Pastor Joel and Kris Williams dissect the Black Hebrew Israelites, exposing their cult-like rejection of salvation by grace, the Trinity, and Jesus' deity. They analyze how this group mandates patrilineal bloodlines, interprets Revelation 13:10 to justify white retribution, and mirrors segregationist ideologies under a "regressive revelation" hermeneutic. Contrasting these views with Reformed covenant theology and biblical accounts from Ezra and Nehemiah, the hosts argue that God's plan includes all nations through Christ, urging listeners to share the gospel of faith over ethnic criteria to dismantle racist theological frameworks. [Automatically generated summary]
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Black Hebrew Israelite Claims00:15:15
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Thanks.
All right, welcome to another show of Theology Applied.
Today I was very privileged to have as a special guest Chris Williams.
He goes by K Dub.
He is a Christian rapper.
He's reformed.
He's 1689.
He said, for the most part, we'll take it close enough, 1689.
And he's done A lot of great work on YouTube, on his YouTube channel, doing a lot of teaching, addressing a lot of heresies, a lot of cults.
And today, what we address is the Black Hebrew Israelites, which we would both strongly agree is a cult, and a lot of people don't know much about it.
And I am one of those people.
And so, Chris helped me understand why it's significant, why it matters, and what the Word of God has to say on that topic.
So, tune in, enjoy.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome back.
This is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries, another episode of Theology Applied.
My guest is Chris Williams, K Dub.
Some of you may know him by that name.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
All right, introduce yourself.
Thanks for coming on the show.
Yeah, man.
Chris, some know me as K Dub.
I'm an apologist.
I do Christian rap as well.
I got my hands in a few baskets, you know, as far as in the culture, addressing woke stuff.
Hebrew Israelites, atheism.
I'm passionate about it all.
So, yeah.
That's great.
So, with apologetics, are you?
So, I love R.C. Sproul, big fan.
Probably one of the only things I disagree with Sproul on would be baptism and his classical apologetics, which I'm sympathetic towards.
I understand, but I would be in the presuppositional vein.
Where are you at with apologetics?
What's kind of your approach?
I'm presuppositional all the way.
Okay.
Great, man.
Good for you.
Cool.
All right.
Well, so you're using your presuppositional skills to make a defense for the faith and not just make a defense, but really in the presuppositional vein, putting the opponents on the defense.
They're the ones who the burden of proof lies on them to make a reasonable argument for their hostility and their disbelief.
But in terms of the black Hebrew Israelites, that's kind of the theme of our episode today.
What are some of the things?
I'm not really familiar with this particular.
Cult, I know enough to call it a cult because people that I trust have labeled it as such.
But what are some of the things that they deny in terms of core Christian beliefs?
Man, it's quite a bit.
They're probably one of the most heretical groups out there.
They deny salvation by Christ alone, as far as grace alone.
They believe it's law keeping, which makes a man right before God.
Many of them will.
They deny the deity of Christ, therefore, they deny the Trinity.
They deny that God is.
Now, there are variations amongst the Hebrew Israelites.
So I'm describing a particular brand, which, you know, Hebrew Israelite apologists have come to call One West Hebrew Israelites.
They say that salvation is only for Israel.
And so only Israelites can be saved.
So Gentiles cannot be saved.
And they would say, according to the Bible.
And so, yeah, obviously, just being a racist group.
So, can a white person be an Israelite?
No, white person.
So they legitimately, like on the books, they believe like white people are going to hell, period.
Yeah.
Well, so they deny hell.
So they'll say white person is going to slavery.
Oh, okay.
So, because there's a specific text in Revelation, what is it?
13 10 that says, if anyone is taken captive, captivity, if anyone is taken captive to captivity, he goes.
So since the white man, you know, took black people into captivity, he's got to get that payback, right?
And so it's a very, So, what do they think?
I'd be curious to, if I was talking with one of them, I'd say, so what do you think about black tribes that took captive other black people and sold them to the white man?
Are they going to go into captivity also?
So, this kind of gets into their eschatology.
So, the black people who never repented or did something like that will be destroyed with thermonuclear destruction.
Wow.
Yeah, I know a lot of people hear this and be like, where did they get this from?
Yeah, I don't know, but they claim the Bible.
So, yeah.
Yeah, wow.
But they, correct me if I'm wrong, but they would make a claim saying they are the true descendants of Israel.
That's correct.
Right.
Passages like Deuteronomy 28, they're very focused on that passage to show that the Israelites are black, Hispanic, and Native Americans.
And they're not just saying we're the spiritual descendants, but they're saying literally, biologically, Yeah, so biologically, they would say that.
So, what would they say about somebody like Ben Shapiro, somebody who is of Jewish descent?
Would they say that's not Israel?
Like, what do they say about just the nation of Israel?
Oh, so here's where they would go to, right?
Revelation 2 9.
It says, I know your tribulation and your poverty, but you are rich and the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but of the synagogue of Satan.
And so they're not the true Jews over there, right?
Right.
They're the synagogue of Satan.
So Martin Luther would actually agree with him on that one, but for different reasons.
A different reason, right.
For those Jews who don't profess Christ, he would say, yeah, these are synagogues of Satan.
Exactly.
Man, wow.
That is an interesting, that's a bold claim.
It's funny, you know, so I, you know, kind of being a little bit frank, it's funny because it's like racism is such a hot topic issue in our world today.
And anti Semitic rhetoric and those kinds of things, which I mean, it obviously sounds like Black Hebrew Israelites would fall into that category.
But it, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like if a group of white people were saying this about ethnic Jews, we'd hear it on the news for weeks and weeks and weeks.
Do you think, do they, I'll just frankly ask my question, do they get away with some of the racial language because they're Black?
What do you think?
I do think they get away with a lot of racial.
Epitaphs they use.
I mean, like you said, if anyone was, if any person of white, you know, kind of on that borderline was screaming the things they were saying, oh, yeah, it would be front page news and they would be, you know, warned against and probably in jail for a lot of things they say.
But yeah, they do get a lot of weight with a lot of stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, okay.
So I don't remember the guy's name, but just recently, and this is a story that the legacy media has quickly buried.
I think it was in the news for a day, you know, and barely.
And then quickly was suppressed.
And then other conservative outlets have picked it up and done it some service.
But I can't remember the guy's name.
But he was basically made an attempt.
And it's still alleged, it hasn't been completely proven yet.
He's going to have to go to court and be tried and all those kind of things.
And God bless that.
He deserves his day in court.
But basically, it was a murder attempt on a Democrat, I believe, a Democrat nominee for mayor, somebody who was running to be mayor, but a Democrat.
And he basically attempted to murder them, allegedly.
That's the story.
But it was a young black man.
And from some of the conservative news cycles that I found, he's not a black Hebrew Israelite, but he was a part of something, some Judah or the lion's.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Have you heard of this group?
They're similar.
Yeah.
Den of Light.
There's so many camps and sects.
Yeah.
And then there's like so many variations.
It wouldn't surprise me because there have been stories where Black Hebrew Israelites, people who are involved in the camps, and by the way, they don't like that term.
They say it's redundant, right?
Black Hebrew Israelite.
Oh, yeah.
You know, so they don't like that term, but that's what they were called in the early 90s, even by.
But, anyways, there have been stories of Black Hebrew Israelites that have murdered people, and there's been some.
I mean, you know, talk about the women involved and like the husband has murdered the wife or done something crazy.
There are some pretty vicious stories.
Right.
Well, what was interesting about this story, and I wish I had researched it a little bit more before we started recording, but what was interesting was basically that the Democrat nominee whose life was in jeopardy, that he was attempting to murder, was a Jew.
And so that's why I bring it up was to say that it seems like this guy, you know, they, it's funny that, you know, they're like, well, we don't know.
What ideology he had, but just the recent weeks of his social media posts were all very much praising and glorifying this very similar group to the Black Hebrew Israelites.
And it's like, yeah, it's like Tribe of Lions or Lion Tribe or something like that.
Judah's Lion, something like that.
But, anyways, so very similar ideology, very similar beliefs to the Black Hebrew Israelites.
And then he makes an assassination attempt on a Jew.
You know, yeah, they really hate the Jews.
That's what it seems like.
They hate Asians, and this may surprise you.
They hate Africans, really.
Why do they hate Africans?
You ask, I'm glad because those are the ones that are getting confused with the true Israelites, right?
Like, we're not if you it's amazing.
You'll be on there'll be like a there's been videos of this like on YouTube of like an African coming up.
They found out the guy's an African, and they're like just as racist to him as a white person, right?
Because you know, we're not African ascent, we come from the most highs.
You know, bloodline.
We're not no dirty African.
They'll say things like that, which is, man, just very racist in and of itself.
That's pretty bad.
Okay.
So, thinking theologically for a moment, black Hebrew Israelites, would they be in like a dispensational kind of vein?
So, when I think of dispensationalism, I think of two tracks, right?
That ethnic Israel, national Israel is still in full effect today.
God still has a covenant with Israel.
There are certain land.
Promises, physical promises that are still yet to be fulfilled and will be fulfilled for Israel.
Now, that's not my disposition.
That's not where I'm at.
I would hold to a 1689 federalism, a Reformed Baptist covenantalism.
So I'm going to look and I'm going to say that the church is true Israel, right?
And I think it's interesting because the black Hebrew Israelites are saying, well, we're true Israel, but they're not saying, like we already discussed, they're not saying black people have replaced Israel.
They're saying, no, no, no, we always were Israel.
And these guys are imposters.
Ethnic Israel, Ben Shapiro, you know, these guys are imposters.
They pretend like we can trace our bloodline.
We're not saying this is a spiritual inheritance, but literally, we are biologically Israel, always were.
So, where, like, would they be covenantal or would they be dispensational?
Because the dispensational person is going to say nobody's replaced Israel.
There's Israel, and then the church has come alongside Israel.
And so there's promises to the church, and there are promises to Israel, spiritual promises to the church.
Physical promises to Israel, and all those of ethnic Israel are welcome through faith to join the church and receive those spiritual promises in addition to these land promises.
But basically, it's this parenthesis that all of a sudden we're in this pause moment in the last days.
But Jesus is going to come back and he's going to inaugurate his millennial kingdom here on earth, and he's literally going to rule from the throne of David.
And Israel, ethnic Israel, is going to inherit certain physical promises.
Whereas I would say, no, the church has replaced Israel.
Replacement theology, just for the record, is really a derogatory term that dispensationalists came up with.
I would look at it more as fulfillment theology or it's really just covenant theology.
But that Israel is kind of like the scaffolding that was working alongside building a temple as unto the Lord.
And like Ephesians chapter 4, a living temple built with living stones.
And Israel, God used Israel, this Jewish.
Root, this Jewish foundation to build the temple, the foundation being the apostles and prophets and Christ himself being the cornerstone.
And when the work was finished in the life and death and resurrection of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, all of ethnic Israel was invited to come and join the church, to come inside.
Let's take down the scaffolding.
We don't need it anymore.
But I look at the dispensationalists as saying, no, these are two buildings.
The scaffolding is actually its own building.
And then there's the temple.
And I would say, no, no, no, no, it's just the temple.
That's just scaffolding.
They're like, no, that's the Eiffel Tower.
That's, you know, that's a beautiful monument.
And it's like, no, that's just poles and boards and wood.
That was literally just the scaffolding.
And so, anyway, so I'm saying replaced, and the word I would use is fulfilled, that Israel was fulfilled in the church, in the church.
But for the black Hebrew Israelite, it sounds like they're like, well, they're not dispensationalists, but it sounds like they're like all the very worst parts about dispensation.
Like they would say that.
There are still physical land promises, and national Israel is still a thing and still in covenant with the Lord.
And nobody, there is no second.
So, dispensationalists, two buildings.
Covenant theology, it was all into one building.
And for them, it would be one building, but it's still Israel and everybody else's in charge.
Yeah, just think like dispensationalism, like hyperized, because it's only, like you said, there is no church concept in the Black Hebrew Israelites.
It's only Israelites, at least to those who, because there are some Hebrew Israelites who have a, Hierarchy, so they'll say, Well, no, Gentiles can be saved, but they got to come under an Israelite.
So, for those, it would be a more kind of dispensational, but for the most part, it's a hyper dispensationalized.
Regressive Revelation Explained00:05:41
Yeah, they want to see, uh, you know, those land promises, the temple promises all being literalized.
And it's and and what you'll really find when you have conversations with them, they have no idea, they don't like the concept of apostolic interpretation.
So, right, Paul uses a text, he kind of has this apostolic interpretation of that passage, they'll say, No.
We cannot go with that view.
We got to go back to the Old Testament, right, and see that.
So it's the Old Testament is the lens of what you are to see all these things, you know, carried out.
So no kind of progressive revelation.
Gotcha.
So that's what you're going to get when dealing with Black Hebrew Israelites.
So they're saying the Rev. Yeah, that's the opposite of what we would say, because we would say, you know, start with the New Testament.
That's, you know, shedding light on the Old Testament.
They're not pitted against one another.
There's a perfect, you know, unity to the Old and the New Testament.
But I can't remember what theologian it was, but he said the Old Testament is like a richly furnished room, but the lighting is dim.
And Christ, especially in the apostolic writings, is the light that, you know, reveals the richness of this.
And so we would look at the New Testament in order to understand more fully the promises and the messianic prophecies in the old.
But it sounds like, you know, like you said, progressive revelation.
But for them, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like they think that the revelation was clearest in the beginning and has gotten muddier along the way.
In some sense, yeah, that's fundamentally what they would argue.
Well, what do they do for worship?
Are there black Hebrew Israelite churches?
Do they gather together for worship?
So they call them camps.
That's like their version of denominations, right?
And there's not much.
Whenever I see a service of the Black Hebrew Israelites, the worship aspect is not there.
It's a lot of teaching, a lot of Bible memory stuff.
But as far as worship, rarely done, especially in the One West variety of camps.
And so, yeah, that's the sad part.
Do they gather on Sundays or?
No, no, that's right.
That's the uh, they're Sabbatarians.
Uh, so Friday or go ahead, Friday or Saturday, got you like Friday evening.
Yeah, so it'd be Friday evening or Saturday during the day.
So kind of like a like a Seventh day Adventist, correct?
Which for the record, I would be a Sabbatarian and any Westminster 1689 is, but we would say that Christ, who is Lord of the Sabbath, did not remove the Sabbath, but rather renewed the Sabbath by virtue of his resurrection from the last day of the week to the first.
Um, but they would.
Again, that makes sense with them not believing in progressive revelation, but it sounds like they believe in regressive revelation.
It gets dimmer as you go forward.
They will want an old covenant view of the Sabbath.
Yeah, rather than go back to Saturday, last day of the week.
Okay.
So is this a large cult?
Are there a lot of black Hebrew Israelites?
Yes.
Really?
So it's kind of very hard to determine their numbers because they don't do anything like church membership where they pin down how many people are at their church.
So at best, we have to conclude.
And I would say.
And this is me lowballing.
I would say just, and this is based off like, you know, YouTube numbers, YouTube, like, you know, so at me lowballing, I would probably say in America alone, it's at least 1 million Black Hebrew Israelites.
Wow.
And that's just in America because there are some that are there in places like UK, Ghana, even Africa, some Black Hebrew Israelites are rising, even Canada.
Outside of the states.
Wow.
So they're like the same size as the SBC.
The SBC says that they have 15 million, but only 1 million show up on Sundays.
Israelites and SBC, same size.
Wow.
That's funny.
You do have like some, you know, Israelites, quote unquote, that, you know, they just watch the YouTube videos, but they don't do anything.
They don't really can't.
They don't do anything.
Or they're in jail, you know, or something like that.
Yeah.
So does it tend, you know, with you, you know, I know you were saying it kind of, you know, tongue in cheek, but does it tend to be a A violent group?
Oh, yes.
There's plenty of videos of them starting fights, punching people out just right at camp, and they'll praise God for it right there.
Um, you know, they have a phrase when, like, whenever something humiliating happens to a white man, they'll say, and what that means is, rise, Israel, right?
Um, they're saying, like, pretty much, praise God for this.
And there's videos of people getting punched out on the street.
I've been on the streets where they've gotten aggressive, right?
I've never been assaulted out there, but you can tell if they thought they would get away with it, they probably would, you know.
And so, plenty of videos like that online.
Wow.
Um, so a little bit earlier, going back about seven, eight minutes or so, you said.
That a white person, you said for earlier that like there was no hope, you're gonna, you're not gonna go to hell, but you're gonna go to captivity, and you cited Revelation.
Um, but but then you said that like a white person could come under one of them.
Um, can you explain that a little bit?
Yes, yes.
So, so it depends on the camp.
So, there are some camps who say no, a white person can't come under, but there are some camps who will say no, Israel, and they'll actually have a more biblical, it's still sub biblical, but it's more biblical than the Israelite only camps because they'll say, look, no, the stranger was a.
Grafted Into Jewish Roots00:09:32
Allowed even in the old covenant to come under, and so they'll so even then you see a problem with the old covenant actually their view of like being grafted in under the right.
So a Gentile, the only way they could be under this if they actually did come under, um, and there was a kind of hierarchy in that sense.
And but they'll strictly have that, they don't have a new new covenant view of salvation in large, uh, you know, Galatians 3 28, things like that.
They all of them will deny, so that's where they do stand in unison is Israel is greater in that sense.
Gotcha.
So, I mean, for us as covenantal and new covenant, New Testament Christians, we would say, we would not be arrogant.
So, I think of like Romans 11, where it says, but you do not be presumptuous.
Don't be arrogant.
If God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you.
And so, Israel was cut off a partial hardening for a time so that you, the Gentiles, might be grafted in a wild olive shoot being grafted in.
But grafted into what?
It's grafted into this Jewish root.
And he says, Don't be arrogant.
It is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
So, Gentiles, I believe that, you know, Orthodox, covenantal, New Testament Christian Gentiles, we acknowledge that, yeah, this is something that God built.
It was always his intent.
So we believe God is the same yesterday, you know, today, and forevermore.
Behold, I am the Lord, I change it not.
So I don't think that God repented.
I know that there are texts that use that, like Genesis 6, but not in the way.
That we repent, we use the clearer verses in scripture to understand the ones that are more obscure.
And the Bible says, God is not a man that he should change his mind.
So it was always God's plan.
We believe that there was a covenant even before the foundations of the world were laid, what we would call the covenant of redemption between the Father and the Son by the Holy Spirit to give him a people for himself to be his bride that he would purify by his blood, that they would be pure and spotless and presented back to the Father in splendor and glory.
And so the church has always been God's plan.
And as we saw that.
The seed of Abraham, through this seed, all the nations would be saved, would be blessed.
And so we know this was always God's plan, and yet it still is significant to say, yeah, it was always God's plan to save from among every tribe, tongue, and language, but he did it through Israel.
He did it through Israel.
So don't get arrogant, right?
So it's always been about the nations, not just Israel.
That's always been his plan.
And yet, we should not be arrogant.
It is the root that supports you and not.
And eventually, I believe that Israel will be grafted back in.
And Paul says, like, if their cutting off meant your salvation, then what will their rejoining be, you know, grafted back in, but life from the dead?
That it'll be even better.
That Israel coming back won't be bad for the Gentiles, but it'll be even better for Israel and Gentiles alike.
So, all that being said, you know, this Jewish route, yes, we want to honor what God has done through the prophets, through our spiritual fathers, the patriarch of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all these things.
So, there is a sense in which Gentiles, we are receiving a Jewish salvation by virtue of our faith in Christ.
But the idea of coming under, you know, for us, it's all doctrinally, it's clearly articulated.
How do we gain entrance?
How do we come in?
Well, we come in by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, because Christ is the ultimate seed of the woman.
Christ is the most Jewish Jew who ever lived.
He is the seed of Abraham.
He is the promised son.
And through faith in him, we're Israel.
I am true Israel.
But with black Hebrew Israelites, I'm wondering what is the process?
How does somebody come in?
Is it just through faith?
Because for us, it's through faith.
It's by grace alone, through faith alone.
And then we would say, yeah, and to be a part of the church, there are some core Christian doctrines you have to believe.
You know, if a white person wanted to come into a particular camp that allowed for that within the black Hebrew Israelite tribe, would they have to pay penance?
Would they have to, you know, like what would that look like?
This is actually a good question, maybe more so than you even know, because how does one become an Israelite, right?
Well, fundamentally, it's through the bloodline.
Um, and they will say that's through your father.
So, if so, oftentimes they'll be preaching out in the street and someone will come up, okay, I want to be a part.
Well, who's your father?
What was he a so called black man?
They'll say that, so called, right?
Because they don't believe he really was a so called black man.
And so if your father is an Israelite, so called black man, then you can be one.
But let's say you have a person who's mixed, right?
There it's a young lady comes up, wants to be apart, but her father was a white man, so called white man.
Then that person, even though their mother was black, that person would not be allowed to be an Israelite, fundamentally, for those who say Israelite only.
Now, for those who say Israelites, Uh, or Gentiles can come under like the sojourner, yeah, yeah, they would just have a more subordinate view, they cannot be a teacher, they just kind of are the ones that they can kind of be around that they can't, but they will not be allowed to teach an Israelite, gotcha.
All right, well, what are some other thoughts that you might have?
What is you know, I've been asking questions, but I again, this is novel to me, and I'm not well studying on this particular uh cult.
What are some things that as you've done videos, I know that you've done a lot of teaching on this and engaged with different people.
What are some of the common themes or concepts that arise?
A common thing that arises, but man, it's quite a few because all of them try to say, oh, we're not hateful like them.
But as the more you talk, it's like, wow, yeah, you are.
Since we were just describing how you're an Israelite by your father, this is actually fundamental to why they deny the virgin birth.
Because, or yeah, they deny the virgin birth because Jesus had to have a physical father to be an Israelite, right?
And so they deny the virgin birth.
This might be just interesting, uh, to because someone may be like, okay, but how do they get up?
How do they get that the white man is not an Israelite and they are?
They'll, well, they'll, uh, say, uh, Esau is described in the Bible as being ruddy, and they'll say ruddy means red, and who does that fit?
The white man, right?
He's that matter of fact, he could be called the red man, but David was also described as being ruddy, so they'll, that is very true, and this is where they're not very consistent because they'll, you'll, you'll bring that up and they'll say, well.
Ruddy means beautiful, right there, not not actually red.
So so they're very inconsistent, gotcha.
So Esau is the is the prototypical white man right, he is the.
Uh the, the.
That's why they may call you ever make, you may hear them saying, Edamite is the is the white man yeah, and so so right.
And what does the bible say about uh, Esau?
God hates Esau.
So God is actually the racist.
He hates white people.
That's, that's their, obviously.
I don't believe that.
Right, that's their hermeneutic and That's what they'll teach.
So that's interesting.
I get that.
I obviously think it's ridiculous, but I understand the ridiculousness of it.
But it's just interesting that, you know, because Jacob and Esau shared the same father.
And it sounds like that's such a big emphasis who's your dad?
Right.
You know, so.
You would think, yeah, they're not real consistent on, like, wait, I thought you are who you are by your father.
Well, then that would make Esau an Israelite.
Right.
There's so many different answers to this dilemma.
Like you're actually bringing up one dilemma to that.
Well, so that raises another question for me.
What do they think about people who they would acknowledge this person is of black Hebrew Israelite descent?
This is a true descendant, but the person is not, they're not, they don't believe the doctrine.
They're not a part of their group.
What happens to those people?
Is it all just blood?
Or do you have to be of a particular line, lineage, but also professing certain doctrine?
Yeah, so it would be blood and belief.
But so, like, someone like me, right?
They would call me a Jake.
They'll say, You're not Jacob yet, right?
You're just a Jake.
So, you haven't woke up yet to who you are.
And so, yeah, so if from their position, right, if I don't repent and return to my true heritage, I'll be cut off, right?
They'll go to this passage in Revelation that talks about two thirds of be cut off.
And they'll say, Some of that will be our own people who will be cut off from the nation and they'll Receive destruction as well.
Interesting.
So, here's another question I have.
Ethnic Exploitation Debunked00:03:08
When all the Black Lives Matter stuff was going down and the whole world, you know, because woke, I was a part of Acts 29 when Eric Mason wrote Woke Church and Ligon Duncan, you know, and Eric Mason was on the board with Matt Chandler.
And I left in 2018 because of, well, a few things, but that was one of the biggest things just seeing the network and the direction it was heading with critical race theory and these kinds of things and just.
You know, diversity councils, and even on the board, it's like we have to have the right percentage of skin pigment, not diversity of thought, we don't want that, but you know, diversity of skin, and you know, all these kinds of things.
I remember they had Thabidi Anabuile and they had Eric Mason.
Thabidi wasn't a part of actually, and I, but he was a guest speaker at a conference, and Leonce Crump and Brandon Washington, and all these guys.
Chandler was kind of hosting a panel with these guys, and they, you know, were just completely hook, line, and sinker all of the critical race theory rhetoric.
Leonce, even, you know, he didn't use the phrase because it wasn't.
Popularized yet at that time, but was exactly articulating this idea of ethnic exploitation.
Because Chandler asked, All right, well, how do we solve the problem?
You guys have all been oppressed and we want to make it right.
You know, what do we do?
And are there some good books we could read?
And, you know, and Leon Scrump, his response was, Well, see, that right there is that's what we call the numinous Negro, right?
Like the Green Mile.
There's always some magical, you know, black man that the white people expect to fix all their problems, you know?
And like, you get on Google, you find a book.
And I was like, Man, like, and I realized now, like, what he was saying was, because the first part of the panel was, You know, there's a problem, you need to recognize your privilege.
You need to do your anti racist homework.
You are racist by virtue of your skin, by being a part of the dominant hegemony.
You are racist, unless there's no such thing as not being racist.
You can only be racist or anti racist.
To be anti racist, you're someone who is identifying racism in yourself and in the hegemony and calling it out and speaking truth to power.
And to do that, you need to be informed.
But to be informed, you have like grayscale lenses, right?
You can't see reds and blues and purples and violets.
Like you.
Because of privilege by being white, there's just certain things that you can't see.
So, you need a person of color to help you.
And so, that's basically the panel.
That's the way that we had gone.
And they weren't using all the same language of like Kimberly Crenshaw and all this kind of stuff, Robin D'Angelo, you know.
But that's exactly what it was.
And so, then Chandler was basically just saying, okay, like, so we need people of color to help us to see our own privilege so that we can identify our racism in ourselves and in the larger dominant group that we belong to so that we can be advocates, you know.
Allies for our minority brothers and sisters.
So, where are some good lenses?
Where can I find some good glasses, some good books written by people of color that can call attention to some of these things, help me see it?
And then, even then, the response is, well, basically, what Leon says, numinous Negro.
But what he's basically saying is, well, that's ethnic exploitation.
The Irony of BLM00:08:22
So, it's this no win scenario, right?
So, it's like you're a racist because you're not helping.
But to be not racist, you got to be anti racist.
You got to help, but you can't help.
Because you can't see, so you got to partner with someone who can see.
But if you partner with someone who can see, aka the only people who can see, people of color, then you're just using them to posture yourself as a good white.
So that's ethnic exploitation.
So you're racist, and if you try to do what we say, you'll still always be racist.
So all that, you know, I was a part of that.
Acts 29, all this kind of stuff is happening.
I leave the movement, I'm just starting to get just, I believe, righteously angry about what I see as very, very divisive.
It wasn't uniting anybody, it was just completely dividing churches, denominations, all this kind of stuff.
So, my question back to the Black Hebrew Israelites is throughout the midst of Black Lives Matter and the protests and George Floyd and all this kind of stuff, I can guess, but I'd like to hear from you.
Were they eating that up?
Did they love it?
Or were they like, no, no, no, no, we actually don't support this?
Where would the Black Hebrew Israelite be with BLM, things like that?
So, I think it more so benefited the Black Hebrew Israelites more so than the Black Hebrew Israelites like supporting BLM.
Ultimately, they'd be like, well, BLM is just.
Apostate, right?
And just crazy.
Like they will say some, sometimes they'll say some things like, yeah, I actually agree with what you're saying right there.
You know, so I mean, broken clock, right?
Right.
So, you know, so, but a lot of the, you know, stuff you're talking about right now about just like, you know, racism is everywhere.
Some of that stuff I first heard from the Black Hebrew Israelites, right?
And for me, it was wild to hear a lot of stuff that I'm like, you know, you hear Acts 29 saying comfortably now.
I was like, man, the Black Hebrew Israelites saying the same thing.
You know, it's like for me, I thought I was, I don't, I'm like, man, did I fall asleep and just wake up 30 years later and Black Hebrews like to take over?
That, for me, that's how it all, all began, you know?
And so, but no, they would not be with BLM, but they'll say similar things, right?
That the cops are racist, slave patrol, stuff like that, right?
Matter of fact, one of their constant complaints, because a lot of them grew up in Christian circles, right?
Ex Christians, right?
You know what I mean by that?
Not really theologically, but, you know, they, they, they left the church and one, one of their, some of their biggest clank uh, you know complaints, is that it was too white um, you know, and things like that, and so pretty, pretty much you know what a lot of woke people are saying, and so I, I just think that's ironic.
You know, it is ironic, it's funny man, i've seen, i've seen some videos where guys who you know they'll like, take like somebody who's you know, and it's a sketch, it's not, it's not real.
But like you know like uh, some swastika flying, you know Nazi, white supremacist, you know is a character, and then like some uber woke, you know black lives matter, guy and uh, and and and find all the the things that they agree on.
They're like well, schools should be segregated.
It's like I agree right, and it's just, it's just funny how you know like, like extreme, you know extreme progressive, you know political views how how, in the name of of defeating racism, you know how, how racist you know they've turned out to be, and so it, it doesn't surprise me at all that you know that like uh, sometimes it's like you find somebody that you never thought you would agree with And it's like, yeah, we're saying the same thing on this one point,
but on this one point, we're teamed up.
Yeah, they're heavily segregationist, and they think that would solve a lot of issues.
Obviously, they hate interracial marriage.
Oh, yeah, I bet.
Things like that, right?
Even though you go to the Bible and you're like, wait a minute, Moses had a wife from another nation.
And the best answer I've, sometimes you hear some funny answers, you just like, You just got to keep them in your pocket forever.
It's like, well, that was a special moment.
Someone said that to me once.
I thought that was pretty hilarious.
Yeah.
So, yeah, no, I could see that.
And it's funny.
Nobody would actually come out on record and say it.
But I remember thinking some of these woke guys, even in evangelicalism, I know for a fact if I could sit them down, strap them to a chair, give them some true serum and hear what they really thought, I don't think that they would be a fan of interracial marriage.
Because it's all about your identity coming from your ethnicity.
And you don't want to water that down.
You don't want to lose that.
You don't want to mix that.
And so, yeah, which is the sad part is back when they weren't racist, a lot of those guys are in interracial marriages.
It wasn't an issue back when they weren't racist.
You know what I mean?
But now that they've actually become racist, right, in the biblical sense, it's an issue.
You know, and it's like, man, I don't know how they sleep at night.
You know, like, I bet they really struggle and are probably in some depression going through all that.
I completely agree.
And that's, you know, like, when I think of like Revelation, you know, I think it's chapter five and multiple places throughout the scripture that, you know, the nations will be Christ's inheritance and God is saving from among every tribe, tongue, and nation.
We, in our specific moment in history that we live in and the things that have become so popularized and so dominant, these certain ideologies, we immediately think of ethnicity when we think every tribe, tongue, and nation.
But the reality is that nations like ethnos, we can get the word ethnicity from it, but nations are groups of people.
And often nations have the same skin pigment as another nation, but what makes them a sovereign nation is not what they look like.
It's not their physical appearance or their skin color.
It's their ideologies, it's their faith, it's their polity and forms of government, it's their traditions, their culture.
There's all these other things that make A group of people distinct from other groups of people.
And I just feel like ethnicity is so low on the scale when it comes to diversity because God is a God who loves diversity.
But when I think of diversity, you just hear that word diversity immediately.
You think race or LGBT, LMNOP, you know, it's either, you know, sexual something or ethnicity something.
But it's like diversity is so, so much more than that.
There are, I mean, in Africa, there are multiple different nations where people look very similar, similar skin paint.
Europe, multiple different nations, right?
It's like, well, you're white.
Well, no, technically I'm Scottish, or no, I'm actually Irish, or I'm like, no, you're white.
It's like, well, it's like, but the, but the, yeah, I may be white, but, but there are some rich cultures and traditions and things depending on which nation I'm a part of.
And we've just so truncated diversity in the nations, every tribe and tongue.
And I mean, even that tongue, languages, there are different languages with people who may have the same skin pigment, but, but speak in a whole nother way.
And so, But we've just boiled it all down to this issue of race.
That's a good point, man.
And it's why I hate the term.
I mean, I use it just for cultural relevancy, but I hate the term black and white because it actually doesn't tell me anything about you other than your skin color, right?
I remember when I met a guy, a black guy, he was from France.
And for the longest time, I thought he was, I mean, he had the accent like one and everything, but he was black.
And I was like, no way.
It was really just showing my cultural ignorance about, like you said, like, man, you can be.
You can be black and speak a totally other language and be totally different from me because of where you lived and grew up.
But we reduce people just to skin color.
It really just shows how fascinated we are with people's skin these days.
It's really sad.
Yeah, no, it's become idolatry.
It's absolutely become idolatry.
This is a random thought I've never shared on any of our shows before, but I'll share it with you.
So, in terms of, you know, like inner, you know, we're talking about interracial marriage.
Beyond Skin Color Bias00:02:50
Taking that back to dispensationalism, which I would deny, I would not be in that camp theologically, but I do wonder if there really are two separate tracks there's the church and there's Israel, ethnic Israel.
I sometimes wonder, you know, like a Native American, you know, like you can do certain tests and you have to prove descent, you have to prove your heritage, right?
And if you're at least, like, I think, like a minimum of 116th Cherokee, you know, Cherokee Indian, then Then there are certain scholarships and certain privileges and things like that that might be available to you.
But you have to actually prove.
My point is if you intermarry for too many generations and the blood gets mixed too much, then it's like, all right, well, we're all 100th Cherokee by this point because we've all, generations go by.
That's eventually what happens.
So I have wondered for our dispensational brothers and sisters, I wonder what percentage.
Of Israelite blood, will they have to be to inherit the spiritual promises of the Old Testament?
Yeah, you know what I mean?
And if Jesus, I mean, it makes sense that if you're dispensational, you would be premillennial because Jesus better show up soon.
It's already been 2,000 years.
Interracial marriage, if that continues much longer and Jesus doesn't show up soon, then there's not going to be any ethnic Israel left.
We're all going to be, you know, one 1,000th.
Just even practically, biologically, when I, it just, some of these things, including dispensationalism, I'm certainly not going to put it in the same camp as, you know, black Hebrew Israelites, but all those things that just emphasize so much.
race, ethnicity.
I mean, when you practically think about it and the way it plays out, it doesn't go anywhere good.
Because if you emphasize ethnicity, if you emphasize white skin, black skin, or Hebrew skin, you know, and you think that there is a spiritual dynamic that is contingent on skin, then the natural, whether you ever say it, articulate it or not, the natural thought process is that that skin, that blood needs to be preserved.
And so you have to turn inward rather than outward and embracing people from every tribe, tongue, and nation.
And, you know, I've got three girls, and if one of them, you know, brings some Hispanic guy home one day when she's older and the guy loves the Lord, then I want to say, praise God, marry my daughter, you know, or black guy, praise God, marry my daughter.
But I feel like if race is such a big thing, you can't say that.
And you may never come out against it verbally, but with your daughter, though, privately in your home, you probably are teaching your kids, no, hey, we don't bring.
People home.
Jesus and the Hebraic Jew00:08:55
Right.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's just racism.
My point is, if race is a big deal, racism is the necessary wall of defense to preserve the big deal of race.
You can't continue to emphasize race multiple generations from now without dividing walls of hostility to protect the purity of the race.
And I feel like even with Israel, ethnic Israel, I mean, again, like if ethnic Israel is coming into salvation or even a Apart from salvation, if they just are coming into the first world, which they are, you know, and they're traveling and intermarriage and all those kind of things, then at a certain point, it's like, who is Israel?
You know?
And that was part of the problem.
Vodi Bakum had some good stuff on this back in the day, just saying that, like, all right, like, I, you know, I am for Israel's right to defend itself.
You know, the Iron Dome and all these, amen.
I completely support that.
Israel has a right to not be wiped off the face of the planet by Hamas.
I think that's insane.
You know, like, People like AOC, you know, like, oh, I wish Israel couldn't defend itself, you know, and like, no, they have, now that they're there, they have a right to defend themselves.
But Vodi said, like, but should they have been there in the first place?
Is there some, is there really a divine claim to land?
Does anybody have a divine claim to land, you know?
And he was bringing, you know, bringing those kinds of things up.
And then even that, I think of like, and who has this divine claim?
Like, what is the proof?
I think it's either Nehemiah.
Or maybe it's Ezra, but where they're going to go back, I think it's Cyrus who supports the king of Persia and gives provisions to send a group of Israelites back to their native land in order to restore Jerusalem and the temple.
But one of the things that when they find the book of the law and they realize, oh my gosh, we've been living like apostates and we need to turn back to the Lord with prayer and fasting and observe these prescriptions of worship and the feast of booze and all these different things.
But another thing is they realize, We've all intermarried.
And they actually send the wives and children that were not of Jewish descent away.
And there are other people who come that remained back in the land who want to help with the project of rebuilding the temple and they ask to see their papers.
Like, are you actually, how Jewish are you?
Are you Jewish?
Like, are you actually Israel?
And so I just, I'm thinking that's the biblical standard for ethnic Israel, the nation of Israel in the Old Testament as they're rebuilding Israel.
Wouldn't that be the same standard if you are a dispensationalist for rebuilding Israel and fulfilling these land promises?
Wouldn't you have to, and will they be able to do that?
2000 years from now, be able to show those papers and proof.
And yeah, I feel like there's some practical problems.
Yeah, I just deal with the dilemmas.
Yeah, I so I just feel like people don't think about that.
They don't, and again, all of it stems from making ethnicity the most important thing in the world.
And it's just, yeah, it's just not let me let me let me bring this up because someone you know may hear this conversation and be like, well, just in regards to the Hebrew Israelites, and be like, there's so many texts that talk about.
Gentiles being saved, like right, you think of Romans 1 16 to the Jew first to the Greek.
Um, you know, so many texts that speak about uh Gentiles being able to be saved.
And so, someone asked, like, what how do they deal with that?
Um, so any text you'll go to that says a Gentile can be saved, here's fundamentally what they're going to do they're going to say it's actually an Israelite in a Gentile state of mind.
So, Gentile actually they'll say can mean um an Israelite.
Who's just kind of capitulated to the culture?
The problem is there's a word for that in the Greek, and it's a Hellenized Jew, right?
That's right.
So that would actually not be correct from there, but I'm just telling you what their hermeneutic is.
No, that's super helpful.
Yeah, I understand that.
But that's been the strongest argument for me to counteract saying, well, no, there's a term for that you're actually looking for.
It wouldn't be appropriate to call them a Gentile still because.
In the same passage, you'll say to the Israelite first and then to the Israelite.
You know, it's like, well, that doesn't make sense.
Right.
Or they'd have to say to the Jew and then to the, you know, the Hebrewic Jew, Hebraic Jew, and then to the Hellenist Jew.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
That's a good one.
That would be more accurate.
That's a good count.
One of the passages that I've used to show them, you know, Gentiles can be saved, where it's so clear, I mean, is Ephesians 2 11 through 13.
I'll read that.
It says, therefore, remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, so it's like Paul prophetically trying to prove that these are real Gentiles.
Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands.
Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now, in Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
And so, That's one of the strongest texts for me because it's like Paul's pinpointing that these are actual Gentiles.
They're Gentiles of the flesh.
They're called the uncircumcised.
That was not true of Hellenized Jews.
They were alienated from the Commonwealth, separated from Christ.
And so all these were true of the Gentile nation, or Gentile nations.
And then he ends it with, now they can be saved, right?
And then these two people have been made one.
Such a beautiful text, right?
For those who love the gospel.
And so that's one of the texts I've used to demonstrate Gentiles can be saved.
That's great.
Well, let's go ahead and land the plane, but let's land the plane with going back to Jesus.
So, what do they do with Jesus?
Because you said that they would reject the incarnation, the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary and her conceiving by the Holy Spirit.
But they would say that Jesus had an earthly father.
And you said they denied the deity of Christ.
Okay, so then what is Jesus?
Is he just a prophet?
What is Jesus?
Yeah, Jesus is just a.
He's a black man that knows what oppression is like.
So he's kind of using a more example.
Yeah, example.
So oftentimes, when you hear, like, if you just go and listen to them, like, when they're not combating Christians talk about Jesus, Jesus is not used as a person to be admired or worshiped.
It's very often, it's very few that they'll talk about Jesus.
Oftentimes, it's the Christian having to bring up Jesus about his deity and the gospel.
But Christ is more so an example of how we are to live our lives.
They have no really, no view of really a substitutionary atonement.
They rarely talk about the cross.
And so, yeah, Jesus is just a black man, right?
Revelation 1 talks about him being a black man.
That's what they'll say.
Right?
They'll go to that text, Revelation 1.
It says, you know, he has hair like wool.
Well, who else has hair like wool?
That's the black man.
Oh, my goodness.
It's funny because there are actually a lot of people who have hair like wool outside of, you know, but that's another point.
But that's just Jesus is just used as a person who knows what it's like to experience oppression from the hands of the government.
Nothing's changed, right?
Us black people, we still experience the same thing today.
Like, you know, people, they got their knees on our necks, right?
And so that's what Jesus is for them.
It's an example of how to live.
And matter of fact, what's going to happen when he comes back?
He's going to, he's going to, Uh, I mean, obviously, this part is biblical, but the application is wrong, right?
He's gonna crush all his enemies and um and stuff like that.
Well, by enemies, mainly the white man, you know, and so yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty racist group, huh?
Yeah, it is.
Wow, wow, uh, but praise God, but no more racist than the Democratic Party, in my opinion.
So, yeah, but praise God, I've known some people who've abandoned that theology and they've come to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Praying Prey Upon Enemies00:03:10
So, praise God, um, that's that's why I engage with them, you know, I gotta.
As Paul said, right, a love for my kinsmen, right?
I don't want people in the black community, you know, the minority community being just washed away, right?
So I'm like, I feel that zeal.
Like, man, I don't want to just say, well, just continue.
Oh, this is just too crazy.
Just go with the heresy, man.
I want to combat it, you know, with the gospel.
Amen.
Good for you for doing that.
Yeah.
Those according to my kinsmen, those according to the flesh, that I think that's awesome.
I think of a.
Chalk Knox.
I said this on an interview we did a little while back, but he's with Cross Politic.
Are you familiar with him, David Shannon?
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.
Nobody knows his real name because he never uses it.
It's just Chalk Knox.
But he came up with that nickname.
So he's in Moscow for our listeners, if you're not aware, but he's with Gabriel Wrench and Toby Sumter on Cross Politic.
Great podcast.
Wonderful to subscribe to.
Listen to them on a regular basis.
But he came up with that nickname, Chalk Knox, because of the Scottish reformer John Knox.
Who famously said, among many things, but give me Scotland lest I die.
And so Chalk Knox, chocolate, black, is saying, you know, give me the black community lest I die.
So, even though he's up in Moscow, Idaho, with a bunch of white folks for the most part, he's still saying all these things that I've embraced in terms of true biblical doctrine and all the things I'm working for, and the reason I'm doing podcasts and I'm doing this and I'm making art and film and all this kind of stuff, I'm doing it first and foremost for the glory of God and the good of all humanity, all brothers and sisters in Christ.
But I'm also doing it for those according to the flesh, for my kinsmen, for the black community that he realizes he's the black community that is preyed upon.
Um, you know, it's there's really, in my opinion, there's no question about whether or not the black community, minority communities at large, but specifically the black community, is actually being oppressed.
The question is by who and how, right?
So, I think there is oppression when I think of just abortion.
Abortion, um, affects um black people much more.
I mean, Margaret, um, uh, Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, uh, literally talked about wanting to extinguish minority.
Communities through birth control and abortion.
That's what she had in mind.
And then when I think of just the soft bigotry of low expectations, or teaching from a young age, you're a victim, you're in touch.
That is oppression.
That is praying, P R E Y, praying upon somebody strictly on the basis of their skin.
And so, guys like you, guys like David Shannon, Chalk Knox, to say, hey, no, cut that out.
And I'm not just going to say, oh, this is dumb and this is stupid.
I'm going to say, no, but a lot of these people are deceived.
They're just deceived.
And they need the truth.
They need to be freed by the only one who has the authority and power to set someone free, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Engaging Culture With Gospel00:00:54
Absolutely.
Bless you, Chris, for doing that.
Do you have any final thoughts for us?
Man, I was just blessed to be on, man.
Like I said, I watched the content.
So encouraged by what you guys are doing, engaging the culture with the gospel and giving people the truth.
Man, my hopes is that if, if, Who knows?
Black Hebrews are like, watch this, stumble across this, watch this.
It's all love.
I share the truth because I love you.
And I want to see you come to a right saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, the true Israelite.
And then you can become a true Jew by faith.
That's right.
Amen.
Which is way more important.
Amen.
Great.
Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Absolutely.
Thanks so much for listening.
But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor take a moment and leave us a five star review if you enjoyed the show.
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