Pastor Joel and Hasti Gomez dissect theological divides, contrasting Islam's works-based salvation via the Five Pillars against Christianity's grace through faith. They analyze how Islamic doctrines deny Jesus' deity and resurrection, citing Quranic commands to terrorize unbelievers as universal principles rather than historical exceptions. While noting that strict adherence often drives violence in Islam compared to nominal practice, the discussion concludes that these doctrinal differences fundamentally separate the two faiths regarding security, God's nature, and the justification of force. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Hasti Gomez's Journey00:01:39
In this episode, I was privileged to have as a guest Hasti Gomez, who was born in Iran into a Muslim family.
We address the differences between Islam and Christianity, as well as the million dollar question Does Islam promote violence?
I hope you enjoy.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome to Theology Applied.
This is Pastor Joel with Right Recipe.
Response Ministries.
Today, I am privileged to have as a guest Hasti Gomez.
And Hasti goes by the label Biblical and Reformed with her social media ministry.
And she's followed some of our stuff.
I've followed some of hers.
I saw her as an interview on Doreen Virtue's channel and reached out to her.
And so I'm happy to have her on the show today.
We're going to talk about her journey, her testimony.
We're also going to talk a little bit about Islam.
And so I'm excited for the episode that we have in store.
So without further ado, Hasti, would you go ahead and just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
And your social media ministry.
Yeah.
Hi, Joel.
Thanks for having me.
It's an honor to be on your show.
I live in Vancouver with my husband, our kids, Joshua and Isabel, and our dog, Gospel.
I keep busy raising them and taking care of our home and packing lunch kits for my husband.
Lately, I've been a little busier trying to finish my website where I'm trying to.
Sharing Sound Theology00:04:14
Making some merch that has sound theology on it that can help people start a discussion and a conversation about the gospel.
I'll send you one.
And yeah, my social media really started around, I think I started my account in 2017.
And this is while I was still in the first church that I attended for over a decade.
I really wanted something for myself.
It was personal.
I wanted some aesthetically nice pictures with Bible verses.
I really didn't have any idea about sound theology then.
But as I came out of that church and I discovered sound theology and sound doctrine, my page started reflecting that change.
And that's how biblical reform came about.
That's cool.
How many followers do you have at this point?
I think around over 40,000.
Wow, that's really cool.
Do you mainly post just scripture verses, quotes?
Do you ever blog or anything like that?
What's the main gist of your content?
Really, the content, how it started was I was learning, and then I was like, I need to share this.
If someone like me who's come out of false teachings can learn from it, then great.
That's how it all started.
So even to this day, when I listen to a preacher and I hear something that I'm like, that is so good.
I'll share that.
I won't share profound things just because they sound profound.
If I don't understand it, I won't share it.
So I have to understand it.
I have to apply it.
And if I'm moved by it, I'll share it.
And it's mostly from Reformed, sound biblical teachers.
That's great.
Who are some of your favorite teachers alive today that you would find yourself listening to?
Different pastors, theologians?
John MacArthur is one of the top ones, Derek Thomas.
Sinclair Ferguson, Stephen Lawson, Joel Webbin.
Yeah.
Justin Pierre.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So a lot of the masters are Grace to you guys and Ligonier.
Ligonier and Ligonier Teachers.
Yeah, the teaching fellows with Ligonier.
Yeah, they put out a lot of great series, a lot of great content.
I like Derek Thomas's, well, really kind of almost his exposition of Pilgrim's Progress.
And so I don't know if you've listened to that, but other than the Bible, Pilgrim's Progress is arguably the best book ever written.
And I remember I had it on Audible and I had read it before, but I listened to it over the course of three or four months a summer, seven times to where I could.
Recite some of the discourse, especially when Christian is engaging with talkative.
And it's just so profound and so insightful.
And Derek Thomas does a really good job of making sense of the story because it is that old English kind of language that is lost on a lot of people.
But it's not just the language, it's not just the style, but the doctrine, sadly, is lost on many modern evangelicals today.
It's deep doctrine.
And really, one of the overarching principles is this idea that.
Yes, we have assurance of salvation.
There's a moment when Christian, the protagonist, he loses his scroll that represents assurance and he has to go back and he has to find it.
And so he doesn't ultimately ever lose salvation.
And so there is that assurance of salvation, the security of the believer.
But what you're overwhelmed by throughout the entire narrative is how much striving that is involved in this pilgrimage of making it to the celestial city.
It makes me think of Hebrews that we should strive for the holiness for without which no one will see.
The Lord, or to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
And there's a lot of people in the Reformed camp that I think overemphasize grace to the point that they don't really understand that there is a sense in which the Christian diligently strives to follow after God.
Moving to Denmark as Muslims00:02:31
So, Derek Thomas, he's great, Ligonier, big fan.
So, all that being said, let's go ahead and get to your personal story.
So, you were born in Iran and you were born into Islam, you, your family, your parents.
Talk about that.
Talk about your journey out of Islam.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I was born in Iran.
I went to school there for a couple years.
And my dad decided that he didn't want to live in Iran with the regime and with the craziness of Islam.
And it was in the middle of the Iran Iraq war when I was born.
So we were there until the war actually ended.
So I was around eight years old when we moved to Denmark, which is like black and white, like completely different countries.
And I.
To this day, I thank God that I was raised there because it's a beautiful country.
So we moved to Denmark, my brother and I, my mom and my dad, and we started living there as we identified as a Muslim family, even though my dad was a very nominal Christian, very liberal Christian.
I went to school there.
Well, just say it.
You just said Christian, but did you say Muslim?
I'm very nominal.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
That's what I feel a liberal Muslim.
A very liberal Muslim.
Yeah.
And we identified as a Muslim family.
So I went to school there.
And the only time I would go to a church was for a school play or concert.
And that was the extent of Christianity that I knew.
It was beautiful churches.
And that's about it.
Nobody ever, in the 10 years that I was living there, shared the gospel with me personally.
No one.
I was living in a Christian country, but not one person shared.
The good news with me.
And so, fast forward, my parents were going through marital problems.
So, my mom decided that she wanted to move away and she wanted to move to Vancouver with my brother and I.
So, we moved to Vancouver and started over here.
So, I went to school here, high school.
And so, my mom kind of like because my mom was the one that was very devoted to her faith.
To Islam.
Finding Christ in Vancouver00:13:21
But she was just not finding peace in Islam.
She was not finding that it was the truth, especially after she went to, she took the pilgrimage to Mecca with my dad while they were in Denmark.
And she had come back even more confused and more unsettled because she was told, you know, she was visiting one of the holiest and most sacred sites for Muslims.
And she did not feel that.
She came back and she's like, Something's off.
This is not right.
And so, not knowing better, she started going to Sikh temples, to Buddhist temples, and to anything and everything, trying to find that peace.
And we were just oblivious, just being teenagers.
And one day, one of her friends asked her, Hey, do you want to go to church with me?
So she invited her to church, and she was like, Fine.
Like, again, like to her, church was like a museum.
They're beautiful.
You go in, you come out, and she could have, she would go out with her friend the next, that day on a Sunday.
So she goes to church, and while the worship was happening, one of the, one of the songs, worship songs was about the character of God, about God and who he is.
And, and that was, that did it for her.
She felt that that was the truth about God, who God is, what the, How the words were describing God is who she really believed that this is God.
This is who I've been seeking.
Now that we know that God had regenerated her heart, given her the gift of faith to actually draw her to himself.
So she goes home and she starts reading the Bible and she keeps going back to that church.
And so she became a believer about like a year before my brother and I.
And so she would share the Bible stories with us.
She would share verses with us and she would pray for us.
And, you know, my brother and I were like, oh my gosh, now that she's on a like a Jesus journey now.
Like, first it was like the Buddhism stuff, it was the Sikhs.
So we thought this is just another phase.
But one night I remember specifically I was doing homework and she kind of like was like, Hasty, do you know if you put your trust in Christ, he'll forgive you of all your sins?
And it's like everything stopped for me because I'd never been, I never even knew I needed forgiveness.
I'd never been told that.
But I knew myself, I wanted it because of whatever has happened in my past and everything.
And I wanted to be able to forgive.
And so that was very interesting to me because I was like, Are you sure?
Like, are you sure all of it?
Like, completely clean slate?
And she's like, Yeah.
So I was like, oh, interesting.
So that really just caught my attention.
And I decided to go to church with her that Sunday.
And so I go to church, and you know, the church that I am talking about is now that I know is was a charismatic church, very secret friendly and word of faith.
So they had me, so I went up for prayer thinking that it's just like any mosque or whatever, you just go pray, you know, prayer is prayer.
I didn't know any difference.
So when I went up, they asked me if I had if I knew Jesus.
I said no, and they Said, do you want to know Jesus?
I said, sure.
And so they said, repeat this prayer after me.
And so I did.
And I didn't know why they were so happy.
So I had accepted Christ as my savior without knowing.
So that happened.
But again, in God's sovereignty and providence, he did draw me to himself, despite the wrong ways of them not really sharing the gospel with me, not telling me that I was a sinner.
Deserving hell under God's wrath, that I needed to repent and to put my trust in Christ.
I did go home and I started reading the Bible and I started, you know, talking to my mom about it.
So I did come to know God eventually.
But that wasn't it.
No.
But that wasn't it, that moment.
Yeah.
And I can't help but think you said, you know, like they were rejoicing, they were so happy.
You kind of were lost and didn't know what was going on.
And I can't help but think you mentioned that they didn't talk about sin.
They didn't talk about the holiness of God, this thrice holy God, and the severity of man's sin, and therefore God's just wrath towards man in his sin, and man's sin being an affront, an offense to his holiness.
And really, it just got me thinking that you can't rejoice in the good news without first sin.
Yeah, no, with the bad news.
Yeah.
The bad news, exactly.
So for you, you're sitting there and there.
You know, they're excited, and you know, right?
Because in their view, it's like you've just been cured from cancer.
Um, but in your view, you don't even know what a cure for cancer is.
But not only that, you don't even know what cancer is, you know.
And so, exactly, yeah.
So, go ahead, back to you, yeah.
So, that was, um, so that was my my um entrance into Christianity.
Um, I mean, there's a reason for everything, and I trust that God knew what He was doing, and now looking back.
I wouldn't have been able to do what I'm doing, for example, on Instagram, if I actually wasn't in that for a while in the false teachings and the wrong ways of doing things.
He allowed me to be there and to, so for me to be able to bring glory to his name at the end, you know?
So I'm not upset about whatever happened in those 15 years, I think I was in that church.
15?
Is that what you said?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a long time.
Yeah, so I was 19 and I was there when I got married.
So I met my husband there.
So I was 25 when I met him and then stayed there until a few years back where everything just started.
Stuff started happening while I was at that church, stuff that didn't make sense.
For example, like then the word gospel would come up and I would be like, what is the gospel?
Like, why don't I know this?
Why isn't the preacher.
Explaining what the gospel is?
Why can't I share about Christ easily as other people say they do?
How do you share about your faith?
So these things.
And then I would say, why is the Bible not being taught at our church?
Why are we watching movies on a Sunday, you know, Hollywood movie?
Right?
Like, exegeting.
It's funny, pastors, they're like, you know what?
The Bible, it's 66 books, you know, it's 1,500 to 3,000 pages long, depending on your translation.
And even though you would think that there's a plethora of scripture to exegete, let's go ahead and exegete the latest Brad Pitt film.
I think that's what the people need.
Yeah.
It doesn't make a lot of sense.
No.
And like, I would.
This is the crazy part that nobody told me that I was in a prosperity gospel church, that I was in a word of faith church.
I didn't even know what those things were.
But I knew something's off.
Like I knew I didn't like Joel Osteen the way he taught.
And I was like, why is Joel Osteen endorsing our church?
Why are you selling his books here?
And then when I would ask the pastors, they would bring up the Bible where some have the gift of this, some have the gift of this.
So, you know, we don't judge.
And then.
Slowly started, like, I just was like, Why is my mom who needs financial help putting her tithes on her visa?
And she asked, she one time asked the pastor, You know, I don't have money for tithing, I'm putting it on my visa.
And she knew that you shouldn't be in debt.
The Bible clearly says you can't go in debt.
And the past, I was standing there, and the pastor said, You put it on your visa, God will bless you.
You just keep giving.
And in my head, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense.
You know, slowly stuff started.
Why is the pastor marrying a Muslim to a Christian?
The Bible clearly says you can't be unequally yoked.
Why is that okay?
So stuff like that started like ding, ding, ding, you know.
And I didn't have anybody to talk to except my mom.
So we kind of started like, kind of, what is going on?
And then with my husband, I started talking to him later.
And one day, speaking about the movie, we were in this campus where it was mainly for the area where drug addicts are and a lot of homeless people.
So this church was basically there mostly for them to attend it.
And, you know, there was, I arrived to church and there was, All of those, you know, less fortunate or homeless people were in the church as well.
And I hear that we're going to watch this Kevin Costner movie.
And I just like, I couldn't handle it anymore.
I was like, I look around, the movie was playing.
And I'm like, this is what you're giving these people who are here to hear the gospel, the word of God, the Bible.
We're watching a movie.
It was over for me.
I just, I was so angry.
And I went home and I researched.
When is it okay to leave your church?
And Todd Frill from Rested Radio showed up on YouTube, and I just clicked.
I didn't even know who he was.
And it was like, if they use Hillsong music, if they use these music, emotional music, if they're not sharing the gospel, if they're watching movies, and if they're using gimmicks and all that, everything he said was like a check mark.
I was like, oh my word, where am I?
What is going on?
And so, So then another video popped up and it was Justin Peters about false teachers.
So I clicked on it.
And lo and behold, every single teacher he was talking about, my church endorsed Beth Moore, Lisa Devere, John Bevere, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen.
I mean, it was like it rocked my world.
I was like, I mean, this, I was like a twilight zone.
I was like, where, what is happening right now?
Am I actually, I felt like I was lied to for 15 years, you know?
Nobody had told me different.
So I told my mom and My husband, and somehow by God's providence, we just came out of that church and found the church that we now attend.
And it is biblical and it is sound and it's expository preaching, and there's everything you need in a church.
So, you found a good biblical reformed church, which you think is mainly Presbyterian.
And you came out of the prosperity preaching church that you were a part of for 15 years.
And before that, it sounds like you were doing the teenager thing that most teenagers tend to do.
And your mom was on really this journey of trying to find Christ.
And she didn't even know she was looking for Christ, but trying to find the one true God.
And she did her Mecca, her pilgrimage, and realized there's nothing here.
And she tried out Buddhism, I think you said Hinduism, eventually found.
A Christian church that had at least an anemic presentation of the gospel, perhaps even by accident in the music.
And so, but it was enough of a gospel presentation about the character of God, who God is, who man is, and light of God and his love for man, his grace towards man in his sin through the person of Jesus, to where you would say, and your mom would say, that that was the moment that she was regenerate.
And then it was just this long process of growing in biblical theology that eventually.
Ironically, growing in the scripture led you out of the church that your mom was actually saved in because that church wasn't really being faithful to the scripture.
Resurrection vs. Prophet Claims00:09:19
Is that about right?
That's right.
Yep.
Okay.
So now I know that with your personal testimony, this isn't something that you claim to be an expert on.
So we talked about this before you came on the show.
And so I'm not going to grill you with a whole bunch of questions, especially considering the fact that you were a kid when you had this kind of Muslim upbringing.
But.
You certainly have more experience than most growing up in a family with two parents that were Muslim at least at one point.
So, could you talk about that a little bit?
What are some of the things I'm sure as you've gotten older that you've probably at least looked into Islam at some level, knowing that that was your origin and probably having maybe old past family friends that might still be in Islam?
What are some of the things?
Yeah.
So, what are the things that you've come to find, and what are some of, if you could say, these are my biggest concerns with, um, The false religion of Islam.
What would you say?
Yeah, well, the Quran notoriously denies the crucifixion of Christ.
So I have a verse for you.
It says, it's found in Surah 4, verse 157 to 158.
It says, And they're saying, We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.
Whereas in fact, they had neither slain him nor crucified him, but the matter was made dubious to them.
And those who differed about it too were in a state of doubt.
They have no definite knowledge of it, but merely follow conjecture, and they surely slew him not, but Allah raised him to himself.
So, Islam denies fundamental truths about Christianity and about Christ, about what Christianity reveals about Christ, about his death, his deity, his resurrection.
So, Islam denies all those three things the death, deity, and resurrection of Christ.
It denies that Christ claimed to be God, it denies that Christ died on the cross.
And so, if he never died on the cross, how did he rise from the dead?
So, and that's, but we know, like, in as a Christian, we know that the word of God tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 3 4, for I delivered to you as of first importance, but I also received that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.
And Romans 10 9 tells us, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The deity, the death, and resurrection of Christ.
So, And we know that as we know as Christians that the atonement is tied into the death and resurrection of Christ.
So Muslims are taught these things never happen.
Right.
Which makes it very hard to somewhat, kind of somewhat challenging to share the hope that's found in the work of Christ on the cross with Muslims.
But, you know, Knowing that it is God who saves, it's God that regenerates us, gives us a heart of flesh.
We just need to share the good news with them.
We need to share the gospel with them, pray for them, and trust that God is the one that does the saving, even though they might believe all those things.
Because we can't always, yeah.
Go ahead.
We can't always know the things.
Yeah, I was going to say you're right.
Incredibly challenging if you're trying to share the gospel with someone who it's one thing sharing the gospel with someone who is just strictly secular, right?
You know, but but sharing the gospel with someone who has been trained and discipled from a very young age, not just that the story of the gospel, the message of Christ, his death, his burial, his resurrection has been neglected, but it actually has been taught and it's been taught precisely that it never occurred, that it never even happened.
It seems that.
In human terms, that there's a larger hurdle to overcome, but you're right.
And in biblical terms, at the end of the day, God softens even the hardest of hearts, and salvation ultimately belongs to the Lord.
And that's why we don't, you know, we don't just look at people and say, Hey, that seems like an easy win for Christ.
I'll go and evangelize with that person.
And ah, that person seems too far gone.
At the end of the day, I can't imagine how many Christians in the early church would have looked at Saul of Tarsus and said, No way.
No way that guy's ever coming to Christ.
And lo and behold, he becomes the apostle to the Gentiles.
So, with that being said, the Quran is interesting because one of the things that, and I haven't studied extensively by any stretch of the imagination, but one of the things that I've learned is to me, it seems quite obvious that Muhammad is the author, he's the writer, even though I know that the claim is that the Quran literally fell out of the sky, that it came from God.
Whereas Christian doctrine and Christian The Christian faith and tradition holds.
We've never said that, you know, that the Bible is God's word that literally just fell out of the sky.
We've always held to human authorship, but with inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
And the Holy Spirit inspiring, not forcing man to write down words, but inspiring human authors in such a way that we have the infallible words of God, but this inspiration of the Spirit being subtle enough, strong enough to where we can trust that the word is God's infallible word, but subtle enough to where the style, For instance, of the personality,
some of the characteristics of the human author actually remain to where you can be reading John and you can be reading Paul and you can get a sense, oh, yeah, this is John.
This is the way that John writes.
This is Paul.
This is the way that Paul writes.
But with Islam, it's this idea that it just fell out of the sky, written by the finger of God, and here it is, dropped in Muhammad's lap.
And it's always kind of humorous to me because it seems to be pretty obvious, even with just a basic working understanding of Islam, that the Quran was.
Was written by Muhammad because it actually mirrors Christian teachings, but you can tell that even that it was written during Muhammad's life if you look at human history and when he was born and when he died.
Because some of the Christian teachings that were circulating during the life of Muhammad when he lived and when he very clearly was writing portions of the Quran, during that time, some of the Christian teachings that were circulating were false teachings and especially Gnostic teachings.
And so, some of the things that That you find in the Quran, you know, talking about Jesus as not the Son of God, but as the prophet.
Some of the things, you know, talk about Jesus in his infancy or even as a toddler.
And so, one of the instances is when Mary and Joseph are going, I believe it's when they're heading to Bethlehem that Mary is weary from the journey and that she's thirsty, and that Jesus speaks from the womb to a tree and the tree bends over so that Mary can grab fruit.
There's another instance where Mary is being heckled and mocked by people for, in their eyes, having a child out of wedlock.
And Jesus is still just an infant recently born.
He's nursing at his mother's breast and he turns, you know, and stops nursing for a moment and turns and, as an infant, talks and rebukes the crowd that's mocking his mother.
And those are actually teachings that were floating around in the Christian tradition, but not actually.
Inspired text from the apostles commissioned by Christ to write scripture, but by Gnostic writers and heretical writers.
And so you can see, and they were floating around and became popularized in the specific area where Muhammad was living.
And so it's very clear that, like, he was trying to get some kind of credibility for the Quran by piggybacking on Christianity, but he piggybacked accidentally on heretical Gnostic teachings of Christianity without even realizing it because that happened to be what was prevalent in his lifetime.
And so the Quran is.
Fairly easily, just from an objective standpoint, easy to date.
It's easy to be able to say, yeah, this isn't the eternal word of Allah that existed before time began and fell out of the sky.
So, anyway, do you have any thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean, it's very, Islam is also very superstitious, you know, they're very superstitious.
But one thing about it, oh, yeah, there's a lot of just weird things mixed into Islam that just, They believe anything like, you know, how Catholics see things on the wall and they're like, oh, that's Mary, or they have the same kind of thing.
It's all the same things.
Grace Over Fear of Judgment00:15:14
Like we used to go to visit, you know, you go to Mashhad in Iran where certain prophets have died and they're buried there.
And they would take locks and put it at the grave.
And if it opened, your prayers would be answered.
Stuff like that, where it's just like, it's so bad because people really, really believe in it.
But Islam is one thing about Islam that is false.
Why it's a false religion is also because, like other false religions, it's It's a very workspace religion.
So, a Muslim's entrance into paradise hinges on the five pillars of Islam.
Right.
I was hoping you would explain those.
Yeah.
What are the five?
Because I know the pilgrimage to Mecca, which I'm assuming that's why your parents did it, that's one of the five.
Is that right?
Yeah.
So, it's testimony of faith, it is prayer, it is giving, it is fasting, and it is pilgrimage to Mecca.
So, but even if you do all that perfectly, you can still be rejected by Allah.
Really?
Wow.
So there is no assurance of salvation in Islam.
And so paradise can be earned through keeping the five pillars in Islam, but there's no assurance of salvation.
Yet our Bible does that.
Is that because you may not have achieved or been successful with the five pillars enough?
Or does that point towards, and it's a genuine question, I don't know, does that point towards the fact that, you know, No matter how disciplined you are, right?
So, totally, it's certainly a works based salvation.
But the lack of assurance was really interesting that you mentioned that.
And so, my question is is it because you never know if the works were good enough?
Or is there an element with the character of Allah where, like, even if somebody was the most devoted Muslim, there possibly was, and they actually did the works more than any other Muslim, someone who actually did less works than them might get in, and this person who did more might still not get in because Allah is fickle.
But you can't, you can't.
Is it, is it, so is it because of works of God?
You don't know God.
You don't know what Allah knows.
You know, you will never understand Him.
So you will never know.
So you live in this limbo, you know.
But the Bible tells us that, you know, no amount of good deeds, all our righteous deeds are like filthy rags, you know, complete opposite that you can't buy your salvation, you can't bribe God with your good works.
And it is that sinful man can never do any of that.
And it's only by God's grace, through repentant faith in Christ alone, that you can be saved.
Amen.
That's really interesting because it makes me think of two things.
It makes me think of what you just so beautifully said the gospel that we're, you know, so the contrast between Christianity and Islam is first, Christianity is the gospel of grace.
I'm always fond of telling my congregation, both when I was in California and now here in Texas, that the gospel is not a message of the love of God, it's a message of the grace of God because you can have love for a perfect being.
God loves his angels, right?
But angels, other than a third of the angels who rebelled against God and have never once been offered a single chance of redemption.
But the two thirds of angels who have been faithful to God, and even cherubim and seraphim, and the four living creatures that surround the throne of God, you know, covered in eyes with six wings, you know, and the 24 elders on 24 thrones, all of these angelic beings that have never betrayed God, never sinned against him, God loves them.
But the gospel is not a message of love because you can have love for a perfect being, for a being that is perfectly moral.
We love God, right?
But we don't forgive God.
We don't have grace for God.
We don't have mercy for God because God doesn't need our grace.
He doesn't need mercy because He's never done anything but be deserving, fully and perfectly deserving of our adoration, our worship, our devotion, our love.
And so the gospel is not just a message of love, it's a message of grace, which is a particular kind of love.
It's a love for those who don't deserve it.
It's unmerited favor.
So you said that the gospel is grace.
And that's one big distinction, one.
One contrast between Christianity and Islam, but it seems like the other one that you've kind of been saying and that I wanted to pick up on for a moment is also that our God is immutable.
So it's not just that our God is a God of grace and mercy, but He's also immutable, meaning that He never changes.
And so I think of, I think it's Micah or maybe it's Malachi, but the verse that says, Behold, I am the Lord, I changeth not, so that you, the sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
Meaning that there's something about not just the mercy of God and the grace of God, but there's something about the The immutability of God, his unchangingness, for lack of a real word, because I don't think that's a real word, but the immutability of God, the fact that he never changes, is the Christian's good.
It is the Christian's good that our God doesn't fly off the handle, that our God is not fickle, that he's not easily swayed.
We have verses in the scripture that talk about the Lord was grieved that he made man, or the Lord repented, or some translations say, I believe the King James, or other translations say, Regretted, but even in those instances, we have to understand that underneath the banner of the doctrine of analogy, it's anthropopathic language, which is a big word, but it's God doesn't really have emotions in the same way that anthropomorphic language means that God doesn't actually have physical attributes,
He's a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.
So, God doesn't, you know, His right arm is mighty to save, but God doesn't have a literal right arm, you know, or His eyes go to and fro over there.
In the same way, God also, it's not like He was on a dime.
You know, happy because the Israelites did something good.
And then he was really sad because they disappointed him.
God is not in process.
He's not a man, right?
The Bible says he is not a man that he should repent or he is not a man that he should change his mind.
And that's something that Christians really need to see tied into the gospel the immutability of God, the fact that he never changes.
He's the same yesterday, today, and forevermore.
And the idea that he is the omniscient God, he's the immutable God.
That's tied into his omniscience.
The fact that one of the reasons he never changes, not only because of his immutable essence, but because of his omniscience, meaning me and you, we change because we come into new information.
We learn new things.
But God is not in process, he's omniscient.
He knows the end from the beginning.
And that's such good news to us.
Because what that means is that, you know, I might be really bummed out tomorrow if I sin in some way that, you know, that I'm not aware of today.
It's a surprise to me, but God is never surprised.
God made the choice before the foundations of the earth were laid to, in love, to elect me, to foreknow me and elect me and choose me and give his son Jesus to die for me, knowing good and well, fully all the heinous things that I haven't even done yet, but that I will do.
And so there's something powerful about not just that, you know, Christianity is the doctrine, the gospel of grace, not just love, but grace and mercy, but it also is a grace and mercy that proceeds from.
The immutable, unchanging God.
And it sounds like what you're saying is really two things that Allah in Islam, not only is it a doctrine of works, a works based salvation, but even if you work hard enough, not only because you're unsure of how good your works were, but you're also unsure of the character of the God that you're working for.
Allah.
He's not constant.
Yeah.
He's not constant.
Yeah.
So, anyways, I said a lot there, and I'm sure you maybe had a few thoughts.
So go ahead if there's something you want to.
No, but like everything you said is exactly right about Islam.
So it's.
I think that's why also people don't have, you know, because we know fully that we're forgiven, we have this, we can find the strength to say, I'm forgiven of everything.
And you trust that God is faithful to forgive you.
You have the strength to forgive others.
But Islam doesn't have that.
So there's no, they can't put their strength in anything to say, well, Allah forgave me because they don't know if He has.
They don't know if, you know what I mean?
So there's this.
There's no security in believing in Allah, you know.
And also, the teachings of Islam, they not alone deny the truth about everything about Christ.
And unfortunately, Muslims don't comprehend how Allah would allow his prophet Esau, Jesus, to die a horrible death on a cross.
So to them, they see it as weakness.
You know, to them, they would be like, why would.
You know, why would he allow him to die if he's God or if he's, you know, even his prophet?
But the Bible again shows us how the death of the perfect, sinless Son of God is the only way to atone for our sins.
So everything we believe, they turn it upside down and they don't believe that.
So, yeah, that's really profound.
Yeah, and it's funny that actually Islam, even though it's this religion of works and you think of just, All these rules and regulations and heavy burdens laid upon the adherents of Islam and all these kind of things.
And yet, the irony is that it's not a heavier view of the holiness of Allah and the sinfulness of man.
It's actually a much lighter view of sin, Islam, in my assessment, has a much lighter, not heavier, but a much lighter view of sin because it's a sin that man in himself can still, in his own effort, in his own will, his own strength, atone for.
Whereas in the Christian faith, we're saying, no, no, no.
It's like, well, God, I want to make this up to you.
You know what?
Why don't you sit a couple plays out?
That's cute.
I don't think you understand, son, daughter, how sinful you actually are.
You can't make this up to me.
But for your sin to be atoned for, it took my son bleeding out at Calvary and drinking the full cup of the white hot wrath of God.
And so it's not, Christianity is not a lighter.
Idea of holiness and sin.
And it's actually a much heavier view of all those things, infinitely so, because the only thing that's enough is death.
The wages of sin is death.
There is no substitute for death.
Someone has to die, either you or the Savior in your place.
Back to you, I'm sorry.
No, don't be.
One thing I feel like Islam is heavy on is the fear of God, but not in the way we fear God, where it's the reverence.
You love him and you want to honor him.
That's why you fear him.
You know, Islam is like, I'm afraid.
Like you freeze, you want to, you know what I mean?
When you just can't move, that's the kind of fear that they feed you.
So, okay, it's again, it's an upside down kind of thing, you know, right?
Completely, yeah, that's another really good insight.
I can't remember the text.
I'm gonna, this is a bold move in an episode to actually try to find a text.
I know it's Hebrews, I want to say it's Hebrews too.
Somebody who's gonna listen to this is gonna be like, they're gonna know what it is, and I don't know what it is, and they're gonna be.
Shouting at their computer, trying to tell me the reference.
But, anyways, it's when Jesus, it's when, oh, nailed it.
Oh, my goodness.
It's Hebrews 2.
I knew it.
Hebrews 2, verse 14.
Thanks.
Verse 14 and 15 says this Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he, being Christ himself, likewise partook of the same things.
So the incarnation took on flesh, the divine took on flesh, that through death, that is his death on the cross, he, being Christ, might destroy the one who has.
The power of death, that is the devil, and deliver verse 15 is key and deliver all those who, through fear of death, were subject to lifelong slavery.
Fear this is my point fear and slavery go hand in hand.
You can't be a slave apart from fear.
That's that's the weapon, that's the that those are the chains, the chains that that ultimately enslave are the chains of fear.
And so, any false religion.
And not just, you know, false religion of Islam, but the false religion of secularism, right?
You know, we were talking about that before we started recording.
The false religion of secularism, same thing.
How do you, if you're an elite, if you're the civil magistrate, you're some kind of ruling elite, somebody in power, and you want to accrue more authority, more power, how do you get it?
Well, you can't get more power unless people are willing to give it to you, forfeit it.
So you have to enslave them.
So what do you use?
What's your tactic?
What's your strategy?
Fear.
Hey, coronavirus.
Everybody's going to die.
It's the old adage.
I think Hillary Clinton even said it, that never let a good crisis go to waste, which is like, what?
You can't even hear that without cringing.
It's like, why would you say that?
And aren't you ashamed that that just came out of you?
But that's the mindset.
So whether it's the false religion of Islam or the false religion of Joe Biden, either way, secularism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, there's always this sense of the people are enslaved.
And what I love about that text, Hebrews chapter 2, verse 14 and 15, is the scripture, the Christian scripture, says that all people were enslaved, particularly, specifically to the fear of death.
And that Jesus took on flesh and by his death, so Jesus by his death ransomed us, delivered us from slavery, lifelong.
It says lifelong slavery to the fear of death.
And it seems like that's what you're saying, that.
Precious people made in the image of God who are steeped in Islam, there's just this constant fear.
And you bifurcate and say, you know, the fear that they have is very different than the way that we're commanded as Christians to fear the Lord.
And I think one of the big differences is it's the fear of God Himself, which is what the Christians commanded to have that reverence and awe of God, versus the fear of what God might do to me, the fear of God's judgment, the fear of God.
Exactly.
True Fear of God Himself00:04:09
And so that's what it is.
It's the Fear of death, and it's really to me, it seems like it's the fear of death at the hand of Allah.
It's the fear of the judgment of God rather than the fear of God Himself.
So, it's not even that Allah is so holy and so awe inspiring that I tremble with, R.C. Spohl used to say, you know, it's a sense of trembling in fear, but also exhilaration, excitement, right?
Adrenaline.
It's like to stand in the presence of God will be this, it'll be like, on one hand, it's almost like a sense of we can't take it.
It's like, I don't know if I want to be here any longer.
How can I be anywhere else?
I want to see, I want to know him and be known by him.
And so it's this awe inspired, like lightning and thunder that you're just like, wow, like it crashes through.
You're afraid, but you're in awe, yeah.
But you're in awe.
Like if you know that the lightning's not going to strike you, right?
You somehow have this guarantee that you're not going to be the object of the lightning, that it actually strikes, then there's this trembling of fear, but also this.
Exhilaration, this excitement.
And that's the fear, the Christian fear that children of God have for our Heavenly Father.
We fear God.
There's a difference in fearing God Himself versus fearing what God might do to us, fearing God's judgment, fearing death at the hand of God.
And it sounds like that's what you're saying that the Muslim has this not a fear of Allah so much that Allah is such this incredible, awe inspiring, beautiful, robust being, but rather it's It's all the things that Allah could do to you if you don't shake up.
That's like a child, your child obeying you out of fear of being punished, or obeying you because he actually loves you and respects you.
There's a complete difference.
One is a sick relationship.
It's not healthy.
Do you know what I mean?
That's not what you want, even for your children.
So, yeah.
Yep.
No, you're right.
So, okay.
So, some of the distinctions, just to kind of recap for a moment, because you've.
You've listed some good things.
So you're saying one is this idea of fear, fear of God versus a fear of Allah and really his judgment, his punishment.
Another is works based salvation versus grace based.
And with that, you know, we talked about the idea that Allah isn't constant, there's no guarantees.
And whereas the immutability of the Christian God, the triune God, he never changes.
And the fact that he never changes is our good.
Behold, I am the Lord that changeth not, so that you, the sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
Kind of implying implicitly, there's this idea that God might flare up in his wrath and consume us because of a whim, but that our God doesn't do that.
His constantness, his steadiness is our good.
And so, those are some of the differences grace based versus works based, not constant versus immutable, fear of judgment, fear of death versus an actual fear of God himself in reverence.
Were there any other distinctions that you mentioned that I'm forgetting, or another one that you wanted to mention?
Those are some great ones.
Yeah.
I'm sure there's more, but those are what I could think of for now.
That's great.
Those are great to highlight.
Real quick, just for our listeners, so I can't even do it, so I'm going to have to rely on you.
Could you also recap what were the five pillars again in the works that a Muslim has to perform?
So it's a testimony of faith, prayer.
And what is that, real quick?
Is that just kind of like a profession?
You know how they say, La ilaha illallah.
Allah is the only God, something like that.
So you profess that Allah is God.
Is that a one time thing?
Is that a one time thing?
I believe so.
Okay.
Yeah, I believe so.
Ramadan and Five Pillars Recap00:03:14
I don't know, to be honest, exactly how you do that.
But, you know, given that in one of the verses it says, you know, lay in ambush and, you know, attack the unbeliever, whatever.
But if they profess the faith, leave them alone.
They're good.
So it's like a quick thing you say and you're, you know what I mean?
Yeah, like almost like put a gun to your head and say it.
Say that all is good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So testimony of faith, praying, fasting, giving, and pilgrimage to Mecca.
And with praying and fasting, if my memory serves me, it's very specific.
So it's not just like, and you have to pray.
You know, like sometimes Christians can be guilty.
Exactly.
Because Christians really, hey, I'm praying for you.
And it's like, oh, are you?
Oh, yeah.
Not at all like that.
Yeah.
So it's like, no, you really have to pray.
And it's very specific.
It's five times a day.
And is it at certain times?
Is that right?
Yeah.
So it's like before the sunrise, before the sunset, in the middle of the day.
And you have to do the whole ritual where you wash your face.
Wash it's like so you go and you like wash, pour water over your hands, over your face, across your head, and put water on your feet.
And women have to cover up with a hijab and chador and everything, and you have to face Mecca.
Face Mecca, that's right.
Yeah.
What is if you're familiar, what is so that's prayer?
What does fasting look like?
Are there any specifics for how fasting is during Ramadan?
Okay, explain that.
What is Ramadan?
Oh my goodness, I should know this.
But basically, it's like a month, holy month, where you fast before the sunrise.
So you eat before sunrise and you don't eat or drink until the sun goes down.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's your way up.
Yeah.
You said like it's a whole month.
It makes me think of Lent.
Sometimes, even with Protestants, there's some hangovers from Rome, is what I call it, the Rome hangover.
So, they'll still practice Lent, you know, or observe it and say, well, it's still just, you know, it's a good principle or a good practice.
And sometimes, you know, somebody will ask me, hey, are you giving anything up for Lent?
You know, and I always say, yeah, I'm giving up Catholicism.
I'm giving up Rome.
I'm giving up the Pope.
And I'm devoting myself to Scripture.
I'm devoting myself to bacon.
I'm devoting myself, you know, just anyways.
But I'm not a Lent follower.
So, but that's what it made me think of a month of, okay, so that's fasting.
So, prayer, it's five times a day facing Mecca.
You got a washing, cleansing ceremony.
Um, uh, certain times of the day, fasting, it's the month.
Um, say it again, Ramadan.
How do you say Ramadan?
Yeah, Ramadan, and that's a fasting basically whenever the sun is up, so you can eat right before sunrise and you have to wait till sunset.
And so that's that's prayer, that's fasting.
You said testimony, and then there's the journey to Mecca.
You have to, that's just you need to do that at least once if you can afford it at least once in your life.
And what was the fourth one before uh, giving?
Violence Sanctioned by Quran00:09:16
Okay, are there any specifications on that?
Honestly, I think it's just giving to the poor.
It's a big thing.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, with that, kind of last question with Islam, and then we'll start to wrap up because I know that we're kind of starting to get a little bit short on time.
But with Islam, so we've kind of got a basic sense it's a workspace religion.
Allah is not constant.
He's not immutable.
It's not grace based.
It's not mercy.
There's a denial.
That's what you said earlier.
There's a denial of the gospel and that Jesus even died, right?
Because they see that as weakness.
I couldn't help but think when you said that, I thought of what Paul says about.
About the Greek and the Jew, you know, that it's foolishness.
The gospel is foolishness to the Greek and it's an offense to the Jew.
And we could say it's an offense to the Jew, it's foolishness to the Greek, and it's weakness to the Muslim.
And so that was really a helpful point that you made.
And there's the sense of fearing Allah and His judgment, what He's going to do to you, and it's never enough, rather than actual fear of God Himself, because who God is is so majestic and so awe inspiring.
So, with all that, the last kind of question that I have is just, Is Islam a lot of people ask this, but I just would like to hear your take on it.
Is Islam, is it fair to say Islam is a violent religion?
Does the Quran command Muslims to be violent towards non Muslims?
And a further question if the answer is yes, assuming that your answer is yes, how would you respond to someone who would object?
And I could think of a ton of people who wouldn't even, they're not even Muslims themselves, but they would say, oh, no, you know, because that's a strong statement.
It's, you know, and they would say, no, that's not fair.
You know, Islam isn't, it doesn't.
It doesn't perpetuate, doesn't advocate for violence.
And their basis would be they say there are millions of Muslims who are peaceful.
So, how would you?
Well, first, what is your answer?
It doesn't promote violence.
And then, how would you respond to someone who says, but there's so many peaceful Muslims?
Well, I certainly wouldn't call Islam a religion of peace, like many people try to do.
Now, this doesn't mean that Islam, Islamic belief, makes Muslims violent.
Like, that's not true.
There's a difference.
However, the violent acts that have been committed in the name of Islam can't be divorced from the religion itself.
Right.
It's one and the same.
And why is that?
Because somebody could, you know, just to play the devil's advocate, I could say, well, the violent acts of the Crusades can't be divorced from the Christian faith.
But I think you and I would both say, no, that's a bug, not a feature, right?
In the same way that I would look to the founding of.
Of the United States, and you know, in the Constitution, I would say slavery was a bug, but not the feature.
And that the Constitution actually, in the Declaration of Independence, actually is what laid the framework for eventually abolishing slavery.
But with Islam, you're saying no, it can't be divorced.
So, you're it sounds like what you're saying is no, the actual doctrines lend towards this.
Could you talk about that?
So, they go to the Quran to justify the violent acts.
So, the call to violence and the justification for it are explicitly taught in the Quran.
So, violence is in Islam is like a theologically sanctioned.
So, they justify it by using the Quran.
So, these violent doctrines that are taught in the Quran can be activated by a number of offenses like apostasy, blasphemy, adultery, homosexuality.
Theft.
So, for example, in Iran or Saudi Arabia, I'm sure other places like Afghanistan, they will cut off the hands or fingers of thieves.
And they don't just make that up.
They use the Quran, Surah 538.
It says, As for the thief, the male and the female amputate their hands in recompense for what they earned, committed as a deterrent punishment from Allah.
And Allah is exalted in might and wise.
So, That they're using the Quran, and that is a violent doctrine in the Quran.
You can't deny that.
I feel bad for the person who was stolen from.
What I love about Christian doctrine in the Old Testament is that if someone steals, what God's law demands is that they make double restitution.
Cut off my hand.
It's like, okay, so I can't even work to do anything.
Exactly.
I've been severely punished for stealing, but the person I stole from is no better off.
Whereas in Christian doctrine, the issue is no, you need to make right the wrong.
The person that you stole from, they need to receive the restoration of their property with interest.
Yeah, go ahead.
Any other, any other?
Yeah, that's true.
So, yeah, I have a few.
Um, but the Quran teaches so, the Quran teaches these violent doctrines, and they're clearly proven to be harmful and deadly when, um, these doctrines are interpreted by groups like ISIS or Al Qaeda or, you know, regimes like Iran, because it all depends who's interpreting it, you know?
So, right, right.
Nominal Muslims would say, no, no, no, the peaceful versus abrogate, those ones.
But that's not how those groups see it.
Right.
So, for example, in Iran, the official religion is Shia Islam.
There are minority religious groups like Jews, Zoroastrians, and Christians.
And by Christians, I don't mean me that has converted from Islam to Christianity.
I mean like Armenians who are born.
Into Christianity.
So they're recognized as a minority group, but the government, by the way they act and treat them, they are not safe.
They're not living in freedom in Iran.
You know what I mean?
And even Muslims who are challenging the government in any way or who are against any laws.
Even a Muslim who identifies as a homosexual, they're all going to be either imprisoned, flogged, persecuted.
I mean, there is no peaceful way to address those people in Islam, especially in Iran and Saudi Arabia, et cetera.
So that's speaking of the way that Islam deals with people who actually are Muslim themselves in many cases, but are not upholding.
Islamic doctrine.
But what are some of the specifics that Islam or the Quran would say in how to treat people who are not Muslim?
How do you deal with the infidel?
How do you deal with the infidel?
Yeah, me, with me, and the unbeliever.
So the Quran contains verses like we talked about that Muslims believe Allah revealed to Muhammad, to their prophet Muhammad.
And these verses.
These laws and these commandments were revealed to him during different circumstances and different times.
So, when he was during war or during peaceful times.
So, how these, and some of these verses, they exhort to go commit violence against infidels, against the enemies, and anyone who's not Muslim is their enemy, really.
I mean, I forgot to tell you, but like when I was in grade two, we would have to line up if we're going inside to our classrooms and we would have to chant death upon America, death upon Israel.
I mean, that's just something you do.
Yeah.
So you're trained to think of Americans in Israel as.
America does that now too, actually.
And I think kindergarten through second grade, America ironically also trains their kids to say death upon America.
That's a joke, but not too far from that.
But not really.
American in the school system, they're getting pretty diligent about training kids to hate our own country.
That's true.
It's very sad.
That's very sad.
Interpreting Scripture for Us00:16:01
Anyways.
So, about the verses you wanted to know.
Yeah, yeah.
So, I have a few here.
So, Surah 3 151 says, We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, all non Muslims.
Surah 2 191.
And kill them wherever you find them, kill them.
Such is the recompense of the disbelievers, Surah 9.5.
Then kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush.
So if Muslims like Osama bin Laden believe that they're being oppressed, that they're being unjustly treated, that they're going to go to these verses and declare jihad against the enemy.
They're going to use those verses and they're not going to say, Oh, yeah, the peaceful ones abrogated these ones or vice versa.
No, they're going to use these verses to justify their violent end.
So, um, again, to play the devil's advocate for just a moment, you know, somebody might say, Well, there are verses in the Old Testament where, you know, I mean, God quite literally called his people Israel to commit genocide to wipe out entire nations, uh, men, women, and uh, children.
And I think what I would say, and I want to see if you have a thought on this or if you would agree, but what I would say is, um, One of the things that's different, God did do that, and he was just and righteous and holy in doing so because God has the right to punish the wicked, and sometimes he does it with fire and brimstone, like in the case of Sodom.
And sometimes he waits and does it on the final day of judgment, the life to come in hell.
And sometimes he does it in this life, not through literal fire and brimstone, but sometimes he does it through human agency.
God, who is sovereign over all, sometimes the The rod that he wields in order to exact justice is war.
And in the case of Israel, Israel was being used.
So it wasn't just because God loved Israel, he wanted them to inherit the land, right?
We always think, well, it's because God loved Israel, but man, what about those other nations?
God loved Israel so much, he just gave them rights to kill everybody else.
No, it's a double sided coin.
On the one hand, God loved Israel and chose them.
On the other hand, these other nations were pagan nations doing atrocious, wicked things.
And God had been very slow and very patient in storing up his wrath against pagans, the wicked who were sacrificing their children, babies to Moloch and false gods and things like this, you know, like, again, like we do in abortion.
And God was very patient and slow to anger.
And then he used Israel.
As his agent of justice towards him.
But all that being said, what I would say is this, you know, because you could say, well, you know, somebody could probably make an argument similar to that, at least in the case of the verses that you just read from the Quran.
But what I would say is also in the Old Testament, it's very clear that God's speaking to Israel.
So when God says these things, it's not a universal principle for all of God's people in all places throughout all of human history.
It's what God is saying to a particular people, namely Israel, at a particular time in a particular Instance.
And so I appreciate when theologians say, all scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to us.
And it's important that we understand the difference.
All scripture is God breathed, and it's all useful for training, rebuking, all these things to make the man of God perfect.
It's sufficient, it's good.
And so there's not one single verse in the Bible that is not for every single believer, for you, for me, and for anybody else who hopes and trusts in Christ.
But not all of scripture is to us.
Paul, when he's writing 1 and 2 Timothy, it's to Timothy.
Now, we glean a lot by being kind of this third party onlooker reading it.
It's for us, but it was to Timothy.
And in the Old Testament, when God says things like, wipe out this entire nation of women and children and even the cattle and livestock, that is for us.
I mean, there's something that we can learn from that, but that's not to us.
He's not saying, Hasty, Joel, go and do it.
He's saying, Israel, at this time, in this place, With these particular people, this particular nation.
And whereas the verses that you just read, and granted, you just read a couple verses and we didn't read an entire excerpt, you know, back out and get the context, but I'd be willing to bet, I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that the context isn't saying these particular Muslims with these particular infidels at this particular time lie in wait and ambush and kill them.
It seems like it's a universal principle for all those who claim to be.
Worshippers of Allah towards all unbelievers in any place in any time.
Is that correct?
Well, that's how they interpret it.
Like, that's how the.
That's why if I go back to Iran, I will be in prison.
And unless I say, you know, I repent and I'll turn back to Islam, they will execute me.
There's no.
So they will.
Again, the death penalty is for apostasy, is death penalty.
That's.
And they're going to use the Quran to justify that.
Right, right.
Yeah, and it's, but it's, I guess my point is it's more than just that's how you said that's how it's interpreted.
But in my assessment, and from the little bit of study that I've done with the Quran and with Islam, it seems that it's not just that that's the way it's interpreted, it seems that's the way that the Quran is actually written.
And it's not just interpretation.
It is written like that.
But the people who will object to that will say, That's how it's interpreted.
And that's not.
Do you know what I mean?
So that's the difference.
I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah.
And so, and I think that's, and therein lies the difference.
Because I think what you and I would both say is that those who say, well, that's their interpretation, you and I would both categorize them as actually the liberal Muslim, the person who's actually.
So we would say that although we disagree with the actions, we disagree with the content of the Quran, and we disagree with those who are actually fulfilling it and acting it out, but we would say that they actually have.
The more faithful interpretation.
Pretty much.
Because they would actually kill those people too, the ones that are saying this is not Islam.
So the Muslims that are saying, no, no, you know what I mean?
Yes.
And, but it's, yeah, so that's what they would do.
That's how they read it.
But even more than that, it's very clearly, that's what it says.
It's what it said.
Whereas, with, you know, with the Old Testament and Israel and their conquests and things like that, when God called them to inflict violence and war, it's very easy for me to make the explanation that I just made all scripture being for us, but not all of it is to us.
And this was particular to Israel.
And Israel is right there in the verse, right?
Israel, do this to this nation at this.
It's all.
It's not just my interpretation, it's in the text.
It's not just the way I'm reading it, it's the way it was written.
And the Christians wouldn't be able to use that now and kill someone.
Exactly, exactly.
And if they did, it would be so.
We would say you are not a Christian.
Yeah, we would say you're not a Christian and you have so clearly interpreted this wrongly.
Whereas in the case of Islam, although it is true that the mass majority of Muslims, as far as I can tell, are very peaceful people.
They would.
My point is this.
I said it earlier, but I'll say it again.
Violence, when there is that outlier, right?
That person who claims to be a Christian and yet they are responsible for a school shooting.
Or the man, for instance, who went to a Christian church and claimed to be Christian and said that he was struggling with lust and he went and shot up a bunch of massage parlors and killed a number of women.
We would look at that and we would be able to, you know, we would say that guy was off his rocker and probably needed some serious medical help.
And that is not a Christian action.
And that's also not Christian doctrine.
And again, to be fair, the Muslim would say, you know, with 9 11, right?
They would say that's not Muslim doctrine and that's not a Muslim action.
But when you look at the text, that's right.
And you look at the Christian text, I have a text where I can say, nowhere in this text will you find us.
But then with the Quran, I can say, yeah, I see how that guy got there.
I feel like, you know, like you're saying that this guy's off his rocker and that he's crazy, and that's just this horrible interpretation.
But that seems like a much plainer reading of the Quran.
Because they're basically imitating their leader, right?
They're imitating Muhammad.
That's their claim.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anything else you want to add on the issue that we've been discussing of violence and Islam?
I think that was really good.
Is there anything else?
I would just reiterate that most Muslims that I know and that I've known have been gracious, peace loving people.
And that's because they don't practice Islam, really.
That's the main reason.
They're very nominal, just like I was a nominal Muslim.
I mean, I used to go to mosques with my parents, I used to pray, I used to fast, and I wholeheartedly rejected a lot of Islam's laws.
And, you know, so.
I understand when people are like, but look at all these peaceful people.
Do you know what I mean?
So, the same way that I wouldn't want to be stereotyped as a Christian, like, I don't know, like there are many types of Christians, right?
So, there are those who just profess by name and just take the label of a religion, but they don't really apply, they don't believe anything about it or practice it.
And there's those who actually profess faith in Christ.
But they just profess it, but they don't have faith.
They don't possess faith in Christ.
They don't actually live it.
They're not saved.
They're not Christians.
So, the same way I wouldn't be like, yeah, yeah, I'm a Christian.
They would be like, you know, there's tons of Christians in Denmark by name, right?
It's a Christian country.
But you go and you're like, oh, no, definitely not a Christian country.
This is a very secular country and culture.
So, and like Muslims are a large group of people, they're all defined by their following of Islam, but they're very different.
So, they're like Indonesian Muslims is different than Turkish Muslims.
Turkish Muslims are different than Malaysian Muslims.
So they're all very different and they can't be grouped into one, you know.
There's a cultural aspect to the religion.
Yeah, there's elements of Islam that certain Muslims carry.
They have to be like, and it has elements of peacefulness in it, but they have to, it's a huge difference from the jihadist, militant jihadist Muslims.
So, you can't, we can't lump them together.
So, if people say that, I agree with them.
I would say, I would say Islam is still a false religion.
Yes.
It's, they don't follow the true God, but not all Muslims are the same.
So, right.
No, I agree.
I think the vast majority of Muslims, as far as I can tell, are peaceful people.
And yet, I would say that the outlier, and just to be fair, I don't think that the outlier is quite as much of an outlier as we have within Christianity, at least today.
Today, yeah, there are some examples of violent Christians, but they're really few and far between.
Whereas when it comes to Islam, present time today, it's not like it's just one in a million or a needle in a haystack.
There's a lot of violent Muslims.
I'm still willing to say that it's not the majority.
But it's certainly a higher percentage.
I feel completely confident saying there's a higher percentage of violent Muslims today than there are violent Christians today.
Oh, 100%.
And I think my whole point is to say, you know, so that's not fair to say all Muslims.
But would you call them Christians, though?
Like, I'm like.
Well, yeah, yeah.
You know what I mean?
So, what I should say.
But I know what you mean.
Yeah.
But what I should say is just professing.
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I mean.
In terms of professing Christians.
So, even among professing Christians who you raised a great point, you and I would both say, well, that person's probably not regenerate.
At the end of the day, we don't have election goggles, and so we don't know for sure, but we can look at the fruit of a person.
Jesus speaks to that.
And so we could say, yeah, I don't even think that person is a Christian.
But what I'm saying is just those who would bear the name, those who would profess, although, like you said, not necessarily possess salvation, but they would profess.
And so, with professing Christians, Even which would be broader than those who are actually true Christians, it still would be a sliver.
It would be a serious minority that would be violent.
And yet, within Islam, although yes, millions of peaceful Muslims and perhaps still a minority of those who are violent, it's still a, we have to be honest in saying it's not just a needle in a haystack, it's not just a sliver.
It may be a minority, but it's a much significantly larger percentage.
And I'll tell you one thing is that.
I say that there are lots of peaceful Muslims.
But for example, my mom went back to Iran, I don't remember, many years back now, but she was a Christian and her family knew that she was a Christian.
So, these are our family members.
So, her brother and one of her brothers didn't even want to touch her because she's unclean now.
Didn't hug her after years of not seeing her.
So, because he's upset that she's converted.
So, that's one thing, too, where now he's not going to kill her, but he is disgusted.
Okay.
So, that's another thing where you're like, wow, like that is really severe way of treating people, family, right?
That's a doctrine in, you know, In the Quran and Islam, that is not violent but very aggressive towards apostasy.
Now, if someone walked away from Christianity, we would pray for them, we would be sorrowful, we wouldn't want to kill them.
Right.
So, her and then, you wouldn't be disgusted by it because I think what's key is that you mentioned like he didn't want to touch her, you know, like she's unclean, he's disgusted.
Yeah.
Because if you just said, you know, he didn't want to interact with her, then again, I would play the devil's advocate and push back and say that, well, we do have to have.
Aggressive Apostasy Doctrines00:02:54
Verse in the New Testament that for those who profess, they claim to be a brother, right, but they've denied the truth, they're apostate, they've walked away, do not even share a meal.
And so there is, you know, and so there is Christian doctrine.
So that's my point.
I want to be as fair to the subject as possible and say that, yes, we do have Old Testament texts where God tells Israel to commit genocide, you know, and we do have even New Testament texts that take sin very seriously with excommunication.
And actually, one of the ways that we teach someone repentance, we're used as an at the end of the day, repentance is a gift that comes from God.
He either grants it or he doesn't.
But one of the ways that God uses his people, the church, as an agent in granting repentance is by the church obeying New Testament commands and withdrawing, intentionally withdrawing relationship and community from the impenitent sinner in such a way that they are taught to be ashamed, is what Paul says elsewhere.
And so there is that kind of language, but nowhere is there this sense of, and we withdraw that relationship because we're disgusted by you.
No, no, no.
It's always love for you, it's just tough.
Love, just like the father who spanks his child.
It's not like, hey, I've been loving you, but at this point, I've got to stop loving you.
Now I have to spank you.
No, we never stop loving you.
If we get to that point, we're still well underneath the banner of love.
It's just another form of love.
It's tough love.
And it's probably harder for you as a Christian to not show that love to that person.
It's hard to do that, right?
It breaks your heart.
But to them, it's like, you're an animal now.
We don't touch pigs, we don't touch you.
That's the same kind of equal.
That's how Allah sees basically unbelievers, right?
And so that day, the next day, my mom's brother's wife called her and said, Well, why don't we go to these mullahs or whatever they're called to kind of have a discussion to see if they can, you know, convince you?
Knowing full well that if my mom went to the government, basically those mullahs, and if that mullah was a crazy one that would, that was a fanatic one that would be super offended that she had apostatized.
She could be imprisoned.
So, yes, they are family, they're peace loving for the most part, but they would go to the length of having you be imprisoned for apostatizing.
So, that to me is a little bit like maybe not everybody would do that still because there's a lot of nominal Muslims.
Right.
But do you know what I mean?
So, there's those really aggressive ways.
It's the same thing that I said earlier bug versus feature.
Another way of saying it is there are many peaceful Muslims because there are many nominal Muslims.
Exactly.
And that's a big, that's a profound statement.
Courage for Christians Today00:02:12
Whereas you and I, if we turned and pointed our sights on Christianity, we'd say there are a few violent Christians because there are some crazy Christians.
There are some violent Christians because there are some unfaithful Christians.
A fair amount of violent Muslims because there are a fair amount of committed.
Because that's what we would say.
I think it's.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Where you find a violent Christian, you find someone who's gotten off the rails.
Where you find a violent Muslim, you find someone who is really true to the text.
Yeah.
True to the text.
Exactly.
All right.
Any final thoughts?
We got to go ahead and wrap up.
Anything else you'd like to say?
No, that's good.
Okay.
So, how can our listeners.
Um, how can they be praying for you and how can they follow you and keep up with your online ministry?
Um, I'm basically just on Instagram right now.
Um, that's great, biblical and reform.
That's it.
Cool, okay.
Anything that our listeners can be praying for?
Um, yeah, for just for the Canadian government to really be, yeah, um, aligned with the truth because it's getting really, um, really harsh here now, unfortunately.
You know, with courage for Christians, and yeah, yeah, courage for Christians in the meantime.
Yeah, James Coates is uh one of our guests, um, as well with this show that we'll be all night, we'll be doing soon.
So, yeah, that Canada's getting crazy, especially for Christians.
So, yeah, we'll be praying for um the civil magistrates in Canada and also praying for uh perseverance and courage for the Christians in the midst of that.
So, thanks uh so much, Hasty, for coming on this show.
I really appreciate it.
Me too.
Thank you for having me.
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