Theology Applied hosts condemn Bethel, Hillsong, and Elevation music, arguing these groups fail biblical church criteria by harboring heresy rather than orthodox doctrine. They label the songs a "gateway drug" that lures believers into false systems and criticize even non-heretical tracks as theologically anemic. A controversial bonus reason highlights financial complicity through licensing royalties, comparing supporting these entities to funding Planned Parenthood due to their alleged promotion of eternal death. Ultimately, the episode defines a true church via Calvin's word-centric model, rejecting exclusive psalm singing as unbiblical for restricting musical canon without equivalent exegetical rigor. [Automatically generated summary]
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Why Bethel and Hillsong Are Cults00:07:24
In this episode, I have the privilege of sitting down with a returning guest, Justin Peters, to discuss three reasons why you should stop using Bethel and Hillsong music in your church.
The three reasons are as follows.
Number one, Bethel and Hillsong are not true churches.
Number two, by using Bethel and Hillsong music in your church, you are subjecting weaker believers to heresy.
And number three, even the non blatantly heretical songs by Institutions like Bethel and Hillsong are not scripturally and theologically robust enough to combat the heresy and idolatry that exist in our hearts.
This is the second part of actually a two part series.
In this episode, we'll be addressing those last two reasons reason two and reason number three.
Hope you enjoy.
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
If you don't mind, could you use?
There was an analogy that I heard you use.
I think it was on Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.
And it was so good.
It was strong.
And I don't want to steal the punchline, but you were basically saying, we don't want to use music that comes out of these two institutions.
We'll call them institutions because they're not churches.
And then you named another institution.
What if this institution that Christians know good and well that commits murder?
There's the hint.
What if they wrote a worship song?
Would we play that in our churches?
Do you remember what I'm talking about?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I sure do.
And I caught a lot of flack for it, but I stand by it and I'll double down on it.
Okay.
So, and then this kind of is related to another point that I guess we'll get to.
I guess we could throw it in here now the financial aspect of this.
So, according to the CCLI, Agreements, licensing agreements.
If a church is doing what they should be doing, then every time a church sings a Bethel song or a Hillsong song or an Elevation song, they're supposed to be sending in money to these respective institutions.
You know, these respective, as I've referred to them, goat farms because they're not churches.
They're supposed to be sending money into these organizations.
Okay, so you're enriching every time you sing one of their songs on a Sunday morning, you're sending in some money to these cults.
And the point I make here is this.
All right, so they use their music as one of their main revenue streams and one of the main ways that they broaden their tents and bring people into their cultish theological system.
So now the argument is well, some of their songs, the lyrics are okay.
You know, some of their songs have good sound.
Doctrinally sound lyrics.
And you know what?
They do.
Some of them do.
Now, a lot of them don't, but some of them do.
I would admit some of their lyrics will pass a doctrinal smell test.
And so, as long as the doctrine's okay and lyrics are okay, then it's no problem singing these songs.
Well, here's the problem.
Let's use this analogy.
Let's suppose, and we'll illustrate absurdity by being absurd, but it makes a point.
Let's suppose that Planned Parenthood.
Had a board meeting and they said, You know, guys, we really need to bring in some more money to our organization.
And does anybody have any ideas?
And the guy at the round at the table, you know, he said, Oh, I got an idea.
Okay, what's your idea?
Well, how about let's do this?
Let's write some Christian music and we'll make the lyrics pass a doctrinal smell test because we know the Christians won't sing songs that are just completely outlandish.
So let's write some Christian music and we'll make the lyrics pass a doctrinal smell test and we'll sell it to the churches.
That way, every time all these evangelical churches sing one of our songs, they're going to be sending us some money.
So here's my question Would you.
If you knew that the music you were singing, the song you were singing on a Sunday morning, even though it had good lyrics, if you knew that your church was sending in some money every time you sang one of those songs to Planned Parenthood, would you sing it?
And I dare say that 99.99% of evangelicals would say, No, no, we're not.
I wouldn't sing that song.
I don't care how good the lyrics are.
I'm not sending money to Planned Parenthood.
Rightly so.
I would submit that by sending in, by singing Hillsong and Elevation and Bethel music, when you send it, when you sing their song and you send them money, I would submit that that is worse than the illustration of Planned Parenthood because you are sending in money to a cult.
You are sending in money to a cult that preaches a different Jesus and a different gospel that is leading millions upon millions of people.
Straight down the primrose path to hell.
Planned Parenthood is horrific, horrific.
They murder babies, but they're lost.
They're lost.
Lost people do what lost people do.
Doesn't excuse it.
They will give an account one day.
But Bethel and Hillsong and Elevation, they claim to be Christians.
And I would argue that what they are doing is worse than what Planned Parenthood is doing.
Because they are blaspheming Christ, bringing reproach on the name of Christ, falsely prophesying in the name of Christ, preaching a false Jesus and a false gospel, and leading people to hell under the supposed banner of Christ.
So, if there's anything worse than Planned Parenthood, it's that.
And a lot of people really bristled and they didn't like that, but I stand by it and I would just defy anyone to biblically show me where that logic breaks down.
Yep.
And if not, just for the sake of argument, if not morally, More heinous.
One of the big things that you're arguing is that the result, the effect, is more heinous because you're talking about ultimately the end with Planned Parenthood.
You're talking about physical murder, so the end of the physical life.
But in the case of false churches that are preaching damnable doctrine, you're not just talking about the end of physical life, but you're ultimately talking about leading people to hell.
So you're talking about eternal death.
And so I think it's a fair point, but I think that's really helpful to.
Because a lot of people just probably aren't aware of that.
Maybe some pastors are listening to this episode.
They may not be aware that if they're doing what they're actually supposed to be doing, there are royalties.
Somebody writes a song and you don't just get to use it for free.
Leading Believers to Eternal Death00:08:34
And so it is that financial support.
So there's kind of three big reasons that I wanted to discuss with you why churches shouldn't use Hillsong of Bethel music for worship.
And so the first one is they're not churches, they're not true churches.
They're preaching and supporting heresy.
And so we don't want our worship music to come from heretics.
And so that's the first reason.
The next two reasons that we're going to get to are actually different than the financial reason you brought.
So, we'll call that, if nothing else, we'll call that our fourth bonus reason, because I wasn't even really thinking about that, but that's a really good point.
That not only are one reason that these aren't true churches, another reason is that by utilizing their music in a worship service on Sunday, your church is actually supporting the prosperity gospel.
In the same way that you would support a missionary, it's like our church, you could say that.
You could say, what ministries does your church support?
Will we support this missionary in Zambia?
And we also support Bill Johnson and Hillsong.
And it's like, wait a second.
So, that's a really, I think that's a really strong and really well made argument.
So, real quick, before we move on from these aren't churches, if anybody's listening, then what is a church?
What constitutes a church?
One quote by John Calvin that I think is, you know, it's simple and helpful.
You know, the scripture, first and foremost, would say, you know, that 1 Timothy, that the church is the pillar and the buttress of the truth.
And so, the church isn't just, first and foremost, the church isn't just a place to love people, help people, those things matter.
We want to love our brothers and sisters in real tangible ways.
James talks about that.
1 John talks about that.
You know, you can't just wish them well and say, be warmed and well fed.
You know, so the church does love and care for people and meet tangible needs.
But first and foremost, the church is the pillar and buttress of the truth.
It is a gospel preaching and a law preaching, a Bible preaching church.
It is a beacon of truth in a dark world.
And so the church is the pillar and buttress of the truth.
And with that, John Calvin, you know, said this that, That anywhere the word of God is rightly preached and the sacraments are rightly administered, there a church of God exists, even if it swarms with many faults.
And so we would say that no matter how sweet the people might be, and no matter how many Bible verses, you can use a lot of Bible verses.
Satan used a lot of Bible verses, but that doesn't mean you're using them rightly.
And so Calvin emphasizes the right preaching of the word and the right administration of the sacraments, or for the Baptists out there that doesn't like the word sacrament, the ordinances of the Lord's Supper and baptism.
And so wherever this is happening, The people, you know, Calvin even, you know, he even adds, even if it swarms with many faults, if these two things, right preaching, right administering, and so really what it comes down to is the ordinary means of grace.
And the ordinary means of grace, just for the listener, I would, you know, most guys would boil them down to four.
We preach the word, we pray the word, we sing the word, and we see, S E E, see the word as it were, not in a literal sense, but we see the word, we get a glimpse of the word in the sacrament of baptism.
And the Lord's Supper.
And so that's what this Lord's Day hour is for.
And I think part of the problem, Hillsong and Bethel, is really just the far reaching implications of a problem that starts a lot closer to home, which is getting away from the regular principle of worship.
That we just think we have a lot more creative license when it comes to our Lord's Day gathering of the saints and worship than we actually do.
And so if anybody was kind of listening to this and it's like, all right, you told us.
What false doctrines are they preaching, and that helps to know why they're not churches.
But what is a working, a simple working definition of what's the biblical criteria for a true church?
What makes a church a church?
And Justin and I would both say, wherever in Matthew 18, wherever you have two or three, so in terms of size, you don't even have to have a lot according to Jesus.
If you have two or three true confessors like Peter, blessed are you, Simon of Jonah, flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven.
So they've had a God given divine revelation that doesn't come from man, it can't be conjured, it's not of the flesh.
But God has revealed to them the person and work of Jesus Christ, and they've confessed it with their mouth and believed in their hearts.
So they are true confessors who have made a true confession, and they have covenanted with God, but also with one another, to being faithful, to fulfill the Great Commission, to go baptize, disciple, and teach.
We always forget the last part teach others to obey all of Christ's commands and to covenant in doing this together as a community, a family of believers.
We would say that.
Technically, that could constitute a church.
It may not be the best church, but if you're on the mission field, the first thing you've got to do is the work of an evangelist, right?
You preach and you hope that the Spirit works with the faithful preaching of God's word to convert souls.
As soon as you've got another soul that's converted, you're ready to plant a church, technically.
And then eventually, as people develop and they grow, then you want to look to people who are biblically qualified to be elders.
And then those people should be teaching and not everybody else because it's not we're getting in a circle and everybody takes five minutes to share.
No.
Those who are trained and those who are qualified are teaching God's word publicly.
But that's what it means to be a church.
There's a public preaching of the word, and it's faithful.
It's right preaching.
There's a public praying of the word.
There's singing of the word.
So the songs we're singing are word centric, not just, oh, well, that technically didn't have any heresy in it.
No, it's saturated in the word.
And then we're seeing the word in the Lord's Supper and the baptism.
So a church is all about the word, it's word centric, and it's a right use of the word.
Whether it's preaching or whether it's singing or whether it's praying or whatever it may be.
And so, what we're saying, Justin and I, is that these churches of Hillsong and Bethel, the word isn't even close to being central in their ethos, in their community.
The word is rarely anywhere to be found.
And even if it is, it's not the right preaching of the word, the right use of the word.
The word could be found on Satan's lips, but that doesn't make him a Christian or a pastor.
Is there anything else you would want to add to that, Justin?
A church is by definition, those the called out ones, the ecclesia, those have been called out from darkness to light, from death to life, from sin to newness of life in Christ, the people of God.
And there are very few.
Let me say this there is a smattering.
Sometimes I'm asked, are there any true Christians in these churches?
There would be a smattering of some very young believers, possibly.
Mm hmm.
But they would have to be very young believers, very immature, because in all likelihood, saved not because of what they've been hearing, but in spite of what they've been hearing.
So you might find a few immature, genuine believers.
But the thing is, is that we all start off as baby Christians.
But the thing about babies is that babies don't stay babies, babies grow up, babies mature.
And so you would find a A grand sum total of zero mature believers in these churches.
Zero.
Because if you're a mature believer, you're not going to be in a false church.
Mature believers don't worship in false churches.
No, you're right.
It's the same.
It's very similar to Catholicism.
Like people ask all the time, like, so are you saying that there are no Christians in Catholic churches?
And I always answer by saying, I think there are plenty of Christians in Catholic churches.
A Christian in the Catholic Church is what I would call a bad Catholic.
A good Catholic, and when I say a good Catholic, I mean somebody who's fully prescribed to Catholic teaching, is not going to be a Christian because Catholic teaching contradicts with it.
And so, in the same way, a bad Bethelite or a bad Hillsonger, you know, aka somebody who isn't really prescribed to everything and they're just immature in their faith, they could, you're right, they could absolutely be a Christian.
Exposing Wolves in Sheep's Clothing00:05:37
And maturity, maturing in their faith, one of the things that Jesus is going to lead them in is he's going to lead them.
Output transcript Out of that church.
And their maturity is obedience.
And so will they obey?
If they're really mature, they'll obey Christ.
And eventually that's one of the things that in their study of the word is going to become clear to them.
And so maturity in Christ will lead them out.
So I completely agree with you.
So the second reason that churches, local churches, shouldn't use Hillsong or Bethel in their churches is kind of the gateway drug, the rabbit trail, the hook that leads people, you know, they're singing the song and they see that fine print.
Right.
And so, Justin, can you talk about that?
Yeah.
Bill Johnson has admitted that they use their music as one of their primary evangelistic tools.
That's how they broaden their tent.
That's how they bring people into their heretical theological system by their music.
And the way it works is quite simply this the unsuspecting person sitting in the pew on a Sunday morning and they're looking up at the screen, reading the lyrics for the song.
And they're singing the song, and they see in the fine print down at the bottom, they'll say, 'Music by Bethel or Music by Hillsong.' And they think, 'Oh, Bethel, oh, Hillsong.' Well, they must be okay.
We're singing their music, so I think I'll check them out.
And so that is how they suck in people.
One of the primary ways that they bring people in to their cult is by their music and the unsuspecting person out there.
Seeing that, singing the song rightly would assume that these churches, quote unquote, must be okay because we're singing their music.
Right.
And yeah, I always just cringe when I go to a church and they throw up a Hillsong song on the screen or Bethel music.
You know, I just absolutely cringe because these churches are exposing.
I mean, I'm talking about the good churches that will sing, the good churches that sing this bad music.
They're.
Whether willingly or inadvertently, they are exposing their flock to the wolves.
They're exposing their sheep to the wolves.
And one of the primary responsibilities of a pastor, of an elder, is to protect the flock from the wolves.
And so by singing this music, we're not protecting our flocks from the wolves, we're exposing them to the wolves.
We're inviting them to go into the wolves' lair.
And so that is one of the primary objections that I have with singing Bethel or Elevation or Halo Song.
You're right.
I like what you said.
We're exposing them to wolves.
And then I know you would agree with this.
I would go even further and say, as bad as that is, a shepherd exposing his own flock of sheep to wolves, it's even worse because you're exposing them to wolves without identifying that they're wolves.
So you're exposing them to wolves that don't look like wolves.
That are wolves that are dressed in sheep's clothing, you know, that Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
And you're exposing them to this angel of light, to these wolves in sheep's clothing.
Even you're not even giving them the heads up.
Hey, so today during our worship service, we're going to give you a lot of good doctrine.
We're going to give you sheep some good water to drink, some green grass.
We're going to make sure you lie down, you get some rest, and you're going to have a good time.
This is going to be good for your soul.
It's going to be pleasing to the Lord.
But we are going for a brief moment, about four to five minutes, we're going to go pass by a den of wolves over here.
You know, you're not even doing that.
I mean, that still would be absurd.
It's like, why?
Why?
Let's just leave the wolves out of it.
Let's not do a wolf.
Let's just stick to the green grass and the still waters and the lying down and the things that are good for sheep.
But you're not even doing that.
You're not just doing, like, hey, we're going to walk by some wolves and you're going to get a view of wolves.
You're doing that while not even pointing out that they are wolves.
So they see those wolves for five minutes and then they go home and they're like, hey, I'm going to go check that out.
That was kind of neat.
That cave over there and that animal looked like, I think it was a sheep and it must have been a sheep because my pastor wouldn't have had me go up and shake its hand if it wasn't.
I'm going to go and have dinner at that sheep's house this week, aka I'm going to listen to all this music.
But it's not just that.
I mean, how do people look up music?
A lot of times it's YouTube, and that's how people are finding us, me and you in this video right now.
But people go on YouTube, and it's not just music, it's music, music, and then it's teaching, or it's what is it, Hillsong TV, and you go on there, and it's like song, song, song, Joyce Meyer teaching, song, song, and.
Yeah, so it's just, it's playing with fire.
It's not protecting.
It's kind of like with a baby pin, a baby pin with a rattle and a baby doll and a snake.
Let's just go ahead and remove the snake.
It's like, well, the baby pin's still really good and the snake's in the corner and the snake's not in the center of the pin.
It's like, but can't we just have a snake free baby pin?
Playing with Fire Over Worship00:15:46
Can't that just be a standard?
I think that's a reasonable principle for baby pins no snakes.
Not even little ones, not even in the corner, just no snakes.
And so I'm with you.
So, our first reason is Bethel and Hillsong aren't true churches.
And second reason is not only are they not true churches, but it's a hook.
What phrase do you use?
I keep saying gateway drug.
I don't know.
How do you describe it?
It's the hook that they use to pull people into their heretical theological system.
That's right.
You were saying it's their main tool of evangelism, I think is what you said.
Is that right?
Yep.
Main tool of evangelism, main outreach.
Beach is their music.
Yeah.
Yep.
Absolutely.
So, third reason that I had here, and you might have another bonus reason that you might be thinking of, but the third reason I had was just saying that I think it might have been D.A. Carson who said this back in the day, and I liked it.
And once you say it enough, then you can say, you know, as I always say, but I'll give him credit because I know I got it from someone.
It wasn't me, but I think he said that, you know, there are worship songs that may not be heretical.
Objectively in their lyrics, but their lyrics are so theologically anemic that it doesn't combat the heresy that's already in my heart.
And I thought that was really good, just saying that even as Christians, we're sinners, sinners saved by grace.
But every Christian, every step of the way, but especially younger Christians in the Lord, we're walking into the church on the Lord's day with preconceived notions about Christ.
About God the Father, about the Holy Spirit, about the Christian life, about the law of God, about the gospel of God that are wrong.
Right?
None of us have perfect theology.
And so, even for myself as a pastor, and for you as an evangelist who travels and teaches the Bible all over the world, there are still holes in our doctrine and things that we don't have a full, proper understanding of, and some things that we might have even a wrong understanding of.
And so, that doesn't make us a heretic per se, but there are certain things where, you know, we're like, and not even that, but just the prone to wonder.
You know, which I think is a great song to use in worship.
The hymn, you know, like, prone to wonder, Lord, I feel it, prone to leave the God I love.
And that's the reality.
And not just for the unregenerate, but even for the Christian, the fight for faith is a fight.
Faith is not static, it's not the default position.
So even for the Christian, it's like pilgrim's progress, right?
It's a journey, it's uphill, it's a battle, and it doesn't come easy.
And so, With all the wrong preconceived notions and just the idolatry in our hearts.
So, even if it's not heresy necessarily in our heart, there's idolatry in our hearts, things that we love and cherish and trust in as Christians.
I'm speaking to the Christian in that moment more than Christ.
And so, on the Lord's Day, when we're singing, I don't just need songs that are heresy free.
I need songs that are just like I need sermons and everything else and prayers.
I need prayers, sermons, and songs that are nutrient dense.
That are packed with, not just that are heresy free or idolatry free, but they're packed with the nutrients that expel the heresy and the idolatry and the sin that I've already got in my heart, that I already, that I'm showing up to church not just to, because if not, then why am I even, what's the point?
I'm showing up to church not just to leave the same way I came in, I'm showing up to hear a word from God and for it to, to, Begin to expel rather the sin in my heart.
And so I just think there's so much better music.
So, could you, with that, like what are some of the standards?
I guess this is kind of maybe more of a personal question, but what are kind of the standards that you would hold for the worship music that a church should use?
What makes the cut?
How do you determine that?
Yeah, it's well, it's the lyrics have got to be.
I mean, this might be an overused phrase, but doctrinally sound, they've got to be.
Deep.
They've got to be rich.
Read the lyrics of some of our hymns, like How and Can It Be?
Read those lyrics.
They're profound.
They're deep.
They point to God.
They don't point to me.
They're not shallow.
And that's what you see with so much of the contemporary stuff that's coming out today.
Not all of it, but most of it.
It may not be blatantly heretical.
I mean, you're not going to see a A song from Bethel or Hill song that teaches, like, you know, the little God's doctrine or something like that directly.
But the lyrics are so many of their songs.
Well, a lot of them have a romanticized view of Jesus.
You know, it's a lot of their songs you could sing to your boyfriend or your girlfriend and it would fit right in.
But they're very weak, anemic.
So look for doctrinally sound, deep, Rich, vertically oriented lyrics.
Lyrics that point to God, extol Him, exalt Him, talk about His attributes, who He is.
Yeah, and there's so much to choose from.
I mean, you've got the Grace Hymnal book, and even some of this contemporary stuff, like the Gettys, for example, or Sovereign Grace music that they put out.
That's good stuff.
So I don't believe that the canon has been closed on music writing.
I don't believe that.
If you're, if the song you're singing is not 300 years old and it's not a good, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't hold to that.
There is some good stuff that's still being written today, but, uh, but there's a lot of bad stuff out there too.
And so look for meaty, look for meat.
You know, you want, that's good.
You want meat in your preaching and you should want it in your, in your worship as well.
Music part of worship, I should say.
No, that's really good.
I like how you said that the vertical, um, vertical songs.
And you're right.
It's like some of the songs, Again, it's not necessarily heretical, but I remember there was some song that we were singing at a church when I was younger.
And it was, this was probably, oh, it was a church I was visiting.
And it was like, You make me brave.
You make me.
And it was just like, it felt like an hour, you know, but it was several minutes, I believe, of just repeating, You make me brave.
And I don't even, first, I just don't even know what that means.
I don't know what scripture you would point to.
But I mean, there is a, the righteous are as bold as lions.
There you go.
There's a scripture.
Right?
So there, But the emphasis wasn't on you.
It was on me, what you make me, me now being brave.
So it's just like for three minutes, maybe that's an exaggeration, but at least a minute or two, literally just, you make me brave.
You make me brave on repeat.
It's just anemic, no meat, no substance.
And yeah, I mean, I could defend that statement.
Christ makes us brave.
But even that would be an improvement, but it's not.
I'm very certain I remember this much.
It wasn't Christ makes me brave.
Even that I would have problems with because it's just let's stop singing about me.
Let's just sing about Christ.
But it's so it's me centered.
It's not vertical, but it wasn't even Christ makes me brave.
It's you make me brave.
Like you said, it's something that I could turn around and sing to another person.
I could sing to my wife.
I could put that as a part of a renewing of my marriage vows.
And it's just so.
So, I'm with you.
So, last kind of question, because I know I don't want to keep you too much longer, but I'm curious.
I know your position because we've already been talking about it, but I have to admit, I'm kind of fascinated.
I disagree with it, and I'll tell you why in a moment, but I am fascinated and I do appreciate and respect guys like Robert Godfrey, Rosario Butterfield, the exclusive psalm singing crew.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Where we only sing psalms, no hymns.
It could be 500 years old.
Doesn't matter.
We sing the Psalms.
And they would argue, you know, like, I believe it's Ephesians.
Maybe it's Colossians.
What is the text that says Psalms, hymns, and spiritual Psalms?
Spiritual Psalms.
Yeah.
What, yeah?
Which, do you remember the red?
Colossians 3.
Yeah, Colossians 3.
Yeah, Colossians 3.
So they would look at that and say those are three different categories, subcategories of the Psalter, the book of Psalms.
Are you familiar with this position?
Robert Godfrey, Rosario Butterfield.
So what do you, I know that's not your position.
It's not my position.
And I have a few reasons why, but I want to get to you first.
Because I mean, that would make it real simple, right?
We don't have any problems, you know.
So, why would you, what would be your pushback to only singing the Psalms?
Yeah.
Well, I guess kind of goes back to what I said a minute ago.
I just don't believe that the canon of writing vertically oriented God, Christ exalting music is closed.
I love to sing the Psalms, but I don't think that we have a biblical mandate to only do that.
I don't think Colossians 3 in any way, in any shape, form, or fashion negates.
Writing music.
You know, God has some believers have the gift or where they want to call it talent or gift of writing music and they do so in a beautiful way.
Again, the Gettys, Sovereign Grace.
I'm not a music expert.
I'm not a musician by any stretch of the imagination.
But I see no mandate from scripture that we have to sing only the Psalms.
I like to do it, all about doing it.
I don't think you have to say that it's got to be that and only that.
I agree with you.
There was an interview I listened to once with Rosario Butterfield, which I'm really grateful for her.
I'd love to have her on the show sometime, but an awesome woman of God.
I believe her husband is a pastor in the OPC Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and God's used her immensely.
But I remember she was being questioned on exclusive psalm singing, which is her position.
And the answer that she gave was she said, kind of like what I was saying earlier the heresy in my heart, the idolatry in my heart, the sin in my heart, you know.
Calvin again, you know, the heart is an idol making factory, and I need the pure, unadulterated word of God on the Lord's day being sung to expel that, you know.
So she kind of emphasized, I'm because I'm such a wretch, because I'm so sinful, I need.
And the guy who is interviewing her who did not hold that position, his pushback was, Well, what about preaching?
What is a sermon, but it's an exposition, it's expounding on the word of God, right?
We don't, with a sermon, we don't get up for 45 to 60 minutes.
And read verbatim scripture.
Today's sermon is the book of Hebrews from start to finish without any exposition.
And that's not, and so I would just say back to the ordinary means of grace, the four main ordinary means of grace on the Lord's day when we gather together for worship, preaching the word, praying the word, singing the word, and seeing the word.
If preaching allows for exposition, right?
It's word century, it's an exposition of the word, but there is an exposition.
If prayer is expounded, you know, we want to pray.
Not, we don't want to pray the flesh, we don't want to pray the thoughts and opinions of man, we want to pray the word.
But in our prayer, when we pray, we don't just say, All right, so the prayer that I've selected today is going to be a word for word reading of Psalm 119.
No, like we can pray for things that are currently going on in our world today and rulers and things like that without it having to be a verbatim quote of scripture, but it's still word centric because the scripture tells us to pray about those things and we're going to pray about those things in scriptural ways.
And so when we preach, it's not Just verbatim quoting scripture.
When we pray, it's not verbatim quoting scripture.
So, I guess my question to the exclusive psalm singer would be how come with the ordinary means of grace, how come with preaching, it's not verbatim scripture, praying is not verbatim scripture, but when we get to singing the word, this one has to be verbatim scripture.
So, I was saying the same way that a good sermon, a good faithful sermon, is expounding on a text.
Man, if a guy is writing a song and his view of writing music is an exposition of a text, Simply put to music for us to say.
I don't have any reason to say you can't do that without using that same logic to get rid of the sermon I plan to preach that Sunday.
You know what I mean?
So that's kind of the pushback that I would give to it.
But that being said, I really do think, I really do believe that our worship music should feel, it should be just as exegetical and robust as a good expositional sermon.
So the same kind of sermon standards, I guess maybe we could say it like this the same kind of standards that we would have for a good expositional preaching of the Word of God, I think we should have very similar standards for a good expositional.
Expositional singing of the word of God.
Would you agree with that?
Yep, I would.
I would.
Absolutely.
The depth of our music should be commensurate with the depth of our preaching.
Amen.
Anything big picture, so it doesn't have to be on this particular topic, but anything and what we've talked about now that you want to add just a last thought or two with?
Well, God is the object of our worship, right?
And we should bring our best to Him.
He must be worshiped in spirit and in truth.
John chapter 4.
And so I cannot imagine that the king of the universe would be pleased with us singing music that comes from people who preach a different king and who demote the king, try to take the king off of his throne.
So, yeah, this is very serious.
We have an audience of one, we've got one person that we've got to please.
And God is the object of our worship.
And so it's not about us, it's not about how we feel, it's not about our preferences.
It's not about how music makes us feel.
And so, I mean, yeah, I mean, you can, some of these songs, they might engage your emotions and they might give you little goosebumps on your arms or whatever.
They don't mean, but I guess some people they do.
But that's not what worship is.
Worship is not about how you feel.
Worship is vertically oriented to God and it's got to please Him.
We've got to worship in spirit and in truth.
That's right.
Amen.
Funding Heresy Through Music00:02:16
Well, in summary, our three reasons that we cited for not using Bethel Hillsong will throw elevation in there also.
In your Lord's Day worship with your churches, one, they come from organizations, institutions that are not churches themselves.
They don't meet the biblical criteria for being true Orthodox churches.
Two, it's a gateway, it's a hook that ultimately it's not being a faithful shepherd protecting the sheep, it leads them astray.
They begin to, hey, I like that song.
They check out the ministry and they start listening to the teaching.
So it can lead sheep astray.
Three, Was it's just, it's theologically anemic.
So even if it's not blatantly heretical, it's not deep, it's not vertical, it's not expositional, it's not robust and theological.
So it doesn't combat the sin that's already in our hearts.
And kind of our bonus reason that we added towards the beginning of the episode that Justin added was that in a very literal and practical sense, you are financially funding these organizations, Bethel and Hillsong, when you use their music in public worship.
So that's it.
Those are our reasons.
Justin, thanks so much for coming on the show.
I really appreciate it.
You're welcome, brother.
You're welcome.
God bless you.
Any way that our people can follow you, keep up with you?
Yeah, I have a website, justinpeters.org.
And so they can find out more about me and my ministry, justinpeters.org.
I have a YouTube channel.
I'm pretty active on that, put videos out fairly regularly.
And Justin Peters Ministries Facebook page as well.
Okay, thanks.
Appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, Joel.
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