Pastor Joel Webben and Justin Peters expose the dangers of the Word of Faith movement, specifically targeting prosperity gospel figures like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, and Joyce Meyer. Drawing on Titus 1:9 and 2 Timothy 4:10-15, they argue that Scripture mandates naming specific false teachers such as Demas and Alexander to break emotional attachments hindering doctrinal correction. While acknowledging the complexity of regenerate believers drifting into error regarding social justice or penance, Peters insists persistent gospel distortion requires identification. Ultimately, this confrontation empowers all believers to refute deception, distinguishing between flawed foundations and unrepentant error while upholding sound doctrine. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Calling Out False Teachers00:11:04
Hey guys, real quick before we get started, I have a small request.
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Thanks.
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries, and you are in for a treat.
This is our all time most viewed by far.
Episode of Theology Applied We Have Ever Done.
My guest is none other than Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries.
This is our episode about calling out false teachers by name.
And yes, we intentionally use names.
Why?
Because the Bible tells us to name dangerous, poisonous, spiritually deadly false teachers.
This is our most viewed episode of all time.
Some of you.
Have seen this before and you need a refresher.
But many of you are tuning in.
Maybe you didn't even know our ministry existed back in the day when this episode first came out.
You're in for a treat.
It's our most popular episode by far.
What we're doing in the month of July is we're taking our four best episodes of Theology Applied and re airing them.
And this is the most popular one calling out false teachers by name myself and Justin Peters from Justin Peters Ministries.
Tune in.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
I'm Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
Today I'm honored to have as a special guest Justin Peters with Justin Peters Ministries.
He's been a blessing to me over the last couple of years.
He wrote an endorsement for the first book that I wrote, a book on the assurance of salvation.
And we had the pleasure of getting together and having lunch when I was still living in San Diego with one of our friends, Michael Cirillo.
And so he's just been a blessing to me.
I had conversations from time to time over the years and just his insight and his courage to be able to be a discernment minister, protecting the flock of God from ravaged wolves that would seek to devour the people of God if they could.
And so I'm grateful for him.
And without further ado, let's go ahead and get started.
Justin, could you tell us about yourself, your ministry, and what you got going on?
Sure, Joel.
Well, first, it's a pleasure to be with you.
See you again, and I appreciate your kind words of encouragement.
And praise the Lord for the work that you're doing and the ministry that He has entrusted to you.
So, yes, my name is Justin Peters.
I have a ministry that is very uncreatively entitled Justin Peters Ministries.
And I'm an evangelist.
I travel and preach and teach.
And that for which I am most well known is dealing with false teachers.
I have a seminar entitled Clouds Without Water.
And Clouds Without Water is a reference in the book of Jude, verse 12.
Jude refers to false teachers in a number of different ways, one of which is Clouds Without Water.
So that's the genesis there of the title.
And it deals specifically with the Word of Faith movement, the health and wealth, naming and claiming gospel, prosperity gospel, the doctrine that says it's always God's will for a Christian to be wealthy, always God's will for a Christian to be physically healed.
It's led by people such as Benny Hinn.
Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, some of those folks.
And so that has taken me all around the world, across the United States and around the world, preaching and teaching.
But it's not my only interest.
I mean, that's kind of what people tend to think of when they think of me, but I have other interests as well.
My first commitment is to exposition, expository preaching.
And so I do quite a bit of that as well.
But the Clouds Without Water is what I'm most known for.
Great.
Great.
That's how I first kind of found you and became interested in your work.
And yeah, I just appreciate your courage and preaching the truth.
So, second thing that I wanted to get to that people tend to Struggle with is just the idea of calling out false teachers by name.
So, the title of this episode for lack of creativity, as you said earlier, is Calling Out False Teachers by Name.
And I think people understand, most people in the church today, they understand that there are false teachers and false teachings.
But I think what I've encountered in my pastoral ministry as I've done some of this and following in your footsteps and calling out false teachers by name is I hear a lot of Christians say, you know, well, why don't you just address false teaching?
Without addressing the false teachers.
Or I've even had other people who would be maybe even extra sensitive.
And so they would say, well, don't even address false teaching.
Just teach true teaching.
And if you just focus on the truth, then you don't need to talk about everything that's wrong.
You don't need to always be criticizing.
They kind of have that mentality where they think you're being critical, you have a critical spirit by always calling something out.
So there's already enough people who rub the wrong way when you call something out.
There's certainly people rubbed the wrong way when you call someone out.
And so, the title of this episode is Calling Out False Teachers by Name.
And so, should false teachers be called out by name?
But further than that, because I know your answer, most of our listeners do too, why?
So, kind of three parts why should they be called out by name?
How is that good?
How is that beneficial?
Why is that necessary?
Who should do this?
Should Christians be doing this?
Should Joe Blow Christian be doing this?
Or is it reserved for pastors or evangelists?
So, who should do it?
Why should it be done?
And then, lastly, What's the proper context, or you could say where?
So, why and who and where?
Is it reserved for a conference about false teachers?
Is it reserved for a podcast, you know, or a show setting like what we're doing now?
Or what about Sunday morning, the Lord's Day in the pulpit?
What about on social media?
Those kinds of things.
So, should false teachers be called out by name?
And then, why?
Who should do it?
And where?
What's the proper context?
Okay.
All right.
So, in short, yes, we should call out false teachers.
Publicly by name.
Let's lay a little groundwork here.
You mentioned those who would say, oh, well, we should just teach the truth.
You don't have to worry about error.
Teach the truth, you know, just be positive.
You don't have to worry about the error.
Well, for one thing, pointing out error is in and of itself positive.
But Scripture actually commands us to do both to teach the truth of Scripture as well as warn people about false doctrine.
In fact, Titus chapter 1, verse 9 says, Teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.
So it's not an either or, it's a both and.
We're to do both of these things.
In fact, this would probably surprise a lot of folks.
26 of the 27 books in the New Testament directly warn about false teachers andor false teaching.
Only the book of Philemon, the short little book of Philemon, doesn't say anything about it one way or the other.
So 26 of the 27 books in the New Testament do so.
Warning about false doctrine, false teaching, and false teachers is a very prominent theme in the New Testament.
And so you'd really have to do, you would have to get to the point of being intentionally dishonest with the text of Scripture to say that we shouldn't be doing this because it is just all throughout the New Testament.
You really cannot miss it unless you're just trying to.
So, yes, it's not either or, it's both and.
So, Uh, first question is, why should we be doing it?
Correct, we well, a we must do it because we have a command from scripture to do it.
16 17, Paul says, Mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and stay away from them.
Uh, as just one example, so we're commanded from scripture to mark those who teach contrary doctrine to the gospel.
Um, and also false doctrine, false teaching.
And those two terms are synonymous, by the way, doctrine and teaching.
But they pose a real threat to people, both to unbelievers and to believers.
Paul says that he writes to Timothy and says that false teaching, idle chatter, it spreads like gangrene.
Error always begets more error.
Okay.
Error is never isolated, it is left unchecked.
Error spreads like gangrene.
It always begets more error.
And so, unless you don't engage it, and I guess to quote Barney Fife, if you don't nip it in the bud, I might be dating myself there, but if you don't nip it in the bud, it's going to spread.
Look at the United Methodist Church as an example.
Back, so gosh, 70, 80 years ago now, they began to ordain women into the ministry, but they were still on other issues.
Pretty conservative theologically, and now the United Methodist Church is ordaining homosexuals.
I mean, that they're hopelessly liberal, so uh, error always begets more error, it never just stays isolated.
So, um, so that's the why because it does pose a danger.
And now, granted, it doesn't pose any eternal danger, as in a crit to a Christian.
A genuine Christian can never lose his or her salvation, so it's not like it's going to lead them to losing salvation, but it can.
It can stunt their sanctification.
It can stunt their growth in Christ.
It can confuse them.
It can be very, what's the word I'm looking for?
It can be devastating to them, at least in a temporary sense.
I mean, eventually a genuine believer will kind of get back on the right track, but it can absolutely stunt their growth and cause a lot of confusion, unnecessarily so.
Stunting Spiritual Growth00:06:26
So that's the why.
In the what, is that correct?
What's the next question?
Yeah, who and where.
What's the proper context, AKA where, but then also who?
Who should do it?
Okay.
So, who should do it?
All of us should do it.
This is not just something for the preachers or the elders or the conference speakers.
No, this is something that we should all be doing.
Each and every one of us is in, as believers, we are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit.
Anybody watching us right now, maybe you're not in ministry, but you're a genuine Christian born again by the Holy Spirit of God.
Guess what?
You have the same Holy Spirit that I do and Joel does.
So, this is incumbent upon all of us to do.
So, it's not just for the preachers.
And where, as I just said, not just at conferences, not just in church, we are to always be ready, as the Apostle Peter says, always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us.
We're to preach the word in season and out of season.
That means always be ready to preach God's word, always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us.
So, it's not just something to Think about and talk about at a conference, an apologetics conference, or on church on Sunday mornings.
We always need to be ready to do this because all of us, I would dare say, each and every person watching us right now knows someone who, to one degree or another, has been led astray by false teachers.
They are so prominent and they dominate the airwaves, they dominate Christian television, they get the most YouTube.
Views and clicks.
In fact, Sid Roth, who is one of the looniest of the loony, I mean, honestly, I couldn't even make up something crazier than the previous guest on Sid Roth's program.
I mean, it just looney tunes, like it would make Scientology look like a documentary kind of crazy.
His channel, his YouTube channel, has 1.26 million views.
Subscribers.
And for comparison, Grace to You's YouTube channel has about 400,000 or something.
So he literally has, I mean, this guy who is absolutely loony has triple the amount of subscribers that Grace to You has.
So it's very prominent.
Very, very prominent.
False teachers are everywhere.
Yep.
I like what you said in terms of the who, that it's, It's a ministry for all believers.
It's a ministry for all the saints.
And it just got me thinking about 1 John.
It got me thinking about where the apostle writes to his readers.
And he says, I'm not writing to you because you don't have knowledge.
I'm not writing to you because you've been left out in the dark.
There's these false teachers that were kind of giving this impression, trying to lead them astray, that there was this higher echelon of spiritual knowledge, this Gnosticism, this.
In special enlightenment, and they were hijacking the biblical Old Testament word anointing and using it for their perverse purposes and saying, We're the anointed ones.
And if you listen to us, and you come and join our secret club, you can be anointed too and come into this higher gnosis, this elite knowledge.
And John says, I do not write to you because you're missing something.
I don't write to you because there's something that you don't know and I'm here to fill in the blanks.
I write to you because you do know.
Because you do have knowledge, and that because you have been past tense, every single one of you, if you're in Christ, you have been anointed by the Holy One.
And this is the same letter where John also says, Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world.
And we take that out of context a lot of times in the evangelical church.
And you see that right alongside Philippians I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me at a football game.
Greater is he who is in us.
And we can beat that football team.
It's like, well, no, it's a little deeper than that.
Uh, greater is he who is in you.
It's speaking of the Holy Spirit that you've been anointed by, and his confirming and resonating ministry with the truth, because the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, he convicts us of sin and he will guide us and remind us of all that Christ has taught us.
And so the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, resonating with the truth, is a more powerful ministry led by a more powerful person, namely the third member of the Trinity, than the devil, and particularly what's in view with he who is in the world, referencing Satan.
Is his deceptive false teachings.
And so, even that idea of greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world is speaking to the very topic that we're addressing right now.
The topic of what that means is not that just you can beat the other football team.
What it actually means is that if you're a genuine born again Christian, you cannot ultimately be deceived in an ultimate sense by false teaching because the Holy Spirit won't let it happen.
And because you do have knowledge.
And again, John, he's not just writing to a team of elders.
When he says, you do have knowledge, you have been anointed, you have the Holy Spirit, and he's strong enough within you to preserve you from deception and false teaching.
He's addressing all the saints, he's addressing all the people of God.
And so, yeah, I appreciate you saying that it's a ministry for everyone.
Now, I got to be honest, as a pastor, there have been times where I see some people maybe a little overzealous fulfilling that ministry in the chat section on Facebook.
You know, and getting in arguments, you know, that sometimes I'm like, man, I don't know if you went too far.
And even if you didn't go too far, I feel like you might just be wasting your time.
You know, there's like 174 comments between two people.
Everybody else has already checked out, like at Comet 47.
And, you know, it just keeps going.
It's like, all right, you know what?
You know what, sweetheart?
Biblical Precedent for Names00:10:26
You know, why don't you just give it a rest?
And we'll just leave that in the hands of God.
But you see that sometimes, you know, Christians, it is their ministry.
And sometimes, Sometimes they take that ministry maybe too far.
But all right.
Well, let me get to another question.
What's the biblical support?
You've already given us Titus, right?
So you're teaching what's true, you're refuting what's false.
What's some other, maybe not biblical support just in principle, but could you give us a couple of biblical examples where one of the apostolic writers called out some guys by name?
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's a great question, and I'm happy to answer that.
It happens on a number of occasions, actually.
And it goes beyond just warning about false teaching in a general sense.
The apostolic writers, the writers of scripture, called out false teachers by name publicly on a number of occasions.
Just a few of these 2 Timothy 4, verse 10, Paul writes For Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica, or Thessaloniki in the Greek.
Christians has gone to Galatiotitis to Dalmatia.
So, Paul, there, 2 Timothy 4 10, names Demas.
2 Timothy 1, verse 15, Paul says, You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.
So, he names two of them right there, 2 Timothy 1, verse 15.
Another one, 1 Timothy 1, verse 19 through 20, Paul says, Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith, among these, Are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan.
2 Timothy 2 17, this is actually a verse I alluded to a minute ago.
Paul says their talk will spread like gangrene among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus.
Peter, 2 Peter 2, verse 15.
Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness.
And then 3 John 9, John the apostle writes, I wrote something to the church, but Diotrephes, who loved to be first among them, does not accept what we say.
So there are several, right?
What was that?
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 examples.
That was a lot.
That was great.
Yeah.
There's a couple.
There's a couple in the Bible.
No, that was really great.
And I love 1 Timothy 1.
I preached through 1 Timothy about a year ago.
And 1 Timothy is a great book of the Bible for a church shrinking strategy.
If you're a pastor and you want to, you just have too many congregants and you want to narrow them down.
Kind of like a John chapter, what is it, chapter 6, right?
Where Jesus, they all leave except the disciples.
Is that right?
But yeah, we lost a few people.
But yeah.
But I like 1 Timothy 1.
So he calls him out by name at the end, like you said, Hymenes and Alexander.
But so that would be like the case study.
And then the principle, he gives it to Timothy right out the bat.
I mean, it's the very beginning of the letter.
Timothy, as far as we can tell, a young man, a young pastor, probably a bit intimidated, left in Ephesus.
And he's got to deal with men who are probably, in some cases, twice his elder, twice his age.
And he says, as I urge, verse 3, chapter 1, verse 3, as I urge you, When I went to Macedonia, remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach false doctrine or pay attention to myths and endless genealogies.
They promote empty speculation rather than God's plan, which operates by faith.
I don't know why I'm using that.
I don't like this translation, but better translation to charge certain persons, to charge certain persons.
And I remember when I was preaching that, you know, I was trying to encourage my congregation that the ministry that the apostle assigned to Timothy, so it's not just an apostolic.
Ministry.
It's not just Paul's ministry.
He's assigning this ministry to Timothy, a young pastor.
And the ministry he assigns to him is not just to teach what's true and it's not just to charge certain ideas, right?
So it's, and that's what we would like to say.
So that word charge, it's a charged word charge.
It's, you know, it's to rebuke, to confront, to challenge.
And so Timothy, as a young man, is supposed to not let anyone despise him because of his youth.
He's called to go in there with Christian confidence, no confidence in the flesh, but Confidence in Christ and the Holy One who's anointed him and dwells within him, resonating with the truth.
And he's called to go in there and sharply rebuke.
That's the word charge.
That's what sharply rebuke, not just certain ideas, not just sharply rebuke the prosperity gospel, but sharply charge certain persons, prosperity preachers.
And I remember just seeing some of the looks on the faces of my congregants and like, really?
But it was so plain in the text, there wasn't a lot of.
There wasn't a lot of pushback.
And so I think that that's something that people struggle with, charging certain persons.
And I think, well, I'll just throw it to you as a question.
Why do you think, because you've already addressed this, you know, the why, why do we need to call out false teachers by name?
But why, getting more specific, why is it distinctly beneficial for the sheep to not merely call out a false teaching, a false ideology or idea, but also to call out a false teacher?
Because To play the devil's advocate for a moment.
What if somebody was just sitting here with me and you and they push back and they say, Why don't you just do a seminar, Justin, and just give them all 10 characteristics of the prosperity gospel, which I'm sure you've done something like that probably 100 times.
Give us 10 telltale signs of the prosperity gospel and make it plain as day.
Teach a seminar, give hours of information.
Here's the prosperity gospel.
Here's the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Here's the prosperity gospel.
And line them up, compare and contrast, make it real plain, and just equip them with those tools and send them home.
Why do you have to name a prosperity preacher?
What would you say, Justin?
Yeah, well, a couple of things.
The first one I would say, kind of what we've already talked about, is that there is a biblical precedent for calling out false teachers by name.
So, that's letter A. That's exhibit one.
Yeah, that's good.
And it's sufficient.
That's enough.
Yeah, that's sufficient in and of itself.
That's sufficient.
That's enough reason.
But to add to that, I have talked to many people over the years, Joel, who, Just in general conversation, they would say, Oh, yeah, you know, the prosperity gospel, the belief that God wants us all to be wealthy and never be sick, you know, that's just not biblical.
But then you ask them, Well, who are some of your favorite preachers?
Oh, I love Joel Osteen.
That's it, Justin.
See, that's what I wanted you to say, because I know I've had that same experience.
I can only imagine you've had it 10 times as often as I have.
But that same experience where it's like, I'm like, What?
Where I'm talking to someone and I'm describing the prosperity gospel, the doctrine, without the person.
I'm charging a certain idea, but not charging a certain person.
And the person I'm talking to is just nodding their head, right there with you, brother.
Oh, my, I can't stand that health and wealth.
And then I see on their Facebook feed, like all sharing all this stuff by Kenneth Copeland.
I'm like, how?
And they're like, oh, no, he's not a prosperity preacher.
And so I think there's just this disconnect.
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think, how do people miss that?
I don't know, Joel, but I've seen it so much.
People do miss it.
They just don't connect the dots.
I would have to say they're either really ignorant of scripture or ignorant of what the teacher, the preacher, their favorite one that they've been listening to, for some reason, they just don't connect the dots.
I literally, one time, this is not an ounce of hyperbole.
A number of years ago, I was in a Lifeway Christian bookstore, and there was a lady who was looking at a copy of The Message by Eugene Peterson, which we could do a whole program on that.
That's garbage.
But anyway, and I just couldn't help myself.
And so I was on my little scooter, and I went up to her and I said, Ma'am, I know you're not asking my opinion, but I do know a little bit about this.
And I said, If you're looking for a Bible, this is not the one you want.
And so she was very nice.
She said, Oh, really?
And so I started, we started talking about that.
And listen to me.
So it, It kind of led into another conversation.
In the midst of the conversation, we got talking about various preachers.
And she said, I kid you not.
She said, My two favorite preachers are Joel Osteen and John MacArthur.
Two peas in a pot, huh?
I'm sure John MacArthur was flattered if he ever heard that, right?
I know.
It's just really.
It happens.
It makes me think.
I know there's got to be an illustration for this that I just can't think of off the top of my head, but.
It's almost like, you know, there's some old parable, and I just can't think of it, but not a parable from the Bible, but just the idea of, you know, describing, you know, how you describe something to a blind man, you know, and it feels like this and it looks like that and it's this size and, you know, all these kind of things.
And then, like, if he could see, right, you could describe an elephant, for instance, in just exact detail to a blind man.
And then let's say all of a sudden his sight was restored and he sees an elephant for the first time.
He still may not necessarily connect the dot.
There's just something about when it comes to, well, just, I think, just the act of teaching.
When it comes to the art of teaching, there's a reason why Jesus gives examples.
You know, there's a reason why the apostles give.
I think there's just something about examples.
The Art of Teaching00:05:49
I think when someone's teaching me, when I'm trying to learn something, and they just give me the general principle, I'll get a lot out of that.
But it's not until they say, and here's a general principle this tenet, this tenet, this tenet.
Da you got it.
It's like, okay, I got it.
And they're like, and here's what it looks like.
You know what I mean?
Some people are just visual learners.
They just need that.
And so I think that's part of it.
And I think also part of it, I think I keep thinking about 1 Timothy 5 when Paul's writing to Timothy in regards to disciplining an elder, you know, and those who persist in sin, rebuke them before them all so the rest might stand in fear.
And then he goes immediately on to say, do nothing from favoritism.
And it's not random.
He's not changing gears.
He's saying, I think what he's saying is because I believe, and I know you do too, and ministering with a plurality of elders in a local church.
And so he's assuming there's a plurality of elders.
And I think when you're ministering shoulder to shoulder with brothers in Christ in that kind of capacity, especially in the same local church, it assumes, I think, friendship and a good Christian brotherly love and tenderheartedness toward one another, meaning.
That I think the implication that Paul's saying is if you got to discipline a fellow elder, you're going to be tempted not to because you like him.
You like him.
He's your friend.
And so I think in the same kind of thing, like with that woman that you're describing, or the person who's like, oh, I hate that health and wealth and really like Kenneth Copeland.
I think that person, I think part of it is that sometimes they come into these convictions later on from a ministry or a local church setting, or they read a book by MacArthur or something like that.
And they come to see the faultiness, the falsehoods with the prosperity gospel or some other heresy.
But they already have this I think it's personal, I think it's relational.
They already have like this relational connection, even though they've never met the person in actual life.
Just they've been listening to so and so for so long and read so many of their books that even though they now believe that health and wealth preaching is wrong, they just can't come to terms with saying, and that's Joel Osteen.
Like, no, that's not Joel Osteen because there's this affection, there's this personal relational bond.
It's favoritism.
I think it's favoritism.
And I think that's why, because as human beings, we can easily deceive ourselves and be blinded, we can be biased.
We are prone to showing favoritism.
James talks about don't treat poor people this way and rich people that way.
And Jesus said the same thing.
That's just the way we operate in our sinfulness.
We are.
Prone towards showing favoritism, whereas there was no favoritism with God.
And we're not like Him in that capacity.
And because of our fallen nature and maybe something to our finitude, there's this propensity towards favoritism.
And I think that plays into false teachers.
And so anybody who's already developed an affinity with a false teacher, even if they come out of the false teaching, they might still not, they're just not, it's not even that they can't do it, they just won't do it.
They will not connect the dots to that person.
It's the same kind of thing where, you know, people come into Reformed theology.
And one of the hardest parts that I've noticed for people coming into Reformed theology is usually it's their high school mentor.
It's their parents.
It's people in their church back home that's not reformed.
And one of the hardest things for them is to accept these things as true, but then logically make the progression.
If this, then that, and be able to say, and these people over here doesn't mean that they're not Christians necessarily, doesn't mean that they're not good people in that relative sense, but they're wrong.
And my high school mentor taught me wrong, and my parents are wrong.
It's like a kid when he reaches 14, 15, and he beats his dad in basketball for the first time.
And it's like he's so excited, out of his mind excitement.
And then later on that night, he feels a little sad because there's something in you that, like, you never really want to beat the old man.
You did, but you didn't really.
You always want him to be beyond you, you know?
And so I think there's just like this, you know, that, you know what I mean?
It's like, oh, not Joel Osteen, you know?
Like, I read him growing up as a kid.
You know what I mean?
I think there's that relational component that people are just.
It's hard to let go of.
Would you agree with that?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I would.
And a lot of people have to do a lot of deprogramming.
And I can't tell you how many emails I've received over the years people who they feel like they have been lied to their whole life.
And above that, they grieve over how many years they spent in false doctrine.
And now they see the truth and they're embracing the truth warmly and eagerly.
But they grieve.
I've spent my whole life in this stuff.
And it's, you know, some people come out of it more quickly and more easily than others.
Some folks progress in their sanctification more quickly than others.
But for a lot of people, it's hard.
It's a hard thing for it to sink into them.
I've had this wrong for decades, maybe.
You know, years I've had this wrong.
So it's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.
It is.
Holding Tension in Doctrine00:14:01
Yeah.
To abandon.
Yeah.
Cause you just, I mean, to walk away from something that you've been building and developing and investing in for such a long time and to count it all as loss, as dung, that's a, that's hard.
Yeah.
And I think to, you know, to walk away from it and in a sense to walk away from them, I think that that's, that makes it really hard to realize I've been wasting my time with, This teaching.
And it's not just that this teaching is wrong, but it's this person, right?
Because it's not just I've been in this teaching or this doctrine.
No, like it's always, they come together, the doctrine and the community of people, right?
So if I've been steeped in the prosperity gospel, you've probably been steeped in a prosperity gospel community.
You know what I mean?
In a church like that, in a family like that, friends like that.
And so you're not just walking away from an idea.
I think that's what makes it so hard.
You're not just walking away from an idea, you're walking away from what felt like a family, you know?
And that's hard.
I know you and I both have some guys that we have personal relationships with.
They didn't decide their last name, but God, in His sovereignty, opened their eyes.
And the hardest part for those guys was not just walking away from the teaching, but it was losing relationships.
Yep.
Indeed.
Really, really hard.
All right, let me ask you this real quick, and then we'll go ahead and close out our episode.
But what about, I believe it's 1 Corinthians chapter 3.
I don't even want to.
I got my Bible here.
Okay, I'll do.
I can't.
Let me see.
This is the CSB.
I'm not a huge fan.
I don't think it's the worst translation, but the Christian Standard Bible.
Have you heard of that translation?
I heard of it, but I've not really read it any.
So I'm not familiar with it.
I prefer NASB or ESV, but this is what I got on my desk right now.
I'm not going to get up.
So I'm not that devoted.
1 Corinthians, I believe it's chapter 3.
You'll know, but it's where Paul is writing.
He's saying, He's talking about the person who builds with wood, hay, and stubble versus the person who builds with precious jewels.
And the person who builds with the wood, hay, and stubble, he says he himself will be saved, but as one escaping flames, barely by the skin of his teeth.
Now, that can't be a false teacher, can it?
I have my thoughts on it, but I'd love to hear what would you say to the person who's asking, well, Justin, what about this right here that it seems like some people in their ministry are ministering wrong, incorrectly?
Something that's ultimately going to be burned up.
It's not going to, you know, God will test it with fire on the last day.
And all their work was in vain.
It was not eternal.
It was not correct.
It was false.
It was wrong.
But they themselves were saved.
How can somebody, how can their work be false, but them be true?
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Is it 1 Corinthians 3?
Is that right?
I believe it is.
I don't, I don't, my, I've got my phone turned off.
I kept, I don't, and we just, okay, I think I found it actually in my, in my bag.
So I don't, I think it's 1 Corinthians 3 8.
Eight through, yeah, eight or 10, verse 10 says, according to God's grace that was given to me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder.
Another one builds upon it, but each one should be careful how he builds, for no one can lay another foundation.
Right?
That's like Ephesians 2 20, that the foundation is apostles and the prophets.
We don't have any more of them.
Christ is the cornerstone.
We've got evangelists and pastors, and we're framers, we're building on that foundation.
And so another is building on it, but they should be careful how they build.
No one can lay another foundation.
That's already done.
It's already been laid.
The foundation is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, and costly stones, so this is 1 Corinthians 3, verse 12.
With gold, silver, or costly stones, or with wood, hay, or straw, each one's work will become obvious.
It will be manifest.
For the day will disclose it because it will be revealed by fire.
The fire will test the quality of each one's work.
Verse 14 now, if anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
But if anyone's work is burned up, he will experience great loss.
He will suffer great loss, but he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
What are your thoughts on that text?
Yeah, well, we'll be saved, but as only by fire or through fire.
So, the kind of imagery there is.
Is yeah, you're going to make it into heaven, but your coattails are going to be smoking.
So it is a curious text, granted, but I mean, there's only two kinds of people in this world sheep and goats.
That's it.
So, anyone who makes it into heaven, they do so because they are a sheep.
But there are teachers out there, preachers, who are genuinely converted, but they either have or both, they either or both have significant error in what they teach.
They're not biblically qualified.
To teach, and there are, I mean, not every Christian is biblically qualified to be a preacher, right?
So, just because you're saved doesn't mean that you should be behind the pulpit, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Obviously, every Christian can't be a preacher, and we're not supposed to be.
So, there's that aspect of it.
There are teachers out there who have significant error, they're regenerate, but they've got some significant error, and there's a lot of preachers out there, even preachers who have.
Sound doctrine, but they do what they do for entirely the wrong motives.
Right.
And that exists as well, unfortunately.
You're right.
And it's not that any of us is completely free of pride.
We're not.
I'm not.
You're not.
None of us are.
This side of our glorification, none of us is completely free of pride.
But we've got to go to war against that pride.
We've got to put to death the deeds of the body.
And there's a lot of preachers out there who may have sound doctrine.
They may look good on paper, but they do what they do for the praise of men.
They do what they do.
You know, pride is a far bigger problem for some than it is for others.
And everything's going to be judged in the end, including our motive, why we do what we do.
So, yeah, there's going to be some people, as the imagery suggests, you get into heaven, but your coattails are going to be smoking.
Right.
So, with that, let me kind of.
Just press a little bit deeper.
So then, what do you do?
Because it seems like then we almost need a third category, not with sheep and goats.
There's only two of those, but in terms of faithful shepherd, false teacher, wolf.
And it seems like there's got to be something in between.
Because what I'm getting at is there are some brothers, and I've already shown my hand right there by using the term brothers, but I think there are some brothers that you and I would both be aware of.
With some pretty big platforms in the church today, who you look back on some of their teachings and you're like, man, that was really sound.
That was some good gospel preaching.
And I praise God for that, brethren.
There are just people who have come in droves to Christ because of their ministry, their preaching.
And then there's been a drift as of late, it seems.
And whether it's, you know, like there's, The age old kind of prosperity gospel stuff that you've done a lot of work on, but there's some new things popping up their head.
Critical race theory.
I mean, the egalitarian thing keeps coming in, feminism, but that's, you know, it has some new tactics.
You know, it has some new tricks from time to time, but it's the same old thing.
But the race issue has been a big one, critical race theory.
And I praise God for guys like Tom Askell, Jared Longshore, Vodie Bockham, John MacArthur, you know, guys who have stood up against that.
But there's some guys that like, I really used to like their ministry.
I liked them.
And man, they just hook, line, and sinker have gone woke and just drinking the Kool Aid, for lack of a better term.
But I don't feel comfortable calling them a false teacher.
You see what I'm saying?
That's what I'm asking.
Like with this third category, I think because I think they're getting in to have, you know what I mean?
I like they have a gospel message, but they're embracing this stuff that I really think that if they, if they, I think they're trying to hold two things in tension that just are diametrically opposed to one another.
And I think eventually, because I believe that they are brothers, eventually I think they're going to let this nasty stuff go and just hold on to that gospel and repent.
And I'm praying and hoping and believing that because you can't hold them both indefinitely because they're both diametrically opposed.
One's going to beat out the other.
And, um, and you know, and this woke woke gospel is another gospel, and it is in opposition to the true gospel.
It replaces repentance with penance.
You know, there is no there is now much condemnation in the woke church.
There's no forgiveness.
There's no uh, this the sin of racism is something that's the worst sin of all sins.
You know, and it's it's unbiblical, and and it's not just unbiblical or extra biblical, it's um, it is contrary to the teaching of scripture and contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And I and you and I both know guys who've they've embraced this, and they're talking about.
Their white privilege and why it's sin, and repenting of being a racist.
And I'm like, well, if and saying there still are a racist.
I'm like, well, if you still are a racist, then you should not still be an elder.
If you really believe that, then go ahead and resign from ministry.
You know what I mean?
And so we've got that whole thing going on.
But some of these guys, I really, I just don't feel, and maybe it's me.
So maybe you need to just call me to have some more courage, but I don't feel comfortable calling them false teachers, at least at this juncture.
What do you think about that?
Is that a 1 Corinthians 3 guy?
Maybe.
Very well, could be.
Yeah, particularly if they don't right the ship, if they don't abandon it.
Of course, as you said a minute ago, we would expect them to do that.
It's been very disheartening that they have not done so already.
But yeah, and I'm going to refrain from naming them because I don't, you know, no, I don't, I know, I'm sure you and I are thinking of probably a lot of the same guys.
Yeah, I can absolutely consider them to be brothers, but they have sadly and tragically been.
Enchanted for whatever reason by the social justice stuff.
And that is antithetical to the gospel on every conceivable level.
Yeah.
So, well, then let me ask this real quick.
So, we're saying, and we start off the episode saying there is a biblical precedence, not just as permissible, but there is a mandate to name, publicly name false teachers.
But you and I are both not naming some of these guys.
And so, I guess my question is with the guys that Paul named, Demas, Do you think that all the guys that Paul named, Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demas, these guys, do you think they were all, do you think they were all, were some of them the 1 Corinthians 3?
Do you think Paul, the same Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 3, and some of them will make it into heaven, but with their coattails on fire, they really are brothers and they really are personally trusting in a true gospel, but somewhere in their ministry, they got off track and were building with wood and hay and stubble.
And I think the guys that me and you were both thinking of would fit that bill.
Do you think that some of the guys that Paul listed by name were that?
Or do you think that the principle is you only publicly name the full blown bona fide Benny Hinn false teacher?
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, it does.
And my guess is, you know, in some of these that he named, we really don't know a lot of background information on them other than their names and what, you know.
Paul said, so there's not a whole lot of deep exegesis we can do on exactly who these guys were and what the background story they had was.
My guess is that some of them would have been, would have fit into the 1 Corinthians 3 paradigm, what Paul was speaking of.
Some of them are not in heaven now.
Some of them were goats that looked like sheep.
Initially, they look like sheep, but that's the rocky soil of Matthew 13, right?
You know, initially they look good, but uh, then the sun comes out, trials of life scorched them away.
There's no root there, there's no fertile soil.
You know, they look good for a while, but then they went out from us because they were not of us.
So, right, right, it's a I think there's some of both there.
Yep, okay, that's fair enough.
All right, well, let's go ahead and uh, wrap up.
So, if you're listening and you're not already one of our responders, that's what we call our club members, those are the people who We really just can't do this ministry without you.
How to Pray and Support00:03:14
The people who are praying for us, caring for us, and financially supporting this ministry so that we can put out more gospel centered, biblically faithful, courageous content like this that addresses real issues.
And I mean, we address politics, we address culture, and we address theology because at the end of the day, politics is just downstream from culture, and culture and everything else is really just downstream from theology.
What is our view of God?
Who is God and who is man in light of?
Who God is.
And so, if you're supporting this ministry, we thank you for it.
If you're not and you feel called to do so, then go ahead and become one of our responders.
And one of the benefits that you'll have is you'll have access to our bonus content.
And so, Justin, all of our guests with Theology Applied stay on for an extra five, 10 minutes and we throw out a bonus question.
I always ask the question on the end of the episode to whet your appetite and hopefully get you interested.
So, this is our question for Justin, our bonus question What are a few of the most dangerous false teachings in the church today?
Besides the prosperity gospel, because anybody who follows you, they know what you think on that.
So maybe let me make it more specific and say, Besides the prosperity gospel, what do you think is one of the most dangerous false teaching in the church today?
And who are some of the most dangerous false teachers?
And those probably, those two questions go hand in hand.
So that's our bonus question.
And if you're not a responder, we encourage you to subscribe and support this ministry.
So, Justin, would you go ahead and close us out by just telling our listeners how they can be praying for you and how they can follow your ministry?
Sure, Joel.
Yeah.
Which one do you want me to do first, that or answer the question first?
Oh, no, no.
We'll do that.
So we're going to close this out, tell us how they can follow you, and then we'll come back on and we'll do the bonus question.
I got you.
I got you.
All right.
Okay.
Yes.
Yes.
You can follow me.
You can go to my website, justinpeters.org, and all my contact information is there.
I've got a ministry Facebook page.
I have a friend who keeps that up for me.
I'm also, though, Increasingly active on YouTube, my YouTube channel, Justin Peters Ministries YouTube channel.
And the way people can be praying for me, this is going to sound like a Sunday school answer, but I honestly mean this.
Pray that not only in what I teach, but also in how I comport myself, that I would bring honor to Christ.
I never want to do anything to bring dishonor to Him.
So pray that both in the content of what I teach and how I carry myself, that I That I please Christ.
That really is my greatest desire.
So I would definitely appreciate people's prayers.
Great.
And if you're going to pray for Justin, feel free with that prayer request to throw Pastor Joel in there too, because that's a good thing to pray for me also.
So, all right, Justin, thank you so much.
And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in.
We appreciate it.
Thanks so much for listening.
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