Pastor Joel Webbin and Pastor Doug Wilson analyze the mass exodus of Christians from California to Texas, driven by a desire for greater religious freedom and economic viability. They debate whether fleeing persecution aligns with biblical mandates or if men should prioritize four-generation family responsibilities in "purple" states where cultural battles remain undecided. The conversation highlights how governmental mismanagement in blue states penalizes hard work while warning that unchecked migration could shift red states toward purple, ultimately questioning if these internal evangelical divisions over CRT and COVID-19 will cause long-time faithful members to abandon their churches soon. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
Time
Text
Leaving California in Obedience00:05:33
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
This is Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
And today I have a very special guest.
We have Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho, joining us.
And we were actually going to be talking about tone and the importance of presentation in content.
I think what we're saying really matters, but how we say it matters also.
So we're going to go that route.
Um, but kind of last minute, I'm throwing an audible and, uh, Doug is gracious enough to oblige.
So we're going to actually talk about, um, what we're seeing, I think right now in 2020 is a mass exodus out of blue states into red states.
Uh, I'm currently in California at the end of this year.
My family and I and about, um, close to 20 other adults are going to be leaving the response church in San Diego, California.
We're going to be going to Texas, where I was born and raised, uh, to plant, Lord willing, a new church and, uh, and try to experience, um, more freedom.
More protection of our rights and ultimately try to produce more for the Lord Jesus Christ and soil that we think might be a little bit more fertile and might yield a better crop.
And so Doug's done a lot of work on this.
He was actually influential for me personally in a conversation that I got to have with him over breakfast in Moscow earlier this year.
And he was urging me to go to leave California.
And that was before COVID 19 even was on the scene.
So I assume that his opinion has probably only increased.
So without further ado, Pastor Doug Wilson, could you tell us just a little bit about yourself, introduce yourself, and we'll go ahead and get started?
Sure.
My name is Douglas Wilson.
I'm the senior minister at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho.
Those of you who know what Idaho looks like, it doesn't look like Iowa.
It's not Iowa.
Idaho has a panhandle up north, and that's where we live.
We live up in the chimney of Idaho.
And I've been the pastor here for 40 years.
Plus, so I've been here for a long time.
And I write and I blog and do other stuff.
So that's the main thing.
Great.
You write, you blog, you pastor, and you get into trouble.
I feel like that should be on your resume.
Yes, but that's what the other people do.
I get in trouble, but it's the other people who get me into trouble.
That's right.
It's not weather, but which.
Okay, so let's go ahead and start with this.
This is kind of a softball.
Tee it up for you, but what are just, let's go on both sides before we, you know, make a strong argument either way, just to be fair to both positions, both sets of convictions.
What are some good reasons for a Christian to stay in a state like California at this time?
And what are some good reasons for a Christian to consider leaving California?
What would you say?
So the first thing I would say is that you can't come up with a one size fits all scenario.
In other words, When Sodom was going to be destroyed, God wanted everybody to leave, right?
Everybody's supposed to leave.
That's not the case necessarily in times of cultural disarray, which is what this is.
So, what we're dealing with is not fire from heaven or California falling into the sea, at least as far as I know.
We are dealing with fire.
We are dealing with fire in California, just not fire from heaven.
I might change my mind about some of that at some point.
But when God When God sent the angels to Sodom, he wanted Lot and his family.
Everybody was supposed to get out, down to the last person.
Or in C.S. Lewis's great book, That Hideous Strength, where everybody who was favored by the Lord got out of Edgstow, you know, every last person.
Jesus tells us when you're persecuted in one city, flee to the next.
But that doesn't mean that absolutely everybody has to, right?
There are some times where a person should stay and go into harm's way, like the Apostle Paul did when he went to Jerusalem.
So.
Agabus gave him a prophecy that you're going to be arrested, and Paul goes to Jerusalem anyway.
So, the first thing I would say is that this is a decision that every servant of the Lord has to make with regard to his own guidance, his own family, his own circumstances, his own history, what he believes God is calling him to do.
So, if God tells everybody to get out of Sodom, the person who hangs back is disobeying.
When you're leaving California, you might be leaving California in obedience, and someone else is remaining in obedience.
So I wouldn't turn it into you're disobeying God if you're not coming with me.
But I would say, as a general rule, people know how to come in out of the rain.
So the refugee columns generally know which way to go.
Fleeing for the Lord's Work00:15:16
Right.
All right.
So just for example, here in Idaho, if you look up U-Haul rates, what it costs to rent a U-Haul to go from Portland to Boise as compared to Boise to Portland, it's $90 one way and $900 the other way.
Right.
Okay.
And that's because U-Haul doesn't want trucks driving back empty.
That's right.
So, they've got to adjust the costs and so on.
But that tells you what direction the traffic flow is.
You mentioned $600,000 annually.
And then, with your governor doing insane things like outlawing gasoline-powered automobiles 2035.
Yeah, by 2035.
Crazy.
Yeah.
You say, man, are you trying to chase people out?
Yeah.
I think so.
Because that's what you're doing.
That's what you're doing.
So basically, what I would say is that people are going to make decisions that have to do with their primary responsibilities.
So your primary responsibility would be as a husband and a father, another primary responsibility would be as a pastor.
Those are primary responsibilities.
Secondary or tertiary responsibilities would be things like I've got a great job with this company and I like the benefits.
Right.
Well, that's something to take into account.
Well, if I move my family, we'd have to start over, and I'm not sure how much of a challenge that would be.
I think I can run the risk of staying here.
It's only five more years until I retire.
Those are the sorts of cost benefit analyses that individuals can undertake.
But everybody should undertake that decision making process, understanding that blue states are.
The blue states are under heavy governmental mismanagement and a God hating approach to life.
So, if you remain, you need to remain with your eyes open.
If you go, you need to go with your eyes open.
Yep, that's good.
So, part of my thinking with this is we always have, I remember one of your blogs, you said it's permissible, it's fine to leave a state like this.
Provided that you have reasons.
And so, in terms of reasons, one of the reasons for me is you know, we should always, as Christians, have a theological framework, some kind of theological conviction should be driving us.
And so, for me, some of the convictions that I've come into because of ministers such as yourself that have really challenged me to think more deeply on certain topics.
So, one thing for me is kind of coming into more of a Kyperian persuasion versus a two kingdom idea.
And then, you know, I'm probably optimistic all mill, but I'm a guy who probably be, give me five years and I'll probably be post mill.
So just give me a little bit more time, Doug, but I'll probably be there.
Definitely think more highly of all the post mill guys, it's just their position.
Like, yeah, I want that position.
I'm just trying to get there exegetically.
But that said, if you're more Kyperian, if you're more post mill, optimistic all mill, I guess what I'm getting at is this.
When I thought, When I was 23 years old and thought, I want to plant a church and go to California, I really wish some people would have stopped me.
But God was sovereign as He always is.
I got there.
God does things providentially, even through the foolishness of men.
I think I bit off way more than I could chew.
I wasn't really prepared.
I don't think it was thought through.
But my thinking at the time was this is the heat of the battle.
Texas, where I grew up, there are churches everywhere.
California has far less churches.
There's more of a need.
But I was thinking through the lens, I look now in hindsight, I was thinking through the lens of so much of it was saving the lost, saving the lost.
And as I've grown in my theology, I never want to get to a place where I desire to do anything less than seeing the lost come to saving faith in Jesus.
But at this point in my life, I don't want to do less than that, but I want to do far more.
I want to start schools.
I want to have a church where people are starting businesses and owning property and buying homes.
And I would like for our church, which we've tried for 10 years, To own property and still can't accomplish that goal because it's very, very difficult.
So for me, I think a big part of it is, you know, it's not like I'm moving on from the Great Commission.
I just have a better understanding of what the Great Commission entails, teaching people to obey all of Christ's commands.
And so because I actually want to, I think Phil Johnson said, I want to engage culture the way that David engaged Goliath, right?
So it's not like I don't want to engage culture.
I just want to engage it with courage.
I want to win the culture.
I want to take over, not win friends and influence people, but I actually like, I want to go into battle and I want to start schools and businesses and publishing companies, the things that you guys have done so well in Moscow.
I want members of my church to be able to own property.
I don't want them to be regulated at every single turn and corner with business, all those kinds of things.
Because of that, I'm wanting to leave California because I want it's not just fleeing for safety for my children, my wife, although that's part of it, but I want to do a lot for the Lord Jesus Christ.
And so for me, I guess.
I guess my question is Am I thinking properly there?
Because I feel like a lot of the arguments that I hear from Christians to be somewhere like California, it's a missionary mindset, which I accept, right?
Because if you're going to say nobody should be here, then we've got to stop sending missionaries to Russia.
We got to stop sending missionaries to China, right?
Because by that principle, you just have to say any oppressive, tyrannical place, we just don't go.
So, certainly, there's that missionary mindset.
And certainly, we want to win the lost.
And the gospel thrives in oppressed locations under persecution.
But at the same time, I just want to do more than win the lost.
I want to.
What do you.
Help me with that.
One of the first things, yeah, we want to win the lost.
But one of the first things you want to make sure is that you don't.
Lose the saved.
Right?
So, and that means who are your, here's a fundamental question: who are your grandkids going to marry?
Yeah.
Okay.
Who are your grandkids going to marry?
You, and this is related to culture building, community building in a place where it's not against the law to build a Christian community.
When you do that, when you have the freedom to build a community, you have the freedom to build a staging area.
So, when Eisenhower was preparing to invade Normandy, he didn't send soldiers over in onesies, twosies.
There was a massing staging area where you could.
I believe that we should be thinking of California and be thinking of Illinois and be thinking of New York.
But if you want to take something on of that magnitude, you should have people staging, you know, resources, ministries.
So, what we've been doing in Idaho.
I'll put it this way.
I've had far more of an impact on California living in Idaho than I think I would have had I moved to California.
I'm proof positive.
Yep.
That makes sense.
So leaving California is not the same thing as writing off California.
Right.
That's good.
That's okay.
What you're doing is that you've invested time there.
You've got people you love there.
You don't forget about them, you don't move to Texas and forget about them.
What you do is you start sending.
Resources.
You start.
Is there a way to transplant your social media ministry?
And can you focus on places like California, radio free blue states, right?
Right.
That's good.
That's helpful.
With this fleeing, all right.
So there's certainly the Bible gives a framework.
It's permissible for Christians to flee, provided they have reasons.
But I've been thinking, this is another thought that I've been having lately.
I wanted to pick your brain on, but there's fleeing to safety, but there's also, like, for the Christian, there's fleeing to the fight.
And so I'm kind of looking at the lay of the land.
Texas is not as red as it used to be when I was growing up, which is sad.
And so, you know, there are redder states that I could go to and more conservative places.
But I'm looking at, you know, places like California, places like New York, deep blue.
And it feels like, and I'm just curious if, If there's a better way to think about this, it feels like, like when I think of, um, well, I think of your dad, um, Jim Wilson, and the you know, the strategic point, the decisive point, you know, something that's it's winnable, um, but it's also would be significant if it was won, right?
We could, you know, Manhattan would be really significant, but I don't know if we're going to take it.
And then, you know, Timbuktu, you know, with 250 population, we could take it, you know, in two weeks, but uh, what would it mean, right?
So, that concept, you know, thinking strategically about the Great Commission and about evangelism, all those things that your dad did a really great job, and you've kind of Carried that baton.
That being said, there are the deep red states, there are deep blue states.
Part of the reason I feel drawn to Texas is one, my family's there, extended family.
I want my kids to be around grandma and grandpa, all those kinds of things.
But two, I think of the Battle of Bunkers Hill.
I think it feels like the decisive point.
It feels like a place where it's this is the thought I keep having.
I keep thinking of Revelation strengthen that which remains and is about to die.
That's how I think of Texas.
I think, you know, strengthen that which remains and is about to die.
So part of me feels like there are safer states that would have a better refugee camp that the Californian could maybe go to, you know what I mean, than Texas.
But Texas feels like, man, if we could get some reserves, some Christian reserves, maybe we could win this.
What do you think about that?
What you're highlighting is a huge problem because, and we're facing it here in Idaho as well, because we've had massive numbers of Californians.
Right.
Coming here.
And one of the problems is there's a certain category of refugee who's fleeing something unpleasant, but he doesn't understand the source of the unpleasantness.
Right.
He's going to vote blue in a red state.
Right.
He wants to get out of the blue state.
Right.
And he wants to get out of the blue state because of all the blueness.
But then he goes to Texas and he votes like a Californian.
Right.
So what he does is he tracks California into Texas.
Right.
Okay.
It's the Israelites.
Get out of Egypt, but you got to get the Egypt out of them.
Exactly.
We've had a number of Californians emigrating to Boise, for example, and Boise is now more purple than red.
Idaho used to be a red, red, red state.
But now, because of all the Californians, there's some foolishness going on in the city government in Boise.
All right.
So, and the same thing is going on in Texas or in certain places in Texas where.
It's a lot more touch and go than it used to be.
One of the things that you could do is return and have as a goal strengthen teaching Californians where all the foolishness that they fled originated.
Right.
Where did it come from?
How did it start?
When did California go crazy?
And are you helping Texas go crazy in the same way?
Right.
Right.
Yep.
Really helpful.
So, what do you think about that, though?
What would you say to a Christian in terms of choosing a place?
Should Christians prioritize purple over let's flee all the way to red in the sense of like strengthen that which remains and is about to die?
Do you think there's, again, I've, yeah.
Yes, I think that Christians should prioritize purple, everything else being equal.
Okay.
Right.
Yeah.
Of course.
Where does my family live?
Where can I get a job?
Correct.
So you've got other factors that apply to this, but if everything else is equal and you feel called to engage, you want to go to the part of the battle where the consequences of the results of the battle are still up in the air.
California's lost.
Exactly.
California's lost.
South Dakota is not yet being contested.
Okay.
Houston is a battle zone.
Right, right.
Yep.
Austin is lost, but Houston, Dallas.
Yeah, that's helpful.
So, that being said, it just kind of sparking a thought.
I mean, so all things being equal.
So, of course, there are reasons to live in any state.
And I think family being a big one.
So, for me, the biggest thing that you really challenged me with when we had breakfast back in, I think it was February together, was just being a four generation man.
Like, what biblical masculinity?
What does it mean to be a man?
He takes responsibility for others, provision, protection, those kinds of things, and thinking four generations deep.
The command to obey your father and mother may be temporary, but the command to honor thy father and mother is lifelong.
And so I'm thinking about my parents, grandma and grandpa now to my children.
I'm thinking about my wife.
I'm thinking about my kids.
And then a good man, and I strive to be a good man, lays up an inheritance for his children's children.
So I'm thinking parents, wife, kids, grandkids, four generations deep.
And it's like, well, the Bible's not about money.
It's not about, you know, but when you just draw out the practical implications of all the commands that Christ gives to us, Through his word.
It's a lot of work.
Me and a man, you're going to have to do a lot of work.
I got to provide for my wife.
I want to care for my aging parents.
I want to provide for my children and their children, all these kind of things.
The Prodigal Son Strategy00:06:21
And so I was just thinking, I don't know how to do that in California.
California penalizes hard work and rewards laziness.
And so it's going to be really hard to be the Christian man that I feel like Christ calls me to be.
All that being said, I think the biggest thing for me to let go of that was so hard was just this missionary mind.
It just felt like.
It felt like failure.
And so, really hard.
COVID 19 helped, and just the Lord providentially, you know, from the time that you and I talked, it wasn't that long ago, but, you know, a lot has happened since then.
So, part of me is, okay, retreating back to a place where we'll have deeper wells, deeper reserves, and I can actually maybe do more for California than I can as I'm presently here.
That you said that, that's really helpful for me.
I agree with that.
But here's my question Do you think there's a way, like, The broad way I can ask the question is, what do you think is the best strategy for Christians to win California to Christ?
And I'll just show my hand here.
I feel like I think of the prodigal son.
I think like one of the worst things that could have happened for the prodigal is, because he came to his senses at the bottom of the barrel, the end of the rope.
And I'm thinking, man, it almost seems like one of the worst things that could have happened for the prodigal, right before he starts longing to eat the pods that were being used to feed the pigs in a far distant land.
And it seems like one of the worst things that could have happened is a member of his father's household coming and finding him.
And giving him a handout.
And so part of me, and maybe this is just too general, too blanket statement, maybe not sympathetic enough, but part of me just feels like one of the best things that Christians could do for California is stop propping it up and, like the prodigal son, exit California and then send our grandchildren back in once it's imploded and take over the land.
Am I being harsh?
What do you think?
No, I think that you're thinking like a general there.
And I think that that's reasonable.
So, I would back up to one of the first comments I made.
Let's say you've got friends that don't go with you back to Texas and they're faithful Christians, they're fighting the good fight.
I wouldn't hesitate to get them resources at all because they're not the prodigal son.
That's right.
That's good.
They're on a mission and, yeah, send them help.
It's a frontier mission.
If you've got acquaintances that use more than half suspect, Didn't leave California because, like Demas, they were in love with the world.
Yeah, they're still dazzled by the bright lights.
Then I would just let it crash.
Right.
Let them get to the point of the prodigal son because that person is the prodigal son.
But there might be a faithful Christian who remains who needs all your prayers and all your support and everything you can muster to send to them.
Really helpful.
Yep.
That's really good.
Okay.
So this is what we typically do, Pastor Doug, on the show.
We usually kind of wrap up the episode.
And then if our guest has the time, we love to keep them on for an additional episode.
15 minutes for a bonus question.
And so, kind of even modeling some of that strategy off of Cross Politic, Gabe Wrench has been really helpful.
And he's actually on our board with Right Response Ministries.
And so, he's been helpful with strategy and things like that.
And so, we have our bonus content for our club members.
We call them responders.
And so, anybody who's listening right now, if you haven't become a responder, we encourage you to do so.
And, Doug, would you have 15 more minutes to answer a bonus question for us?
Sure thing.
Okay.
So, just to whet the appetite before we close this episode, here's kind of the bonus question.
In three sentences, long winded preacher here.
So there seem to be several new dividing lines forming in evangelicalism.
Thinking of, you know, we've got the old dividing lines, complementarianism, cessationism versus continuationism, Calvinism versus Arminianism, all those kinds of things.
And those lines have been drawn for a while.
But now all of a sudden, we've got CRT, intersectionality, differing responses to COVID 19, mask, no mask, socialism versus capitalism, soft complementarianism, which I don't even really.
It feels like a jumbo shrimp, like an oxymoron, but soft complementarianism, all these different things, new, at least seemingly new dividing lines.
So, in the same way that people who have lived in California, like we've been talking about for several years, and maybe it's always been in the back of their mind, but they're now getting real serious about, I think I'm going to pull the trigger and leave.
It seems like in my conversations with people, people who have been a part of the same local church for several years, they're not your chronic church hoppers, they've been faithful in a local church, all of a sudden are considering leaving their church.
Because their church that they thought was conservative for the last 10 years, all of a sudden their pastor's recommending white fragility by D'Angelo or something like that.
So, how do you think with these new lines being drawn in the sand, right?
Because of the resurgence with Calvinism and reform doctrine, it was getting people to cross a line, to come over to this side.
And guys like you and Piper and MacArthur and all these guys were helpful with that.
But now it seems like there's new lines being drawn, and it seems like there's not just musical chairs with what state am I going to live in in the Union, but musical chairs with churches.
Long time faithful members are changing churches.
And so, my question is do you think that's true?
And if so, how is this going to play out for evangelicalism at large over the next two, three, four, five years, even just a few years?
What is your prediction of what's going to happen?
And in general, is this a good thing or a bad thing?
So, that's our bonus question.
Doug's going to come right back on and give us another 10, 15 minutes of his thoughts, and that'll be a wrap.
So, thank you guys for listening.
And, Doug, Thank you so much for coming on.
I'm so blessed by your ministry.
Could you tell our listeners, real quick, how they could follow you and keep up with what you're doing?
Okay, probably the best clearinghouse is DougWills.com.
D O U G W I L S.com.
And you can pretty much get to anything I do from there.
Great.
Thank you, Pastor Doug.
You have been a blessing to me and a blessing to a lot of people in our church here in San Diego.
So thanks.
Bonus Thoughts and Wrap-Up00:00:26
As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book.
From our store.
To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.comslash offer.
We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?
If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God, this would be a great resource.
As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.comslash offer.