Pastor Joel Webbin and Andrew Isker dissect the "fake sin" of racism, arguing that a radicalized Christian right now rejects multiculturalism for an Anglo-Protestant monoculture. They analyze cases like Spokane's Pride flag defacing to illustrate perceived animus against white people, contrasting left-wing strategic radicalization with right-wing self-sabotage. Isker contends that "America for Americans" defends national identity rather than promoting hate, while criticizing dispensationalism for neglecting future generations and inherited wealth stewardship. Ultimately, the discussion frames cultural unity as a theological imperative essential for preserving the nation-state against globalist erosion. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Christian Nationalism and Theology00:14:54
All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
In this episode, I've got Andrew Isker.
He's the author of The Boniface Option.
He also co wrote a book on Christian nationalism with Andrew Torba from Gab.
Andrew Isker is a friend.
He's coming on the show.
And he's also, this is really important for you to know, he is also one of our primary speakers at our upcoming conference that's happening in April of 2025.
Title of the conference is Christ is King.
Subtitle How to defeat Trash World.
We're going to have Stephen Wolf.
We're going to have Orr McIntyre, Steve Days, Jeff Durbin, just 15 guys.
It's an all star lineup, but one of the guys is Andrew Isker.
He's theologically savvy, but he's also culturally and politically astute.
He's sharp.
He can take things down to the ground level and say, this is what we need to do.
Therefore, how then should we live?
All right.
So that's kind of the things that we're going to be talking about in this episode, particularly in regards to can we have a country?
Or does the whole world have to live in America?
This multiculturalism, is that a good idea?
And if we have one culture, does that mean that we don't want different shades of skin pigment?
Are we being racist?
Neil Shenvey recently wrote an article.
It's not that great, but we're going to address all those things in this episode today with Andrew Isker on Theology Applied.
Tune in now.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome back to another episode of.
Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries.
In this episode, I'm welcoming back my friend Andrew Isker, and we're going to be talking about an article that was recently written by Neil Schenve on the woke right.
So, right out of the gate, it's helpful to just get the facts in order.
One of those facts would be that the woke right doesn't exist.
That being said, let's go ahead and talk about it.
Andrew, welcome to the show.
Yes.
Hello, Joel.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
So, what did you think about Neil's latest masterpiece?
How'd you enjoy it?
I think that he is identifying something that's occurring, yet he doesn't have a category to understand it.
There is clearly a new Christian right that has emerged over the last five or 10 years, certainly the last four years since 2020.
And he's very scared about it, doesn't like it, doesn't like how we engage with all of the issues you're not allowed to talk about ever.
And he wants to lump it in with wokeness on the left because he's made kind of his name, right?
People know who this guy is because he spent the last, you know, five or six years talking about the woke left, the woke, and taking it apart and critical theory and all of these things.
And he's like, well, there's these people on the right too that are really bad people that they're just like the woke left, but from the right, right?
He's kind of engaging in.
Dialectic and so, um, yeah, he wants to sound the alarm, right?
Here's this big bad boogeyman that everyone should be afraid of.
Okay, so, real quick, a couple things about Neil Shemvey.
One, for those who don't know, uh, part of the pushback that Neil Shemvey has received from the woke right doesn't exist, but let's say the dissident right or the true right or whatever you want to call it that's been emerging over the last four years because all these guys who really just wanted to, you know.
Grill burgers in their backyard on the 4th of July, you know, and celebrate American heritage and celebrate Christ and these kind of things have been radicalized because we've realized that we live in a country and ultimately an entire world that hates us, hates our ancestors, hates our worldview, hates our heritage, and wants to see people like you and I completely eradicated from the face of the earth.
So, you know, that tends to radicalize a person.
And so people have been waking up and people have been.
You know, saying, well, wait a second, you know, there's something going on here, and I want to speak out and I want to obey the fifth commandment honor my father and honor my mother.
I think of Romans 9, you know, where the apostle Paul says, you know, of what advantage is there in being a Jew?
None whatsoever, because ethnicity doesn't matter.
Said the Bible never.
Instead, he says, what advantage is there in being a Jew?
Much in every way, not salvifically.
So he's just made that point and saying, well, you don't have to be a Jew according to the flesh in order to be saved.
And so it leaves the reader thinking, well, then there's no advantage in being a Jew whatsoever.
But then Paul, you know, he, He then adds to his point, says, Well, wait a second, there is an advantage.
It's not an eternal salvific advantage, but there are temporal benefits, and there's a temporal beauty in coming from this ethnic, this covenantal heritage.
He says, There actually is an advantage in being a Jew, much in every way, for theirs are the prophets, theirs is the law.
And he talks about the rich heritage and history of the Jewish people, what God had uniquely done among those people for centuries.
And I think that you could say the same as somebody who is Anglo, that you're not.
Inherently superior to any other ethnic people.
That's ridiculous.
But I think that it is true to say, well, what advantage is there in being an Anglo Protestant?
Well, much in every way, for theirs are the Puritans, theirs are the Reformers, theirs is Calvin.
Like that is a beautiful thing.
And I think that there's been this full court press from the global regime and all these different guys, and even within the evangelical church, maybe it's from, you know, with Christians, it's probably a lot of it out of ignorance and just kind of this boomer post war sentiment theology.
But there's been a full court press to basically, if we were to boil it down to the common denominator, it's to get white people, particularly white male Christians, to hate their ancestors, to hate their heritage.
And a lot of young white men are saying, nah, I just don't think I'm going to do that.
And posting memes of Hulk Colgan or whatever it is.
And I say, no, I'm just not going to hate my people.
Now, my people, in the truest eternal spiritual sense, are Christians, Christians all over the world.
But there is something about natural affections and my people in this temporal plane, this earthly existence.
And I do have an obligation first to my wife and my kids and my extended family members, my town, my church, my community.
But beyond that, right?
So we're not saying they're all equal, right?
It's tiered, it's like ripples spreading out in the water.
But there is something to say, well, I have a particular fidelity and loyalty to my nation.
And then even within my nation, my particular subculture of my nation.
And so, all this being said, Is every guy on the right articulating these things with perfection?
No.
And have some guys maybe gone too far?
Sure.
But to pretend as though this is the major problem of the hour is to lose the plot to a degree that is hard to even put into words.
Do you agree with that assessment?
Yeah.
I mean, just look at, as we're recording this, things that happened in the last week, or a little over the last week.
Right.
You have in Spokane, Washington, a couple kids that rode their scooters over a Pride flag crosswalk and they're facing three to five years for putting skid marks on that Pride flag crosswalk.
Did you see the Babylon Bee?
It's three little white teenage boys.
The Babylon Bee showed a picture of a Pride rainbow crosswalk and then the skid marks spelled out Free Palestine and it said they defaced the rainbow crosswalk.
But they're giving them a pass.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's hilarious.
I didn't see that.
But it's, you know, I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable, right?
That you have that on the one hand happening.
Yeah, it was just like these three white, like 20 year old kids, you know, that are facing prison for that, for this great crime.
And then, I mean, the other example is this little three year old boy, this little white three year old kid was stabbed to death in a.
Grocery store parking lot by a black woman who apparently just wanted to kill a white person.
And did she say that?
I don't know if she said it exactly.
You said you told me offline that she was like in the court case, she's like, she's smiling to the camera.
There's no sense of remorse.
And it's not like she knew personally the family, they had wronged her or something.
So it does seem that it was just, I want to kill this kid because he's white.
But to be fair, that wasn't explicitly said.
She hasn't stated it as far as I know, but it seemed like the randomness of it.
And she just randomly killed a little white kid.
It just is terrible.
Evil, evil stuff.
And so you look at it like that example and countless others like that, right?
Where people see this, right?
They see this happening.
They see the animus that's just ever present toward white people in general.
I mean, you had like on Twitter the other day, you know, Raymond Chang saying that American Christianity won't be, won't be, Correct or right until we eradicate whiteness from it.
Right.
I retweeted him and said the exact same thing.
I said, until it's purged of whiteness.
And then he had a parenthetical note and he said, whiteness is not always white people, but it kind of is.
And so then I retweeted the exact wording and I said, you know, until American evangelicalism and the gospel won't be effective until it's purged of snakes.
And then I put parenthetically, note, Chang is a snake.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's just, it's crazy.
Like you, that kind of attitude is.
Openly allowed, openly encouraged, right?
Even, you know, so you look at that, like this guy, that's a woke guy, right?
If we want to look at how Neil Shanby looks at these things and equates the two, you know, the new Christian right on the one hand and the woke left on the other, there's nobody, nobody serious anyway, other than maybe trolls online, but no figure that's saying, boy, we got to get all these non white people out of here, out of our perfect.
Pristine white Christianity.
Nobody's saying that.
They want to imagine that Stephen Wolf is saying that, but he's not saying that at all.
Well, and Stephen Wolf did a great job at this last conference that you were there.
I was speaking at the conference, the New Christendom conference, and those guys, the Ogden boys, they did a great job hosting and putting that together with relevant, you know, giving the whole theme of the conference being, you know, very timely.
Like those are good guys who know what time it is.
And so, great conference.
And Stephen Wolf was there.
And in his lecture, you know, Joe Rigney was there also.
Joe Rigney in the green room afterwards, I remember he said, he was just raving about how great of a job Stephen did.
And he said, he was like, it was beautiful because all of your opponents, all your opposition were probably like salivating, you know, watching you because it looks like you're constructing the noose around your neck and hanging it over the rafter, you know, because Stephen's whole thing, his talk was on why multiculturalism is bad, a bad thing.
That we need a monoculture.
We need One culture.
And then he argues, you know, because to make that point, it begs the question well, which one, right?
If you're only going to have one culture, which one should America, and he's not saying every nation on earth, but America, given our history, given our theology, all these things, which one, which culture should we have if we're going to have a monoculture?
And he says, well, it should be not just Protestant.
He doesn't just give a denominational or theological basis, but he also gives this, you know, ethnic piece using the word ethnic in the old way that old writers would have used it before 1945.
But he says, no, it's not just Protestant, it's Anglo Protestant.
And then he spends the rest of the time defining his terms.
What do I mean by Protestant?
What do I mean by Anglo?
But then he concludes by saying, all right, so I've established that we should have, you know, diversity is not our strength.
We should have a monoculture.
Which one should it be?
It should be not just theological, you know, Protestant, but it should be Anglo Protestant.
And then now let me list for you a few of my favorite Anglo Protestants.
And he's, you know, Clarence Thomas.
That's one of my favorite, you know, that's one of my favorite.
He's not even Protestant.
Anglo Protestant.
Yeah, I know.
He's not even Protestant and he's not Anglo.
But that's the point.
And then he gives us another example.
He says, from history and antiquity, Booker T. Washington, another famous black guy.
But what Stephen is saying there is he's saying, no, no, no.
Clarence Thomas, if he was dropped just wholesale, just dropped down in Uganda, he would be foreign, absolutely foreign to the people there.
To the native people of that country in that place.
But no, he is, for all intents and purposes, he is Anglo Protestant.
He has been swimming in this milieu, this culture, and he's good.
He is a net positive for the American people, the American way, our heritage, our future.
And so what Stephen is saying is a lot of guys, they're making it about skin color.
And so they say, well, you know, these guys are, they're not Christian nationalists, they're white Christian nationalists.
And it's like, Well, you're slandering us.
That's not true.
But it is more than just Christian nationalism.
You are right about that because you can have Christian nationalism in the Sudan if, by God's grace, there was revival there and they're saved.
You can have it in El Salvador and you're getting a little bit of that, you know, and you can have Christian nationalism in Russia or all these different places.
So we are arguing for something more specific than just Christian nationalism because we're arguing for Christian nationalism here in America.
And there's going to be a unique strain of Christian nationalism, but it's not white Christian nationalism.
But you could say it is.
Anglo Protestant Christian nationalism.
And what does that mean?
It means this European culture, maybe some French, maybe some Germanic, but primarily this English, Puritan, Reformer, Protestant, that kind of culture.
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And whether or not there are different shades of pigment between me and my neighbors is not our concern.
The concern, though, is are you on board with the same project?
Do you have the same goals, the same ambitions?
Can me and my black neighbors go over to each other's backyard on the 4th of July and see this commonality of tradition and customs and holidays and what we celebrate?
Or are my black neighbors celebrating Juneteenth and then I'm celebrating the 4th of July and we have very little in common?
That's a kind of diversity, not with pigment, but a diversity of thought, a diversity of culture that is not our strength.
A nation cannot sustain itself if we're fractured like that.
And that was Stephen's point.
He did an excellent job.
And Neil Shinvey probably would have hated it because it basically strips Neil Shinvey of his smoking gun that he thinks he has.
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Yeah.
Because it sounds, you know, because someone like these are complex, complicated issues and they're issues that are sensitive.
People don't like talking about them.
It's, you know, a third rail that people step on.
But what Stephen was articulating is that it's not racially essentialist.
Right.
It's not you're only an American if you have the right DNA.
Right.
That's not what he's arguing at all.
He's saying that there is an ethnic component to culture.
And everybody until, you know, like 10 minutes ago understood that, that there are particularities among various peoples.
And when you say 10 minutes ago, you mean 80, approximately 80, 79 years ago.
Yeah.
In the span of history, though, like that's what, yeah, no, you're right.
Brief moment ago, all people everywhere understood this stuff that different groups, different ethnicities, they live in different ways.
And that's the way God made the world.
Beautiful, actually.
But then, when you take all of these different groups and you jam them all together in one place and say, okay, you can have your way of life this way, you can have your way of life that way, and you're all going to live together, right?
You can have your Juneteenth and you can have Ramadan and you can have this and that, right?
Then all of those groups are going to have a group identity coalesce around their particular ethnic identities, and they're going to be at war with each other and they're going to be at war with the majority group.
And if we ever, God forbid, get in a war with foreign.
Which, goodness gracious, you know, our political leaders seem to be trying to make that happen every day.
But that's, you know, you remember the scene from Braveheart where, you know, the English had taken over, you know, one basically Irish tribe that were, you know, or Scottish tribe.
And they were basically, I think it was Irish, I can't remember.
But basically, they were serfs, you know, serving the English lord, you know, and the king and fighting in his battalion, his army.
And then they send them out.
You know, to do because they're the grunts.
They're like, we'll preserve our English nobles.
And so we'll send out the grunts, you know, for this particular battle because it's this small, you know, peons that we're fighting.
And they run out and it looks like they're going to battle.
And then they stop right when they get next to each other and they start laughing and hugging because it's their native people.
And to think, my point is, I mean, that's the same thing that happened with Rome.
You know, a lot of empires in America, you know, I'm not saying it's good, but it's just the reality.
America, in a lot of ways, has more.
You know, similarities to an empire than it does, you know, a sovereign distinct nation at this point.
And a lot of empires ultimately become so powerful that they're invulnerable to any foreign threat.
But ultimately, the demise is usually that they implode from the inside.
And a big reason why they implode is because they spread themselves too thin across too many non compatible cultures.
And then, you know, when the rubber hits the road, hey, turns out that this province over here of, you know, whatever people.
They're not actually loyal to the empire.
They're loyal to their own kind, to their own people, to their own ancestors, and it doesn't work.
And again, that is not an ethnic essentialist approach because I would say that there are plenty of people of different shades of skin pigment in America that have been here longer than I have, people darker than me, but can trace back their ancestry as true, you know, red blooded Americans further than I can.
And they very much are united, and their fidelity, their loyalty does lie with America.
But this idea of people continuing to come across the border in hordes of military aged men, this, you know, the Southern invasion, that's very different.
And I think both of us, you and I, acknowledge that America is unique in the sense that America is never going to be, nor should it be this, you know, 100% white people.
But it should be, I believe, by God's grace, or we would like it to be 100% white people.
Anglo Protestant as a milieu, as a way of life, as a worldview, as a culture, this Anglo Protestant, and again, see point A, you know, Stephen's point, and I agree with it, that Anglo Protestant would include something, you know, somebody like Clarence Thomas.
So we do need to be aligned with this American heritage as a culture, as a way of thinking, as a cultist, worship and religion and theology and this heritage.
But right now, so nobody is talking, I don't know anybody talking about.
Taking a bunch of black people who have been here for 10 generations and sending them to Nigeria.
I don't know any conversation like that.
I do know conversations, however, of saying, hey, people who got here 15 minutes ago who are not legal citizens from Nigeria or from Brazil or whatever it may be.
Yeah, that has to stop.
That absolutely has to stop.
Yeah.
I mean, that's part of it, too, is that when you import, I mean, just like my example here in Minnesota, we have at least 80,000 Somalis, and we have Ilhan Omar, who is the representative and has been.
You know, caught on tape saying her job is to, you know, represent Somalia and to send money over to Somalia.
That's her function as a US Congresswoman.
And it's like, that's, you're not an American, right?
You identify yourself as a Somali, right?
That's here in America, that's here to, to, you know, strip us bare and take all our stuff and send it over there, right?
That's not an American in any sense whatsoever.
So, like, when you think about like the counterexample of what Stephen's talking about, like, well, who isn't, like, Well, here you have a Muslim from Somalia who has not assimilated in any way at all, and is actively opposed to the interests of heritage Americans.
That's one thing.
Whereas you can have, for instance, like Senator Ted Cruz, whose father was from Cuba.
He's a second generation American.
And you could see this guy, he is an American, he's a Protestant.
He's not always a great politician.
But he is an American.
And yeah, he is.
Yeah, absolutely.
Nations, Borders, and Divine Judgment00:15:11
Like it's undeniable.
And so I think that, so looking at it in that frame, right, in that framework, that I think largely explains what Stephen is talking about.
But it's an issue because, right, you have this question of like, well, what is American identity?
What is an American?
And if America is just this melting pot, right, this economic zone where all the various peoples of the world, you know, 8 billion people on planet Earth, Can come here if they want to and be part of this thing.
Well, then there's no distinctiveness whatsoever.
It's just a place where people could come and make money or take money.
It's not a people.
It's not a people at all.
And there's something about that that is just abhorrent.
I mean, it's totally against any natural order, any creation.
And the biggest thing is it's not against our sensibilities, just for the listener.
It's against the Bible, it's against the word of God.
That is not how God created the world.
Nations are God's idea.
I think sometimes people think, Well, nations think of it the same way that like a feminist egalitarian thinks of, you know, the curse in Genesis 3.
They're like, Well, you know, God's original design was egalitarianism, you know, but the curse is patriarchy that you know, your desire will be for your husband, and that's the same kind of language as you find just a little later, you know, in Genesis 4.
Feminism is the curse, exactly.
So, yeah, exactly.
But they would say, No, patriarchy is the curse.
The curse is that you would desire your husband, and that word desire there is like the same as Cain, you know, where sin is crouching at your door, desires to have you, meaning it wants to master you, it wants to rule you, dominate you, sin does.
But you must master it, you must rule over sin.
And so that same kind of wording, well, the woman would desire her husband.
It doesn't mean she would just have this romantic inclination of, you know, I just desire to spend quality time with my husband.
That's no, it's saying your desire will be to rule your husband, and yet the opposite will be true.
So then the feminist says, See, there it is right there.
The curse of sin is male headship.
It's patriarchy.
No, no, no.
The curse is not that the man would rule over the woman, his wife, but that the wife would have this sinful desire to usurp the natural order and rule over her husband.
So the curse is not patriarchy.
The curse is feminism.
Well, same kind of thing, pan out just a little bit further with Genesis 11.
Guys will look at the Tower of Babel and they'll say, see, that's the curse.
The curse is because of sin and the way that they were, you know, their pride trying to make a name for themselves, you know, to not be scattered over the face of the earth.
Because of that, because of their pride, thinking they could build a tower, a structure to the heavens, God came down, confused their languages, and he did that as a punishment.
And so, therefore, different languages that ultimately produced a spreading out in different cultures and different ethnicities and different nationalities.
This is the curse, not the design.
Whereas I would say, no, no, no, no.
Was it a judgment for their sin?
Yes.
But their sin wasn't just pride.
They specifically say, not just we're trying to make a name for ourselves or ascend to heaven.
Right, trying to achieve equality with God.
But they furthermore say the people congregated at Babel, they further say, let us do this, make a name for ourselves and ascend to heaven so that we will not be scattered over the face of the earth, which is a direct rebellion to the very cultural mandate given in the very beginning of humankind, which is to be fruitful and to multiply and to subdue the earth.
Part of what God had commanded is that we spread out and that we subdue the whole earth, us and our posterity.
In fruitfulness and in dominion, this dominion mandate included in that, baked into the pie of the dominion mandate, which is the original command that God gives before sin even enters the world.
In a prelapsarian world, God tells us to subdue the whole world, which includes necessarily spreading out.
And here we have in Genesis 11 guys who are saying, We don't want to obey God.
We don't want to spread out.
We want to stay congregated.
And so is God judging them for their sin of pride, saying, We're going to make a name for ourselves?
Yes.
And in one foul swoop, I would argue simultaneously, God is judging the sin of pride, but also there's a mercy, a deep mercy in this judgment.
He is also working in using his judgment as a catalyst to get the people at Babel back on the rails, back on track with the original dominion mandate much faster than they would have naturally.
He's saying, okay, so you have chosen to directly rebel against what I told you to do, to fill the whole earth, to spread out.
Instead of just wiping you out, which I would be perfectly within my rights to do.
Which he's done before.
Which he's done before.
I'm actually going to judge you, but with a merciful judgment that includes in the judgment, the punishment is the very thing that's going to expedite you getting back on track and fulfilling my original command to spread out over the face of the earth and subdue it by confusing your languages.
So, my point is, and if that wasn't enough, we have the book of Acts.
It says, you know, God sets nations their borders and their times.
So nations are God's idea.
This isn't a bad thing.
So people, you know, just like the feminist says, you know, well, the curse is patriarchy.
No, the curse is hating, that the woman would hate patriarchy and her sinful flesh if not redeemed and sanctified.
And so too with nations.
Well, the curse at Babel, the Tower of Babel, is different people and nations.
And, you know, and therefore a one world order would be, you know, the undoing, the redemptive, you know, element of that.
No, no.
The curse was actually the root of sin was not wanting distinctives, not wanting unique nations, not wanting to spread out and trying to make a name for themselves by congregating so that they would not be spread out over the face of the earth.
And God's judgment at Babel contained within it also a mercy to get mankind back on track.
So, nations are God's idea, just like patriarchy is God's idea.
And that's something that I think the squishy evangelical church, even those who are somewhat moderately conservative, they've completely missed.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
That is the important thing to understand.
And what globalist multiculturalism is, is fundamentally Babelic.
It is a recreation of the Tower of Babel and saying that, no, we are going to congregate all the world together and we're going to make a name for ourselves.
We are going to do things our way, not God's way, and rule the planet.
That's what globalism ultimately is.
And it destroys the distinctiveness of peoples and their particular ways of life and creates this monoculture.
That's the other horrible thing about it.
It creates this monoculture that runs roughshod over all the particular ways of life and cultures that it brings in together, destroys them, and then creates this like fact.
It's not even like it's like anti culture almost, right?
I mean, when I talk about like in my book, you know, Trash World and the monoculture that you find there of like Marvel movies and Star Wars movies and things like that, and just that's all that people have.
For the record, we're Where, you know, because somebody might say, well, wait a second.
You just said that Stephen Wolf was arguing for a monoculture.
Just for the listener, monoculture within one particular nation, AKA good, but monoculture among all the nations globally, AKA bad.
That's what we're saying.
That diversity actually is a good thing.
But the idea that, like, I don't want diversity in my family, right?
I want my family.
Diversity is not our strength, the web and family strength.
Unity.
Is our strength that we're on the same page.
And that's what we see even in Ephesians 4.
You know, that there's a unity, not just a unity of common care, charity towards one another in the midst of disagreement, but there's also the Bible speaks of a second kind of unity, unity of the faith.
I would argue that's a, you know, there's a unity of common care, love, and then there's also a unity of common conviction, knowledge, faith.
And so it's not the strength of, for instance, if we applied it to the church, if one local church, Is boasting of the diversity of theological convictions as their strength.
Then it's just, guys, you are naive.
That is not like what's great about our church is, you know, one of our elders is Arminian and one of our elders is Pelagian and one of our elders is a Calvin.
Like, guys, that's not a strength.
Your church sucks.
That, you know, it's just not a good church.
And so we can apply that to the household, the family, we can apply it to a church.
And here's the thing these guys like Neil Shenvee, you know, kind of center right, moderate, you know, conservative guys, In the woke, the original woke wars 1.0 of 2020, they acknowledged, and rightfully so, they acknowledged that diversity is God's idea, but it's God's idea spread out over the whole face of the earth.
And that to mandate or esteem as a virtue diversity of ethnicity in one local church setting is not what the Bible is getting at.
So Neil Shinvey was one of the guys who batted that down this idea of pastors congregating at a pastor's conference and boasting about what.
Percentage of your church is black, and what percentage of your church is Hispanic, and what percentage of your church is.
And so he did that.
Well, all you and I are doing is just saying, Hey, Neil, let's put on our big boy pants.
You can do this, you know, like the same concept that you battled three years ago with the local church setting.
Could we apply that to a nation now?
So we're not saying diversity, we don't want any diversity over the whole face of the globe.
But we're saying, in the same way that the universal church is very diverse, but not necessarily a local church, doesn't have to be diverse there.
Well, so too, the whole world is very diverse, but within one nation, one national setting, That there is no Christian mandate to make every nation ethnically diverse.
And I do think you and I would both admit that in the case of American heritage, we admit that America is different than China, it's different than Japan.
From our founding, America was going to have more ethnic diversity than other nations.
And that's fine.
But even within that, there's still a hegemony, there's still a dominant ethnicity, and there needs to be a unified monoculture.
That's what we're arguing for.
And we could back it up from a natural affections standpoint.
We could back it up theonomically.
Even with Israel, it's like, well, Israel let people come into Israel and gain citizenship.
Yeah, uh huh.
But they still remained Israel.
But they still remained Israel.
And these people were not full citizens with all the rights and privileges of Israel until the third generation.
And some nations, as a judgment to them because of things they had done to Israel in the past, because these nations, because of past.
Historic hostility were particularly incompatible to the Israel project that some of these nations, as a judgment to them for past sins, if they grafted into Israel covenantally, they wouldn't have full rights and privileges until the 10th generation.
So, even from a theonomic perspective, we can apply the general equity of the law and say, okay, great, we can have mitigated, reasonable, prudent immigration.
But even as we have it, even for those who immigrate, you may not.
Be able to be a full citizenship with rights to vote in a presidential election until your grandchildren.
And that would be perfectly biblically defensible.
And I think Neil Shenvee would seethe and cope a little bit.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Because it doesn't fit within the allowable post war consensus understanding of rights, of law, of citizenship, all of these things that America is this melting pot where everybody just comes in, where America really is just an economic zone.
And part of it too is, I mean, even just looking at the example of Israel, right?
There's lots of examples of things that you've said just now, right?
Look at the problems that Israel had, right?
They had all of these Canaanites there that they're supposed to wipe out.
And what did the Canaanites do?
Right?
They had a particular culture, and at the center of the cultists of that culture was their religion.
Right.
And that affected Israel.
Right.
Right.
Israel fell into Baal worship because their fathers, Generations beforehand had not obeyed God and eradicated them.
And so they start worshiping Baal.
And you have this minority culture all around that is affecting Israel, right?
And so there was multiculturalism in Israel and it was bad.
It led to their ultimate downfall.
And so you see that also, like another biblical example, I preached on 1 and 2 Samuel recently.
And you see when David goes to the Philistines, he flees Israel because he's.
He's being attacked by Saul.
He and his men flee to the Philistines.
And he goes to the Philistines, to the Philistine king of Gath, and he, one, they command him to go raid Israel, and he lies to them.
He doesn't raid Israel, he goes and raids all of Israel's enemies and brings back the spoil.
And they're like, wow, this is great.
Good job.
And so, anyway, he's been faithful deceptively to the Philistines, so much so that Achish, the king of Gath, converts, right?
I think, anyway, I think it's solid enough evidence that he begins speaking oaths in the name of the Lord, right?
And which is not a thing a Philistine would do, right?
You don't just do that because you're being polite, right?
It's meaningful that he does that.
And Achish is so on David's side that when the Philistines are mustered for battle against Israel, he brings David along.
And the lords of the Philistines are like, wait a minute, hold on.
Here's this exile from the court of Saul.
Who is here with us and all his men?
And when we go to battle with Israel, he's going to attack us.
He's going to be loyal to them.
He's not going to be loyal to us.
Yeah, he's going to attack us because he wants to get in good with Saul again.
He wants to be back on Saul's good side.
So he's going to attack us from behind.
Loyalties Baked Into Natural Design00:05:10
And so we can't let that happen.
So you need to send him away.
And you look at it and it's like, whoa, whoa, there's an ethnic dimension here to what's going on and understanding of loyalties.
And so you think of that.
Now, in our context, and again, just real quick, when we say ethnic, you've got to put on your big boy pants and think of older, truer, more reliable dead guys.
Don't think of all the living people from the 1960s.
When we say ethnic, we're saying that includes nationality, that includes culture, that includes customs, traditions, loyalties, religion, theology, all that.
So when we're talking about this whole Philistine and David, Anytime that ethnic, we've just been ruined.
We have been so ruined by libtard theology and politics.
So, as Andrew says that, you're probably thinking that the Philistines were concerned because David, if he held out his arm, it would be a different shade of color than the Philistines.
That's not, it's, that is so shallow.
That's not what we're talking.
It's, we're talking about a whole way of life baked into a particular people.
And their history and their royalties and their religion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, I mean, and you see this in America today.
You have, I mean, a year or two ago, there were a couple servicemen in the US military who were ethnically Chinese.
I think they were Americans, like born here, American citizens.
And they were giving secrets, right?
They were giving secrets to the Chinese government.
And you see this all over the tech industry.
You have, and just many other industries where, You bring in with H 1B visas and things like this, you know, Chinese nationals to come and work in different corporations.
Meanwhile, what are they doing?
They're sending the blueprints to different technologies back to China.
Right.
And currently, you have a totally open border where the Chinese can send in tens of thousands of people in the United States to do whatever.
And meanwhile, our government is like saber rattling against China.
And it makes no sense at all.
You have American congressmen sleeping with Chinese spies like Eric Smallwell.
You have all of this.
And within the cultural milieu that we have today, right?
This liberal, egalitarian, multicultural, everybody's an American understanding.
That just doesn't work because they don't think that way.
They have loyalty to their people.
And so they come here and they could be here for several generations even and still have that loyalty and be sabotaging things and stealing technology and so forth.
For the benefit of their people, which is not America.
And then there was a war between the US and China, right?
Oh, yeah, we're in trouble.
Even Ben Shapiro has said, you know, he said, like, yeah, I love America and I am an American citizen, but a lot of my aim and my goals in being an American citizen and doing this massive conservative media empire here on American soil to American listeners, a lot of my motive in that is to garnish among the American people.
Loyalty and affection for Israel.
And what he's saying in that, he's not hating America necessarily, or at least maybe not consciously, but he is saying, I have loyalties.
And so even my love for America comes with a particular motive, and it's to garnish and to capitalize on my influence in America for my homeland, my truest people, which is not ultimately American, but rather.
Israel.
And Ben Shapiro, I'm not the biggest fan, but I will still admit that Ben Shapiro is more harmless and less malicious and sinister, at least on the face, than some other guys.
But it's still, my point is, even with some of the conservative examples, where some of the guys would categorize and say, well, he's technically on the right.
So even with some of the good guys, there's still this principle.
And the reason why, here's the point this principle is baked into the pie of humanity, not.
In the theological category.
I don't believe it would fall under the theological category of total depravity.
Well, it's baked into the human pie because we're all sinners, and therefore, you know, one of those sins is racism.
No, I think it's baked into the pie based off of nature, not fallenness, not total depravity, not sin, but this is actually God's original natural design that there would be certain loyalties, that we're not just a citizen of the world.
Growing Private Family Banking Community00:02:11
You can say that, but no one is a citizen of the world.
You press them hard enough, and at the end of the day, they're going to say, These are my people, whoever they are, but these are my people.
Here's where my loyalty lies.
And a lot of that is determined not by new affiliations that were made last Thursday, but a lot of that is determined.
Loyalties, fidelity is determined from birth.
It's natural.
Those are natural ties.
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Left's Strategy vs Christian Standards00:09:49
Also, see the show notes below.
Let's spend, we've got like two minutes, Andrew, here at the very end.
But I thought maybe we could talk about tactics and methodology for just a moment in regards to, you know, the left.
Part of the reason I feel like the left, in a political sense, in terms of their practical strategy, part of the reason they always win is one, the side that wants to win is always going to beat the side that just wants to be left alone, right?
They, I mean, those guys want it.
They want it.
But beyond that, also the way, you know, if you think of a chessboard, the way that the left uses all their pieces, they don't disparage and despise their pawns.
They recognize, well, a pawn, you know, it's not as effective.
We're not going to, you know, fall on our sword to, you know, to save the life of a pawn, you know, if I'm over here and I'm a bishop or a rook or whatever.
But we still recognize that a pawn is a playing piece on the board and it's a net win.
And so what I'm describing, this chess example, is I'm thinking of the left uses its radicals.
So the left, there are far left guys, pawns on the chessboard that may not be as calculated or as influential as a bishop or a queen.
But they recognize that, well, but the pawns are still on our side of the chessboard.
There are pawns.
And we're not going to take our pawns and line them up and shoot them in the face.
But the right does.
The right absolutely does.
And so my point is this, and I'm trying to not provide a Jesus juke, but in a pastoral sense, I think there's two things.
Because I think guys like Neil Shenvee, they're like, well, if you guys are making this defense and shoring up your position, but.
If you really believe that, if you really weren't racist, then you would be coming out of the woodwork on Twitter every 15 minutes and denouncing.
Why didn't you?
I demand you denounce so and so and denounce so and so.
And my position is this as a pastor, I'm playing with two hats, two roles.
Pastorally, spiritually, there really is such a thing as objective sin.
Sin threatens and endangers the soul.
And I want to see radicals on the right go to heaven.
Right when I'm putting my eternal thinking cap on and my pastoral lenses, and so I will have certain conversations if I'm concerned for a brother in Christ, his soul.
And I think, no, man, like I see the strategy here, but there are certain tactics that are just not afforded to us as Christians because we do have a standard.
I'm concerned about your soul.
Are you becoming obsessive about this?
How's your wife?
How's your kids?
How's your family?
Uh, why don't you touch grass for a couple weeks, you know?
So that I think that's past, but I feel like I can do that.
And do it privately, spiritually, pastorally, prayerfully, theologically.
And yet, I can also, we got to think in categories.
I can also put my political hat on, and I'm not a politician, so this is not my primary role, but I can think politically and say, okay, but in the public sphere, no, I'm not gonna shoot this pawn in the face.
I think he's a little radical here.
I don't agree with him, but I'm not going to spend my capital in a political, tactical sense going around and shooting every guy that I think is a radical on the right.
The left, part of the reason they win is because they don't shoot their own, they use their radicals.
Right?
They play like good cop, bad cop.
So you heard what so and so said, and that's pretty intense, you know, but I'm reasonable.
I just want, you know, I just want to trans some kids, you know, not like that, not all kids.
That's how the left works.
And the right, part of the reason I think the right always loses is one, because we don't really want to win and we just want to be left alone.
And two, part of the reason the right loses is because the right is self sabotaging.
We eat our own.
And part of the reason why is it's one thing to be principled, it's another.
To be ideologues.
The right is too idealistic.
And I think even church guys on the right, pastors, good pastors, myself included, we have become so idealistic.
It's like for like, because we were rightfully concerned about mega churches and smoke machines and laser license.
And so we did this all out war on pragmatism.
You remember that?
Like pragmatism is always bad.
And now I'm kind of a little older and by God's grace, I think a little wiser.
And I'm like, you know what?
Yes, I'm a regular principle worship guy.
I want simple worship.
I want hymns and psalms and preaching of the word, word and sacrament and liturgy and these.
That's my view of the Lord's day, the church gathered together.
But an all out war against pragmatism in every single realm of life and in the political realm, that probably wasn't a really good idea.
What do you think?
Yeah, I think what you're striking on is exactly right in the sense that, in terms of, you know, Political conflict.
You see how the left operates.
They have a vanguard on the far left that is never satisfied with anything other than ultimate victory.
And I mean, just look at the issue of gay marriage, for example.
They had these people pushing it for decades, decades pushing for gay marriage.
And the mainstream left, Like as far back as 2008, right?
Barack Obama gets elected president saying, I'm totally against gay marriage.
And they all supported him, right?
The vanguard of the left all supported him because they knew, right, behind closed doors, he didn't actually believe that.
And they pushed it and pushed it.
And then all of a sudden, he gets his Supreme Court justices and they legalize gay marriage through judicial activism and they get what they want.
And you can look at any other cultural issue or any other political issue and it's the same strategy.
You have the far left pushing.
And the center left kind of practicing this selective obliviousness to them.
They never denounce them ever.
Whereas on the right, what you have is the mainstream right jumps whenever the left says to and denounces anyone to their right instinctively.
And you also have the vanguard on the right that's constantly attacking the mainstream.
And it's totally ineffective.
And so you have, for instance, on the abortion issue.
Right.
You have a vanguard there, which is, you know, the abolitionists, where they're like, no, we are not satisfied with anything other than total abolition of abortion.
And, and, and God bless them.
Right.
This is, they're great.
And they're not satisfied with a heartbeat bill or anything like that.
They want the whole kit and caboodle, right?
And so they're pushing the right and they get attacked, right?
The mainstream pro life groups attack them and in all these different ways attack what they're doing.
And they're pushing, though, right, the political right, the mainstream right, further and further toward their goal.
And on these things as well, right, you look at issues of culture and, uh, Multiculturalism and so forth.
The only group that isn't allowed to defend itself or pursue its own group interests are heritage Americans.
And you see one guy show up and start to defend their interests as a group, and he wins the presidency.
And in 2020, he gets more votes than any Republican candidate has ever gotten before.
Close to 80 million people supported him.
And so that group of 80 million people, for their entire lifetimes, they've never been allowed to think of themselves as a people.
As a particular people with a particular culture, a particular heritage, they're told that those things are bad.
You're a citizen of the world.
Everybody is your neighbor.
And all 8 billion people on planet Earth.
And what you have happening is because of people further to the right pushing and pushing and pushing, this vanguard on the right pushing these things, these ideas, you have this understanding of American identity, of American particularness and uniqueness, right?
Real American culture and real American history and heritage as our own.
Beginning to coalesce once again.
And they're terrified of this.
They're terrified of Americans pursuing the interests of Americans as Americans.
They're terrified of those things because they've been subdued for half a century.
And that actually, I think, is very encouraging for American people to say, hey, we don't want a totally open border.
This is actually really bad.
It brings in crime and drugs and all sorts of horrible things.
We want America for Americans.
Can we have that?
And so people like Neil, of course, don't like that.
They want everybody to come to America because America is nice.
The country that our great great great grandfathers built is still a great place and still very, I mean, it's still on top of the world, still this place where anybody can have a very good life.
And so they want us to import a million or millions of people from India or from China.
Or from Central America, right?
And Americans say, no, no, we want America to be for Americans.
And people are beginning to see that that's not a bad thing.
You're not an evil racist if you want America for Americans.
Protecting Inheritance for Grandkids00:08:15
Amen.
Yeah, it really is direct disobedience and rebellion to the fifth commandment.
I remember when that hit me like a ton of bricks, where I started, part of it was there was a progression here, theological progression, and then that began to apply to culture and to politics and these things.
And a big piece, Of it for me was this post millennial idea.
And I don't think you have to be post millennial to have this idea.
But it could be all millennialism or even historic pre millennialism, but breaking out of the dispy, pre mill, secret rapture, and it's going to happen next week.
Because that's what I think has kept a lot of kind of normie evangelicals from even having to think about these things.
Because you really don't have to think about the future if there is no future.
If Jesus is coming back next week, then I don't really need to think about my posterity.
And so when I broke out, so for me it was eschatology.
And again, it doesn't have to be post mill.
For me, it was, but really any of the major three eschatological positions, just not the one that's lousy, the one that shouldn't even be one of the positions, aka dispensational premillennialism.
But if you're historic pre mill or if you're all mill or you're post mill, in any of those categories of eschatology, study of the end times, your view of the future, then all those allow for and even lean towards the likelihood of many more generations to come before the final end of the world, Jesus' final physical return.
So now, You have to start to think about your grandchildren.
You have to start to think about your great grandchildren.
So that was step one.
And then once I was thinking about my posterity, future generations, that's when it hit me.
I thought, man, I am working really, really hard.
I could just pastor a church, but I'm doing other things and not just through media and right response and these things.
It's not just to reach more people with the gospel and sound doctrine for a kingdom mentality, but I'm doing it for a kingdom mentality, but I'm also doing it for a web and household mentality, which is part of the kingdom for the record.
But I'm trying to because, you know, at this point, it's not just Right Response and Covenant Bible Church in Central Texas.
But in addition to all that, me and some friends were starting a soap company.
Well, why that if it's just influencing people theologically for the kingdom?
Well, I'm trying to start a soap company, one, because people need good soap, two, because a lot of soap companies are, you know, they're Act Blue, pro Planned Parenthood, you know.
But three, I would like to start a soap company to make more money.
And here it is for who?
For my kids, my grandkids, my great grandkids.
And I was thinking about that.
I was thinking if I was, you know, standing up in heaven, leaning over the rail, the proverbial rail of heaven, looking down at my great grandchildren, and let's say I build a soap empire, you know, which I probably won't, but let's say I build a soap empire like Charles Haywood, the shameless soap empire.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's worth millions of dollars.
And I look down, I see my grandkids, and my grandkids bust like the CEO of Hobby Lobby, and they decide to give the entire board and the entire company soap.
Company over to, you know, like the Salvation Army or some charity, and then they give all the money, you know, write a check and give all the money to orphanages in Uganda.
Well, five years ago, I probably would have thought that that's noble, right?
I mean, David Plath, he would have loved that, you know.
That's so great.
Yeah, it's great.
John Piper, he would love that.
But you know what?
I would be deeply, personally hurt by that.
Now, I know technically I probably wouldn't be hurt because I'd be in heaven and he wipes away every tear, but you get my point.
I would not like that.
I would not support that.
You know why?
Because, in addition to pastoring a church, in addition to doing right response ministries, in addition to being a husband and being a father, I stayed up late multiple nights and did this and did that to build this soap company.
And I didn't do it for strangers.
Not because I hate strangers, it's not about that, but I didn't do it for strangers.
I did it for my posterity, my kids.
And then when you apply that to a nation, and particularly our nation, when you think about American history, George Washington, these guys, the founders, they didn't ride into battle.
And give their lives, their blood, their sweat, and their tears for people in India.
They did it for their kids and grandkids and great grandkids.
And so it really is a direct rebellion to the fifth commandment to God, first and foremost, a sin against all sin is first vertical against God, but then also the horizontal element of sin against our fellow man.
It's a sin against our fathers to say, You did this for us.
You did it for us because you loved us.
And we would like to spit on your grave and give it all away.
Yeah.
It's just, it is morally wrong.
We don't get to make that choice.
That's the thing.
It's actually arrogance.
It's actually arrogance to come into a particular time in history with an incredible inheritance and wealth that's been provided for us at the cost of our fathers' lives and to be born on third base, but to pretend in delusion that you hit a triple and say, it's mine and I get to choose what to do with it and I choose to give it away.
No, it's not actually yours.
It's yours in one sense, but it's actually your fathers.
They're the ones who.
Who sweat and bled for it, and uh, and they did it for you to steward and to pass on to your children and your children's children.
They didn't do it for the world, they did it for their posterity.
And um, and it is dishonoring, it is disrespectful, and it is a breach of the fifth commandment and a sin against God not to have some immigration and some generosity and some.
Charity, all this within prudence, but to be suicidal, give it all away, and throw it all away is actually not virtuous, it's not noble, it's sin.
Yeah.
Just look at it.
I mean, it's funny because the kind of squishy post war consensus people on the right who are like, oh, we need to go back to the Constitution people would hear, like Michael O'Fallon, right, would hear that, what you just said, and lose their minds.
Right.
But then you think about, look at the preamble to the US Constitution, right?
For us and our posterity.
Right.
Right.
That's why we've created this country, this government.
For us and for our posterity.
Right.
That was baked into the cake from the very get go.
And for us to say, actually, the equity that we all have in this thing called America, we're just going to dilute it and give it to the whole world.
Yeah.
Right.
That is, that is, it's evil.
Right.
It's not just foolish.
It's immoral.
It's not just foolish or ignorant.
It is.
It's like what Jesus said to the Pharisees, where they tell a young man, despite his parents, you can donate all your money to the temple.
Yeah.
The money they gave you to support them in their old age, you can give it to the temple to spite them, to give two middle fingers to your parents and leave them in poverty.
Yeah.
You're violating the fifth commandment.
In doing that, even though you look really holy, you gave all your money to the temple.
Look at what a righteous guy!
You look really holy when you say, Look, all these poor people and in all these parts of the world that it's so bad over there, we need to just bring them to America.
All the refugees, refugees, welcome, bring them all here.
Right?
You look really holy saying those things, but then you destroy the inheritance that you've been given to spite your ancestors and to spite the people in your own country you don't like.
Right there, you have Jesus Himself calling out the Pharisees.
With a Jesus juke.
He's like, hey, I'm Jesus.
Don't do a Jesus juke.
You can't do a Jesus juke.
Support your mom and dad.
You're not that holy.
How to Find Us Online00:02:50
All right.
Tell us real quick how people can follow you, CJ, things that are going on.
Do it real quick and then we'll go ahead and conclude the episode.
Yeah.
So you can find me on Twitter and on Gab at BonifaceOption.
And you can find CJ Angles in my podcast.
If you read the article that we referenced from Neil, I don't know if Joel's going to put it in the notes here, but CJ features prominently in that.
We didn't even get to.
Everything that is said.
I mean, so much of it is kind of silly, but I know CJ and I are going to talk about it on our podcast, Contramundum, on YouTube and Substack.
You can find us there.
And so we're going to talk about this a little bit more in depth and kind of take it apart piece by piece.
But yeah, we record every week.
We didn't last week because we were both in Ogden listening to Joel's awesome talk.
Thanks, man.
It was.
And if people haven't seen that, I think they're going to release it at some point.
I think so.
The Ogden guys, they just paid the Ogden guys the money.
Pay the Dane Geld and get Joel's talk.
But it was phenomenal.
I came away.
My wife texted me and said, Edra, I'm crying.
Crying is so good.
I showed Joel that text too.
So I'm not just flattered.
That was super encouraging.
Well, it's because it's like you got to know your place, you know?
So it's like, all right, Stephen Wolf is one of the speakers.
So I'm not going to get up there for an hour and say, I'm going to provide for you a very academic and intellectual lecture.
Like, no, no, Stephen can handle that.
I'm going to get up there and do what I do.
I'm going to rally the troops and I'm going to take all this stuff that Stephen, some of these higher ideas, boil it down to my own blue collar sensibilities and level of thinking, and then pitch it to the masses in a very practical, applicable kind of way.
So, by the way, XYZ, what that means on the ground for you right now is blank.
And it's like, oh.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
And I listened to it and I was ready to run through a wall after it.
Amen.
Praise God.
It was great.
Well, yeah, you can.
You go.
Sorry.
I was just going to plug Contra Mundum one more time.
Yeah, yeah, go for it.
Go for it.
But yeah, listen to that.
We'll record.
We record usually every Friday, and you can find us there.
We have a long back catalog of stuff if you want to see what we're all about.
But yeah, please, please listen and subscribe too.
If you like Right Response, you'll like us too.
I'm subscribed.
I'm a fan.
Contra Mundum.
Check it out.
And one of these days, I need to invite myself onto your show.
Whether you like it or not, I'll just insert myself.
We want to.
We're like, you know, The whole time, we're like, Joel's such a big deal.
You know, he's got 100,000 subs.
I don't know if we could get him.
I don't know.
I think you can.
All right.
Well, thank you, Andrew.
God bless.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Thank you.
Thank you, everyone.
All right.
Thanks to the listener.
Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you again soon.