Pastor Joel Webbin and Doug Wilson dissect Christian nationalism, rejecting the "woke left's" conflation with white supremacy while advocating a gradual shift from secularism to a biblically ordered nation. They distinguish soft kinism from hard racism, emphasizing shared cultural history over biology and calling for immigration limits to preserve a common ethne. The discussion outlines a theological framework where Christ heads the state, urging magistrates to uphold the Ten Commandments via common law principles rather than direct Mosaic statutes. Ultimately, they warn that true societal restoration requires patience, self-control, and reliance on Christ alone, not ethnic identity or revolutionary ideology. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Christian Nationalism and Coffee00:03:25
All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
Now, in this particular episode, I'm having a conversation with Voldemort, he who must not be named Doug Wilson himself.
And the conversation is about Christian nationalism, particularly, and I'm not asking this question in a facetious manner.
I mean it.
Are we about to have egg on our face for owning this label of Christian nationalism?
Christian nationalism was always meant to be a pejorative, it was a bunch of progressive leftists calling any Bible believing Christian.
A Christian nationalist, right?
They were trying to link us with the Third Reich, with Hitler, with, you know, some kind of horrible, terrible thing.
But certain individuals in the Christian world, like Doug Wilson and like myself, have said, you know what?
We'll own it.
We're Christian nationalists.
So what?
What are you going to do about it?
And so we're working with this term.
We're not picking it out of a hat.
We're not saying we like it, but we're working with the term.
But the question is now, is that going to backfire?
Now, this is a pre recorded episode.
We've launched it before.
This is a rerun, but it's one of my all time favorites.
You're going to love it.
If you haven't watched it before, This episode, it is evergreen.
In fact, it's become more timely today than it was when we first recorded it.
So let's go ahead and dive in.
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Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
And this episode, I am very privileged to welcome back for the 17th time, not quite that many, but certainly a regular guest, Pastor Doug Wilson.
Wilson, thank you for joining us.
Hey.
Good to see you.
It's great to be here.
So, we are, as we're recording, it's December 1st.
So, you've just rounded out the month of November, which is not just NQN, but NQNQ, because it's the fifth time.
Right?
And so, I keep wondering, you know, what is he going to burn down next?
You know, I mean, at this point, we wonder the same thing.
Right.
Hopefully, not a church.
You know, I feel like that might, you know, kind of cast the wrong message.
Unless it was.
Yeah, unless it was a rainbow flag, you know, flying church, and, you know, maybe you could get away with it.
But all that being said, I don't know if you're prepared to share this information.
I know you guys want to drop it first, and this episode wouldn't drop for a couple weeks, but can you give me a general idea?
Because one of the things I love that you do is after November, you give us an update of God's providence and His grace and how much reach, you know, canon and blog and may blog and those kind of things.
Are there any sneak peeks that you can give us?
Yeah, we haven't.
We've got to assemble the data.
But I just checked this morning.
We give away books, for example.
Canon gives away a boatload of books, and I give away ebooks from my website.
And I just checked this morning and I gave away between 6,000 and 7,000 books.
Wow.
How does that compare with last year?
I haven't looked at last year, but I know that Canon Press's giveaways early in the month were at least double.
Last year.
So it really exploded.
So we've given away over November with Mayblog and Canon Press, we've given away tens of thousands of books.
Wow.
Praise God.
Man, I feel like, so I've got the Canon app.
Most of the guys and gals in our church have it also.
And Christians always do things.
And it's like, I think Jeremy Boring from Daily Wire said it.
But usually conservatives and Christians, the four B's, they get beat.
They bemoan, that's kind of the chair, but he uses a different B.
But they get beat, they bemoan, and then they boycott.
But people want entertainment, they want coffee, so boycott usually lasts a fortnight.
And then they beg for donations.
And I feel like Christians are notorious for that.
And I was going to get the Canon app, just if nothing else, just to support the ministry.
And I can honestly say that I feel like I'm getting more than an $8 a month value.
You guys put together something that's Really remarkable.
So well done.
That fourth B, or maybe the second one, ought to be built.
Right.
Well, that's what I was going to say scratch all four of those Bs.
Well, most of them.
And then, yeah, the fifth B should, yeah, build.
And that's what you're building.
Yep.
Praise God.
Okay.
So, this is what I wanted to ask you.
I gave you a little bit of a heads up before we hit record.
But, Christian nationalism, I love the way that you've defined it and just saying that there are technically six categories if we look at tribalism, nationalism, globalism on the one hand.
And then over here, Christian or not Christian.
And you've kind of pieced in as a primary example secularism, secular humanism.
So, if those are, then we have six categories Christian, tribalism, or secular tribalism.
And on and on, nationalism and globalism.
And when you put it like that, it's just like, okay, what Christian is not a Christian nationalist?
So, in that sense, I'm like, yeah, I'm a Christian nationalist.
I don't agree with everything with Wolf, and I know that you don't either.
He's more Thomistic.
Whereas I always, natural revelation, natural law, yes and amen.
But I also, maybe it's the Van Til in me, but I always want to remind people, but God wrote a book, and we can use the book.
And so there's some distinctions there, but I really think that this Christian nationalism thing, if it's going to have Any, you know, call it mere Christendom, call it whatever you want, but just the civil magistrate submits to Christ.
No separation between Christ and state.
Church and state is different than.
And so, yes and amen, the nations are Christ's inheritance.
They must be Christian.
And that's got to be a big tent.
And so, if some Thomas want to get on, hop on with that, praise God, and we can have a debate later on.
So, I'm grateful for Stephen Wolf and talk to him offline some and grateful for what he's doing.
But I feel like.
And I know you're aware of this.
It seems like there are some very, very large potential pitfalls.
Guys want to make Christian nationalism.
The guys who don't like it, they want to make it white Christian nationalism.
They want to tie it in with the kinest.
And you did a good job saying you guys think that you're leading the charge, but you're the soft underbelly.
And so, what is your prediction in terms of what is Christian nationalism just going to blow up in our face?
Are we all going to have egg on our face and regret?
Using that title, what's going to happen the next two, three, four, five years?
Yeah.
So, supposing that it does blow up and supposing that we do have egg on our face, those six options remain the six options.
Right.
Right.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter if we get embarrassed or not.
Those are the options.
So, what I'd like to do in response to this is sort of maybe shift the metaphor that we use on getting from here to there, because I think a lot of people freak out.
Because they have the wrong metaphor running in their head.
And then talk about what I think the challenge of kinism and things like that present to us.
So, when conservatives, Burkean conservatives like myself, are suspicious of ideology, an ideologue is someone who's got the whole thing mapped out.
And give him the plans, give him a flag and a direction to march and a gun to shoot, and he's going to go.
Try to implement that ideology.
Okay.
The problem, the essential difference between a reformer and a revolutionary is patience.
A reformer is patient, revolutionaries always impatient, and revolutionaries are always ideologues.
But in order to abstain from ideology, it's not necessary to have no idea where you're going or no idea of what the ideal society ought to be.
It's the presence of patience, not the absence of a plan.
That's good.
That's good.
Okay.
So here's the metaphor that I think a lot of people stumble over.
Let's say we're talking with different people about our ideal society.
The temptation is to think that we're going into a restaurant and we're sitting down and ordering off the menu.
And if I persuade my, hey, come on, let's get the steak or come on, let's get the pasta.
And we think that when we order it, then it's going to come out of the kitchen hot and ready to go and be placed on the table in front of us.
And everybody's talking as though.
Christian, a Christian nation is going to arrive straight out of the kitchen.
Okay.
But we have the challenging problem of getting from here to there.
Yeah.
Right.
And so I want to shift the metaphor.
I want us to say we're not sitting at a table in a restaurant preparing to order off the menu.
Rather, we're cooks in the kitchen standing around the pot, and the pot is full of chicken curry.
And the Lord has told us in the Great Commission that when we're done, he wants the pot.
To be full of beef Stroganov.
Okay.
Now, how some miracles have to, there have to be some remarkable things happen here in order for this to happen.
But when I'm looking at this, and I, let's say, with the various differences I've got with Stephen Wolf, when I look at what he's talking about, I'm asking myself, is this a step or two closer to beef Stroganov than what we have now?
Yes, it is.
Okay, it manifestly is.
All right, it's a step in the right direction.
Now, we can adjust sauces and we can adjust ingredients down the road, but this is a step in the right direction.
And the other cooks standing around the pot, some of them want to put arsenic in it, some of them want to fill it up with water.
You know, they've got all these competing things.
And I'm saying, no, I'm with Stevens so far as it goes.
Let's go this direction.
What some of them want to do is they want to say, Doug, If you weren't so racist, you would appreciate the curry.
It's an ethnic dish.
You want the beef stroganoff because it's a white bland dish.
That's what they're going to say.
So I'm going to have to fix my metaphor.
Yeah, you're going to have to fix the metaphor.
It's not going to be.
I'm going to have to go from beef stroganoff to, well, actually, I need to have beef stew or Irish stew or something like that.
Yeah, there you go.
Something from the UK.
And we go toward curry.
Exactly.
And then everyone will see that I'm not a racist.
And they will apologize.
Racism, Reason, and Persecution00:11:10
Right.
That's right.
So.
Having said that, that means that when you, if I'm, if I make a decision to go in the direction of what I think will result in a better society 150 years from now, there really is room for discussion and debate.
There's also room for the unreasonable types to get in there and discuss and debate.
Okay.
And so we have to walk in wisdom and keep certain people away from the spices.
Right.
Okay.
And, Uh, and this is where it gets down to the practical um uh issues.
I believe that we have to keep um three categories kinest adjacent, soft kinest, and hard kinest.
Okay, okay.
Um, and a hard kinest would be what in the popular parlance is a racist.
So a hard kinest would be a racist.
I don't like using the term racist, I used to um, until I spent a lot of time working through this, and I don't see race.
As a biblical category.
Right.
I see kin, tribes, languages, ethnicities, that absolutely is a biblical category.
But race, as in Caucasian, Asian, I don't see that as a biblical category.
That's something that we talk to medical doctors or biologists about.
That's not a biblical category.
So I want to talk in terms of ethnicity.
Right.
And when it comes to ethnicity, the New Testament is filled with references to in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave free, and so on.
Now, Stephen is absolutely right that the fall did not alter basic human relationships.
It's not Adam and Eve after the fall were still married.
They didn't have to get married again.
In a post lapsarian world, they were married before, they're married after.
The children that they have, if they had had unfallen children, the children would have been children, right?
Brought up and nursed by Adam and Eve, nursed by Eve and brought up by Adam.
And after the fall, that's what happened.
So natural relations at that level, like that, are sort of a constant.
But idolatry, because of the fall, comes in.
Okay, so how do you, for example, thread the needle that Stephen wants us to thread and that I want to thread of respecting and honoring your natural relations out past your grandparents?
Okay, your clan, your tribe, especially in an unfallen world where nobody's dying.
Right?
You can go visit your great, great, great, great grandma.
And so you've got that situation.
That's one thing.
And I'm with Stephen completely in his definition of that.
But in a fallen world, let's say you are trying to get from the Curry to the Stroganoff in a Confucian country where respect for your parents is all tied up with ancestor worship.
Right.
Okay.
And if you.
If you suddenly decide I'm not going to worship my ancestors anymore, and this was my mom was a missionary in Japan, and this was a big issue in Japan.
If a young person converts to Christianity and stops worshiping ancestors, there is absolutely no way for that to register in any other way than disrespect for his parents.
Okay, so there's got to be a clash or a revolution or some sort of showdown.
At this, there's a dis.
So, when we're getting from curry to stroganoff in the kitchen, at some point there's going to be a fight.
Right?
At some point, there's going to be persecution.
At some point, it's going to be disruptive.
And that's why Jesus says, You can't be my disciple if you love father, mother, wife, sister, brother, children more than me.
You can't be my disciple.
So, that's a non negotiable of Christian discipleship.
Right.
No, I believe the danger is because of the woke jihad, where people of my background, ethnic makeup, white Anglo Saxon Protestant or middle class or hillbilly elegy material, people like that have been vilified for a few decades now.
Yes.
And because the church.
The church at large, the Reformed Evangelical Church at large, has gone limp on this.
The people in that category feel manifestly unprotected.
And they start listening to alternative voices who can give them an explanation for this treatment that they're getting and instruction on how to respond.
And there are different shades of red pill, right?
Right.
Some deep, some red pills are really, really red, and some red pills are just slightly pink.
But there are a lot of people who are now in a position where they are listening to kinists.
And as much as I repudiate the kinist take, my foundational accusation for the existence of kinism lies with the soft left, the soft woke evangelical left.
They're the ones who created this.
Yes.
100%.
Yep, I completely agree.
And we see that.
I mean, we've seen that in real time with Thomas Accord, right, which was just a hit on Stephen Wolfe, you know, and it's sad what happened to him.
And yet at the same time, it's also that's why we have to have self control.
And just as a practical tip, one of the guys in my church, as we were talking about the situation, he said, it's a good time to remember that burner accounts are meant to eventually be burned.
You know, you want to get rid of those from time to time.
I'm not against.
The pseudonyms.
I mean, we have a rich history, you know, within the American tradition and beyond, you know, writing under a pseudonym, but it has bit quite a few Christians in the butt.
I think of, you know, even Driscoll.
I think he went under the pseudonym William Wallace II and got in quite a bit of trouble.
But all that being said, you know, it's this hit on Stephen Wolfe, which by proxy, that's also a hit on canon.
And it usually comes ahead with Voldemort, you know, he who should not be named, yours truly.
You know, but, you know, so that's kind of the play.
But isn't it remarkable?
And you mentioned this, and some other guys that I've been talking to, you know, who had a relationship with Thomas, you know, and talking to offline, they're not condoning racism, but they are, you know, sympathetic and compassionate in the right way that a Christian should be.
And saying, isn't it remarkable how there's so much compassion for sodomy?
But there's zero compassion for, you know, kinism and racism.
And, you know, and, And I think that right now that you're right.
I think the Overton window is moving.
I keep thinking about you particularly because the Overton window is moving in such a way.
Some things, you know, all of it in God's providence and some things good and then some things bad.
It's, you know, a reaction, an overreaction and coming out of spite and vengeance.
But if this continues to happen, I think that you have a real potential of being viewed as a moderate, you know, that reasonable, you could be viewed as a reasonable evangelical within the next five to 10 years.
I know.
That's the kind of thing that makes me wake up screaming.
That's the thing that keeps you up at night.
I've actually seen that.
I've seen that starting to develop.
And there's a certain area, there's a certain respect in which I want that to be the case.
So let's say things get.
Somebody once said about an ethnic war.
There's one thing about an ethnic war you don't have to pick sides, the other side does that for you.
Okay.
You don't have, basically, when things come down to the point, you can't take your own personal opinions about whether any of this should have happened.
And then, because of those opinions, walk through a part of a city that is dominated by a group that is at war with people who look like you.
You don't have that luxury.
Okay.
Now, you should have your own thought through opinions, but you should also be aware of what's going on in the world outside you.
Now, I've wanted to position myself and conduct myself in such a way that when we, If we ever get to the point where someone says, Hey, can we have peace?
Can we have some peace talks?
Okay, who should we talk to on the other side?
I want to be the kind of person that they would say, Wilson is prepared to be reasonable.
Now, being reasonable doesn't mean being compromised, but there's a difference between combatants who are fire eaters, who they all want to do is fight, and combatants who understand the principle.
And, you know, I would say be the difference between Nathan Bedford Forrest and Robert E. Lee.
Okay?
So you've got.
I want to be the sort of person that when peace is possible without compromise, I'm willing to talk about it because I haven't lost my temper.
Right, right.
There are some people, especially in the aftermath of the accord thing, some people online who just.
Lost their temper.
And on both sides.
Defining Faith vs Nation00:15:36
On both sides.
Yeah.
And I don't think we're helping anything when we lose our tempers.
I completely agree.
So, all that being said, I've got two ideas I want to run by you and just get your response.
So, the first one, in line with what we're talking about, you know, the dangers of being a hard chemist and those kinds of like, yes, we, of course, natural affections are a thing.
I love my wife more than other people's wives.
And if I didn't, I'd be in sin.
You know, I love my children.
Yeah.
More than my neighbor's children, and so on and so forth.
And the question is, how many ripples out can we go?
But there's something to be said for Romans 9 with the Apostle Paul.
I'd be willing to go to hell, which I don't know if I could say for anybody personally.
I'm a little bit self preserving in that regard.
But he's willing to go to hell for his kinsmen according to the flesh, his fellow Israelites.
And so there's something to be said there.
But when I think of Christian nationalism working, I think one of the reasons why the kinness conversation keeps coming up is people.
It's almost in some ways easier to define this.
Is what I've bumped up against as I've been talking to people, you know, in this orbit.
It's almost easier to define Christian, uh, than nation.
Um, and and so some guys are wanting that ethnoid to wrap it around ethnicity, whereas, whereas I feel, um, and and and I was looking at that and saying, well, maybe they have a point, you know, and really trying to consider that, um, and give it a fair shake.
But but what I've landed on is I think part of the problem with America is just, you know, well, decadence, you know, you track uh empires, the fate of empires, and decadence, and it leads to.
At a hyper level, where you basically have a death wish, you become suicidal, everyone else can succeed except for us, self loathing.
It's riddled in guilt rather than Christian gratitude for the blessings of God.
You feel guilty for the blessings of God.
But all that wrapped in what I think of as not the melting pot of multiple ethnicities in our nation, but just the extreme amount of immigration.
I feel like you can have 20% of the nation that's white and black, and 20% that's white, 20% that's black, brown, and so on.
And if we just limited no illegal immigration, and then even with legal immigration, it's vastly limited, and you just let 30 years go by.
Or let's say 50, to where my grandkids, they're like, yeah, grandma and grandpa, you know, or grandpa, he fought the same wars.
They worked in the same jobs.
They went to the same churches.
And we're American.
We have this shared history.
And that would be enough.
I don't feel like it needs to all be white or it needs to all be.
I think it's that shared history.
It needs time.
It can be different pigment, but it does need to be a similar culture.
There's a commonality of not skin pigment.
Uh, pigment not color but culture, and and part of for that to happen, um, requires a um, it's a stableness within it, and we're just so unstable right now with influx of do you feel like that's that's that is absolutely the case, okay?
So, um, one of the things that this is another, um, we're not our part of our problem is that we think in simplistic categories.
So, for example, in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin.
He was a Jew.
He was a citizen of Tarsus, no mean city, and he was a Roman citizen.
Right.
Now, those are very different layers of allegiance.
Paul was willing to use his Roman citizenship.
He knew his rights, in other words.
He was up on basic Roman civics.
And he was, there seems to be a little measure of cavelling about his.
City, Tarsus, which was in Cilicia, and he was a Jew of Jews, circumcised on the eighth day.
So when we look at when people talk about nationalism or kinism, everybody thinks immediately that it's a mono ethnic nation like Japan is.
Okay, so Japan is overwhelmingly one ethnicity, and people think, well, if you're talking about that.
Then that's what you've got in mind for America.
You want to exclude everybody who doesn't fit your particular DNA imprint.
Well, I talked to Stephen Wolf about this, and he agreed with me that Americans are an ethne.
We have a shared cultural history, language, cuisine, sports teams, history, wars our dads and granddads fought in.
You know, that's.
That's part of what brings us all together.
That sort of thing can form and can have a profound tie or a profound claim on people's allegiance.
But what disrupts it is if you bring in immigrants like a flood at a rate far more rapidly than can be assimilated.
So the issue is not whether a family.
A white family, for example, can adopt a black child.
They most certainly can.
Or adopt a Mexican child.
They can.
And God bless them when they bring them up in the nurture and administer the Lord.
You know, this is great.
But if they adopted 150 Mexican children, right?
Right.
Right.
Then they are not going to do a good job with anybody.
They're not going to do a good job with their own kids.
They're not going to do a good job with the kids that they've brought in.
They're just going to be swamped.
They're going to do a terrible job and the whole thing's going to blow apart.
And so the issue is so when I say that, well, we need to have control of our borders, it's not because I want to keep people out.
It's because I want to make sure that we have a judicious handling of this so that we can bless the maximum amount of people.
So if we should want, we should be a welcoming nation and we should, I think, be.
America is a mutt nation.
Right.
Right.
We're not mono ethnic like the Japanese or the Swedes.
We are from all over.
Yep.
And that's part of our ethnicity.
That's part of our melting pot identity.
Right.
But the pot has got to stay hot enough to melt things.
Right.
If right now we're just making a salad with croutons from all over and.
It's not going to be only croutons and it's not going to be a very good salad.
Right.
We got to get back to the soup and now we need the stroganoff.
Right.
Yeah.
We need to focus on food, whatever we do.
Whatever it is.
And it needs to be a hot dish.
It needs to be a hot dish with a ladle that we're starting to get.
No, that's very helpful.
I completely agree.
And I think we need people, you know, so give us your tire.
Give us your, you know, I think there's something true in that.
But I think there's also, America needs to be for America.
And if America hates America, it's, it's, It's what you've said.
You know, a guy who says, you know, on Mother's Day goes and buys a car that, you know, my mom's the best mom in the world.
That guy has a better understanding when other people appreciate their mom than the guy who says, my mom's the worst mom in the world.
That guy's not going to respect anybody's mom.
And so, America needs to be for America.
And that's the best chance that America has in being a benevolent nation, not a global empire necessarily, policing, you know, the world or, as you've said, that, you know, the Coast Guard, global Coast Guard for the world.
Those days may be over and that may be in God's providence a good thing, but America should still be benevolent towards America.
Other nations, whether it rules them with an iron fist.
And that's only going to happen by stemming from America loving America.
And so we want people who come in to not just want to live here, but want to love here.
They don't just want to live in America, but they actually want to love America.
I feel like, for instance, so we have multiple families in our church all the way down in Georgetown, Texas, from Canada that have recently come over here because Canada has turned into, it's just, you know, Trudeau has lost his ever loving mind, and we're happy to have them.
And these are people who still love Canada.
But they also are working on developing a love and affection for America, not just benefiting from it, but wanting to be a blessing to this place and wanting to form an identity with this place.
And so I think people who love America, having a mitigated amount of people who are coming in that actually want to be Americans, not just reap the benefits, but they want to be Americans, they want our history to become their history and their grandchildren's history.
You do that, and I mean, easier said than done, but problem solved.
I think that that's a big, big part of it.
So, here's the second thing I wanted to run by you.
I think a lot of people with the Christian nationalism thing, so the six categories that you've coined is super helpful because I think that the reason why it's helpful is it's a compelling argument.
It forces people to actually, pretty much everybody has to say, okay, well, I'm in this category.
So with that, but brass tacks, practically, what does it look like to be a Christian nationalist?
And I've been thinking about that.
And I think whether you get to it through natural law and the Thomism, or whether you get there from a Vantillian, Greg Bonson, As you've said, a general equity theonomy.
In both instances, it seems like what we're advocating for is not just the second table of the law, but all Ten Commandments.
The civil magistrate, Christ is head of all things, Ephesians 1 22.
He's uniquely head of the church in the sense that the church is the only thing that Christ has died for, but he is head not exclusively.
So, uniquely head of the church, not exclusively head of the church, head of all things, including the state.
Church and state, but not Christ and state.
Caesar is God's deacon.
He needs to legislate and uphold all 10 commandments, not just the second table, but first also.
But then you bring in that's the theonomy.
And you bring in the post millennialism, hurry up and wait.
And you said something that I think bears repeating that the state should perhaps obey the first table of law for 200 years before it enforces it.
I thought that was so insightful.
And that's what I mean when I say.
Christian nationalism, we're not talking about rounding people up who are idolaters in the next 15 minutes.
And even 200 years from now, I think also another thing that you've said is a clear distinction between crimes and sins.
So even then, there's not this breaking into someone's home because of their private Islam worship, but there is something to be said for public expressions, high places in a nation.
And again, after a couple of centuries, and even then, at that level, before the mosque is under question, Wouldn't it be the public teaching of atheism to our children in state schools through evolution that that high place would come down first?
Am I on the right track?
Anything you would add to that?
This is absolutely right.
And the issue is not whether or not we want a society to be conforming to the Ten Commandments and living under the blessing of the living under Deuteronomic blessings.
Right.
Because we're walking.
Under the favor of God and obeying his law.
But we have to always remember, and this is the point you touched on, we have to always remember that when we are talking about suppression of blasphemy, I would say the first order of business is to suppress the magistrate's ability to blaspheme.
Because in history, the state, the king, the ruling authorities have overwhelmingly used blasphemy codes.
To impose their blasphemy.
And so we have to fix that problem.
Now, at some point, let's say we postulate some ideal Christian republic 500 years down the road, and some atheist loses his mind and goes down to the town square and starts blaspheming the name of God and the mother of Jesus.
And, you know, just should he be scooped up and taken in?
Well, yeah, I think that there are.
Places for the prosecution of blasphemy on that level.
But we have to remember that Jesus was executed on a blasphemy charge.
Right?
And that was the greatest blasphemy that our race has ever committed.
And we did it in the name of enforcing the law of God.
Yeah, we committed the greatest blasphemy ever by silencing blasphemy.
Right.
By quote unquote silencing blasphemy.
And I want to say okay, let's fix that problem first.
And that means limited government.
Okay, so if you gave a Martian a copy of the US Constitution, and he read it, reread it, one of the things he would come away with, and we talked to him afterwards and we said, What's the central takeaway message that you have from reading our founding document?
He would say, The central takeaway message is never trust an American.
Right?
And particularly, never trust an American politician with power.
Right.
That's why the separation of powers.
That's why the checks and balances.
Our system was a genius system for spreading the power as thinly as possible.
Now, it's true that if you remove from the state the power to blaspheme, they might not be able to handle the occasional rogue blasphemer out here.
But Christopher Dawson said the Christian church lives in the light of eternity and can afford to be patient.
And we're post millennial.
We want to be patient.
And so, as we are making our way toward this better society, we want a society in which blasphemy is not tolerated by anybody, particularly by the state.
Right.
Amen.
And to follow up with that, so it's all Ten Commandments, but hurry up and wait.
Let's have the state obey the first table of the law before it enforces the first table of the law.
Blasphemy and State Obedience00:09:13
Distinction between sins and crimes.
It's more so public expressions.
And again, with this waiting patience, public expressions of blasphemy and idolatry.
And then the only other thing I wanted to add to that, that I've also heard you and others, Durbin, say, that I think also is helpful for people when they're thinking, what would Christian nationalism, what is this dystopian going to look like?
Dystopia.
There's also, in terms of case law, so homosexuality, for instance, and the death penalty.
$5,000 fine and five years in prison as a maximum for throwing a candy bar wrapper out my window.
But I don't know anyone who's been in jail for five years for littering, right?
And so I think, could you talk about that a little bit in terms of looking at the civil codes given to Israel and knowing that we hold to the general equity?
And that's a thoroughly reformed confessional.
That's Westminster, it's 1689 on my end of things.
So it's not a one step process that you take the civil codes in Israel and you just carry them over and drop them in America in 2022.
But it's a two step process.
It's not that hard.
You take the civil code and you take it not to America, but you take it first back to the Ten Commandments as the blueprint, the moral law of God that ultimately is stemming to these codes.
And then you apply that given culture and technology and these kinds of things in America.
And then, even then, looking at the penalties now, not the codes, but the penalties for breaking the codes, viewing these within a maximum penalty mindset.
Could you talk about that for a moment?
Yeah.
So, when we talk about biblical law, we have to say it's not just when people think theonomy, they think that we're going to get a big crane, lift the Mosaic Code, and bring it over and drop it down on 21st century America.
No, that's not how it works because we're not just taking the content of the laws, we are imitating and taking over the entire legal system.
Okay, so the law of Moses was a case law system.
Right?
It was a common, our name for it is common law.
All right.
So, a case law system means that you have a particular law that embodies a principle.
You shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out the corn.
Okay.
And every pastor likes the general equity of that.
Right.
Right.
And that's what Paul is applying in the New Testament the general equity of that.
Exactly.
A laborer is worthy of his hire.
Now, what happens is if I'm.
If I'm my joke is if I were president, then what a glorious three days that would be.
Right.
But if I had the authority to make law, I would not make it illegal in the state of Idaho to boil a kid in its mother's milk.
And a kid being a baby goat, not a kid.
Yeah.
A kid being a baby goat.
Right.
Yeah.
Just a.
I wouldn't do that.
The reason I wouldn't make that against the law is because nobody's doing that.
Right.
It's not an issue.
It was an issue back in the day.
But What's the principle?
What's the general equity of that law?
Well, you shall not take that which was given by God as nourishment and life and turn it into an instrument of death.
That's right.
So it was lawful to take the baby goat and kill it and eat it.
That was lawful.
But you could not liturgically or ritually take his lifeblood, his nourishment, his milk, and make that the instrument of death.
Right.
You can't do that.
So let's say I'm a Christian judge.
In a theonomic republic, and I hand down a decision that prohibits women from serving in combat roles.
Okay, I could hand down a decision, and because it's a theonomic republic, I could say, No, women are not to serve in combat roles, and then cite the reference from Exodus I think it's in Deuteronomy also you should not boil a kid in his mother's milk.
Why?
Because women are life givers.
Do not turn life givers into death dealers.
Okay, so, and that's also why a lot of the warrior princess, spy, deadly female is kinky.
It's kinky that way.
They're trying to turn nurturers, women, life givers, into death dealers.
And so that's the general equity of it.
Now, when you do this, what King Alfred did, King Alfred took basically the laws of Deuteronomy and made them the laws of England.
And that worked because England was an agrarian society, much like Israel was.
But that was the beginning of our common law system.
And so, common law doesn't require you to have something on the books that we, again, I wouldn't make a law saying you have to have a parapet around the roof of your house.
Right.
Because in our society, nobody goes up there.
Right.
And every two story structure, AKA a balcony, we do it.
We already do it.
Correct.
And if you didn't do it and one of your dinner guests fell off a second story deck, then you should be liable at law for the damages.
And I would have no problem as a judge citing the scripture.
Right.
The scripture is authoritative.
Because that's because a common law system or a case law system is a system that's based on precedent.
So in Alfred's time, let's say a widow in Sussex had a case where the neighbor's dog ate her chicken.
And it went to court, and the case was decided.
And then 50 years later, someone's ox gored the neighbor's dog.
The judge in that case would look back at the precedent, and he would see the principle, he would see the general equity of the previous decision, and apply it in this new situation.
As opposed to the secularist who wants to have a volume, bound volumes of regulations that anticipate every contingency.
And if they didn't anticipate it properly, and you found the loophole, You're off scot free because they're trying to be omniscient.
They're trying to be omnipotent.
They're trying to be God.
Right.
Right.
With going back to the, you know, you shall not boil a kid, a baby goat, in its mother's milk, the instrument that God gave to be nourishment and life should not be used as an instrument of death.
With that, you know, you gave the example of women in combat.
Fantastic example.
Another one that I've actually used pastorally is that same verse the kid and the mother's milk.
In terms of the hormonal birth control pill, there's a difference in a condom.
There's a difference in planned abstinence periodically.
There's a difference in stopping an egg from being fertilized versus the hormonal birth control pill, which has three primary functions, but the third being that it actually thins the uterine wall.
So if a woman is meant to nurture, a woman's womb is meant to be a context of.
Conducive to creating life, sustaining life, giving life.
And so to take that womb and make it a death chamber.
So I would look at that.
So I'm asking you, is that fair use to say this is why there may be other ethical forms of planning in terms of children, but this is not one of them.
And this is why.
Correct.
The womb is a living room for the unborn.
Right?
It's a living room for the unborn.
Gotcha.
And And it's designed by God to be a place of hospitality.
It's designed by God to be a bed.
We just had these awful murders here in Moscow where these college students were murdered in their beds, which is a terrible place to be murdered.
It's never good to be murdered anywhere.
But there's a particular grievousness about being murdered in a place where you ought to be.
If there's any place on earth where you ought to be safe, it's in your own bed.
Right.
And what these abortion pills do is they turn that living room into a death chamber.
They turn the bed that ought to be hospitable and welcoming into a place that's inhospitable and unwelcoming.
And yes, and I would cite that verse in a decision like that.
Right.
And there's multiple verses that we could cite, but that would be one verse that we could use in a general equity fashion.
Christendom 2.0 Conference00:04:33
Fantastic.
Any final thoughts for our listeners, Pastor Doug?
No, this is going to be a rodeo.
Over the next five years, I believe that we are going to see a lot of conflict, a lot of excitement, a lot of misunderstanding.
And I would just tell your viewers, your listeners, to not lose their tempers.
Keep cool.
Love God.
Worship Him.
Don't take the bait.
Right.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very helpful.
And going back, circling back around to the kinest problem, don't go for quick fixes, cheap solutions.
The kind of thing that we need, the only way out for us is Christ.
It's Christ or chaos.
It's not white people or chaos.
It's Christ or chaos.
Amen.
Amen.
Well said.
Well, thank you so much, as always, for coming on the show.
I know that our listeners and myself personally benefit immensely from your ministry, your writing, your preaching, all those kinds of things.
And we pray that for this roller coaster over the next five years, we pray that even if it's a roller coaster for 15 years, that you would be on the roller coaster with us.
We'd like to have you on the ride.
So, thanks.
So, keep it up.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
You're going to want to hear this.
Our next two conferences are coming up quick.
We've got First, our fall conference.
This is November 11th and 12th.
That's a full day Saturday and a holdover for the Lord's Day, November 12th.
Who's speaking at this conference?
Well, we've got Jared Longshore and Chris Wiley and yours truly, Pastor Joel Webbin.
What's the title?
The title is The Household and the War for the Cosmos.
Now, I know you're thinking, wait a second, you can't use that title, Joel.
That's the title for Chris Wiley's book.
Well, I can use it because he's going to be there speaking and he gave me his permission.
We're going to be talking about The household as the basic building block for pushing back the kingdom of darkness in this world.
We're going to be talking about biblical patriarchy.
We're going to be talking about marriage and parenting, how to keep your kids, how to shape and form them like straight arrows, like sharp arrows that do damage to the kingdom of darkness, training our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
A full day on Saturday, November 11th, and then holding Jared Longshore over for the Lord's Day, November 12th.
To preach at my church, Covenant Bible Church, in Central Texas.
You can register at the early bird rate, which will not last long, but you can register at the early bird rate today by going to rightresponseconference.com.
Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.
Now, our second conference is our spring conference.
This is Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
The title for this conference, Blueprints for Christendom.
2.0.
Blueprints for Christendom 2.0.
We don't want to revert back to Christendom 1.0, although it would certainly be a whole lot better than the clown world that we're currently living in.
But we recognize, despite the phenomenal features of a prior Christendom, there were certain bugs that we'd like to see worked out.
So we're not going back.
We are pushing forward to Christendom 2.0.
We believe that the blueprints are seven doctrines for ruling the world righteously.
What are these seven doctrines?
Well, it's Reformed confessionalism.
It's covenant theology.
It's biblical patriarchy.
It's presuppositionalism and Kyperianism and general equity theonomy and hopeful eschatology, post millennialism.
Who's going to be teaching us on these doctrines?
Voldemort, he who must not be named, Pastor Douglas Wilson himself.
You also got Mr. Brighthearth, Mr. Kings Hall, Mr. Haunted Cosmos, Pastor Brian Sauvet.
And we also have Dr. Joseph Boot and, of course, yours truly, Pastor Joel Webbin.
We'll be doing seven primary lectures as well as two 90 minute panels with all the speakers together, and we'll likely add a couple more speakers along the way.
Again, that's March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
It's Blueprints for Christendom 2.0.
We've got the early bird rate going right now, but it will run out quickly.
So go to RightResponseConference.com, RightResponseConference.com to register today.