Pastor Joel Webbin and Pastor Toby Sumter conclude their series by affirming that family, church, and civil governments were established at creation in Eden, deriving authority solely from Jesus Christ. They argue these spheres cannot assume new jurisdictions, noting historical oversteps like the Roman Catholic Leviathan or mafia-like family tyranny, while rejecting Christian libertarianism that claims civil government exists only due to the fall. Ultimately, they assert that preserving Christian liberty requires vigorously guarding distinct jurisdictions against all forms of tyranny, ensuring each government operates within its God-given limits even during crises like pandemics. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Balancing Church and State00:15:15
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All right, welcome to our final installment in this mini six part series on God and government, particularly Christian government.
I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
I've been dialoguing back and forth with Pastor Toby Sumter.
He's Recently, in the past few months, written a 50 question catechism on God and government.
This is the final installment, our sixth episode, where we offer our concluding thoughts over the whole series.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome to our final installment in this mini six part series.
We're going over Toby Sumter's 50 question catechism on And so this is the final one.
The first episode is our introduction.
The second episode is the self government.
Third episode is the family government.
Fourth episode is the church government.
Fifth episode is the civil government.
This is our sixth episode now, really with just some final conclusion questions and answers and our final thoughts.
So, Toby, let's go ahead and just go through the questions.
We're picking up with question number 45.
Will you start us off?
Yes, sir.
Question 45.
When were all these governments established by God?
They were established at creation in the Garden of Eden before sin entered the world.
The fall of man affected the way these governments function, but it did not create them.
Question number 46.
May these governments decide to take on new assignments or jurisdictions?
Answer.
No.
Because these governments derive their authority from the Lord Jesus, they cannot take on new assignments or jurisdictions without relinquishing their authority since they would be disobeying Christ.
47.
What does it mean that these governments have separate powers or spheres?
The separation of powers means that each government must only exercise its authority in the limited jurisdiction assigned to it by God.
Civil governments may not regulate how or when the church gathers for worship, or how families provide for themselves or educate their children.
Neither may parents take to themselves the authority over the sacraments, and the church may not legislate or execute criminal justice.
Question number 48.
Are there not times when one government is abusing its authority, and another government may legitimately intervene?
ANSWER.
Yes.
For example, when a crime as defined by Scripture has been committed in a family or church, civil government must intervene.
Likewise, when a family or civil government is in unrepentant sin, ministers of the church must teach, exhort, rebuke, and censure.
49.
Are there cases of overlapping jurisdictions or authority?
Yes.
There are occasional instances where there may be legitimate overlap in jurisdiction.
In those cases of overlapping authority, governments must protect their God given jurisdictions vigorously, And work through the challenges respecting other governments as equals before God.
And question number 50.
Will all of these governments last forever?
Answer.
No.
While individuals in Christ have everlasting life and the nations will bring their glory into the new Jerusalem, these governments, along with marriage and family, will be transfigured into something far more glorious.
And it is the church alone, as the bride of Christ, that will last forever.
Forever and amen.
All right, Toby, we're going to make this a shorter episode.
Just give me your big 30,000 foot view thoughts.
What are you trying to say in these final questions?
Yeah.
I guess number one from question 45, just establishing that I do believe that these governments were established in creation in sort of seed form.
Obviously, the family government is the most obvious one in the Garden of Eden.
You have a man and he's given a wife.
So I would say that's certainly at the forefront.
That's why it is the foundation of human society.
But I also believe that at the same time, we're told.
By Paul explicitly, that even in that first marriage, God was also prefiguring the church, Christ and his bride.
There was, in that first marriage, the first church community, the first gathering of human beings in the presence of God.
And then, thirdly, I think you obviously have the command to rule, take dominion of all of creation.
I think that applies both to individual human beings.
Adam and Eve were commanded by God.
To rule.
They were also to do this as a family.
But I think inevitably, as they are fruitful and they're multiplying, that would have also implied a kind of civil government, even in the unfallen world.
So I think it's important to note that just because I don't think those governments are afterthoughts.
There are some within kind of a Christian libertarian worldview that believe, and there's even sometimes they'll even call themselves Christian anarchists.
And they don't mean by that.
You know, necessarily chaos, you know, mob rule.
What they mean is they believe that civil government was only instituted because of the fall.
And as human beings are, you know, progressively sanctified, civil government should be going away, going away, going away.
And I want to argue no, I think a good bit of it was instituted because of the fall, punishment of criminals, obviously.
But I think the establishment of equal weights and measures would have been needed regardless.
That's right.
I just had an informal debate with a Lutheran minister.
We, you know, we, Went into a studio and recorded and everything like that.
But yeah, so even within Lutheran thought, you know, he was, you know, they believed that the civil magistrate, that that sphere came into play only because of sin and that came after the garden.
So they would say the church and the family, they'd agree with you on the church.
They'd say that's established in the garden pre sin.
But the civil magistrate is only to punish evil and it comes into play after sin.
And I disagreed with them.
Yeah, so I think some measure, even in a perfect world, there would have been some need for organizational.
Organization of human society, and it would have been a very tiny office.
I agree in that sense.
Like, without sin, it would have been a very, very small role.
But I think, you know, organizing how society works in the public square would have still been something needed.
What side of the road do we drive on?
Yeah, it would have been a pretty boring job, probably, but nevertheless, would have been needed.
So that's one thing I'm trying to do there.
And then the last, I think the other thing I'm primarily trying to do is just acknowledge that there are these spheres, but that they They do.
There are legitimate times when they intervene, and there are times when there is real, I would just say, overlap or just challenging issues where they have to work things out.
And I think the probably the key one that needs, I think most people understand that if obviously if there's a shooting in a church, you know, the civil magistrate needs to intervene.
There's been a crime committed.
Most people understand that and get that.
I think the overlapping one is the hardest one, probably.
And this might be something, you know.
I think we've run into that some, I think, with COVID, at least the question of it, even if it wasn't an actuality as much overlapping as we might have originally thought.
But for example, in a true bubonic plague, if we really are talking about 50% mortality rates and this kind of thing, and the bodies are piling up, I do think you have a situation where the civil magistrate does have some legitimate concern with that.
For public health.
And I also think you have family government that's still in charge of health and medical care, and church government that's still in charge of making sure people are getting to church and worshiping.
And I can imagine in a scenario like that where you really are going to have, you do have legitimate interest of all three governments, and there really is overlapping jurisdictions there.
And this is not like a silver bullet answer, but the thing that I want to insist on is even in that scenario, You don't relinquish everything to the civil government.
Yes.
You recognize that the civil government has a legitimate concern here, but you also stand there firmly and say, But I also have a legitimate concern here as the father of my family or as the pastor of my church.
And so that's why I say, even in those cases, this is question 49 the governments must protect their God given jurisdictions vigorously and work through the challenges respecting other governments as equals before God.
The family government is equal before God and stands shoulder to shoulder with the civil government, and the church government does likewise.
One example of this, or at least a potential example, I didn't do a ton of digging in it, but when the COVID stuff was first coming down, I read a little bit about the Spanish flu early part of the 20th century, which was much, much higher mortality rate and struck young people in particular very badly.
And I believe it was in Washington, D.C., where the civil magistrate asked the churches if they would close down for a few weeks.
Yeah, and wasn't it like three weeks that the churches closed down for?
Yeah, something like that.
Yeah, it was much shorter.
But the thing that I just wanted to underline is they asked.
They did not command.
They did not mandate.
They did not order.
And I think that's because at least 100 years ago, the civil magistrates of Washington, D.C. understood they didn't have the authority to command.
They had a legitimate concern for health, but they had to ask the other government in the same way that, like, you know, you don't just order around another family's kids.
You ask the parents, you know, is it okay for them to do this?
And, you know, I was thinking about requiring them to do this.
Is that okay with you?
You respect that authority of another set of parents.
So we need to return to that and guard the distinctions vigorously, guard our jurisdictions vigorously, not relinquish those things.
Easily because I think it's in that that freedom is preserved.
Christian freedom, Christian liberty is preserved as we guard the jobs that God has given us.
And it's as these other governments, particularly the church and the family, have relinquished their jurisdictions and the jobs that were given to them, the commands they were given to them by Jesus, that the state has just sucked that all up and become this overarching.
And the state is always going to be the Leviathan in this.
Equation of the three for not just because the state is uniquely evil, you know, there's plenty of evil fathers in the family and there are plenty of false churches.
And so it's, but it's the nature of the state and the tool that's been given to the state, namely the sword.
Everything the state does, it does at gunpoint.
So the state, one of the reasons fathers relinquish authority, it's sin and it's wicked.
But in order for fathers to carry out their responsibilities, they have to protect and they have to provide, which means that a father has to work, right?
In order for churches to carry out their responsibilities.
They have to persuade with the sword of the Spirit.
They actually have to persuade and cut men to the heart, cut men to the heart with preaching and sacrament in such a way that people would give to the church so that the church now has resources, but not taxes, but donations that people can use to carry out those responsibilities, ministering to the poor and these kinds of things, the widow and the orphan.
Whereas the state, the reason the state is always so likely to become, out of these three governments of home, church, and state, the one that's going to take on the most responsibility.
Is because it's easy for them to take on the most.
Now, they do it poorly, but it's easy for them to overstep their jurisdiction in terms of responsibility because they can also point the gun at people's head and say, give us the resources to do it.
So they could, like, oh, well, we'll take care of the poor, incomes, welfare, and they can just raise taxes and shoot anybody in the head who doesn't pay.
Whereas, like, I can't do that as a minister.
I can't say, hey, we want to take care of all the poor people in town.
So all of you guys need to tithe 90%.
I can't, you know what I mean?
Like, a father can't do that at home.
He can only work, he only has so many hours a week to work and those kinds of things.
So.
You know, Joel, I'm sad that it was at the very end of this series that we can finally argue about something because I'm going to disagree with you.
Okay, go ahead.
Go ahead.
For at least 500 years, the Roman Catholic Church was the Leviathan.
Right, right.
You're right.
I think it certainly is the case right now.
And I think it certainly seems to us, because of the sword, that they can wield that power.
And I think it's Played into what we've done, what's happened all around us.
But I actually think in the history of the world, we've seen examples of all three governments over extend their bounds.
Can you give me a family?
You're absolutely right about Roman Catholicism.
I can't believe I missed that as a.
I think basically what you have in various tribal countries, like African tribal countries, is family gone to seed.
Gotcha.
And it's oftentimes connected with polygamy, but you just have what tribalism is.
Is family government metastasizing and being overweening?
It's controlling everything.
And everything goes back up to the patriarch of the family.
So it is, I think.
Or the matriarch.
Sometimes I think of like Hispanic culture, a lot of times it's mama.
Sure.
Yeah.
But I think in those, when it's, I mean, in some African cultures, justice, like punitive justice, is carried out by the family.
In some tribal cultures, if great grandpa says that someone gets to be put to death, They're put to death.
And that's where all the power really resides.
I think because of the nature of it, it doesn't tend to be quite as huge as we saw with the Roman Catholic Church and what we've seen now with the modern state.
Real quick, I just thought of an example of family here in the United States, mafia.
That would be a tyranny, Leviathan, but within the sphere of the family, a mafia that could rule a whole town in the shadows.
Tribal Power and Mafia00:01:14
Okay, go ahead.
Exactly.
That's exactly right.
No, I just, you know, I think you're absolutely right that.
The state has used the sword.
I think we have relinquished that authority, and it can seem like it's so easy for them because they have guns, because they have bombs, because they have swords, and so on.
But I also want to just say I think all three governments have to remember their limits.
And it is possible for all three governments to overextend their authority.
And that's still tyranny, even when the church does it or when the family does it.
And so we want to practice biblical obedience to the Lord who gives all authority and recognize that as we guard those jurisdictions by his grace, that is the way to Christian liberty.
Amen.
Thank you so much, Pastor Toby.
I think that's a great way to end this final episode.
Thanks for having me, Joel.
I really appreciate it.
You're welcome.
Thanks so much for listening.
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