Jared Yates Sexton and Nick Hauselman discuss disgraced general Mike Flynn's affirmative response to a question regarding why we can't have a Myanmar-style military coup in the United States. Journalist Justin Glawe (http://twitter.com/justinglawe), who was at the Q Anon convention where Mike Flynn was speaking, joins the show to add more context and discuss how widespread this movement is. Jared then sits down with Marc-André Argentino (http://twitter.com/_MAArgentino), one of the foremost researchers of Q-Anon and online conspiracy theorism, to talk about how very real the Q Anon threat is, as its spread to our leaders and poses a serious threat.
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I want to know why what happened in Minamar can't happen here.
No reason.
I mean, it should happen here.
No reason.
That's right.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the McCraig Podcast.
I'm Jerry D. at Sexton here with Nick Halseman.
You know, sometimes we get on here and it's like a good time.
We can talk about the absurdity of things and lace it through.
Today's not gonna be one of those days.
This is unfortunately a serious and disturbing podcast we have to talk about today.
We are recording this on Memorial Day on Monday, the day after Lieutenant General Mike Flynn went in front of the For God and Country Patriot Roundup, which what a name.
by the way.
What a way to spend your money and time.
Went up in front of it and was asked why America can't have a military coup like Myanmar.
And he said, we absolutely can and we should, which in my book, I don't know about you, Nick, that's sedition.
We are going to be talking about that, going through the specifics, going deeper in the story than other people are.
In order to help with that, we're going to have journalist Justin Glauwe come on.
Glauwe was one of the people who was at the event, heard some really disturbing shit at this, also got video of Flynn probably committing sedition.
And we're also going to have Marc-Andre Argentino on to talk about QAnon and the growing move within that conspiracy theory realm in the far right, their desire to carry out a coup.
Nick, I don't know, man.
I don't know man.
Oh, we talk about the mask slipping off.
We talk about them not even hiding it anymore.
I don't know, man.
I'm just I'm so frustrated.
Well, I do have to call timeout for a second, because if you were following Popat, who is on Twitter and is a lawyer, he does make the case and insists that, you know, Flynn in his First Amendment right is allowed to say that.
Cool.
Versus sedition, you know.
Now, there are things you're supposedly not allowed to say, like, you know, you're wishing ill on certain higher-ups in the government, right?
That's supposed to be like, oh, be careful if anybody hears you say that, you can get really in trouble.
I don't see why those two things are that different, but you're supposed to be allowed to say that kind of stuff in an open, free society, whatever.
So just throwing it out there.
And by the way, happy Memorial Day and thank you for everybody who has served in our military and sacrificed that way.
And carried out a coup on behalf of the military.
The irony is thick, I suppose, right?
Listen, you know, this is one of those things.
Yeah, you probably should be allowed to say something along those lines, unless you're a lieutenant general.
That might be a problem.
But we also have to talk about the fact that this is This is not just some isolated incident.
By the way, it's not just a Lieutenant General.
It's the former National Security Advisor to a President of the United States of America and a guy who is so deep in the QAnon conspiratorial realm and has been playing footsie with this stuff, has been profiting off of this stuff, spread a digital oath to QAnon in order to fight I mean, has been at the forefront of all of this madness.
And we keep telling people it's getting worse.
It's progressing.
It's becoming more and more anti-democratic and more and more dangerous.
And this, this is yet another instance.
We're not even four months removed from an attempted coup.
at the Capitol of the United States of America.
And now we're talking about the possibility of some sort of a widespread larger insurrection that we need to talk about what that would look like, what that means, what we're even dealing with here.
But it is another escalation among so many other escalations that we're trying to warn people about.
For sure.
I mean, all these things are connected.
So what's got will happen in Texas yesterday, which is actually kind of in some weird way exciting.
It kind of reminded me of Animal House when they walk out of there.
Isn't this an indictment of our rights in general, Greg?
Whatever.
When they walk out of that hearing, the Democrats in Texas also walked out and somehow by there's no quorum in the legislature in Texas.
So they can't pass these ridiculous laws that will suppress voters for now.
And I wonder if they were, you know, humming My Country, Tis of Thee as they left because it was one of those moments.
But like, it does feel very tenuous at best when, you know, you can simply delay some of these things that are all related in terms of what QAnon is saying and what they want to do to this government and to our country.
So like, basically, yes, get Trump reinstalled as more than half of the Republican Party believes that he is the true president today.
Yeah, and that's the thing about it.
It's like we're talking about a group of people and we've been dedicating a lot of time to this.
The Republican Party is historically unpopular.
What is it?
How many elections now have they not?
They've won the presidency twice.
Yeah, twice-ish.
And they've lost the popular vote every time but once over a large span of time now.
The writing is on the wall that electoral politics in the United States of America is shifting away from the Republican Party and with it the domination of white supremacy and an aristocratic class.
As that's happening, as we've been covering, they are rejecting more and more the idea of democracy.
They're shutting it down.
What are they supposed to do, Jared?
They're going to lose.
They change tactics or march their tent or realize why they're so despised.
And so we're seeing not just – we're seeing disenfranchisement.
We're seeing like weird, bizarre attack legislation that's making it to where like protesters can be either run over by cars or not given loans or basically have their entire lives ruined if they have the wrong ideology.
Then we're seeing on top of that out in Arizona, they're trying to spread this contagion of questioning elections, which every day that goes on, I don't know how you feel about it.
I feel worse and worse about the Arizona situation because it's a blueprint.
It's a blueprint for how these other states, I mean, we're seeing in these states they're trying to push the ability to overturn elections much, much easier with no burden of doubt whatsoever.
Meanwhile, what's happening on the other side of this?
It's, it's pinching it in from different sides, right?
We have like them in state legislatures and governors pushing this shit.
And then over here, we've got people like Flynn.
people at this forgotten country, Patriot roundup rodeo bonanza, whatever in the fuck they're calling this thing, hanging out in Dallas, Texas, where I mean, you know, everybody goes apparently to try and overthrow the government. - Uh-oh. - Oh no. - And they're coming down there and they are pushing for not just extra legal measures, but revolutionary measures, because they've given up on the democratic process.
They do not think that they can win there anymore.
So they have decided to go ahead and plunge us into a crisis.
I mean that there's no other way to put this and people want to live in denial of it.
They want to pretend that's not what's happening.
That is what is happening right now.
Well, it's kind of like, it's almost like a weird joke, like the Red Dawn fever dream here where they are standing up for something righteous and holy that's part of our country.
We would probably used to joke about these things like, you know, fire the president and whatever you would say, these weird outlandish things that were, you know, didn't really, weren't democratic and that kind of thing.
But it was always like, that was never serious.
And I think that what we're seeing here is that there is enough people out there that, again, that are predetermined to believe these things, not predetermined, predisposed to believe these things based on a lot of their backgrounds.
And that these leaders that we have, you know, again, I say this all the time.
I think at this point, they definitely understand the power they have and the influence they have.
They're not just saying it because it sounds good in like some sort of polling.
I think that they do know the ramifications here, which are, you know, could very well be some sort of violence in the name of an uprising, which we already saw.
Now, we never really discussed why they're resisting the January 6th Commission.
I don't know.
I mean, maybe we have, but I feel like we haven't really dove into like what the Republican leadership's motivation truly is for denying this kind of commission, but it has to be related to the fact that they would be forced to acknowledge that they encourage this and that they understand that they encouraged it.
Yeah, and they're trying to have it both ways at this point.
And, you know, I pay a lot of attention on how the rhetoric is used and what it's doing and how it sort of interacts and escalates.
One thing that I've begun to notice about the January 6th conversation and discussion Is they've started to say that it didn't happen, right?
That it was leftist in disguise who were doing this, right?
It was a false flag operation.
But then at the same time, they're trying to push the idea that they were totally legitimate in trying to overthrow the government, or that the people who did it are being mistreated.
I mean, it literally, and this is the thing, and I was screaming about this all weekend.
Everyone is chasing the rhetoric of the Republican Party and the right.
And they're like, oh, that doesn't make sense.
Isn't that crazy that they said that?
That's not what's happening.
They don't actually believe this shit.
It's just they throw a bunch of stuff out at once.
The incoherence is part of it, right?
They're not trying to form a coherent narrative.
They're not trying to present a coherent view of the world.
What they're doing is they're trying out a bunch of tactics, a bunch of explanatory tactics, a bunch of disinformation tactics, and they're allowing anti-democratic fervor to grow behind them and gain momentum.
I was listening to, I would highly recommend there was an episode of QAnon Anonymous.
Yeah.
And they were covering that there was this Faith and QAnon rally in Arizona just very recently.
And you're hearing the same stuff that we've been talking about, which is this stuff has crossed the firewall at this point.
They're in there talking about visions from God.
They're in there talking about revelations from God, about the need to overthrow things, about, you know, that there's like a quote-unquote cabal that is trying to poison everybody.
And meanwhile, in cult news, what are they telling people?
Reject your churches who aren't preaching this stuff.
Reject your family who doesn't believe you.
Come join us.
We're gonna make this happen.
We might have to end up taking up arms We might have to take action ourselves.
This message is very clear Which is the message be prepared for violence be okay with violence and that's the direction we're going on All right I have to take a quick detour on this one because I know it's not our third or a Friday weekender But let's just talk about this for a second I had once written a screenplay about one of the Messiah comes and nobody believes him and
And it was a little bit far whatever farcical is not the word but like they had this thing called like the kind of the faithometer and it measured the faith that people had in the like in God basically in the world any one time.
And I still want this to exist in real life now because I want to know just how many people are in this movement at this moment.
Because we talk about like, you know, the Republican Party, half of them, more than half of them believe that Trump is president.
But like, how many people are the Republican Party?
And the reason why I want to know is to know just how big of a threat this is.
Is this just, you know, a few million people who are crazies, who are, you know, never going to really have enough sway to like, you know, change the view of the country?
Or is this, you know, 20 million that has grown from 10 million in like six months, you know what I mean?
I need to know the trajectory and I'm hoping that maybe when we do our interview in a little bit, we'll find out more like how many people were at this rally and, you know, and that will give us a sense of like what size this movement is.
Well, and here's part of the problem is the true answer is it doesn't matter because you have to have When it comes to situations like this, and America is very large.
America is very, very large.
And so in order for, and let's just, we got a couple of minutes before we're talking to this guy, let's go ahead and talk about what this actually is, right?
Like when Flynn says a military coup, we're not talking about every service member suddenly being like, yes, this is my moment.
I have to accept this.
That's not what we're dealing with.
The danger in America, particularly where we are and where we've been, it's mercenaries.
I don't know, have taken care of the forever wars, or maybe they're run by siblings of former secretaries of education, you know?
We're talking about Erik Prince's, we're talking about private intelligence.
And on top of that, we both know this, military and law enforcement are full of white supremacists, Right?
Who go in there, they learn their tactics, and they operate within there.
We're also talking, again, about white extremists and white terrorists who are at the margins.
Those people coming together to form some sort of force, right?
Like what we saw on January 6th.
There were people there who were trained operators, there were QAnon people, there were MAGA people.
They all operated whatever.
If you can figure out a configuration of them to pull off something very large and very Frightening I guess is what we would say a military coup is what we would say or a cultural revolution or whatever We want to call it the real question at that point is It isn't necessarily how many true believers there are.
The question is, do you have enough true believers to carry it out?
And do you have enough people who would be okay with it?
And enough people who you could oppress into going along with it?
And it would not be a clean thing.
Like, it would not be like a one-day situation.
Like, this country would devolve into chaos and bloodshed, don't get me wrong.
But That does not mean that that isn't a possibility, if that makes sense.
We have to understand that there is a possibility for these types of things to occur.
You know, on Twitter, there's a guy, a writer, journalist, S.V.
Date, I believe his name is, D-A-T-E, Date, who says that 9-11, or that the January 6th insurrection was worse than 9-11 in terms of the effect on our democracy.
And everyone kind of wanted to take him to task.
But I think I understand the point he's trying to make.
And that is that, you know, 9-11, for how horrible it was, didn't attack our democracy from the inside like January 6th did.
And so in some respects, and if it did spurn a lot of what we're talking about now, and that's a movement that's growing because it's going to encourage that now.
Remember, I think we said this before, the first coup never works, right?
It always takes a few of them before they can finally make it work.
And if we start to go down that road, and we have more January 6, because the people were encouraged and outraged by the treatment of the people who stormed the Capitol, That is what I think what you're saying as well.
That's where we're really going to be in a lot of problems because yes, that could devolve into complete chaos.
And those are the moments that I think ultimately are recruiting.
You know, we saw 9-11 be a big recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.
January 6 could very well be the same kind of recruiting tool for, you know, these white supremacist seditionists.
Yeah, and if you think about it, like if we're going to put together a historiography, basically 9-11, of course, created this major uproar within the country, this fervent nationalism and need to strike back.
Right.
And, you know, it actually wasn't even about a Democratic problem.
What we actually saw is that members of both sides of the aisle, for the most part, joined in together and said, yes, we have to do this.
Right.
It was and we're kind of We're kind of living in the hangover of that.
We have a lot of people, you know, we've talked to past guests about this, that the forever wars ended up metastasizing into a poisonous fascistic nationalism.
And it's kind of what we see post-Crusades.
And I'm putting quotes around that for people who can't see me.
You know, we are living in the after effects of that.
And now we've arrived at this point where you have a group that has been in power for almost the entirety of the United States of America.
Suddenly, the writing is on the wall that they're not going to be in power any longer, or they're going to see their power diminish and their influence diminish.
When those people start to lose power, they get incredibly dangerous.
And that's what we've seen here.
This radicalization is The the the anger and desperation of white supremacy to try and hold on to power.
And as a result, we are going to see more of this.
And I hate to say that.
I hate to be as you know, like straight about that.
But If we don't do something, if we don't take action, if we don't recognize the real problem here, and you know as well as I do, our media doesn't want to talk about any of this shit.
Right.
At all.
They have no desire to talk about that because everything's fine, everything's good, pretend like this has never ever happened.
And if we don't deal with it, it's almost inevitable that this is going to get much, much worse.
And the big difference between 9-11 and now is that, you know, the government galvanized together Democrats and Republicans to pass horrible legislation, but they were together on it.
Here, the result of the January 6th insurrection is complete and utter, you know, where we are, we've been gridlocked.
There will be no agreements there.
They can't get anybody to vote for the commission even.
And that's a huge difference.
Yeah, and we're going to go now, we're going to go talk to Justin Glaue, who was on the floor, on the ground floor for this God and country patriot roundup, chili cook-off, yeehaw, emporium.
I can't wait to talk to Justin about this.
And Hootenanny.
So we're going to be back in just a second with Justin Glaue.
All right, everybody, we are back here with Justin Glaw, a journalist and researcher.
And unfortunately, Justin spent a little bit of his time down in Dallas, Texas, for the Forgotten Country Patriot Roundup Macaroni and Cheese Best in Show.
Whatever else they want to throw in this.
We're having Justin come on.
You might have seen One of his videos from this debacle, which was, of course, Lieutenant General and former National Security Advisor Mike Flynn being asked again if America could have a Myanmar-style military coup.
He said he saw no reason why it couldn't happen and then doubled down and said it should happen.
Justin, can you take us into what that moment was like to be there to witness it?
What was the shit?
Well, you know, yeah, it was obviously crazy.
But that moment garnered like a lot of cheers and applause.
I mean, I think if I remember right, it was almost like, if not a full standing ovation, people standing up and clapping.
When that happened, and it was kind of hard to hear the guy, you know, but everybody got the gist of what he asked.
And I didn't realize until I got out of there later and to edit that video down and put it on Twitter that Flynn, you know, the question was, why can't what happened in Myanmar happen here?
And Flynn initially said, like, no reason.
And I didn't realize until later, though, that after that, he was like, he said it should happen here.
Um, which is obviously, that's the doubling down moment.
Um, so yeah, I mean, it was obviously probably the most stunning, uh, statement of a weekend of insane and stunning statements by Flynn and a lot of others.
And, um, you know, I think for a lot of people was kind of like the highlight of it because really these people are like, they're gearing up for, uh, an ongoing and future insurrection and like as much as civil war, you know?
Well, you know, my biggest fear is how big is this movement?
And what we don't often see when we see like the videos of, you know, Flynn on stage, we don't turn around and see just how big like this crowd is.
Tell us how big and how many people were there witnessing this.
I would say it was at least a thousand people.
Maybe I heard I heard the organizers float the fifteen hundred number, which they would know because obviously you had to buy tickets to this event.
You know, it was it was big enough that You know, they essentially took over a hotel in downtown Dallas and, you know, they were obviously the largest, you know, single group there.
But I mean, it was it was significant.
It was not, you know, 20 or 30 kind of crazies.
I mean, these people from all over the country.
Yeah, you got the sense that people were descending upon Dallas, not just from the local area.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And in fact, you know, this was one of the bragging points that Flynn and others would talk about as the days went on.
It's like, this is a national movement.
We have people here from California.
We have people here from Eastern Europe.
It's more than a national movement.
It's a global movement.
So, I mean, it was a very diverse and big crowd.
Not just, I should say, geographically diverse.
Let's put it that way.
Right, right.
Justin, you know, I, sometimes I have a really hard time trying to communicate to people who haven't been to these things and these rallies what it's like.
Because, you know, obviously we'll, you know, the media will occasionally show a clip of some crazy thing somebody will say or whatever, or we'll see clips on like social media.
What we're talking about, coups, violent insurrections, anti-democratic activities, that's what these people talk about.
It's what they communicate about.
They come together and sort of just basically reaffirm to one another that this is what they want, where they want things to go.
And it's really hard to explain to people who haven't been to these things what it's like.
Can you talk about what the experience was to be in this situation?
Yeah, sure.
I mean, you know, I haven't really done much reporting on this, this far right movement other than it when it comes across my path when I'm reporting on other subject matters.
You know, and I definitely had never been to an event like this that was this big.
But there really aren't that many.
I mean, I can't really think of the last highly organized You know, a big event like this with multiple days of multiple speakers, usually when you think of a QAnon event, it's like sort of like a protest that crops up somewhere.
So with that being said, my biggest takeaways were that, you know, for people who have never been to one of these things, I mean, this is a near religious or full on religious event for these people.
I mean, it is, you know, you hear the word cult thrown around, you hear the word movement, they'll call it a movement.
I think there are some cultish aspects to it, but my thing that I took from it was, this is a religion.
These people are gathering for church to be amongst each other and to hear what the preacher has to tell them about what life is going to be going forward.
So that was the biggest thing.
And then, like you said, the other thing that I took away from it is that, you know, this is not, oh, just some crazy people online sharing memes on Twitter.
These people are armed.
They are preparing for violence, to enact violence.
They are preparing for that violence to occur if they don't get their way in the next elections, in the midterms and in 2024.
And that, to me, is my thing about the religion is just an observation that I had having never been to these things.
But if I'm going to say the biggest thing that people need to know about what I saw there is that they are planning for violence if they don't get their way. - Yeah.
Well, I just want to point out like one of the things that's happening here is It is religious in the nature of its revealed knowledge.
I mean, we're starting to see QAnon churches crop up, which are super patriotic, nationalistic, QAnon-tinged experiences where they're talking about having revealed knowledge.
They're talking about, like, having God send them dreams and messages and visions.
And it's intermingled with this whole thing and created, like, In my opinion, and I think a lot of experts, we talked to Marc-Andre Argentino earlier, a ticking time bomb.
I mean, when you're around these people and you hear them, you see them interact, you did get the feeling that they are ready to be violent, if need be.
Yes.
And I mean, look, it's hard to tell.
And the reason why this is so difficult to deal with and for people to take seriously is it's hard to tell how much of that is just bluster and, you know, just, you know, Talking and, you know, we all say things in moments of anger and frustration that we don't really mean, you know, and that we're not actually going to act on.
But the difference here is that they've already acted on it.
You know, January 6th was an insurrection attempt.
So after that, I don't think that you can discount what these people say.
As, as just bluster, you know, it's like the, it's like the thing that came up, you know, during the Trump administration, it became popular for people to say, when someone tells you who they are, believe them, right?
And I just think at this point, I mean, just, it's not worth us to dismiss these people as just talking bluster.
We should believe them when they say that if they do not, Get their way in the next election.
They will somehow try to overturn the results of that election.
And if need be, they will do it violently.
Like, I think we should believe them when they say that.
I'm kind of curious.
We heard what Flynn said, and that's pretty much off the rails in my mind.
I have to imagine, though, that being there, and if you were there for other speakers, you probably heard crazier stuff at this event.
And I'm kind of curious if you if you have any other things, tidbits that you had heard from them.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's just the one thing that sticks out in my mind.
There was a black comic.
Who was there, a pro-Trump, conservative, black comic who, you know, if his material was different, is a very funny and talented guy.
But the biggest laugh line, applause line of the entire thing that I saw was when he referred to Michelle Obama as Michael.
Because this is another thing that everybody there fervently believes, for some reason, is that Michelle Obama is actually a man.
And, uh, or is it, or as a transgender person and, and that to me, I mean, people were howling with laughter when he made that joke.
Um, so there was that.
And then the other, the other crazy sort of thing that I saw was, um, there seems to be like a disconnect between what they actually believe in regards to the 2020 election.
And, and I don't think that that people are entirely clear on it, but it's like, Either the election was stolen or there's some sort of still behind the scenes Trump is actually president thing going on.
So like there's some people who believe that he's actually still running the show and that this whole insanity about military tribunals for pedophiles is going on and all of that stuff.
So like that's insane, right?
That people think that somehow he's down in Mar-a-Lago like running the government and Biden is there as a plant and It's only a matter of time until he comes back in and arrests Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and then puts them in front of a, you know, court-martials them or something.
So there's people that believe that.
But the one thing that was very interesting to hear was that Sidney Powell, the insane lawyer who was still trying to sue over election results, said straight up, there are no military tribunals, which is like a direct refutation of one of the Like core tenets of QAnon.
And so that was interesting because somebody had asked her like, you know, what are you guys doing behind the scenes?
Like, you've got to be holding these people accountable.
And she was kind of just like, you know, like we're suing, but like, no, this whole fantasy of taking people to Gitmo and, you know, torturing them to get Trump back in office really isn't, it doesn't exist.
What I love about that is that the incoherence of those beliefs will figure out some sort of a new fashion.
So like the people who are like Sidney Powell watchers, they're going to be like, well, she said there are no military tribunals, which means that they already finished, right?
Or something like, well, Of course she would say there are none, because this is a secret military operation.
Of course she would say that.
She can't tell us about it, you know?
Well, let me ask you really quickly about that.
The people that believe that, are they the kind of people that would seem sane in, like, the other parts of their lives?
I mean, are these people who have families and kids and jobs?
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because that was another big thing that struck me immediately as soon as I got there is, you know, I'm looking at, I'm sitting there having lunch one day and I look over and here's a guy, you know, he looks, he looks like he could be like a friend of my dad's on the golf course.
And he's got this insane shirt on that's like release the Kraken, defending the Republic, you know, this, this insane QAnon shirt.
And yeah, if these people weren't in all their garb, they would look like a Country Club Republican set, you know?
They're normal people with lives and families and mortgages and jobs that subscribe to this insane set of beliefs, and then also chose to spend an entire, the first three day holiday weekend that we've had post-pandemic, holed up in a hotel in Dallas, Consuming all of this stuff.
So, you know, it's not like they're the crazy guys on the corner screaming at you, you know, with the Bible in their hand or something.
These are normal people with extremely abnormal beliefs, you know?
What I love about that, though, is, and Justin is already one of my favorite people because we recognize each other, the people who choose to spend their first three-day weekend post-pandemic going to watch the people who Who decided to spend that time?
I gotta ask you real fast before we let you go, and we really appreciate you coming on and doing this last second.
Justin, you spend a lot of time around these people.
You witness this firsthand.
What is your takeaway from all of this?
How do you now feel about the country, the current political moment?
What takeaways are you bringing with you post the For God and Country Patriot Roundup Hootenanny and Shootout?
My biggest takeaway is that, and I hate to say this because it's, it's, but I'm going to be brutally honest here is that, you know, the best thing that could happen for the country as a whole, not just for these people, but for everyone to avoid violent conflicts in the coming years is if Trump just passes away of natural causes.
Because, and look, the conspiracies will continue after that, but if he is still around and, you know, I think there's a good chance Republicans will take back potentially the House and the Senate.
In the midterms, right, which will sort of satiate these people.
But if he is still around in 24 and does not take back the White House, we're going to witness, you know, potentially widespread political violence.
And because they just will not accept any result other than him being president again.
And then I'll take that a step further and I'll say they will not accept.
It's not enough for just him to get another term in 24.
They want him forever, until he dies in office.
So even if he wins, you're gonna see efforts at, I don't even know how you would do it, but getting away with the two-term limit thing, that I think was a constitutional amendment, you're gonna see people calling for that to go away.
So that was sort of my biggest takeaway, is that after January 6th, They tried to violently overturn the results of the election, and now they're saying, well, we're going to do that again and we're going to succeed next time.
Well, thank you so much for going down there and reporting on that and coming on the show.
Justin Glau, where can the good people find you?
Yeah, you know, just Google my name and I have a newsletter that I write.
I do a weekly roundup of police killings nationwide.
I do a lot of public records work to try to get, you know, unreleased footage of that.
So my newsletter's on Substack.
And yeah, if you just Google my name and my Twitter will show up and everybody can get a hold of all of that stuff.
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Justin.
I owe you a beer.
My pleasure.
Thanks a lot, guys.
See you soon.
Later, buddy.
Oh, fuck, Nick.
I, Jared, I regret every question I asked him.
I, you know, we talk about this shit and like, Yeah, you try and retain hope and sanity.
And it's like you can you can tell that Justin in going to this thing and walking into the belly of the beast and being around these people, it shook him.
I mean, like when you literally have to say, I think the only way that we can avoid violence at this point is to hand over American democracy in totality to these people or else, you know.
There are consequences, which, again, we've seen.
We've seen the writing on the wall.
I mean, that is some that's some rough shit, man.
Yeah.
Or Trump dies, which, you know, well, I guess we'll take even if he dies.
I mean, if he died tomorrow, you know, from like a heart attack or something, everybody would just be like, oh, he was in such good health.
I mean, this is obviously a conspiracy.
Yeah, right.
And but that's the thing is, it's like the Trump, it's almost like a fishhook.
It's set.
You know what I mean?
Like they don't even need Trump at this point.
They had Trump.
They'll move beyond Trump.
They'll figure it out post-Trump.
I, man, it is frustrating.
Yes.
Yes.
OK, well, let's get a little bit more frustrated because now we're going to go to Marc-Andre Argentino, who is a conspiracy theory extremist researcher and an expert on QAnon.
I'm going to have a conversation with him about where this has come from and where it's going.
Hey everybody, we are here with Marc-Andre Argentino, one of the foremost researchers of QAnonism and online conspiracy theorism and extremist, and we're incredibly lucky to have him, one of our favorites here.
Marc-Andre Argentino is a PhD candidate at INDI and a research fellow at ICSR Center.
Marc-Andre, I wish that we had better reasons to be talking.
I always enjoy your presence, I always hate that we have to talk about this bullshit, We are taping this the day after General Michael Flynn, disgraced General Michael Flynn, appeared at the Forgotten Country Patriot Roundup and was asked why We can't have a Myanmar-style military coup.
Always one for dramatics.
Michael Flynn said, not only could we, but we should.
And obviously we have to sit here and talk about that.
Can you give the people a little bit of background of where this military coup part of QAnonism and online extremism and conspiracy theories Can you talk a little bit about that?
It feels like that's always sort of in the background.
People nod to it sometimes.
They'll call it different things, but can you talk a little bit about what that is?
So first, thanks for having me on your show again, and one day we need to just have a conversation about non-crappy topics.
Just one of these days.
Yeah, but that's who we are.
Let's just call it what it is.
It is true.
It's very true.
But the whole concept for QAnon really is about You know, making their perfect view of the world come to reality through military coups.
The whole concept was that the person posting as Q was this military insider that Trump was put into power by military intelligence to, you know, overthrow the, you know, proper election that Deep State was running to have Hillary come to power.
So there is this, you know, honorable perspective of the military overthrowing democratic processes because democratic processes aren't democratic.
They're run by the cabal.
But this is going a little bit beyond just this type of, oh, we're going to bring in a golden age where it was a digital war at the start.
They're like, oh, we're going to do propaganda.
It's an information war since January.
We saw that, you know, insurrections are quite possible.
But his comments on the weekend were It's really reacting to someone in the crowd saying, why can't we have a Myanmar-style coup in the US?
And he's saying we should.
And part of that is the fact that a lot of them are talking about there needs to be offline action in QAnon.
But it's also QAnon just has a really positive view of the coup in Myanmar.
And notwithstanding the horrible human rights violations that are taking place for them, military action overthrowing governments is a good thing because for them, the entire world is run by this cabal.
And this is the terrifying aspect where this is no longer just a bunch of internet influencers.
These are ex-intelligence officials, ex-military officials, lawyers that are still practicing in various states, some of which are yours, Jared.
These people are no longer just normalcy.
Nobody's.
They are having political clout and they're not small followings.
Lin Wood has 800,000 followers.
Flynn and Powell have 300,000 on Telegram.
And it's just, it's scary and interesting to see how this is happening because it's not only QAnon anymore, but how these ecosystems work, you know.
The amount of people with sun and red flags on their display pictures in QAnon communities raises a lot of red flags because that's not You know, democratically intended.
This is all people that are have these accelerations ideas to overthrow them and QAnon, though they don't necessarily fit the acceleration is we're going to use real violence to get there.
The narratives of mob mentalities to push a large amount of people to, you know, symbolic buildings that could turn violence is quite possible.
We've seen them able to organize large protests, conferences like we're seeing now, and the reality that maybe we won't see a Capitol Hill again, but at state legislator levels or showing up at, you know, recounts in the midterms, the type of stuff they've done with Arizona or Maricopa, you know, the discrediting of our democratic institutions is a real possibility with these actors.
Yeah, and you know, we've been following this for the past few years, obviously, and I don't know how you have felt about it, but one of the more frustrating aspects of watching this thing take place was it's been treated very much as a lark.
Like, this is some ridiculous thing that, like, really ridiculous people believe.
But I, you know, as I'm doing the research that I'm doing on my work, and I assume that you are as well, one of the things that we find is it doesn't matter how ridiculous of an idea people can have, it actually starts to shift reality for people.
And in fact, there are people who believe QAnon principles who might not have even have heard the word QAnon at this point.
And it sort of has seeped in.
I believe I was looking at an article earlier, it said something along the lines of 15% of the U.S.
population now holds QAnon or QAnon adjacent principles.
And one of the things it does is, it's not necessarily going to be that a large group of people will rise up and carry Q flags as, you know, like maybe they did on January 6th.
But it actually starts to change perception, it starts to change political beliefs, it starts to shift reality, and it actually starts to make the idea of some sort of anti-democratic action, violence, or some sort of a coup become more possible and become more palatable to the people who are receptive to it.
No, and that's very true.
And the study you were pointing out is quite interesting.
And it was misrepresented in a bit in the media in the sense they were saying it's 15 percent of people believe in these QAnon narratives or ideologies, but it really more representative of how these conspiracy theories go beyond just QAnon, right?
The three questions were, you know, do you believe that the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S.
are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global sex trafficking ring?
The most early iteration like that that we are aware of right now is QAnon, obviously.
Satanic panic was, you know, not that long ago in at least academic memory, just a couple of decades.
It's like new material for us academics.
But, you know, it's still, that's been there for a while.
There's a storm coming that will sweep away the elites in power and restore the rightful leaders.
That apocalyptic language is just part and parcel of, you know, evangelical and Christianity in the U.S.
This is not anything new.
And then the third question is, because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.
Militias, accelerationists, neo-Nazis, like violent extremists have had this type of language for years.
What's scary is 23% of Republicans answered yes to the first question.
28% answered yes to the last two.
But you have Democrats that had answered yes at 8%, 14%, 70%, independents a little higher.
So, you know, basically, if you're looking at all Americans, 15% said, yeah, the government's corrupt, and it's controlled by a Satan-worshiping pedophile, at least, right?
20% believe there's some apocalypse coming to destroy the world, and 15% think violence is a legitimate way To basically re-establish some perceived perfect version of the U.S.
Those are not small numbers in aggregate.
Yes, it's a sample study.
Yes, there's issues because it was weighted towards an older population than a younger one, but You know, you look at that crowd at the conference, it's a lot of older people in the crowd.
Yes, younger people will buy tickets.
A lot of people are streaming this, but it still shows that this is the type of mentality that we're going.
And, you know, just because former President Trump is no longer in power, that we have a new administration, the pandemic is, you know, weeding away, we're getting all these vaccines.
It's not there's going to be like, you know, a silver bullet, everything bad is going to go away.
Midterms are going to ramp up in the U.S.
in six months.
That's how the cycle works for you guys.
So the election, the electoral turmoil is going to come back.
They're still running about the election fraud that happened in November.
They're running about the recount that's happening right now with everyone observing, you know, marked ballots and secret papers and fiber from China.
Like these type of conspiracy, this distrust in our democratic constitution supersedes QAnon and it's made his way Not only to the fringe, like when we were talking about this, people were like, the first time, these are crazy people that live in their basement.
No, the whole point of our initial conversation was like, these people are real threats.
They're going to be real threats.
We've passed the point of these are real threats.
They're going to continue to be so, but it goes beyond that.
We have elected officials, newly elected or older elected officials that believe in this stuff, and they are shifting the political landscape.
In support of these ideas at levels of power that you would not have thought of, even when we first talked about this.
And this is what's alarming is that this is not only fringe actors, but these are people with power that are pushing this message.
And this is where the concern is.
Because if it's not a threat to national security, if it's not only a threat to our public health, It's also a threat now to our democratic institutions, and it's not a foreign threat, it's a domestic one.
This is something that is homegrown, and it goes beyond the US because these are transnational actors.
You guys might be the first place that's happening this because of the big election, but if we think of other G7 countries or other large Western nations, this issue is going to be happening all over the place, and that is something that's scary.
We are very American focused, but This is not something you think is happening in my home country of Canada.
We've seen it similar in the UK and in France and Australia.
And this is, you know, this shift in how we perceive our institutions is a lot of concern.
Yeah, you know, I was doing research on this new book that I'm doing and I came across this thing called the Popish Plot, which is just this story for anyone who doesn't know that it's back in the day where, of course, there was a lot of anti-Catholicism.
And basically you had a QAnon style grifter.
Right, who created this idea that like there were secret plots against the British crown, they were going to assassinate the king and then they were going to bring it, you know, is a threat from outside a threat from within.
And, you know,
The weird thing is, like, that guy got exposed, but the Popish plot elements ended up helping lead to the Glorious Revolution of 1688, where they invited the Dutch to invade Britain, and then over in America, and this is a fun thing that should be taught in schools, but obviously isn't, helped inspire what's called the Protestant Revolution in Maryland, where you had John Coon raise up a bunch of people, it's said, because there was a Catholic conspiracy, and they overthrew the government of Maryland,
And banned Catholicism.
And the thing that people don't understand is that these germinations, especially when there are moments of crisis or when there are giant political and economic clashes, they breed larger action.
And we're currently at a moment, like you were saying, in all of these countries, we have political crises, we have crises of faith, we have crises of economics, we now have public health crises.
And all of these things are coming to a head, and this stuff sort of, it works in the background, right?
It's sort of like an operating system that then goes ahead and colors how people see the world and how they behave.
And we're currently watching, not just in elections, which are starting to fall apart, but now we're watching violence, we're watching proposals of violence.
I mean, this stuff ends up taking hold of people.
But it's also shifting how we perceive, you know, like our own perception of of rights and human rights in the sense that it's changing what we perceive what is right and wrong.
And either some actions that would not have been acceptable are seen as acceptable.
Certain loss of life, certain restrictions, certain legislation that no one would have thought of, whether you are on the left or the right of the political sphere, would not have been acceptable.
But the fact that we are Pushing the pendulums further one way or the other, that we're shifting our perception of what is expectable, this is what's becoming dangerous.
Because now, if the pendulum swings so far one way, trying to reel it back will take a lot more work.
So we're not looking at, you know, a flashpoint, something's going to happen, and then a flashpoint is going to die down.
This is going to be a death by a thousand cuts.
And it's going to take the same amount of time to heal those thousand cuts.
And this is what's dangerous.
It's this weakening of our social fabric.
And it's not only going to happen Because of the pandemic, it's only going to happen with elections, but it's going to come through all aspects of our society.
And this lack of social cohesion is quite alarming.
And it's not something new.
These cycles in history happen all the time.
It's just, again, history is easily forgotten unless you start reading through the books.
But we've seen this cycle above and beyond.
It just happens differently.
We have new technologies, new boundaries, new ways of transferring invitation and traveling.
But These phenomena are not new and we are seeing these come back and it's going to be too late by the time we deal with it because we're so slow to action.
We're watching a train wreck happen in slow motion.
It's frustrating to do but that's the reality of what it is right now and You know, people watch groups like QAnon foment as, oh, they're weird, they're funny.
Well, look at the type of political influence they have.
If that's not alarming, think of the other actors in these space to have that type of influence that, you know, we might not be talking about.
But they are going to get out there.
And it's, again, transnational.
This is the other thing.
It's not only happening here.
If you think that you're safe outside of the U.S., this type of behavior is happening there, too, just at a different rate, maybe in different contexts, maybe different elements.
But we're seeing this happening in multiple countries at the same time.
Yeah, and that's, you know, I'm right there with you in terms of the frustration.
I mean, watching people, first of all, aggressively forget what happened four months ago.
There was an attempted coup, an insurrection at the Capitol, in which members of both parties, including the Vice President of the United States of America, were targeted for execution.
And now it's just like, eh, it wasn't that big of a deal.
You know, it wasn't that big.
And I also love that all of the evidence is there.
Like you were saying, this is not only transnational, but it's also transnational and coordinated.
We know that extremist groups, particularly white supremacist extremist terrorist groups, share information, they communicate, they train with each other.
They've used this theory, this conspiracy theory, whether or not they believe it or not, for, you know, fuel for the fire in order to recruit people and in order to do You know, to gain power and influence.
And we've even seen with QAnon, I mean, how long have you been researching QAnon?
When did it get on your radar?
After the Hoover Dam incidents in 2018, 2019.
Right.
So, of course, those of us who know the history of QAnon know that it's changed.
It began as this Chan phenomenon, and then It seemingly became useful for some people, and people like your Michael Flynn's or the people around Donald Trump, and they started to actually use it for their own benefits.
Can you talk a little bit about what these conspiracy theories can do when they're weaponized, as opposed to just sort of happening?
Like, what happens when a group or a person realizes that things like these are useful?
So one is that you have a large base of individuals that are willing to mobilize.
They were primed, right?
You're already talking about your soldiers in a digital war.
Well, if you're losing the digital war, it's not that much of a step to say, hey, you know, we're going to go protest.
And it's not necessarily that all of January 6th was coordinated and planned, right?
Elements and some actors had planned and coordinated stuff.
But it's also important to remember that this also started with a large political rally And it grew out of that.
And who were mostly at that rally?
There was a lot of QAnon individuals.
And you could see that at the right time, the right grievances, the right months and months of strife, lockdowns, economic punishment, you know, the suffering, that's all happened.
It's easy to see why people were pissed off and want to change.
And if they feel that the election was stolen because that's all they hear and see in their ecosystems, You know, if this was on the left, yeah, we probably would be pissed if all we heard was the election was stolen and, you know, Donald Trump won and we have evidence of ballot tampering.
Like, I'm pretty sure there's people that would be pissed and they'd be doing the same thing.
It's just right time, right place, right circumstances.
And that's what's terrifying.
But what's more alarming, like you said, it's been four months and people have forgotten.
Like, Denver Riggleman, the former GOP congressman, was talking about this last week.
Like, the 1-6 Commission never happened.
It's like as if this never took place.
It was like the first insurrection in modern history happened in the United States, and no one cares.
And the reason about this, too, is it's almost like we've swept these actors on the rug.
The massive deplatforming that happened You know, weeks after the event, it's looked like they've disappeared, even though these actors have moved to, I think it's 40 odd platforms that I'm, I'm writing a paper right now about how they've moved to these tall tech platforms.
It's like 40 different platforms.
But what we're seeing is conservative actors, conspiracy theorists and extremists have just joined ecosystems inhabited by violent extremists.
And this is the other thing.
You may have political actors leveraging these as an electoral base and a constituency, but now you have violent extremists that see a massive pool of potential recruits that they could come and bring into the fold and weaponize and they're pissed off and they're ready to get radicalized.
And the overlap between more extremist ideologies in QAnon circles, but also these more extremist groups adapting the same language as QAnon, some of their conspiracy, whether willing or not, or even because they've been there beforehand, has shown that there's been this symbiosis between these movements, and that's concerning.
The merging of these radicalization pipelines in the long term is going to be terrifying because it's not singular groups or singular ideology.
These spaces are so amorphous now that you could blend all these things.
Like I've seen Adam Woff and QAnon incels.
I've seen three percenters QAnon Oath Keepers.
You've seen like Wolverine Militias with QAnon ideology.
One of the guy was part of the plot to kidnap the governor in Michigan.
Like the merging of these conspiracy theories and extremist ideology is not new.
It's new at scale.
That's what's happening right now.
And that's what's concerning in the long run.
And, you know, even if you keep stable at a small percentage of these individuals becoming real threat actors, because there's so many new players happening in these spaces, that's where it might increase, because the possibility May say the same, but the amount of possible actors that will become threats has just gotten bigger.
And this is something that's terrifying because the media and there's some great reporters, great researchers that are keeping an eye on this.
Others have kind of just forgotten what's happened.
And, you know, if this was any other incident, maybe at a different time, we'd be harping and harping and harping on this.
You know, if this was, you know, BLM that tried to do an insurrection on January 6th, the media on the right would be harping this 24-7 nonstop.
So why are we forgetting what's happened?
Why are we forgetting this threat against democracy?
And that's what's concerning, too.
It's kind of our own complacency to almost say, this is OK, this is normal, when it's not.
It doesn't matter where you are in the world.
That type of perception of our democracy should not simply be tossed away.
It's no, this is scary.
This is dangerous.
We do not accept these type of authoritarian behaviors.
Um, so I'm always happy to, well, happy again is not the operative word.
I'm always pleased when I get to talk to other people who spend a significant amount of times in these really ugly little circles and pools.
What I have witnessed, and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say, because we like to get in the mind of these people so we can understand it, so we can start to work against it.
I sort of see it's almost like a process of grieving with some of these people where They start working through the process of rejecting anything approaching liberal democracy.
They begin and they're like, why doesn't anybody do anything?
We just have to get enough votes.
We have to mobilize.
And then eventually you start to see redpilling and blackpilling, of course.
We have these conspiracies against us.
That's why we're unable to do it.
Eventually, it reaches the point where there's no way that elections can be won, which is what we're watching in America right now is a large scale right wing rejection of the idea that democracy is even a possibility.
And then you reach this sort of higher point.
It's almost like the highest level of masonry, right?
Where all of a sudden it's like, no, the only way to do this is through open fascism and oppression.
It's going to take violence.
It's going to take an overthrow.
It's going to take some sort of a physical repression or restriction.
Does that, does that match with what you see in these pools?
It does.
It does.
And it's it's basically if we think of like in-group out-group dynamics, the other is not necessarily a specific group or race, but the other has also become democracy and these democratic institutions.
And this is what you're targeting over time.
Now, there's already A well-established subgroup of the extremist population that are anti-established by their accelerations, and they know violence is the only solution.
These group guys never even liked Trump.
But we're seeing in these spaces now that this anti-establishment mindset, and if, you know, conservative actors and conspiracy theorists and other lighter extremists I've tried to do the political route.
I've tried to find political solutions, but are realizing they're not.
And they're getting censored.
You know, they're getting into these spaces where these more extreme people were already there saying, let's go recruit these people and show them that these are our young brothers.
They need to understand that there is no political solution, that violence is the only way.
This is the type of mindset they're coming to.
And even if they don't You know, want to perpetrate the violent, they will accept violent solutions.
So talking about the possibility of a military coup, your reaction as someone in these spaces would not necessarily be, oh, no, that's a bad solution.
It's we if we can't win by election, we need to destroy those that are in power and violence is OK.
Send the National Guard, send the military, send whatever you need to do what you have to do.
And what that's going to do also in erosion is if you see individuals perpetrating violence, You're not going to say, oh, that's wrong.
You're going to accept that as a noble act.
And that's also a way that you're pushing the goalposts a little bit at a time.
So if you're not going to perpetrate the violence, you're going to accept it.
You're going to normalize it.
And that's that's also scary.
But that's not again, it's not a flashpoint that people will be reporting.
It's this type of slow burn.
It's not sexy to write about or report on.
It's not going to hit headlines.
But that's where the real damage goes.
This is, you know, six months, eight months, 12 months, two years, three years down the line.
No, at the next election, Biden's probably a one-term president at his age.
So we know that's going to be a new Democratic candidate.
Is Trump going to come back in 2024?
Is it going to be someone else even more extreme, depending where the party goes?
Or less extreme if they decide to take a step back.
But this whole point of conflict is, depending on what happens, these decisions made by these political figures will determine the reaction of the population, notwithstanding You know, another BLM style event, another COVID, another whatever we can't predict.
But if you shift the goalpost and it's basically a more extreme candidate comes in for the GOP, and you have someone more extreme on the left coming in for the Dems, that type of cultural clash, that ideological clash trickles down and you have populations that will be primed to butt heads.
And this is the type of stuff that Hard to predict, hard to talk about, but these are conversations we need to have and have publicly because people who make these decisions are the individuals who are going to go vote.
And you need to have these, you know, not only informed voting decisions, but you need to break the mold of the emotional gut decision of, I've been a GOP, my parents are GOP, I'll vote that.
I've been like, even in Canada, you know, we may have four parties, but really there's two parties that consistently win.
And it's going to be, I, my parents voted, you know, liberal, my parents voted conservative.
I'm going to vote this.
Voting has to be an educated process and we need to break that.
It's not just and or or no political solution at all.
You know, these are your three options.
It's not great ones.
We need to think what is best.
How do we make these decisions?
And it's going to be a challenge, but this is what's scary.
It's.
We can't even have these conversations because it's automatically, if you're either a Nazi or a communist or, you know, basically both sides, you need to be executed and you can't even have these conversations.
But this is where the polarization has gone.
And it starts at the bottom and it moves away, but it's also now top down.
So we're having these, it's basically an hourglass instead of these two type of pyramids when you think about how these models meet each other.
And that inflection point in the middle is where the real scary work happens.
Fuck, man.
I just hate seeing this train coming down the tracks.
And the damnedest thing about it is what we were saying.
It's very...
It's very apparent, and that's the sad thing about it.
Like, I appreciate the work that you do and the numbers that you crunch on this stuff, but it's just, it's so readily apparent, and people are so readily in denial of it.
We appreciate you so much, Marc-Andre.
I would love if one day we could come on the show and talk about, isn't it great that we avoided that train?
Oh my god, that would be great.
Like, just have like a happier, look at how we avoided this train ride.
Can you believe that, like, the media is treating this like it's a serious thing and there are actually, like, firewalls being put in place?
It'd be wonderful.
Um, Marc-Andre, you are a delight.
Where can the good people find you?
They could find me on Twitter at underscore M A Argentino.
And that's where I post all my stuff and links to articles and everything are found there.
All right.
Thanks, man.
You are the best.
Awesome.
Take care.
And that was Marc-Andre Argentino.
Thank you to Marc-Andre and also Justin Glau for coming on and talking about this incident.
And again, we talked about it.
It wasn't going to be a fun episode.
It can't all be shits and giggles, but man, it feels not great.
No, I mean, when Justin told us, when I asked him if he heard crazier things than what we heard from Flynn.
And then as soon as I asked that, I kind of just had to sit back and realize this is going to be bad because he was ready to go.
He's like, yeah, it got worse.
It's worse and it's probably bigger than we think.
I think this movement might be bigger in terms of people, the numbers. - Well, and it's even people who don't know that they're part of it.
That's the thing is it's like how many people believe this stuff that don't even know that it came from QAnon or its origins And like I was saying with Marc Andre, they might never even have heard the term QAnon, but they believe QAnon things.
So it is definitely in the right.
It has infected them and it is growing and it could possibly make future violence anti-democratic actions.
We have to recognize it.
We have to be aware of it.
We have to work against it.
And it can't just be us.
Like everybody else needs to wake up on this stuff too.
And hopefully this Flynn thing, hopefully this will be a moment that will wake some people up and make them realize like how real this is.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, there's got to be some like, you know, whatever, quote unquote, normal Republicans who are still backing the party who would need to look at the mirror and say, well, why is the party that I'm so fervently supporting filled with these bad shit, crazy people?
Like that needs to be a question that they have to ask themselves and come to terms with.
I think a lot of people have and that's been good, but I think we need more.
Yeah, I do too.
Yeah, so here's to doing better on this whole thing and getting past it.
This is a major, major crisis.
We have to take it seriously and work against it.
Hopefully, you're not going to have some sort of a major crisis or a Myanmar-style coup.
Remember, the first one doesn't work.
It's always the second.
It's always the second.
Oh, I hate that shit.
If you need us until this weekend or episode, which will be coming out this Friday, you can find Nick at CanYouHearMeSMH.
