Pastor Joel Webbin and Orrin McIntyre dissect America's decline from a constitutional republic to a "Total State," driven by elites enforcing transgender ideology and lockdowns against public will. They condemn "boomer eschatology" for fostering self-hating guilt that erodes historical memory, arguing the post-war consensus replaced founding virtues with narratives of inherent sin. McIntyre predicts an iron-fisted strongman will rule before a potential aristocratic return, urging Americans to reject revisionist history and honor ancestors to counter social engineering. The discussion emphasizes reconstructing families and local communities under biblical hierarchy rather than attempting global conversion, concluding that restoring sovereignty requires focusing on immediate neighbors and rejecting the "abolition of man." [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Welcome to Theology Applied00:02:11
All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
And in this episode, I am welcoming, for the very first time to the show, Orrin McIntyre.
He's a contributor with The Blaze.
He's got a podcast.
It's really good.
You should check it out.
And what we're discussing in this episode is why we should constitution even harder classical liberalism.
Just kidding.
Orrin is a realist, and by God's grace, so am I.
And so we're not talking about that.
What we're talking about instead is.
How America has not been a constitutional republic for a very long time.
And if you think we are currently still a constitutional republic in terms of how we actually function, then I've got some oceanfront property in Kansas that I would love to sell to you.
It's time to wake up, it's time to grow up.
A constitutional republic is wonderful, but we don't have it because that was designed for a moral and religious people.
And currently, all we have are a bunch of degenerates.
So, can we get back to the Constitution?
And if so, how?
Or is this a storm that we just have to go through?
And if so, what's on the other side?
And are we prepared for that?
That's the episode.
I think you're going to like it.
Tune in now.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right.
Welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Weben with Right Response Ministries.
And in this episode, I'm privileged to welcome to the show for the first time, Oren McIntyre.
He is a contributor with The Blaze.
He has great political commentary.
He is a Protestant Southern Baptist.
Oren, thanks for coming on the show.
Thank you so much for having me, man.
All right.
So you've got a new book coming out.
Let's go ahead and plug that first and give us a brief synopsis for the listener of why did you write the book?
What's it about?
Sure.
I think, like a lot of people who probably watch this, I grew up as a talk radio conservative, standard GOP, neoconservative type of guy.
And I went to school for politics.
I ended up being a political reporter, worked a little bit in politics.
False Assumptions of Christendom00:15:30
And then 2016 and 2020 happened.
And like a lot of people, I just learned that politics doesn't work at all the way that I thought it was.
Power in the United States actually does not conform to the Constitution, it doesn't restrict any of the things that I thought it did.
And this kind of threw me for a loop.
And so I kind of went on a journey of exploring political theory, trying to understand what had happened, why we were in the situation we were in, and how power really works here.
And as I did that, I started to kind of collect all of that and put it into YouTube essays.
And eventually that turned into the book.
And so the total state is really my journey to understand how the land of the free, the, you know, it suddenly transformed into this place where lockdowns and cancellations and the end of free speech seemed to be everywhere.
And that's really what the book's about.
Right.
So the title of the book is The Total State.
Its release date is May 7th.
May 7th.
And basically what you.
You're just pulling back the veil that God in His providence pulled back for you, you know, at a personal level over 2016 and 2020, and just realizing, I think, you know, like, you know, one mutual that you obviously know and that I've had the pleasure of getting to know, Steve Dace.
How does he say it?
We're not a nation of laws and never will be.
We are a nation of political will.
Do you know what I'm referencing?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he's exactly right about that.
That's a deeper insight that I think a lot of people realize of what a nation really is at the end of the day.
It's, Not a constitution.
It's not a piece of paper.
It's a people with a particular way of being.
And that's certainly something that I learned on my journey when writing that book.
Right.
The people and their political and moral and religious will.
I always think back to COVID, the restrictions and the lockdowns and the mass mandates and all those things, it ended precisely at the moment that the American people said, We're done.
That's when it wasn't, the science did not change.
The political science changed.
And what changed the political science was the critical mass of the American people saying, Okay, that's enough, we're done.
And then it just was over.
Yeah, it was the elites realizing that there was a limit to how far they could push people, how far they could manipulate people.
And they got away with too much and they pushed them too far, but there was a natural limit.
And you're exactly right.
Well, all of a sudden we got a scaling down.
Oh, you don't have to be six feet away.
You could be three feet away.
Actually, you can be right next to each other.
Maybe you need a mask.
Well, maybe you don't need it at all.
Maybe it doesn't really do anything.
Yeah, how many vaccines?
We kind of lost count.
We're not sure.
It really was just commiserate with people saying, we're done.
Yeah, when people said we're done, all of a sudden the rules changed.
Yeah, so let's talk about the Constitution briefly.
So I'm one of the guys who's willing to wear the label Christian nationalist.
Like I wouldn't have, Doug Wilson says, I wouldn't have chosen that label for myself.
I wouldn't have picked it out of a hat.
But there's lots of pejoratives that will be thrown at the conservative Christian right.
And it's somewhat rare that they pick a pejorative that you can actually work with.
It's like, well, yeah, I could work with that.
I know that some of your hesitancy with that label is, and I think you're right about this, is recognizing that Christian nationalist is really just a placeholder for white Christian nationalist.
That's what they mean.
That's what the left means.
This ethnocentric, you're a racist.
When they say you're a Christian nationalist, they mean you're a racist, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's a way.
For them to go ahead and link Christianity to their anti fascist crusade, which is the animating ideology of our current regime, to be very clear, people are confused about what ideology binds this very diverse coalition of the left together.
And it's really that they think they're putting Red America through denazification.
That's insane, of course, when you look at Red America and its beliefs and its level of tolerance, but they don't care.
That's what animates them, that's what puts them together.
And so when they tried to coin the phrase Christian nationalist, of course, it had Existed before them.
It was not something created wholly by the media.
However, it was certainly thrust on to people who want to see Christians take a more active role in the government, do want to see a return to the idea that biblical values should be reflected, that there's no problem with basing your law on the law of God, that these things are in no way mutually exclusive.
They went ahead and thrust that title on them for a reason because they knew, for better or for worse, that white evangelicals are one of the largest and most powerful forces in the United States.
And one of those that are most likely to continue to have Christian values.
And so they wanted to single them out.
They wanted to demonize them.
And they wanted an easy catchphrase to go ahead and sweep them into this crusade against hate, racism, all these things.
Right.
Right.
So within the Christian nationalist banner, there are lots of variations and lots of different definitions.
But I think that's part of the difficulty.
But that's also, I think, part of one of the pros is that it's.
It's meant to be a big tent where guys of different persuasions can partner together and work towards a common cause.
But one of the, if I think of, you know, well, what's the lowest common denominator that pretty much every Christian nationalist would agree with?
I think one is that, you know, most of the Christian nationalists that I speak to believe that God could change the nation not just in one way, but in one of two ways.
And the two ways being he could send revival, there could be a mass move of his spirit across the land and through preachers and churches and, you know, gospel heralding that.
That people are born again and that there's mass conversion and regeneration.
And we just have more Christians and that these Christians then exercise their political will.
And if we have numbers on our side, then things start to get better.
And I absolutely think that that's something God can do.
I see as a drawback there, though, I think some would say, well, we've never had the numbers on our side.
The Southern Baptists boast of 14 million, but you can only find six or seven million on a Sunday in the pews.
So, we've never really had the numbers on our side.
And even if the numbers are there in terms of church attendance, Protestant evangelical churches, half of the people aren't truly born again.
They're not really regenerate.
And I'm more of the persuasion where I actually think we have had the numbers.
I think that we have had many Christians, truly born again Christians, but that there's just been so much theological and cultural and political ignorance that the numbers, even with the numbers, it wasn't enough.
I think God could change the nation bottom up, mass move of the spirit, revival, whatever you want to call it, renewal.
But I also think that the Christian nationalists are unique from other evangelicals who have an aversion towards the Christian nationalist label in the sense that Christian nationalists seem to be comfortable with not only a bottom up change, but also, if God chooses, a top down change.
And when I look at scripture, I look at Israel, bad king, bad king, good king.
And it's not because he was elected.
It's not because God sent revival and there was 50% of the population of Israel now with regenerate hearts plus one, and they voted in Josiah.
No, it's just in the province of God, you get a Josiah.
Josiah begins to legislate and enforce righteous laws and tear down the high places.
And that functions as a tutor.
That begins to, righteous laws enforced with power begins to disciple the people and the hearts of the people.
Change.
And then, you know, that's Old Testament.
But then over the last 2,000 years of church history, not just the history of Israel under the Old Covenant, but you look at whether it's King Alfred or Constantine or, you know, Charlemagne or all these different examples.
I feel as though, yes, God has sent revival.
But often, if we're looking at the chronological order, it does seem as though in the province of God, it's a small percentage of the population that's strategic and organized and that accrues power.
Which power is not inherently evil.
It depends how you wield it.
It's a tool like a sword.
And they accrue power and then they use it righteously.
And then that righteous legislation and enforcement of God's laws then begins to tutor and disciple and shape a people.
And even if the people are unregenerate, righteous laws, one thing that they do is they reveal to the people that they're lawless and therefore in need of a savior who fulfills the law in their place.
And that becomes the backdrop, the context.
It doesn't save people, but it becomes the context for gospel preaching.
Which does save people.
And so I think that one thing that I appreciate about the Christian nationalists is it seems like all of them, one common denominator, are perfectly comfortable in saying, well, the homo jihad with less than 3% of the population over the course of 40 years replaced the American flag with a rainbow.
Why can't we do that?
What do you think?
I think that this is a huge shift and an important shift.
I think that it's important for people to realize, as you're saying, that.
Civilizations are usually led by organized minorities.
I tend to focus on the political Italian elite school off the Machiavellian strain.
This is also known as political realism.
And it recognizes the fact that all culture tends to be derived from elite attitudes and elite preferences, that actually it doesn't tend to come from the bottom and up, but as you said, from the top down.
I think it's really easy to observe, as you said, if we just look at the changes for, say, gay marriage and trans ideology.
These things were wildly unpopular not very long ago.
The gay marriage was voted down in California in Proposition 8 not that long ago.
Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton had to disavow it in their presidential runs, had to say, No, I'm for the traditional definition of a man and a woman.
That's how unpopular this was just a few decades ago.
And now you get fired for disagreeing with it.
Now you're completely unable to be even employed at a large company if you happen to disagree with this.
If you have a basic biblical view, a natural view of what marriage has been.
For its entire existence.
And somehow people still think that this is all about some kind of marketplace of ideas or popular opinions that will rise from the bottom.
No, this is top down.
Again, look at the speed at which it's become normalized to feed puberty blockers to eight year olds.
Try telling anyone that 10 years ago.
They'll think you're insane.
The Westboro Baptist Church wouldn't have warned you against this kind of stuff, right?
They would have said, no, that sounds a little extreme, man.
Like, I know things are bad, but it's not going to get that bad.
And now this is just the reality we live in.
So I think there has to be a real awakening.
I think a lot of people on the right had.
What I like to call boomer eschatology, which is just, well, America is a Christian culture and it'll always be a Christian culture.
And if the Christian culture ends, it can only be because it's the end of the world.
They tied American institutions and biblical truth one to one and assumed that they would exist side by side in perpetuity and the only thing that could possibly rend them apart would be the literal end of all existence.
And so they never thought that they needed to impose that.
They never thought that they needed to maintain Christendom.
Christendom was just an assumption.
That would always exist.
It was not something that we needed to go ahead and maintain.
And so it wasn't just assumed.
I think Christendom was despised.
And when you talk about boomer eschatology, we call that dispensational premillennialism because that's what it is.
The idea that Jesus is going to come back next Thursday and that God has destined, it's written in the stars that things will progressively be worse and worse until he does.
And then you look back to a Christendom of yesteryear and you look back at it with.
With shame, regret, even hatred, despising it, thinking.
The thought, I think, for a lot of evangelical kind of boomer theology is that Christendom lends towards weaker pulpits, weaker doctrine, weaker gospel preaching, and false conversions.
Because everybody will think that they're culturally Christian.
They'll just assume that the nation is Christian, the culture is Christian, and therefore that they, as an individual, are Christian in the proper sense capital C Christian, that they're regenerate and born again and going to heaven when they die.
And therefore, you know, it's going to be a net loss.
Christian culture is a net loss because you don't have trans in kids, but you have millions, you know, people by the millions going, you know, bound for hell while thinking that they're bound for heaven, which I just think that that's a false dichotomy.
I completely reject the notion.
I forget who it is, but some major atheist, one of his main right hand guys, you know, during COVID, you know, was trying to escape all the lockdowns and things like that, moved to some tiny little rural red dot on the map.
And after being there for six months, he and his wife, you know, they had no.
Friends, they want a community.
They asked around the town, you know, where do we find relationships and friendships?
So they, oh, well, we do that at church.
So they started going to a cowboy church.
And then, you know, this cowboy church just had a simple, you know, gospel proclamation and they got saved.
And now he, you know, identifies as a Christian and tells his testimony.
And the point being that you get him, this guy who's a radical atheist and hates God, get him into a conservative Christian context.
And it doesn't make him, Further averse to Christianity, it makes him Christian.
And so, will there be false conversion?
Sure.
Will there be people with false assurance?
Sure.
But I think that Baptists, especially, sadly, and I am a Baptist, but Baptists have this weird relationship with persecution.
They're deathly afraid of it.
So, they think that if we were a Christian nation, the Presbyterians would drown the Baptists.
And then at the same time, they're afraid of persecution and they also are secretly wishing for it because they think that persecution is the only tool.
In God's arsenal to purify the church.
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Forming a New Government00:17:09
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Yeah, there tends to be this idea that at some point, if things get really hard for Christians, we'll have real Christianity.
Right.
And that just obviously is not the case.
I think when we look around us, we see that the culture is falling apart for a reason.
And you can't just pretend that if you retreat as Christians, that, you know, well, as long as my kids are fine.
As long as my kids are watching the right things or listening to the right things, they're in the church when the doors are open, everything will be okay.
It's like, no, your kids have to go to school, or at the very least, even if you homeschool them, they have to meet people, they have to live in this world, and they will follow incentives.
The average person will follow incentives.
And so, the culture that you had was hard fought for by your ancestors.
You are the posterity that is benefiting from the trees they planted that they did not get to sit under.
And then you sit around saying, well, it'll be best for my children to bake in the sun.
It's like, no, you just were born on third base and you assumed that it would always be the case.
And that's a terrible way to live.
It's incredibly entitled and it's beneath people who should know better.
So, talk to us about the Constitution.
Are we a constitutional republic?
No, we couldn't keep it.
And that's a hard thing for a lot of people.
When we look at the United States, I think that most Christians have gone ahead and substituted the Constitution for American identity.
They said, well, we don't really know what to base our identity in anymore.
We've had so many waves of.
Immigration and transformation, religiously and culturally, and all these things.
The only thing that can bind us together is the Constitution.
So they've kind of deified the Constitution and the founders to make that the political theology that goes ahead and drives us as a nation.
And because of that, they've made this kind of legal positivism the core of their belief in kind of who we are as a people.
And so they've lost this understanding.
Joseph de Maistre is a guy I like to pull from a lot.
He was a A French political theorist, and he talked a lot about what makes a constitution.
And he explained that all constitutions are written by God.
There's never been a constitution that's been written by men because constitutions are only the reflections of the way of being of a people.
The constitution does not create people, people create the constitution.
It is simply an instantiation of what has already been written onto the hearts of people by generations and generations of traditions that God has placed amongst them.
And so we never actually are defined by a constitution.
It's only the words on the paper that are kind of formalizing what we are already doing as a people.
And so the constitution can never bind us together because it's just a shadow of the people we are and the people we have to continue to be.
And while we don't seem to know this in the modern world, the founding fathers totally did.
They were very explicit about what the constitution was.
It was a document that was only capable of ruling a virtuous and religious people.
And if we ever walked away from that identity, if we ever walked away from that kind of shared Protestant Christian understanding of what the nation was, then we would not be governed by the Constitution.
And we no longer are those people.
And so, therefore, we are necessarily not governed by the document made for them.
Right.
Yeah.
Adams, right, was a moral and religious people.
Yeah.
We're degenerates.
We're not even close to, we're degenerates.
The Constitution is not.
Um, it's not suited for governing degenerates.
Uh, for governing degenerates, and I'm curious your thoughts on this if you agree or disagree.
Um, but I think for our population that is degraded, uh, morally and culturally, as far as religiously, as far as we have, um, you need power.
Um, men must be governed.
You need a Caesar type, you know.
Uh, so, so for me.
I would say if we're talking about, you know, does the Bible prescribe a certain form of government?
There are guys in the theonomous camp, and I would be a general equity theonomous.
Theonomy just means, you know, God, you know, theos, and it's just God's law.
That's all it means.
And so I am of that persuasion.
That's, I believe, the confessional position both in the Westminster and in the 1689.
A general equity theonomy, which means the moral law endures forever.
Think Ten Commandments, Decalogue, Exodus 20.
And then all these judicial laws, you're just, Extracting the general equity.
What's the main moral?
So, parapet on the borders of the roof.
Okay, well, we don't sleep on the roof because we have HVAC, you know, but that means, you know, to preserve human life, the dignity of human life.
So, seatbelts and speed limits, you know, whatever.
So, that's, you know, that's how we do it.
So, general equity theonomy, yes, I'm on board.
But some of the old school reconstructionist, theonomic, you know, pure blood guys who I appreciate and respect immensely, they would go so far as to say that the scripture actually dictates not just laws, but a particular form of government.
And they, of course, Being guys from the 60s and the 70s and the 80s, predominantly in American context, lo and behold, shocker, the type of government that the Bible absolutely dictates is a constitutional republic.
And I would say, I don't know.
Now, if you're asking me my preference, that would probably be my preference, would be a constitutional republic.
But I think the conditions for that is a moral people.
So I think you can work towards that in the future.
But I don't think constitutioning even harder is going to get us out of our current mess.
I don't see us getting out of this apart from things getting worse and worse.
And then eventually, like a Caesar type rising through the ranks, a populist figure, and the people, the political will, the people are desperate and they're like, yes, do it, so and so.
And then so and so.
Constitution be damned, just rules with an iron fist, and, you know, like a Cromwell type.
And then, you know, hopefully don't get his son.
Maybe then you're able, and then you, maybe it's just a one generation, one guy kind of thing.
And then you have to move back to, you know, aristocracy or some other form.
What do you think?
Yeah, it can be very complicated.
When you look at the historical cycle of regimes, it would seem like we're at the point, as you say, where Caesar figure often rises.
We're really in that moneyed oligarchical period of existence.
And it feels like you can feel that pressure building as to the only way through that to cut through that Gordian knot, that gridlock, and kind of restore order would be someone who could take the reins.
But it really, of course, depends.
Joseph de Maistre again said that every people will have a different form of government.
It's not that there is no right form of government.
But it again will align with the way of being of the people, and no people is static.
So the people will change over time, their needs and desires will change over time, and so therefore their governments will change over time.
In the United States, we kind of do this little trick.
See, we don't number our republics the way that, say, France does.
And so we pretend like we've had this one homogenous rule the entire existence of the United States.
Of course, that's not true at all.
We started under the Articles of Confederation, we dissolved those.
Improperly, we didn't take a vote, we didn't follow the rules of Articles of Confederation.
Our elites just said, All right, we're going to pass the Constitution now.
And even inside the Constitution, we've had a very radically different ways of governance.
So, for instance, the presidencies of, say, FDR and Abraham Lincoln are very close to dictatorial.
I mean, people don't remember that FDR literally stole all the gold in the United States.
He just took it.
He said, You can't own gold anymore.
And he put it in Fort Knox.
And we just pretended that's a normal thing that presidents do.
We didn't declare that the Constitution was over.
We just let the president steal all the gold.
And then we moved on.
And we pretended that we had the exact same government we had before.
And so the United States has had strongmen.
They've had dictatorial, Caesar like rulers in our history.
In fact, they're often the people we revere the most, despite pretending that we care very much about separation of powers and checks and balances and control of the executive office.
It's not really the case.
We kind of allow these people to rise as necessary.
And so, as De Maistre predicted, we kind of allow our form of government to change in time, even though we technically keep the storyline, the continuity of the people, as if we've been one continuous republic this entire time.
So, will we see a formal change out of the republican form of government?
I don't think so, in the same way that Augustus did not formally change Rome into an empire.
No one came by and banged a gong and said, the republic is done and now Rome is an empire.
He simply slowly acquired the powers of the principate and put them together.
And a couple generations later, no one could imagine that a Caesar didn't have all these powers, even though there was no formal declaration of this imperial title.
For Augustus, he was simply the first citizen.
And so I think that's probably the situation we're heading towards, assuming that America holds together as one political entity.
I'm actually a little skeptical that that will continue.
But if it does, I don't think we'll see a formal announcement that we've moved to the American imperium.
Right.
I think that's fair.
So talk about that for a moment.
Talk about the nation splitting.
What do you see is make your go ahead and pull out your crystal ball and give us a.
Some predictions.
Well, a lot of people assume talk about national divorce, right?
We hear this phrase thrown around a lot.
Now, I'm skeptical again that we're ever going to get some official secession.
I think the question of secession, for better or for worse, was kind of answered in the 1860s, and we're probably not going to see any official move in that direction.
However, I think we can all feel that the competency of our current state is collapsing.
We can feel that competency crisis and what's happening there.
And it's also becoming very clear that states like Florida, Completely ignored what the federal government demanded that they do during COVID, fared much better than those that complied with everything that the central government demanded of them.
We're also seeing this with things like immigration.
We see guys like Greg Abbott and now probably Ron DeSantis with possible mass migration from people fleeing the Haitian Civil War being tested.
Like, will you protect your state from an invasion?
Because the federal government isn't doing it.
In fact, they're actively importing it, they're facilitating it.
Are you willing to take independent executive action?
And as we saw with Greg Abbott, when he started to lock down Eagle Pass, the federal government threatened him and said there was going to be a lot of retaliation.
And then nothing happened, right?
And every time there's a check on sovereignty like that, every time the federal government has to go head to head with somebody and loses the battle and there are no consequences, people start to notice and they say, hey, man, would you rather live in a state where your borders are protected and people are allowed to go outside even though the news is telling them that they're dying from a pandemic?
Or do you want to constantly be waiting for the 19th booster and keeping your kids home from school because you have to house the next wave of illegal immigrants in their classroom?
And people start making their choices.
My state, Florida, is now currently flooded with people who came from New York and these other places that had these wild COVID lockdowns.
And so, what I think we're going to see is probably that people simply start ignoring the federal government more and more, they're going to fail these tests of sovereignty.
And power is going to accumulate in these regions.
And like many empires before it, the United States will probably just slowly come apart, not with any official declaration, but simply because the different territories realize that it's better to govern themselves than to continue to kick authority back up to Washington.
Right.
Yeah.
My family and I and seven other families, we left at the end of 2020.
I was born and raised in Texas, but I had moved in 2009 to California to plant a church in Southern California and handed the church over.
In 2020, and at the end of that year, my family and seven other families we all moved to Texas, um, back to where you know where I grew up.
And um, and I wrote this little book, I've got it next to me, but uh, Fight by Flight, which is a glorified blog, um, you know, with uh just massive font to get to 100 pages.
But basically, it's a simple concept, but just saying that um, I don't think it's just you know one of two choices that I stay and fight, fight the good fight in my blue state.
Or I surrender and quit and give up and lose by leaving.
I think one of the ways that people can fight blue states is, and I think one of the more effective ways is to leave, to stop propping them up with your business, your taxes.
California, 16 million professing Christians in a state of 42 million population, 6 million voted for Trump.
You know, so like six million people took their vote, flushed it down the toilet because it was 12 million for Biden.
So, not even close.
When, you know, at the electoral level, it is less than 50,000 votes in, you know, like three or four states, respectively, that would have flipped, you know, Trump winning the presidency.
And so, I really do think that that's one of the ways that, you know, a practical way that you can fight back.
And I know that's not for everybody.
So, you know, some people, there are extenuating circumstances.
Some people really are missionaries.
So, that's one, you know, like we send people to the Sudan.
But we don't send everyone to the Sudan.
And I think that as we move more into like Aaron Renn's conception of negative world, I think as America becomes more hostile towards Christ, I think we're going to need to start thinking about certain states in the way that we previously have thought about certain countries when it comes to missions.
That, okay, these people, these places still need the gospel, they still need churches, they still need ministers.
But we would look for certain qualifications, we wouldn't send just anyone.
Right, like there's 16 million professing Christians in California.
I don't think all 16 million of them are missionary caliber.
I think you know that a lot of them probably should consider leaving, and then maybe Newsom finally has to lie in the bed that he's been making for years.
Maybe he actually has to take a spoonful of his own medicine, you know, that he's not bailed out, and maybe not, you know, maybe that's unaffected, maybe it doesn't work.
But all that being said, to your point, echoing your point, of yeah, a lot of people are moving and balkanizing.
Some of the guys on Twitter, like, no, don't balkanize.
Live near the coast to save that state and also go on a cruise and pay money.
I just think that's insane to ask Christians to sacrifice their kids because that's what you're asking.
You're asking Christians to very, with not a guarantee, but a very high likelihood.
Education and American Identity00:09:44
Their children, if they remain in that state with those schools and those laws and that culture, they're basically saying, in the name of evangelism, would you give up your kids?
And people make that trade because that's literally what we've been doing, I think, for like six decades.
That is Southern Baptist personal evangelism.
Meanwhile, all your kids grow up, you put them in public school, and they're all atheists now.
But do you have any thoughts on that?
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's exactly correct.
We have this idea that we have to win everywhere all the time.
And if we aren't constantly evangelizing, if we aren't constantly changing the culture everywhere, then we're not doing it anywhere.
And this is, I think, a failure on a lot of levels to understand human organization.
I think we have a very serious problem of scale of civilization involved here, where we have adopted the idea that we must convert the entire empire, and you need to understand America as an empire, not as simply a nation.
If you think of it as a nation, you will fail this test.
We have to win the whole empire once or not at all.
And that's just a terrible way to understand things.
One of the hardest problems with Christian nationalism, and I think Christians attempting to involve themselves in politics, is we have lost the idea of what a nation even is.
We can't even define it, we don't understand it.
One of my problems with the phrase Christian nationalism is not that I disagree with pretty much anything that Christian nationalists want to do in general, but that it Avoids the more difficult question of what a nation really is.
And I know Stephen Wolfe talked about this somewhat in his book.
I haven't read it yet, but I've been told that he did address this.
But until we understand that and understand that, yes, America is a Christian nation, but Armenia was a Christian nation, Ethiopia is a Christian nation, that's not sufficient to explain what you are as an American.
And not to say that Christianity or Christ is not sufficient, but this is simply not what defines in its entirety.
What are people?
And so, for us to be a people, first, we must be geographically concentrated.
That's what defines a nation.
That's why, for instance, one of the top priorities to create any kind of understanding and shared identity as Americans is closing the borders.
Because unless you have a set population that can understand their relationship with each other, you can never bind into one people.
You can't constantly have this massive turnover and still create an identity and a shared moral vision.
You know, cemented in Christianity or anything else because you're constantly changing who is involved in your society.
And this constant renegotiation makes it impossible for you to understand this.
And so I think geographic concentration is critical, especially as the culture becomes more hostile.
Like you said, I had Aaron Wren on recently.
And, you know, one of the things that both he and I have talked about is that we have to start looking at this as people who are in a minority situation.
When the Catholics or the Jews came to America, They created their own schools.
They didn't let Protestants raise their children because they wanted to have their religion and their culture continue, even though the majority of that culture was not Catholic or Jewish.
Protestants used to be able to just assume that if your kid went into a public school classroom, they were going to get a generic Protestant education.
We called it American education, but that's not what it was.
And we can't do that anymore.
And so we have to start thinking more like people who do not live in a culture that is default assigned with their values and their identity.
Right.
No, I think you're absolutely right.
A nation is not an economic zone.
It's not a set, merely a set of moral principles.
It has to be, at some level, at the most basic level, it has to be people and place.
It's actually land.
It's actually people, a particular people.
And multiculturalism is not your friend.
We have to have borders or you don't have a nation.
And if we had borders and a generation passed, we probably would, over time, have a lot more unity.
Diversity has not been our strength.
And that's not to say everybody hears that and they're like, oh, so you just want the nation to be 100% white people.
No, I want the nation to be people who have the same culture.
I don't particularly care what color the people are, but I want them to have the same culture.
I want them for certain to have the same religion, culture, cultus, the Latin word, worship.
I want us to have the same culture to where, you know, if we shut down the borders today and held that tightly, then, you know, my grandkids could live next to their black neighbor.
And, you know, And they'd be able to share in common that their fathers and grandfathers fought in the same wars, hold the same traditions, have the same religion, the same theological convictions, at least generally so.
Like you're still going to have denominations and different variations, but yet you can't do that when your nation has no borders and it's just an economic zone that you just move in and move out, you know, at free will and it doesn't.
So, yeah, we're not much of a nation these days, but I think we can be.
And that's everybody, you know, again, back to the Christian nationalist thing, they try to make it a boogeyman.
Christian nationalism is really just racist.
You know, they just want it all to be white people.
No, but I do want America to be uniquely Christian and beyond that, because you're saying, well, okay, but what if Japan's Christian?
And what if, you know, Argentina is Christian?
And what if, you know, Then, what makes America unique?
Well, the geographic center, its borders, its land.
But in speaking of its people, I would say what makes America unique is, as opposed to other European countries, is that America was uniquely Protestant.
You know, so different expressions, theological expressions of Christian thought.
I think that America these days, you know, we were kind of, it started in many ways as a Presbyterian revolt, you know, the Black Road Regiment.
I think that if we could get back to a Christian center, America would actually be uniquely Protestant and particularly Baptist.
That might be American culture.
Americans are Baptist.
That's what they are.
And that would be great.
I don't think there'd be anything bad about that, but it would have to be shared.
It would have to be common among the people.
It can't just be all these splintered factions, or you can't keep a country that way.
Yeah, when we look at the geographic size of America, obviously, if this was a European country, yeah, it's funny, go to England and it's like, yeah, this entire country, which is not a small country by European standards, is the size of my state, right?
And so, if we were a European country, we'd be many different countries.
We would be very recognizably an empire anywhere else.
And the size of America has always had a very distinct impact on its identity.
We always had.
Multiple different types of Protestants, even Catholics and others in the colonies, they all kind of broke out into their own.
Most people don't know that the separation of church and state isn't in the Constitution until the incorporation of the First Amendment.
You were allowed to have state churches, and we did.
And these things were very common, that this is part of the American experience in a way that we've kind of cleansed from history so we can pretend that this is some kind of secular nation and always has been.
And so these different identities existed regionally.
People in New England were very different from people in North Carolina or Georgia, but they all shared.
This kind of general identity as Americans.
And that was okay because we used to be these United States.
And that regionalism allowed us to have significant cultural and even religious differences while still binding together in a way that allowed us to cooperate and have a shared identity.
And in a weird way, we kind of destroyed that post World War II, especially, right?
After the Civil War and then World War II, ironically, the radio and shared public education kind of just attempted to homogenize the entirety of American identity.
And it's created a very weird scenario where everyone had to fit into this cookie cutter box of what America was going to be because it got piped in through your television set.
And we're kind of seeing that come back apart right now.
So I don't think there's anything wrong necessarily with different states or different regions having very different ways of being and different understandings.
But like you said, there has to be an overarching thing that gels the country together.
And that was most assuredly Protestant Christianity.
But with the abandonment of that, we've gotten this.
You know, a heretical version of it in wokeness.
And it's all of the most radical universalist strain of Protestantism without any of the, you know, God.
And so obviously it's doing its best to be this kind of gutter religion that binds the country together, but in the most horrific way possible.
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Yeah, it seems like if there's anything that America now, you know, a universal thing that, like, what is America?
Revisiting the Samaritan Story00:15:15
It's anti-racist.
Yep.
That's what America is.
Which really, if you want to, you know, spell that out more accurately, America is a country that hates itself.
I mean, that's really what it is.
Japan doesn't hate itself.
Japan isn't losing sleep, you know.
You know, burdened by guilt.
They're perfectly comfortable being Japanese and China is perfectly comfortable.
I feel like we're only one of the few countries that is ashamed of our past, hates ourselves.
You know, and I've been telling people I feel like two things that you need in terms of like a positive vision, if there's going to be any hope, is honor for your fathers and hope for the future.
Whereas I feel like we have disdain for our fathers and doubt and despair for the future.
And if you don't, and I think a lot of that actually is religious.
I think a lot of that is dispensationalism.
I think a lot of that is boomer theology.
Like you said, there's no hope for the future.
And we've all been taught that our founding, not just for our nation, but the last 2,000 years of Christianity is mostly bad.
That the features are all the bad things and the bugs are, you know, every now and then we got it right, you know, so that we're marked by the Spanish Inquisition and, you know, all these, you know, terrible, terrible things.
And so if that's the frame of mind for the people is that our past was bad and our future is bleak, then there's not much, there's just not much that you can do.
So I don't know.
I think people, you know, a lot of the things that have been helpful for me over the past few years.
Is continuing to read theology, but realizing just how weak my understanding was of history.
I've had to read a lot more history and trying to read about history that's not just revisionist, trying to find primary sources and what actually happened.
Were the Crusades all bad?
Was this good?
Was this bad?
So, do you think there's any hope for Americans to relearn?
To be taught, or do you think that the post war consensus is just done irrevocable damage?
I think the post war consensus probably has done some pretty serious damage.
And I think that at this point, we're in a scenario where the only way out is through.
I think that you have an honorable history of America.
I think there is a lot to rescue from this.
But I think that we're really through this post modern setting at this point where people have lost.
That continuity of history.
And you're not going to probably go ahead and just revivify that by giving everyone more intense civics lessons.
You know, Cicero said that to not know history is to always remain a child, and that the purpose of a man's life is to be woven into the great chain of being, into the tapestry of their ancestors.
And we've completely abandoned that.
Like you said, we've rejected our ancestors, we've cast them down.
One of the things that even probably most Christians, most conservatives, Baptists, and many have done is they've followed the, replaced the story of the founding fathers with the story of the civil rights revolution.
America was a country born in sin and iniquity.
And it's only through the constant remission of racial sins that we can go ahead and become something new and better.
That's a terrible way to live.
Like you said, that's a doctrine of self annihilation.
And we have to have an identity that is something that we can be proud of, something that we can care about.
Something we can hand proudly to our posterity.
And that means probably reestablishing a way of being.
I mean, what do we have at this point?
C.S. Lewis predicted the abolition of man because he said eventually the social engineers would figure out everything about kind of what makes a man a man and they would strip them out and reconfigure it.
And if that's not what we've done through our advertisements, through our social media and everything else, simply stripped the human down to its constituent parts and reprogrammed it to consume things.
Then I don't know what else has happened.
And so, if we're going to be human again, if we're going to return to being a real people grounded in an identity and a history, being connected to our God and worshiping, that necessarily requires us to go back to an existence where we're probably, again, geographically concentrated, building a tradition.
We have to start that culture again, anew, because what was before has been more or less made.
Unaccessible to us.
It's hard for many people to even grasp what that would mean.
And so I think that that starts again, I think, with scaling things down, not trying to convert the entire country or the entire world, but first looking to your neighbor and being like, do I know them?
Can we hold each other accountable?
Can we share a faith together?
You know, do our families grow together?
Like that's a much more important task right now than, you know, getting your Jesus commercial on the Super Bowl.
Right.
Especially if your Jesus commercial sucks.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's really good.
As you were talking, it just made me think about, you know, again, dishonoring your fathers, being, you know, being taught this revisionist history that they were all bad and that we just basically need to atone for the sins of our fathers.
And that's our entire existence.
It makes me think, you know, it almost feels like too on the nose, but I, you know, but I think it's just because God's word is living and active and relevant and applicable.
So I don't think it's too obvious.
I think it's exactly true.
The fifth commandment, you know, the Apostle Paul brings it back up in Ephesians and says, you know, this is the first commandment with the promise.
And the promise is the fifth commandment to honor thy father and mother.
The promise is that you would live a long life, but particularly that you would live long in the land.
And I think that nations that dishonor their fathers will not last in the land.
And I think the Bible means that it's like, well, what's the deep, you know, secret metaphorical meaning?
No, I think it's just that.
I think you get kicked out of the land.
Literally, if you hate your fountain, hate your fathers, hate your history, if a generation, whole cloth, is taught to despise their heritage, then they will lose it.
They will give it up.
They'll give it away.
And that really is like thinking that our forefathers were terrible people.
That's one way that we've dishonored, disobeyed, broken the fifth commandment, dishonored our fathers.
But another way is through immigration.
Our great grandfathers and great great grandfathers and beyond, and mothers for that matter, they paid an immense price.
Some of them gave their lives.
They didn't do that for strangers.
And that's not because we hate strangers.
That doesn't mean that somebody from another nation is bad.
We're not saying that.
But what we're saying is like right now, I'm working my butt off.
As a pastor, and then in addition to that, you know, making right response ministries.
I'm with a couple guys, members in my church, we're working on starting a soap company.
It's like, why are you doing it?
You already got enough going on.
Why the soap company?
Because I want to leave an inheritance to my children's children because the Bible commands me to do so.
And that inheritance can be nothing less than a spiritual inheritance, teaching them the truths of Christ.
But I would be shocked if it's not more.
I don't think it's merely a spiritual inheritance.
I think that inheritance is spiritual and I think it includes cash.
I just think it does.
And so, my point is, I'm working my butt off, but here's the deal I am not working my butt off for a child in Uganda.
And I think children in Uganda are great, love them, but I don't love them like I love my kids.
Not even close.
Our forefathers died.
They died for their posterity.
And when their posterity gives away, A legacy that we didn't earn, but that our forefathers died for to strangers, we are breaking the fifth commandment and not honoring our father and mother.
And the fifth commandment is the first commandment that comes with the promise that you will live and specifically in the land.
And yeah, right now I think we're in the process of losing the land.
Shocker.
Yeah, no, I would 100% agree.
I think what happened is that we told ourselves a story because it allowed us.
To not have to work very hard.
And the story was this America is a land of individualism.
We are individuals.
The capable individual is the key building block of kind of liberty and freedom.
And so, therefore, I don't have a duty to my children or my children's children.
I have a duty to the generations that will follow me and my posterity because, well, they need to learn how to do all this on their own.
I don't want to spoil them, right?
I don't want to.
And so, it's okay if I go ahead and go on my 19th cruise.
Or whatever.
And it's okay if the border's open because I get really cheap labor because ultimately, like, my kid will just have to find it out.
And I mean, aren't people from other nations just as good as my kid?
And there's no reason for me to go ahead and prefer this.
What we did is we allowed ourselves to abdicate our responsibilities.
The truth is that sovereignty lies in duty and reliance, right?
The ability of one to trust others and the duty of one to care for others is what actually binds a society together and what gives.
A group, its sovereignty and its continuity.
And if we abandon those things, then they don't just go away.
Like, people don't stop being dependent.
Like, I hate to break to everyone listening to this, but you're not an island.
You're not self sufficient.
Like, you need a lot of things, including your church and your family, your community, and everything around you.
And so do your children.
And if they don't get it from you, they'll get it from someone else.
And the people they're getting it from is the government.
One of the reasons that we have the kind of government we have now, the reason we have the total state, as I call it in my book, Is because we abdicated all of those responsibilities.
The different intermediate institutions that stood between the individual and the all consuming government.
Governments didn't used to be able to wield the level of control they have now because they didn't teach your kids, because they didn't take care of your parents when they got old, because they didn't provide you their health care.
These are all things your community did, your family did.
But it's a lot easier to tell ourselves, oh, well, I don't want to spoil my cat.
I don't want to make them dependent on me.
So I'll just turn them loose, which means I'll just turn them over to the government, is actually what you're saying.
And so if we have this idea that everyone is American, everyone can become an American, anyone can walk in at any time and just become an American.
Then it absolves us the duty to our neighbor because who's our, yeah, I had Phil Fisher, the guy from VeggieTales, telling me this on Twitter.
Everyone's our neighbor.
And it's like, Phil, if everyone's our neighbor, then nobody's our neighbor.
There is no duty to anyone.
We can't have a duty to everyone.
There's no such thing as a duty to everyone.
No one is capable of that.
We are only able to be bound to a certain number of people and hold a particular duty to a certain number of people.
And if we don't have an idea of who those people are, then we just don't take care of anyone.
You're right.
Yeah, Bob the tomato has been sorely disappointed with Phil for a very long time.
But with that, it's just such theological ignorance.
So, theologically, that's the whole point.
When Jesus is talking about the Good Samaritan and he's talking about love for neighbor, well, who is my neighbor?
And then he tells this parable of the Good Samaritan, and it's the guy that you least expect.
And there is, theologically, I mean, theologians have held this forever and long before the Reformed tradition for 2,000 years, Augustine, plenty of guys.
That there is a sense in which we have a universal neighborhood, that every human being created in the image of God is our neighbor.
However, Augustine and the Reformed tradition after him and everybody else has also argued the order of loves, that everyone may be our neighbor, but we are not equally obligated, morally obligated to all of our neighbors.
Every child is my neighbor.
But if I clothe children, On the other side of the planet and neglect to clothe my own, then the Bible has very harsh words for me.
The man who doesn't provide for the members of his own house has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
He's an apostate.
And I think American evangelicals, this is a general, you know, large swath comment I'm about to make, but in a general sense, American evangelicals are apostates, per the Apostle Paul.
They have denied the faith and are worse than unbelievers because they have cared.
More about the children in Uganda than the children at their dinner table.
And so, yes, in a technical sense, theologically, everyone is our neighbor.
But nowhere in scripture are we told to treat every neighbor with an equal devotion, with an equal love and affection.
I love all women, but I love my wife more.
And if I didn't, then I wouldn't be a lover of women in a biblical sense.
I would just be a womanizer.
I would be a pervert.
I'd be a loser.
I'd be some red pill guy who says get a vasectomy at 20 and never marry.
I repeat myself, a loser.
So that's not the way it works.
And with the Samaritan, people say, oh, but he's a Samaritan.
He's not even related.
And so this is the foreign immigrant kind of thing going on.
No, there's an argument for proximity.
Part of the Good Samaritan, theologically, what's baked into the equation there is this is not a Samaritan on the other side of the world.
This is a Samaritan who is.
Virtue Requires Community Ties00:06:10
literally walking right next to a guy who's been beaten up and left for debt.
And why is he obligated?
Because of their genetic ties?
No.
Because of religious ties?
No.
He's obligated because he's there.
He's right there.
He's right next door.
And the guy is right next to him, bleeding out, about to die.
And if he doesn't stop, no one else, it's not just that no one else will, no one else can.
No one else is around.
And so there is something to be said for, in terms of familial bonds, national bonds, So, kin is part, it comes into the equation.
Everyone's my neighbor.
But there's something to be said for family in terms of prioritizing one neighbor above the other.
There's also something to be said spiritually.
So, Galatians, Paul says, as often as you have opportunity, do good to all.
But especially, that is, prioritize the household of faith.
So, I'm called to, with my finances, practically, spiritually, at every level, emotionally, relationally, to prioritize my brothers and sisters in Christ above, you know, Jesus even says, whatever you do for the least of these.
And evangelicals have misinterpreted this for decades.
Oh, well, who's the least of these?
Who are the people on the margins?
Oh, well, it's the illegal immigrant who's being paid pennies on the dollar to do the work that white Americans don't want to do.
No, no, no.
Jesus specifically says, whatever you do for the least of these, my brothers.
If you visited, when I was in prison, you came and visited me.
When did we visit you?
Well, when you visited the least of these, my brothers.
The implication there is not that the Christians went and visited a rapist in jail.
No, the implication is they visited a Christian who was imprisoned for preaching Christ.
And the least of these, my brothers among Christians.
And as often as you do that, you've done it for Christ Himself.
So much like we've just, we've lost the thread.
We've entirely lost the theological thread of the order of loves.
Which neighbor we, everyone's your neighbor, sure.
But there is a hierarchy.
There's a hierarchy of obligations to neighbors.
So I have familial ties, I have church ties, my, you know, spiritual to my fellow believer.
And then I have national ties to my countrymen.
And then, if there's anything left over, then yeah, sure.
Then maybe I also support some mission agencies or institutions in a third world country that's helping with poverty or something like that.
I can consider that as well.
That's not wrong to do.
But we put the cart before the horse.
We just turned the whole thing on its head, where it's like my flesh and blood kids, I don't want them to be spoiled so they can fend for themselves.
And then the neighbor that I've never even met, and part of it is exactly what you said, Orn.
It's not because we grew in love, we became less loving.
It's because it was easy.
It's easy to love in theory.
It's easy to love the people that you've never met, right?
Plenty of people love the children in Uganda, but they can't get along with a roommate, right?
Yeah, I love all people except for the people that I happen to meet.
And then I realized that I'm actually not too good at love.
And that's, you know, so I don't know.
Any final thoughts?
I know we need to land the plane, but any final thoughts about your book or about.
What you know, what we need to do to fix this mess is there any hope?
What do you think?
Uh, like I said, I think we really are in the in this kind of the only way, uh, out is through scenario, and so I do think that I've said this I'm long on Americans, but I'm probably short on America as it stands now, the U.S. as it's constantly is this currently constituted as a political entity.
I think that basically civilization was just never meant to scale this way.
I think we've lost sight, as you say, of.
The condition of our neighbor because we've decided that everyone else is one.
And so we cannot take care of ourselves, our community, and we cannot provide for and share an identity that will kind of move our community forward.
And so I think, like I said, what is necessary really is to bind ourselves back into those tighter communities.
We have to go ahead and be, you know, geographically, yes, at first, but in every other way, reconstruct those intermediate institutions.
When de Tocqueville came to America, he wrote Democracy in America.
The reason he said it worked was because there are all these voluntary associations, all these different social clubs and churches and everything else that Americans spent a lot of their time.
They didn't spend a lot of time watching television, obviously, it didn't exist, but they didn't spend a lot of free time just idling away.
They bound themselves into these social institutions that created these different mutual aid societies and things that meant that the government didn't have to do this kind of thing for them.
And so it's that reinstantiation of virtue, but virtue, as Aristotle told us, can only be practiced inside a tradition, inside a community.
It can't be in some vast abstract way.
It has to be person to person, inside, again, bounded inside that shared understanding and identity.
And so that means if we're going to go ahead and create those intermediate institutions again that will allow us to devolve power away from the state and once again be a community, we have to take the responsibility onto ourselves.
We have to build stronger families, we have to build stronger churches.
We have to be willing to go out and care again for specific groups of people and ensure that their well being will continue before we can then expand that and share that with others.
And I think that's really the key to getting rid of much of what we're going through now is scaling things down, becoming local again, becoming personal again, and recognizing that we can't share.
There is no liberty without virtue, and that virtue can, again, only be practiced once we are in a community again.
Scaling Down to Care Locally00:00:29
Right.
That's great.
Well, thanks for coming on the show.
Your new book, The Total State, May 7th, it'll be available.
And people can follow you on Twitter, I assume?
Twitter, YouTube, Substack, Orrin McIntyre.
Of course, I'm on The Blaze as well.
Right.
On The Blaze with your podcast.
And is it just The Orrin McIntyre Show?
Orrin McIntyre Show.
I'm on Blaze TV and the podcast as well, all your favorite podcast platforms.