Joel Osteen hosts Toby Sumter, Chalk Knox, and Gabe Wrench to debate R.R. Reno's "Return of the Strong Gods," arguing that globalism and complementarianism are unsustainable "weak gods" collapsing under rising nationalism. They contrast potential Christian nationalism with Andrew Tate's secular patriarchy, noting young men turning "black pilled" over perceived societal theft. Discussing the October 11th Fight Left Feast conference, they critique modern meekness versus triumph, warning that Christendom's decline has empowered secularism to threaten humanity with AI and nuclear weapons, necessitating a shift from weakness to prevent false strong gods. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Why Globalism Will Fail00:09:28
Principal pluralism is not viable.
Globalism is not going to last.
Even complementarianism was always intended to be a halfway house, and today we quickly see that middle ground falling away.
In our episode of Theology Applied Today I'm privileged to welcome back to the show my friends from Cross Politic.
We discuss R. R. Reno's book called "Return of the Strong Gods." Religion, Tradition, Nationalism, Family-these things inevitably are coming back.
The weak gods were never viable.
They cannot last.
So the question is not whether, but which.
Will we have Christian nationalism or Islamic nationalism?
Will we have biblical patriarchy or will we have Andrew Tate?
One thing's for sure the weak presentation of the Christian faith that evangelicals have peddled for decades cannot continue.
The ground will not hold.
Tune in now.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
In this episode, I'm super privileged to welcome back to the show Cross Politic.
We've got Toby Sumter, Chalk Knox, and the water boy, Gabe Wrench.
Guys, thanks for coming on the show.
Great to be with you.
Yes, sir.
Man, good to be with another guy from Texas.
I mean, I'm just, you know, good.
We got it, Gabe.
It just feels so good.
I actually really appreciate you saying that, Gabe, because I thought for a second you were going to be like, it's just good to be with a fellow Presbyterian.
Ha ha.
That's what I thought it was going to say.
Well, Joe, is there something you want to say, Joe?
No, no.
Is there something you want to come out the closet about?
No, sir.
Is there something you want to sprinkle on this conversation?
You let us know if there's something that you know you need to divulge.
If it ever happens, you'll be the first.
You'll be the first to know.
I believe that.
I believe that.
Okay.
All right.
We're going to hold you to that.
But speaking of doing things together, we're doing this, but we're also, I'm going to get to see you guys at Fight Left Feast at the Ark.
I'm super excited.
Did you guys, have you sold out your tickets yet?
Tell us about the conference.
Oh, yeah.
The conference.
So, our conference is October 11th through the 14th this year at the Ark Encounter, which is just like for I'm pulling my kids out of school to take them to the conference because it's a historical, like, scientific gospel experience.
If you think about the Ark and the history of the Ark, you think about the science behind the worldwide flood, and you think about you have salvation and damnation embodied in that whole event and story.
It's just a fantastic, and Ken Ham and the crew over there do a fantastic and fantastic presentation of the Ark.
And so, they actually have an event center.
I think it's only two years old.
Yeah, it's brand new.
I was talking to somebody who was there actually a couple years ago, and they were like, What?
There's an event center?
Yeah.
And I said, Oh, yeah, it must be brand new.
But it's not on the ark, right?
The event center is separate.
I'm imagining.
It's next to it.
It's right.
It's like 200 yards away.
Yeah, that'll be.
Not as cool as it is.
You'd have to go in two by two if it's in the ark.
Well, there wasn't a.
Cannaham is very precise.
You're right.
So he would not put the event center in the ark because that's not historically.
That makes sense.
But not that precise, Toby, because I've been reliably informed that there is not a display next to the ark of giant Nephilim drowning.
In the flood, so he's not that accurate, you know what I mean?
He's that's awesome, they're underground.
Okay, so just to wrap it up, it's October 11th through the 14th at the Ark Encounter.
Um, tickets are still available.
Joel is actually doing a live show with us on Christian nationalism.
We got Stephen Wolf coming, Pastor Doug Wilson, and Joel Webb on our live show to discuss Christian nationalism and hash out everything right there.
We'll finish the conversation and everyone will know what to think.
Definitely, we will renew covenant with God between America and.
And the trying guys, yes, that's awesome.
Amen.
That's awesome.
Will there be any Baptist representation?
Oh, so you go to fightlapfeast.com to sign up.
There's my folks.
Are you guys, Gabe?
How close are you to being what is the limit here?
Is it like 1100, 1500?
What's the limit?
Yeah, we, uh, they got space for about 2,000 and we're at about a thousand right now.
So it's a, it's a harder conference to get to.
We're 45 minutes from any airport.
It's out in the middle of rural Kentucky.
And so we would love to, you know, hopefully end up with about 1,500 at the conference.
1,500 is awesome.
And you're right.
It's more expensive and not because of you guys, but it's like you've got to, you've got to pay for the arc and you got to pay for the conference and you got to get a car and drive 45 minutes.
So my family's coming and, you know, you know, the whole family.
And so I, I know, like, and you guys are helping, helping out because I'm speaking, but, I know, like, yeah, man, it's, you could buy a home or you could go to the Fight Laugh Feast conference.
And it's not your fault.
I'm not saying that that's not bad.
Almost.
But so we're very grateful.
You can't buy a home.
Yeah, you're right.
Interest rates are too high.
I mean, you were reaching them.
You might as well come to the conference.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
You're right.
So, one thing that I've been thinking about with the RR Arena book is, you know, I'm thinking about like Gandalf, You Shall Not Pass, standing in the middle.
It seems like one of the things he's saying is that this, It's inevitable this return to the strong gods because there's uh young men, especially society, I think a lot of society, but especially the young men know that we were duped, we were lied to, we were stolen from, and they're angry and understandably so.
Um, they're getting black pilled, right?
So it's still trying to figure out what to do with that anger, but um, but but they're angry, and and so it seems as though inevitably there's going to be a return to the strong gods.
And and real quick, if we haven't explained that clear enough, the the weak gods is like inclusivism, it's it's globalism, it's um, uh.
Principle pluralism, I would argue classical liberalism would be in it.
Like these are the weak gods, the strong gods are transcendent truths, things that would be true if you had never been born, like what Doug would say.
So it's religion, family, faith, it's patriarchy rather than egalitarianism, a hierarchy, you know.
So you got egalitarian feminism and then you got a hierarchical patriarchy, you know.
So it's these, and then it would be nationalism, and maybe that's not the best word, but it's nationalism versus over here, globalism.
And so my point is.
If this return to the strong gods, lowercase g, plural gods, is inevitable, and we want in that return for there to be a return not just to the strong gods, but to the strongest God of gods, King of kings, Lord of lords, Jesus Christ, then the way I see it is kind of back to the Rush Dooney thing.
It's not whether, but which.
I think we're going to shift.
I think the world is going to shift from globalism to nationalism.
So is it going to be Islamic or is it going to be Christian nationalism?
I think we're going to shift from feminism and egalitarianism to.
Patriarchy.
So is it going to be Andrew Tate or is it going to be, you know, Doug Wilson?
And I think we're going to.
And so my point is a lot of the, and I'm talking about brothers now, not you guys, but brothers in Christ, good brothers.
A lot of the dissidents that's happening is there are still some guys who think the middle will hold.
They think the middle will hold.
They think complementarianism, you know, it'll suffice.
They think that we don't need nationalism, you know, that they think classical liberalism, it's still good.
If, you know, it'll hold.
And so, what I'm trying to say is, you know, Gandalf is standing on the bridge, and I think he just needs to get off the bridge, you know.
So, my point is, I think we're going to go back to nationalism.
I think it'll be Christian nationalism.
You're going to have calls to prayer.
Will it be church bells or will it be Islamic calls to prayer?
And you're going to have patriarchy.
Is it going to be Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate or is it going to be biblical patriarchy?
But standing in the gap and straddling the line with both feet and saying, the middle ground is great, I think the world is done with.
That I just don't think that's going to work.
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The Problem with Neutrality00:14:44
I agree with you.
I just think also the way that the real world works is that there's always a whole bunch of people that don't want to get off the bridge, to continue your analogy.
And so, what the faithful have to do is go, they have to be obedient and they have to go build the cities, go build the shelters.
And you're absolutely right.
We're going to call to them and say, hey, come on, it's time to come.
And they'll say, no, I think we can hold it a little bit longer.
We can hold it a little bit longer.
And when their places are overrun, we need to be ready to welcome them when they come.
And Trump's going to be wanting to build a wall.
Yeah.
Which I'm down for that.
Keep the refugees from coming into the church.
You just changed everything.
I don't understand.
I'm down for that wall.
But that's another discussion.
Not that wall.
I was really thankful for Reno's book because I thought he did the best job I've heard dealing with multiculturalism.
Right.
And I think people have been really sloppy working through that concept.
The thing, the question that I have, and I would love to talk to Reno about this, and maybe when he comes on the show, we talk to him about it.
I don't know if it's the return as much as it is anything, right?
I think people just are saying, not that.
Not this.
Yeah, not this, not this, not this.
That meaning what we have right now.
What we currently have right now.
I don't know where we're going, but this right here, this is a storm and not this.
So I don't know if it's a return, because if it was a return, I would see a lot more repentance.
And I'm not seeing that necessarily.
Well, see, I think I'm seeing a lot of.
No, that's a great point, but I think what we're seeing is a lot of regret.
That's what I mean.
Worldly regret doesn't lead to repentance.
We're seeing a lot of regret, but I think the regret is enough to turn us back to the strong gods.
Repentance alone is enough to return us back to the strong God.
Does that make sense?
I like that.
I can give you one of those for that.
I agree.
But that's what scares me is that I don't hear enough of the repentance being proclaimed because this is why we're talking about people getting red pilled and then black pilled.
Right.
But ain't no Christ peel, right?
Actually, I think there are people getting Christ peeled.
I'm one of them.
But I'm yeah, I think we can see this is this is really a tough conversation to have in our current time and state because You guys got guys like Oliver Anthony and you're like, wow, look what God's doing there.
That's praise God for that and you know Joe Rogan is asking him his testimony like no, no explain to me what happened.
No, no, explain.
No, no, what did you start reading the Bible?
Right.
Yeah Keep asking Joe keep asking.
I'm gonna take the a win is a win.
Yeah a win is a win.
Okay, so I'm gonna take that that win.
That's a W right but I don't think it's the wind that we think it is.
And so there's another wind that needs to happen after that as a discipleship that we're not really working that one well, right?
And so we look at that one and think, ah, we're won.
If everything collapses tomorrow, like Joel says it might, and I'm very sympathetic to that, I think we're going to end up with a bunch of Oliver Anthonys in power.
Yeah.
Which is going to be a bunch of newborn Christians.
Which is going to be like kind of interesting and exciting.
But at the same time, I don't know.
Paul went through that.
But we don't know.
Like we're not going to know, like a whole bunch of people who don't know God's word.
Yeah.
and are trying to figure it out on the fly, which again, and maybe to your point, Knox, is it, yeah, it's maybe the book of Judges.
I mean, it like where it's pretty, it's pretty topsy-turvy.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
We know how to get.
Look, I'm going to tell you, though, the only ditches you want to be in at that point are your theonomists because they've been prepared.
They've been doing this thing.
They've been building this thing.
They've been stocking up toilet paper before COVID.
You know, look, I've always told my dad is an ex-special forces guy.
I've always told everybody, if something goes down, I know where I'm going.
Okay.
Me and my dad ain't on the best of terms, but I know I'm in his door.
I'm going to tell you that right now.
I know he got the amp.
Anyway, I ain't going to tell on him.
But I think we're going to have to have those enclaves.
Like Pastor Toby was talking about earlier, they're still on the bridge.
And we're going to have to create those enclaves and say, listen, brother, when you get ready and before you go down and die, come on back.
We got you.
And we saw that happen in COVID.
That's right.
Look what happened.
Look at the places where people moved to.
They found education and they found schools.
You know how long we've been telling people to pull their kids out of government schools?
Yeah.
And it took a flu.
And we couldn't convince them.
It took a flu.
But years.
But look what God did.
So, look what God did.
And so, this is why I'm saying, like, I'm not mad at the mess because I know God works with that, but look at what it's done.
People are mad at the system while they still are in the system.
Yeah.
Right.
Hey, you know, and it's like, if you think it's broken and like, don't you know that it's entangled?
Exactly.
And you have the ability to do it, right?
This is what we were talking about a little bit earlier, which is like, you can still make stuff.
You can still do stuff.
Right.
You don't have to be attached to it that way.
And it still has an impact. on the thing up here that you want to get at, right?
So I appreciate what he's saying and I think where he's going with this.
I'm just wondering that in between time, as they're trying to, before they get to the true God, what's in between that we're going to have to work through and work out?
Yeah.
This might be, this might take us in a slightly different direction, but one of the questions I want to ask him, and I'm curious, Joel, if you have any thoughts on this, is I really do, like, I see what he's talking about.
I see the narrative.
Yeah.
And it makes sense to me.
I think something like that did happen.
The one thing that didn't sit right or the thing that's just like, I'm just not quite sure how to fit into the equation is that basically we agreed to right and left, conservative and liberal, agreed to the weak gods, this open society, and we did it with the blood of 65 million babies.
That is not a weak God.
Strong gods demand blood.
And so that's the part of the narrative that doesn't work.
I don't understand that part.
Because that's a lot of heart disease.
That's 65 million babies.
That's makes the Aztecs look like boy Scouts.
That's not even worldwide.
What that count is no, led led by America, and i'm just like, so it's like i'm I don't know like.
That's the one thing that I don't understand and i'm not sure it's like.
Second Corinthians says that um Satan comes as an angel of light, and I love how Cs Lewis also pictures um Satan as sort of like the ultimate, um anal retentive bureaucrat.
Yeah Right.
And so there's something about that where it's like, you know, the devil is this tidy minded, perfectionistic accountant with his pants pulled up to his armpits.
And, and like that's what the devil is.
Right.
And, and it seems to me that there was a certain sense in which that's who's been running our country for the last 60 or 70 years and, and who said basically, we're going to, we're going to keep it all neat and tidy.
No one's, and so it's both in a sense.
It's like, it really is that open society.
It is like no sharp edges, no strong feelings.
But it's like, but maybe that's the most devilish, demonic society of them all.
Yes.
Because I think so.
Because at least the strong gods, so to speak, are out in the open.
Like the racist god, the god who demands blood sacrifices on the altar in the middle of town is like, well, there you go.
Well, the strong gods have a standard.
So even if it's a false strong god, there's still a standard that's external that people can read the sign, they can read the rules, they can know.
If you're in, if you're out, you know, what you have to do.
But the weak gods, Toby, you made a great point.
But I don't think that it's 65 million babies murdered in their mother's womb over the past 50 years that that's, well, that's a strong God.
No, I think the death toll is just higher with weak gods.
I really do.
I think that as bad as Hitler was, I think that you can look to some of these weak gods, other dictators.
Hitler, You know, would directly, whether you know, concentration camp or something, directly kill this many, right?
Hitler killed his thousands, but Stalin his tens of thousands.
Like, my point is the weak gods, they don't necessarily put people in a gas chamber.
What they do is they'll starve 10 million people or 100 million.
You know, like the weak gods are just, they're weak.
Weak men kill people.
Joe Biden is responsible for more deaths in his presidential term than I mean, when you think of what just what's even going on between Russia and Ukraine, you.
Weakness, when men are weak, when leaders are weak, when gods are weak, people die.
I think that.
So the weak gods don't do the killing.
The weak gods just remove all the barriers to protect.
You know, I think that's what happens.
That's helpful.
That's helpful.
Wasn't that some of the problem with strong gods too?
That people love things too much.
And with abortion, they love something a lot to give up their kids.
Right.
So you have this connection between their loves being strong is what's defining the strong gods.
And Reno does hint at this in various places when talking about the weak gods, that it's.
Inherently unstable.
Idolatry is.
Yeah, because people really are made in the image of God and we are inherently, we desire to love and to serve.
And so I think maybe that would be the answer is that, yeah, I mean, we kind of have this uneasy truce, but it's not holding because you don't really ever, like, you can't neuter the image of God ultimately.
And so there's always going to be this deep love.
And though the weakness is sort of the, whatever, the uneasy truce, You're right.
They'd loved something very, very deeply to kill their own babies.
But they didn't love faith, religion, family, father, nation.
They loved self.
And they loved, they loved, it was, you know, I've said multiple times a nation can either worship women or save babies, but it can't do both.
They loved, so even that was, yes, we could say it's an idolatry of personal convenience and individuality, but really in many ways it was egalitarianism.
Everybody's equal.
It was feminism.
It was the love, the thing that they were loving was the inclusivism, weak God, that just that weak God puts up a bigger death toll.
And then the strong gods.
And I think, you know, my back to what you were saying, Toby, because I think you're right.
The strong gods, we haven't thought in these terms, but the strong gods, they are viable, not eternally, not indefinitely viable.
But Islam has at least a reproductive plan, right?
Where secularism doesn't.
And so I think that, like, the reason I think you're.
That's good, Joel.
And so my point is, like, obviously, like, Allah is not God.
He's a false God.
But when you think of Islam and even various forms of paganism, you know, whether it's Norse mythology, These things, they still have patriarchy.
They have love for the fatherland.
They have family is good.
Wives and children are good.
Wives should submit to their husband.
And sure, some of them are too far.
Like wives are just slaves, you know, or women have no rights at all.
But my point is, those basic premises of we love our nation, we love our family, children are a good thing.
If a guy has 10 kids, he's bragging about it instead of thinking, oh, I've been cursed.
Like that, you find those basic things in Islam.
You find it in Buddhism.
You find it in.
Norse mythology, the only thing you don't find it in is secularism.
It's the crazy, weak, weak gods.
And so I think that secularism is, when you look at human history, it's the misnomer.
It doesn't stand out as patterns in multiple cultures over multiple centuries.
It's this misnomer, and it only was allowed to exist because not just the strong gods, but the strongest God of all, Jesus Christ, was so prevalent in the West for so long and built up such a juggernaut, so many resources, so much blessings, so much.
That we thought that we could be independent, that we didn't need any gods anymore, that man could actually be his own God, that man could be the measure of all things.
And so that's a unique thing.
I think that's a really unique thing.
And what you just said, Chalk, that would make sense too.
If it's happened anywhere else, it would be Israel because Israel would be the only other society under the old covenant that had enough blessing from God and enough lineage of obedience to actually think that they could be independent.
Nobody else would think that.
Babylon, Assyria, everybody else would think that.
So that's good.
That's actually really helpful, Joel, because I think you're right.
Abortion is the sacrifice that we paid for the weakness of impotence.
That was the blood offering that we paid so that our sex would be meaningless rather than potent and powerful in building families and generations and nations.
And then the other piece is I think you're right, connecting that to the traditional religions of the strong gods.
I think this is why C.S. Lewis talked about how, I mean, his own testimony is one of being enabled initially with Norse religion and Greek mythology.
And he describes that as sort of a kind of proto gospel of beginning to see like the story, the mythologies of the gospel, they were false and twisted in various ways, but saw God even in those false mythologies as preparing ancient pagan peoples. for the true myth of Christ, the Son of God, who died and rose again for the salvation of the world, the true strong God.
That's good.
The true Son of God.
And one last thing would be, I don't know if you've ever read it before.
This guy's really wonky in certain ways, but Eastern Orthodox guy named David Bentley Hart has a great essay called Christ and Nothing.
And he basically argues that very point.
Again, pretty wonky in some areas.
But on this particular essay, it's been a while since I read it, but he argues that it was basically the success of the gospel that has created this sort of this emptiness.
And then we went in for nihilism because there was nothing.
Left.
Right.
Because Christ conquered all the other gods.
And I think it fits with what you were saying.
Warnings Against Secularism00:03:53
Like secularism only thrives in a place where Christ has conquered all the false gods.
That's why you get all the warnings.
It's a parasite.
That's why you get all the warnings before you go into the promised land.
Yeah.
That's why you get so many warnings.
Yeah.
Don't be like them.
Right.
That's all the warnings are telling you that.
Although you're right.
But I think the point is also like that notion of like, but even when you've driven out all the gods, yeah, that the temptation to create a really Even more unnatural religion of neutrality and secularism where there's no God.
It's the seven demons.
I think it's before the seven demons, it's the house swept clean and empty.
That's right.
And put in order.
And what sweeps the house clean.
That's the nothing.
Exactly.
What sweeps the house clean, and that's what Jesus did in Israel.
I mean, he's literally just casting out demons left and right, you know, because Israel's just thoroughly demon possessed.
And he's casting out all these demons, but he came to his own and they received him not.
And, you know, they said, let his blood be on us and our children forever and put the son of God to death.
And 40 years later, boom, they're crushed.
And I think that's what the West is like.
The West, Christ, the true strong God, he's the only one who has the strength to cast out all the other strong gods, to cast out the demons.
But then you have Christendom that put the West in order, but now it's empty, you know.
And now, so this is my last thought.
My concern is that it won't just be back to Norse mythology or it won't just be back to our white pagan roots.
Yeah, it'll be seven worse demons that secularism has actually set the stage for, and not just secularism, but a prior Christendom.
What can seven demons do with a house that's so put in order and so clean and so empty that it's got AI technology and nuclear technology?
And what can they do with that?
It's one thing when it's tomahawks, you know, but it's another thing when it's silicon.
And so, you know, that's my fear.
And, The only, I think the only bulwark to stop that is Jesus Christ to return to Christianity.
And my fear is all these young men, they're tired of weakness.
And you know what they're convinced of?
I'm talking to a lot of these guys offline.
They're convinced that Christianity is one of the weak gods.
And so I think one of the things the church has to do in not just regret, but repentance, what you're saying, Chalk, is we need to repent of portraying a weak Christ.
We need to actually repent.
We syncretized classical liberalism.
In the Christian faith, we syncretized some of these weak gods with, and we emphasized his death, but we forgot about his resurrection, right?
We emphasized that he's, you know, we'll write books about him being meek and mild, but none about him being triumphant, you know, and so I think that's what we have to get back to.
And we can't overcorrect either.
We got to, yeah, he died.
He died, but also, he rose from the dead, you know, and I think we've got to convince young men in the West.
That they don't need to go to Islam, that Christianity is a strong God.
But what we're up against is our own Christian brothers insisting from larger platforms than ours that Christianity is, don't you worry, it's as weak and non threatening as you can possibly get.
So, I think we have to deal with that so that they can keep their donations from women.
There's no doubt that we need to deal with that, Joel, and I'm totally with dealing with that.
I got my eyes on them as well, but we also don't want to let the seculars define for us what strength is.
That's true.
Yeah.
Right?
They don't get to define that either.
That's right.
You're right.
You're right.
Hey, appreciate you, Joel.
We got to run, but thank you guys so much for coming on the show.
My guy, keep up the good work.
You too.
Cheers.
See ya.
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Enter the Mercy Meadows Giveaway00:02:09
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This innovative system is designed to guarantee uninterrupted compound interest and tax free growth without exposure to typical stock market risk.
To join this growing community that is already building wealth unto future generations and converting post mill.
Talk into post mill action.
Contact private family banking partner Chuck de Lauderante at his email, Chuck at Private Family Banking.com.
That's Chuck at Private Family Banking.com.
Set up an appointment and receive a free copy of Chuck's new book, Protect Your Money Now How to Build Multi Generational Wealth Outside of Wall Street and Avoid the Coming Banking Meltdown.
Go to the links in the show notes below.
Are you looking for a Christian owned and operated cattle company that delivers high quality beef to your doorstep?
If so, you'll love Mercy Meadows Ranch.
Our friends at Mercy Meadows share our values and vision, making the Dominion Mandate a reality.
They raise top quality beef without any vaccines, hormones, or antibiotics.
To celebrate their fall bulk beef launch, they're giving away a free 10 pound box of ground beef to one of our listeners.
You could be the winner of this amazing grass fed grain finished beef.
Are you looking for beef to fill the freezer?
Then check out their delicious steaks, roast fajitas, and ground beef shipped free directly to your door.
Don't miss this chance to enter this incredible giveaway.
Just click the link in the description below to enter the giveaway.
Mercy Meadows Ranch is the best choice for Christian families who want to eat healthy and support Christians serving Christians.