bestseller.
So we're not talking about some crazy, crazy far alt right views that, you know, you should be locked up in jail.
Pat Buchanan, you can disagree with them.
You can find him controversial, but he was not some, he was conservative, but he was not some far.
Right, you know, Hitler apologist.
He was no Nazi fan.
So these are not the mainline consensus about World War II, which that's the problem.
But these are still pretty widely spread ideas.
And so my point is I'm not saying it's easy to find out the actual history, but I'm saying all these young men who red pilled in 2020, it is fairly easy though for them to look at history and find out that we had 1,500 years of Christendom.
Right.
And then And then, for the last 80 years since World War II, we allegedly won.
And yet, all of the West looks like it lost.
That's what's going on young men are saying, So you're telling me we won the war.
But since then, we've murdered 70 million children in the womb just in the United States.
And we're cutting off the genitals of little kids.
And we are flooding our nations and diluting.
The cultures and the heritages, and with foreign immigrants tearing down statues, and we're selling cathedrals and turning them to mosques.
Right.
And we have, you know, we have fascism is not prevalent.
The boogeyman of fascism is, sure.
But in terms of actual threats, fascism is not one of them, not in the United States, not at this time.
But we have communism and Marxism that are rampant everywhere.
So you're telling me we won.
It doesn't feel like it.
It doesn't feel like we won.
That's what's going on.
If you're wondering, well, why the new fascination and why this and why that?
Why are young men.
You know, thinking these things.
You know what?
Wes couldn't be here, but he had to try to get his input on the show somehow.
So he sent us something.
Wes kind of, I think, addressed this question well.
He wrote this up for me and Michael to read on his behest.
Can you read it real quick?
So this is a commentary on why maybe it's worth looking into some of these things and why some of the young men in our time are reevaluating this.
So these are Wes' words.
He says, One important fact that is important to remember is that there were some good things that happened in 1930s Germany.
Early book burnings burned Jewish pornography and transgender literature, which, by the way, there was a huge push to spread transgenderism and homosexuality throughout Germany in the 1930s.
So, book burnings were banning Jewish pornography and transgender literature, and later policies promoted the nuclear family through forgivable loans while there was a general acceptance of Christianity throughout Germany.
These items are things we wish we had and even would support now.
Men are drawn to the vision of Germany because it was one of the few, if not the only, places that actually rebuffed and defeated communism and liberalism.
We will get a lot farther by acknowledging 1930s Germany had some upsides, and we can understand why those living in the equivalent of the Weimar Republic long for the symbolism of the strength and the will to reject degeneracy.
And so his point is in a certain sense, there was a concerted effort to push back against extreme moral degeneracy, similar to what we see now.
Right.
And then Wes went, you might have actually read this.
I have it here.
Okay, the however portion.
So, and I thought this was wise.
So go ahead and read that.
He says, however, so this is, we're not jumping into the same path that Germany went down.
However, the US has a rich political history, and we don't need to import 20th century German political programs in order to beat liberalism.
Although, liberalism must be beaten.
It has to.
Yeah.
Our history is older, stronger, more Christian, and more robust.
Than Germany's.
Germany is a unique European country that is geographically smaller than Texas.
Our solution to communism will have to be American made and suited for our national situation.
Yep.
I thought that that was well written.
So that's Wesley Todd piping in.
So back to, you know, so that I think that's part of why young men are begging the question and saying, well, did we really win?
Did the good guys really win?
You know, is this, you know, and if so, then why has everything gotten worse?
Why are we further from God?
Strong Gods vs Weak Gods00:06:03
Further from tradition, further families are more fractured, you know, all these different things.
And that, in a nutshell, you know, you've probably heard a lot of guys talk about the post war consensus, the post war consensus.
That's been a big theme over the last year and a half that a lot of guys have done a lot of great, put out a lot of great content in regards to.
The first time that I heard the post war consensus, that phrase being used, was R.R. Reno in his book that I read about a year and a half ago when all the usual suspects were reading.
You know, it's like, it's almost like we have a synced up.
Calendars.
Like we're reading about the Crusades, you know, it's Rodney Stark, you know, it's now, you know, we're reading R.R. Reno.
But his book was Return of the Strong Gods, lowercase g gods.
And he wasn't talking about the strong gods as in pagan gods of mythology.
So he wasn't saying like the return of Thor or Poseidon, you know.
He was talking about the strong gods for Reno.
And the way that he described it was he was saying the strong gods are things like tradition, religion, patriarchy, the natural forces.
Yep.
Exactly.
Nature.
Yep.
Exactly.
Those things which are grounded in the natural order.
So it's.
Religion, it's tradition, it's patriarchy, hierarchy, and it's nationalism.
As opposed to the weak gods, would be things like instead of tradition, it's progressivism.
Instead of religion, it's science.
And we know as Christians that science and religion aren't at odds.
Or secularism.
But it's the science, TM.
It's not actually science.
It's science, but as a not a practice or a study, but as a god.
Science as a As a deity, so it's instead of tradition, it's progressivism, instead of religion, it's science and secularism, instead of family, it's the individual, instead of patriarchy and hierarchy, it's feminism and egalitarianism.
And then, of course, a big one is instead of nationalism, it's globalism, yes, right?
So, it's what is it?
It's trash world, yeah.
The weak gods are if you summed them all up globalism, science, egalitarianism, everybody's not just equal opportunity, but But everybody is the same, and we should force equal outcomes.
This egalitarian, feministic, globalistic, progressive milieu that we're swimming in is what we would call trash world.
That's our conference that's coming up.
How to defeat trash world.
And according to Reno's language, how to defeat the weak gods.
And if you were to sum all those weak gods up into what do they do?
What do they accomplish?
What's the purpose?
The weak gods are the gods of inclusivism.
Right.
That's what they are.
The weak gods are openness, inclusivism, never telling someone that they don't belong, never telling someone that they're wrong.
The weak gods are against objective truth.
Right.
They're against transcendent realities.
The weak gods are, it's relativism, it's this, it's that.
So the weak gods are, what do they lend themselves towards?
Nations without borders.
Yep.
A full scale invasion of immigration, polytheism, secularism, multiculturalism, multiculturalism, like all these things women in every position of leadership, women in combat roles in the military, women police officers, women secret agents, women vice presidents.
Right, exactly.
This secret service, women vice presidents, women, if they could, president at every single level.
That's what the weak gods are.
And the weak gods, I think of like David and Saul.
The women were singing when David comes back from war, you know, Saul has killed his thousands and David is tens of thousands.
Well, if the strong gods killed their millions, the weak gods have killed their hundreds of millions.
So if Hitler did, in fact, kill his millions, and let's just say he did, I don't have a strong position on it.
I tend to think that the numbers are exaggerated.
I don't think that they're made up whole cloth, but I do think that they're probably a little bit high.
But that being said, let's just go with it.
If Hitler killed his millions, Mao killed his hundred millions.
And so these strong gods of a deep patriotic nationalism and religious undertones, instead of it just being secular, non religious, you know, and tradition and family and father rule, patriarchy versus egalitarianism and individualism, everyone's this, you know, everyone's an atom, this atomistic view of mankind.
If the strong gods of Hitler, Killed their millions.
Then the weak gods on the left, which all of them, you know, like, what kind of, how do you sum that up?
It's inclusivism.
It's also, here's another word, it's communism.
All these weak gods were the virtues pushed by every major communist leader that we've seen in the past several centuries in Western history.
And so this is the Bolsheviks.
This is, This is, like I said, Mao, this is Stalin, Mussolini, this is like all these guys, you know, Lenin, that these are the weak gods.
And although the United States and Great Britain, you know, won ultimately World War II, the virtues of the strong gods that are rooted in the natural order, they lost.
And the weak gods of the gay, global, homo, you know, agenda absolutely won.
Kings and Nationalism00:03:14
Yep.
Europe has since World War II, France is barely even a country anymore.
And within a few decades, we'll be entirely Muslim if something doesn't change.
England is on its way.
It's 10% Muslim, I think, at this point, and it's well on its way to catch up with France.
And eventually, there will be no English country.
Did you hear that just recently they announced that the House of Lords in England, which they have two houses, they have House of Commons, House of Lords, And the House of Lords has not had a whole lot of power for a long time, but it's represented the tradition of noble families who are charged with ruling the nation, stewarding the resources of the nation.
It was just announced that they are going to cease the hereditary seats of the House of Lords altogether because it's not fair to those who are newly come to the country.
Yeah, that's stupid.
So that's exactly what we're talking about.
These are the weak gods.
And so guys are starting to think, well, wait a second.
Nationalism, maybe nationalism is a good idea.
I mean, at the end of the day, Acts chapter 17, nations are God's ideas, God's idea in the first place.
God's the one who sets their times and their borders.
Nations actually do have borders, and they, in the providence of God, they come into origin at a particular time.
And when God sees fit, nations rise and fall within God's providential plan.
So, nations are a good idea.
Certainly, religion, particularly the Christian religion, the worship of the triune God, is a good idea.
Patriarchy is God's design for the world.
Hierarchy is inescapable.
We're not all the same.
We all are equal as it pertains to intrinsic dignity and value in an eternal sense in the sight of God.
The slave is no less than the master.
The wife is no less than the husband.
The children are no less than the parents.
We all have, as image bearers of the living God, an intrinsic, equal dignity and eternal value and worth.
But that does not mean that we're all the same and that we're all equal in a temporal, earthly fashion.
There are generals and there are foot soldiers.
There are kings and there are paupers.
You know, there are husbands and wives and children and so on and so forth.
And this is inescapable.
This isn't, these are not the results of the curse of sin.
We would have had kings.
Yes.
If Adam and Eve had never sinned in the first place, this is not the result of the fall.
This is actually God's good design.
The result of the fall is that kings are often corrupt and they abuse their powers.
But kings in themselves are not the fall.
There would be a government.
Nations would have civil magistrates.
It's like, well, there'd be no crime to punish and no foreign.
Yeah, but somebody would still have to decide do we drive on the right side of the road or the left side of the road?
There would still be, okay, we're going to pay taxes.
How much?
And what are we paying taxes on?
And these things would be done.
Without sin, they'd be done righteously, but they would still have to be done.
There would be still positions of authority.
The fifth commandment would still be a commandment whether Adam and Eve had ever sinned or not.
There would still be deference and honor that is obligatory to show to fathers and to mothers for that matter.
Western Values and Kings00:10:29
So all these things, they're coming rushing back.
Basically, gay globalism has overplayed its hand, secular humanism has overplayed its hand.
Um, these last few years, it was kind of like slowly boiling the frog alive, and then all of a sudden, the left got cocky, turned up the heat, and a lot of the frogs stayed in because all their nerve endings were already melted away and they couldn't even feel it, they were basically dead.
Uh, but there were some frogs that were damaged, you know, but they at least had enough nerve endings still functional to where they could feel this spike, this quick spike in the heat, and they've jumped out of the pot.
And now they're looking around the room for the first time, you know, and it's like the Matrix, you know, they finally have.
You know, taking the red pill and then gotten unplugged and looking at the real world, and they're like, Whoa, it's bad.
It's really, really, really bad.
And so then they're begging the question, Where did it get off track?
And there's an argument to be made for, you know, you can go all the way back and say, Well, Adam and Eve in the garden, you know.
Oh, yeah.
You know, but there's also something to be said for, Well, we really got off track with the Enlightenment.
I think in America, I think that we got off track with the Civil War.
I think there was some.
So you talk about, you know, revisionist history.
We're going to have to go back and look at.
The Civil War.
But then also, I think a lot of guys have noticed that one of the major worldwide, right?
Because it's not just the United States.
It's not just the US.
Exactly.
You're looking at Europe and you see the same problems, and they're even exasperated.
And so, guys are looking like, well, what was a global event?
And in recent, you know, collective memory, World War I and World War II.
And so, guys are looking back and they're saying, what really happened?
If we won, if the West won, why does it feel like we lost?
Why has everything gone to crap?
And so, Some guys are going perhaps too far with that, but I think you could see why you might want to be a little sympathetic and saying, Yeah, I get it.
I get why you're coming to these conclusions.
And then the solution is, Well, let's talk about it.
Right.
Let's talk about it.
So, all that being said, back to this meme and this particular member.
I want to say one other thing about that before you move on.
So, I think the sad reality is that people, young men who are noticing that.
The World War II narrative has been used to weaken and undermine Christendom and Western values, traditional Western values.
The ones who are seeing that, the sad reality is they have to look at pre World War II Germany to find an example of a nation that sought to defend its borders.
It was a Christian nation before that, had Christian values, and people are having to look at.
Pre World War I Germany to find a nation that was resisting some of these pushes.
And you will say to me, well, the US fought communism in the Cold War.
You know that the CIA, when it was quote unquote fighting communism, it was doing things like promoting Jackson Pollock paintings, right?
Our solution to communism was not biblical virtue and piety.
It was let's pursue and push rampant self expression, sexual expression, sexual freedom.
Communism is stiff and rigorous and stuffy.
And so we're going to paint ourselves as the libertines and the free.
Yeah, the laissez-faire, we're going to out-free them.
We're going to out-individual them.
And we did win the Cold War, but it wasn't through Christian values and virtues.
It was by it's through individualism and relativism.
Yes.
And so we have to look all the way back.
Look at how happy and free we are.
We have to look all the way back.
And so that's what some of these guys are saying, these young men are saying.
Why aren't the nations now, if you're so concerned about what I'm posting, why aren't you fighting against my nation, my pastor, my city, my family?
Why aren't you fighting against the utter destruction of Western values and culture.
Right.
Yeah.
And by God's grace, a lot of faithful ministers are, you know, at least in our camp, in our tribe.
And there are a lot of guys who are fighting that.
And they see it as just useful idiots at best and, you know, feds, you know, and controlled opposition at worst.
Right.
So they see it as like, no, we are fighting communism.
We are fighting these kinds of things and, you know, the fake and gay trash world.
And, you know, And you guys are not helping our cause.
And I understand that.
I understand that.
I think the question is okay, but then how do we deal with someone who has some really legitimate questions?
And I think the more that we say, well, you can't look into these things.
Yes, right.
Like I just, I know how young men think.
I, you know, at this point, I'm 38 years old.
I'm not that young, but it wasn't that long ago that I was.
And I know how young men think.
And when they have not just one or two individuals, but they have almost like the entire world all in unison, simultaneously saying, You must never go there.
It's like Mufasa and Simba, that dark, shadowy place.
You must never go there.
Well, then they go there.
And then they go there alone and unguided.
They go there alone.
And the reality is there is no reasonable, responsible, biblically equipped older man.
Who seems to be willing to go with them and to have those kinds of conversations that are important?
And the post war consensus, which in a nutshell is basically just saying everything I don't like is Hitler.
And all the things that I don't like, which are Hitler, Trump is Hitler, this is Hitler, that's Hitler, Joel's Hitler, whatever, all these things that I don't like are Hitler.
And what's the common denominator, the common thread running throughout all these things that you don't like that you're calling Hitler?
They're old things, traditional things, they're religious things instead of secular things.
They're things that have a natural order and hierarchy.
They're things that are usually distinctly masculine, patriarchy and not feminism.
And they're things that hold to a strong patriotic national sense instead of this, I'm a citizen of the world, man, like globalism.
And so that's where we are the post war consensus has been operating at full strength for 80 years.
And has kept everybody plugged into the matrix where their eyes are rolled back in their head and nobody sees what's going on, but the spell is lifting.
And I think that largely, on the whole, sure, there are some abuses, and sure, there will be some individuals who go too far and are foolish.
But by and large, I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I don't want us to miss the big picture.
The post war consensus, like a spell, is lifting after 80 years.
Almost winter is lifting in Armageddon.
Always winter, never Christmas.
It's almost been 100 years.
The post war consensus is lifting, and this is a good thing.
Yeah.
So, the big picture is white pills in the chat.
We should be encouraged.
This is a good thing.
And then, what do we do so that the guys don't start painting swastika, getting swastika tattoos on their arms and stuff like that?
Well, what we do is we say, yeah, the post war consensus really, really was bad.
But we don't need to be Nazis.
The Nazis were bad.
The Bolsheviks were also very bad, arguably worse.
But the Bolsheviks being maybe worse doesn't mean.
That the Nazis were good.
We don't have to have that simplistic of a view of history.
Well, I found out there was actually another bad guy.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
And so then the guy that I thought previously was a bad guy must actually be the last Christian prince and has done no wrong.
It's like, you know, seated before Christ, you know, there's 13 thrones for the 12 apostles and then Hitler's on it.
Like, no, I don't think we have to adopt that as our new view.
I think that's foolish.
Nazis were bad and so were the Bolsheviks.
You know, we don't want communism.
We need to beat communism.
You're not going, in my assessment, and I think you agree, we're not going to beat communism with classical liberalism.
Classical liberalism does not have the fortitude and the strength, the teeth to beat communism.
That's why it's losing.
That's why it's losing.
And it's been losing for quite a long time, a lot longer than just 80 years.
So, what we're going to need is we're going to need a foolproof Christian political theology.
Yep.
And here's the deal.
Pre World War I and World War II, Germany was pretty good.
It was for 12 years.
I mean, it was 12 years of unparalleled prosperity.
Every single kid, if you had a kid, you got 25% off of all taxes.
So if you had four kids, you paid no taxes in Germany.
The women were happy.
The men were happy.
The children were happy.
And so I get why guys go there.
But here's the deal number one, that's not the National Socialistic Party of the Nazis that came later.
Right.
Okay.
And two, we don't need Germany.
Right.
We have.
All right.
And so here I'm going to show my own nationalistic pride.
I don't need Germany.
We're Americans.
That's right.
America, baby.
We have the richest tradition you could possibly ask for right here in these United States of America apple pie, baseball, and Jesus.
We've got the whole nine yards, everything that we need.
And John Wayne, this is America.
We can look to the Puritans.
We can look to the reformers and the ones who came over here.
We can look to George Washington and John Adams.
All these things we can look to even before 1776, we can look to the 13 colonies, and we can look to we have this rich doctrine of a Christian civil magistrate right here in these United States of America to be our guide that is strongly national.
That's not this gay, no borders, and globo homo, you know, whatever.
Baptists and Jewish Conversion00:15:18
That's national, it's religious, it's distinctly Christian, it is absolutely patriarchal.
All the things that we want, we can recover, and we can recover it here.
Without any swastikas necessary.
It's a pretty good deal.
So, all that being said, again, so then how did this meme get out to where all these guys have seen it in Doug Wilson's blog and with James White on the dividing line and all, you know, this meme that, you know, that is this sinister, insidious meme that's been shared in Reformed churches?
It was texted to two people, one of them being another member in our church who he's friends with, texting it to a friend, the other being his former pastor who is a pastor in Germany.
And I'm going to name him because he's gone on several shows.
I didn't want to do this, but he's gone on several different podcasts naming me.
So his name is Tobias.
And he's a pastor in Frankfurt, Germany, of a Reformed Baptist church.
We have been friendly in the past.
I love him.
I think he's a great man and a great pastor.
But I think he botched it on this one.
And so he's talking to this former member of his church, who's now a member of my church.
And at some point in the conversation, this member in our church sends this meme.
So, what is the meme?
It's a 1950s kind of setting, black and white sketch, animation.
Like Rockefeller, you know, kind of style of a mother who's baking and her daughter who's sitting at the kitchen table.
And the daughter says, Mom, what's the Holocaust?
And the mom answers and says, Oh, sweetheart, that's the one time in history that Jews had to do manual labor.
And so they claim that it killed them.
So he shares this meme.
And here's the deal with this former pastor, and the former pastor loses his mind.
And he comes to me, and I end up having a two hour conversation.
A Zoom call with him and all of his elders and this member of my church.
Who's a member of your church now?
He's a member of my church now, but we're meeting with this other church and all of his former elders where he is no longer a member.
And him, myself, and this member of our church now, we're two hours, the first hour, we're just quiet and just listening to all their many, many concerns.
And then we are addressing their concerns.
We spent the last hour telling it, well, here's our view on this, here's our view on that.
Well, since that meeting, I thought that that would be the end of it.
I thought, you know, that.
But since that meeting, Tobias has gone on several different people's podcasts, some of them well known, and continuing to talk about the situation.
Because honestly, I don't think Tobias will be satisfied unless this member of my church is excommunicated.
He wants this member of my church, him and his wife, who agrees with her husband and their children, to be kicked out of our church.
And I just want to say publicly right now, just in case it wasn't clear, not going to happen.
Not going to happen.
You cannot say, dance monkey, excommunicate.
I'm sorry, I won't do that.
And this is why the young men will continue to come to me and no one will remember your name.
And I wish that wasn't the case.
I really do.
I wish it wasn't the case.
I want better for you, brother.
But I can't stop you from shooting yourself in the foot.
So here we are.
So that was the meme.
And how did it become so public in well known pastors' blogs?
Because he shared it privately with his former pastor, and that former pastor talked to me, but then he also went and talked to everyone else.
I mean, to dozens of other pastors about his former church member who is now in another Reformed Baptist church, and his pastor is fully aware and dealing with the situation.
All the elders in our church know the situation.
We have talked to this individual, love this individual, asking them the right questions and walking them through it.
In other words, it wasn't anybody else's business.
I understand if he shared it on X publicly and everybody saw it and it got picked up by Nick Fuentes and millions of people were seeing it, you know, and all these other reformed Christians were coming out and saying, yeah, we love Hitler.
And like, then, okay, then you might need to address it in that public format.
But that is not what happened.
And everybody who knows what I'm talking about until right now, us doing this episode, they probably naturally, I would have assumed the same thing.
They probably all assumed this was a meme that was shared publicly.
And that's the crazy and I believe tragic irony.
Is that everyone assumes that it's being publicly treated because it was publicly shared and it wasn't?
Right, it was texted privately to two people, one of those being your former pastor, where you remember in good standing for almost a decade and left in good standing and left in good standing, and you were there for almost a decade.
Yeah, and and you had no idea.
Like, I like, like somebody could have asked them before all this happened and said, Hey, I bet your former pastor, you know, goes and talks to dozens of other pastors, and then those pastors put it in their blogs and in their.
Podcast to where thousands and tens of thousands of people are aware of the situation.
You could have told this member in our church that before it all happened, and he would have laughed at you and said, My former pastor would have never done that.
These guys would never do that.
These are good, strong, godly men.
They would never do that.
And sadly, boy, would he have been wrong.
He would have been wrong.
So Tobias reached out to me recently and, you know, still concerned because I'm not being hard enough.
What?
Okay, well, doing just one moment.
But concerned because I'm not being hard enough on this individual in our church.
And so I responded, again, trying to get peace and trying to bring some resolution and to assure him for his conscience.
I understand as a pastor, he's not a member of my church, but if there are people that I pastored for several years, and even if they're not a member of my church any longer, I still feel some sense of pastoral responsibility for them.
So I get that.
I'm sympathetic to that.
So I'm trying to reassure him.
And so I responded, I said, Tobias, I already had a virtual meeting for over two hours with you and all of your elders at your church.
I sat there quietly for the first hour, and then I responded clearly to every single one of your concerns.
And then I listed them out, including my answers.
Number one, no, we absolutely do not hate Jews.
Neither I, the church, the leaders, or this young man who's now a member of my church and used to be a member in your church.
No, we absolutely do not hate Jews.
Two, yes, we believe that Jews can be saved.
And there are some, there are some who actually have gone as far as to publicly say, Christians, that Jews cannot convert.
And we would say, Respectfully, you're wrong.
That is not biblical.
You cannot defend that biblically.
You can say that certain people groups, on the whole, in a general sense, not each and every individual, but certain people groups, on the whole, in particular times throughout the gospel age, throughout church history, have a particular unique hardness of heart towards the gospel and therefore are less likely to be saved, like the Jews at the time of Paul.
That's precisely why he became an apostle to the Gentiles, apart from, of course, The divine calling of God, calling him to be an apostle to the Gentiles.
But one of the ways that God called him away from the Jews to the Gentiles was providentially by hardening the hearts of the Jews.
That doesn't mean no Jews were saved.
We know that 3,000 were added to the faith at Pentecost with Peter.
And there's still, as Paul is going off and ministering to the Gentiles, there's still HQ right there in Jerusalem with Peter and James and John, the apostles, and many Jews are still being saved.
Now, what the Jews being saved at that time, you could liken it to a trickle.
With the Jews, but there is a trickle.
There's still a flow of people coming to the true Mount Zion, coming to Christ.
And whereas it's a waterfall, it's a surge among the Gentiles where Paul goes.
And so Paul talks about a partial hardness of heart for a time.
Now, for me, and this is just another thing that's helpful for us to address in this episode is, you know, for our church, just so that people are aware, I've pretty much always been, my just general disposition as a pastor and as a person is to be ecumenical, lowercase c Catholic.
So when it comes to baptism, pedo or credo baptism, I just, I'm not interested in having.
The arguments every five minutes about baptism.
I completely understand the Pado Baptist argument, and I am even open and have been actively searching for a qualified, solid, godly man who is Pado Baptist to be a co pastor or one of the elders with us at the church so that we could accommodate both positions a lowercase c baptismal Catholicity, so ecumenical, and so too on the Romans 11 Jewish issue of Israel.
So Michael, right now, is an elder candidate with our church, and Lord willing, will be ordained towards the end of this year.
And we disagree on this.
Michael, to be fair to Michael, he holds what I would happily admit is the lion's share view of the Puritans and the Reformers.
Meaning, what is that view?
Well, neither of us are dispensational.
That, I think, is too far and would be unhealthful.
That level of division would be unhelpful for a church.
So we're both Reformed, just like Credo Baptist Reformed versus Pado, like still within the ballpark of Reformed, but dispensational is not even close.
So Michael holds the view.
That there's no future land promises, physical promises in the future for Israel, but that there is a future spiritual promise that there will be a great revival for those who are Israel by the flesh, that they will come and become true Israel, be grafted into the true root, who is Christ, through faith, and that there'll be a great future revival among Israel.
Whereas I and other guys like Andrew Isker, you know, or the Ogden guys, Brian Sauvay and Eric Kahn, we would hold towards.
We would be of the persuasion of a partial preterist, preterist meaning past or fulfilled, hermeneutic applied to Romans 11, that Paul is saying that this time period where there's this partial hardening of the Jews was a short period of time and that it was during the interim period after the finished work of Christ and before 8070 and the destruction of the temple.
And so for approximately 40 years, there was a partial hardening on the Jews so that much more Gentiles were coming in and much fewer Jews.
But then leading up to 8070, and especially at 8070, That the Jewish people saw this great fulfillment to everything that Jesus said in Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, that not one stone of the temple would stand on another.
And they saw this as a very, you know, this generation did not pass away.
They saw it as a fulfillment to Christ's words.
And that the spiritual revival that Paul references for the Jewish people, according to the flesh in Romans 11, that spiritual revival was future for Paul at the time of his writing of Romans, probably around AD 55, but is actually in our distant past.
That happened in AD 70.
And so today, my position and others, Jim Jordan, James Jordan with the CREC.
This would be his position.
Most of us got it from him.
That's true.
But their position and my position is that there's no future land or physical promises for Israel, but there's also not a future spiritual promise for Israel because that actually has already been fulfilled.
And that today there are no promises left that the covenant is done and that even ethnically the waters have been muddied and that there are Christians in Palestine.
They can, you know, they can take DNA tests and match it up with 2,000 year old catacombs that have been found under Jerusalem and find that they actually have an even stronger match than some Ashkenazi Jews.
And so, you know, and then you've got the black Hebrew Israelites, which I think is ridiculous, you know, saying, We're the true Jews.
And then you've got some guys, Christian identity is what it's called.
And certain historic KKK members held to this view that, well, the lost 10 tribes, where did they disperse?
They dispersed above the Caucasus Mountains.
Hint, hint.
They became Caucasians, Europeans.
Turns out white people.
So black Hebrew Israelites or black people are the true Jews.
And there are some, not many, but some who believe white people are the true Israelites.
And then there's an argument to be made for Palestinians, not all of them, but some.
And then an argument to be made for.
And so my point is.
I think that ethnically and covenantally, and every other possible way that you could imagine, it's done.
So, the point is, you think that there's going to be a revival in our future?
I think that, just for the record, this nation state called Israel, whoever they are, it really doesn't matter.
It's still a legitimate nation state.
It has a right to defend itself, it shouldn't be wiped off of the map.
I think it was a bad idea to put them there geographically in the first place.
It's like putting a minnow in a tank of sharks.
I don't think that's a really good idea to drop it right there in the Middle East.
That's given us unceasing wars.
But what's done is done.
They're there.
I think that they deserve to defend themselves.
I wish them well.
I hope that they also don't absolutely exterminate other peoples.
I wish for peace in the Middle East.
I'm an American, so I'd like to stop seeing our tax dollars.
It's not our problem.
It's not our problem.
Leave it alone.
And whoever the modern state of Israel is, I'm not convinced that these are actual people with covenant or ethnic ties, for that matter, to Abraham, but they are a nation, right?
They're still a nation.
And so for me, my view is just in the great global post millennial hope.
All the nations are eventually going to be saved and flock to Mount Zion.
So I believe that Israel will be saved in the same way I believe Canada will and Brazil will and China will and everybody else.
So we both get to a future spiritual revival through different paths.
Yours is actually the more common view with Reformed history and Puritan history.
And my point in saying all this is you and I are able to still be friends and serve together in the same local church.
And neither of us have swastika tattoos.
That's right.
And neither of us are unhinged.
But also, neither of us find out about a man in our church sharing a Holocaust meme.
And then give him a 14 hour longhouse treatment and then excommunicate him and his wife and kids.
That's insane.
Absolutely insane.
So I said, back to this, and we'll go to our first commercial break.
But I said to Tobias, I already had a two hour virtual meeting with you and all of your elders.
We sat quietly for the first hour, listened to your concerns, and then I responded to them.
Number one, no, we absolutely do not hate all Jews.
Number two, yes, we believe that Jews can be saved.
And most, we believe, actually will be saved, not in a Romans 11 sense, speaking for myself, but through the end time promises of the great post millennial hope that eventually all the nations will flock to Mount Zion and be saved.
So we do believe that Jews can be converted.
Three, no, not all Jews are a part of some secret conspiracy or a global cabal.
Talmudic Judaism Critique00:05:09
Four, yes, I do believe that Talmudic Judaism is not only pernicious, but uniquely pernicious.
I believe that it is worse than Islam.
I believe it is worse than Buddhism, worse than Hinduism.
I would say worse than atheism, but I think it'd be redundant because I think atheism and Talmudic Judaism in many ways are one and the same.
I think secularism largely is a Jewish problem.
I really do.
And so, why do I think that Talmudic Judaism is more pernicious?
It's like, well, they're all false religions.
If you believe them, you're going to go to hell.
Yes and amen.
But there is a difference in an ideology and a religion and the way that.
Over centuries, it shapes a culture and a people when one of the religions esteems Christ, denies his deity.
And so it is heretical and absolutely a false religion.
But it esteems Christ as a prophet and a relatively good man, Islam.
And even Buddhism, for that matter.
Virtually every world religion except one.
Whereas Talmudic Judaism does not esteem Christ as a prophet, but says that he should be boiling in human excrement and that he is boiling.
In hell, in human excrement.
Those two worldviews, particularly in their view of the person and work of Christ, are going to have both negative effects, but not to the same degree.
One is going to deny Christ's deity, in which there is no gospel and no hope, and every man is dead in his sins.
That's going to have horrible, global negative effects.
Islam, Buddhism.
But another one says not only are you still dead in your sins, and not only is Jesus not God, but Jesus is one of the most sinister human beings to ever walk.
The face of the planet.
That one, I believe, is going to have far worse effects.
Okay, so that was number four.
Number five yes, this ideology or religion, speaking of Talmudic Judaism, can and sometimes does have an effect on even those who do not practice Judaism.
Because that was another question that he asked.
He was like, well, so few people are actually Orthodox Jews and are actually practicing.
You know, so many people in Israel are completely secular.
And I was like, well, brother, that's kind of my point that you're separating these things as though there's no correlation between the two.
No, no, this is what Talmudic Judaism does.
What it does is it gets you where Israel, our greatest ally, where's the largest gay pride parade in the entire world?
Yep.
Year after year?
Israel.
Tel Aviv.
Israel.
Yeah.
And so I said, yeah, they're not all practicing, but this ideologieslash religion can and sometimes does have an effect on even those who do not practice Judaism, the culture and the nation as a whole.
Number six, yes, Hitler was a bad guy and he was not.
A Christian prince.
Number seven, yes, many Jews died in camps in World War II, although I personally do not have a position on the exact number.
And if I ever get around between being a pastor and president of Right Response Ministries and a husband and a father, if I ever have a spare 10,000 hours to speak credibly on the topic, then I'll give you a number.
Until then, I'm not going to say, well, it was for sure six million.
I'm not going to do that because they've lied about everything.
And when I say they, I don't mean Jews, I mean Everybody, all of our institutions, every credible authority has lied about everything.
So I'm not going to just say, oh, yes, sir, you say six million.
That's what the mainline consensus is.
It's six million.
So I'm not going to say it's six million.
At the same time, I'm also not going to give another number.
I'm just going to say, I don't know.
I don't know.
And fortunately, in terms of knowledge of historical events, from what I can tell, maybe I've just been missing the gospel all these years as a pastor, no less.
But from what I can tell, the historical events that you need to know actually happen and have faith in in order to have faith in order to have faith.
Standing in Christ Church were the historical events that happened 80 years ago and the exact number of Jews that were killed in the Holocaust.
No, maybe it's the historical events like six literal day creation, Adam and Eve as actual individual people, the life and death and burial and resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Those are the things I know a global flood.
Those are the historical events that I have no question about that I have spent 10,000 hours studying the Bible that I have full faith in and that I teach with credibility and with knowledge from the pulpit.
I'm not going to teach World War II history.
As someone who is not experienced enough on the matter, I also am not going to just hook, line, and sinker believe everything that the guys who have been introducing all the weak gods and global homo jihad for the last 80 years, I'm not going to believe their take on it either.
So I'm going to say, I don't know.
And I think that's the difference at the end of the day.
That's the difference between me and some of these young men.
They're saying, I know these guys, they've lied about everything, they must be lying about this too.
And so therefore, the exact opposite is the truth.
That's the difference, I'm saying, yeah, I know they're lying also.
But that doesn't make the exact opposite the truth.
Right.
I think that the Nazis really were bad guys.
Yes, Hitler used Christian rhetoric.
Magical Soil and Hitler00:02:11
He did.
But Hitler was, it is documented, some of his infatuation with the occult.
And apart from that, because these things could be manufactured and lies, I understand.
But apart from that, from the little bit of study that I have done, the Third Reich and Germany.
Was much more likened to like an old paganism, like Nordic kind of, like even the blood and soil.
So I hold to blood and soil, but not like Hitler did.
So I hold to blood and soil insofar as blood means people and soil means place, aka what even JD Vance said recently people won't defend a set of propositions or an economic zone, but they'll defend a home.
And a home is people and place.
You can't have a country without it.
So America is a people in a particular place.
And it doesn't, that particular people is not 100% white people, but it is heritage America.
And it's not people who have nothing in common with us, no desire to assimilate, and have come in by the millions just in the last three and a half years.
It's not those people.
It's not.
So it is people in place.
But what Hitler meant by blood and soil is he actually meant the Aryan race.
And the little bit that I have read in his own words, that they were actually objectively superior because there was something magical, like this kind of this magical.
And that's why I say pagan, kind of old gods.
Poseidon, you know, having power over the sea.
There was something magical about the place of Germany that produced, it was superior soil, a superior, fertile soil, the fatherland, the country.
It was a magical place that produced a superior people, genetically superior people.
I don't believe that.
I don't believe that.
And so my point is I don't think the solution, the post war consensus has to die.
It has to die.
I don't think the solution is to lionize Hitler.
I don't think the solution is to lionize Hitler.
But I also know the solution is not to demonize every young man who's asking some questions for good reason.
Washing in the Word00:03:00
Especially pastors.
If that young man comes to you privately, don't go and tell dozens of other pastors who are then going to write blogs about it and do podcasts about it.
Shame on you.
Okay, let's go to our first commercial and we'll come back.
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All right, we're back.
So, as pastorally as I'm dealing with this, just I'm trying to give some counsel to other pastors, you know, and to church members.
Which is why we're doing this episode.
That's why we're doing this episode.
Yep.
So, what do you do with this issue, right?
Bonhoeffer and Malice00:15:48
You've got, you know, most of the voices are basically saying, you know, you cut them off, you cast them into a dark, shadowy pit and never speak to them again.
Right.
You know, and I'm saying maybe that's not the most pastoral, Christ honoring way to deal with it.
So what I did was number one, you deal with it privately because all this was supposed to be private.
It became very public because this young man was foolish and made it public.
No, because these pastors were foolish.
And made it public because these pastors have been sounding the alarm about the danger of Nazism in the Reformed Church, and they needed an example to substantiate it.
And Tobias sadly gave them.
He put the chum out in the water, and the sharks couldn't help themselves and picked it up.
It's like, we got one meme, one example, and so we're going to run with it.
But if that hadn't happened, if it hadn't been on the pastors, then just this individual church member, nobody would have ever known about it.
And him and I were handling it privately because it was a private affair.
He shared it privately to people.
So here's some of the questions I asked him Do you hate all Jewish people?
And he said, No.
I said, Do you believe that Jews today, those who call themselves Jews, do you believe that there is, in a corporate sense, just like Paul said, all Cretans are liars and lazy gluttons?
And this is true.
This comes from one of their own.
His testimony is true.
But then, Paul, I mean, here's the thing you got to finish the other half of the equation.
He left Timothy in Crete.
Right.
Because he expected to get fruit there.
Yep.
So he's saying these are, this, this is, uh, this is tough ground.
Not all soil is equally fertile.
Yep.
But that doesn't mean that, so there's some soil, right?
Jesus tells the parables of the four soils.
Some is a path, and the birds of the air, that's the enemy, snatches it away.
Some, it's the cares of this life, like thorns, choke it out.
And then some, it's shallow topsoil, you know, and it's rock right underneath.
And so it springs up quickly because the roots can't push down.
So then the stems push up and exponentially quickly.
But then the sun comes out, that sun represents suffering.
So the thorns, cares of this life, the birds, that's the enemy, stealing it away with false doctrine, false teaching.
And then the sun represents difficulties and suffering for those who sprung up quickly, but then they can't stand the suffering and they apostatize and leave the faith.
But then there's good soil.
Now, here's the deal that's the fourth soil, the good soil.
But within that, and I don't think this is twisting the parable, I think it's absolutely true using what I just said about Paul and his reference to Cretans, or what Paul said about his own people, according to the flesh, his own kinsmen, saying, This is why I'm going to the Gentiles, because there's a partial hardening on these people.
So my point is, among the good soil, even among the good soil, there is a sliding scale.
Some of the good soil is richer than others.
Some is softer than others.
Some is more fertile than others.
And so I said, Do you believe that, do you hate all Jews?
No.
Do you believe that Jews can be converted?
And he gave me that, essentially that answer.
He said, I think it's hard, but yes.
I think that certain people are more ripe.
There are different seasons within this gospel age where certain peoples may be more ripe in the province of God at a particular time for a gospel harvest than others.
That's undeniably true, by the way.
Of course it is.
Yeah.
That's not anti Semitic.
You're talking about a particular people.
Who hate Jesus.
And there are lots of people who hate Jesus.
I'm aware of that.
But not all people hate Jesus to the degree of crafting a sacred text that says Jesus is burning an excrement, boiling an excrement.
I mean, that's a special hatred of Jesus.
So that was his answer to that.
It's a perfectly reasonable answer.
I said, Do you believe, because he's postmillennial, I said, Do you believe that eventually, in line with the great postmillennial hope, that these people, whether they have ethnic ties to Abraham or not, whether the covenant is fully ended or not, whether there's some adjacent Halfway covenant of the covenant of Hagar or not, or whether there's no covenant, I'm of the persuasion, no covenant, just the new covenant, you have to be in Christ for that through faith.
Do you still believe that they can be converted and eventually the soil will be softened as a post millennial?
Because I was testing all that.
That one he wouldn't have to affirm to be a member in our church, right?
Because post millennialism is not necessary, it's not a top tier issue.
You can be all millennial or historic, pre millennial, and still be orthodox.
But I wanted to, I know he's post millennial, so pastorally I was testing it.
I wanted to see.
Because that could maybe reveal bias in his heart, that maybe there is an animosity, an anger, bitterness towards Jewish people.
And he said, Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, they're a legitimate nation, whether they have ethnic ties or not.
They still are a nation, just like Brazil is a nation and China is a nation.
And I believe all the nations of the earth will eventually flock to Mount Zion.
So, not in a Romans 11 sense, but in a post millennial sense, like Isaiah speaks to.
Yeah, I believe that the vast majority of Israel, modern Israel, will eventually be saved.
Leading up to a great golden age of a post millennial eschatology.
I was like, great, sounds good.
I said, do you believe that Jews have been disproportional in very negative, influential ways, not only in their own nation, but in the West and in our nation, like pornography, the porn industry, or AIPAC, you know, an AIPAC handler for every single Democrat?
He's like, yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's been terrible.
I said, great, because it's factually true.
Yeah.
You just, you know, that was a trick question.
You answered correctly.
Yeah, it's true.
And then, but then further, I set that up as a platform and said, and so therefore, do you believe that every Jew is uniquely pernicious?
And I was like, no, of course not.
And so, anyway, so we went through all of this.
And I was like, if you found out that your neighbor was, you know, a Jew, would you be neighborly towards them if they asked you to watch their dog and they were going on vacation?
Would you kill their dog?
You know, would you become a Haitian all of a sudden and try to eat it?
You know, would you evangelize your neighbor and share the gospel with them?
He was like, of course, Joel.
Like, what do we.
And you could tell on his face.
And so then I just, I was like, that's enough.
I don't want to disparage this young man.
He's fine.
And sadly, his former pastor has lost his mind.
And so, a tragedy.
But yeah, was he asking serious questions?
Yes.
Was he coming to some conclusions that I deny?
Yes.
Because for a moment there, he was like, man, I think Hitler probably was a Christian.
And I was like, I don't think so.
And let me show you why.
At the end of the day, though, here's the deal the history of what happened 80 years ago is not necessary for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.
That's right.
So we actually can disagree.
And I know that sounds crazy to people.
I know even as the words, most of you are probably like, man, Joel sounded really reasonable up until this point, but now it's like, ah, you know, so you're saying that somebody could believe that Hitler was a Christian?
Yeah, in the same way that you could believe that Bonhoeffer was a Christian.
Bonhoeffer was a known heretic.
Right.
A known heretic.
Right.
And yet there are plenty of pastors.
I mean, there's even a group, I forget who it is.
It might be Ligonier.
I hate to pick on them again if it's not, but a well known reformed group that's doing a whole documentary called Bonhoeffer.
Or I think it's Netflix, actually.
I think Netflix is it's it's uh checks out.
We call it boomer fuel.
It's like you know, every night, a movie on Reagan and then a movie on Bonhoeffer.
He's Christian and he hates Hitler.
Beautiful, you know, that's I mean, every boomer in the world is going to watch that.
That's a good call on whoever's putting this documentary out because it will get views.
Um, but Bonhoeffer uh was terrible, he was terrible.
Uh, Martin Luther King Jr., there are people in our church, oh, yeah, absolutely, who still have not red pilled on Martin Luther King Jr., they don't know all the history and they think that he was a good Christian man, that he was a good Christian pastor, and that he's in heaven right now.
I'm not excommunicating them.
Right.
But the reality is that Martin Luther King Jr., Michael was his actual name.
He changed it.
But Michael King was having an orgy two days before he was killed and was a Marxist and was a heretic that denied the Trinity.
So, no, he was not a good guy.
And from what we know, he's in hell right now.
And so the point is, you know, on that one, you know, we didn't see eye to eye on some of the history.
It's like, well, I still think he was better than you think, you know, and I think it was less malice towards the Jews and it was more.
Like what Darrell Cooper said, that a lot of people got upset about.
You know, that like, well, Hitler, you know, he bit off more than he could chew.
They invaded Poland.
And then, you know, Churchill, you know, who I don't think was the chief villain, I think that was too far, but he was certainly a warmonger, certainly a warmonger.
And he was certainly a known by his own words, written, documented white supremacist.
Churchill, he loved him some white folk.
I'll say that.
Churchill did not like black people.
Churchill didn't really like Jews either until, in my opinion, I think they might have paid off his debt.
And I think that's part of what got him back in the war.
I don't know who paid off the debt, but the dude was bankrupt.
And all of a sudden, he's doing great financially.
And that is curious.
And so, anyways, but he cut off all the trade.
And so, Germany's starving and they've invaded Poland now.
And so they have all these camps and prisoners of war and they can't feed their own people.
But that's what Darrell Cooper said.
That's not necessarily my opinion.
Again, see what I've already said.
I need to do 10,000 hours and then I'll give you an opinion.
And I'm probably not going to do the 10,000 hours anytime soon.
But this young man in my church, he was leaning more towards that.
He was saying, look, in war times, it's war measures.
I mean, even in America, we had concentration camps.
And guess what?
It wasn't just Japanese people.
There were a lot of people who, turns out, in the final analysis, were not Japanese.
They were Chinese or they were Korean and they went into camp.
You know why?
I'm just going to be, I'm not trying to be mean, but because we thought they looked the same.
That's right.
Because white people thought that all Asians looked the same.
And it's like, well, but why didn't you check their birth certificate?
When you're at war, people can forge documents.
That's the whole thing you're trying to guard against secret agents and double agents and all these kinds of things.
So you're in the middle of war.
And so you have.
Camps now, and there were atrocities that we did.
Now, not on the same level of what's done in Germany, but our people weren't starving.
We were separated.
We had the luxury of being separated by an ocean.
That's part of the reason why economically we're so far ahead.
All of Europe had to rebuild itself, it was in ruins, and America just went into the stratosphere economically.
So there are some legitimate things to consider.
Here's the deal I still think that Hitler hated Jews.
So I think it was all those things.
Plus, I think he actually hated Jews.
That's my view.
But this young man, Was like, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
I'm not persuaded.
And so I said, Well, okay.
Pray about it, read about it, think about it.
Don't make this the end all be all issue.
That's a very important point.
If you could, please don't be the Hitler advocate at church with every member.
That's right.
Every new guest.
And he has every new guest.
Hi, welcome to Covenant Bible Church.
I really like Hitler.
Can I talk to you about him?
Like, please don't do that.
You know, please don't be an idiot.
And guess what?
He's a mature young man and he hasn't done that.
Yeah.
And so he's, you know, there's a couple other guys who are looking, you know, in our church who are looking into World War II history and they want to know and they're fascinated.
And every now and then they come to me with their findings.
And if their findings are absolutely crazy, where it's like, okay, we're thinking about swastika tattoos, then I talk them off the ledge and I'm being facetious.
None of them have even gotten close to that far.
None of them have gotten that far.
Our church is not that crazy.
We're not.
And so, you know, but they're, but they are having some.
And if you're wondering, well, what do you mean serious conversations and what?
Watch the interview with Daryl Cooper on Tucker Carlson.
It's basically that.
And here's the deal that interview with Daryl Cooper was milquetoast.
It was not controversial.
That's Pat Buchanan.
It wasn't controversial 15 years ago.
It wasn't controversial 15 years ago.
That's what that was.
So back to the meme.
The thing I saw in the chat was, well, is it appropriate to share this as though it's funny?
That was one of the things that was raised by this former pastor and saying, well, you're still mocking.
Okay, so you don't hate Jews, but by sharing this meme, and again, But he only shared it with two people privately.
But still, sharing it at all, this was the argument of the former pastor, sharing it privately, even, you are mocking all the loved ones and descendants, Jewish descendants of those who died in the Holocaust.
You're mocking the loss of their loved ones.
And so I asked this member of my church again, doing my pastoral duty, I said, Are you mocking them?
And if so, could you tell your former pastor and say, You're right.
I'm sorry.
I won't do that again?
And he told me, He said, Joel, I'm not mocking them.
He said, Joel, you have to realize I know I could be wrong.
I know I could be wrong, and I'm not publicly talking about this.
I privately tweeted it.
My pastor's the one who made it public.
Didn't tweet it.
Didn't tweet it.
Or I'm sorry, I privately texted it.
Thank you.
My pastor's the one who made it public.
I'm not publicly talking about this.
So I am keeping it private because I understand that these are controversial things.
But Joel, as of now, right now, the position that I'm holding is that I do believe that there were Jews who were rounded up.
I don't think it was 6 million, but I think that there were a lot of Jews that were rounded up.
I don't think it was all malice.
But many of them still died by starvation or by this or by that, and these other memes.
And for any of them that were not Bolsheviks and were not communists and were not trying to destroy Germany without any legitimate cause, in other words, any who suffered innocently, especially the women and children, is what he said.
He said, I feel awful, awful.
And that was not what I was conveying in sharing the meme.
He said, I wasn't trying to mock the loved ones of the victims.
He said, What I'm doing in sharing the meme was the purpose of the meme is I'm mocking the history, not the people.
But I'm mocking the history because, Joel, right now I could be wrong.
I recognize I could be wrong.
But as it stands right now, I'm mocking a historical narrative that I don't believe happened.
Right.
Or at least not anywhere near the way that the mainline history says it happened.
So then I have to come pastorally to a conclusion.
Every man in my church who has a suspicion that 9 11 was an inside job, right?
Excommunication, right?
Every man in my church who sides with the Union and the North.
On the Civil War.
Excommunicated.
Every man of God, like, what are we doing now?
The last time I checked, we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Yep.
And not holding to a particular historic view on World War II alone.
Yep.
That's what this comes down to.
Now, aside from the history, is there a way of having malice in your heart towards a certain?
Yeah, but those are the pastoral questions we ask.
And the assurances.
Here's the deal we don't exercise the keys of the kingdom, excommunication is a big deal.
We don't exercise the keys of the kingdom based off of a hunch.
So, what all I can do pastorally is I can sit down and I can ask questions.
But if I have a young man who says, No, I don't hate Jews.
Yes, I do believe they can be converted.
Yes, if my next door neighbor was one, I'd share with him the gospel and tell him to repent of his sins and turn in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Okay.
There are a few other questions.
I'm not going to do it again.
I've already addressed it.
But there were a few other questions, and we had multiple meetings.
But at the end of the day, it's like, Okay, you're good.
You're good.
You're a member in good standing in our church, and our church is honored to have you.
And so then, since then, I wish it wasn't this way, but I've had to.
So now I'm standing in between him and these other pastors.
And I'm saying, you know what?
You don't need telling these pastors.
No, you're done talking to him.
He's a member of my church.
You're done.
Church Discipline Solutions00:03:30
No more abusing him.
No more disparaging him.
No more exasperating him.
You can talk to me if you want, and I'm willing to talk if there's something else that we missed.
Right.
But I've already given you these answers.
I already did this Zoom call.
I think by God's grace, you need to ask that God would save you from boomer brain.
Right.
Because you've got a real bad case.
Okay.
What do you think, Michael?
Well, here's the thing is when you look at the history of church discipline, the sad thing about this particular situation is I'm convinced that one of the reasons the Western church is in the situation that it's in is because we have abandoned.
Proper church discipline.
And when you look through history, the patristic era, there was a lot of church discipline over false belief.
They were still figuring out the doctrines of Christ, of salvation, of the doctrine of God and the hypostatic union.
And there were many people who were actually excommunicated over false doctrine, over the primary doctrines.
There were also people who were excommunicated for pinching the incense to Caesar, offering the worship to Caesar.
It's due only to the one true God.
But historically, as I was preparing for this episode, what I found was this is not my idea.
But there's a direct correlation between the doctrine of confession to a priest that the Catholic Church developed coming out of the patristic period, and they removed actual excommunication as a tool and a discipline.
And so now your discipline, your church keys of the kingdom, as it were, were the priest prescribing you so many penances.
Right.
Yep.
And so for a very long time, the medieval period, church discipline really kind of fell out of fashion, quote unquote, in the church.
And it was the Reformation.
That brought it back.
Now, Calvin and Geneva, they were pretty, in some cases, heavy handed with their church discipline.
But this goes to the point that we've made many times on this show, Joel.
It's your point.
I think it was necessary, right?
They were trying to fashion a Christian society.
Right.
And they had very clear, in my opinion, biblical guidelines.
And the things that they disciplined people for in Geneva were theological error, rampant heresy, and external verifiable.
Public sin, like adultery, like public brawling and fighting, right?
Like usury, that sort of thing.
You don't see, at least from the research I did, church discipline, excommunication for a private view or a historical view, or even a comment that you may have made that was out of bad taste or off color or something like that, right?
Even the American history, the Baptists from the, I forget what time period I wrote it down, 1781 to 1860.
It's estimated that the Baptists were excommunicating up to 2% of their church members a year.
Right.
And so, my point is this church discipline actually, I think, is part of the solution.
We need the stomach for revival.
We're going to have to kick some people out of churches when God grants repentance.
Right.
Right.
They are not welcome in the church of Christ if they are going to name as good homosexuality or transgenders or any of these things.
Right.
They have to go.
They have, they could repent.
That was always offered.
Right.
Right.
Private Family Banking00:02:29
It was always offered.
But if they don't repent.
But if they do not repent.
And so the irony is the tool that we need and the tool that we have failed the soft, seeker sensitive churches, the evangelical church for a long time in general has abandoned.
That's the tool we need.
Except now in this situation, sadly, it's being applied to historical orthodoxy.
And it just goes, and there's a bit of irony here that I won't go into, but it goes to what Doug Wilson has said for a long time every church has an orthodoxy.
Every single church has a reason that they will kick you out for it.
Right.
Right.
And in this case, it just happens to be don't question the post war sentiment.
You're right.
By golly.
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Handling Pastoral Questions00:14:24
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All right, we're back.
Shout out real quick to a couple guys in the chat.
One, Carl Anderson.
I just want to say I'm grateful for you.
It shouldn't have been this big of a deal, but it was for me because we've gotten so much pushback over this.
But this is Carl Anderson.
He wrote this Boomer Brain.
So I said that earlier in the show, and he's like, Boomer Brain!
Again, again, again, again.
He says, Oh, my, I am offended.
Changing my depends now.
How dare you bring it, brother?
And then he said, Just kidding.
Enjoy your work from old reformer, reformed boomer.
Good on you.
And the fifth commandment is real.
We want to honor our fathers.
The ability for you to say, Yeah, boomer brain, that's a good one.
I know what he means.
And for you to recognize everything he's talking about is the exact same way that I think.
I agree with him.
So obviously, I don't have a boomer brain.
So, yes, I am a boomer, but he's not talking about me.
And if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear it.
And here you have, you know, Anderson in the chat saying, I know he's not talking about me.
I'm not going to get offended.
And I'm able to hear what he's saying.
And the young whippersnapper, God bless him.
You know, I'm in your corner.
So we love our boomers.
We really, really do.
I think on the whole, that generation has caused a lot, a lot of pain and a lot of heartache.
But that doesn't mean each and every individual person.
It never meant that.
Back to the whole point.
We have to be able to speak.
It sounds similar.
Yeah, we have to be able to speak in generalities.
We have to be able to speak in categories.
We need to be able to do this.
So, one more thing here at the end of the show, guys, help us out.
This is an important one.
It is, because everybody's wondering about how to address this situation and to be able to address it pastorally, Christianly.
And you guys know that it's like you've got the Adolf Hitler is the last Christian prince, you know, realm.
And then you've got the.
We're going to disparage anybody and everybody who even has a few questions about World War II realm.
And there's not a lot of guys saying the things that we said today who are able to navigate this and not just navigate it from a historic standpoint.
That wasn't our point, but pastorally.
This is how to handle this pastorally.
And so this video needs to be seen by, I think, tens of thousands of people.
Especially pastors.
You need to see this one, especially pastors.
So please help us.
You guys, seriously, don't tune me out right now.
Please listen.
You can help me right now make sure that maybe your pastor actually sees this simply by giving us a thumbs up.
Right now, I'm looking at it.
I'm not going to stop saying it until I see you do it.
Thumbs up right now in the chat.
Everybody, let's get thumbs up.
There are 192 people currently watching.
We've got 78 thumbs up.
I want to see 100 more thumbs up right now.
If you can help me out, please give us a thumbs up.
This is why, because it triggers the algorithm, it gets it out to more people.
People need to see this conversation, not because it's Joel.
That's not the point.
But I don't know if there were a bunch of other people having this conversation, then I would share them and I'd say, hey, thumbs up their video.
And then I would share them on X and I'd share them on YouTube.
I don't know hardly anyone who has had as detailed of the conversation we just had today.
I don't know one piece.
I listen to a lot of podcasts and I'm friends with a lot of guys, a lot of the best guys, the good guys.
And I don't think there's one piece of content that has handled the situation the way we did today.
Please help us out.
More thumbs up.
We just went from 72 to 94.
You guys are doing it.
Michael's right there in the chat, giving so many thumbs up.
It's unstoppable.
Thumbs up in the chat, but also like the video.
Not just in the chat, like the video, like the video, like the video, like the video.
Thank you guys.
Seriously.
And for the low price of $29.99.
What's getting?
Feel the price of Telethon here.
Well, what you can do though is I will say this because this is coming out on Friday anyway, so it's only 48 hours away now, which is crazy.
But.
The Friday special, season four.
We've kind of been in this off in between for a while now.
So, first season was Boniface Option.
It was me, AD, and AD Robles, and Andrew Whisker.
Then we had Haunted Cosmos with Brian and Ben.
And then we did that, that was season two.
Then, season three was the guys from Coltish, Andrew and Jeremiah.
And then, season four, it starts this Friday because it's Q4, and this is going to be the first Friday of October.
And it's a nine part series, it's like seven hours of content, nine part series, each episode being about 45 minutes on.
Israel.
The whole thing's on Israel.
And the guest is Nick Fuentes.
No, I'm just kidding.
The guest.
Some people will be like, yeah.
And others would be like, no.
No, it's not Nick Fuentes.
Honestly, I don't think I've ever listened to anything by Nick Fuentes.
I think I've heard some clips.
So I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, he's terrible.
I've never listened to anything by him.
But from the little bit that I do know, I just don't think he's a strong Christian.
And certainly not.
I don't think he's.
How should I say, robust in the theological department?
And we tend to want to have guys who can look at history and look at culture, but also through a robust theological lens.
And so, from the little bit that I know about him, I don't think he would fit the bill.
So, the guest is not Nick Fuentes.
The guest is Andrew Risker.
He's working on a book right now.
It's going to be coming out very soon.
The final manuscript is being edited.
He's publishing it again through Gab with Andrew Torba, who is a brother in Christ that we love.
And Just like he did with Boniface Option, that was published through Gap.
And so the book's going to be coming out soon, and we did a corresponding series with it.
And here's the deal the series, it's much to our opponents' chagrin, it is not unhinged.
They will not be able to hang us on one single thing.
Right, they won't, um, because everything we said is true, and primarily what we did was exegesis it's nine parts covering uh, Ephesians, Romans, Hebrews, Acts, going text by text and showing the partial preterist view the view that that him and I would hold of Romans 11 and saying this is covenantally what's going on, ethnically what's going on, and most importantly, biblically what's going on,
and this is the way that we should view Israel, and the reason why it's pertinent.
You know, some things you just can't time.
Sometimes God's prophet is just beyond what you would even foresee or what you would even personally wish for.
But here we are, shots fired, liberal shots fired from Lebanon to Israel.
And it seems a little suspicious whether or not the Iron Dome fully held up some of those shots.
And we know that there will be a retaliation.
My prayer is that they won't just level, that it won't be nuclear, they won't level an entire country.
Because Israel.
I wouldn't put it past them to do that.
You already see all the neocons on X saying, there is no response that's not merited after this.
Basically, what they're saying is, I mean, Dick Cheney from the grave is like, yes, war.
And we don't want that.
But the point is, there's a lot going on and it's going on right now.
And it just ramped up.
And in the problems of God, God would have it that this series is dropping on Friday.
We had already planned this conversation and this series is dropping on Friday.
And why does it matter?
Because bad ideas have consequences.
And guess what?
Bad theology has consequences.
And I absolutely believe that we have had 80 years of conflict, global conflict, billions, if not trillions, if you add it all up, trillions of dollars, hundreds of thousands, arguably millions of lives lost.
And all of it largely due, not just to, well, that's just geopolitical, no, largely due to bad theology.
And yes, I'm talking about dispensationalism.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Israel would not have been, they never would have been reinstituted as a nation state there.
They could have had land.
There were all offers in other places.
Right.
But there, in the seat of endless war, there, that never would have happened without the West's help.
And the West would have never done it if the West wasn't largely Christian with bad biblical theology and thinking, we've got to usher in the third temple and we've got to, you know, that was bad theology.
That is why, why, How come my son might get drafted to World War III?
Dispensationalism.
My son just turned 18, just registered for the Selective Service.
This is reality in my family.
This is reality last week.
You cannot hate dispensationalism enough.
You really can't.
You cannot hate it enough.
We're talking about World War III.
We're talking about your taxes.
How come I don't have enough money left over with my check after all the taxes?
Dispensationalism is part of that.
Not saying it's all of it, but that's part of it.
Bad theology has consequences.
So that starts at 4 p.m. Central Time.
And that's going to be season four of the Friday special, nine part series with Andrew Isker.
And you'll find out some more information about that.
We've got some announcements that will be dropping in that episode that are important.
Like I already said with the conference, Jeff Durbin is out.
We love Apologia, love James White, love Jeff Durbin.
That's his prerogative to do so.
They're always warmly invited to have, if he last minute wanted to come back in, I would welcome him back in and we could.
Have a panel discussion with me and him and Stephen Wolf.
But we respect his decision.
Jeff Durbin is faithful.
Honestly, Jeff Durbin, I think he's at a point in his ministry, and this is only to honor him.
I think he's at a point in his ministry where he just wants to preach hour and a half sermons and save babies.
Yeah.
And that's about it.
And you know what?
Kudos, brother.
Well done.
So, but that opens up a couple slots, and we've got, I can't announce it yet because it's not confirmed.
There's still some question marks, but I'll just say this we're shooting for the stars.
We might have some surprising guests coming.
Uh, to the conference, uh, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th.
So go to rightresponseconference.com to register, rightresponseconference.com to register.
And uh, last thing I want to say, give us some more thumbs up, guys.
Help the algorithm, help this video get out.
Come on, come on, come on.
Um, but he means like the video, not like the video, thumbs up, not in the chat, but like the video, like the video.
Um, and then the last thing I wanted to say is, uh, guys, truly, from the bottom of our hearts, we cannot express this enough.
We were Flabbergasted and completely blown away.
The last two weeks, we mentioned at the end of each episode that we have come up to a cliff.
We're between a rock and a hard place financially right now as a ministry.
And some of the needs that we need to continue going and to take it exponentially, not just from like level three to level four, but like to level 10.
Like exponentially increase what we're trying to do.
I can't even tell you, I will eventually tell you.
Some of the things I could probably never tell you, but some of the ambitions and dreams that we have right now, we've just recently, you and me and Wes and Nathan, the goals that we have for this little ministry are insane.
Things that nobody else is doing.
But we can't get there and we can't even quite continue what we're already doing without financial help.
Yeah, we have sponsors, but we do sponsors because we're post millennial and we believe in all of Christ for all of life and we want to partner with Christian businesses.
We're not doing it because we're raking in the dough.
Our sponsors pay us.
But at the end of the day, all of our sponsors combined doesn't even cover Nathan's salary.
And Nathan is not making millions of dollars.
He has just a salary that's enough to be a livable wage for his family.
And so the biggest thing is yeah, we have sponsors and yeah, we're doing a conference.
But the biggest thing is right response ministries.
At the end of the day, we are still a ministry.
And we never talk about donations until the last two weeks.
I don't like it.
I don't want to talk about it.
And so we never talk about it.
But I, you know, I've had some good counsel from friends and say, Joel, we're a ministry.
You've got to mention donations.
Ligonier, my goodness.
Like, I one time gave a one time, like $10 gift to Ligonier to get a book.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And that was like seven years ago.
And I still get like two or three emails every single day from Ligonier.
And in most of those emails, them asking for financial support.
And It's, yeah, it can be insufferable at times.
I think there's a way to overdo it, but it's not inherently wrong.
It is not inherently wrong for a ministry that is biblically based.
Yeah, but you're talking about politics.
Selling Out Church Men00:10:21
Uh huh.
From the Bible.
Right.
You're talking about the culture war.
Uh huh.
Which is the outflow of a spiritual war.
And we're addressing it from the Bible.
This is a ministry.
And ministries, I feel like the Apostle Paul, you know, is it wrong for me to reap some kind of material harvest?
So if you're sitting here, all you guys, I get your emails all the time.
I don't have.
A solid church.
I wish I had a pastor like you.
And like, okay, well, I'm doing this content in addition to being a husband and a father and pastoring a local church.
And I'm doing it for you because I recognize there are displaced Christians all over our country and all over the world.
And that pastors have utterly failed.
I get that.
You're right.
You're right.
And so I'm trying to pick up some of the slack during this interim period as you're trying to find a godly church or someone plant in your area a godly church or make enough money to where you can move out of your area to a godly church.
But in the meantime, is it too much, as the Apostle Paul would have said, to ask if we're sharing with you this spiritual harvest to ask for some material gain?
So we did that the last two weeks.
We asked for donations.
You can go to rightresponsedonate.com.
Is it?
No.
Rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.
Rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.
So we did a big ask the last two weeks.
And before that, it'd probably been a year since we've talked about a donation.
And you guys gave.
Yeah.
Tremendously.
We still have needs.
So I don't want to say, and so now, never give again.
You know, we still have needs.
Yeah.
It didn't meet all the needs because we have some Mondo needs, because we have some Mondo vision.
But you guys gave a lot and it blew us away.
And so please give.
But more importantly than that, I just wanted to say thank you.
Yep.
Thank you.
You blew me away.
From the bottom of my heart, I am so grateful.
Thank you guys.
All right.
Any final thoughts, Michael?
This is just for pastors.
If you're a pastor and you've made it this far, The reason I attend the church that I attend now is because I received more pastoral counsel and an email from Joel than I had received from a church that wouldn't sign a vaccine exemption card for me and my wife.
And so, my point is this you do not have to agree with the young men in your church.
You don't have to even be comfortable with some of the things they're asking and questioning.
But, number one, take them seriously, treat them like men.
Number two, listen to them.
Okay, they're probably not idiots.
Right.
Right.
And number three, it's your job to pastor them, not to just denigrate them and put them down and call them idiots or call them silly or call them hateful.
Right.
Pastor your people, pastor your young men.
This time that we're living in, in history, right, we hope we're on the cusp of God doing a great work.
And if he's going to, it's going to be because young men, Who did not inherit the weakness that I'm in my 40s, right?
I feel like I'm behind the eight ball, but my son is not.
He's learning courage from a young age that I never learned, right?
Not to say that my parents taught me the Bible growing up, but there's different things that our young men are learning now.
And for a slightly older guy like myself, there's honestly a bit of man, I wish I had had that.
I wish I was willing to question that at 18, and I'm still scared to question it at 43, right?
Resist that.
Pastor your young men.
Encourage them to pursue truth in all things, to pursue the Lord, and to be vigorous in defending their faith, their family, and their nation.
Amen.
Amen.
Yeah, we gained a lot of, Michael, you were one of them, but there was a lot of people that we gained in our church simply for this one reason, and it's pathetic, it's sad.
But they asked their pastor, Could you please sign an exemption?
I don't want to put a foreign substance into my body, but I have to also put food on the table for my wife and kids.
I've written the letter.
You don't even have to write it.
I've written the letter.
Feel free to edit it according to your conscience.
But would you please sign this for my employer so that I don't have to get a foreign substance in my veins or lose my job?
And their pastor said no.
And it went against my conscience to do that for people outside that I wasn't their pastor to do it.
But I looked at the church at large and I realized this is just an epidemic failure of pastors.
And so I saw a bunch of sheep without a shepherd.
I saw a crown in the gutter that nobody wanted, and I was willing to pick it up.
And so I started, I wrote it, I put it publicly on our church's website, the letter.
And I told everyone, please email me and get my permission, and I will digitally sign it for you.
Since during the time, what's the employer going to say?
Well, you're not really a part of his church.
You don't even live in the same state.
Well, everybody else is doing church through Zoom anyway.
We weren't, but everybody else is.
And that counts as being a part of it.
So I took advantage of that and being shrewd and saying, I basically essentially said by proxy, and no, that goes against my theology.
I would never do that in an ordinary case.
Take on remote members.
But I took on remote members.
Members in a jail, they weren't true members, but in an adjacent sense temporarily for that time, simply so that I could function in their employer's eyes or the state's eyes as their pastor so that they could continue feeding their family.
And you know what?
Turns out that when 90% of the pastors in America are saying, you either got to have a heart attack five years from now or either starve your family.
And sorry, Bub, we won't help you.
And then you're one of the few pastors who will.
Yeah, it turns out that people will leave their church and come to yours.
Yeah.
Go figure.
That's not my fault.
Yeah.
That's not poaching.
That's you, a lib, tarred pastor, being an idiot and worse than an idiot, being sinister towards these men who were trying to feed their families and were afraid of putting something that had no long term testing.
Oh, it had millions of tests.
Yeah, millions who've all had it for a few weeks.
No long term testing.
And pastors utterly failed.
And that's the lesson that.
You know, we think, did we learn the lesson of COVID?
Well, some of us think it's, you know, don't lock down.
No, the lesson for the church, the lesson in the church is courage, defend your men, right?
If there is something that has to happen, you handle it privately.
Right.
You handle it privately.
Right.
Some guys learned, they learned the lesson in the case study, but they missed the overarching lesson and the principle.
So the lesson is, well, you know, lex rex, you know, law above the king and the state, you know, sphere sovereignty and the state can't tell the church to lock down.
I mean, that's true.
That is true.
Yep.
I'm with you.
But no, there were many lessons.
And one of the overarching lessons in principle was: pastors, stand by the men.
Do not sell out.
Like pastors, don't be shepherds for sale.
Don't sell out the men in your church to the state or to their employer or to anybody.
And you can do that with COVID and mRNA vaccines, you can do that with BLM and selling out men in your church.
Because they weren't woke enough and politically correct enough.
And you can also do it with Nazis.
You can sell out the men in your church, some who are genuinely just asking questions, and others who actually have gone further than that and really are on the precipice of becoming Hitler apologists.
And yet, even with them, there's a crown in the gutter, guys.
You get mad at me.
You get mad at me because the people in your church are watching my podcast.
You get mad at me because our platform keeps growing.
You say, well, he's just platform building.
No, your platform building.
You're building my platform.
You're building, Pastor, my platform.
And you know how you're doing it?
You keep taking your pastoral crown that was given you divinely by God and you throw it down in the gutter.
And I keep picking it up and saying, Well, then I guess I'll wear it.
And I guess I'll wear it.
I feel like, you know, I know he's the bad guy, but I feel like Thanos, you know, just collecting, you know, gemstones, you know, one by one.
But except I'm not taking them and killing people.
They're just handing them over.
They're like Esau despising their birthright.
They're just saying, Oh, yeah, we've got young men in our church, but they make me feel.
Icky and I don't like them.
And like, okay, I'll speak to them.
I'll talk to them.
The harvest is plentiful.
The workers are few.
And all day long, people are fine.
And here's the thing they're fine working in a harvest so long as that harvest is on the left.
So long as that harvest is, you know, if that harvest is a young man who's thinking about sodomy, yeah, I'll work with, I'll be compassionate.
But if it's a young man who's like, sodomy is an abomination in the sight of God, why would I ever think about sodomy?
I'm just thinking about the guys who burned all the books that were written by sodomites in the 1930s.
And maybe we made a mistake here historically because the sodomites seem to be taking over again.
One, I don't even think those two guys belong in the same category.
The guy on the left is far, far, far worse.
The guy on the right.
He may come to some wrong historical conclusions and he may have some spiritual deficiencies in terms of maturity that need to be ironed out.
But if you just say that guy's icky and you throw him away, well, then guess what?
My podcast is going to get bigger.
And you're going to keep getting mad, but you did it, not me.