Matt Walsh sits down with Paula Scanlan, the former teammate of Lia Thomas, who was featured in the hit documentary What is a Woman? Paula’s identity remained hidden in the documentary, but this time she is speaking out about the apprehension that she and her teammates felt around Lia, and sharing the details surrounding the UPenn athletic department’s plot to keep everyone silent on the topic of a biological male competing in women’s collegiate swimming.
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Actually, one of the girls, you know, was very upset.
She went crying to the athletic department, and I don't know what they said to her, but she then was completely on board and thought Leo Swimming was, like, this magical, beautiful thing.
Like, is there something wrong with me for thinking that this is wrong?
Whatever, like, it worked.
The university wanted us to be quiet, and they did it in a very effective way.
Like, there was something going on in that athletic department that wanted to keep us quiet.
And I was like, this is getting scary.
So, Paula, last time I spoke to you, we were making What Is A Woman.
You looked a little different on camera.
Anyway, very shadowy and dark.
And now we can see who you are.
So, what made you decide to speak out publicly?
So the biggest thing for me is it's been, I thought maybe if I waited a year or however much time that these feelings I felt, unfairness, the this is not the truth, this is not just, would go away.
And they never really did.
And I just spent this last year just kind of living vicariously through, oh, Riley's going and doing these great things.
She's going to accomplish all these things we need to have done.
And she's made great strides, but I am Still feeling so passionately about this that I want to join her.
And I know that the more voices we have, and I'm hoping even more people will speak out, the more voices we have, the more powerful this will be.
So that's really where I am.
I'm ready now.
I think, you know, this is a really big cause and one of the biggest things I can be a part of.
And it's not just about me.
It's not just about Riley.
It's about fighting for women and girls across the country.
And I think that's who I'm here for.
So that's kind of the end.
We started at the end.
We'll get back to that, but let's go all the way back to the beginning.
I'm curious, when did you first find out about just the issue that males might compete against you as a female athlete?
Do you remember when you first found out about that?
It was the fall of 2019, at the very beginning of my sophomore year of college.
We had a team meeting.
Actually, the meeting was led by a member of the men's team at the time, Will Thomas, who informed the women's team that Will Thomas, they would be transitioning to the women's team.
This will not be happening this year, because NCAA rules say I have to take HRT for a year.
I didn't know what any of that was or what any of that meant, but we were told the next season that Will Thomas would be joining the women's team.
And again, at this time, still Will Thomas, so Leah was not to be born yet at this point.
So we were first announced that, and I kind of felt shocked.
I felt a little uncomfortable, but everyone around me looked really happy and excited for this member of the men's team to be living their true self.
Were those looks genuine, or were people— did they feel like they had to pretend that they were excited?
Honestly, I can't speak for everyone, but in my own experience, I think it was definitely just a lot of shock.
I think that was the biggest thing, is, you know, you kind of, like, smile when you're uncomfortable.
That's how I would have read it, but again, I can't speak for every single person on my team, but that's how I interpreted it, and it was just a situation where we're like, okay, well, we're going to have to navigate this for the next year.
At least we have a year to think about it.
And you said that Will Thomas, soon to be Leah Thomas, led this meeting where this was all explained to you?
It was interesting because, actually, the women and the men's team at Penn is a combined program, so most things we do is with the men's team.
The women were called into the team room, and we had the meeting that I sat in on, where our coach said, OK, everyone sit down.
OK, I'm going to pass this over to Will.
This is Will's meeting.
So this is when you were first told About this male who's going to be competing against you by the male himself.
So there wasn't a meeting before this where you guys had a chance to ask questions without having the guy himself right there?
You didn't have that opportunity?
No.
This was just, it happened, like, it was September of 2019.
It was the beginning of the season.
Like, we were still in preseason, actually.
I don't think the official season had even started yet.
And it just announced to us, just, and then it was really quick.
It was less than 10 minutes.
And then our coach said, okay, everybody get in the pool.
Practice is starting now.
Was this the first time you were introduced to the concept of males competing against females in women's sports, or were you aware of it as sort of an issue?
I had only heard of cases of—there was a famous case in the swimming world of that swimmer at Harvard who transitioned from the women's to the men's team.
So I'd only heard of it that way.
Honestly, I never even really—I knew, I guess, it would have been a possibility if women were going to be transitioning into men and competing with men.
That, of course, the other way would have been a possibility, like, in the back of my mind, but I never thought that that would be my reality.
I just didn't think it was an issue.
Did you know Will Thomas before this announcement?
Yeah, I mean, not well, not very well, but acquaintance with, for sure.
During that period, how would you describe him?
I thought Will was very quiet, didn't really speak much to people that weren't close friends.
We didn't really interact very much.
Definitely not someone I would expect to be part of such a public scandal, if that's the best way to put it.
Just, I've always thought of someone who was very, like, keep to themselves.
Was it the same way when he came over to the women's?
No.
I think, I'm not sure how much of it was just, you know, change of personality or whatever happened, or how much of it was because there was so much media attention and you kind of have to start, like, acting that way and just more talkative, more vocal.
Walk me through, in the early weeks and months, actually competing against or having a male on your team.
What was that like?
First, we were kind of told that maybe prior to this happening, again when this was first announced, we were told maybe Leah might be Might be changing in a different locker room or might continue to stay in the men's locker room.
It was all kind of up in the air.
And then I saw the locker room chart and saw that Leah definitely had a locker in the women's room.
So that was confirmed that that was definitely going to be happening and there was never really a further discussion about that.
So I said, oh, okay, I guess this is the reality.
To actually have a male in the women's locker room, how did you feel about that?
How did the other teammates feel about it?
It was definitely uncomfortable.
I did notice a few girls going, there's a few bathroom stalls in the bathroom and I did notice some girls changing the bathroom stalls for practice, which is never really, I've never really seen that before.
For me personally, the biggest thing was just when you're changing and there's all these people talking in the background, you hear all these women's voices and then all of a sudden you hear a man's voice, I'd always kind of jump a little bit thinking, oh, maybe a, you know, a work, an employee of the building got into the
locker room or was, you know, taking out the trash or whatever it might be. And then I
would jump and realize, oh, actually that's a person on my team speaking. It's actually
just someone who sounds very masculine.
Did he seem to be aware that it might make people uncomfortable that he's in there?
No, I wouldn't say so.
It was never really a conversation.
I will say that I personally just tried to avoid Leah changing.
Like, tried to avoid it.
I tried to change as fast as possible just to deal with it the least amount that I could.
And then when it came to the actual swimming part of it?
Yeah, so Leah actually doesn't swim the same events as me, so I never had to directly compete against Leah, which, again, that's where Riley is more adequate to speak on this, because she actually lost out on, you know, her places, that trophy, all that.
For me, it was more watching my teammates who did swim those events, and what it was like for them to lose out on the spot, on the realize, to lose out on being chosen to be taken as meets, right?
Like, swimming is one of those sports where it's roster limited, and I don't think most sports are that way, where not everyone can go to every meet.
So there were girls that were left off the bus that would have been there if Leah hadn't been on the team.
What did those girls, did they say anything?
Did they register any kind of protest against that?
Yeah, actually one of the girls, you know, was very upset.
She went crying to the athletic department and something in that conversation, I don't know what they said to her, but she then was completely on board and thought Leah swimming was like this magical, beautiful thing.
Really?
Yeah.
It was anyone— She was crying.
She was crying about it.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, rightly so.
Yes.
She talks to, you said, the athletic department.
She made a meeting, she was like, I'm going to speak to the athletic department about this.
And I said, go you.
And she came back from the meeting, and suddenly it was the most magical, beautiful thing that this was like, we're part of this groundbreaking team.
There was something going on in that athletic department that wanted to keep us quiet.
And I was like, this is getting scary.
Did you ever find out what was said to this?
Not directly, but it was two days later that they had that formal meeting with us.
And notably, Leah was excluded from this meeting.
They said, don't talk to the media, you will regret it.
Is that a direct quote?
You will regret it?
Yep.
Another thing they said is, Leah's Swimming is a non-negotiable.
And then they provided us with counseling services to help us be okay with Leah's Swimming.
This is pretty, you know, it's pretty startling actually.
Oh, it's incredibly startling.
Being on a team, you want to be supportive, right?
Your job as a teammate is to support your teammates, and that's kind of the biggest thing people had issues with saying is, you know, even if you don't agree with Leah Swimming or on the women's team or whatever, you have to be supportive, and that's what teammates do.
But I think back about, you know, all those scandals.
Like, what about Lance Armstrong and the cycling teams, right?
Do you think Lance Armstrong's teammates were supposed to be supportive of doping?
Right?
So there comes a fine line.
Yes, you support your teammates, but if you see something unjust and something wrong, you can't be quiet about it.
And I think that's what was missing.
Of course I support my teammates.
I support them in all things.
But if I see something unjust, I need to speak about it.
What, if anything, were you guys saying to each other about all this?
Were you commiserating about how outrageous and unfair it is?
Or was it a feeling that you can't even talk about it to each other for fear of punishment?
So prior to that meeting, I would have one-on-one conversations with pretty much everyone on the team.
Say, hey, like, you know, I don't think this is right.
Yeah, I don't think it's right either.
Another teammate actually said to me, I think Leah's record should have an asterisk.
Or someone said, I think Leah should compete Exhibition.
Or, you know, I don't think this is going to go on for much longer.
Like, someone's going to step in and end this.
And I had these conversations with so many of my teammates.
I would say most people on the team had this opinion.
And then after that meeting, they really scared us.
It was scary and I was petrified.
I went home that night and I called my brother on the phone and I said, can I even talk about this with you?
Is there something wrong with me for thinking that this is wrong?
It worked.
The university wanted us to be quiet, and they did it in a very effective way.
Like, they continued to just tell us that our opinions were wrong, and that if we had an issue with it, we were the problem.
And it's frightening, and your future job is on the line, and everything else you want to accomplish.
So, of course it worked, and then after that point, no one would talk about it anymore.
Like, they effectively, you know, silenced us even within talking to each other.
You began to doubt your own instincts about whether or not this is wrong.
Yeah, I did, actually.
I'm pretty religious, actually.
I'm Catholic, and I actually went to my Catholic leader, and I was, you know, am I wrong on this?
And at the time, it was really hard for people who were involved in the Catholic community.
We want to love, and we want to be there, and I want to understand that, you know, Someone is in pain, right?
Like, Leah Thomas is in pain.
Clearly, if this has happened, there's pain behind that.
And as a Catholic, you really want to support that, and you want to empathize with that experience.
But also, how can you support something that's so unjust?
And so I really struggled with that, and it was actually very hard for me in my religion too, where I was feeling like I can't feel hate, and I don't feel hate towards Leah, I want to make that very clear.
It was really hard to manage that and to feel the way that I felt.
And it was, you know, even the Catholic leaders weren't really equipped to even entertain these conversations, because they had never really seen anything like it either.
What did they say to you, the church leaders?
Well, they just had said, like, you know, it's obviously unjust and just to continue with prayer and just, you know, trust that God will guide in the right way.
I mean, again, nothing super intense.
And I think as time grew on and the injustice continued, I think the churches At least the local church at campus.
Campus's stance did grow a little stronger that this is unjust and we do need to speak about it.
But at the very beginning it was, oh, I don't know if we should take a public stance on this or I don't know if you should speak about this publicly.
I think you should just work with God directly and not speak out.
I actually did have hope through the entire season that maybe somebody would step in and not allow this to happen.
Like at each stage of each big meet, like before Ivy's happened, I said maybe the Ivy League will step in, and they didn't.
Maybe the NCAA will step in before the NCAA Championship, and they didn't.
And part of it was I constantly kept waiting for these institutions to do the right thing.
Honestly, looking back, I don't know why I ever even trusted that they might.
But I did have hope, and that's kind of what kept me through.
I was hoping that somebody would see what was correct, but it just never happened.
And that's part of the reason why I'm here speaking out, is that, you know, these institutions failed us, and I think somebody needs to do something about it.
What was the environment on the campus, even outside of the team?
Because Leah Thomas, at this point, had become a well-known figure and controversial, to say the least.
It was definitely a conversation on campus.
I think most people on campus that found out I was on the swim team would want to talk to me about it.
I would say most people on campus probably agreed that it was wrong, but again, voicing that is scary, especially in, you know, universities are very woke, for lack of a better word, and they want to push this liberal agenda, and they want to push, you know, all of those types of ideals on us, so that was definitely It's really hard to even, like, find people to have conversations with, but I would let them come to me.
Like, if people came to me, I would openly discuss.
What do you say to, as I'm sure you've heard many times, the people on the other side of this issue who would say that we have to let people compete against whatever group they identify with, and if we don't, it's going to make them feel excluded, or what have you?
Yeah, I understand that.
And actually, I have a really easy solution that would work great if everyone could implement it.
I think there should be women's sports, meaning people who are born female.
And there should be another category, formerly known as the men's team, called Open.
Why don't we let everyone compete with the men?
And I think, I'm sure maybe some men would be unhappy with that, but the thing is, is people have been talking about making this new, like, non-binary or trans category, and that is just another group where men are gonna always win.
For example, if you look at qualifications for the Boston Marathon, which is, like, the greatest marathon.
Everyone wants to qualify for that.
They're now, like, a non-binary standard, which, guess what, is the same time standards as the women.
So you're giving men another category to then win.
And let's just say that there's prize money associated with these three categories.
Men are always going to win that middle category, too.
So I don't think that that necessarily is a correct solution.
And again, I could be wrong.
That's just my personal opinion.
I'm sure there's much more qualified people to make this decision than myself.
But I think that that would work in the sense that if they're saying that they can't compete in a category that aligns with their identity or whatever that means, that would work.
Those that want to open up women's sports are not accepting of any kind of compromise.
No, they're not.
And that's what's so scary to me about this whole thing, and there's no discussion here.
And I think the thing that was most important to me is I think going into college, I was always under the belief that colleges were a place of free speech.
Right, Candace actually spoke, Candace Owens actually spoke at the University of Pennsylvania my freshman year, and I said, great, this is what this is about.
We can have conservative voices on campus.
We can have liberal voices on campus.
And I was so excited to have all these opportunities to listen to opinions from both sides.
Like, that is what I went to college for, and that's what I thought college education was.
And then, as these things started going on, I realized that they don't have that.
Their agenda is to have everyone believe what they want them to believe.
And, you know, it really became so clear to me my senior year, when all this started happening, that that is actually the case, that universities want their agenda pushed into everyone's mind, and they don't care if you have a different opinion, because they don't want you to have that.
Tell me about this.
You wrote an editorial for the student newspaper, right?
Yeah, so I was actually approached by a friend I knew who worked on the Daily Pennsylvanian, which is our school-run newspaper.
And she said, we're publishing a bunch of articles that are pro-LEA.
We want one person to have a dissenting viewpoint.
And I was like, oh, awesome, right?
This is exactly what I want.
Again, I have no issue with these people who say trans women are women or whatever, right?
That's their opinion.
I can agree or disagree with that, but that's their own opinion.
And so I said, okay, that's great.
Then they kind of said I could do it anonymously, which I was like, okay, awesome.
So we did that, and then they kind of gave me a list of rules.
They said, okay, here are the following rules you have to follow.
So I write this article, and I try to be as respectful as possible, and I keep going through all these edits and edits, and they're like deleting— What were the rules?
The rule said I couldn't refer to transgenderism as a choice.
I said, okay.
I mean, I wasn't really going to touch on that.
I have to refer to everyone with their preferred pronouns.
So how can you possibly—your whole argument is that someone like Leo Thomas is a man and should be competing against women.
And they're telling you that in order to even have the conversation, you have to agree with them to begin with.
I honestly ignored the whole thing and just talked about biology.
It really was more—I barely even really touched on Leah in the article, to be honest, and I think you guys have a copy.
We can go over it at some point.
But, you know, it was really more about the biology and the statistics of how the NCAA came up with their policy for transgender athletes and how it was deeply flawed.
I mean, I studied engineering, so I understand, you know.
Doing studies and having hypotheses and scientific aspects.
And I think a lot of that is missing.
And one of the things I noticed is that testosterone is the only thing mentioned.
There are so many other hormones in the human body.
Why would one singular hormone level be the determination for someone to compete on one side or the other?
Like, what?
And I was like, does anyone, even part of this, even have a scientific background?
Did any of you guys even take a biology class?
I learned that in my freshman year of high school in a biology class, and I think most of the people in America probably had to take bio their freshman year of high school, too.
So, it was, it was, that was just, and it was crazy, and I would write these lines, and they would just cut them out, because they'd say, oh, this line is, like I said, at the very end, I said, like, if we continue to let this happen, we're going to discourage female athletes from competing permanently, and they said, that's too harsh.
But then eventually it was published in some form.
Yeah, and they retracted it 45 minutes later.
But luckily, I did actually get a saved copy of it published.
Did they ever follow up with you about what happened?
Nope.
I went out of my way to get in contact with the guy, the editor I was working with on the school newspaper, to ask him what happened.
And he dodged my calls for about a week.
And finally, I got a hold of him, and he just said, sorry, I think half the staff was threatening to quit over this being up.
We don't withhold transphobic beliefs in the Daily Pennsylvania and some blah, blah, blah.
I was kind of angry.
I was like an angry phone call.
I was like screaming at this guy on the phone.
Like, I mean, because I did work hard on it, and it is—I'm not like a natural-born writer.
Like, writing a piece, I'm sure you've written a lot.
I'm sure you know.
And they asked me to do it.
Someone on the staff wanted a dissenting viewpoint.
And then it was just like, oh, goodbye.
And I was like, well, are we going to make more edits so we can make it acceptable?
Again, at this point, so many edits had been made, it was barely even my piece anymore.
But I was still hopeful, oh, maybe we can have something out there that's saying maybe this isn't fair.
And they were like, no, we're done.
And I never really talked to any of them ever again.
I mean, I've been, as you know, talking about this issue for a long time, but I still, when I hear stories like this, it still is somewhat, somehow I find myself being surprised by how crazy it is.
I'm surprised every day.
I think my biggest thing is I'm a really strong believer in free speech.
My personal history is like, I'm half Tony's, and my grandfather was actually the person who fought for free speech in Taiwan.
He worked with people on both sides, both parties.
And he was the biggest believer in free speech.
He had friends that he would argue with until they were red in the face because they disagreed so much, but they were there to have that discussion.
And this entire country, and many other countries, have been built on having discussions where people disagree, right?
The Constitution was written over discussions and compromises, and everything this country is built off of is arguments and discussions and free speech.
And I feel like we don't have that anymore, and that's what's so scary to me about this.
And obviously it's unfair for men to compete as women, but it's also even scarier that we can't even have a discussion about it.
It seems increasingly over the last year, you mentioned Riley Gaines and others have come out, speaking out against this.
Now you're coming out.
What do you make of the, what seems to be the momentum gathering behind the pushback against all this?
What do you make of that?
I think it's definitely a positive sign, right?
Obviously, the second Riley started speaking out about it, I immediately got in touch with her and she became a friend of mine.
I think there are people that are willing to speak about it.
I don't think there's enough.
I still think that there's people who are never going to change their mind about it, which is always going to be the case, which I personally find unfortunate.
But, you know, we can only convince who we can convince.
I do think there's hope.
I really do.
I mean, maybe I'm a hopeful person.
I've kind of touched on every single aspect of this journey.
I've had hope.
But I do see turning points.
I see certain states.
Writing into law, fairness, acts, and I also, swimming, FINA, the governing body of swimming, has put into law that you have to transition before the age of 12, which no one should be allowed to do, in my opinion, to compete at the Olympic level.
So, obviously, there are governing bodies that are taking this seriously, but I don't think we're done, and I'm here to fight until we have every single state in the United States and every country in the world that also believes this.
What do you think needs to be done?
What does fighting back mean?
I think we need to pass laws.
I think that's the only way when in courts, in the court cases, I know there's some notable ones.
The track case in Connecticut, I know that they have a hearing coming up for that.
And I think we need to just keep telling our stories, and I need to, you know, encourage other people to also speak their own, right?
There's so many instances of this happening that we might not even know about, right?
So many different states, there's so many different sports leagues.
And just encouraging the people who are going through this to use their voice and to voice what they know is right.
Why is it important for women in particular to speak out about methods?
I think the biggest thing on this is obviously men having a voice in this is helpful, right?
Because, you know, you're part of society.
But I think if women can't speak out about this themselves, then what's the point of fighting?
And that's kind of part of the reason why I'm personally speaking out, is I've noticed that most of the people speaking out about this are in the older generations.
And that's why I think it's so important for people like me and Riley to be talking about this, because if we are the young people that are going through this ourselves and we can't even speak out about it, Then what's the point, right?
If we can't speak out and we can't tell our truth, then why is anyone else fighting for us?
We have to want it ourselves for other people to fight for us.
And so I think the same goes for women.
Women have to fight for this themselves because it's our spaces.
It's our sports.
And I think that's really powerful when the women come together and do it.
And obviously, men should also speak about it.
I don't disagree with that.
But it's really, we need to band together and we need to speak for what's right.
What is your message to any women out there that may be in the spot that you were a couple years ago, and this is happening in their sports leagues, or their bathrooms, their spaces are being invaded.
They're not okay with it, but they're afraid, they're nervous.
What's your message to them?
I mean, yeah, I'm still really nervous.
I mean, it never really goes away, but I think the biggest thing is you need to think about this is so much more than yourself, right?
I'm not swimming anymore.
I'm not dealing with that anymore.
I don't really have any women's faces currently that are being invaded, but I think the biggest thing is to just Fight for those people who don't have a voice, right?
Those younger girls, the girls that are age 12 to 14 that are starting out on these sports teams, they don't know how to speak for themselves.
They don't know what's right and what's wrong.
But you have to speak out and have the message be told to them that this is wrong.
And they're not going to have as powerful of a voice because they're not older and they don't have a platform because they're, you know, young girls.
But that's who we need to speak out for.
So I think you need to think about speaking out for everyone who doesn't have a voice.
What do you think happens to women's sports in the next 10 years if this trend is not reversed?
I just don't think that they'll be real anymore.
I think there'll be women, biological women, or, you know, females on these teams, but there won't be as many of them, and a lot of them on the way up there will quit.
It's discouraging.
Nobody wants to be a part of something that, you know, you know you're going to lose.
Nobody wants to be a part of something that's unfair.
It's discouraging, and there's already been instances of professionals who have quit their sports over this.
So I think, again, I don't know what that looks like exactly, but I just don't think they'll be truly women's sports.
And then we'll have to say, oh, let's make a women's team like they did, you know, 40 plus years ago.
And we'll be right back to where they were in the 70s.
Are you worried about...
Personal reprisals or what's going to happen?
What kind of response you're going to get after going out speaking publicly like this?
Yeah, I'm definitely really worried.
I think, obviously, I know what I face, Stephen, speaking anonymously with people knowing my opinion.
But I think it's so much more than this.
And for me personally, I've come to the point where if you can't respect my opinion and my freedom of speech and my wanting to tell the truth, then I don't need to worry about your opinion of mine because you can't respect Respect what I believe.
So I think that's my feeling towards that.
And obviously, it is scary.
And I'm sure, you know, others are still afraid.
But unfortunately, this is so much bigger than just my own personal feelings.
