Andrew Suncrant and Jeremiah Roberts analyze Taylor Swift as a case study for modern "Divine Feminine" worship, arguing her persona promotes a neo-pagan spiritual algorithm that erodes biblical male leadership. They link this shift to ancient deities like Asherah, asserting that trends from the Eras Tour to The Rings of Power signal a return to false gods and gender fluidity. Ultimately, they conclude this cultural re-enchantment represents a deliberate rebellion against Christ's kingship, where secular humanism serves as a placeholder for rising occultism at civilization's end. [Automatically generated summary]
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Witch Accusations and Female Leaders00:11:31
Throughout the annals of history, many pagan cultures have revered goddesses and female deities as manifestations of the divine feminine, offering prayers and rituals to honor their perceived wisdom, power, and grace.
From the nurturing embrace of the Earth Mother to the fierce sovereignty of warrior goddesses, these divine figures are meant to embody a spectrum of feminine qualities serving as guides and inspirations for their followers.
However, The resurgence of interest in the Divine Feminine in contemporary times transcends mere deity worship.
Public icons, such as Taylor Swift, represent that the Divine Feminine is not ultimately located in a deity outside of the individual, but instead it is found deep within the true self.
The Divine Feminine is said to represent renewal and transformation, a call to restore balance and harmony in a world plagued by the alleged discord and imbalance supposedly brought about by the patriarchy and toxic masculinity.
In an age marked by the incessant demand for gender equality, environmental sustainability, and holistic spirituality, the divine feminine is presented as the only hope for achieving balance.
But in reality, the vast majority of its adherents do not truly wish to balance femininity with masculinity.
Rather, they wish to eradicate masculinity in all its forms, and their ultimate goal is to destroy the patriarchy in its pinnacle source, the Father, the Son, and He, the Holy Spirit.
Welcome to the first episode now of season three of the Friday special with Right Response Ministries.
And our guest for this whole season, doing 10 episodes, is Andrew Suncrant and Jeremiah Roberts, the co host of Cultish.
Welcome, guys.
Awesome, man.
Glad to be here.
I'm loving your setup here.
Thanks.
Yeah, this is awesome.
I feel like I should have brought a different change of clothes.
Every three episodes I can change.
Yeah, that's true.
That's the thing about going back to back to back.
So for you guys who are listening, the way that we do this is we each season, we select our guests, we fly them out and we record a whole season in two days.
So we are sitting in these chairs for a while.
Yes.
We will be here all day today and all day tomorrow.
And so, yeah, if you're like, man, these guys wear the same thing every single day.
Yeah.
It's like, well, for us, it was, you know, one day.
So basically episode one through five, we'll be wearing one thing.
Episode six through 10, we'll be wearing something else.
That's right.
I just want to say, too, you've been treating us so well.
So thank you so much, man.
This has been just a blast so far.
Awesome.
Well, we are honored to have you.
Let's go ahead and hop into our first topic for episode one the divine feminine.
And, you know, it's not all about Taylor Swift, but we're going to use her as a case study because everybody recognizes the name, just about everybody.
And I think she is a good case study.
So, Jeremiah, why don't you kind of Launch us off.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's very interesting because we've now, we're in year five pretty much of cultish.
We've covered a lot of topics.
You know, they're talking about historical cults like Jim Jones and David Koresh.
And we've even covered modern cults like the Way Down with the Gwen Shamblin that was depicted in the HBO documentary.
We've talked with one of Warren Jeff's former polygamist wives.
And so, and we've dealt with people who are former New Agers, people who have heavily involved in the occult, former witches.
We've just done With a broad variety of topics.
So we're always getting plenty of messages and a lot of topics.
And whenever I see a consistency of people messaging us about a particular topic, I start to ask myself, okay, what is it about this particular person that kind of has our attention?
Like, why are people kind of grasping onto this?
So one of the consistent messages people have talked about, could you talk about the cult of Taylor Swift?
And so initially I'm like, ah, I don't know.
That seems kind of cringe.
It seems kind of hokey.
Like, is there any like unique angles or any legitimacy to it?
And so, what I noticed is that there's a lot of people sort of in my sphere of just different Christian influencers, former New Agers that were sort of asserting that Taylor Swift is a witch.
And I'm trying to like, okay, well, what's the bypoint of what they're trying to say, of where they're going with this?
And so, you're starting to see, she started off as this very innocent country singer girl, and now she's kind of evolved over into pop music.
I just sort of hear that music is sort of, you kind of hear in the background, like in a meme or a video, and her.
Her songs do have a way of sort of like getting in people's heads of sorts.
But what you do see is that a lot of she has sort of taken this shift into where her music has gotten like a lot more, I used to say like promiscuous, but a lot of the people who are talking about her being a witch has to do with some of the songs.
Specifically, she had an album called Willow and there's sort of this archaic symbolism where it comes across like she's doing something very like spooky.
She's in the woods and there's like torches, stuff like that.
What you end up seeing is, and now, not only that, recently there's been a lot more people talking about her people going to her concerts and supposedly experiencing amnesia.
Like going, yeah, going to one of her concerts in the Eras tour and having no memory of it whatsoever.
And it's one of those things where you have to be careful because there's been a lot of, we have had eras where people would sensationalize things.
You think about the Salem, you know, a lot of like the Salem witch trials, you have that.
Also, I think a big part is the 1980s Satanic Panic.
where you did have satanic ritual abuse is a real thing for sure, but there's a lot of things that were blown out of proportion.
So I think you have to say, okay, what does Taylor Swift actually represent?
And what is she actually tapping into that's relevant?
Because a lot of the Christian influencers who are making the point that she's a witch, I think does sort of fall under, if you look at God's law, independent lines of testimony and witness, it would fall under sort of vague.
Arbitrary circumstantial evidence.
Just because someone is sort of talking about spell, spooky things and spells and uh, you know, and having sort of that sort of imagery as cosplaying and putting on a witch costume, doesn't necessarily mean they're actually practicing witchcraft, right?
Um it's, it's very there, it's a there's a lot of people reading into things.
So I wouldn't, of all that i've seen of people making that assertion um, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't want to be judged by that standard of arbitrary people like reading into things you can't use.
While symbolism a lot of times does have meaning, you can't use it as the ultimate, definitive point to say, hey, Taylor Swift, she's practicing witchcraft.
She's definitively a witch.
But there's things that we'll jump into that she does represent that would represent the spirit of our age, which we're going to get into.
Right.
Yeah.
So, Andrew, what is the divine feminine?
Can you speak to that?
Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to just think of while Jerry was talking here.
I'm thinking about, well, what's the spiritual algorithm that's producing Taylor Swift in our climate today, right?
Like, what is divine feminism?
What are Where does this come from?
I think it comes from this innate idea that the woman is inequal or lesser than to man.
And there must be certain things that need to be done, whether spiritually or in society, to make the woman of the same value as man according to their own presuppositions.
Right.
So Taylor Swift represents this idea of equality or equity with man.
And I think that resonates with a lot of women in our society today.
But in order to understand men and women, we actually have to have an objective standard of what a man and a woman.
Even is right, but we find posts where Taylor Swift is a woman who's in what support of abortion, of course, you know what I mean.
So, when we're thinking of divine feminism, we're thinking of let's think biblically for a second.
According to the Bible, we say that the woman was deceived first by the serpent, right?
So, uh, the man ought to be the leader of his household because he has the ability to think clearly with the objective standard of God's word and to lead his household.
That's one of the reasons, yeah.
That's one of the reasons it's the order of creation and the order of the fall, right?
So, Adam was formed first and Eve was formed.
From man and for man.
So it's the order of creation and God's purpose there.
But it's also a lot of Christians, even conservative Christians, don't want to admit that Paul, the apostle in 1 Timothy 2, he cites not just one, but both, both reasonings, the order of creation, but also the order of the fall.
That the woman fell first and the way in which she fell, she fell uniquely through deception.
Whereas Adam, the text never says that he was deceived.
There's a strong argument to be made that Adam, he sinned with his eyes wide open.
And that's not to absolve him.
Of moral guilt, if anything, both by his position as head and by revelation, the fact that he could see more clearly, he is more culpable, not less.
But it is still significant to say the woman was more susceptible to deception.
That's good.
So, how do we think about in terms of the woman being deceived and then willfully going to her husband, right?
It's like, how do we think about that with our culture today with what's going on in this spiritual algorithm, right?
That's like producing and propagating music like Taylor Swift's, like to get the man to be.
Uh, let's say he's sent, he's a willfully sinning, right?
Uh, but to dethrone himself in the form of leadership and follow the woman, like what creates that?
You think, Joel?
Uh, S I M P, just simping hard.
Uh, I think a lot of things create it, I you know, but I do think that's one of them.
I think the white knight simp kind of men wanting the approval of women, um, and very much out of perversion and lust.
And a lot of guys, um, I mean, I'm not trying to be crude, but I think that this is.
Truthful and it needs to be said.
I think one of the powers, if we could call it that, a strength that has been given by God to the woman is that God has given her a sexual power.
And if used rightly, then that's glorifying to God and it's good.
But a woman does have a sexual power, and weak men who are not self controlled can be, if they're not self controlled, they will be woman controlled.
And so now, when we look at authority in any realm, but Like, let's use the civil realm as one example.
There are two kinds of leaders there are female leaders and female adjacent leaders.
There are no male leaders.
You cannot come into a position of power in our world today apart from being a woman or being a simp.
That's it.
And so, you know, one of the reasons, you know, to answer your question that you post, this is just one, there are many others.
But one reason why I think men have abdicated much of their responsibility is because they are weak.
Unself controlled men who want to get laid.
Oneism Versus Twoism in Society00:15:07
There we go.
And alphas can win a woman, but betas simp for a woman.
That's the only way they can compete.
The only way that a dude can compete with other men who are stronger, smarter, more attractive, more leadership capabilities and characteristics is his only angle.
Again, this is apart from a Christian worldview.
If he's not going to pursue Christ and righteousness and true sacrificial love for women, if that's off the table because he's unregenerate, Who does not love God, and then just beating alpha men is off the table because he's inferior.
Then his third and final option is to just be a feminist and just tell women what they want to hear.
Real quick, before we continue with the show, I wanted to let you know that this is actually just one episode of a 10 part series that we will be slowly releasing to the public on places like YouTube and your favorite podcast platform over the coming months.
However, if you want to get all 10 of these episodes, Right now, early access and ad free.
We are making them available exclusively for our Patreon members over at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
Here are the titles for just a few of those episodes.
We've got transhumanism and artificial intelligence, we also have DMT and the astral realm, we also have neo paganism, and another of my favorite episodes is an entire episode devoted to.
The grays.
So again, head on over to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries and sign up for our silver tier, which is just five dollars a month.
And you'll be able to get all 10 of these episodes ad free right now.
And if you join us at the gold tier for just ten dollars a month, you'll get early access ad free for the full 10 episodes plus an additional live stream that I and the guys who joined me for this series that's Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Suncrant.
The three of us will be doing live streams where we'll be taking questions from you, our gold tier Patreon members, and providing for you the best answers that we possibly can from the Word of God.
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Go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries and become a supporter today.
Yeah, and I think a lot of the divine feminism, when we're thinking about their own personal presuppositions, if we're thinking more of the Gnostic realm, a lot of them believe in an androgynous God, right?
That there's a spark of divine inside all humanity.
And this spark of divine is male and feminine.
So they have no, they have a blurred distinction between male and female.
Us as people who believe in biblical Christianity and true objective standards of male and female, one created first, the other created to be a helpmeet, believe that they're different, right?
Like I don't have a spark of divine feminine within me that needs to be unlocked.
If there's any type of femininity inside of me, it needs to be crucified, right?
I need to be a brave biblical man according to God's word.
But they believe in an androgynous God, right?
And that males in, Humanity needs to awaken this type of feminine even inside of themselves.
Like, what does that make you think about?
Yeah, well, what I want to do is just also when we connect this together, because maybe our audience are wondering, okay, how are we connecting Taylor Swift to the roles of men and women and the New Age and paganism?
And we're talking about the divine feminine or even the divine feminism.
I think they would correlate all together.
But I want to zoom out and kind of, and this is, I'm going to get lay a foundation, which is going to be relevant to the rest of our season because we're going to be tapping into this in every single episode.
We're going to be talking about one.
This has to do with one versus two, oneism versus twoism.
And so, if you know Peter Jones from Ligonier Ministries, he's written a lot of it.
The very first book I remember reading was The Gnostic Empire Strikes Back, and he's written just a lot of really great books.
You can definitely check out his stuff with Ligonier.
And in his book, One or Two is Seeing a World of Difference, that's the foundation where he really exemplifies that Paul, the Apostle Paul, he initially, he was broken for his fellow brethren, for the Jews, and then he realized his heart was broken, and then he had a point where he shook the dust off the feet.
For now, I'm going to go to the Gentiles.
And so what you actually see at the very beginning of Romans, was Paul's really thesis of what it was like being in the lion's den in the arena of ideas when it came to pagan culture, pagan worldview.
That's really his thesis in Romans chapter one.
And so what you see is a distinction between one or two.
And so one is all of the pagan worldview ends up where there's no difference between creator and creation.
So the divine, the material and the immaterial are intertwined.
It's pantheism.
It's pantheism.
Everything is one.
God is in me.
I am in God.
Yeah.
Well, God is in everything and therefore in me and therefore I'm one with God and therefore I am the kind of God.
Yeah, for sure.
And you'll see that depicted in a movie like Avatar where you see the divine intertwined with nature and Mother Earth and Gaia and all that.
But what Paul says specifically, he talks about it's not, there's a worship.
The foundation is a worship exchange.
They exchange the truth of God for a lie and then they worship the creation rather than the creator and they worship man and reptiles and beasts and you see aspects of worshiping.
Humans, and you also see aspects of animism, of worshiping you know, animal worship, and but then not only that, there's a gender and the sexual exchange, and that's what you see as it progresses through Romans 1, and then you see God giving people over, and what you see is a reversal of the created order.
You see the men becoming women and the women becoming men right, and it's intertwined with self worship, and so what you end up seeing, what we're dealing with right now as far as a zoomed out picture, is that We are in a right now, America, the West, however you want to categorize it, we're in a Post-Christian Neo and we're in a full, we are in a complete free fall into neo-paganism.
We have a resurgence and a rise of the old gods.
And so how this ties into Taylor Swift, while a lot of the Christian influencers who are trying to make these things about being a witch, I wouldn't adhere to that because I think that a lot of that's just vague, arbitrary, circumstantiary.
What you do see historically with a lot of these ancient pagan societies in the intro is that you see a lot of Goddess worship, a lot of the divine feminine worship.
And so what you actually see depicted now with Taylor Swift and the Ares tour is that you see that it isn't just a concert of people going there listening to music.
You're looking at inherent worship.
She represents the divine feminine.
Like there's videos, for example, that I would say that's not just a concert, that is goddess worship.
So not only that, we're dealing also with this age of, I would call the age of reenchantment. where it's the return of the old gods.
And so now people have a longing for transcendence.
And so they're going into a Taylor Swift concert looking for that.
And so when you see videos, for example, you can look up where somebody is at, this one lady has front road tickets to seeing Taylor Swift and she walks by.
You see Taylor Swift's top and she looks at her right in the eyes and points at her and she goes, oh, oh, she stared into my soul.
And she just goes into a complete hysteria.
And you see there's something going on in those concerts, specifically the Aeros Tour and footage that I've seen, something deeper that's going on than just a concert, a music concert.
There's a true longing for transcendence, to tap into the divine, and you see that.
So it's not only that, that people longing for that esoteric, transcendent experience.
But then you have to say what?
What worldview is being propagated?
Who are the people propping her up?
What's the spirit of the age and everything that represents the shift going from traditional Judeo-christian Western society that made America what it is today.
Everything looking to dismantle that and replace those roles, like they are completely lifting her up And there's an agenda behind it.
There's a reason why you see, you go to a magazine rack, and literally the whole magazine is Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift from Time Magazine, Newsweek, and really trying to prop her up.
So, man, that's good.
Thoughts, Andrew?
Yeah, it makes me think of like the rise and fall of societies.
I know before the fall of Rome, I believe that the art depicted androgynous people, you know?
And that's how God judges societies.
That's Romans 1 right there for you.
That's what Paul's talking about the judgment of a society that rejects God, then heartily approves of wickedness, and they become inventors of evil.
Like the spirit behind the algorithm that propagates Taylor Swift is just that a society that is in judgment by God.
Like, there is no such thing as a divine feminism.
You said it earlier, uh, Joel, uh, that the father, son, and the spirit are represented, you know, with his own pronouns that he gives us in scripture as he.
So it's like, how do you handle that?
Uh, you know, being if if I were to try to think of myself as being this person who wants to unlock the feminine inside of me or the like.
How do you deal with that?
Well, the way you deal with it is full on rebellion against God.
And it looks like a specific thing.
Right.
And so there's an example where you would see things that represent who she is and what she has sort of submitted herself to.
And some people have used this to say, oh, this means she's definitively a witch.
Like there's a video at some music award show where it shows her responding to somebody up on stage receiving an award.
And this lady is giving credit.
The video's on Taylor Swift.
We might even pull it up for the sake of this video, for when we pull this episode up.
But she's giving her acolytes to her producers and the different people that help put whatever she's getting the award for.
And she's like nodding yes and nodding yes.
But as soon as she says, I want to give God thanks and all the glory for this, you see her just like scowl and like angry and like shake her head.
Now, something like that, man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.
I can't look at that and say, well, that means she's a witch.
She's practicing witchcraft.
But what I can say is that when you look at everything that she propagates and the worldview behind it and knowing what scripture says, the natural man is hostile towards God.
And that she's not able to submit herself to the decrees of God, you see that and that hostility there.
Right.
She may not be a witch, but we can definitively say, yeah, she hates God.
Yeah.
So essentially, what you're really seeing is a resurgence of the divine feminine.
And what you're looking at is goddess worship.
You're looking for that.
So I think that it's the same spirit behind in the book of Acts.
And when you have really the book of Acts, it's like an operational offensive.
Like you see, when you look in Acts, you have all sorts of different cities that are completely overrun.
With pagan temples and with pagan worship.
I mean, that's what Paul sees when he is in the Areopagus.
He goes and he's burdened because the city was full of idols.
And that's the setup for him to go up on Mars Hill and to give his talk.
But what you do see is that there is, you see, worship of the divine feminine in the first century.
You see the Demetrius the silversmith.
He comes up and he is very disturbed.
He gets everyone together and he says, We're losing money because people are throwing away the idols and now.
What's going to happen?
my biggest fear is that Artemis, who is this divine goddess, is not going to get that worship, will not be known throughout all the world.
And it says, and their hearts were filled with rage.
And it says, great is Artemis of the Ephesians.
And so what's very interesting, I just sometimes I just look at things and a lot of times I'll look at social media.
I mean, people, no one ever overreacts to a tweet or post, right?
Never, never.
Well, I mean, it was Eric Khan, your good friend Eric Khan, and he did a post a couple of months ago, you know, talking about Taylor Swift and what she represents.
And I think the boat that he did tap into something that was significant.
And of course, he spoke with a warranted, serrated edge regarding that.
But the reality is that that response, if you remember when he did that tweet, and I actually have it in front of me, there was the visceral response that he got, was a tapping into.
He did sort of rock the boat.
He did tap into that sort of internal goddess worship.
And he did because of what she represents.
Right.
Let's think about that too for a second.
I think the book of Ephesians is like an excellent book to understand the mindset of the church that was in Ephesus.
Like Paul talks about children of wrath, dead in their sins, walking in the newness of life.
These are the ones who are burning their books that you're talking about in Acts, which is an amazing thought of thinking for a while Burning their witchcraft books.
Exactly, yeah.
So it's an amazing thought when thinking about our culture today.
But when we think about feminism and trying to have equity or equality with men, what are some of the things that women believe give them equality, right?
So when we're thinking of women, we think of, you know, Helping raise a household.
They have children.
They're at home, you know.
But today in society, no children, right?
Not going at home, not working for your husband, but working for a man at a job or still working for a man.
Yeah, yeah.
It just depends which one.
Not whether, but which.
Right.
We're trying to be the lady boss.
But how do you get around that?
Well, if you're pregnant, you sacrifice your children.
Right.
Right.
Or, and then why do you just, how can you justify sacrificing your children?
Well, Mother Earth says we're overpopulated, you know.
So the divine feminism has so many different types of.
Ramifications.
Yeah, so there's the environmental piece, there's the abortion piece, there's the boss girl, boss babe, hear me roar piece.
But it all does play together.
And you mentioned it earlier and you brought it up again.
And so it just made me think the equity and equality piece.
I think it's worth fleshing that out just a little bit for the listener because I think it kind of became popular in the woke wars of like 2015, 16, 17, 18, 19, all the way up to 2020.
And then in 2020, you know, more people kind of started to realize, oh, you know, critical race theory is bad, you know, and then, you know, the popular, you know, trope, you know, from conservatives and Christians, you know, Democrats are the real racist, you know, and it's like, well, of course, yeah, Democrats were literally, they were the slaveholders.
They were like, of course, everyone, you know, the fact that you just realized that in 2020, that's cute, you know, but, you know, welcome.
You know, of course, but we got to get a lot further than that.
That's, you know, that's like, you're at like 1.0, you know, like there's a lot more.
So, With that, people started using the rhetoric of, you know, well, equality, yes, equity, no.
Equality, Equity, and the Image of God00:03:13
Because equity means, you know, equal outcomes, but equality means equal opportunities.
But that is still not truth.
That's not Christian rhetoric.
When it comes to men and women, you don't have equality or equity.
Now, you do have equality if we are speaking of inherent worth as equal image bearers in the sight of God.
So man is the glory of God.
There aren't even equal glories.
Man is the glory of God.
Woman is the glory of man.
And that is distinct in the way that God speaks of man in the image of God.
But glory and image are two separate conversations, two different doctrines.
Both male and female are made in the image of God.
So man bears the glory of God in a unique way, whereas woman reflects the glory of man, particularly her husband.
But when it comes to image of God, the Bible clearly says that man, in the sense of saying mankind, bears the image of God.
In his image, he made man male and female.
So two distinct expressions, but both bearing his image.
So if we're speaking of equality, In the sense of dignity, eternal co heirs of grace, if we're speaking of dignity and worth and value in the inherent sense in the sight of God as equal image bearers of the living God, yes, men and women are equal, and I will die on that hill.
But if we're speaking of equality in the way that the word is often being used today, equity is equal outcome, equality, equal opportunity.
Well, not only are there not equal outcomes unless they're forced, not only is equity a lie, equality is also.
A woman will not have the same opportunities, not just equal outcomes, but she will not have the same equality in terms of equal opportunities.
Even that, that is a very modern American idea that is a lie.
You think that I had an equal opportunity to be in the NBA as Michael Jordan?
Of course.
No.
That's what your Hobbs said.
So it's like, so people are like, oh, yeah, well, we shouldn't do equity and force equal outcomes, but certainly we should have equality and equal opportunity.
No, no, no.
We should have equality in the same way that we have it in the sight of God, in terms of inherent worth and dignity.
We likewise, stemming from that, should have equality under the law.
Innocent until proven guilty, there must be two to three independent lines of equal testament.
Like under the law, the law should equally apply to the billionaire or the peasant.
It should apply to the civil authority or to the person who's merely a citizen.
So, in terms of our standing under the law, in terms of justice, equality.
Equality of opportunity, like equal opportunity, and to defend yourself, make a defense, to have a jury of your peers, to have your case heard, to have justice done.
But if we're talking about equality of opportunity for career or equality of opportunity for physical prowess or for financial gain, or for no, no way.
And if we're bringing the conversation all the way back to men and women, yeah, women can get pregnant.
Reversed Roles and Abortion Debates00:15:11
And that's what all this comes down to.
Abortion, one of the biggest things pushing abortion, it was because of equality.
And what radical feminists and pro choice advocates realized is that women could never, ever achieve equality with men unless there was a way to ensure that they could not be pregnant.
That was the only way, because they would never have the same career opportunities.
They would never be able to get as far in a career or this or that or the other if they were not able at the end of the day to kill babies.
And so I've often said, as a pastor to our congregation and social media and all night, Until we stop worshiping women, we can never save babies.
A society can do one of two things, but it can't do both worship women or save children.
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Yeah, and that's what you'll see when it comes to uh like identity and also finding out like who, like who, who, who are we truly?
And what the what neo paganism says is that truth is not by transcending by looking out, by looking to To the eternal God, the God who is the Father.
And that's when you see like gender distinctions when you look at who is God, how does he represent himself?
In Ephesians, he's referred to as the Father in heaven, which every family on earth is named.
So you do see that order there.
And paganism flips that coin completely upside down.
And so they'll say that truth comes from within, looking within, and rediscovering the divine feminine.
And so what ends up happening is that you see a reversal of roles.
And so what you'll actually see a lot.
In the new age is that the women are always wearing the pants in the relationship.
They're always doing that because the goal with the women in the new age is that I want to embrace the divine feminine.
I want to embrace myself, becoming uh, this goddess uh, so you'll see the end.
But then like, the men become very, uh.
The men are basically women.
They become very.
They're very weak, they're very effeminate.
They, they do everything.
That is what you're not supposed to do as a man like you.
Embrace that because you want to embrace your feminine side.
And that's one of the reasons too why, when people, men who do come out of the new age and i've talked about this with my good friend Will Spencer is that you'll see a lot of women who, all of a sudden they they, they have complete distaste for everything they're into, they're.
They're burning away their tarot cards, they're burning away their ouija boards and everything that they use and their idols and everything which is always cool to see.
But all they want to do a lot of times they just want to be at home, they want to bake bread, have babies.
It's just, it's this very amazing like shift that happens.
You know, if you use like new age term and a lot of times, people who are brand new coming out of the new age.
They'll even use New Age terms to describe, you know, talking as people who are reformed here, they describe, they'll use New Age terminology to describe their effectual calling of being drawn by the Father.
Right.
They'll initially say, I'm going through this shift where I just, I can't do astrology anymore.
There's something, I don't know why.
There's something that's wrong with it.
And so that's what you end up seeing.
Now, the question is, you know, you look in the first century and what they were doing with paganism is that when it's warned about in Timothy about those who sneak into households and manipulate susceptible women.
That happened primarily by false teachers and pagans and Gnostics and people who wanted to be wolves in sheep's clothing.
And what you actually see is this, the zeitgeist of the age, what's being propagated with Taylor Swift, that's what's happening right now.
That's being snuck into households.
I'm not talking as someone who's trying to be like some legalistic fundamentalist telling people what you can and can't listen to.
I'm talking about what is being like Taylor Swift, she's propped up right now as the ideal woman, the ideal boss babe.
And what you actually see is not just Taylor Swift is being depicted now in film is even there's film critics like the critical drinker and neurotic that I'm big fans of.
They talk about this now the girl boss era where now basically we're trying to make all the women strong and independent.
And we're reacting to sort of now us being, you know, we're not, we've, we've shattered the patriarchy because now we're past the, uh, the wine, the Harvey Weinstein era of being, you know, me manipulated by those, by evil Harvey Weinstein.
And now we've turned all the women into men.
And so that's what you see with Taylor Swift.
You know, she's 33, 34 years old.
She's never been married.
She's had, you know, she's had 15, 16 boyfriends.
Uh, yeah.
And I think she's also has kind of really.
Now, a lot of younger influencers now who are like 18 and 20 and 18 and 20s, they start referring to their experiences of men as a body count, right?
And so I think very much when people look at her, you know, she's now this billionaire, this self accomplished person.
I really have to ask with everything that she promotes and represents, is there truly anything as far as the role that the biblical, beautiful, feminine role that women are called to that spur men on?
To great deeds uh, to do very masculine things like there's a, there's a beautiful aspect that got made.
Does she represent any of that?
And I would say unequivocally no.
And not only is the question no, what is the underlying worldview behind that?
And it has to do with the current spirit of the age, of the Rise from a Judeo-christian society into Neo-paganism.
Where you're looking at the worship exchange, we're worshiping the creation we're worshiping.
When Jeremiah says Judeo-christian, He means just Christian.
Yes.
Yes.
People can always give me a fact that just what it comes to mind.
I know.
Well, it's been said so many times, and I understand the sentiment.
But I can't help myself, but I do point out to our listeners from time to time that, yeah, because I think some people just have a bad idea of, you know, they think, oh, well, just Old Testament before the coming of Christ.
And it's like, oh, no, Talmudic Judaism hates Christ.
So it's not like these two things are somewhat alike.
No, Judeo-Christian, it would be like jumbo shrimp, you know, or intelligent liberal, you know, or like, it's an oxymoron.
Imitation crap.
Yeah, imitation crap.
So, but anyways, go ahead.
Yeah, but you see, and also that, you know, within paganism, there's neutrality as a myth.
So we're always, every religion, every worldview requires us to worship with our bodies.
Yeah.
So we're called to, in Romans 12, to make our presenters our bodies as a living sacrifice.
And you see, you see both men and women responding to Taylor Swift with worshiping with their bodies.
So you see, every, every, Woman who now is obsessively into Taylor Swift, they become more, they embrace promiscuity that's normalized in very subtle ways.
And she's sort of graduated people into that.
But also, the men who follow Taylor Swift, they're very effeminate.
They're very effeminate.
Yes.
They're, yeah, I mean, they're, I always say, you know, it's women of both sexes.
Yeah.
It's women of both sexes.
Not all male, I would say, not all male fans who follow Taylor Swift are homosexuals, but all homosexuals who follow Taylor Swift are fans.
Right.
If you put it that way.
Yeah.
So you see like men who sent for her.
And that's part of what Eric Khan was really tapping into.
Like all the men who are angry at Eric for just like calling it as it is.
And I would adhere to it.
There's nothing wrong or I would agree the sentiments with Eric, with Eric said.
I mean, he kind of, he tapped into something.
But you look at the men who are, who, who are upset at that tweet.
They were, many of them were just very effeminate.
Very, very, they would, they would follow that suit.
And then the girls who were.
Yeah.
Many of them are professing Christians or pastors, and I'm not saying that they're unregenerate or they're not Christians, but it's like, well, what's their angle?
Like, surely they don't think that, you know, Taylor Swift is going to see their defense of her on Twitter and give them a phone call or what are these, you know, these are married Christian men who are pastors.
Like, what's the angle?
What's the motivation?
Oh, I know the women in their church.
Like, this is their opportunity to white knight and to come out on Twitter, not because Taylor Swift is going to see it, but because of all the women in their church that are going to see it.
And guess what?
At the end of the day, how do I keep families in my church?
Who's the decision maker for that household in the pew that determines which church the family goes to?
It's not the husband.
Right.
It's the wife.
So I got to keep them happy.
You know, like there's, you know, I hear from pastors all the time.
You know, they'll email me or, you know, call and ask for counsel.
And one of the things they'll always, you know, that comes up regularly is, hey, we, you know, we had an elders meeting.
There's a difficult situation, but, you know, we prayed about it.
We talked about it.
We hashed it out over the course of, you know, a couple hours.
And we all ended up agreeing.
We came to a unanimous decision.
But then, like clockwork, you know, two, three days later, I started getting phone calls individually from each of the other elders saying, you know, after thinking about it, after more prayer, you know, I've kind of, Thought, you know, maybe this isn't the right direction to go.
And that phenomenon happens a lot this retrospect, you know, hindsight.
The elders are, you know, they have a conviction, they're aligned with something, and then they change their mind.
And guys ask me, what is that phenomenon?
It's so frequent, it happens all the time.
And I've been able to helpfully explain to them that phenomenon is that's the elder's wife.
Right.
They went home and they talked to their wife.
Yeah.
She doesn't like it.
You guys are making a masculine decision.
It's something that is, you know, it's tapping into some spine, some courage.
It's a hard decision, but it is the right decision, you know.
And the wives don't like it.
So when that elder calls you back three days later and says, Well, I've prayed about it, and after giving it more thought, what he's actually saying is, I talked to my wife and she doesn't like it.
But at the end of the day, she's in charge.
Yeah, and that just goes to show just how deep this is already incorporated.
I think we've only seen the birth pangs of what it means to be in a free fall into neo paganism.
And now, what's interesting is that, going back to like whether, about Taylor, Swift and other influencers saying that she's a witch?
There is, there is a saying that while not all uh, feminists are witches, all witches are feminist, and that, and that's another good point.
Right, and that, and that's not just that, and that's not a cute like little like tweet just to kind of get some people rising.
That's, that's an objective, incontrovertible fact.
Um, and also, you can even argue that warlocks as a whole are genuinely like, very gay and effeminate.
Yeah, like that.
That's what you want, that's what you end up seeing.
But not only that, what.
What else is being, what else is promoted through her?
She promotes, she promotes promiscuity.
She promotes um abortion, abortion.
She promotes the blurring of genders, which is a direct byproduct of the blurring of Neo-paganism.
That's, that's a direct byproduct of that.
So everything we're dealing with, every one instead of two everything's yeah, one versus two.
So now there's no distinction of genders.
Now there's these are they them?
This, that and the other.
Uh, she's now being propagated up by the World Economic Forum.
Uh, who is very much has a worldview of oneness and the United Nations right, no distinct genders, no distinct nations right, one global order, And she also is very much pushing the current climate change agenda.
And while Christians, we do have responsibility to take dominion over the earth and give up environmental responsibility, like the Christians in the 1970s, they gave up that responsibility and they handed it over.
And because of that, now it's in the hands of the pagans who are pushing a climate change agenda.
And when you look at what's being propagated, the worldview being propagated behind it, it's talking about we all have to come to this awareness that we are all one, that we are all part of this divine consciousness.
This is part of our ascension.
And that's what you want to do.
That is absolutely everything that Taylor Swift stands for.
She's said it time and time and time again in interviews and even working pieces of it into her songs or, you know, like whether it's a music video, she does believe all those things.
And your point is saying, okay, so Taylor Swift may not own a deck of tarot cards personally.
Right.
She may not, you know, be a witch casting spells, you know, in a dungeon underneath her mansion personally.
But everything that she advocates for, all those things are top tier issues of the divine feminine.
And behind that, there really is a spirit.
Yeah, demonic scripture.
Andrew?
Yeah.
So I like to tie all things back into the gospel.
And you said something very powerful earlier that the woman is the glory of man, right?
So when we're thinking about the woman today and the power that she has within this divine feminism, what does it say about the man, right?
And when I'm thinking about divine feminism, we can also tie asceticism into this, like man made worship.
We're innately created to worship as human beings, but false worship also brings false sacrifice and strange fire to God.
So what is the man supposed to do?
It says in the Bible, we're supposed to love our wives like Christ loved the church, give ourselves up for her, right?
Number one, pointing her to Christ and his sacrifice, God's death on the cross for our sins, but also sacrificing our lives for her.
But what we're seeing with the woman today is a lack of manliness from leaders of men, right?
So they're looking to sacrifice themselves, their own bodies, to try to have peace with God or try to have knowledge in a relationship with God.
But it's the wrong God to begin with because there's no men to lead them to the true and living God, right?
Besides, you know, of course, the Christian men that God has preserved in the church, God's elect.
But it's saying something about our society today.
And in forms of asceticism, we would talk about androgyny, right?
Where men then, or women actually, you know, sacrifice their own bodies to awaken this spark of divine within them to find their maleness, right?
Where they're literally doing mutilating their own bodies, right?
They're cutting off pieces of their arms to form genitals that aren't even real.
This is a form of worship.
And it's a worship that can't save them.
It's not, it's a worship that doesn't make them know who they truly are.
The only way we can really know ourselves is through scripture because God tells us who we are.
Ancient Deities and Modern Asceticism00:04:35
I'd like to flesh that out just a little bit.
Like, what do you think about that, Joel?
About androgyny?
Like, phrase the question again?
Yeah, like androgyny, asceticism, self sacrifice, instead of the sacrifice of Christ.
Like, what does it say when we think of women being in the glory of man?
What does it say about men in our culture today?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If woman is a reflection of man, the glory of man, and woman right now is completely off and left filled, then it's absolutely because men have abdicated that role.
And And they have.
So men have failed in large part.
And in terms of like, you know, pagan worship and like, you know, like you said, you know, like a woman, you know, transgenderism and a woman who's, you know, taking a piece of her arm and creating, you know, an appendage that does not belong there.
I think of, you know, it's none of this.
I think it's helpful for the listener just to be aware, none of it's novel.
Like none of this is new.
It may seem new, but there's nothing new under the sun.
There may be, you know, Different expressions, you know, because Romans 1 does talk about inventors of evil.
So there is a sense in which, like, there are within different time periods and generations and cultures new expressions of evil, but it's the same underlining gods, lowercase g, you know, false deities.
So I think it was Gohardis Voss who said that, you know, we always compare abortion to, you know, saying, like, well, that's not new.
That's just worship of Molech, right?
You know, the sacrificing of children.
But transgenderism, he said that it would be likened to Asherah.
So I think of like Tolkien, you know, and the two towers and, you know, Isengard and, you know, Saruman.
One of the things, you know, he wants to stop, one of the first things he wants to uproot and destroy is the trees, right?
And he's like, take down the trees, you know, and like, and there's like, but they're strong, their roots go deep, you know, but he wants to take them down and then he wants to strip them of their branches, their Fruitfulness.
And so the verdant, the greenery, the fruitfulness, the life bearing essence of trees, he wants to strip down and they become.
And this is how Voss, he's not talking about Tolkien, but him talking about Asherah.
Asherah was stripped, naked, barren pole.
It was the opposite of a tree.
So rather than a tree that has branches and limbs and fruitfulness and leaves, it is a tree that has been stripped.
It's a tree that's been castrated.
All of its Appendages, all of its limbs and all of its fruitfulness have been taken from it.
And so Molech, abortion, Asherah, transgenderism.
And so I, you know, that's a, that maybe doesn't really answer your question, but just one thing that I was thinking about, you know, as you were talking, Andrews, I think, you know, one thing to understand about, you know, what's going on in this current moment in our culture is, and Jeremiah, you've already talked about some of this too, but none of it is that new.
Like it is, it's the old gods returning.
This isn't just, oh, we're just secular humanists, you know, like secular humanism was.
Always just a temporary placeholder.
It was the illusion of neutrality to try to get people to ultimately let go of the heritage of Christendom, right?
Because we've got to get rid of Christ and nobody's going to just trade Christ straight up for Satan.
So let's, we can't just say, hey, we would like you to let go of Christ and all the blessings that he gives for Molech.
Well, that's a harder sell than to say, you know what?
Don't let go of Christ.
You do you, boo, right?
Do your Christian thing in your home.
You know, in private, but in the public square, just out of tolerance and sensitivity and compassion towards others, which is a Christian principle, by the way, let's not, you know, embrace Satan, but let's just embrace neutrality, right?
But then secular humanism, like clockwork, and I would add classical liberalism in this as well, was only really just a temporary placeholder because at the end of the day, as you lose Christ, you're not left with neutrality.
Something fills the void.
It's not Christ or neutrality, it's Christ or chaos.
And what is filling the void is what has always filled the void.
Very real deities, lowercase d, lowercase g, gods, and they're the same ones from long, long ago Asherah, Molech, these kind of things are coming back.
Yeah.
And just if we can even divert from Taylor Swift for a moment, I'll kind of approach it from another angle.
Girl Boss Era and False Gods00:03:27
And it's very interesting because I'm somewhat of a movie nerd and I really, I'm a big connoisseur of film and love analyzing film and all that stuff.
I'm probably going to eventually be doing my own podcast and eventually, but I think even a lot of the culture.
Uh, even when it comes to people who are nerds and movie critics, uh, and different YouTube and influencers, they're more aware of what's going on than even a lot of Christians as far as how the rise of the divine feminine has taken over entertainment.
And so, you know, you mentioned a moment ago Tolkien and just how he articulated that world.
That comes that there's so many underlining Christian worldviews and perspectives that are given throughout Tolkien's work.
when you look at Definitive Good versus Evil and just all the different, everything that represents good and virtue in the world.
And there's a reason why those stories and like just the music, like you hear Howard Shore's music and it stirs our hearts and emotions.
And like now there's even new generations that see those movies and they're moved by it.
But how do you go from a point where you have Tolkien who depicted, you know, Galadriel, where Gimli says, oh, if I could just get three strands from her hair, that's all that I want.
And so you see this nobility, this beautiful.
nobility between men and women.
And even those, even like other worldviews and people who aren't Christians, they understand that there's a beauty and mystique and lore that's a distinctly Christian perspective between masculine and feminine.
But then what you now see in the whole, even in film now, you have this era of the girl boss era where the same zeitgeist behind Taylor Swift is now depicted in modern entertainment where every single girl is a girl boss, where she is basically, she's insufferable, she's an insufferable Mary Sue, she doesn't need no man.
She's practically perfect in every way that she's never allowed to struggle.
And so there and it's and it's already wrecked a bunch of franchises.
They ruined the Star Wars series.
They did that by introducing.
They did that with Ray.
They did that.
They ruined Indiana Jones, their new IP.
They're trying to replace.
They're trying to take all the classical male characters and replace them with women.
Right.
And they're turning the women into men.
And you saw it depicted in the Rings of Power series where you took Gladriel who in the books, as far as the fandom, they see her as this reverent, beautiful feminine character.
where she ended up being the most hated character in the new series because they turned her into this insufferable girl boss, Mary Sue.
Like people despised her.
Like there are literal comments that are saying, it's because of this depiction of Galadriel, like I'm rooting for Saruman.
Like that's how much they depicted that.
So I think what you are really seeing is that even the, even the culture people like, if people may listen to me, know these influences I mentioned before, Heal versus Babyface, Critical Drinker, Nerd Roddick.
These are big YouTube influencers that have been like talking about this.
They are, you are seeing.
The rise of the girl boss in films, and it's the same zeitgeist of the rise of the divine feminine, where Taylor Swift would also be seen as as this, like girl boss.
But there's nothing virtuous uh, as far as like the role that a woman should be, and I think that, and that's something too like, if I have a daughter, I need to be very, very careful about what she's exposed to, like the film that she's exposed to um, and even like, I would even use that as a distinction between, I want you to be the, I want you to be the Galadriel of Tolkien oh, not the insufferable Mary Sue Of Amazon.
Demonic Powers and National Repentance00:13:11
So, how long can divine feminism last?
Like, when I think about divine feminism, I think that it already died at the resurrection of Christ.
Like, when I think of Colossians 2, it says, He disarmed all rulers, principalities, powers, and put them to open shame.
He triumphed over them in Him.
So, when we're even talking about the return of the old gods, they don't have the power they had before.
They don't.
So, I think that's very interesting.
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts because I could be wrong.
I do think that there is a very real and objective and final sense in which, like, disarmed.
So that's an objective, definitive, and I think indefinite thing.
I think that these powers, these princes over principalities, demonic princes, fallen angels, that they really were stripped and disarmed by Christ and that they're not ever going to be able to attain their former glory.
I think that's true.
But I also do think that it's not just make believe or people pretending or hysteria, you know, that's conjured up and manufactured by man.
And I think there really is dark, sinister, nefarious spiritual energy that we've seen post Christ and his resurrection and glorious ascension that we've seen these last 2,000 years of this gospel age throughout church history in places that are uniquely un Christianized.
So, like places, I think, in Africa or places in the South Americas or places in Asia, places that have not been thoroughly Christianized when Christians eventually did go there.
They were usually witch doctors, you know, and some kind of, and they had some kind of power.
It wasn't just, right, just like, you know, the, you know, the Jonas and Jambres, you know, the, you know, magician henchmen of Pharaoh.
I don't think that it was just smoke and mirrors.
I don't think it was sleight of hand.
I think they were using actual magic, demonic arts, dark arts.
And then they're not able, you know, Ben and Brian have said this, you know, and I think it's insightful.
After the third, you know, so they're keeping up tit for tat.
You know, it's lesser, it's inferior, but they're still able to, you know, Moses does something by the power of Yahweh, and then they do, you know, they do something.
But after the third, you know, the Nile turning into blood, well, that was their fertility god, you know, represented in the Nile.
And the blood signified not just, oh, I'm turning water into blood, like, you know, it's a random thing, it just shows supernatural, you know, ability and power.
No, there's a symbolism there.
It's, I've taken your river god, this goddess, and it was a female god that represents fertility.
And the reason why the Nile, its place of habitation, has turned to blood is because I killed your God.
It's the blood of your God.
And after the third, when God, Yahweh, kills their God, that God of fertility also happened to be the God of witchcraft.
And then after that, you don't see Jonas and Jambres able to do the spells that they were able to do in keeping tit for tat with Moses.
And so my point is now, all that again is back to what you said, Andrew, that's pre Christ in his incarnation.
In his death and resurrection and ascension.
And now we are post Christ.
So I do think something objective happened at the cross.
I don't think, I know, Colossians says it.
So I know something objective happened.
And so I don't think that there will be demonic powers with the same degree of power and license to just roam around and do whatever they want as princes over principalities such as Assyria and Babylon and things before, in the Old Testament, before the coming of Christ.
But disarmed doesn't mean dead.
Shamed doesn't mean necessarily imprisoned, although we know some are, right?
So, Jude, right?
Gloomy dungeon.
So, some are imprisoned.
All, I think, in a real way, are disarmed.
And so that means something.
It means less, but it doesn't mean nothing.
And I do think that there's something to be said for places where the gospel hasn't gone.
When Christians finally do arrive, you find these as dark, Strongholds where false gods still have some power.
And my question is this because this is what we haven't really yet seen in 2000 years of church history.
We've seen, since Christ and his victory, non Christianized places where dark power still resides.
What we haven't seen yet, though, is a place that has been thoroughly Christianized and then went back to the old gods.
And I think that what Jesus said for an individual man, I think the principle rings true for nations.
At a corporate level as well.
He says that when a spirit is cast out, it goes through waterless places, arid places, and the house, the man with the spirit formerly resided, is swept clean and put in order.
But it's one thing for it to be ordered, and that's good.
But if the house is only ordered and not filled, then eventually the spirit will come back with seven friends worse than itself and re inhabit the man, and now an ordered house, and the latter state of the man will be worse than the former.
I wonder.
Applying that principle to nations, like when you think of a well ordered house, like what did the Christian worldview give us?
What did Christ give us?
And not just in our churches and in our private practices of piety, but all of Christ for all of life in every single realm.
Like, well, the Christian worldview has given us weapons, it's given us physics to be able to make bombs, nuclear bombs.
Like, what is that?
I look at that as like America, like the man, the house.
And then The swept clean and put in order is Christendom giving us all these innovations, the Christian worldview leading towards all these innovations and things that we now know, technology, AI, which we're going to get into in a later episode.
So you've got the house, but apply that not to an individual, but a nation.
You've got Christendom that comes in, kicks out the demons, sweeps it all and puts it in order.
That's the fruit of Christendom.
That's your technological advances and innovation, all those.
But then what if that house apostatizes?
And then the demon comes back with seven of its friends.
Right.
I like what is a pagan god nation with nuclear capacity look like?
Yeah.
What is that?
Because we know pagan nations that, I mean, let's be frank, pagan nations that live in huts and throw rocks.
What about a pagan nation with nukes?
That's where we're headed.
See, and I've been thinking about this a lot too.
And I think the way it, Works, at least in my brain, is that regardless of what the nation believes, they're covenanted to Christ.
And in Psalm 2, it says that if they don't obey, he will break them like a potsherd.
When I think about the disobedience and rebellion of our nation today, in terms of Christ's kingship, they can't be apostatized from his kingship.
They can rebel against his kingship.
But with the return of the old gods, I see it actually as more of like a kicking against the goats.
It's a people trying to resurrect and feign resurrection of old gods that have been disarmed, have no more power.
So I think humanity has a Excellent way of trying to find another scapegoat other than Christ.
So, shifting blame from the inventors of evil, who is man, and placing it on the spiritual powers of the world.
I think what God is trying to show humanity is that you can't always blame the demons.
The evil's in you, and it needs to be crucified.
And God judges nations by sending spirits, right?
So, we see Saul was what?
He was sent a deceiving spirit.
And it was in order to judge him an evil spirit for his glory, for his will, for his sovereignty.
So, I don't.
I don't think any nation can actually be apostatized in terms of its covenant to Christ because the success of the nations is predicated through the perfect kingship of Jesus.
Right.
So I think he'll use them and that's a sign of his sovereignty.
So not only are they disarmed, but now they're going to be used to bring about the obedience of the nations through the judgment of the nations.
And hopefully, these demonic spirits being used.
Yeah.
And hopefully, bring about the sanctification of the church and obedience of the nations.
And the way that we would, even with church discipline, so taking it from a national perspective, like, I handed these men, Hymenaeus and Alexander, I handed these men over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh so that their soul might be saved.
Right, yeah.
Right?
And they might be taught not to blaspheme any longer.
So you're articulating that Satan and other powers, dark powers, disarmed but not dead and utilized by God in the same way in church discipline,
handing over to Satan is not a final handing over to Satan in terms of hell, but it would be handing over to Satan in this life temporarily that Satan might be used as a teacher to demonstrate how good God is and cause the person.
To return.
I think Satan hates that.
Yeah.
He hates that because no matter what he does, it brings the success and obedience of the nations.
I can get behind that.
But I do think, I think that in that case, both are true that there's Christendom has cast out the demons, seven more come back, and the nation is in dire straits for a season.
And it's both and it's look how bad this is, and also look at what God's doing in using this.
I like that.
And then brings the nation ultimately back to repentance and it becomes Christian once more.
Right.
At the end of the day, though, we all know nations can't be Christian.
You can't have a Christian family unless, not if you have an infant, they better all be regenerate.
You can't have a Christian family, cannot have a Christian school, cannot have a Christian business, cannot have a Christian nation.
I'm being facetious.
But that's what I keep hearing from Reform guys on Twitter.
I've been assured you cannot have any Christian thing except for an individual regenerate heart.
Well, I think Isaiah 9 6 or Isaiah 9 actually argues that.
Yeah, and one last thing I'll just say too as we wrap up here is that Gary North, He had a book he wrote called Unholy Spirits.
And one of the things he said is that falling occultism is always the fruit that comes about as the at any civilization being at its world at the at its world's end.
Yeah.
Same basically the Vikings at the door in at the at the capital in Rome, like what you know what Augustinian talked about in the city of God.
And you see that when it comes when you think about the dark ages and the Renaissance and the rising and falling of civilizations all throughout the Middle Ages, you see a rise in occultism.
at the brink of a society collapsing.
And so that's what we're seeing.
And so, you know, as I mentioned before, you talk about the zeitgeist of the age, not all feminists are witches, but all witches are feminists.
And when you just think about that, the amount of pieces of content on TikTok, there's a trending hashtag witch talk.
It's the amount of pieces of content somewhere around 70 or 80 billion.
That's the amount of content that's out there just in regards to.
It's not a small fringe thing.
This is not a fringe.
There's more.
They already gave this like five or six years ago.
Well, five years ago when we started one of our first interviews. our guest stated that there's now more notable witches than Presbyterians.
That's what we're dealing with.
And so what we're also dealing with, too, is that as a whole, we are dealing with an era of re-enchantment, the return of the old gods.
So what may at one time may have just been a concert where you hear someone look to, you're now looking at a place where goddess worship is taking place.
And there's nothing really new about that.
Right.
Even as Taylor Swift doesn't mean it, there is a spirit behind her that means it.
And there are thousands of young girls in the audience.
Taylor Swift may not view herself as a witch, but there are thousands of girls in the audience who are worshiping, really are.
And it's like, oh, you guys are being hyperbolic.
No, you can talk and interview people or watch their TikTok videos.
You're like, oh my God.
And not just, oh my God, I met my favorite celebrity, but it's like they will call her a god.
I mean, there are Reddit threads that talk about defending Taylor Swift, these Swifties, and they say, well, they're not just attacking Taylor Swift, they're attacking me.
That's the reality of it.
Yeah.
And that's where you see, and that's where I say, arguably and unequivocally, without even being sensational, is I would say that the same spirit and zeitgeist behind the Swifty and the Taylor Swift movement now, and they at one time been sort of this fun artist you could sort of be a fan of, is turned into this, it's captured in really the same zeitgeist and spirit of the age that not in modernity, there's nothing new under the sun, the same zeitgeist and spirit of the age of what was articulated next when everyone shouted out, Greatest Artemis of the Ephesians.
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I would not make any distinction between the two.
Very interesting.
All right.
Well, thanks, guys.
Yeah.
Fantastic first episode.
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