Toby Sumpter and Pastor Joel dismantle the fallacy of "Christian niceness," distinguishing biblical chesed from deceitful avoidance. They argue that true grace confronts sin, citing Jesus' crucifixion and Acts' riot evangelism where Paul's arrests sparked thousands of conversions. Sumpter asserts that while not all believers engage in polemics, pastors must proclaim difficult truths without skipping passages, noting that "winning the man" often leads to broader victories. Ultimately, the discussion challenges modern churches to re-evaluate their reliance on relational comfort over the disruptive, gospel-centered conflict found in Scripture. [Automatically generated summary]
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Pastor Joel Meets Toby Sumpter00:02:21
Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
This is Theology Applied.
Okay, welcome.
This is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries.
We've got another episode of Theology Applied today.
As a special guest, I have Toby Sumpter.
He is one of the pastors at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho.
He's also one of the hosts for a podcast called Cross Politic.
And today, the topic that we're going to be addressing is Christian polemics, Christian polemics, not politics, but polemics.
And we're going to be doing our best by God's grace to debunk the absurdity, the fallacy of the 11th commandment, Christian niceness.
And so I want to go ahead and just dive right in.
So the first thing that we'll do is just give you a moment, Toby, to just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Who are you?
Who is Toby Sumter?
Well, that's a long and sordid tale, but.
The short version is I am a pastor here, as you mentioned.
I've been in the ministry for about, I think, coming up on 15 years.
I am married, have four children, and we're heavily involved with a classical Christian school here in Moscow called Logos School.
And like you said, I'm also heavily involved with the Cross Politic podcast and television show.
Yep.
And that's a daily event now.
It used to be once a week.
And now I keep looking at that and I think about your family life and just your pastoral work.
And then I, you know, the daily brief from, you know, you and Gabe and Chalk Knox seem to split that rotation.
But still, I'm like, Toby's doing at least three or four things a week with cross politics.
So that's, you're going to have to, you're going to have to press on Gabe and Knox to get some compensation or something.
Well, they're, they're, it's the least I can do.
Those two guys have been pulling really hard on this for a long time.
And they're, because they're, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful to be supported by the church and they're trying to make a living out of this thing.
Totally.
Yeah, I've had those conversations with Cave.
But you guys are doing great work.
I'm grateful for it.
I've benefited a ton from what you guys do.
So let's go ahead and just dive right in.
The first question I've got some questions written down.
Niceness Versus True Kindness00:11:24
The first one that I have is Could you define, and I know it's hard because people have different definitions, but what is niceness in the way that you would define it?
And maybe more importantly, in the way that you think the average Christian, the average evangelical today would define niceness.
And based off of that definition, your definition, but also the average Christian's definition of niceness, how is that contrary to the Bible?
Why is niceness not a Christian virtue?
Yeah, well, I think maybe the closest thing to a Christian virtue that is the closest relative, or maybe the real version of what I think Christians sort of assume when they say niceness, would be what the Bible calls kindness.
Right.
So, kindness is a fruit of the Spirit.
God is kind to us.
He's been supremely kind to us in Jesus.
I think that word is rooted in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word chesed, which is frequently translated as loving kindness or merciful kindness.
And so, you know, that would be really closely connected to our word for grace.
And that which is gracious.
So, do I believe that Christians are to be gracious like God is gracious?
Absolutely.
Are Christians to be kind and tenderhearted?
Well, absolutely.
If you are not a kind man, a gracious man, a merciful woman, a forgiving woman, then the Bible is clear.
Then you perhaps have not met our God.
You have not met the Lord Jesus because when you've been showed that kind of love, that kind of kindness, that kind of tender mercy, you can't help but then show that kind of tender mercy, that kind of love, that kind of forgiveness.
But that.
I think the world defines niceness, though.
I think they sort of co opt this category, but they're filling that category with alien ideas.
And one of the principal ones would be that in order to be nice, in order to be kind, you must never offend anyone.
You must not ever say anything that hurts someone's feelings.
It makes them feel bad.
But that is not the kindness of God.
That's not the love of God.
The love of God confronts us in our sin and, in a wonderful way, even humiliates us in our sin.
The reason why we are driven to the cross and driven to Christ is because God and His kindness shows us how awful we are, how filthy our sin is, and how shameful it is.
And it's really only when you have been.
Caught by that, confronted by that reality, that you are in a position to cry out for mercy.
And then God is there.
I mean, the whole reason why He drives us to the cross is so that He can show us mercy.
But so it's, anyway, so Christian love, though, sometimes the New Testament writers describe confronting, speaking the truth in love.
And I think frequently what Christians think that means is.
Is go light on the truth, go heavy on the love.
Right.
And I, but I don't think that's what it means at all.
I think it means speak the truth.
And in speaking the truth, you are in fact loving your neighbor.
And I think, you know, there's obviously ways that you can be a jerk about it.
And, but that's not kind and not gracious.
But just because someone thinks you're being a jerk doesn't mean you're not being loving.
And so, and then ultimately, I would just point to the example of Jesus himself.
If Jesus had been nice according to the standards of the world, he would have never been killed.
That's right.
And we'd be dead in our sin.
Yeah.
But he was killed because he wasn't nice according to the world's standards.
But he was absolutely gracious, he was absolutely kind and merciful.
But again, you look at all the apostles.
I mean, at least 11 of the 12 got killed according to church tradition.
And they didn't get killed because they were being too nice.
Right.
They were killed because they were willing to speak the truth at places where people would be deeply offended, hate them, and plot to put them to death.
Yep.
And it all seems like it's, in many ways, centered around speaking.
So I'm reminded of Jesus when he says, You know, I've done many great works of God.
For which of these good works, speaking of his miracles, his working, his hands, his feet, for which of these are you going to put me to death?
And they say, We're not going to put you to death for any of the things that you've done.
It's the things that you've said.
It's because you, by your speaking, by your words, are making yourself an equal to God.
And so I'm always thinking of Christians today, I think, in their niceness.
Part of the way that Christians want to be nice is they want to center their evangelistic efforts around deeds.
And there is a sense in which we do our good deeds so that people, men, might see them and glorify our Father in heaven.
But people are only going to glorify our Father in heaven when we do good deeds if we're giving, in our words, our Father in heaven credit.
Otherwise, people, they're not going to glorify a father in heaven.
They're going to glorify the power of humanity.
It's just a humanitarian effort where all it's going to do is actually counterproductive because, really, the results to me, it seems like it just anybody who might have been kind of doubting humanity might have been thinking maybe humanity really is bad and needs a savior.
And oh, but you know what?
I've been so encouraged today because my neighbor just did the kindest thing, just did the best thing.
And so there really are good people out there.
And that's because your neighbor did a really good thing who's actually a Christian.
And that was the basis for them doing that good thing.
But you would never know, right?
I've heard the old adage that, you know, if I ever did meet a Christian, he never blew his cover.
Somebody said that.
It might have been Doug Wilson.
I can't remember.
But, you know, but that idea of just this undercover minds for Jesus, undercover Christian, and it really just does no good.
When you were saying truth and love, it just got me thinking about, you know, we divorce these things, but it's a truthful love and a loving truth.
And I think, You're talking about confrontation.
Niceness just never confronts.
But I think that's the truth piece.
Would you agree that truth, it seems to me, truth necessarily, by virtue of the truth, it necessarily confronts anything that is not of the truth?
And so to withhold, to me, for a Christian to intentionally withhold, there's no way, I should say it like this there's no way to withhold confrontation without suppressing truth.
And so for me, I would say it seems like one of the differences between niceness and kindness.
If we got really specific, niceness is kindness with deceit.
It's kindness absent of truth.
Would you agree with that?
Do you think that's a fair assessment?
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think there's a couple of old King James words that I think we need to recover that are connected to this, but one of them is the word dissembling.
And I think many Christians are full of dissembling.
And the idea is that it's, and the other word I'm thinking of is flattery.
But I think Christians are full of flattery, and it's not so much that you're constantly singing the high praises of everyone all the time, but a more subtle form of flattery is that we are constantly pretending that everything's fine because we're afraid of coming in contact with the enemy.
But I think to your point on confrontation, absolutely, I think if we are light, then light confronts darkness, it exposes darkness.
And, you know, I mean, Jesus gave us the example of, you know, hiding your light under a bushel, for example, you know, on purpose, because he knows, he knew our hearts and knew that the darkness hates the light because it exposes their deeds done in darkness.
Right.
And so, absolutely, it's confrontational in the same way that light always confronts darkness.
And I think you're absolutely right.
It's the niceness, quote unquote, niceness, is full of lies and deception.
It reminds me of, I think you spoke on this before, you guys with Cross Policy, but it's an example, a specific example would be like the pronoun hospitality with J.D. Greer.
That just the idea of, well, this is one way we can exercise hospitality or kindness, because that's what hospitality is entertaining strangers, but with kindness and generosity.
And so J.D. Greer is, he's just building this false pretense that you could somehow exercise genuine Holy Spirit wrought kindness.
But with deceit.
And, you know, and I, yeah, it's this idea that I can entertain somebody's, somebody's, I mean, somebody's sick.
That person's really sick.
They're delusional.
And I'm going, I'm affirming that every time I say she when it should be he, I'm affirming a sickness.
And we're calling that kindness.
Like we wouldn't do that with anything.
I think you guys have said this before also, but like anorexia, right?
Like we would, if a woman who weighs, you know, 84 pounds and is just, You know, just skin and bones is talking about how fat she is.
I would never say to that woman, Yeah, you really are fat.
And if you could, like, I mean, if we did that in our culture today, everyone would say, You're a monster.
You're a monster.
But we affirm people.
But now we say that's body shaming.
Yes, right, right.
And so, yeah, but now we're doing the very same thing, not with somebody who's starving themselves, but somebody who's at least mulling over the idea of mutilating.
Themselves, like how is that any better?
How is that any?
And but we would call that, and and and I only bring it up just to say that's an example of a very well known, you know, evangelical pastor, uh, advocating for.
And I think he he would say, you know, he called it pronoun hospitality, but I think he would put it into that category of kindness.
And I think you and I both would say that's that's not kindness, it may be niceness, but that's precisely the problem.
That's the distinction we're trying to show between niceness.
And kindness.
When Polemics Are Required00:15:48
So, if I could just kind of move us along in the conversation, what about polemics then?
So, we've kind of defined, you've helped us with niceness and why it's a problem and how that differs from the actual fruit of the spirit kindness.
But what does it mean for a Christian to be polemical?
And is this something that every Christian should engage in?
And what are good polemics?
And what's so, in the same way, niceness, the distinction between niceness and kindness, what's the distinction between Christian polemics and just being a jerk?
Right.
Yeah.
Unlike the fruit of the spirit, which is for every Christian.
So, every Christian, you don't have the option of opting out of any of the fruit of the Spirit.
If you have the Holy Spirit, then He's working all those fruits into you, and you need to be growing in them.
Unlike that, I would say that the practice of polemics is not necessarily something that every Christian is called to.
Okay, that's helpful.
I think that you're called to always tell the truth, and sometimes somebody might think you're being polemical because you're telling the truth, there you are, and Everyone says, Don't you love the emperor's new clothes?
And you're saying, Well, I think he's naked, guys.
And you might get written up in the newspaper as being polemical when all you were doing was asserting the bare minimal truth.
So we're fast reaching the point where many or most Christians might be accused of being polemical, radicals, whatever.
But I would say, in general, not every Christian is.
Is called to it.
I think so.
So, what I mean by polemics is sort of a public prophetic like ministry that is intentionally attempting to call out the leaders of evil, the leaders of darkness, and those who are wolves and false prophets and so on.
It's intentionally confrontational and sort of the I'm calling you out, I want to do battle with you.
Spiritually speaking, biblically speaking, and typically highly verbal and rhetorical.
So I'm thinking of examples like Elijah and the showdown of the prophets of Baal and Ahab.
He had a polemical ministry.
Many of Ezekiel's ministry is polemical in the sense that he is going to town, rebuking and denouncing.
The Israelites and their idolatry and their sin.
Many of the other prophets have very polemical ministries as well.
Jesus had polemical elements to his ministry.
He will tell stories meant to cause the priests and Pharisees to be ashamed of their hypocrisies.
He makes fun of them.
He tells jokes about them.
And Paul does the same.
The writer of most of the New Testament letters will mock the Judaizers for going back to the law, calls them dogs, says they're mutilators of the flesh, asks when you're going to go circumcise somebody, why don't you just go the whole way and emasculate them?
Those would be examples, though, of what I would describe as polemics, where it's a combination of sort of Jeremiah, which is what we get from Jeremiah the prophet, it's a confrontational rebuke,
married to, I think, or what ought to be married to a deeply actually joyful love of the truth, which will come out sometimes, though, in a certain kind of godly mockery, a holy denunciation that.
You know, it mimics God's own laughter in heaven.
In Psalm 2, it says that, you know, the nations rage and plot vain things, and God sits in heaven and laughs and holds them in derision because they reject him and reject his Messiah.
So that's what I mean by polemics.
And I think not all Christians are called to it.
I don't even think all pastors are called to it.
But I would say that I think that.
All pastors have a calling that's at least closer to it in the sense that they really do have to preach all of God's word.
They can't skip over the dicey parts and they have to proclaim them faithfully and courageously.
But I would say, and maybe I'd say to the extent that all sermons are sort of an echo of prophetic ministry, there's an element in them.
But I think there are some pastors that are faithful.
Generals in the army, faithful men who aren't necessarily going to be the out in front hollering at the prophets of Baal and asking them if their God's still in the bathroom or not.
But I think many pastors are called to it and other Christian leaders.
Yep.
Super helpful.
I kept thinking as you were talking, I think part of if any of our listeners would kind of just be gritting their teeth as you were sharing that, just like internally pushing back, and I don't like that.
I don't think that doesn't sound Christian to me.
It doesn't sound like kindness, it doesn't sound like gentleness.
I think part of the hang up.
At least for myself, even as I kind of came into a better understanding of this biblical category.
Part of the hang up for me was what you were speaking about earlier in terms of just understanding shame.
I think for a lot of Christians, we don't have any positive category for shame.
And so if we only see shame as something that's toxic and harmful, it only does harm.
We don't have any category for the grace of shame.
We don't have any category.
And I think some of that is just the niceness, you know, it's just kind of the good old boy, you know, Christian thing.
But I think the gospel centered Christian tribe, if you will, has tried to justify that mindset theologically.
And so, with this gospel centered everything mentality, I think I've heard a lot of Christians and a lot of pastors say, well, the gospel is a shame free zone.
Whereas I always think, you know, the gospel, you know, God, the law of God, God loves his law just as much as he loves his gospel.
And both, he loves them because they reveal his own nature.
The law reveals who God is, it's an extension of his own self.
And the gospel also reveals God's mercy, his kindness, who God is.
And so for me, when I see the law and gospel working together, it actually is not a shame free zone, it actually produces shame.
And what the gospel to me, what the cross does is the gospel doesn't provide a shame free zone.
It provides a place where shame drives people to where our shame ultimately can be dealt with.
And so, like when God comes looking for Adam in the garden, he doesn't say, You have no reason to be ashamed, or the garden is a shame free zone.
Don't be, you know, but rather it's Adam's trying to cover his own nakedness.
He's doing a poor job of trying to deal with his own shame.
And God kind of leans in.
And yeah, you should be ashamed, but let me cover that.
Let me take that shame.
And so I just think we struggle with polemics because polemics is more than just what we started off talking about.
You know, the opposite of niceness, just truth, and truth being by its own virtue confrontational.
But polemical language seems to say, like, all right, this is already going to be confrontational.
And I'm going to kind of correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like polemical language would kind of say this a little stronger than I even.
I'm going to be, I'm going to up the ante a little bit.
But I think the reason why is because we believe that sometimes the Lord does humiliate, He breaks us.
Hosea 6, He tears us to pieces.
He crushes us.
He breaks us.
He disciplines and He uses shame as His rod to get through to us, to dismantle and disassemble all those things that are not in His image, that are not in place, and to build us back up in.
And so, I guess, so my question is if we're talking about using, you know, extra strong language, and you've already, it was really helpful just saying, all right, this isn't for everybody, not even necessarily for every pastor, much less every Christian.
But you're saying there is a category.
Some people are called to this.
So, what would you do if a Christian, just to play the devil's advocate, if a Christian says, all right, Toby, you know, 2 Timothy 2, verse 24 and 25?
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone.
Able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.
For who knows, God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth.
And they may come to their senses, like the prodigal, coming to their senses and escape the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.
Like, what if I was saying, Toby, it sounds like gentleness, correction with gentleness is the tool that God's prescribing, at least in this text, for being effective.
That you don't have to go above and beyond, that gentle correction will produce enough necessary shame to drive someone to repentance if the Lord has ordained it.
What would you say?
Yeah, well, I would say I think every pastor should have that verse somewhere in their study or underlined in their Bible.
It's a wonderful summary of pastoral ministry.
And I would say that we need to make sure that we define every word.
In those verses, according to the Bible.
And the same Paul who wrote that to Timothy, insisting that Timothy imitate him and imitate his ministry, is the same Paul who, you know, I said earlier what he told the Judaizers.
He wrote a pretty harsh letter of rebuke to the Corinthians.
And, you know, I mean, and the Corinthians were kind of a piece of work, special church.
And in 2 Corinthians in particular, Paul says, and I know I made you guys very sad, and I'm glad that I did.
He rebuked them, and I would say, and he did it with gentleness.
Gentleness doesn't mean not doing anything that doesn't hurt.
Gentleness, I believe, means doing what is necessary for the good of those you're addressing.
A surgeon who needs to amputate my leg because it's infected and it's going to get me sick and kill me should not use more force and more violence than is necessary to remove my leg.
But when he's done a faithful job of removing my leg, I would say he has acted in full gentleness according to what the moment required.
It was restraint because he didn't take off both of my legs.
He didn't just put a bullet in my head.
He didn't use it as an opportunity to work on his hatchet skills.
Right.
But did God confront Saul on the road to Damascus with gentleness?
I would say absolutely did.
What Saul deserved was hell.
And what he got was knocked off his horse and blinded.
Right.
God was using all kinds of restraint.
You know, you little annoying, you know, right.
You know, could have been way worse, could have sent fire down on them.
And yet, God in his gentleness confronts us with just the right amount of force.
And I think, you know, I was just thinking about this morning, I taught a class the story of Naboth's vineyard with King Ahab and Jezebel.
And he's the opposite.
Yeah, horrific.
I mean, layer upon layer of wickedness.
Yeah.
Fitting and then plotting and then falsehood.
But I want it.
But culminating in murder.
And theft of this good man's inheritance from many generations.
And then is confronted by the prophet, rebuked by the prophet, and Ahab repents.
And God accepts his repentance.
Yeah, that's really helpful.
And so the heart that we ought to have is absolutely one of correct them.
Maybe they will turn back from the snare of the devil, exactly what Paul tells Timothy.
But the question is, What is the force required?
And the force required, rhetorically, verbally speaking, if it is in fact what is required to get the repentance, that is imitating God's gentleness.
That's super helpful.
I love how, like, what you just said about Paul in terms of, you know, when he's writing, you know, to the Galatians and, like, I, you know, I wish they go the whole, these, you know, mutilators of the flesh, these Judaizers, I wish they would just go the whole way and emasculate themselves.
And we know he's not being literal, it's sarcasm.
Right, like is there any category, Christian category for sarcasm?
We say there is that's that's a sarcasm and satire, those kinds of things are types of polemical language.
And so, what you're saying is that the same Paul who wrote this command it's not a suggestion, a command to Timothy.
We should assume that the apostle of Christ, um, exercised he followed this same command, uh, himself.
He's not giving a command to Timothy and not doing it himself.
And so, so then we have to go back.
That's so helpful to say, all right, so this is what Paul says, this is the prescription.
Now we can go back and look at descriptive texts and put them in this mold and say, so what Paul did there must have been the Lord's servant, not being quarrelsome, kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring.
So this is Paul patiently enduring evil when he says these guys should just chop it off.
The Fruit of the Spirit Is Connected00:06:06
That is an example of correcting his opponents with gentleness.
So that's super helpful.
And it just got me thinking about one more thing.
And I would love your thoughts on this.
But for me, I think in my pastoral ministry, I've had some encounters where.
I've realized, I think one of the hang ups, one of the misconceptions, I think it's a misconception.
You might disagree with me.
But I think one of the misconceptions is when we think of the fruit of the Spirit, I've noticed that a lot of Christians view the fruit of the Spirit as though it were a toolbox.
And each individual fruit of the Spirit is like an individual tool.
And so each circumstance, situation in life may call for a hammer or a ratchet, you know, or a screwdriver.
And so, and because of that, a lot of Christians, they'll look at Paul, for instance.
So they, here's the pushback, playing the devil's advocate.
They would, They would look at Paul and they say, Yeah, Paul says gentleness.
But then what he was doing in that moment with the Galatians, or when he's saying, Who bewitched you?
Again, he doesn't think they're actually bewitched.
It's this sarcasm.
He's like, You must be under a spell to be this dumb.
I was just there.
I was just there, preach Christ, him crucified, preach the gospel.
And for you to be so quick, I am astonished, right?
It's that sarcasm.
I am like, Wow, guys, good job.
I'm amazed.
I've never, in all my ministry, I've never seen people desert the gospel so quickly.
So much so, I feel like Harry Potter must have been here and done a number on you guys because something, this is insane.
And so that kind of language, that's strong language.
We would call that harsh a lot of times in our nice Mr. Rogers Christian world.
But Paul's doing that.
And so the Christian that I've dealt with in pastoral ministry, they would sometimes say, well, Paul is using one fruit of the Spirit, or maybe two or three.
Maybe he's doing a combo power, you know, whatever, like two or three fruit of the Spirit.
But that's not gentleness.
And so my point is, Christians seem to have this framework that the fruit of the Spirit are individual tools in a toolbox, and we're using one or maybe two at a time for.
Different circumstances where my thought, and you may disagree with me, but my thought is that Jesus, for instance, he came to show us who is God.
He also came to show us who is man, the perfect man.
And so my thought is that there was never a moment in the life of Christ that he was not perfectly exuding all the fruit of the Spirit simultaneously to the greatest degree, which means when he's flipping over tables with the money changers in John chapter 2, he's showing us zeal for his father's house.
With perfect gentleness.
There's never.
So, would you agree with that assessment that the fruit of the Spirit in the life of the Christian is a package deal?
It's a fruit basket, if you will, and not individual.
Like, let me take an apple.
This moment calls for an orange.
What do you think about that principle?
Yeah, I actually, I fully agree.
Actually, I think the word there for fruit is singular.
That's right.
So, I think in many, and actually, I think rather than thinking of it as, yeah, grapes and bananas and apples, I think what we're actually talking about is one fruit.
That manifests in all of these different dynamics.
Sort of, you know, I don't know, you take a fruit, take an orange, take an apple.
It has all kinds of different texture and qualities to it.
And I think those fruit, what we call the fruit of the spirit, are just, I think, the qualities of the one fruit that the spirit gives.
The one, well, the one spirit, we could even say.
It's fruit of the spirit.
It's manifestation.
It's proof of the pudding.
The pudding is the spirit.
And so if you have the spirit, this is what the spirit looks like.
And in the same way that we don't want to, I think of like, you know, the dual natures of Christ.
I think of, you know, our theology proper in terms of the Son.
And in the same way that we don't want to get into some of the Eutychian and Nestorian heresies and this idea that we don't want to, we never want to truncate the divine essence.
We never want to chop up God.
I just think of the confession.
In your case, Westminster, in my case, 1689.
But, you know, you guys copied us.
No, we copied you.
But the point is, either way, who is God?
A most pure spirit without body parts or passions.
And so God is not dissectable.
And if the fruit of the spirit is simply the manifestation of God, God the Holy Spirit, and if God is not composed of parts, then, right?
And so in that sense, and I know that may be confusing for some of our listeners, but God is a simple being in philosophical terms.
There's nothing simple about God in a literal sense.
He's far more complex than you and I.
But we are not simple beings as human beings in the sense that if I, you know, back to the amputee illustration that you gave, if a doctor chops off my leg, I'm still Joel Webbin.
But there's nothing I can chop off of God and him still be God.
All that is in God is God.
And so all the fruit of the Spirit is all of that is a manifestation of God.
And you can't have one without the other.
If you got God, you got all of God.
In the priest of all believers, and if we believe in the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit, indwelling each saint, each believer, we don't have part of the Spirit.
We got the whole Spirit.
If we got the whole spirit, we got all the fruits.
I think we could even say that they're all connected too, in the sense that, I mean, and this is the way it is with God.
I mean, God Himself is all connected.
It's not like you can attack the spirit and not attack the Father, or you can't attack the Son and not attack the Father and the Spirit.
I think the fruit functions the same way.
If you're lacking gentleness, you're actually lacking all the rest of it.
You can't say, I'm being loving but not gentle, or I'm being gentle but not joyful.
No, if you're lacking joy, Then it's also affecting all the rest of the fruit.
You're not actually being fully self controlled.
You're not being kind.
You're not being patient.
So they hang together absolutely the entire time.
That's really helpful.
Feeding Sheep With All Virtues00:05:12
All right.
So, one more question, and then we have a couple bonus questions.
So, similar to what you guys do at the Fight Laugh Feast Network, for our prescribers, we call them responders, our club members, we have some bonus questions.
And so, one more question, though, on the main interview.
So, earlier you were talking about, Because it really is a prophetic, there's that shepherding role of pastors in the local church and shepherding the sheep.
But there is that prophetic component where when I stand into the pulpit, right, the man melts away.
It's the message.
And when I'm preaching God's word with a confidence, not myself, not in the flesh, but because God wrote a book, I'm preaching God's word and I'm feeding the sheep.
I'm praising the Lord.
I'm feeding the sheep.
But I'm also prophesying to nations and governments and kingdoms.
And I know.
I know you believe in all this.
I've learned a lot of this from you.
And so I'm doing that.
So there is that prophetic piece.
And so you said, like, with that, you know, like, whether it's, you correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's Amos who, like, kind of just leads off with your women are like cows, right?
Like, very polemical language.
Or Elijah with the prophets of Baal, you know, like, maybe you should slash yourselves a little bit more, you know, because your God just isn't paying attention.
That kind of language, You said that, like, we use that for false prophets.
So I want to pick up on that piece.
You said, like, false prophets and wolves.
You said wolves.
So my question is you know, Jesus does it with the Pharisees, but here's the thing the Pharisees, they're not regenerate.
They weren't, you know, like maybe Nicodemus later on, you know, I don't know.
But most of the Pharisees that he's using that polemical language with are not.
We always think of Pharisees today, and we think of these are people in the church.
And I always have a problem with that because I'm Pharisees weren't in the church.
They were not followers of Jesus.
They were enemies of Christ.
They may have been religious rulers for their time, but they were anti Christ.
And so, my question is in the church, so the wolf is one thing, the false prophet, false teacher is another.
Is there a category for Christians using polemical language with brothers, with one another?
Is there ever a place?
So, certainly there's a place for correction, but is there a place for types of polemical language like satire or sarcasm?
Right.
And that's not your go to.
We don't maybe start there.
But like, this guy has not been listening to me.
There's public discourse.
A lot of other Christians are watching, like a Paul and Peter kind of thing.
Like, people can be led astray by Peter's actions.
And so, in this public sphere with, you know, like a blog discourse or a podcast or something like that, this leader who should know better, I've tried to talk to him offline.
He's ignoring me.
He's not setting the record straight.
And so now I'm going to turn up the heat a little bit.
But I do think he's a brother in Christ.
Is there a category for that?
Yeah.
On the yes, and let me back up a little bit.
I think the point about the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Yeah, yeah.
What do you think about that?
I grant your point, although I think in Jesus' day, I don't think people could make those distinctions very clearly.
So I think Jesus was another rabbi among many rabbis, was an elder, so to speak, and a teacher in Israel.
So I think the reason why we have such a poor view of the Pharisees today is actually because Jesus did such a great job, did a hatchet job on the name Pharisee.
So ever since, nobody wants to be a Pharisee.
You're right.
Um, I think, um, but I think that actually speaks to the point, and it still because I think even wolves were told, um, appear in sheep's clothing.
Um, and so one of the ways that sometimes God the faithful shepherds drive away the wolves is by exposing the fact that they're wearing you know a sheepskin.
Um, they're not really um believers, they're not really faithful pastors.
Um, and then I think on the flip side, I think is what you're getting to is I do think there are truly regenerate uh Christians and leaders and pastors who will be in heaven.
Who are still really wrong about certain things.
And that needs to be addressed.
And I think there are a number of factors that need to be held together.
The short answer is yes.
And again, I would point to even Paul.
He has some really harsh words for Judaizers.
But in one of his letters, he actually mentions a few of his friends who are of the circumcision party.
Yeah.
So, Paul was able to have really hardcore polemics against the circumcision party.
But there were apparently some people who were still sort of associated with that who were nevertheless working with Paul.
And Paul was willing to work with them.
Or what he says to the Corinthian church, he recognizes infants, babes in Christ.
So he's saying, You're brothers.
And then later on, he's like, You know, we are fools, but you are wise.
Pauls Playful Rebukes00:02:59
You know, we are, you know, and like he's being sarcastic.
You know, he's that, you know, but with, but he's already affirmed them multiple times by that point in the letter that they're in Christ.
I think when it comes to, so I think there, and then you were kind of giving an example of maybe, you know, a famous Christian leader who you've.
Yeah, that was my thought.
I mean, that's one example.
And I think, you know, sometimes the distance and, you know, the ability to, you know, whether you're writing articles or responding to each other that way or, you know, a podcast or whatever.
I mean, what you want to do is contextualize it in terms of, Like, if I'm going to take a shot, if I'm going to say, come on, brother, you know better than that, and use some bit of polemics or sarcasm or so on, I want to do everything I can to nevertheless still contextualize it and say, you know, with either respect, this is an older teacher in the church, he's done good work for the kingdom.
I want there to be a sparkle in my eye, so to speak, in terms of saying, as far as I can tell, I mean, I'm going to heaven with this guy.
Right.
And so I want that to be clear, even though I think you're not being helpful over here.
And then bring it home.
I mean, I think where you want to, you know, pastors have to be careful within their own congregation.
I would say there's still a place for, you know, sort of chiding, even, you know, rebuke or correction and so on and being playful.
But I would want to sort of, Paul talks about that sort of pastoral ministry as a fatherly ministry.
Right.
And so, you know, but I think there ought to be a friendly, familiar banter in a home between a father and his children and, you know, and between you and your wife that's friendly, that's full of love and kindness and joy, but is not so wooden that you can't say, you know, what are you doing?
And I think, you know, it's when the kids are little, it's a little bit more black and white and it needs to be that way because they don't know the categories yet.
But I think as they grow a little older, especially, I've got two or three of my kids in the teenage years now.
I have to ask my wife how old they are.
But I've got three in that sort of middle school, high school range.
And more and more, I'm not correcting them anymore like I did when they were five, where I was pulling them aside and it was a fairly sort of stern black and white, like, that's wrong, you did it, so on.
They know the categories now.
And so, and now a lot of what I'm doing is sort of a friendly, you know, you know, really?
That's how you're going to talk to your sister right now?
Winning The Man Not Just The Fight00:05:43
Really?
Yeah.
I'm making fun of them, but it's in a context of deep love and respect.
And they know that.
And I know that they know that because they're laughing back at me and hustling to go make it right with their sibling or whatever.
So I think there ought to be slightly differing voices for different contexts, but I think.
You are using in some ways the same muscle.
It's a polemical muscle, but it might have a slightly different incarnation.
The last thing I would say is just remember that the enemy really is the devil.
The enemy really is the sin.
And yes, the Bible does describe people as enemies sometimes.
And so I think we do have enemies of the gospel and we have enemies even sometimes in the church and so on.
But don't forget that this side of heaven, this side of glory, We're still fighting to win the man.
And so that needs to be kept in mind, where it's not just, you know, I've got to be right and you've got to be proven wrong, but there's always a sense of, back to the Timothy passage, Paul's exhortation to Timothy, that, you know, perhaps God will grant them repentance and they'll be rescued from the slavery of the devil.
And even when we're talking about a true regenerate brother who's not really.
Under the dominion of the devil, there can still be deception from the devil.
There can still be just things that, you know, it's not as good as it should be.
And you want to win them over from that.
That's right.
Yeah, I completely agree.
The second Timothy 2 passage is helpful.
Win the man and keeping that always in our sights.
And then I think it's also helpful for Christians because the win the man sometimes, well, first, I think we just need to repent of our arrogance.
So some Christians, they'll hear that.
They'll say, win the man.
All right, well, there are some scenarios, Toby, where it's just that man has made it abundantly clear that he's not going to be won.
And so I think our first response, counter to that point, would be yeah, but that man does not have autonomous freedom.
He's not in charge of whether or not he's going to be won.
He might be won.
Saul didn't look very winnable on the road to Damascus.
That's right, exactly.
So that doesn't mean we quit, because I think some Christians would just say, all right, you're saying that you're trying to win the man.
But it sounds like you're just arguing.
Sounds like you're just fighting.
And it's like, well, this man could still be won.
And then I just wanted to broaden and say there's winning the man, there's also winning the men.
Like, meaning that I think of like, so there's Paul, you know, talking about how to address your direct opponent, winning the opponent himself.
But there's also Apollos.
And I think about, you know, he argued powerfully, is what the text says.
He argued powerfully.
And we don't necessarily get a description of whether or not the people he was arguing with, if any of them were won over.
But it says that the saints who were there in that area who were watching this debate, this argument going back and forth, Paulus, because he was such a powerful arguer from the scriptures and powerful, I can only assume, rhetoric, and all these other guys were encouraged.
And you see that, man, you see that when a faithful apologist takes a public debate against an atheist.
And it's like, how many times does the atheist at the end of the debate fall on his knees?
Tear his clothes, repent, you know, maybe not super often.
Number one, still, God could win that man.
Maybe he comes to faith later.
And, but then number two, all those Christians who have been beaten down by the intellectual liberals that they live with, you know, and been made fun of, we don't know their situation.
Like they've been made fun of for believing in a literal six day, you know, creation.
And they've been a young earth and been made to feel because the Orthodox, the culture is so, it's just, you know, and so they've been made to feel stupid.
And then all of a sudden, a Titan.
Right?
I mean, God gives us Titan.
Paul was a Titan.
Apollos was a Titan.
Calvin was a Titan.
Augustine was a Titan.
And these men, we still have Titans today.
I think of Bonson.
Bonson was it.
And just mopped the floor with that enemy of God, at least at the moment.
Maybe he comes around later, but just mops the floor with them.
And maybe the mop isn't one, but all the people watching the show, all those Christians who've just been beaten down and felt stupid for the last 10 years, all of a sudden they're like, whoa.
Like, we're right.
We're on the right side.
We're on the right side of history.
It doesn't matter what CNN keeps saying.
Like, we are actually on the right side of history.
And God gives us titans, I think, sometimes.
He gives us Davids because everybody else is shaking and their knees are knocking.
And then all of a sudden, the people of God become ferocious because they realize the battle can actually be won.
It's winnable.
And we have God on our side.
For several years, I participated in open air preaching on our local university campus.
And that's probably fun.
I never would have dreamed that I was going to be that guy.
And it's sort of a fun, long story that I won't tell right now of how I believe God tricked me into it.
But there is always sort of that part of you.
Lunch With An Angry Opponent00:02:42
And then there's the objection for many Christians that open air preaching is belligerent, mean, angry.
You know, are you really, you know, is it really fruitful?
Are you really being winsome?
And winsome.
I'm sick of the word winsome.
Right.
And, but, but the point you're making, absolutely, not only winning the man, but winning the men, winning the audience.
I mean, God taught me that overwhelmingly through that experience where, you know, you would get some heckler or somebody who was mad at God or you or whatever and start yelling at you and calling you all the names and everything else.
And there you would be.
You're starting to argue with them, and then a crowd appears because who doesn't want to watch a big, loud argument?
Right.
But there you are with an opportunity to show the love of Christ, to preach the gospel, to return blessing for cursing.
And there's a big crowd of people there who would never darken the doorway of a church.
That's right.
And they're seeing it live in person.
This is what the gospel does.
Amen.
And there was time after time of that happening.
And I have stories I can tell of instances where the guy who, one year ago, showed up and argued with me almost every single Friday, called me names, everything, had a rough pass and everything.
And it was at times sort of like, not him again.
And yet, and would never, I was always saying, hey, can I buy you lunch?
Could I go take you out for a drink?
I'd love to get to know you.
And no, I'm not telling you.
I'm not telling you my name.
I don't want to have anything to do with you.
You know, you're just an angry preacher and I hate you.
And went, you know, for like three months like this.
And then at the end of the three months, there was one time where he was going after me.
And then another younger kid showed up and was doing the same thing.
And about an hour later, because the other younger kid had been mocking and was even more foul and more filthy than the other guy who'd been there all semester.
The older guy who'd been mocking me all semester walks up and puts out his hand and says, I'm really sorry about that other guy.
And introduces himself and says, I'd be willing to go out to lunch with you sometime.
Churches Responding To Conflict00:06:15
Wow.
And, but meanwhile, and the thing that really, I mean, not only did it sort of, this one man was eventually won over, but then I realized also that one man who, well, he wasn't completely won over, but at least won over enough to have lunch.
But then what I realized was oh, and that man was God's gift to my preaching ministry for three months, such that every single Friday, God made sure that I had an audience.
Yeah, you're right.
You're absolutely right.
By sending that enemy.
And so, this is one of those things with polemics, with not being thought of as being nice, and so on, is that, you know, I mean, the book of Acts could be described as evangelism by riot.
Yep, riot of Antioch.
But by my count, I think there are 12 or 13 public disturbances, maybe 14 in the book of Acts, where there's a riot, there's a mob, there's an imprisonment, there's an arrest.
I think there are 13 or 14 of them.
And I believe all but one of them, Luke includes a sort of summary statement somewhere in the story just so that we don't get the wrong idea.
Most of the gospel centered ministries.
That we have around us, I mean, would cringe after every single one because Paul was in, you know, Peter was in the paper because he got arrested, and Peter and John were in the paper because they broke out of prison.
And then Paul's in the paper because of this.
And then Paul, you know, it's like bad press, bad press, bad press.
But Luke, who's telling the story, gives us these comments all through saying, and there were 3,000 added to their number.
And there were many, many of the leading women of the city believed.
Many of the nobles of the city were, you know, converted.
Many of the believers in the city were greatly encouraged.
Over and over and over, that's the story.
And it's not because they were just fighting and being belligerent or being jerks.
It's because they allowed the light of the gospel to collide with the darkness of the world.
And in that moment, preached Christ, loved their enemies, did good to those who persecuted them.
And sometimes I tell my people when I'm preaching to them that, you know, I believe in the command to love your enemies, but that means that you must have enemies to love.
And there are far too many Christians who are terrified of having enemies.
Yeah, you're right.
Who are your enemies?
They have no one to love.
Right.
The gospel centered churches, it just got me thinking.
You're talking about like Paul, you know, and the apostles getting thrown in jail and riot evangelism, not relational evangelism, not to say there's no category, but that's not the main category.
The main category is not, that's at least as far as biblical examples, it's riot evangelism.
And with that, I just think of like what happened to Paul.
I'm just trying to think of how many gospel centered churches today would say that he's not qualified to be an elder.
You don't have a good reputation with outsiders, right?
You're quarrelsome.
I think Paul would be voted out by the vast majority of congregations, presbyteries.
I think he'd be removed.
And so, yeah, we've got to get back these proper categories.
And I think you've helped us a lot with that.
So, let me, real quick, let me whet our appetite for our club members, our responders.
These are the bonus questions.
Toby and I are going to come back on for another 10, 15 minutes or so and address these.
So, one question, I've got two.
Number one, what is your stance?
On mass with COVID 19?
And why do some pastors seem to be frustrated with you on this subject?
Toby can decline to answer these things, but I'm just throwing them out there.
We'll see what he says, see what he's comfortable sharing.
Number two is Do you think some evangelical leaders have wrongly categorized the ways in which local churches should respond to COVID 19 and the ensuing lockdowns?
Do you think this has been the ways that churches should respond?
Do you think some evangelical leaders have wrongly categorized this as a matter of Christian liberty?
That's one of my concerns.
I thought it'd be really fun to briefly chat about that.
I think some things are being thrown in the category of Christian liberty that I feel are more so, no, that's a commandment, clear commandment from Christ.
So I want to hear your thoughts on how much of a spectrum of Christian liberty do we really have when it comes to churches, whether we should gather or not, how we should gather, and your position more particularly on mass and why some people in the evangelical sphere right now seem to not be very happy with you, Toby.
There's some people that just don't, they're not happy with you.
All right, so that's it.
So let's go ahead and conclude our episode.
As we conclude, Toby, let people know how they can follow you, your ministry, keep up with the great work that you're doing.
I am at, you can find my work with Cross Politic at crosspolitic.com.
All our shows are there.
There's also an app that's called the Fight Laugh Beast, Fight Laugh Beast Network.
If you want to download the app, find all the other shows that are going on there.
I'm at Christ Church in Moscow.
Our website is Christ.
Kirk, K I R K.com.
And so sermons and various things are up there.
And then lastly, I blog at Toby J Sumpter.com.
Great.
Thanks, Toby.
Bless you, brother, for your ministry.
We're grateful for you.
Thanks, Joel.
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