Mormonism, part of a broader restoration movement sharing end-times urgency with Jehovah's Witnesses, claims Joseph Smith restored true faith after early church corruption. Smith's background involved occult practices like treasure digging and scrying, leading to his conviction for witchcraft; he reportedly used a seer stone in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon rather than golden plates. Theology diverges sharply from orthodox Christianity, teaching God was once a man and humans can become gods via ordinances like baptism for the dead, while rejecting faith alone for salvation. Modern LDS universalism contrasts with fundamentalist groups led by figures like Warren Jeffs, yet both share antithetical biblical views on marriage and sinless perfectionism, prompting calls to help loved ones leave these cults. [Automatically generated summary]
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Mormonism's Restoration Movement00:10:40
Mormonism originated in the early 19th century in upstate New York, United States, with the visions and revelations experienced by Joseph Smith, Jr.
According to Smith's accounts, he received divine visitations from God the Father and Jesus Christ, as well as other heavenly beings, which led to the restoration of the true Christian faith.
These experiences ultimately led to the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, which Smith described as an ancient record of God's dealings with the inhabitants of the Americas.
The key beliefs of Mormonism include 1.
The Restoration.
Mormons believe that Joseph Smith restored the true Christian church.
And teachings that were lost or corrupted over time.
They view themselves as part of a restoration movement to bring back the original Christian faith.
Book 2.
The Book of Mormon.
Mormons consider the Book of Mormon to be scripture alongside the Bible.
They believe it contains the fullness of the gospel and provides additional insights into the teachings of Jesus Christ.
3.
Modern prophets and revelation.
Mormons believe in living prophets and continuous revelation from God.
They sustain the president of the church as a prophet, seer, and revelator.
4.
Temples and ordinances.
Mormons place significant emphasis on temple worship and ordinances such as baptism for the dead.
Eternal marriage, and other sacred rituals believed to be essential for salvation and exaltation.
The Church of Latter day Saints has grown into a global religion with millions of members worldwide, and it continues to be a significant presence in the contemporary religious landscape.
All right, here we are.
So this episode is on Mormonism.
We are talking about Mormonism.
Before we hop into some of the history, you got a little preview there in the cold open, but before we talk in some of the history and some of the The doctrine and the dangers.
I thought it could be cool just to right off the bat, because the one thing that stood out, lots of things, but one thing particularly that stood out with the cold open to me as you were reading that, Andrew, was it seems like a lot of cults, you know, there's some common denominator, you know, standard cult type practices and beliefs.
One of them seems to be this idea in terms of like Christian heresies, the cults that are, that play off of, of, Christian roots.
One of the commonalities that I've noticed is they seem to all have this mindset of a despising of church history.
And so it's like a first century, right?
Like the gospel accounts and the book of Acts, you know, and the Pauline epistles.
And then they pretty much, it seems kind of standard practice, they believe that the first century church was legit.
And then very, very early on, it was corrupted.
And then remained corrupted, right?
And they're not creedal usually.
They despise, you know, Nicene Creed, they despise Apostles' Creed, you know, Calcedon, you know, all these things, Athanasius Creed, and church history as a whole.
And so their mindset is first century was good, things got off the rails, and then whoever their seer, revelator is, Joseph Smith or fill in the blank, you know, basically God was doing something for 100 years in the New Testament.
And then it all stopped, and then we are, it didn't start back up again until us.
Isn't that pretty common for a lot of that's not just Mormonism?
No, that's the restoration movement in general you just described.
So, what are some other expressions of the restoration movement?
I guess that's my question.
Right.
Alexander Campbellite with the Church of Christ in the 1800s, and then we also have the Jehovah's Witnesses, which was actually at the tail end of the restorationist movement, talking about truth that was lost after the apostles and trying to regain what was done.
With the apostles for that church today.
You would have Ellen G. White, Seventh day Adventism.
Yeah.
That'd be another one.
Mary Baker Eddy.
That'd be one.
Another one that's a very one, it's really one of those cults.
I didn't realize just how much of a radicalized following they had at the time, and they still have to this day.
And there are many sects now and offshoots of it William Branham and the message.
He very much believed they all had a commonality where they believed there was a time where God is sort of, at least maybe there wasn't a complete apostasy.
That's what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, whom we're discussing, would adhere to.
A lot of times, just there wasn't as much as the presence of God's spirit.
But now, since we are now in the latter days, in this latter reign, and we're in the end times, there's now this resurgence of God's spirit and this now revival to where, you know, whoever the group is, we are the Noah's Ark.
We now have this embodiment of truth, or we now have this special anointing or blessing of God's spirit.
In this case, like the latter reign, William Brannan would adhere to that.
And therefore, that's how they would sort of separate the have, create the haves and the have-nots.
With that, could you also add and tell me if this fits?
But could you also add, say, okay, so one common denominator is most of them believe that right after the first century or shortly after, the church is derailed and everything is corrupted, you know, to varying degrees, but for the most part corrupted.
And now we, you know, with our founder of our movement, he got us back on track.
We're the true successors of the apostles.
So, there's always kind of like similar to Roman Catholicism, apostolic succession kind of view.
And with that, doesn't that affect at least at some level their eschatological view in terms of like, I guess my question is whether it be Jehovah's Witness or Seventh day Adventist or Mormons, I'm not aware of a lot of all millennial or post millennial cults.
Aren't they all pretty much premillennial?
They believe we, shortly after the first century, got corrupted.
Our guy got us back on track.
And why our guy at this time?
Because now is the last days.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Jesus, something big is going to happen, usually the return of Christ, and it'll probably be next Thursday.
Yeah.
Isn't that pretty standard, right?
That's not like a one off unique kind of thing.
It's kind of across the board, a common denominator.
Yeah.
Minus Mary Baker Eddy in Christian Science that Jerry described.
William Branham taught that it was the last days.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have multiple failed prophecies where they gave specific dates for the end times.
Latter day saints, it's in the name.
Of the LDS organization, straight up, Latter day Saints.
Even Joseph Smith gave a prophecy, he said, Yay, 57 years until he winds up on the scene within this generation, Christ would return.
Didn't happen.
So there's things that they even have to deal with.
But yes, absolutely, Latter day.
So could you kind of say, I'm being a little tongue in cheek here, you know, so let the listener understand this is at least 50% humor, but I think, you know, there might be some truth to it.
So it's worth saying, besides just making a joke.
You know how we said in one of our earlier episodes where we talked about witches?
And Jeremiah, you said not all feminists are witches, but all witches are feminists.
Yes.
Could we say not all premillennials are heretics, but all heretics are premillennials?
Well, yeah, I would say.
You know what I mean?
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Well, what I would say is that while, you know, from an evangelical standpoint within, you know, Christendom or those in evangelicalism, you've got multiple different views of eschological views.
All of them affirm the second advent, the final resurrection, the essentials of what's been in the creeds throughout Christian history.
And so you still are remaining within the realms of orthodoxy.
So you would see it in that respect.
Where it differs, the one thing though is that, you know, love John MacArthur, a lot I really appreciate about him.
But there is a commonality between that type of adherence to eschatology and the fact that nearly every historical cult that's come to resurgence in the last 200 years, they have had very much an end times view of that we are on the cusp of the end of all things, that Armageddon is here.
You need to, and we are the Noah's Ark, you need to come here, come hither as a hen gathers her chicks.
And that's really what happened.
And to be fair to MacArthur, he was saying, the Ark is not a type of the church, but a type of Christ.
So you don't need to come in here to us and our teachings, but you need to come to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So he would differ in that regard.
And of course, all three of us would say that we're grateful for him and that he is thoroughly Orthodox.
But you are right, though, in the sentiment, so not the exact substance of the doctrines, but the sentiment of this.
Uh, urgency, yeah, and even as post millennials, we share the gospel with a sense of urgency because not because we think Christ is going to come back in 15 minutes, although he could, but um, but it's not because so much of the imminent return of Christ, uh, but it's because, uh, as Paul Walsh would say, uh, whether he uh returns, whether he returns, or whether we die and go meet with him, either way, time is short, right?
So, there's always that element, right?
Regardless of your eschatology, is uh, the scripture one thing that we know for sure no man knows the day or the hour of the return of Christ.
But we do know that the life of man is like a vapor here today and gone by, not just tomorrow, but by lunch, you know, like the dew of the grass.
And so we always, regardless of our eschatology, if we're faithful Christians, we have an urgency in doing the work of an evangelist and in our ministry.
But we don't have a sense, it could happen.
No man knows the day or the hour, including the postmillennial.
But we don't have a general sense that many postmillennials would even use kind of this kind of language and saying, Um, that it's possible, not definitive, but it's possible that we may still be in a sense a part of the early church.
Whereas it seems like most Christian cults are all have in common that we are way past the early church.
This is the latter days that you know, some will say it's the final minute or the final hour, the final, you know, like, and uh, and that seems to be, and in that sense, that does share with a dispensational premillennial like.
Cults and Destructive Beliefs00:03:18
MacArthur.
Right.
Yeah.
And just like two.
The timeline shares.
Yeah.
So, two, two, even like really definitive examples in relation to the kingdom of the cults, two notable characters was Reverend Jim Jones, who, you know, he started off in Indiana and his ministry, his quote unquote ministry, his group, the People's Temple, it was initially based in Indiana.
And what he did to coerce his followers to move from Indiana all the way out to the San Francisco and LA area, they had locations of the People's Temple in both cities.
Is that he had this very apocalyptic end times vision that there's going to be nuclear fallout, specifically in the Midwest.
And he utilized that as a catalyst to get his loyalists and his followers out to the West, out to California.
You had the same thing.
You know, I think when we at some point, if we end up talking about the whole situation, Waco, that took place in 1993, that was an eschatological end times group that ultimately David Koresh believed that he had special insight into the book of Revelation.
And what and final afternoon is a 51 day standoff between the U.S. government agencies, between the FBI, the ATF, between the Branch Davidians.
I mean, it was this huge event that captured the fascinating of the world for 51 days.
And at the very end, before this incident, before it went up in flames, David Crush's negotiation was like, hey, I just need to finish my manuscript of my unveiling of my interpretation of the seven seals.
So he only got the first one done.
The manuscript of the first seal is actually out there.
You can look it up online.
And if his interpretation of the first seal in Revelation, he wanted to do all of them.
But day 51 happened and there's a bunch of chaos that incurred.
But my point being, is that classic FBIL.
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So that's all.
Man, I can't wait when we do our own series on that.
But at the end of the day, you're looking at a view of dispensational eschatology that came from the 1800s of this restorationist movement.
The branch Davidians were a brand where it was a spinoff of Seventh day Adventism.
So you saw that.
And I think for me, just earlier this week, it was on Monday.
Was that the eclipse?
The eclipses on Monday?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we had a fascination where everyone's looking out to the skies and what you saw.
where there's a lot of people on TikTok and different socials who believe they had this special new understanding that this is a sign from the heavens.
And there's so many people that just lapped it up hook, line, and sinker.
And what my takeaway was that there are so many, there's nothing new really under the sun.
We think that we are so smart.
We are so sophisticated.
Well, I would never be somebody like Jim Jones.
I would never go down and drink the Kool-Aid like Jim Jones.
That's such a pejorative now.
Oh, I would never get sucked into what would be one of those brainwashed cult members.
But you see people who are, you know, even on Christian networks who are making the most ridiculous out of context, twisting scripture to make what happened a couple of days ago and that's come and gone.
Articles of Faith Explained00:02:17
And now they have to explain it away.
What you see, the fact that they're just people in droves today who are lapping up so many of those influencers' claims about their esoteric understanding of what was taking place in the constellations just a couple of days ago and that's come and gone.
It goes to show just.
How susceptible people are into getting into destructive cults.
So, there really is nothing new under the sun.
Yeah.
Amen, dude.
Well said.
Getting back into some Joseph Smith and some Mormonism, you said something interesting that I hear from Mormons even today that they're not creedal, right?
That they don't follow more of like the mainline teachings of the apostles.
But what's actually interesting about Mormonism is it is creedal.
There's 13 articles of faith within Mormonism.
Exactly.
And it's not that.
Not whether but which.
Everyone has a creed.
It's either historic and true and tried or.
Yeah.
I mean, their articles of faith are from Joseph Smith and it's like divine revelation.
And that's their creed.
Right.
Exactly.
And so they'll argue essentially that, yes, it's after the death of the apostles.
Well, according to Mormonism, John never died.
That's a weird one, right?
But what's true is actually they challenge before that.
They say what?
They say the eighth article of faith.
We believe the Bible insofar as it is translated correctly, right?
And they also believe that the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.
So what that means is that they're actually challenging Scripture in and of itself.
Right?
So, scripture to them is not 100% accurate.
So, in terms of sola scriptura, as the Old and New Testament, we see it being the sole and fallible rule of faith and practice, they say that's wrong.
And they say that many different restorationist movements do that as well.
So, the Watchtower Tract Society and the Jehovah's Witnesses will say, yes, we have the Bible, we have the New World Translation, their own, but it needs to be interpreted through an organization or an individual to go to the person.
You can't read it for yourself and get the fullness of truth and revelation.
But what's funny about Joseph Smith, Mormonism is that we have this young farm boy, like growing up in parts of Vermont and then eventually moving to Palmyra with his family.
But I want to talk kind of about his family and before his own revelations and what they were involved in.
Joseph Smith's Occult Roots00:02:41
It's notable that Joseph Smith grew up in a family that was involved in occult practices.
Remember, we talked about the Hermetic tradition and the occult philosophy in our previous episodes.
Remember the very basic premise of Hermeticism, right?
That we are of the same substances of God, but it's through rites and rituals that we can progress to this godhood.
Okay.
Mormonism, we are of the same substance as God, and it's through rites and rituals within the temple and ordinances in which we can progress to become what?
Gods.
Gods, yes.
So, in terms of the life that Joseph Smith lived and the fabric of this early part of American history, The magic, the folk magic that was going on was prevalent all throughout Palmyra, New York, right?
His father was invested in treasure digging.
They were invested in dowsing.
And dowsing is a form of scrying, in a sense.
And scrying is something I mentioned earlier.
I forgot the word for it, but I was just remembering in my notes where the earliest forms of scrying would be looking into a river, looking at a reflection for a long time to see something, to view something, to get secret information.
Also, scrying would be.
I think it's Snow White's evil stepmother staring in a mirror, right?
Exactly.
That's a form of scrying.
Especially like a black.
So, like a reflective obsidian or some kind of black.
So, I know, even some people are concerned about.
No, I disagree with this, but some people would be concerned about a television that just having it hanging on the wall as it's turned off and it's reflective and it's black and that it's mirror, mirror on the wall kind of.
Situation.
I'm not saying that you know that necessarily has to be your view, but my point is that's uh that goes back to scrying.
That's what somebody who would have that view is someone who is uh they're right in a sense that like they are aware that there are ancient occult practices, yeah.
I mean, deal with and again, a lot of times we even look at something like that.
Again, we were talking about as we've talked throughout our extended series of podcasts in this season here is about one versus two.
There are presuppositions that come with scrying.
The presuppositions like a mirror is a mirror.
Like, I woke up this morning, I look at the damage that had been done from the night before.
And, you know, and that mirror led me, it's like, I better jump in the shower.
It's time to get going for day two of our podcasting.
But that's just a reflection.
Those are just elements that were made by somebody who makes a mirror that are just part of God's world.
The Mirror Reflection Metaphor00:02:45
And that's not anything that we should fear.
But the presupposition of someone who's a pagan, they would look at a mirror and believe that there is a blending of both.
Spiritual within the physical elements.
There's no distinction between what spirit, like everything is spiritual.
So if you are, as a Christian, if you're looking at that, being paranoid about it, you're giving credence to a worldview that's antithetical to that.
You're assuming a blending between the material and the immaterial.
You're thinking like a oneness.
So, I think of a Christian struggling with that, I think they just need to renew their mind and understand no, you don't live in a world of one, you live in a world of two.
So, don't live in fear.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Real quick, before we continue with the show, I wanted to let you know that this is actually just one episode of a 10 part series that we will be slowly releasing to the public on places like YouTube and your favorite podcast platform over the coming months.
However, If you want to get all 10 of these episodes right now, early access and ad free, we are making them available exclusively for our Patreon members over at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
Here are the titles for just a few of those episodes.
We've got transhumanism and artificial intelligence, we also have DMT and the astral realm, we also have neopaganism.
And another of my favorite episodes is an entire episode devoted to the grays.
So, again, head on over to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries and sign up for our silver tier, which is just $5 a month.
And you'll be able to get all 10 of these episodes ad free right now.
And if you join us at the gold tier for just $10 a month, you'll get early access ad free for the full 10 episodes plus an additional live stream.
That I and the guys who join me for this series, that's Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Suncrant, the three of us will be doing live streams where we'll be taking questions from you, our gold tier Patreon members, and providing for you the best answers that we possibly can from the Word of God.
So don't delay.
Go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries and become a supporter today.
And that said, if you're a Christian and you don't want a TV in your house, not because of scrying, but because you just don't want to.
Watch a bunch of garbage as a family, then that's totally fine too.
That's a really reasonable.
Yeah, but go in the story, Andrew.
It's so fascinating.
First Vision Accounts Analyzed00:15:37
Yeah, so it is noted that Joseph Smith's parents were into these occult practices.
For example, Joseph Smith was born in December, so they thought there was going to be something very special about him.
Also, it's noted that his mother stated that he was born with a cowl over his head, and a cowl is being born with part of the amniotic sac over his head.
The top of the head, right?
And the belief is, according to these superstitious beliefs, that this person would be essentially a prophet, a seer, or a revelator.
So, this is also noted that people who, when they would travel on ships back in the day, when we use ships to travel across the ocean or Great Lakes, they would carry cows with them actually in their pockets, parts of amniotic sacks, because it actually protected them from their ship sinking.
So, it's a very superstitious belief that dates back even prior to Joseph Smith.
But his father, his mother were very superstitious.
They even have not just a little stitchers.
No, superstitious.
She practiced like palm reading, right?
She was even someone that was noted as being really into healing with herbs back in the day, but that could also take a really weird turn, you know?
Also into palm reading and also phrenology, which is reading parts of the shape of the head in order to understand personality.
You can go and look at Mormon magazines.
This is prior to Ensign magazine, but early in the 1900s, late 1800s, there's actual full phrenology charts.
In their own magazines, and phrenology is superstitious.
It is occultic.
It's a form of essentially like knowing your personality through astrology and horoscopes, but going through the shape of your brain in your head, right?
Anyways, Joseph Smith, they end up moving to Palmyra.
And here in Palmyra is when Joseph Smith really starts learning quite a bit about treasure digging from his father.
Okay.
Explain treasure digging because you mentioned that in a previous episode and I nodded my head and said, oh, but I don't know what it is.
Right.
So, I mean, I just finished reading Treasure Island with my kids.
I understand literal treasure digging.
Good book.
But I have a feeling you're talking about something different.
So different.
Okay.
So, if someone wants to go through a deep rabbit hole, I recommend the book called Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview, written by Michael Quinn.
He was actually an LDS individual who wrote it.
He was excommunicated for this book.
It's a really thick book.
Wasn't he a BYU professor?
I believe so, yeah.
He died even as someone who still believed in the LDS organization, but he wanted them to get back to the roots of their magic.
Okay.
So, when we're talking about treasure digging in the 19th century, it was a belief that spirits, We were in control of treasures that were hidden underground.
And these treasures can move from here or to there.
And guess what protected these treasures?
Gnomes.
According to the book called The Magus, which is an occultic book that gives instructions on how you are to perform rites and rituals in order to achieve the ability to get the treasure without it moving from one place to another.
So these treasure diggers were very well trained with The Magus on how to perform these rites and rituals to get the treasure.
Needless to say, the treasure moved a lot.
Because something wasn't performed correctly, right?
There is evidence of a ritualistic dagger that Joseph Smith Sr. had.
He actually gave it to his son Hiram, which is Joseph Smith's older brother.
And there are photos of it.
You can go look at it.
This dagger is about eight inches long on the blade, and it has the seal of Jupiter, I believe also a seal of Mars.
And this is a ritualistic dagger that would have been used during the rituals on treasure digging to try to get the treasure to stay put.
Needless to say, Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph Smith Jr., they were involved in treasure digging and something also called dowsing, which is trying to find or locate water with a stick of typical witch hazel.
So, all of these practices are forms of divination, okay?
So, let's remember this, okay?
According to the Bible in Deuteronomy 18, these things are called an abomination to God.
I'm gonna throw some things at you that's very interesting.
1820 is when Joseph Smith was supposedly had his first vision account.
What happened in the first vision account, Jerry?
He believed that he saw two distinct personages.
He went to pray to see which church was true.
And then two distinct personages in separate form, in separate person, totally separate from each other in bodily form, the father and the son.
And then the father introduces the son and says, This is my beloved son, hear him.
And then Joseph Smith asks which church was true.
And then he instructs them.
This is in Joseph Smith history.
This is in the front of any Book of Mormon, anybody who has a quad, which is the Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price.
And he says, No, do not join any of them.
For all the professors are corrupt, all the creeds are an abomination in God's sight.
They confess them with their mouth.
They have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and so forth and so on.
Okay, so we have God the Father and God the Son, two separate beings appearing to Joseph Smith.
I'm not gonna get into the intricacies of the differencing of the first visions and how that adopted first vision story was actually recorded at least, I believe, 15 to 16 years later after it supposedly happened.
The earliest first vision account that was recorded is in 1832, has no mention of God the Father and God the Son, and that's actually by Joseph Smith's own hand.
You can look that up yourself.
But 1820 is when he has his supposed first vision.
He's around 15 years old, right?
Well, what does he do from 1820 then to around 1825, 1826?
Do you think he lives a holy life?
No.
No, what does he do?
He's treasure digging.
Why would God come to somebody and then this person is continuing in what is called an abomination to God?
I see.
It's really weird to me.
I mean, he did the most of his treasure digging in these years.
Gotcha.
Like, what in the world?
A lot of people are doing these specific practices to con people.
And that's one of the reasons why.
Joseph Smith, it's actually a matter of public record.
It's in the state of New York.
There is a public arrest record that you can see where Joseph Smith was arrested.
He was tried and convicted for glass looking.
Grind, yes.
You know, primarily because you're really dealing with a society at that time that had principles based off of God's law.
And so they actually had rules and regulations against practicing divination because it was harmless to one's neighbor.
So a lot of really, even that prosecution came about by really applying.
Principles from God's law into a society.
That's pretty horrible.
So you're saying this is public New York record that he was arrested, tried, and found guilty, but not for theft or for murder, but for witchcraft.
Glass looking.
Yep, which is a form of witchcraft.
And this is after 8 Towers.
And this was considered illegal by the state of New York, but we've never been a Christian nation.
Right.
And also, it would have been a form of theft.
So you have that.
Because he was caughting people.
He was caughting people too.
But what is just.
Very interesting about even Joseph Smith's upbringing.
I believe there was a period when he was young where I can't remember the.
Do you remember there was an event where he obtained a substantial injury where he was debilitated?
Very young.
Very, very, very young.
He had a deteriorating bone disease in his leg that was going to kill him, by the way.
And there was a doctor who had a new technique instead of cutting off the actual limb, they could go in there and remove that part of the bone.
Mind you, there's no anesthesia during this time.
He is young, He's around, oh man, I wish I could remember the date off the top of my head.
I think he's like around eight to 11 years old.
He just doesn't even drink any whiskey, nothing like that, takes no medicine.
They cut him open, go into his leg, and remove that part of his leg.
So he walked with a limp essentially, kind of like for the rest of his life after that.
Yeah, and there's a lot of commentaries given on Mormonism.
People who have looked at Joseph Smith's upbringing and would even say that, I mean, you'll see as Mormonism progresses, is that Joe Smith was a very imaginative person.
There are a lot of people who could give credence to that incident to where he had this injury because he was basically bedridden.
He was unable to move.
So he imagined just sitting there eight to nine hours a day, especially if you think about where I was when I was eight or nine, I was so imaginative.
I mean, I just love that era of my life.
And that you imagine just sitting there and you're under the influence.
The main influence you have are your parents who are glass lookers, they're sorcerers, they're involved in all these things.
So you're doing that.
On top of your imagination, and so he you end up seeing that really assimilated, uh, as far as just how imaginative and I think that he comes with and really laying the groundwork to which is you know one pretty much the quintessential American religion, right?
So we have 1820, the supposed first vision account, right?
And then September 21st of 1823, we actually have another vision that Joseph Smith has, and this is when Moroni, an angel, appears to him over a period of nine hours overnight.
What's funny about this, and I believe it's Oliver Cowdery who records this, which is a friend of Joseph Smith, that prior to this night, they were out treasure digging before Moroni the angel appears to him in his house, okay, at nighttime.
But what's funny is in the book called The Magus that details how to do certain magic rites and rituals, it states that the veil between God and man is the thinnest on September 21st.
So, why is it then that it's September 21st after doing hours of treasure digging that Joseph Smith goes to his room to pray?
Is when the being appears, right?
So we have C.S. Lewis, right?
Liar, Lord, or Lunatic, or whatever the three is.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Which one is he?
Which one is Joseph when we're talking about this?
Did he actually have visions?
Was he just a con man?
Did something come to him?
Was it the same spirit that appeared to Muhammad, right?
That said very similar things to Joseph?
This is the world that we're living in.
I think it's a blend between a liar and also a lunatic in terms of something confusing him.
Right.
Yeah.
That it's not just that he's.
The point you're making is it's not just that he's a con man, but it's not less than that.
He is a con man.
What does the devil do?
He cons con men.
That's right.
Yeah, exactly.
But it's not just that he came up with all of it on his own to con others.
He probably did see something because we live in God's magical world.
Yep.
And it is filled with incredible things and also dark and terrible things.
Right.
So, what does this angel then tell Joseph Smith in this vision?
He tells him, well, there's these golden plates that are located on this hill, Hill Cumorah.
The next day, He goes to work at his father's, but again, he, because they had their own farm, he'd been up all night.
He was tired.
So he told his father, I need to go back home.
His dad's like, okay.
Moroni appears again the very next day to him.
And he goes and instantly tells his father.
His father's like, wow, this is amazing.
But he eventually goes to the hill Gomorrah to find where the golden plates are, which would have been the Book of Mormon, right?
And Moroni essentially appears to him and says, You are not worthy enough to grab the plates.
So, Joseph Smith goes back to the hill, same day, year after year, was never worthy to get the plates until he finds, moves away, eventually finds Emma, marries Emma, comes back, and now he's worthy enough, he's married to grab the plates from the hill Cumorah.
And then he translates the supposed Book of Mormon from then over a period of, I forget how long it took, maybe like a year.
And there it goes.
1830 is the year the Book of Mormon is actually published.
But the question is, were there plates?
Did he actually translate plates by looking at them?
And the answer is, No, he translated the plates, what is found out by scrying.
He was looking at a stone in a hat.
You talked about the black, right?
He put a stone in a hat and he would close it off and look at just straight up blackness.
But the words would appear to him and he would have someone write down the words that were being spoken.
Right.
And also, I think just for social context, you know, cities and towns have associations.
So we are right outside of Austin.
Like, what's something that comes to mind with Austin?
Like, what's the first thing that comes to mind?
You think Austin, what comes to mind?
Uh, Demonic Democrats.
Okay, right.
Well, it's known as for sure like liberal city.
Like the one thing we were discussing, we were driving over here and I saw 10 years ago was the amount of homelessness, homelessness, and homelessness.
That's also Democrat.
Right.
Yeah.
Democrats and homeless people, but I repeat myself.
Yeah.
We were discussing the assumption like you associate with San Francisco.
And knowing the state of the world right now, we know the type of shape that a place like San Francisco is.
And so that's the association that comes to mind.
So the area we're talking about, Joseph Smith.
And his family, but it's not just exclusive to them.
The demographic that they're living in is a place called Palmyra, New York.
And if you actually look at any of the historical records at the time, you had, it was just a plethora of witchcraft and superstition.
All sorts of different false prophets were here and there.
And there's a story of somebody who was convinced that the Advent was going to happen on this particular day.
They went out into the woods right outside of Palmyra, New York.
They're all dressed in white gowns, kind of waiting for the Advent and the Ascension to come that came and went.
And so there are all of these different practices just full of superstition.
And in fact, what you end up Even hearing, and this was a matter of public record in the public newspapers, there were rumors about potentially that there could have been plates that were outside somewhere right outside the city that maybe were from the Americas that could have been connected from the Israelites who may have come over to the Americas.
So you're actually seeing sort of this just rumors like a tabloid's like talking about this.
So he takes and incorporates that story.
There was a book that was published.
You're the Hebrews.
Yeah, View of the Hebrews.
I think his name was Ethan something or other.
And this book, A View of the Hebrews, propagates the same story that there is a portion of these Israelites that made their way over to the Americas.
And he kind of has this whole theory about all the South Americans and that these are actually like an extension of the true Israel.
And of course, that's.
Like the Lost 10 Tribes.
Yeah.
It was a common belief back then.
Right.
So this is.
And Joseph Smith really, this is the premise that really gets opened up right away.
In the Book of Mormon.
And then you also have Jesus who comes to the Americas.
And that's what's so fascinating is that, you know, even for me, the very first time I read the Book of Mormon, it's like, wait a minute, I'm seeing Jesus ascend down to the Americas.
So he basically, he didn't ascend.
We all know the ascension.
He didn't go and sit at the right hand of the Father.
No, he sort of ascends and he kind of just works his way over.
He takes a one way charter flight to the Americas and he just comes down and he decides to speak the Sermon on the Mount.
Now, given that Joseph Smith believed that these places he found were in Reformed Egyptian, there's no etymologist who would even ascribe that such a language even exists.
This is a language that Joseph Smith made up, and he allocates that Jesus came down, and this is before the King James Bible even existed.
And from Reformed Egyptian, he translates the Sermon on the Mount in perfect King James English.
Wild Ride Through Missouri00:02:44
Is there anything that's kind of off with this as far as.
That there's something that something is off as far as the time wise.
How do you translate something into a language before that translation is even exists?
So you have that.
So, what you end up seeing when you start to see all of Joseph Smith's stories again, he would be somebody who would be like he was a pagan, he was somebody who was involved in occult practices.
Not so he not only was a liar and a con man and he was manipulative, but he also was a syncretist.
Just like the pagans are, so he would take a little bit of here, a little bit of that, and a little bit of that.
So you take some of the folklore, he would take the superstitious interests that his neighbors and community would have, he would take the tabloids and these other views, and he figured out a way to incorporate it all together.
And also, not only that, he would give the full accolades to himself, but these were his specific revelations.
And so that's kind of what you see as far as the very early origins of Mormonism.
He Have this very charismatic following.
And then, as he progressed and as he worked his way out towards, as he advanced his way out west, there were areas of persecution and conflict that came there.
It is a wild ride.
It is a wild ride.
So, we've done two seasons so far called A Slow Burn of Mormon History.
It's only available on Coltish All Access.
You can get it on Apologia Studios.
The first 10 episodes are up.
So, just the first season is up.
And we only went like four years or five years into Joseph Smith history.
Like, it's going to take a while to get through all of it.
It is an absolute wild ride.
Starts off in Palmyra, gets down into Kirtland, Ohio, because Sidney Rigdon, who was once a Church of Christ member, friend of Alexander Campbell, actually had a disagreement with Alexander Campbell, had his own little commune in Kirtland, and he gets converted to Mormonism.
And so, Palmyra group goes down to Kirtland.
They kind of like live in a Goshen area off of Kirtland because they don't blend perfectly with Signe Rigdon's group.
Going to give just like a really fast overview.
So, Joseph gets a revelation that this group now needs to move to Independence, Missouri, which is the promised land, like essentially like a Garden of Eden.
And from there, there's just all kinds of crazy stuff happens.
Ends up where Joseph Smith, because there's so much conflict going on in Missouri, they end up moving to Illinois.
And Joseph Smith ends up dying later in like the 1840s.
But in between those times, his theology was constantly changing, right?
So within the Book of Mormon, you find a modalistic God that then changes.
Modalism vs Trinity Debate00:11:57
There's no Trinity.
Sometimes people like to say, well, the Trinity is in the Book of Mormon.
No, it's modalism.
It says that the Father is the Son, very clearly.
Define, I'm aware, but for the listener, not everybody is familiar.
What's modalism?
Yeah.
So modalism, Patrick, is the fact that God revealed himself as the Father, let's say in the Old Testament, and coming with the flesh, he reveals himself as now the Son, like God wears masks or takes modes essentially.
Then, after God the Son, he reveals himself as the Holy Spirit that indwells his followers.
So, God has forms and modes.
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It would exactly, yeah, it would be like so it's always.
Kind of a risky, and I would suggest not doing it, but to give illustrations or analogies for the Trinity.
Yes.
Because they all break apart.
So bad.
So, like, partialism would be like, you know, the God, you know, the Trinity is like a three leaf clover, right?
But no, but that a three leaf clover, that would mean that, you know, the Father is a third of God and the Son is, you know, so it's partialism.
So it's, you know, one Trinity, but each of the three persons only make up a portion of the Godhead.
Whereas modalism is different, the analogy that equates to modalism, people think, oh, this is a good analogy for the Trinity, and it's not because what it really illustrates is modalism and not biblical Trinitarian doctrine, would be H2O, water.
So, saying, you know, well, water, it's the same molecule, but it can exist in three modes or forms, right?
You have water, ice, and steam, and the Trinity is like that.
No, it's not because that would be the same H2O molecule.
But not simultaneously, eternally and simultaneously existing in three, but one molecule that is shifting.
It's heated up enough to where now it's steam and then it's cooled down.
Now it's liquid, right?
So, like steam, liquid, ice, you know, solid.
And now it's cooled down even further.
Now it's ice.
That is not the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
The Trinity is not that there was God the Father, then He became God the Son, and then He became God.
God the Holy Spirit.
Instead, what we see in scripture in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.
So you have two persons simultaneously and eternally in eternity past, right there.
And then further from John 1, and then you can get into like the baptism of Jesus is a great picture of simultaneously all three persons represented.
The Father is speaking, the Spirit is descending, and the Son is there being baptized.
And it's not the Father, and then He shifts into the Spirit.
Descending as a dove, then manifest as the Son.
Now, the Son is standing there the whole time as the Father speaking and as the Spirit's descending.
They're all three simultaneously existing as three distinct persons, but with one divine essence.
Amen.
That's right.
And so, what we find with Joseph Smith's theology, because we'll get into some of that right now, I think it's very important for the listener to understand well, what do Mormons even believe today?
Just like that was kind of like history in a nutshell, shotgun version of, uh, Mormon history.
There's so much more.
But you're saying doctrine, in terms of their Trinitarian doctrine, they are modalist.
Well, they were at one point, not anymore.
No, no, no, no.
So they actually.
Because now they would deny the deity of.
Right, yeah.
So what happens is we have the Book of Mormon, which is supposed to be the truest of all true books on earth, okay?
But that's actually not enough.
That's not enough revelation.
Joseph Smith gives something called the King Follett Discourse.
And in the King Follett Discourse sermon, which was given after the death of King Follett, Which is not an actual king, it's a name.
What happens is, he states this.
He says, No one has ever given the revelation that I'm about to give.
The knowledge that we have of God as of today is considered to be that of the beasts.
So when he says this, he's saying, Not even Jesus Christ gave you the revelation of God that's sufficient.
He's also saying, Not even the Book of Mormon is sufficient for you.
And then he continues to say, We have all got to learn to become gods.
As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become.
That's the Lorenzo Snow couplet, who is a prophet of Mormonism.
Uh, that summarizes the King Follett discourse.
We have all got to learn to become gods.
God the Father was once a man who learned to become a god.
As you can see, that's totally different theology than you can even grab from the Book of Mormon.
And he has supplemental revelation for that in the Pearl of Great Price, right?
And the Book of Abraham.
But, um, what else, Jerry?
Yeah, well, just give me an example like one aspect of both syncretism and continued revelation, the involvement of Justice's theology.
That there were just some instances regarding just the happen as.
Challenges that you had as a brand new and aspiring cult leader.
You don't always hit the ground running.
There's a couple of hiccups that basically it was a point to where there were a lot of loyal followers who were beginning to really question Joseph.
And so the amount of people who would be considered true believers, like he was kind of, he needed to pull off something big to get people to continue to follow with him because there was a lot of persecution going on at that time against those who were Latter day Saints, as you would call them.
And what ended up happening is that there was a huge fascination at the time in Egyptology and in the different Egyptian artifacts.
So there was a person that sort of had this sort of caravan and display of, you'd kind of go as people like you've seen in old Westerns.
They kind of go through and they've got a whole showmanship of display.
Hey, I have all these things from Egypt or wherever.
And this comes across Joseph Smith and he's brought to it and he's fascinated by it.
And so he buys all these amounts.
He uses the church's money and he buys all of these.
Egyptian artifacts, and he comes to a revelation that I've discovered the lost books of Abraham.
And he goes, he then proceeds on to translate that.
Now, given this is before the Rosetta Stone is discovered, and there's a true way to understand and interpret the papyrus, he believes he found, and you can see the manuscripts, the facsimiles in the book, in the Pearl of Great Price to this day.
And he believes that it indicates the book of Abraham.
This is a lost book of Abraham that happened when he was over in Egypt.
And I'll give you a supercliff notes version is that.
They believe that after Joseph Smith was killed, that I believe that those books, those possessions, as far as the translations that Joseph Smith had, they went into, there's a fragmentation between Emma Smith, Joseph Smith's original wife, and Brigham Young.
So you have the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then you have Brigham Young's group that eventually went and migrated in Utah, where you have a church plant at.
And everyone thought that those were lost, that there's no way to have found them.
So, of course, the Rosetta Stone, then not too long after this incident happened, after Joseph Smith died, that is discovered.
And now there's actually a way to understand and to translate these Egyptian manuscripts.
So, those items, those artifacts that Joseph Smith translated went to this museum in Chicago.
And many people thought that these documents were destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire.
Now, later on, which, you know, finding it's in the 1940s or 1950s, and sometime around that time, I don't have the exact date off the top of my head, but there is somebody who is working in this museum, and all of a sudden it's like, wait a minute, that looks familiar.
And lo and behold, they recognize this as the original documents that Joseph Smith would have translated.
So at that time, the LDS church was ecstatic about it.
It was all over Inside Magazine.
They were excited because this is going to vindicate before the world that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.
I mean, this was.
The talk of the town, as they are very, very public about it.
Well, after a while, they became very, very quiet about it, and it just sort of became, they just sort of moved on with it.
And the reason being is that they found out that this was indeed not the book of Lost, the book of Abraham, that in fact, this was an occultic Egyptian funerary text from Osiris, the book of breathings.
The book of breathings.
And so it was really the actual facsimile.
The original facsimile, if you look at it in the Pearl of Great Price, it's supposed to have Abraham laying down with his hand up, like reaching his hands up to God.
But in reality, Joseph Smith took this missing fragment and drew it in.
The original facsimile that they were able to connect this to is actually very sexually explicit.
It's actually an Egyptian god that is grabbing its own phallus.
And is performing a sexual favor.
So it is something that is not what it said.
Joseph Smith took, for example, he took something that would have been one word in Egyptology, translated through Is that a stone?
And he puts two or three paragraphs out of it.
There's a great book.
I don't know if it's still published anymore, but it's called Upon His Own Hands.
And it goes through, it has photographs of the actual document.
So what you end up seeing is something that is a piece of.
Like, this is him being a con man.
And there might have been the level of narcissism where he truly believed what he believed.
You know, those people who end up lying so much, they truly believe their own lies.
That could have been what happened.
But what you end up seeing when you come to Mormon history is that there is a saying that says, Wisdom is justified by her own children, or sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree when you actually see descendants several generations imitating that.
So you end up later in the 1900s, you also have someone by the name of Mark Hoffman.
Who was depicted in this Netflix documentary called Murder Among the Mormons?
And he was an expert forger of documents.
He ends up conning the LDS church into believing that he had specialized documents from them.
Celestial Kingdom Atonement00:14:47
And then, as he, in this whole story, as he got exposed, he tried to set up some pipe bombs to kill people, which actually happened.
And so, you have this dichotomy within Mormonism right now where Mormonism has gone through from being very objective, believing in Joseph Smith, that this is objectively.
All the churches were apostate, and that now we have a new revealed truth through Joseph Smith, through his private revelations, and then through the continued prophets.
There's always a representative of Mormonism, where now, just in the last 20 to 30 years, they've gone through this postmodern shift where they become more progressive, more liberal, more universalistic, where they were before they would adhere to this very distinctive, like, hey, we are the true church, you are all false.
To being very universalistic, very Unitarian, like, hey, we're all Christians, we're all in this together.
They won't go and condemn people where they used to be very objective before.
And so it ends up happening.
You were telling me this the other night when we watched Under the Banner of Heaven, when you see people who are radicalists, like the Lafferty brothers who committed murders or someone like Warren Jeffs, they're actually a lot more consistent with the, they're a consistent Mormon versus the modern day Mormon.
So what you're having right now is you have the modern day LDS church, which is becoming a lot more progressive.
Downtown Salt Lake around June, like it's Pride Flag Central everywhere.
And now it's Pride, whatever the Transjango Stripe of the Week is.
And so you have that.
But then you have this dichotomy between the younger generation, the older generation, but also the church becoming a lot more progressive.
But as that happens, that is radicalizing the fundamentalist Mormons, who actually are a lot more, I'll call them even Orthodox Mormons.
And now what they're doing, they're arguing that the original church.
That Joseph restored has gone apostate, and the restoration needs a restoration.
So it almost becomes kind of like a circular, it's almost oneness where it's almost like this karmic cycle going on.
So it's been a fascinating thing to unravel.
It's going to be very interesting to see where the Mormon church goes in the next several decades.
I know.
Wow.
I thought we were going to be able to handle all of their theology within an episode, but I guess not.
Yeah.
Man, I want to give a Cliff Notes version, but I don't want to leave anyone confused.
But Mormonism, Paul warns about the belief of not specifically Mormonism, but what the tenets are essentially in 2 Corinthians 11, verse 4.
Paul warns that there will be people who are these false super apostles who come into the church and they preach a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit.
So, let me just in a nutshell explain that with regards to Mormonism how their Jesus is different, how their gospel is different, and how their spirit is different.
Yeah, that'd be helpful.
Yeah, that would be helpful.
So, Jesus, according to Mormonism, is the firstborn literal.
Spiritual son of Elohim, who is God, and heavenly mother.
We won't get into the conversation if it's heavenly mothers in plural.
We'll just say, for the sake of conversation today, Elohim and heavenly mother.
He's the firstborn, meaning that he is not the eternal God.
Okay.
Number one, he is a created being, right?
What do we know about Jesus?
John chapter one, in the beginning was the word.
The word was with God.
The word was God.
All things were created through him.
There's nothing that came into being unless it was created through Jesus.
Colossians one, 16, Jesus Christ created all things on heaven.
And on earth, visible and invisible, we find a blatant contradiction because the Jesus Christ of Mormonism did not create Lucifer.
He's the brother of Lucifer.
The Bible says, no, he did.
He made things that are visible and invisible.
So if we have a different Jesus, we're going to end up also getting a different gospel.
That's just the reality of it.
So the gospel in Mormonism is the third article of faith.
Do you know it off the top of your head?
The third article of faith, which is that we believe that through the atonement of Christ, All mankind may be saved, but by continued obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
See, he knows it, man.
Jerry's been doing this stuff for years.
Absolutely.
So, where's the false gospel there?
The second part.
Well, actually, even the first part, too.
Right.
Because it is, in a sense, they are universalistic.
So, when they say atonement, what they believe that the atonement entails is not God's elect, God's chosen people.
But what they believe is that the atonement, the only thing that the atonement guarantees, Excise for ex Mormons is the basic general guarantee to be resurrected on the last day.
But since there are three levels of heaven the celestial, the terrestrial, and the telestial, you know, the celestial and terrestrial kingdom is that is depending on how obedient you are, if you are a loyal Mormon to whom much is given, much is required, how obedient you are, whether you are sealed in a temple marriage for all time and eternity, whether or not you are consistently a tither and a giver, because in order to do what is in the temple, to do baptisms for the dead, you have to have a temple recommend.
Which is approved by your bishop.
And one of the ways they tell whether or not you are temple worthy is based off of your income that you are tithing.
That's one of the main ways they see are you adhering?
Are you drinking coffee?
Are you smoking?
Are you adhering to the word of wisdom?
And so a lot of it really entails the obedience to the gospel.
But again, the biggest thing when it comes to Mormonism is scaling the language barrier.
And this would be applicable to whether it's Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian science, is that they will always cloak.
Christian terminology.
And so one of the things, like Walter Martin would talk about in his book, Kingdom of the Cults, is understanding what they mean when they say Jesus.
What do they mean when they say salvation?
So we said, because when we hear that article of faith, that sounds mostly orthodox.
Good.
The last part does sound somewhat reasonably suspicious, but just the word atonement, we've said that word throughout our conversation.
They say they mean something entirely different.
This is the ground working to become a God one day if you are worthy enough to attain the celestial kingdom.
Yep.
So, so damnation to an LDS individual is stopping progression.
Remember, the goal, salvation, true salvation to an LDS individual is to become a God one day yourself, right?
To be in the celestial kingdom.
Damnation is not getting there, right?
So, in LDS theology, the only people that go to their hell or outer darkness would be demons and apostate Mormons.
The devil, the demons, and apostate Mormons.
So, yeah, I mean, there we go.
The gospel to them is that through obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles, that one day they will get to the celestial kingdom.
Kingdom.
And the sad reality is this Doctrine and Covenants 82 7 tells you that if you repent but commit the same sin again or just sin again, all of your former sins are placed back on you.
And the Bible verse that they cite for this is the cleansing of the unregenerate person of demons where they'll leave and they'll come back with seven more.
There's no way out of it.
Right.
But they use that not in terms of demonic oppression or possession, but they're using that in terms of like justification.
Yeah.
Like you got it and then it goes away.
Yeah.
Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect is a command to them.
In Nephi, it says, There's no commandment given to men that they cannot follow.
Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.
So, sinless perfectionism.
They believe sinless perfectionism in this life, that it is a state that is attainable, but not only that it's possible, but you must attain it.
Not only you can, but you must.
Yeah.
Spencer W. Kimball in his book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, again, this isn't their canon, but he was a prophet of their church, a president of their church.
He stated that you are God's in embryo.
You must become perfect.
He interpreted Moroni 10 32 and 2 Nephi 25 23 to state that yes, in this life is the life that you have to prepare to meet God.
It's not do the best that you can and God makes up the rest in order to reach celestial Godhood.
It says no.
Your covenant path is that you can do it today.
And you may anticipate, I'm not Superman.
He says, no, you're a God in embryo.
It's even better.
And I'll give you one example too of how Mormonism makes categorical decisions.
Distinctions between even how men and women are viewed as far as salvation goes.
I mean, we know that within the gospel, the Apostle Paul says that there's either like Jew, no Greek, no male, no female, but all are one through Christ, paraphrasing that.
But one of the areas when it comes to salvation, the distinction between men and women is that, again, part of obtaining the celestial kingdom is to obtain a marriage in the temple to be married for all time and eternity.
During the marriage ceremony inside the temple, there is a secret name that is given to the man.
And this name is the name given to the man in which he is to call up his wife on the last day.
And this happens in every single temporal ceremony when it comes to a celestial temple marriage.
And so, really, what you end up seeing, what's carried into the Mormon marriage, according to the Mormon woman, is this unknowing pressure that it's her salvation is contingent upon whether or not her husband would call up.
Her up on the last day, and she doesn't know what this name is.
And then, like, imagine what that means as far as sociological control.
Like, if a divorce happens, or if she begins to question, say, she might be one of the many people, say, at general conferences last week, she just grabs track stuff in her purse, maybe because she just, you know, maybe we gave one of her kids grabbed it from us and then she grabs my kid, puts it in her first purse, goes and reads it later.
All of a sudden, now she's thinking, it's not just I might lose my family, but now I, if my husband leaves me, how am I going to be called up on the last day?
And what is, um, You know, what's the claim that, and also that claim is antithetical, it's antichrist because the only person that has the authority to call anyone up on the last day is the Lord Jesus Christ in John 6 44.
I mean, we know that is a great father gave to me.
I will raise them up.
Yes, they mean that we we know that is discussed.
I mean, uh, Pastor James has had you know, he may have had a conversation or two with Leighton Flowers about that another conversation, but you see in that instance, and that's actually something when it comes to depending on who I am engaging.
If I am talking to someone who is a sister missionary, I will bring that up.
And that is something that they don't see happening.
So I would say, if you're in an instance where if you have a friend who is, say, you have a close friend or neighbor, or if you're dealing with sister missionaries, bring that up because they know what that is.
They're taught from a very young age, especially the women, that their salvation is contingent upon being married.
In fact, there is a song that I remember, I went to a high school that was 90% Mormon.
And this song is called Mormon Boy.
And this is something that all of the young girls are taught to sing.
And the lyrics basically say, I know a Mormon boy.
He is my pride and joy.
And then it goes on to say, one day I'll be his wife.
We'll have eternal life.
Oh, how I love my Mormon boy.
And so eventually, like these girls are being indoctrinated to believe that eternal life is contingent upon marrying a handsome Mormon man who, you know, they go on a mid, usually they'll go on the two year mission and usually right when they get back.
They'll do that.
So, yeah, it's a.
Wow.
It is quite the name.
It's funny because they would claim to believe the Bible plus the Book of Mormon, but that's a complete contradiction with, I'm thinking of like 1 Corinthians chapter 7.
Not to mention elsewhere, you know, co heirs of grace, both the male and female, the husband and wife.
But 1 Corinthians 7, especially, you know, or 1 Peter 3, like talks about, you know, that for the Christian wife who is yoked with an unbelieving husband, Uh, it doesn't say you know, and so you're out of luck, it talks about how you know you can win him over, uh, with you know, without a word, with quiet and gentle spirit.
But the whole idea is like that, um, you might be used in the providence of God, Jesus ultimately would be the savior, but he may use you as an instrument in his providence to bring about salvation to your husband.
Whereas the Book of Mormon would flip it on its head and say, um, if your husband ended up going apostate and denied the faith, not only can you not win him over, but like you.
You've already lost your salvation too.
1 Corinthians 7 would be the proof text that we would use for how do you know, oh, believing wife, whether or not you can save your husband?
Or how do you know, believing husband, whether or not you can save your wife?
But then Paul concludes his argument saying that if you are married, whether you're the woman or the man, if you are married to an unbeliever and they agree to remain with you, then remain with them.
There's no basis there that says, like, if you're a woman and you're married to an unbelieving husband, then salvation is outside of your grasp.
Instead, it's like Paul just clearly, you know, just assumes that if you're a believer, whether you be male or female, if you're a believer and you're the wife, but your husband is denied the faith or was never saved to begin with, he doesn't even begin to call into question the wife's salvation.
The only thing that he, the only question he even attempts to answer is, Not whether or not the wife is saved, but what should she do?
How then should she live?
Like, does she remain with her husband or does she, you know, X, Y, and Z?
And then 1 Peter, same thing.
1 Peter 3 is like addresses, you know, how could you maybe be used in the problems of God to win over your husband?
But neither Peter nor Paul, under the inspiration of the Spirit, in dealing with a Christian wife yoked to an unbelieving husband, neither of them even posit the question of whether or not that has any basis on the wife's salvation.
It's both just a giant, you know, resounding no duh.
Of course, she's still saved.
Yeah.
That's why it's good to know your Bible, right?
Final Thoughts and Hope00:05:43
Right.
Because these cults, what they'll do is they'll teach people.
I mean, these young Mormon men and the women go to something called seminary every morning before school while they're in high school.
And they're learning specific topics and things from the Bible, but in terms of proof texting, right?
So if you're in a conversation with an LDS individual, it'd be great to have them open their own Bible and have them read it for themselves.
Asking them questions, right?
Like when we're talking with an LDS individual, they're trained to answer questions.
So, a good way to have a conversation with them is very question based.
I know for me personally, when I've been having conversations in the street, I've been asking, Well, what is the gospel?
What's the gospel?
Very simple question.
And what you'll find most of the time, I don't think I've had any other answer.
Honestly, it says, Well, Jesus Christ made it possible for me to obey his commands.
That's the gospel.
No.
And so, it's easy then as a Christian, though, to help them think through what the actual biblical gospel is, to tell them what the true good news is.
And then tell them their news and very honestly ask them, now which one sounds better?
Which one sounds better, right?
So, like in Ephesians chapter one, which is a very helpful text to have an LDS person read in front of you and go through it with them, it states that I have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places through my belief alone in Jesus Christ, in which I am sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, who is my pledge of my inheritance to come.
Through what?
My belief.
Not through X, Y, and Z ordinance, but in my belief alone in Jesus Christ, I'm justified and given what?
Every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.
So, when we're thinking about the LDS individual, they've got a lot of baggage behind them.
But when we're scaling that language barrier and having a conversation with them and showing them who the Jesus Christ of the Bible is, when we give them the gospel, they won't just automatically sort that through their schema.
They'll hear it through the lens of scripture.
And that's what we want.
So, hopefully, the Lord will illuminate their heart and bring them to repentance and a saving faith.
Amen.
All right.
Well, Thanks for tuning in for this episode.
And by this point, you've probably seen some of the other episodes, but just in case you're tuning in for the first time, this is just one episode in a series, a 10 part series.
And it's not all dealing with Mormonism.
This is kind of a 30,000 foot view, you know, just getting just quick shots.
One episode, you could do hundreds of episodes just on Mormonism.
Yes.
So this is one on Mormonism.
We've got one on Jehovah's Witnesses.
We've got one on Scientology.
We've got one on.
The astral realm and DMT and the divine feminine, and all these different things.
So, this is just kind of a big overview, 10 part series on different false religions and cults.
And it's meant to be an overview.
It's meant to be a broad brush, synopsis, snapshot, big picture overview.
So, if you haven't watched some of the other episodes, we encourage you to go back, check them out, and you'll find that we're giving an overview of each of these individual cults and false religions, but they all share some basic common denominators.
There's a lot of bad theology that is common throughout all of them, that they all have in common.
And if you start to pick up on some of those building blocks, it will help you when you encounter.
Other cults.
Oh, I know what that is.
I see what's going on.
And I see ultimately how that's a post description.
I know how to address that from the Bible.
So check out the series as a whole.
And most of the episodes, by the time you're listening to this, this is one of the latter episodes, not Latter day Saints, but latter episodes.
And so they're just about all out.
But we do have some bonus material that we're going to be producing some live QAs.
And so if you want to actually engage us live with some of some, some, Questions and answers about maybe you have a family member or a friend or a loved one in a cult and you have a specific question about Mormonism or about Jehovah's Witness or whatever it might be, then I encourage you to join us on Patreon because we're going to be doing three live QA sessions with all of our Patreon members as a follow up from this series.
So after you've listened to all the episodes and you've kind of formulated in your mind what your specific questions are and things that you would like to be able to personally ask one of us.
We're going to make time for that.
And so I encourage you to go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
You can sign up for the Patreon and you'll see we'll post some things about the schedule when we're doing these QAs.
We're going to do three of them.
So if you miss one, hopefully you can make at least one of those three.
So thanks for tuning in.
We hope that this has been helpful.
And if you have a friend or a loved one, a family member who is caught up in the cult of Mormonism, our prayers are with you.
And we hope that God, in his providence and mercy, would use.
The tools that have been relayed by Andrew and Jeremiah in this episode to equip you to be God's instrument and an ambassador for Christ, the true Christ of the Bible, and that God would use you to get that person out and to get them out of the cult and into Christ.
All right, thanks for tuning in.
Real quick before you go, we hope that you enjoyed the episode and we hope that you're eager for more.
However, as I already said, these will be slow dripping out over the course of weeks and even a few months.
But not to worry, if you want to be able to watch all 10 of these episodes right now ad free, all you got to do is join us as a silver tier member over on patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.