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June 10, 2023 - The Matt Walsh Show

01:12:01

What is a Woman? Reunion

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	Hey everybody, this is Matt Walsh.
	You're about to listen to our What Is A Woman reunion event.
	Michael Knowles, the director of the film, Justin Falk, and I sit down with some of the main heroes of the film to talk about what has happened over the past year since the release of the film.
	Plus, the anonymous YouPen swimmer finally unveils herself.
	A lot going on.
	Thanks for listening and enjoy the show.
	One year ago, transgender ideology was spreading like a pandemic, infecting schools, workplaces, and government policy all around the country.
	Few people understood the enormity of what was happening.
	Fewer people knew how to talk about it.
	And fewer people still knew what to do to stop it.
	And then, Daily Wire Plus released Matt Walsh's What Is a Woman, our biggest production to date.
	Bringing hundreds of thousands of you into the Daily Wire membership community, which now tops 1 million people.
	What is a woman, Joe?
	What is a woman?
	That documentary was fantastic.
	What is a woman, in many ways, defined 2022.
	On social media, the conversation surrounding What is a Woman garnered over a quarter billion views, and the film has been watched in 70 countries.
	It was even screened by the Nigerian Mission to the United Nations during the meeting of the annual commission on the status of women.
	After What is a Woman, Dictionary.com named Woman the Word of the Year.
	Can you please define for me what is a woman?
	What is a woman?
	Oh, now again that's a whole other thing.
	Not only did the movie reach a wide audience, the film led to a 1,000% spike in discussions of the child mutilation procedures performed in the name of transgenderism.
	This groundswell of public support then moved from living rooms and auditoriums into the streets and into state capitals.
	Matt hosted the largest rally in the nation against radical gender ideology.
	He testified before the Tennessee House, and he stood by as Mississippi Governor Tate Reeves signed a ban on child mutilation into law.
	As Matt continued to expose the harms of chemical castration drugs, cross-sex hormones, and the surgical removal of healthy body parts from children, More and more state legislators began to step up to protect children and ban these barbaric practices.
	Now, one year since this historic release, we have some never-before-seen footage from What Is A Woman, and we'll be joined by the heroes of the film, who will bring us some important updates to the story.
	Now that everybody in the world has seen What Is A Woman, I'm very pleased to be joined for a reunion by the stars of the movie.
	We have the director here, Justin Falk.
	We have the on-screen star of the movie, the one and only Matt Walsh.
	I am tepidly pleased to be joined by you two.
	I'm extraordinarily pleased to be joined by both of you, Dr. Miriam Grossman and Scott Nugent.
	First of all, thank you both for coming in for this one year anniversary of the film.
	Dr. Grossman, I'd like to start with you.
	You are a psychiatrist, you're an author, you have a new book coming out, Lost in Transnation.
	Very important topic, and I'm a sucker for a good pun, so I very much look forward to that book.
	You're still practicing.
	The science seems pretty clear to me, and yet so many people in your field have affirmed the transgender ideology, especially for children.
	Where does the field stand?
	Well, I think it's important to begin with just acknowledging the tremendous pain that's going on in homes all over the country because of this issue.
	And I think that that's sometimes lost among all the discussions that we have on this topic, is the fact that parents are ambushed, they're caught unaware, until one day at dinner their child announces that they're the opposite sex, and they would like a different name, pronouns, and they would like an appointment to go get hormones.
	And this is catastrophic for many families.
	And it ends up being the most difficult thing they've ever been through.
	And the point that I want to drive home here is that this is a man-made catastrophe.
	This is man-made and that, I mean, my goal right now is to educate families so that they are prepared before this happens.
	They need the education and the tools At their fingertips before this happens in their families.
	So if their kid is two or five or whatever age they are, they have to understand that this may be in the cards for them.
	Their kid may one day come home and make this announcement and tell their parents, you know what, if you're not willing to support me in this journey, I'm going to find a family that is willing to.
	And parents have to be prepared.
	So that's really the gist of what my book is about.
	I think a lot of people, they just hear about this issue on TV, not from Matt Walsh, but they'll hear about it from the establishment media, and it'll all be glossed over, and they'll be told that if you don't engage in the transgender ideology, you're harming your children, your children could kill themselves.
	You don't want that, do you?
	Okay, go along to get along.
	Scott, you have You've experienced the transgender ideology more intimately than most people have.
	You've seen this up close.
	Your testimony in the movie, it's the most powerful part of the movie.
	I think it resonates for a lot of people to see this really up close.
	Well, what I try to do in the movie is just tell the truth.
	And, you know, when the narrative is talked to by conservatives or by people that we think are going to have a certain position, it's gotten glossed over with the idea that, hey, they don't really know what's going on.
	But as a lesbian, as somebody that has medically transitioned, I kind of am the rainbow.
	When I'm coming up and telling people that, listen, all seven studies that came out that said that medically transitioning children is beneficial have been retracted or modified.
	The only one long-term study that's out there finds that these kids are going to be more suicidal seven to ten years after.
	So we're giving these kids three, four times the doses of normal hormones They're suicidal.
	They're going to be the most suicidal after.
	We have Europe shutting things down, left and right.
	We have Sweden.
	The spines of girls aren't fusing together properly because of puberty blockers.
	We are nuts right now.
	And I think it's funny, in the last year, it's been the worst year of my life.
	I've been kicked off of Twitter three times.
	I've been fired by my non-binary Manager who's married to a transgender woman.
	I've been kicked off of YouTube.
	I mean, my life has been a nightmare.
	And I, of all people, have been suppressed the most with my word.
	Because I make the most sense.
	And that's the truth.
	Right, you're telling the truth emotionally and the medical truth as well.
	And that's why, you know, you and I and everyone who's doing that, it gets into a lot, we're simply correcting the misinformation that exists.
	Absolutely.
	And that is my concern, that parents have misinformation from the schools, from their pediatricians, from their therapists, and from our government.
	Absolutely.
	And you talked about the dinner table, you know, where they come out.
	Well, at that point, Dr. Grossman, the hook is in.
	You know, from my perspective, I've been there.
	I never fit in.
	I was same-sex attracted.
	I skipped a grade.
	All these kids don't feel like they fit in.
	They're either autistic, or mentally gifted, or mentally ill, or abused families.
	All the things that we don't want to admit because we think is so transphobic, but it's the truth.
	They don't fit in.
	And so we're telling them that they get a fit in by all these people that we're supposed to believe.
	So that hook is in.
	By the time they go home, you're dead in the water.
	Right.
	Dead in the water.
	That's right.
	By the time the announcement is made, you know, it's already, it's going to be tough.
	It's going to be tough.
	And they're being, the kids are given a framework for understanding Well, oftentimes it's just normal childhood emotions, especially adolescence, puberty.
	You're feeling not at home in your own body.
	You're feeling like something's not exactly right that's normal.
	And then the trans ideology comes along and says to the kids, well, okay, you're feeling that way.
	Here's how to make sense of it.
	And then it all kind of comes in place.
	And once that, to Scott's point, once that locks in place, it's like the parents are fine people.
	Well, but you know what?
	It really starts years before that.
	It starts when they're three, four years old, and their nursery school teacher reads them, I Am Jazz, and it says in there, I'm a girl who was born in a boy's body with a girl's brain.
	You tell that to a three or four year old, that's going to stick.
	But why are we telling kids that?
	I mean, there has to be a why.
	And the why is this.
	I think this really enlightens people.
	In 2015, there were 22 kids in the state of Texas that were on puberty blockers, on a four-year spread that yields about $4.6 million worth of profit.
	Two years later, after the governor started to get $2.5 million worth of donations, It went to 4,000%.
	That 4,000% went from $4.6 million to just under $100 million just in that little area.
	So why is it that we're medically transitioning kids?
	It's because we're enlightened?
	Or it's because we have a whole bunch of people that are in these business meetings saying that, hey, we're going to have the unicorn farts, the glitter bombs, the gay people are going to be right behind us yelling and screaming, telling everybody that they're transphobic.
	We're going to be the light.
	Everybody's going to buy our product.
	This is going to be great.
	And we're going to be protected for about 10 years.
	We're going to make so much money.
	We're going to write a check afterwards, and we're going to be done.
	Those people that are doing that right now need to go to prison.
	Because you're citing these studies of all the promised benefits of the transition for adults and especially now for kids, they're not coming true.
	And the data that we have before us, including the largest data sets, the biggest studies on it, are actually showing that either they don't accomplish those goals, or sometimes they undermine those goals.
	And we're talking about anxiety, depression, suicidality.
	And all of this, we are told, is in the name of inclusion.
	We'll look at people who have been excluded from the conversation in the mainstream, and the particular vitriol that you, Scott, have been met with.
	So now we're at the beginning of Pride Month.
	What a great way to kick off Pride Month, all here together, telling the truth about this.
	Well, first of all, let's talk about the studies.
	The studies that tell us what happens to these children.
	There aren't any.
	Well, I'm going to interrupt.
	Oh, go ahead.
	We do have, I mean, we have studies from the earlier cohort, not from the ROGD, these kids right now, but from the earlier cohort we have studies.
	They're very poor studies.
	Very poor.
	And this is part of the misinformation that parents are getting when you go to your pediatrician or you go to the guidance counselor at school and they say, oh, you know, oh, this is all, you know, established and well-researched and there's a consensus, there's a medical consensus.
	Dr. Admiral Levine says to the whole country from Washington, there's a medical consensus.
	No, there is not.
	There is a debate raging, a fierce debate, an international debate that is raging between medical and psychological professionals on this point of how do we help these kids.
	And as Scott just mentioned, Western Europe, Scandinavia, there's now a number of countries who are doing a 180, and they are severely restricting, if not banning, these medical interventions that in this country, you can get in 20 minutes.
	Our president just said that, hey, we need to trans younger, faster, and include surgeries like I did that have a 67% complication rate.
	That my doctor charged my insurance company $257,000 just for him.
	A total of about $357,000 before complications.
	After complications, we're up to $1.3 million.
	of about $357,000 before complications.
	After complications, we're up to 1.3 million.
	I get reoccurring infections four last year.
	And that's going to end my life early.
	This is a big deal.
	This is also why, I'm curious what you guys think about this, but the question of studies, because it's correct that there aren't any reliable studies.
	But I tend to think that once we get into this back and forth about we need studies, there are no studies, it's already a losing game in some ways.
	Because my answer is always, when someone says, well, look at the studies, I don't care about the studies.
	Because number one, this is common sense.
	This is just a basic fundamental fact.
	That a young boy who says he's a girl is not a girl, so I don't need to study on that.
	And I also think that there's another point about this that I don't hear raised very often, which is that The claim that we need to transition kids now, because if we don't, they're going to commit suicide.
	Well, if that's true, and if it's also true that there's always been all these trans people out there, and they just were, you know, this is not a social contagion, there's always been trans people, but they just didn't feel comfortable coming out, well then, if we look back through history, we should find, historically, for centuries, just kids killing themselves Constantly, because they weren't being affirmed, and that didn't even exist.
	And yet we don't.
	That didn't exist up until very recently.
	The childhood suicide phenomenon is very modern.
	Kids didn't start doing that until very recently.
	So, you know, you have all, in your respective fields, pushed back against this very strongly.
	But we are here at Pride Month.
	It's the beginning of Pride Month.
	Scott, you've pushed back on that front as much as anybody.
	Well, what I find is that most gays and lesbians and even transgender people, when you get us alone, we all think that medically transitioning children is nuts.
	We all think that the LGBTQ needs to be out of the school system.
	Unfortunately, there's not very many people that are saying that out loud.
	So I came up with this idea.
	The whole month of Pride, we're doing an anti-counter Pride protest run by gays and lesbians and transgender people and gays against groomers.
	And we're starting what's called the Rainbow Rebellion.
	I have hundreds of videos of all trans, gays, lesbians, bisexuals saying one thing.
	LGBTQ, get away from kids.
	We don't belong there.
	We're a soft place to fall for adults and adults only.
	Perverts and money mongers, get away from children.
	And that's coming from the rainbow, my friend.
	Right, right.
	Rainbow.
	Expect to be excluded more than just about anybody.
	You know, I don't stop.
	I don't think people have probably gotten that by now.
	You're not going to stop me.
	Yeah.
	Unfortunately, though, we do have to stop right now.
	We have to move on to the next segment.
	So wonderful to be with both of you, Dr. Grossman, Scott.
	You two, you're sticking around.
	We've got a lot more coming up in just a moment.
	Do you eat inside the home or do you eat outside?
	Or is this basically just for sleeping?
	She's saying first she must clean inside of the house every day.
	She is saying first she must clean inside of the house every day and they also cook
	inside of the house.
	And after cooking she gives the young children the food supply and she is the one to tell
	them time to sleep.
	Is it hard work to keep the home?
	No?
	No.
	Keeping the house clean and taking care of the young children, that is their duty, so they see it's not much work.
	What do you think is the secret to a happy marriage?
	[speaking foreign language]
	Okay, number one, having kids.
	That is to make a family to run smoothly because always a man need the children.
	If you have kid, that's number one.
	Secondly, you take care your husband very well.
	Yeah, where I come from, there are a lot of people who think that the secret to be happy is to not have kids.
	[BLANK_AUDIO]
	In my culture, I come from lots of people are very depressed.
	[MUSIC]
	In my culture, I come from lots of people are very depressed.
	Do you have depression here?
	[MUSIC]
	No.
	No depression?
	No depression.
	People are happy?
	People are very happy and friendly.
	Can we bring them over here?
	Can they teach in our schools?
	I didn't see any therapists.
	Yeah, we were saying we should have invited them.
	Paul was our translator.
	It would have been nice to have him here at the roundtable.
	Yeah.
	Hard to get a hold of him.
	Well worth the flight over here, I think.
	It was...
	Probably the highlight of the movie.
	And I'll tell you, sometimes around here when people go on filming excursions, sometimes I get a little envious.
	You know, they go to Italy or something, they go to the United Kingdom.
	When you guys went to Africa, in the heat and the bugs, I was not envious.
	But it was worth it.
	A lot of flies.
	A lot of flies.
	It would have been even less envious if you were in the security meetings that we had here at Daily Wire.
	We had probably three of them where we had to have conversations about, like, what do you do if you get kidnapped by terrorists and that sort of thing.
	And we were informed that Jeremy informed us he wouldn't pay a ransom, at least not for me, so just how it is.
	We were excited to go, but the one thing going there was, we didn't really know, it was a little bit of a fishing expedition because we didn't know exactly what they would say.
	And the whole idea was to Take these Western ideas about gender and hold it up in front of these people and just see how they react to it.
	Pretty good idea of how they would react, but of course there's no way to know.
	And also, Western culture has, the actual real ideological colonialism that happens on the part of the left is so pervasive that it's impossible to know how far these ideas have reached.
	And the fear, I think, comes from this ironic fact that when the Libs are promoting gender ideology, they'll often try to couch it in indigenous culture.
	So they'll say, actually, the indigenous peoples of Africa and America, they've long understood that gender is a spectrum.
	They have the concept of two-spiritedness.
	But then you go and talk to the indigenous people, Well, I think that was the root of the idea itself.
	I think Matt had this idea to go to one of these places where we often hear from progressives like, oh no, this is normal.
	Actually, it's happening over here.
	Actually, it's everywhere.
	And we just wanted to test that theory out a bit.
	And we had looked at different places around the world that we could go.
	We settled on the Maasai people because they're fairly open to outsiders coming in and talking to them.
	So we thought that might be a good thing and not be murdered when we showed up.
	You didn't go to Papua New Guinea.
	Yeah, exactly.
	No, we had talked about going to talk to the Aborigines.
	And Australia had really crazy COVID restrictions, so we couldn't get in there.
	But the Maasai people were perfect for this.
	And to Matt's point, we didn't know exactly what they were going to say.
	But it was refreshing to hear their point of view and that they weren't bogged down by all this crazy ideology.
	I mean, they're worried about other things.
	They're worried about lions coming in and eating their people.
	They're not worried about the crazy notions of gender that we hear every day.
	And they had an important perspective, too.
	Talk about not knowing what they would say.
	Which is, you talk to a lot of even conservative people in America.
	You say, what is a woman?
	And they'll say, two X chromosomes.
	What is a woman?
	It's just a uterus or something.
	Their answer was a little different than that.
	Their answer was, the woman is the one who does the duty of the woman.
	It was tied to family.
	It was tied to procreation and family.
	Yeah.
	That was their first answer.
	When we first asked the question, they started talking about the duties and responsibilities of a woman versus a man.
	And the reason I answer that way is because at first it didn't even occur to them that we would be asking on a more basic level than that.
	They just assumed that we knew that.
	But it did, once we got past the basic stuff and they explained that, you know, women don't have penises, then it always did come back to responsibility.
	I thought it was really interesting in that clip, asking her if she's happy and her first answer was, Yeah, taking care of my kids and I'm taking care of my husband, of course I'm happy.
	Which is actually, we talked to Carl Truman in the film also, who wrote the book Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, and he makes this point in the book that our conception of happiness is very modern, and it's all tied to how we feel, but he makes the point in the book that if you go back to your great-grandfather and you ask him, are you happy, he's going to immediately talk about his job, caring for his family, and if he's doing that, of course he's happy.
	And so he makes that point in the book, and then we go to a tribe that essentially lives in the past, and that's exactly how they think.
	Now, my favorite moments in the film were really people who were not so happy, and they didn't come back here for the reunion.
	I don't know, maybe their responses are lost in the mail or something.
	My favorite one Was that professor guy who kept on getting so angry that you brought up the notion of the truth?
	I also loved the pixie haircut lady who entertained your suggestion that because you watched Sex and the City you might really be a woman.
	With the hostile interviews, one How'd you keep a straight face?
	Two, how did you keep most of them in the room most of the time?
	Three, did the ones who didn't catch on, did they ever figure it out?
	I think, yeah, there was always, it was, one thing we discovered is like psychologically people don't like to get up and leave.
	So we were able to exploit that.
	People will stand, the people will sit there for much longer than you think.
	I think also their position is so crazy that it's hard for them You know, it's hard for them to figure out exactly what we're going with, but I think
	The whole point was we kept a neutral sort of position, and we just asked questions.
	And as long as we could bring it back to the question every time, they would still stand up.
	But there'd always be that moment where you could tell where something flips in their minds, and they start to realize this isn't exactly how they thought it was going to go.
	And it's always when, like the first time they get a real question, not a hard question, but just a real one.
	And it was often a question that I didn't think Would send up any alarm bells for them?
	Just something really basic, like one question that tripped them up a lot was, okay, what is the difference between sex and gender?
	You claim there's a difference.
	What is it?
	Can you explain it?
	And I think for every one of our hostile interviews, that question was, Difficult for them in a way that I didn't think it would be.
	And by the way, Matt's been pretty modest about this too, because I do feel that people would normally get up and
	leave at a certain situation.
	But he just has an amazing ability to engage but not show anything.
	So they're engaging with Matt, but they're trying to read him, and they're not getting anything.
	And that just kind of like, it just prolongs things a bit.
	Psychopathy is, I think, the word.
	Absolutely, yeah.
	And so I think that actually extended things out a bit.
	But what was interesting is that we went in there, and And we basically broke into their bubble.
	A lot of these people are not challenged.
	You mentioned the professor.
	He spends all day talking to people that just nod at everything that he says.
	And so the moment he gets asked a real question, which, again, to what Matt just said, was a very basic question, he just unraveled.
	It was fascinating to watch these conversations take place.
	I just want to say, Justin also had the hard job for this in many ways, but especially because in these really, you know, the awkward interviews, the great thing is once the interview was over, I get to just leave, and he has to stay there and clean up all the equipment and stuff, which was interesting, especially for like the congressman who stormed out, but we're in his office, so he stormed out, but he's there.
	And after it was over, I said, OK, I'll see you guys in the car.
	Matt hits the road.
	He's getting a hamburger, and we're in there for another 20 minutes.
	Sorry, Congressman.
	We'll be out by evening.
	A lot of those interviews were very funny, especially the poor professor guy.
	You can't help but laugh at him.
	You can't help but laugh at their befuddlement.
	One of the interviews was a little bit less funny, and it was one of the people who had actually some answers to your questions.
	They were just really pretty dark answers.
	I'm thinking about Marcy Bowers.
	Marcy Bowers seems to know what he's doing.
	To me, that's a hell of a lot spookier than someone who is just a little bit confused.
	Has there been any update with Dr. Bowers?
	Well, and you're right, because that was one, it's probably the only person we talked to on that side who was willing to answer questions.
	And he did show a willingness to sort of admit what this is.
	And now, as far as I know, Marcy Bowers leads, is now the president of WPATH.
	And at the time, he was in the organization, WPATH is the World Professional Association of Transgender Health, which is like the number one trans organization in the world.
	They set the standard that all the other medical organizations follow, and now he's in charge of that organization, which happened after When we talked to Marcy Bowers, Marcy was on par with breaking the world record of the most gender transition surgeries within months, and so I assume that's already taken place by now.
	That is a dark and dubious title to hold.
	There were dark things in that interview that don't make it into the film, just because we've got to cut down for time.
	And also, it went in directions that didn't directly have to do with the topic, so we couldn't put it in the film.
	Can I ask?
	But some of those are.
	Yeah, well, one example that comes immediately to mind is he admitted to cutting off a person's penis who was not gender dysphoric.
	And the complaint of the man who wanted his penis amputated was that it was ugly.
	And so we had this conversation about where Marcy Bowers is justifying cutting off the ugly penis, and I'm asking questions about it.
	And he says, well, it was really ugly.
	It was a really ugly penis.
	100% that happened.
	Yeah, which is ironic, because Matt had just brought the point of transableism.
	And if somebody comes in to Marcy and says, hey, I don't like my arm.
	I want you to cut it off.
	I have another appendage.
	I just don't like it.
	That's a real body integrity disorder.
	Right, and Matt had just brought that up previously, not minutes before, and then talks about this other patient that wants to get rid of his penis because it's ugly.
	And Marcy even says, oh it was ugly.
	I remember that moment.
	It looked like, what did Marcy describe it as?
	A rotten toadstool.
	So, we had a lot of rich description in that interview.
	It's amazing that the arguments all differ.
	You know, I'm secretly a woman.
	I have a toadstool of an appendage.
	I have this, I have that.
	But the prescription is always the same.
	Chop it off.
	Sterilize yourself.
	Try to become something that is not in accord with your nature.
	A lot of pushback against all of this, including against the doctors who are a little bit more on our side.
	Dr. Deborah So, who was in the movie, was spied upon giving her interview.
	There was a radical gender ideologue outside who accosted Debra after the interview and demanded that she delete the footage.
	Yeah, I'll let Justin talk about that because I know that, but it did prove exactly the point she was making in the interview.
	Yeah, it was bizarre because we were, she was talking about how you're not allowed to talk about certain things in this community.
	And we had just finished the interview and she was confronted by this person and this person demanded that we, didn't like the conversation and demanded that we delete all the footage.
	Is it that you didn't appreciate what I was saying?
	So I'm not trying to offend anyone with what I'm saying.
	I would honestly like to understand.
	Well, I am a scientist.
	You're comparing sex researchers to Nazis?
	I mean, I appreciate your feedback.
	I wish that you would consider the things that I say based on the merit as opposed to it being an emotional evaluation.
	I do, and I'm coming from a place of, as I said, I grew up in the gay community.
	I see a lot of what's happening right now is anti-gay.
	Okay.
	Would you like a copy of my book?
	Are you sure?
	We are now joined by a paragon of patience.
	I think more patience than any of us would have had, Dr. Debra.
	So, as well as by Sarah Stockton, another hero of the movie.
	Debra, gotta start with you, because you know, cis Gender women they're some of my very favorite people actually and you were castigated for being such a maligned person and you were attacked rhetorically at least by this person who had been listening in and Because you came to certain scientific conclusions Called you a Nazi.
	Yeah, clearly the face of a Nazi if you couldn't tell.
	I mean, I literally had just finished the interview with Matt and Justin and I was getting my jacket.
	We were going out to film some B-roll outside and all I could think was, What was I just saying?
	Like, wasn't I just saying this exact thing?
	And it was just very surreal to me.
	In that clip, I was very Canadian in terms of how polite I was being.
	Trust me, if that happened today, I would not be that nice.
	I feel that my perspective and my experiences over the last year and a half since we filmed that have changed quite a bit in terms of how I see the activists.
	I mean, I before came to the table really in trying to build bridges,
	trying to have compassion and understanding, and trying to compromise,
	and really trying to meet them halfway.
	And I've realized that it's just not possible.
	It's not going to happen.
	These people are not interested in being reasonable in coming to any common ground.
	You know, I see Matt getting a lot of flack for some of his commentary, and
	you as well.
	And honestly, I think the people criticizing you guys are way out of line,
	because they do not know what it is like.
	They don't know what all of us have had to deal with, with the things that we say,
	and the harassment we face.
	It's constant, it's unrelenting, it is unhinged.
	And so, yeah, I mean, the only thing I think I would have done differently is
	maybe not offered my book.
	I thought that was great.
	God, I--
	And we talked about this in the green room, but I thought you handled it perfectly.
	You handled it perfectly.
	It was so impressive.
	Thank you.
	And the way you're feeling about it kind of reminds me in some ways of the entire film, because this is a conversation we had while we were filming it, where I would go to Justin and say, I feel like I need to yell at these people.
	Instead of just sitting there and listening to them, I need to go, we need to do one where I can just go yell at them.
	But we always pulled back from that, because we realized, no, we want to We're being reasonable.
	Let them be unreasonable.
	And that contrast is really revealing, which you really find in microcosm in that clip there.
	So you've had this change in your mind in terms of at least what is possible in communicating.
	And I agree with you.
	We've all been in political fights and the pushback from the pro-trans activists.
	It is Another thing entirely.
	It is not different in degree, it's different in kind.
	And Sarah, you've obviously had a major shift in your interviews here because you once, you're a marriage and family therapist, you once supported, advocated for... Worked with Marcy.
	You worked with Marcy Bowers, the head of WPATH and one of the people most clearly pushing transing the kids, and you supported those policies and then you changed your mind.
	Yeah.
	And I think what was really weird about the documentary, it's not even just anti-trans, I got articles written about me.
	They came from me around the furry segment.
	And they wrote an article in which, I mean, claimed that I was lying to them because I couldn't give them a name of who I was speaking about.
	And I was just like, wow, we're not even interested in the truth.
	Like, you said, we're not even... Is it a HIPAA violation?
	Yes, and I said, you know where I live and where I practice, so it's a process of elimination of schools.
	So I think that's been really concerning, and since then I get calls, I would say, at least five a day from parents and counselors, and it's way worse than I thought it was a year ago.
	So what are these people calling you to ask?
	So one of the big things is I got out of treating trans for about six, seven years.
	So now to be back in it, now I would say I'm back.
	Eighty percent of my clients are dealing with this stuff, but they are calling me because schools are transitioning their kids without parents' consent.
	They are getting placed in gym classes with other genders when they're very young, getting taught this without Any medical backing, they're going to, you know, like, oh, yes, you are something.
	It's not even, hey, you're going to be presenting as something as trans.
	It's no, you just decide and you will have.
	So I have to explain to 17 year olds that, no, like you will not be a male.
	You will be presenting as one.
	And they don't understand that.
	And so I'm very concerned with that.
	And I mean, I mean, people think I'm lying, but my son is a dinosaur in his class.
	What?
	Like, what's going on?
	This is way beyond, you know, reasonable.
	And I think my thing that's been, I'm not happy about is...
	We're still the main practitioners talking about it.
	It's hard that Matt has to be the ones that are speaking about politically.
	I have to hang out with the Nazis in order to talk about it.
	We're a dangerous bunch over here.
	Yeah, I knew going to you twice that I couldn't pretend that I didn't know the first time.
	But we need to say something.
	I don't know what is exactly going on.
	I have some counselors that are calling me, but more countries, like Singapore, Italy, have been emailing me asking for help.
	But not professionals here.
	And I don't know what it's going to take to wake up.
	Because we have to do it.
	I mean, I went on Jordan Peterson because we're going to start getting sued.
	And I don't know when we're going to Right.
	If you can't be pressured by the online mob, you'll be pressured by the financial mob.
	You'll be pressured by the legal mob.
	You'll be pressured by all of these things.
	What strikes me about the two of you is you're so moderate.
	You're so open-minded to these views.
	You're really not ideological.
	And yet it seems like perhaps because of that, people are going after you with particular vigor.
	The crazy thing is I find is they don't even represent, well I can't speak for you, but for me they don't represent my views at all in terms of when they try to argue against me.
	It's very much the straw man, my position.
	And at first I thought maybe they just don't understand what I'm saying or maybe they are Misguided, but I really think in some cases they intentionally misrepresent us because they don't want to have to engage with us They don't want to have to actually understand our position and look into it and try to understand the nuance It's so much easier just to make up a boogeyman and then attack that and then also get all their friends and their colleagues to come after us because when you create this horrible creation of somebody or of your critics and you demonize them it's much easier to get people amped up and angry and
	Now, what about the colleagues?
	Because we talk a lot about maybe parents calling you, maybe patients calling you.
	You are so prominent in terms of your fields.
	Do you have colleagues calling you saying, hey, keep up the good fight, hey, I'm on your side, hey, I'd like to help out, or are you standing alone?
	I tell people, I joke, that I'm the mafia boss and I don't know what of what.
	But people call me, well, what are we going to do about it?
	What's the next step?
	I talk to Matt.
	Step one, I guess, I don't know what's next.
	But yeah, I do get a lot of calls saying, well, what can we do?
	Is there a group?
	Is there something?
	And I think we're developing it.
	I've been working a lot with Stella O'Malley in Ireland because they have, in gen spec, they seem to be doing something.
	But we don't have a professional group yet here.
	But are these people willing to go public?
	Remains to be seen.
	They want to be on a list.
	They want to be on the list.
	On a secret list.
	Yes.
	Because I get the same question all the time, what can we do about it?
	And the answer is, well, you can start by saying something.
	Yeah.
	You know, rather than, because it's, if we're out here and we have the mob descending on us and ripping us to shreds, and you're like hiding off in the bushes somewhere, it's like, hey, good job out there.
	Atta boy, buddy.
	Right.
	I think we tend to think of this in general terms.
	What can society do?
	What can everyone do?
	What can you individually do, and especially if you're in a professional field that deals with this, just to say anything publicly to indicate that you're one of the sane ones would be a huge first step at least.
	And I am surprised that it seems like the sports is going the farthest, and I wouldn't have guessed that, but it's because they're speaking out.
	There's five of them at least, you know?
	I don't have, I mean, maybe a couple of us therapists, right?
	But that has surprised me that that's what might take it farther is that in jail.
	You know, you have insight not only on the issue of sex and gender, you also have incredible insight into media, because we are now about to be joined by people who are fighting this battle in the realm of women's sports, and from the perspective of one of the groups that is most attacked by transgender ideology, and that is young women.
	Let's say a male says, I'm a woman.
	Doesn't bother you that he says that?
	Do you think it's true, though?
	No, I don't think it's true, but I will not disrespect a person.
	I think for probably most of human history, this would have been the most uncontroversial question in the world, right?
	Like, what is a woman?
	Well, we know what a woman is.
	So why is it controversial now?
	Because you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, or you say the wrong thing.
	Be respectful and abide by what they would prefer to be called as.
	I don't want to be a man, and I don't want to date a man that's a woman, or a woman that's a man.
	But, you know what?
	It's each their own.
	America landed it free, you know, so...
	Whatever makes you happy, you know, you do what you do, so long as you're not hurting anybody in the process, you know?
	If you can't respect somebody for who they is, you can't get along with nobody in this world, you feel me?
	Like, what you got going on don't bother me, like, at all.
	So I feel like it's kind of messed up when people hate crimes or, uh...
	Gender bash, or I guess what it's called.
	People are free to do what they want and be who they want now that they could never have done 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.
	That's very clear.
	Are you a conservative pundit?
	What's that?
	Are you a conservative pundit?
	I'm conservative, yeah.
	Okay, well thank you so much for that conversation.
	The main question I think we face as a society with this issue is what is a woman?
	Wow, that's... I think... It's...
	I don't know.
	Biologically capable of giving birth.
	I'm light and love.
	I'm not going to put definitions on anything.
	It's not my job.
	It's not what I've been put on earth for.
	I'm just going to put love and light everywhere I go.
	And whatever you, you, you, you, you decide.
	What you think you want to be, what you are, what you decide tomorrow.
	I'm still going to love.
	In the most simplest terms, a human being that can carry and deliver a baby.
	We've got two paragons of light and love with us right now, two heroes of the fight to protect women's sports.
	Before we get to that though, I don't want to get too off track, but I feel we have to address the 180 pound naked
	man in the room.
	180 pounds is generous by the way.
	I was trying to be polite.
	How'd you meet him?
	I was forced into that.
	It's like a form of workplace violence, really.
	I was forced to have that conversation with a naked man.
	Forced by one Mr. Justin Falk.
	Yeah.
	We saw the guy walking by, and Justin said, we should talk to that guy.
	And I said, no, we shouldn't.
	And next thing I know, I look over, and he's talking to the guy and motioning me over.
	And that's what happened.
	I'm like, Matt, you've got to commit to this.
	If we're going to make this film, a naked guy's got to be part of this at some point, and here's our opportunity.
	So let's go talk to this guy.
	I'm really glad that you guys did not curse us with the wide shot on that interview.
	That was relatively close up.
	Ladies, wonderful to have you with us on the topic of protecting women's sports.
	Selina, we've seen you in the movie.
	You were a high school athlete.
	You have now been one of the main leaders of the fight to keep men out of the women's locker room.
	Paula, we have not seen you before.
	We've heard from you.
	But we have not seen you before because you were obscured.
	You were in shadows in the movie for fear of retribution here.
	And now the shadows are gone and you're telling us exactly who you are.
	You are a former UPenn swimmer who Swam on the team with that dainty swimmer William Leah Thomas.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and so I think one of my biggest things was, at that time, I was still a student at Penn.
	You know, obviously, you can't go to the university.
	Like, the university you go to, you can't go and bash them publicly while you're still a student there.
	I'm a year removed from that now, and I think also there was pressure from my family to do the traditional thing and go, you know, be quiet, sit at your desk, do a corporate job.
	And it's taken about a year of discussions within my family to realize it's time to come out.
	So here I am, no shadows.
	Did you fear reprisal?
	Yeah, I mean, I had already received a lot of backlash internally from people I knew at school from just speaking out anonymously.
	From classmates or from administrators?
	Classmates and teammates and professors also that knew about it as well.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	Wow, but at this point, Kat's out of the bag.
	You feel you've got to come out and speak up.
	Yeah, and I think people like Selena obviously inspires me, and I think you've done so much in the fight and litigation, and it's been wonderful.
	And I'm also from Connecticut as well, so that does hit a little close to home, and I've known about her story.
	And just knowing that we need to stand up for other girls.
	I'm not swimming anymore.
	I'm never going to compete competitively again, most likely, so it's not about me and it's about everyone else that needs to be protected.
	And obviously she's got a huge part of that fight.
	She's doing such great things already and I want to join her.
	Selina, I remember when I came across your story years ago, I guess at this point, and you were running in Connecticut, high school athlete, and you start to have your accolades taken away by men.
	Yeah, I had to compete against at least one biological male throughout all four years of high school.
	After a year and a half, one that competed as a man for three seasons, I had to switch over to the girls' team and began to dominate in the girls' field.
	And I never had a fair race when I raced against those two athletes.
	We knew before we even got into the blocks, before we even got on the bus to get to the meet, that we knew that we were going to come third and beyond, that there was no way that we were going to be able to come in first.
	And they would be Done with the 100 meter dash, chest bumping each other while the rest of us girls were at the 80 meter mark.
	It was just never a fair contest.
	So then what impelled you to bring this to court?
	I mean, you have in many ways been leading the legal fight on this issue.
	Why didn't you just sort of say, okay, well, I guess I'll take second place, I guess I'll take third place, I don't want to rock the boat.
	So my mother and I actually began fighting it locally.
	We did it old school with the petition going around to other people at meets.
	And once I lost out on qualifying for the New England Championships in the indoor season in 2019, when I was at that meet and two other events, I ended up getting all New England honors in those two events.
	So I was forced into the sideline in the 55 meter dash.
	That was my last straw and I said that we need to ask for these policies to be restored and let women have
	their fair chance at sports.
	And filing the lawsuit was last resort.
	We talked to school administrators, legislators, we talked to the CAC.
	They didn't want to deal with this issue. They shifted around the blame.
	And it's just, we had no choice but to file the tunnel line complaint and then the lawsuit.
	So you didn't rush to court.
	You tried to pursue these other avenues.
	Those were shut off to you.
	So, I mean, you've been following these cases as long as I have.
	We've got a kind of a conservative court, but the court also seems to be affirming the transgender ideology.
	How is this going to turn out?
	I'm not sure exactly how it's going to turn out, but I'm hoping that we will have a resolution in our favor someday and that there will be some out there that will take a stand to protect women's sports because it's the right thing to do.
	I have a question for you, Selena.
	The first year that you had to race against a male, what year was that?
	That was 2017, my freshman year of high school.
	So I'm curious for you.
	That's years before most people really woke up to this issue.
	So it was a very lonely fight early on.
	So how did that feel early on when you were struggling against this and hardly anyone was talking about it?
	And how do you feel the progress has been culturally on this issue?
	Well, I warned everyone that this wasn't going to be an isolated incident when I started speaking out in 2018.
	Now it's appearing in almost every sport at every level internationally, but I'm so glad that there are other girls out there like Paula that have decided to stand up and join me in the fight because it's going to be much easier to fight this with the more voices that we have.
	Paula, the man who swam on your swim team, I think got a lot of national attention because it was just so obvious.
	He's just a big, giant guy.
	And what was most disturbing about Will Thomas' rise as a student-athlete was not even him taking the trophies and him appearing in the leotard or whatever.
	The leotard.
	The leotard, as it were.
	Wow, I'm a sucker for a leotard.
	Call it whatever you want.
	I was most disturbed by the other girls on the team who had to pretend that it was all okay.
	Oh, yeah, I mean, I mentioned this in an interview I did with Matt, but the brainwashing the university put on, like, I honestly give the University of Pennsylvania props.
	There was a girl on the team who was so upset, crying about it, saying, like, she's had the same events as Leah, and went to go meet with someone in the athletic department and came back from the meeting and was like, we're going to be so supportive, we're going to just spread love.
	I don't know what went on in that meeting, and there was meetings that they had with the whole team that worked, and I mentioned this also with Matt that, you know, there was a night after they met with us, and I called my family on the phone, and I said, I can't talk about this anymore.
	I said, I need to be quiet.
	I need to just, and I literally stayed in my room for two and a half days without leaving, because I was so scared that, like, someone was going to come up to me and say, how dare you speak about this publicly or anonymously to the media or any way at all?
	It was just, like, they did such a great job of instilling fear in everyone.
	One of the most disturbing things from the film for me was when you talked about how the university came and met with all the female swimmers and they offered all of you counseling if you could not bring yourselves to accept Leah Thomas as a woman.
	You're the ones who have a psychological problem in that.
	Not Leah Thomas, it's you.
	It's gaslighting.
	I believe that I had a psychological problem.
	I got my own therapist and I tried to talk to a therapist about it.
	I'm not even kidding.
	You're kidding me.
	No, for a moment, I was like, maybe I'm just not being accepting.
	I did have this one moment where I was like, maybe I'm missing something here and I need help.
	Maybe.
	I did one session and I was like, no.
	I know that I'm right.
	I know that this is the truth.
	And I'm not going to let someone tell me that that's not It reminds me of that old TV show, The Munsters.
	I watched it on reruns, I'm not that old.
	But The Munsters is this family of monsters who are all scary vampires.
	And there's one beautiful blonde woman.
	And she thinks she's the ugly one.
	It makes me think of you, where you say, I don't think that men are really women, and I don't think women should be forced to compete against men.
	I guess I'm the crazy one.
	I guess I'm the hateful one, the irrational one.
	Yeah, and this therapist talked me through why people are transgender, and what transgenderism is.
	Like, why it's so important for them to be, you know, transitioning and whatever.
	And I was like, and again, like I'm a very loving and caring person and like that, like when you play on my heartstrings and like you tell me something emotional, like you do get me.
	And there is a, there's a few moments where I was like, oh wow, maybe I'm really in the wrong here.
	And then it was very brief.
	It was like 12 hours.
	And then I was like, right back to this is so unfair and this is not right.
	And we need to tell the real truth.
	I thought it was interesting.
	Everybody we talked to in the film, though, was on the other side of this.
	They all had the same exact argument.
	They said, no, this isn't really happening.
	If a biological male, trans woman, wins an event, it's kind of an anomaly.
	It just happens.
	They just happen to maybe work harder than the rest of the group.
	But really, I think Rodrigo, who's the guy from the The Transgender Center in Washington, D.C.
	said this.
	I think Marcy Bowers said it.
	They basically discounted the fact that anybody's actually affected by this.
	There aren't any real victims.
	And by doing so, they're basically denying biological reality.
	And you got to see that biological reality probably a little bit too up close than you wanted to.
	Yeah, definitely.
	And I know Selena has as well.
	Like, she was showing me some pictures in the green room of some of these athletes that she had to race against.
	And, you know, let's just say they're very obviously male.
	And the establishment that's been pushing this ideology, it's not showing any signs of holding up.
	I mean, clearly, even just from the courageous work that you are doing, there is a pushback by the people here, by women and men and all sorts of people.
	But the elites who are pushing it, they're not letting up.
	And in certain other countries, I think of America's top hat up in Canada, they've gone even further on this ideology.
	And we have our Canadian friend Jordan Peterson coming up to discuss what's going on up there.
	Thank you both.
	For coming on.
	Thank you both for fighting this fight when a lot of other cowardly people want to run away from it.
	You've done a wonderful job of that.
	If you think things are bad here in the United States, just think about the father who was up in British Columbia and was arrested for quote-unquote misgendering his daughter.
	Hey, can you hear me?
	I can hear you, yes.
	Well, hey, thanks for taking a moment to talk to us again.
	Yeah, no problem.
	So your story in What Is A Woman is one of the, I think one of the most powerful parts of the film, and it's one that I get asked about probably the most.
	People want to know where it stands right now, what's happening with your case, so I was hoping we'd just jump right into it.
	I mean, first of all, are you still banned from talking publicly about your story?
	I am, yeah.
	I'm still under my own gag orders, and then there's publication bans on top of that for everybody else.
	So, yeah, none of that has changed.
	And I know in the What is a Woman documentary, you know, I think the last thing mentioned there was I was going to court in November, and that's been delayed.
	So my court date is actually tomorrow.
	Why was it delayed?
	In this case, it was my delay to get it to tomorrow where I'm appealing the sentence.
	I was the first time offender by telling a story about my child that I thought everyone deserved to kind of know what was going on in the schools and the reality of what parents were not being told.
	And I do interviews on that and I get a six month prison sentence as a first time offense.
	And so that's why tomorrow is important is because this is the precedent that this government You know, as a child going through this decides, hey, I want to make some noise and say something, what's going on?
	But they're going to understand that, you know, they're facing a humongous penalty for saying anything in opposition to this agenda.
	My best case scenario is that I walk out of court in the next number of days, however long this takes.
	And in the panel of three B.C.
	Supreme Court judges, at least two of them agree that my two months was sufficient and that is the penalty.
	And I walk away with time served.
	A bunch riding on this.
	I mean, not just for me personally.
	I mean, obviously, for me personally, it's obvious what's riding on it over months in jail.
	But even for people in British Columbia and in Canada, there's a lot riding because that's a big deterrent to go from two months to six months.
	If you lose tomorrow, if the tyrannical side wins out, what happens to you then?
	My lawyer says 70% chance I'm going back to jail to finish out that term.
	She says she's never seen the government behave in this way.
	She's like, they have made this their top priority in this case.
	They're not letting it go.
	You're saying that's based on the political bias against you.
	The government is just determined to see this all the way through.
	That's it, yes.
	Because in any other case, common sense would almost dictate that, you know, I've been out on bail now for, it's been about two years, and my bail conditions are pretty strict, like super strict.
	And so one would think in any other case it'd be like, fine, he's already spent a couple months in jail anyways.
	Let's just let this go.
	But they won't.
	And that's exactly it.
	Like you were saying.
	And what my lawyer says, too, is that it's just so political.
	They just have to see this through.
	They've got to make this example.
	How are you?
	How are you personally feeling heading into tomorrow?
	You know, I was optimistic, but I just because I don't see anything changing politically, the climate here in British Columbia.
	And I face it as if I expect the four months.
	However, you know, if if I get good news, then obviously I'll be Thrilled.
	But I'm mentally prepared for what I think is going to happen, which is kind of the worst case scenario.
	What do you think needs to happen in Canada to start moving it in the direction of sanity and common sense?
	I have no idea.
	You know, it's because you would think we'd be there already.
	U.S.
	states seem to be heading in the direction of common sense, at least many states, watching some of the stuff going on in the states, the battles.
	But wow, I'm so impressed.
	And like I said, I know you were part of The thing in Tennessee with the signing there with the governor, and Canada is doubling down on this stuff.
	I think they see what is happening and they feel like somehow we are the safe haven for perversion.
	I'm watching this euthanasia stuff sweeping in right now, and I know we're the laughing stock of the world.
	I mean, a poll just came out that apparently Canadians are 30% in favor of euthanizing poor people.
	And I have people I know that have physical and mental handicaps and they're terrified.
	The child in high school who's 12 years old can say, you know, I just broke up with my girlfriend or I just failed the test, I'm feeling really depressed, I would like to be euthanized.
	And the parents get a call because they don't need any parental consent just like they didn't with my child when it came to the sterilization and then the and the hormones, and they'll say, yeah, your child is in a
	funeral home. I've been trying to wake people up for five years in this country, and I don't
	know, I mean, thank God people are waking up in the U.S., like, it wasn't in vain. Well, at
	least it starts, it's got to start with a voice in the wilderness, which is what you are.
	And we really appreciate your courage.
	And we're pulling for you, we're praying for you.
	And thanks again for talking to us.
	Yeah, no, thank you.
	And yeah, congratulations.
	You have one year.
	It's funny, June 1, Pride Month.
	Yeah, it's a good time.
	It's a good anniversary to have it.
	OK, thank you.
	Love it.
	All right, thank you.
	Had I not heard that interview, I would not have believed it was possible for a man to actually be sent to prison for calling his daughter she.
	Or maybe I would have joked about it or I said that happens in North Korea.
	That is happening in America's top hat.
	And we are now joined by a Canadian who knows this sort of thing firsthand, the great Dr. Jordan B. Peterson.
	Jordan, thank you for making it for this one year reunion of the movie.
	How is that real?
	Well, laws have consequences.
	You know, when this broke back in 2016, when the law making it illegal to Not use someone's pronouns, let's say, was passed.
	I was assured by the legal scholars, so to speak, some of whom were from British Columbia, that my concerns that this would ever result in, you know, genuine legal penalties, like prison, that was just scaremongering on my part.
	And I thought, well, it's a law.
	If you break the law, then you're put in court.
	And if you don't stop or Then you're going to be subject to the full penalties of the law.
	Because that's what a law is.
	And so, man, here we go.
	You know, and his case is absolutely catastrophic.
	And you might say, well, it's an isolated incident.
	First of all, an incident like this is not isolated.
	And second of all, there's all sorts of crazy things happening in Canada.
	So, you know, you walk in the direction you aim at.
	And this is where Canadians aimed.
	And I think my country, you know, for a long time you could be complacent in Canada because fundamentally the institutions were sound.
	You could essentially trust the political parties.
	You could trust the socialists to represent the working class to the degree that they did that.
	The Liberals were a centrist party.
	The Conservatives were the party of big business.
	Everyone knew that.
	People were playing basically a straight game.
	The newspapers were trustworthy.
	So were the educational institutions and the courts.
	That's all.
	Done with.
	We're done with that.
	And maybe worse in Canada than anywhere else.
	Maybe worse than New Zealand.
	Yeah, it's quite something.
	You know, there's a bit of positive...
	Emerging, I suppose.
	Pierre Polyeb, who's the leader of the Conservatives, seems to have a spine.
	Daniel Smith maintained control over Alberta and its fossil fuel resources in an election that was insanely close.
	The Socialists just about got control of the third largest oil reserves in the world.
	That was two days ago.
	Scott Moe, who runs Saskatchewan, he's got a bit of a spine and he's standing up to Trudeau.
	And so, you know, it's possible that this will be reversed, but Canadians just have their... they're completely asleep on this.
	And you did see it coming.
	It occurs to me just now.
	You first came to public... I told the Senate what was going to happen.
	You know, it's amazing because you've done so much since all this time that you kind of forget how you first came to public consciousness.
	It was over this issue.
	Absolutely.
	Wow.
	Yeah, well I knew that compelled speech was a catastrophe.
	It's like the government made a law Saying what you had to say.
	No political system derived from English common law tradition had ever done anything like that.
	In fact, the Supreme Court in the United States made that unconstitutional.
	Ruled that that was unconstitutional, I think, in 1942.
	Like, explicitly.
	And, you know, I watched that bill go through.
	I thought, what the hell is going on here?
	I really didn't care one way or another about the trans issue.
	You know, although that's become just this unbelievable, bloody, catastrophic What parody?
	It's murderous, you know?
	And, well, here we are.
	That's what happens when you let the government control your speech.
	Yeah, I think also, you know, the groundwork for this, it's before the law.
	So that's what, you know, in the United States, we look at what's happening in Canada, and we like to think that, well, it's not going to, it's inconceivable that we would throw parents in prison here for misgendering their kids.
	Yeah, they'll do it in California.
	They'll do it.
	And one of the reasons that they'll do it before the law, we just listen to the words that they're using, listen to the arguments that they're making, and the moment that they tell us that misgendering is a form of violence, and that if you're misgendering you're a terrorist and it's abusive, they're already saying all of that.
	And if that's true, like if it's true that it's violent abuse to misgender someone, then you should go to prison for it.
	But it's not true, obviously.
	So, the moment they win that argument and people accept that, then all the rest of this is just... It follows.
	It follows logically.
	Right, right.
	Well, that's the problem with things that follow logically, is they follow.
	So, yeah.
	I have to wonder, especially from your perspective as an academic and a public intellectual, I don't want to sound like an old ornery man saying things always used to be better in the past and kids these days don't know anything.
	When I look at the commencement exercises from Harvard and Yale and Princeton in the 18th century, 19th century, early 20th century, they were debating serious philosophical epistemological questions in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew.
	And today the people at the elite universities are listening to entertainers crack jokes with no point whatsoever.
	The education is just Gone, our sense of ourselves and our political order is just gone.
	Is this a crisis of the elites?
	I mean, if we don't know the answer to the question, what is a woman?
	The universities are done.
	You know, when Elon took over Twitter, He fired 80% of the people.
	I've heard through the grapevine that he probably has to fire half of the remaining 20%.
	That's apparent now.
	Yeah, right, right.
	And universities are in the same situation.
	They're not repairable.
	So what I saw happen over three decades was that the administration encroached on the faculty.
	And every time they did that, so that'd be like 3,000 times, the faculty stepped backwards.
	And I used to tell my colleagues, why are you saying yes?
	And they'd say, well, we won't get what we want if we don't agree.
	And I said, well, are you getting what you want now?
	It's like, well, no, but it'll get worse.
	It's like, have it your way.
	And so then the administration took over the university.
	And then the woke types took over the administration.
	And that happened much faster.
	But the precedent had already been established, and it was the faculty's fault.
	As far as I'm concerned, it was just constant acts of micro-cowardice.
	And so how do you repair that?
	Cornell put together, hypothetically, a panel to investigate bolstering free speech at Cornell.
	But then they stacked the panel with DEI types, of course.
	And so that's not going to work.
	It was all for show.
	Now, you know, does that mean that higher education is doomed?
	It's like, no, I don't think so.
	There's all sorts of technological workarounds and there's a huge opportunity on the educational front to get things right and in a much less expensive manner.
	But I can't see that the universities are salvageable.
	And the woke types are trying to take out the science, technology, engineering and mathematics specialties.
	And they'll do that because those people don't have a political bone in their body.
	They have no idea how to fight off the The woke types who went through the humanities and then the social scientists.
	So, I can't see that being repaired.
	The granting agencies are completely corrupt.
	In California, I think it's 75% of applicants for science, technology, engineering and mathematics entry-level positions at universities have their dossiers set aside without their research even being evaluated.
	Because their diversity, equity, and inclusivity statements are insufficient.
	And that's California.
	It had one of the greatest state education systems in the world.
	So, this is, we're done with, we're done with that.
	Do you think parents, a parent right now with an 18 or 19 year old kid or 17 year old kid, Should they dissuade their kids from going to college?
	It depends on the college, but broadly speaking, yes, especially if it's expensive.
	It's like, no, there's just... Why would you send someone to an institution that panders and propagandizes?
	And it's a weird combination of corporate-speak stupidity.
	Our students are customers, you know, they're consumers.
	It's like, no, they're not.
	They're not consumers, not in the classic sense.
	And then, well, and then kowtowing to the woke mob, you know, and letting their claims to compassion stand unchallenged, which is also quite stunning, because the real woke radicals are anything but compassionate.
	They use that 100% as camouflage.
	There, the worst of them are predatory psychopaths.
	And the research, by the way, the research on that front is indicating that with great clarity.
	Dark tetrad types.
	Machiavellian, so manipulative.
	Psychopathic, that makes them predatory parasites.
	Narcissistic, so they want unearned status, and that was the initial dark triad.
	That wasn't enough.
	The researchers had to add sadism to that in the last three years because it turns out that if you have those three personality trait clusters characterizing you, you also take undue pleasure in the suffering of others.
	And so, and psychometrically, it appears that having those personality traits is almost indistinguishable on the measurable front from being a left-wing authoritarian.
	So, and we're compassionate.
	It's like, no, I don't think so.
	I think you're a complete bloody poisonous snake.
	And you're using compassion to hide what is nothing on your part, but pure maneuvering for power.
	And that's why the left-wing radicals say, well, you know, everything's about power.
	It's like, well, that's how you think.
	What about reason?
	What about facts?
	What about logic?
	What about reality?
	You know, when you see the government putting this guy into prison for calling his daughter his daughter.
	You want to point to him and say, but no, but here's biology, and here's philosophy, and here's epistemology, and here's the Constitution.
	And then these people will look at you?
	I'll say, so what?
	We don't care.
	It's like, what's your point, buddy?
	You know, all that old stuff.
	Besides, the right response to that from the radical side is, every single word you said was nothing but a justification for your power striving.
	You and your free speech, right?
	You and your productivity, your merit.
	All that is, is your conniving to mask your power striving.
	Well, that's the basic claim.
	So, you know, and Well, the reason that holds purchase to some degree is because almost all social interactions between people at all levels are contaminated to some degree with
	Inappropriate striving for power, right?
	So you can say, well, look at the corruption.
	And you can say, well, it's all corruption.
	It's like, well, at that point, you really have to watch your claim.
	Because if that's true, then we are in a very dark place.
	And if it was true, nothing would work.
	And things do work.
	So obviously, it's not true.
	Right, right.
	We wouldn't have intelligible speech, for that matter.
	Or electricity.
	Right.
	Plumbing.
	There will be a lot more intelligible speech.
	In your interview, Matt, on Jordan's podcast, which is out now, I believe.
	He dared to put me on his YouTube channel.
	Well, R.I.P.
	Jordan, to your YouTube channel.
	Went out with a bang, though.
	It's got two and a half times the normal number of views for the time period that it's been out.
	YouTube, at the moment, has left it alone.
	I don't think it was a dare.
	There's always a risk in these situations, right?
	The risk is you do it, or you don't do it.
	Those are both risks.
	And I think it's clear, and it's been clear for me all along, the biggest risk you can possibly take is to let the cat have your tongue.
	It's like, if you can't say what you need to say, you can't think.
	And if you can't think, you will wander into a pit.
	And if you don't think there are pits and abysmal pits, you're pretty damn naive.
	So, you know, people have said to me, you're so courageous, I think.
	No, no, no, you don't understand.
	I'm just afraid of the right thing.
	I'm just seeing ahead what happens if I make the other choice.
	And you've seen that for years, and you can go listen to that conversation right now on Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's YouTube channel.
	I want to thank all of you for coming out and making the time, for all of your work in the film, outside of the film, even you Matt, I want to thank you.
	You're welcome.
	One year of this movie, and I want to thank all of you, the viewers, and especially the Daily Wire Plus members who made this movie possible, who funded this movie, and all of the other content that we have.

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