Megyn Kelly and Maureen Callahan dissect Iran's shooting down of an F-15E, debating mechanical failure versus combat loss amidst conflicting rescue reports. They critique Tiger Woods' DUI arrest, his alleged call to Trump, and his opiate admission, arguing for prison time over leniency. The discussion shifts to Blake Lively's dismissed harassment claims due to an unsigned agreement, Michelle Obama's negative podcast interview, Melissa Gilbert's hypocrisy regarding her husband's molestation charges, and Ryan Murphy's "Love Story," which Callahan condemns for romanticizing JFK Jr.'s death while ignoring his depression and misrepresenting Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy's role in the crash. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Pilots Down in Iran Strait00:06:37
What is this?
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Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show.
Live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.
Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly.
Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show.
Maureen Callahan will be here in just a bit, but we've got to start with something stunning happening in Iran right now.
Multiple news organizations confirming that a U.S. fighter jet has crashed in Iran and that a search and rescue mission is now underway for the two person crew.
To our listening audience, we're showing you video right now from Iran verified by CNN that shows U.S. aircraft that's part of the search.
For the missing Americans.
Both Axios and the New York Times reporting that officials believe Iranian forces shot down the jet, and the Washington Post reports that the aircraft is believed to be an Air Force F 15E.
The fate of the crew remains unclear, but Israel's Channel 12 is reporting that one of the crew members has been successfully rescued.
Let's pray that report is correct.
They are citing, quote, Western sources for their information, but as of this hour, 12 01 Eastern, That's not been confirmed by the American press.
CNN is also airing this image of an ejection seat on the ground in Iran, citing Iranian state media.
You can see it looks like a parachute is attached to what appears to be the pilot's chair or the co pilot's chair, can't tell.
This picture from the Iranian state media as well of a partially destroyed wing of an F 15.
It's also been circulating online.
According now to multiple reports, Now you can see it right there.
An anchor on Iran's state television read a statement calling on residents to help capture the downed Americans and turn them over to security forces for a reward.
In other words, there's now a bounty on the head of the Americans inside of Iran.
I thought we were supposed to be helping these people.
I thought we were supposed to be greeted as liberators.
I thought the vast majority of the Iranians were happy we were there.
Why is it now so?
Apparently, the hatred is widespread.
That a news anchor there is comfortable saying, Yeah, work to find the pilot.
There's a bounty on his head and turn him over to the Iranian guard.
Not like shelter them, hide them till we can get them back to the Americans.
There are also reports that Iranian state media is encouraging residents to shoot at search and rescue operations personnel.
So, our guys who are now over there in helicopters trying to perform the rescue may be getting shot at as they encourage residents to take up arms against us.
Again, I thought we were going to be treated as liberators.
According to the New York Post, the Iranians are claiming that the Revolutionary Guards, quote, Their newly developed and advanced air defenses are what downed this jet, which they report is, quote, completely destroyed.
Now, assuming all of this is true, and we don't have any official confirmation at this time, I mean, trying to piece information together out of Iran right now is like trying to staple jello.
It's just very difficult and not trustworthy.
But we do trust CNN's reporting on an American military jet going down.
But this would be the first time that Iran has downed a U.S. aircraft inside the country since the war began.
This morning on Truth Social, President Trump again commenting, not on this yet, but on the Strait of Hormuz with new messaging.
I mean, we think it's hard to decipher what he means, writing, With a little more time, we can easily open the Hormuz Strait.
Who is we?
We don't know.
Take the oil and make a fortune.
It would be a gusher for the world.
Three question marks.
Signed President Donald J. Trump.
I genuinely do not know what he means.
Does he mean we, the United States?
Because he just said the other night in his remarks that it will open up as soon as we leave, suggesting it's up to the people who rely on the oil coming out of the strait to get it back open.
And the president suggesting as soon as we, the people who are bombing Iran, leave Iran, that will happen.
But now he's saying we will open the strait and create a gusher for the world.
Take the oil.
Take whose oil?
What do you mean?
Like, I.
This is just, this is no way to communicate war strategy, war thoughts, war plans, war considerations that he wants our input on, that he wants to test.
Obviously, he wants a reaction from the public very clearly.
And I'm sure lots of us would like to give one.
But how can we based on that?
It's just, I think I speak Trump pretty well.
I've been covering the president very, very closely for more than 10 years now, more like 20 when he wasn't president, too.
And I don't understand what he's saying there.
And so I'm sure I'm not.
Look, the top thing right now is not the Trump tweet.
It is our guys, our fighter pilots, one, potentially two, who are down in Iran and possibly one recovered.
Again, not yet confirmed.
One Israeli outlet is reporting that.
Joining me now for a reaction is Wiz Buckley.
He's a former Top Gun pilot and founder of the No Fallen Heroes and Sacred Warrior Fellowship.
He's here along with Jason Redmond, a retired Navy SEAL.
Mechanical Issues and Air Superiority00:15:29
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Welcome back, Wiz and Jason.
Great to have you both.
This just in via CBS News.
They too confirm one rescue.
Thank God.
Thank God, at least one.
US forces rescued one crew member from the downed F 15E fighter jet over Iran, two US officials say.
So that's the good news that one's been recovered.
Thank God.
Wiz, you fly these jets, you know exactly what they're dealing with here.
What have you gleaned from the reporting we have so far?
Well, Megan, good to see you.
Thanks for having me.
Let's go 100,000 foot.
First of all, there, uh, this could have been a mechanical issue.
Uh, I had a right engine fail in my F-18 and an operation Southern watch, no fly zone mission over Iraq.
I couldn't limp all the way back to the carrier.
I barely made it to Kuwait International.
So this could have been a mechanical issue.
Uh, of course, Iran's going to claim no matter what that they shot one of our aircraft down.
So could be mechanical.
Uh, something else you just showed a video of our CSAR, right?
Combat search and rescue.
You.
There was an HC 130, and it looked like two of the Jolly Greens, the HH 60s, refueling from the wings.
So, the vaunted Iranian air defense, they would not be flying at that low of an altitude if we did not have air superiority.
So, again, you know, the first casualty in combat is the first casualty.
But let me just ask you sorry to interrupt, Wiz, but even if our guys are down, like even if we're looking for downed American pilots?
Well, they would be.
They would be down at that altitude, but if The Iranian air defenses were so great in their AAA anti aircraft artillery, those are sitting ducks, right?
So I'm leaning towards mechanical, but it doesn't matter at this point if they did get shut down.
The instant that that air crew ejected, Megan, a well oiled machine kicks into operation.
These CSAR, the Combat Search and Rescue Forces of the United States Air Force, are some of the most elite on the face of this planet.
They train for years for this exact scenario.
They've been sitting around for the past month.
And when that alarm sounded, a well oiled machine kicked off.
An HHC 130 got airborne to be able to tank and provide command and control.
They also have PJs, pararescue airmen, on board to jump out of the aircraft.
Then the Jolly Greens launch, and then the A 10s, the Sandys, we call them, to provide air to ground surface fire.
And then we also have drones.
So this is a well oiled machine, Megan.
I guarantee you these folks are in pretty good hands.
Let me be clear to the Iranians.
If you do capture an aircrew, the Geneva Convention applies.
If one hair on their head is harmed, if you think President Trump is upset now, just wait until something like that happens.
So, this is a well oiled machine, Megan, in process.
The fact that they already potentially rescued one of the aircrews is a good sign because when you pull the ejection handle in a two seat aircraft, in the blink of an eye, it's about a second, both aircrew are out of that aircraft and in parachutes.
So, depending on the winds, they probably landed.
In close to the same area.
So our forces know where to look.
But thoughts and prayers go out to the air crew and obviously the families who got a phone call or a knock on the door.
Let's pray they come home safe.
Oh, God.
Oh, my God.
I mean, I wonder do they let the families know that quickly that their loved one is involved in this particular situation?
There's a whole, I'm not going to dig too deep into what happens on that side, Megan, but let's just say on the squadron level, we are fully prepared.
For all of this.
As an aviator, I'm fully prepared.
As Jason can attest to, when he gives his brief, we go through SEER, survival, evasion, resistance, escape training.
We have all sorts of secret squirrel code words and radios and all sorts of stuff.
I'm going to leave that aside until these aircrew are brought back safe.
But there's a whole system in place.
This is not a surprise.
When this happened, folks who were trained to do this said, let's go.
And they're doing it right now.
I mean, Jason, for the civilians who just care about the troops, it's scary, right?
Because it's like the last thing you want is one of our guys winding up in the hands of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and having to rely on the Geneva Convention.
Like, I wouldn't put my money on any honor amongst these guys.
So it's scary.
But yeah, so as a professional soldier, I guess you look at it a little differently.
Yeah, Megan, 100%.
First off, thanks for having me on.
My thoughts and prayers to not only the pilots and their families, but to the CSAR crews that are now.
Launching on what they do best.
And Wiz is 100% right.
These guys and gals, they've trained for years.
That package, once it launches, if we didn't already have some high level of air superiority, we've even upped the ante exponentially and the levels of jamming and things we're doing.
That package that launched wasn't just the CSAR package, it was layers upon layers of aircraft and electronic warfare that has penetrated into Iran to get our guys.
Depending on where they landed, is going to depend on the capabilities of the guys to get on the ground and obviously put that security around them and then bring in our aircraft to extract them.
We've got to evaluate, are they injured?
What is their level of mobility?
What they can do?
What level of denied area?
Are they in an area that's heavily controlled by the RRGC or are they in more of a rural area?
And then Megan, it's going to go back to what you stated at the beginning.
Nothing, nothing.
Iran puts out is fact.
Everything that they are playing a very high stakes game of information warfare.
But the problem is, is the IRGC now controls the country.
That is the reality.
And I made this statement at CPAC last weekend.
For anyone who has ever questioned our Second Amendment rights and the ability of American citizens to have weapons and what the original intent of our founding fathers was, it was the last check and balance against a tyrannical government.
So for citizens in a nation that don't have weapons, there's no way for them to stand up.
And resist.
So, what's happening is there's massive amounts of pressure from within Iran and within the IRGC.
So, I guarantee, even if that news anchor was sympathetic to America and she would like to see this diehard regime overthrown, she is, or he, I'm not sure which, is receiving so much pressure.
I guarantee their families are being threatened.
If there is any signs of resistance, they're snuffing them out.
So, of course, he or she is going to say, hey, because that is the messenger.
And I was reading earlier that.
Good point.
Iran is prepping for a ground invasion, and they're doing it in a way they're forcing citizens into positions to fight.
Children as young as 12 years old.
I was reading that there's kids that have been killed in IRGC checkpoints because they're being placed into harm's way into the war zone.
So make no mistake, I think the majority of Iranian citizens are sympathetic.
They want freedom.
They want a change.
Protect our citizens if they're given the opportunity.
Of course, the messaging coming from the leadership is going to be turn these people over and you need to step up and support the IRGC.
Megan, real quick.
Just to be clear, I'll give it back to you in one second, Wiz, but just FYI Axios, the New York Times, and CNN are all reporting that the jet was shot down.
So, you know, those are three relatively solid American sources.
I mean, it's a thing.
The thing about media bias right now is you have to be, there are certain things you can and you cannot trust the media for.
If there's a massive weather story, you know, you can read the New York Times just fine.
Like, like, hurricane hits Florida, you can trust what they're going to report.
As soon as it veers into anything political or that might reflect, Poorly on the Trump administration.
You've got to have your hefty dose of skepticism on.
On basic war reporting about our military fighter pilots, I trust these guys not to misreport the facts as they know them.
Beyond that, like how it reflects on the Trump administration, no, not at all.
But in any event, if Axios, New York Times, and CNN are reporting shot down, I tend to believe it more.
But to your point, Wiz, who knows?
I mean, it's no matter what, best case scenario, fog of war.
But what do you think about the fact that we got the one guy, Wiz, and not the other?
Great question.
Before I answer that, just to piggyback on what Jason said, and this is public information so I can talk about it.
When I flew combat sorties over Iraq, Megan, we had what's called a bloodshed.
It wasn't even a piece of paper, it was like some sort of material that was waterproof and you couldn't even rip it.
So we would, it said on it that you could, if, and you handed this, it had Farsi.
I don't even know how many other languages were on this, Megan, but it had Farsi in all the languages of the region.
And it said, And I'm going to paraphrase.
I am an American flyer.
I mean, you know, harm.
If you return me to friendly forces, you know, you'll get, you know, 1,000 gold coins, whatever it said, Megan.
But to Jason's point, not everybody in Iran is going to hate a U.S. aviator.
If anything, they might be sheltering that person.
And knowing the United States and Israel, we're going to hook those people up that helped us air crew.
So, you know, obviously, if they parachuted right into an IRGC compound or a police headquarters, it's going to be a different story here.
But we do carry things on there that say, To talk to locals like, hey, here, if you can help me evade, your reward's going to be huge.
And again, Megan, again, with the shoot down at this point, I really don't care, to be honest with you, if it was shot down or if it was a mechanical issue.
If it were shot down, let's take this to the next point.
Oh, so you're winning?
I mean, it's absolutely insane.
No, it's just, I mean, to your point, it's a little better for us, is it not, if it were a mechanical failure?
Yes.
Because then it's not necessarily eyes on the jet at the moment it goes down.
But, Megan, even in North Vietnam, you know, You know, there were reports of a lucky farmer with a bolt action rifle being able to, you know, shoot down a helicopter with a lucky BB.
So we own the airspace over Iran.
The fact that we watch videos of A 10s doing gun runs over this airspace just means we have air superiority.
If there's going to be a lucky shot, there's going to be a lucky shot.
This is combat.
You will never have 90, you'll never have 100%, but having greater than 90% air superiority actually moves you into air dominance.
So I get it.
It can be a propaganda win, but Okay, so now you're winning and we should surrender because you got a lucky shot on a Strike Eagle.
And again, Megan, I don't know if those sources are reporting from, hey, we heard this from the Pentagon or we're still going on Iranian media that we shot this thing down.
I'll trust that.
They wouldn't go off of Iranian media without reporting.
Well, you know who I'm going to believe, Megan?
A man I've known for over 20 years who's a great American is Raisin.
I know Dan Kane, and when he comes to a microphone and a podium and tells us what happened, I'm going to believe that.
Yeah, they're citing U.S. sources, all of these American publications, but we'll see.
How about the fact that, what do you make of the fact?
I'll go with you, Jason, on this, that they found the one, but they didn't find the other.
I mean, I guess that's somewhat promising because now Americans, like they're back in the hands of the good guys, the one pilot, because that guy's going to have a whole host of information, right, that potentially could help them find the other.
And I'm sure they've got some sort of.
Mathematicians doing the physical, like the crunching the numbers in terms of the geography and what the radius might be for recovery of the other guy.
Yeah, 100%, Megan.
Although I don't know, yes.
The pilot they recover, and the question is, is he back in the hands of the Americans?
Or right now, was it Israeli forces on the ground who actually swooped in?
No, it says U.S. forces rescued one crew member.
U.S. forces.
They will go, but I will say this.
I've never ejected from a jet in flight.
I do know it's incredibly violent.
I don't know, Wiz, if you have.
The question becomes, what level?
Guarantee you, Wiz has done it.
No, God, no.
I've never had to eject.
No, no, no.
As Jason alluded to, they don't make you do that like in training.
Oh, you do an ejection trainer, but it's one, like one hundredth of the force, and it hurt.
I mean, when you pull that ejection handle, it's an instantaneous 10 to 20 G's in the blink of an eye.
So when you're in the speed and all these things that are happening, there's so many factors that go into that ejection that impact what's going on with the pilot.
So for the pilot, they recovered to provide information to be able to say that.
He's going to be able to provide information on what was happening leading up to the moment that if they were shot down.
And I'll say this, Megan.
I mean, it is war.
I've often said this in war a 12 year old with an AK can kill you just as fast as a sniper, a 30 year trained sniper on the battlefield.
Sometimes luck plays a major part in combat.
The fact that we're able to launch and go after these guys and get them, the fact that we're already porting that American forces have recovered one.
Now, here's the deal winds play a big part.
The angle of the aircraft when they ejected, whether they were in a spin, whether they had been inverted, any of these things play a huge factor in what happened when they ejected.
So, Depending on where they ejected and how they ejected, there could be a great level of separation between these pilots.
So, where one landed may be in an easier area to get to them, and where another landed, it could be separated by a couple thousand yards or even more.
That's the reality, depending on the winds and how they ejected.
And here's the thing when CSAR forces are on standby, they're literally on immediate launch.
Those guys are on standby, and when the call comes, they're in the air and they're gone.
American Exceptionalism in Action00:15:29
They're literally in their gear.
On standby when they're waiting for these calls to go off.
And it is a race.
That is the reality.
They have to launch and get to that area because we're racing against enemy forces who are also trying to get to our pilots.
And the reality is, who can get to them first?
So, what do we know about the other pilot?
Are they injured?
Are they, you know, they could be on the ground injured someplace.
And we're pinging off signaling devices to find them and get to them and lock them down.
So, all those things are happening right now.
Yeah.
Hey, Megan, the.
I just want to say before I go back to Wes, just to remind our audience, Jason knows what he is talking about that anybody with a machine gun can take down a jet because he was shot by a machine gun serving in Fallujah seven times, resulting in 37 surgeries, 1,200 stitches.
And you are the one who wrote the infamous sign that would be hanging at Walter Reed that we have a copy of right here in our Red Studio on Do Not Feel Sorry for Me.
Amen.
Do not come into this room unless you are positive.
I would.
I will get back 100% what is 100%.
It's the most I can get out of myself and then 10% more.
I mean, that's who we're talking with here, a genuine war hero with the best attitude of anybody we've ever met in real life.
Amen.
Just as a reminder for the listening audience go ahead, Wiz.
Megan, what I was going to say is don't forget, we don't send F 15E Strike Eagles into combat by themselves.
They were not a raging single flying around Iran.
They were either in a section, a division, part of a strike package.
And as a fighter pilot, part of the contingency planning part of our brief is search and rescue.
That's a big thing.
Before we walk out to the airplane, we talk about how are we going to get home.
So when they ejected, somebody saw that, somebody in their flight, their flight lead, or if they were the flight lead, their wingman.
They immediately become what we call on-scene commander.
You launch the search and rescue effort.
And there's also secret squirrel stuff that's happening anyway.
As soon as you pull the ejection handle, trust me, satellites know where you are and they know all sorts of stuff.
But one of our aircraft was the immediate on-scene commander.
If I was flying in a section with this Strike Eagle and they went down, I'm done with my mission.
Now all I care about is search and rescue.
So they have their exact position, they are relaying communication.
And as Jason talked about, they launched that SAR effort.
Those folks were sitting there, the Jolly Folks and the Sandys, they were playing cards.
That alarm went off and they sprinted out to the aircraft and they were there as soon as they can.
So we should know soon what happened to the second.
Remember, Megan, you probably saw the videos when the Kuwaiti accidentally shot down three of our Strike Eagles.
One of the guys was in the back of a Kuwaiti SUV and he had a busted mitt.
So, to Jason's point, that air crew might be injured.
If both their hands are injured, they might not be able to.
Pull out their radio, right?
And we kind of train for all this stuff, but when you're in it, you're in it.
And as Jason said, you're going.
With this just hitting, this just hitting.
CNN reporting on the rescue of the one crew member.
Two of the sources said the pilot was alive in U.S. custody and receiving medical treatment.
Thank God.
It was Good Friday.
Yeah.
Amen.
So that's good news.
So alive and receiving medical treatment.
We don't know the exact status, but let's hope that if it were severe injuries, that would have been in the report.
So if that is the pilot, So now we're looking for the WISO, the weapon systems operator, the person in the backseat.
And as we talked about with Ejectant, you're going from this, you're going from zero wind and airspeed, and you're going into hundreds of miles of wind blasts.
If you're ever zipping down the highway and you decide to stick your hand out the window, just multiply that by a factor of four or five.
And as Jason alluded to, if they did get hit by a surface air missile or AAA and they were in some sort of spin, it was a movie, but for example, the F 14 Tomcat.
Goose hitting the canopy.
You might be out of position in order to eject.
We'd love to be in the perfect body position to eject, you know, thighs against the seat, you know, chin 10 degrees up, your chin in.
And they talk you through the perfect ejection position.
But if you're out of control and there's things and there's fire and you're out of position, you're just reaching down to that ejection handle.
So it's either death or pull.
That's your choice at that point.
And clearly they pulled.
So it is an absolutely violent.
Experience.
And most people I know who have ejected, you know, they're a couple inches shorter and it takes a little while to get back on the horse and get back in the airplane.
That's chilling.
Jason, the thought of the IRGC getting its hands on one of our guys is not good.
But they're not dumb.
Like, if they get an American co pilot, they have to know, do they not, that executing him would take this thing to an entirely different level?
And you want to get the support of the American people behind a war that's flagging in its numbers over here?
Do something like that, right?
I mean, how does that, how do you think it plays in the mind of the enemy if they do have our second guy?
First off, Megan, I don't think there's any sort of rational thinking that's going with the Iranian IRGC.
I do, I do, I question some of the reasoning that led up to our strikes.
And don't get me wrong, Iran has been a thorn in our side for 50 years.
I lost guys on my deployment directly related to Iranian EFPs.
July 6, 2007, we had three of our guys killed by this.
We knew that there were Quds force commanders that were operating within Iraq while we were there on the ground.
So I am a huge fan of finally getting rid of this tyrannical regime that has killed off thousands and thousands of their citizens.
The Geneva Convention and the law of armed conflict mean nothing to them.
These are the same people that prior to us going in were killing off their citizens because they were rising up against this regime.
So, what will the Iranians do?
I don't know.
Everything they're doing is calculated on they want to get the American people in the world to decide that this war is too costly to continue to fight.
They're in pure survival mode, is the reality.
So, are they honestly going to make a logical decision if they get their hands on it?
They want this pilot.
I'll tell you that right now because it becomes a massive political play if they can get their hands on them.
And if they feel like it serves their interest to execute him to create more.
More dissent against this war and ending this war, they 100% will do it.
I don't trust the Iranians for anything, which further leads me to my belief that many people disagree with.
What has been done cannot be undone.
President Trump and Secretary Hegseth must finish this.
And the American people I know don't want this.
I mean, I just filled up this morning, it was over $4 a gallon.
But I am willing to sacrifice in the short term so that my grandson doesn't have to fight against the Iranians.
two decades from now.
So many Americans are so quick to sacrifice their future because they're a little uncomfortable right now.
And this is where I think Americans need to step up and recognize the threat that Iran has posed against the U.S. for 50 years.
And make no mistake, if you think they're chanting death to America now in the IRGC, they are so committed now to get their hands on nuclear.
Biological, chemical, because they recognize the only way they can survive is to have these threats against us for the future.
Go ahead, Wiz.
Megan, it's interesting because I'm old enough to remember a desert storm and an A6 guy, he was a bombardier navigator, Jeffrey Zahn, that famous image of his face all black and blue and bloodied.
And you could hear the Iranian captors like, hey, what's, you know, doing all that stuff.
That's why we've kind of moved closer and closer to drone warfare because it's like, hey, let's send a million dollar drone.
It got shut down.
That's not too bad.
They don't want Wiz on CNN or Or Fox or anything like that, all battered and bruised.
It's definitely a risk we take when we send manned aircraft over bad guy country.
But this is all part of it.
Until AI and drones become self aware and ultimately end up killing all of us, in my opinion, we're going to have these types of issues where young men and women out there on the tip of the spear are put in these scenarios.
But again, my hat is off to the combat search and rescue forces of the United States Air Force.
This is all they train for, Megan.
At Kirkland Air Force Base and all around the United States.
This is not that they want this to happen, but it's like kind of being a firefighter, sitting around all day being bored.
You want the alarm to sound, but you actually don't.
But the fact that they were playing cards, the alarm went off, this is what they train for.
It's a well oiled machine.
I can almost guarantee you, Raisin and the secretary and the president, they just have to sit back at this moment and let the tactical folks out on the tip of the spear get it done.
We trust you.
And it's really amazing.
That's where you put your money.
It's like my audience knows I've got real questions about the wisdom of this war, and I completely take everything you said in good faith, Jason.
You have more than your right to your opinion.
You've actually been fighting, unlike me, in these wars.
But no one would ever question the incredible prowess of our troops, the ability, the commitment, the patriotism, the training, all of which is kicking in right now.
And we're all in complete agreement that we want our troops saved, rescued, not a hair on their head.
Harmed, and that if it's a fair fight between that guy who we're still looking for and the Iranians, you take the Americans 10 times out of 10.
We just got to hope for the best here.
And I take comfort knowing that they've trained for it, Wiz.
Everything you just said made me feel better about our chances.
And Megan, I mean, when we train these guys in SEER, Survival Evasion Resistance Escape, I was actually talking to Wiz about this.
I mean, I ran some of our CSAR training when I was an instructor in the SEAL teams.
I work directly with both Navy and Air Force pilots on evasion exercises, meaning teaching them how we evade in what we call denied, non permissive environments, meaning there are enemy forces in the area actively searching for you.
And I truly believe that there are a lot more Iranians on the ground who don't agree with the IRGC.
And I think that, you know, we can pray and hope that they are offering support and that they have the ability to hopefully get these individuals out of there.
There could be similar to what happened with Marcus Latour.
Trell and Lone Survivor, you had friendly Afghans who took him in and protected him.
And I will pray because I think there are, I met so many Iranians recently, dissidents at CPAC, and so many of them who believe in the future of Iran.
And I think there's more of them, just like there's more mainstream Americans than the extremes that we're seeing.
I think there's more of them on the ground that would be willing to protect our pilot and get them out.
Oh my God, that pray God you're right.
And then what we will see in the coming days, no matter what, no matter what happens here, is a battle for the narrative.
You know, the Iranians are going to be pushing out whatever propaganda they can to spin it their way.
You know, America's capable of propagandizing too.
We'll see.
But we're going to have to be careful about information as it comes in because it gets manipulated.
I can see you want to say something, Jason.
Yeah, Megan, I was just going to say, I mean, they can propagandize all they want.
I mean, whether they get our pilot or not changes the narrative drastically.
But if their sole victory is shooting down one aircraft, I think I read this morning, Wiz, what we've flown 11,000, we've hit 11,000 targets, I believe, up to today in four months.
That's unprecedented in warfare history to be able to hit that many targets.
Four weeks.
Exactly, four weeks.
So for them to say we shot down one aircraft, hey, congratulations.
Jason, I'll tell you what.
I mean, the whole thing, it revolves around Wiz, their understanding of how much we, Value life, especially the lives of our men and women in uniform.
So, yeah, you're right.
They know we don't care about the fighter jet a bit, but we care about life way more than the IRGC does.
Go ahead, Wiz.
I'll give you the last word.
I don't want this to come across wrong, but I got to be honest with you.
I'm shocked, or I'm not shocked because I have full faith in our air crews and our equipment and everything like that.
But I got to be honest with you, based on what Jason just said, 12, 13,000 target sets and missions, I am.
Stunned that we haven't lost more aircraft.
And the three other Strike Eagles that we lost were a Kuwaiti, you know, the ghost of Kuwait type of thing.
So, and that was friendly fire.
So I got to be honest with you, Megan, thank God we haven't lost more air crew.
But that is a testament to the young men and women out on the tip of the spear flying this stuff.
I got to be honest with you, Megan, I was a 27 year old idiot from South Jersey flying a Hornet off the Lincoln over Iraq.
I'm like, there's no way they're letting me do this right now.
These are young, you know, I'm old now, but these are young.
Kids, you know, mid 20s, 30s flying these aircraft.
You know, the colonels and the generals aren't manning up too often for these missions.
So, the and the young enlisted folks in the back of those helicopters right now, the PJs, are their kids.
This is just American exceptionalism in action right now.
And, you know, God bless all of them.
May they all come home safe to their families and friends.
Right on, right on.
We're all in agreement on that.
Before you go, I'll just read part of Jason's note.
I have it right outside of my office here, my studio.
Attention to all who enter here.
If you are coming into this room with sorrow to feel sorry for my wounds, go elsewhere.
The wounds I received, I got in a job I love, doing it for people I love, supporting the freedom of a country I deeply love.
I'm incredibly tough and I will make a full recovery.
And look at you now, my friend.
Amen.
Great to see you.
God bless you guys.
Great, Megan.
Can I just say thank you for recognizing me?
And I will just say this.
That is the, all I did was capture the spirit of the American fighting force.
That's what that note represents.
And there is no doubt in my mind, I believe in our forces.
I believe in our leadership.
I believe in those young Americans like Wiz talked about.
I was one of them.
Wiz was one of them.
And I know that we can do whatever needs to be done to make sure the sovereignty of our American citizens is protected for decades and decades to come.
Amen.
Amen.
Let's say a prayer on this Good Friday, Passover as well.
PureTalk Veteran Led Mission00:02:06
And, Pray for the best.
We got the best out there working for it.
You got it.
See you guys soon.
See you, Megan.
Thanks.
Wow.
What a story.
Keep the prayers coming.
Our guy could be a gal, too, I guess.
In today's day and age, I got to get with the times.
We're going to need our prayers and all our good wishes and vibes being sent over there nonstop until we get them.
Okay.
Maureen Callahan is here.
We're going to have some lighter.
You know, when Maureen comes, we do cultural news and it's fun and we need a break from all the heaviness of the news.
This was a pretty heavy story to start with, but of course, obviously, we had to.
But we will turn the page to some.
Cultural Fair when Maureen comes on set right after this quick break.
You've been hearing me talk a lot about PureTalk lately.
PureTalk is veteran led, so helping veterans is their North Star.
They have donated over half a million bucks to America's Warrior Partnership, a fantastic organization that's on the front lines of preventing veteran suicide.
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If you want to give it a shot, dial pound 250 and say Megan Kelly to switch to Pure Talk.
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Body camera footage from Tiger Woods DUI arrest last week has been released.
And among the bizarre moments, he takes a call with President Trump.
I mean, I would submit to the jury he phoned President Trump to try to get his ass out of trouble.
That's my own theory.
Plus, we'll get to the latest on Christy Gnome's husband, Brian.
I've got some exclusive details to report to you.
And wow, they're an eye opener.
Plus, Michelle Obama's mad again.
Guess what she's complaining about?
I'll give you one guess.
Hoda Moments and Body Camera Footage00:10:55
Maureen, what do you think it is?
It's totally Barack.
Yes, it's Barack.
Here to discuss it all, our pal Maureen Callahan, host of The Nerve.
Go to youtube.com and subscribe there and wherever you get your podcasts.
Great to see you, my friend.
Always lovely to see you, Megan.
The Nerve is on fire.
Everyone loves it.
Well, thanks.
You know, the culture has made it very easy for us to prosper.
I love it because a friend of mine, a dear friend of mine, told me last weekend, and I actually didn't even know she was a fan of The Nerve.
We had never discussed it.
But she just out of the blue said, you know what makes Maureen so great?
Among many things, she said she's very sophisticated when it comes to cultural matters.
Like, it's so clear how well read she is, how much exposure she's had to art, to music, to film, to books, like all of it.
And your vocabulary, too.
It's just like you can go low or high, and you can do low through your high vocabulary knowledge or vice versa.
It just works, Maureen.
That's why you have universal appeal.
That is so lovely.
That is such a lovely thing to hear.
That actually makes me feel really, really great when we talk about things, you know, like the people who are sort of in the muck and the mire, like the lizards of the culture.
Yes.
You know, but there's all like today we had on Mark Bowden, who's this body language expert.
Yes.
And he, I was saying to him, like he just expands all of our minds.
He uses phrases that I've never heard, but once he says it, they click.
He'll say things like, there's no body narration happening here.
Oh, stuff like that.
That's true.
You know, we're like, we're all learning, even with these.
Silly stories.
Was he doing Hoda?
What was he doing?
He did Hoda.
He did the lizard mouth.
He did the lizard mouth.
The lizard mouth.
What was up with the Hoda lizard tongue when she interviewed Savannah?
So, Mark found a couple of really interesting pieces in this.
He found evidence of a true smile with she had lines around her eyes.
So, it was a weird.
It was a true smile that she was trying to suppress.
Talking about Savannah's missing, possibly dead mother.
To her mother.
To Savannah, rather, right?
To her face.
And then the moment where she sort of flutters the eyelids, which I described to him as a professional orgasm.
In my mind, she was like, The story.
I can't believe I got the story.
I'm so psyched to be on camera for this.
Yeah.
And the lip flicking, the lip licking, he thought was sort of an attempt to groom oneself on cam.
Like that she was very, very cognizant.
No, that it was sort of like, Am I looking okay?
Like she couldn't stop herself from, like, He thought that was this is how deep Mark goes.
He says it's almost an attempt to, like, when you actually eat food, you get proteins a little bit in the corners of the mouth.
And so the tongue.
Is sort of doing this.
It's like a cleaning grooming.
Whereas I posited to him that I thought of, I immediately thought of the phrase licking one's chops.
Like she was licking her lips over the delicacy that was Savannah's anguish.
Yes, because she was thrilled to be on camera.
She was thrilled to be at the center of the story.
Here, I think it's 14.
We have a montage of some weird Hoda moments throughout this interview.
Let's watch it.
And the ring camera had been yanked off.
And so we were saying, this is, do something.
This is not okay.
Yeah.
Did you guys talk about what possibly could have happened?
Like, what could have happened?
What went down?
And he said, I think she's been kidnapped.
For ransom.
And I said, Yeah.
I'm sorry, sweetie, but yeah, maybe.
But I knew that.
You did?
I'm sorry to my sister and my brother and my kid.
Were you able to do that in that moment?
And I haven't posted one thing or said one thing that the three of us haven't decided together.
It is surreal.
It's how is it possible?
That we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman in the dead of night.
The ransom notes or ransom requests came.
Did you believe those to be real?
There's no tears.
And they're like, you use that term sometimes, vocal fry, like the fake, the fake Maureen, how are you?
It's Jenna Bush Hager is also a prime offender.
She's been trying to squeeze out a lot of tears on the ramp up.
And they've admitted they haven't even been talking to her.
Who are they kidding?
If this is a dear friend about whose situation you're genuinely distraught, you probably would have spoken to her.
In the seven weeks her mom was missing, but they admitted that they haven't.
I don't know what to say to it.
You know, I was listening to you breaking apart the Hoda one on one with Savannah from a journalistic standpoint, all of the malpractice committed in that interview.
Yes.
The lack of a follow up on why did you believe two of those ransom notes were real, the others not.
And because I was really trying to figure out why Savannah would allow Hoda, who was exhibiting nothing but glee at being back in that chair, that was it.
She was happy to be back in that chair.
If it had to be Savannah's tragedy that put her there, You break a few eggs.
Eh, you know?
But I thought about it, and I think it might be that Savannah knew of the meager talent on that bench.
Hoda would be the least likely to either have the capacity or inclination to ask follow ups.
That's very true.
Because I was told by somebody who was well known in the producing staff there that the only, all Hoda ever does is ask the questions that are given to her, no follow ups.
She doesn't do the real journalism thing.
That's why they like her over there, the producing staff, because she'll just ask whatever questions are put in front of her.
And I'm sure they all say Savannah is the boss.
And so I'm sure they went over all of this in advance and she accepted, like, these are the questions that I'll be asked.
A real journalist wouldn't accept that.
A real journalist would say, I'm going to ask my own questions.
I've told the story before, but when I was there, I came from Fox and Cable News, where you don't, producers don't do anything like that for you.
You are on your own out there.
They'll give you elements, they'll talk about editorial, but they certainly don't give you questions.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
And I mean, cable news anchors, I think, are much more facile at real live interviews and discussions because they don't have somebody writing questions for them.
And they were shocked at NBC when I went there and I wanted to ask my own questions to the point where one person who had come from Al Jazeera reported me to HR because I wouldn't ask her questions.
And by the way, it was on a Supreme Court story.
This woman wasn't, she didn't work the high court.
She wasn't a lawyer.
It was like, thank you for trying, but I don't need your questions.
I know how to ask questions about a legal story, madam.
But that's how unused to an anchor with free will they are.
So I think you're probably right.
She knew, Savannah knew that, you know, she could make sure that.
Hoda wouldn't go off the script, wouldn't ask anything follow up in the moment, like, yeah, why did you believe the ransom notes?
And also, if you believed them, why didn't you pay?
Yes.
Right?
Like, that was the biggest one that went unasked.
But the biggest thing, and even just watching that montage, is why did you continue to interject yourself into Savannah's moment with the noises, the facial expressions, the tongue, the fake tears?
It was a narcissistic act.
Episode for Hoda Kapi.
I actually like not much can shock me, but that shocked me.
Hoda's demeanor, like this.
If there's ever a time when it is not about you, I understand this is difficult for the players on the Today Show, but the guttural noises.
And I was even speaking with Mark about the way, even if you look at the framing of that interview, Hoda's like leaning herself into the frame.
She just keeps, I'm getting into this story.
I will be part of this story.
And it's sort of, I think you and I were also talking about this, the way in which Hoda.
Seems really, it really matters to her that the rest of America knows that she and Savannah are friends.
Yeah.
We know they're not.
They're not.
We know Savannah can't stand her.
But, you know, and this is the thing you're not supposed to say.
What is Savannah doing?
What is she doing with this?
It was too soon.
Not only was it too soon, but she is playing part of this game, right?
It's going to be Hoda.
Give me the questions.
I know what we're going to say.
I can't stand this woman.
She wants to be friends with me.
I'm going to abide this because I need to clear the runway for my return.
For my return, she has to participate in the theater.
And what was that like end of the interview, that 10 minutes at the end?
It was sort of like, it felt like, Yeah, now I have to come back.
I'm like, like, habituating the rest of us.
It shouldn't matter really what we think.
It's her decision.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The Hoda copy weirdness in her physicality translated into weirdness in her comments and her sounds and even her questions.
There was one question Tell us about your mommy.
Oh, I hate that.
All right.
Now, to me, it's always a little jarring when an adult person is referring to their parents as mommy and daddy, but I realize people do that.
I'm not one of them, but I realize some people do that.
But that is just for Savannah to say.
Like, you don't then, as the interviewer, adopt that terminology like you are interviewing a three year old, right?
Like, tell us about your mom.
That would be okay.
My skin was crawling with the Hoda because it was once again evidence of her over familiarity, right?
For effect.
Yes, the over familiarity.
It's Meghan Markle adjacent.
You know, we are all highly attuned to this stuff, to artifice, to, um, Forced intimacy.
Yes.
And it just makes us uncomfortable for many, many reasons.
I felt watching that interview was really strange.
I felt like this is stuff I shouldn't be seeing.
Yep.
But they're forcing it.
They're putting it on camera.
So why not?
Like, I don't.
No, no, we are totally within our rights to be discussing it.
They put it out there.
I agree completely.
But I'm just saying, as a viewer, you know, watching Savannah, rarely do we see emotion that raw in the public domain.
Everybody's sort of, with the era of social media now, we're all habituated to being on camera.
We all live in a world where we might get caught, and I'm sure we'll talk about someone who was just caught on cam.
Meghan Markle Adjacent Artifice00:02:22
Yeah.
You know, yeah.
But, you know, I don't, I thought it was a very interesting decision by NBC and Savannah to come back this soon because you're watching a woman who is a broadcast professional, who is used to speaking to millions of people on a daily basis, and she's having trouble getting a sentence out because she's so emotional.
It's like, it depends on the person.
Seven weeks might not be too soon for some, but clearly for Savannah, It appears to be.
She can't even make it through an interview pre taped without, you know, crying nonstop.
It doesn't seem like it was time yet.
Maybe she really wants to get back on the air.
I think if I were running NBC, I'd say take another three months and then we'll do it.
You know, when you're back to like yourself, we know you want to, but what's best for us and you, we think, is to wait a little bit.
All right, got to take a quick break.
We're back with Maureen.
She's here for the rest of the show.
We love our days with Maureen in studio.
Stand by.
Be right back.
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No missed calls, no missed connections.
Maureen Callahan, host of The Nerve, is back with me.
Go and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and go to youtube.com if you want to get all the nerve, including the weekend mini nerve, which I wake up to on Saturday mornings and really enjoy.
DHS Program and Pure Desire00:10:54
Yes.
I love that.
I save most of my nerves for the weekend because during the week, I'm all hard news and then I have it all waiting for me.
And I love that.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Such a compliment.
No, truly, it's like it's a getaway and it really is like culturally enriching because I do learn things.
You always have like a good book recommendation or film recommendation.
But then it also appeals to our.
Natural caddy side.
Like you say at the beginning of some shows, it's not for everyone, but those for whom it is, they get it.
It really is.
Troublemakers, unite.
It's cathartic.
Okay.
Let's talk about Christy Gnome and Brian Gnome.
Apparently, the Washington Post is upset that the Daily Mail ran the story and used what, more than one photo of him?
Suddenly, the Washington Post has a heart.
I don't know why.
I have.
Oh my God.
I have a lot of thoughts on this, Maureen.
There are rumors now and some reporting even that the reason this came out, I've heard that it was like bitter women in the big breasted world who were blackmailing him for money, who weren't getting paid so that they came out with it.
But I've also read and heard a suspected theory that it was Christy Nome who leaked it to engender sympathy for her because she took such a beat in getting fired, in part because of the Corey Lewandowski affair, allegedly, reportedly.
And she wanted people to know, hello, this is what I'm dealing with.
And it did immediately shift the narrative on her.
It was like, whoa, I understand everything.
So, what would you guess?
I love that theory.
It's my favorite theory.
And what makes me think there's some truth to it is that Christy Noam, who we all know can handle herself, we all know, and was the head of DHS and being a tough woman in front of gang members and gauges, whatever, with her bulletproof vest on.
It's like 80 pounds of lashes and hair extensions.
Don't F with me.
It's shocked and is devastated and is asking for prayers.
That boilerplate political hack statement.
Makes me think she knew all along.
She was waiting for her moment.
I just, and I don't, like, you can't be smart and stupid at the same time, right?
You can't be somebody at this high, high, high level of government and not realize that your husband's up to this for years and years and years and years.
Yes, especially now we hear, okay, so there's a follow up report in the Daily Mail, but there's been similar reporting in the New York Post and elsewhere, suggesting that it was an open secret within the White House, okay?
And I have to say, They don't name Trump as knowing, but there's no way he didn't.
If it was in the White House, he knew.
Trump loves gossip.
Yes, I was going to say that.
Don't they say Trump is like the biggest gossip of the whole time?
Totally.
He loves gossip.
I mean, to his credit, he wouldn't run around like betraying the secret to like the public on Christy Noam.
And it's like, but it is a problem because she was blackmailable.
He was blackmailable.
He was living with the DHS chief and had a massive secret.
Like, what would stop somebody?
And there's no, he was so cavalier and reckless with his name and his face and he didn't hide his identity hardly at all that I'm sure like the Chinese knew.
I'm sure they're trying to hack her emails anyway.
Like his was a cinch.
What's to stop them from going to him saying, you will go copy the latest DHS file on your wife's desk, or this will be on the cover of the New York Times, this picture we just showed?
So it is, it does matter.
But anyway, the White House allegedly knew about it, that it was an open secret.
The Mail reporting that here's one quote I've heard people say Brian dresses up in women's clothes, but I didn't imagine something this reckless.
Another, I've been hearing he was a cross dresser since last year.
And that she was telling people about it.
We assume to justify her affair, said a senior DHS official.
They write, I can, one senior DHS official says, I can vouch for the blackmail claim.
This would have been a disqualification for national security eligibility for anyone else whose spouse was hiding this.
Then another inside the White House, they said multiple actually, told the outlet that they openly speculated long before this broke that Brian was either gay or had a Cuck, that's C U C K, people.
Fetish.
Cuck, fetish.
We looked up cuck fetish.
Boy, you got to be really careful on that on Wikipedia.
A cuck fetish is a sexual interest where a person, typically a husband, the cuckold, is aroused by their romantic partner.
My team is laughing at me in my ear.
Often called a hot wife, having sex with a third party often involves elements of humiliation, jealousy, and power dynamics.
So he, in this scenario, they thought, Wanted to be humiliated, wanted to feel jealousy, wanted to feel powerless, and that would make him the cuckold.
I don't think that's what this is.
It seems like because one of the text messages that came out between Brian and one of the big breasted ladies was something like, I can't leave or something.
And it seemed more to me like it was a marriage of like, okay, she's in politics, she was in the house, she was governor of South Dakota, now she's DHS chief, she needs somebody on her arm.
The husband she married when they were just young people.
So he had kind of struck the deal and she was going to be able to screw around with Corey or whomever.
And he was going to be able to do this.
And now she's got to act shocked, right?
I think there are probably multiple layers.
I think this is psychologically so dense and interesting because the cuck theory was going around when he sat behind her at the Senate hearing.
Yes, that was bizarre.
And everyone was like, everyone knows about the Corey affair.
Like this is common, non secret.
They deny it for the record.
They deny it for the record.
What is he doing there?
And there were even reports from his family members saying, We hope that maybe now he leaves, right?
Maybe now he leaves.
See this.
So, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
And if I may invoke one, Carlos Danger, Anthony Wiener, also known as a sex scandal for the ages, selfies involved, body parts involved, a wife who was a power player at a level he was never going to reach.
He torpedoed his chances multiple times.
The documentary Wiener is like, have you seen that?
Yes, yes, it was amazing.
Yeah.
And he's like running for mayor and he's gaining real traction.
And then the The Sydney Leathers scandal erupts.
Wow.
Remember Sydney Leathers?
That's the one that really brought him down, right?
That was the one he texted me.
He's pitching him through the McDonald's.
Okay.
That's all coming back to me.
But there's, I feel like with a guy like this, is he, why can't he leave?
Why can't he leave?
If his wife is finding her contentment elsewhere.
Yep.
And he is finding his, if he is living his best life in the bimbofication scene.
In his little leggings.
Yeah.
Why can't they split?
You know, divorce shocks no one these days.
I don't know.
I don't know.
And I have to say, like, What's a legit question?
What's more disturbing to you, the enormous fake balloon breasts that he wears or the teeny tiny hot pink biker shorts wearing?
Well, you know, they always say it's one or the other.
So you do, you show some chest or you show some legs.
Or it's not classy.
Or both.
It's not classy, Brian.
All right.
Well, I can report that he was, he texted.
I have been reliably told by a source and sent the text messages, which my source, who I believe, Has provided to me that he attempted a 12 step program for sex rehab.
That it was a place called Pure Desire, Pure Desire, and that it incorporates the 12 steps he wrote.
And we looked that up to see if that was a known rehab in South Dakota.
And we found that it's a like a ministry, 12 step ministry or Pure Desire ministry.
Okay, so we have a call in to see.
I mean, they're not going to confirm if somebody was in their program, but this is what my source who says he reached out to her because of her big breasts and he wanted in and she wasn't, she didn't let it happen.
But she and he struck up a text relationship and he confessed to her that this is in January of 2026.
He wrote, I just need to know, blah, blah, blah.
He says, it's a men's group that he's in.
Then he asks her, Did you try anything on?
He's back to wanting to see her.
She says, No.
And then she says, What type of men's group?
He says, Recovery group.
She says, Recovery for what?
He says, Addiction.
Five of us.
What type of 12 step program?
She asks.
It's not really 12 steps, he says.
She says, So what time just to recover everyone?
Oh, they're still talking about her outfit.
Okay.
Then he says, I'm a work in progress.
She says, What is your recovery group for?
She says, All of us are a work in progress.
And then he says, I'm entering a therapy program, much needed and much overdue, 40 days.
This is January 12th, 2026.
40 days.
I appreciate the conversations we had and getting to know you better.
You seem like a great person.
I hope you get what you want out of it.
Then he writes, You're pretty great.
I really enjoyed talking to you.
Enjoy talking to you too.
So, which treatment plan are you going to go with?
And he says, It's called Pure Desire, it incorporates the 12 steps.
And then this person believes he left the program early, Maureen.
And did not complete the 40 days nor the 12 steps.
Maybe he got through the first three.
I don't know.
But to me, I have to say, he went through something and he didn't do it after being caught.
So it seems like he was genuinely wrestling with his addiction, fetish, or whatever.
I don't know.
Like if you do that behind the scenes before you're caught, clearly the guy does have a problem, very clearly.
Okay, I'm gonna.
I mean this sincerely.
Does he?
I was listening to you the other day.
You were talking about an interview you had done very early on in this podcast.
Deborah Seau.
Which was fascinating, where you said, she said these fetishes are almost ingrained, like they come out of the womb almost.
Well, I think something happens to you when you're very, very young that creates it.
Okay.
Deviant Fetishes and Gratification00:06:49
So, but something is happening to many people.
This is a fetish I'd never heard of before.
The enormous breasts.
But like men wanting the enormous breasts and like.
I'm not quite sure where the sexual kink is, but like it's clear that my supposition, just mine, that's the only way he's finding sexual gratification.
It's not what we would consider conventional sex, right?
Is it an addiction?
If it's harmless, if he's not hurting anybody else, if this is like through screens, if it's not manifesting in other ways?
It hurt me.
I did not want to see those pictures.
When I saw those, Pictures, I was like, this cannot be real.
My eyes, like, I can't.
To me, it was like, I was kind of okay with it when, like, if, like, he's just looking at a large breasted woman, but that stuff of him, there's something very deviant.
I don't know.
Maybe all fetishes are deviant, but I don't think so.
Like, some people, like, Dom sub, that doesn't seem totally deviant to me.
But, like, the man putting enormous fake breasts and the teeny tiny Biker shorts Maureen, look at him with his fake kissy face.
That does seem very, very freaking weird.
It's weird to be sure.
It's weird, but hey, he has a community of like minded souls.
He's getting it out.
Oh, he's getting it out.
All right.
He's getting it out.
Is it weird?
So when I go to see a Quentin Tarantino movie, I, as a woman, am always made very uncomfortable because he forces his foot fetish on all of us.
He is a major foot fetish.
He does.
Yes.
And one of the things he makes his actresses do.
So, the last big film he did, I think, was Once Upon a Time in America with Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio.
Margaret Robbie, sorry, Margot Robbie, the lead, playing Sharon Tate.
He has a scene in the film, it doesn't need to exist at all, where she's going to the movies to see herself.
And she's sitting in the seat in the theater and she props up her dirty, bare feet.
Dirty.
We see the soles of her feet, they're dirty.
And I look at that scene, which goes on for quite some time, and I think this is for.
Quentin Tarantino's personal gratification.
Ew.
But he's also getting a gratification out of making the rest of us paying moviegoers watch this, those of us who know what he's up to.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
This guy.
I just feel like I don't think addiction treatment would work with him because I don't know that it would classify per se as an addiction.
It's a deviance, perhaps.
It's a predilection.
It's a compulsion, even, but he's not breaking any laws.
How do you think, like, I have to tell you, I can think of at least three couples that we've known over the years, you know, I'm talking two plus decades, where we have found out that, and it's always the husband, had some very strange sexual fetish.
We didn't know about it.
We hung out with friends and then whatever, they got a divorce or he was caught doing something, you know, like it comes out.
And I have been shocked because in each of the cases, kind of like the Brian Gnome case, they've seemingly been normal guys.
Like you wouldn't have known that they're into something very weird, very weird, in my humble opinion.
Yes.
And so I do wonder, like, how many are there?
And like, how many people that you know right now have like very abnormal, that's my word.
Fetishes or kinks that like are right behind the closed door, right?
Like they're at the church meeting all day and then in the night they look like Brian Gnome.
And also at some point, I bet he broke that to Christy.
I bet he was like, What would you think about putting the big balloons down?
Oh, one, right?
100%.
Yes.
Like soften you up.
You know, like we've all sort of, I don't know about you, I won't speak for you.
I've certainly been in situations where I thought they're kind of testing the waters, right?
Are you, you know, like, and you recognize it sometimes in the immediate or you don't, you know, but I don't believe for a second that this came as a complete and utter shock to look.
Where's the guy hiding all of this gear?
Yeah.
It's a lot.
His little outfits.
Like the hot pink lycra.
And the money.
Where's the money going?
Like, you're telling me they don't sit down with their accountant every year at tax time?
It was thousands of dollars.
And I'm working to confirm this piece of it, but.
There's an allegation that's been made that he was paying for even surgeries.
Again, I'm working to track that down, take it with a grain of salt, but I've definitely been told that he was paying for certain surgeries for some of these folks.
And so, like, there would be a record.
They were not rich.
You know, she did inherit her dad's ranch.
I don't know how much money that entailed for her, but I think she's got siblings too.
But she was a congressman and then she was governor and then she was a US senator.
So, like, you're making an okay living, but you're not, it's not so much you wouldn't notice somebody like big surgery payments going out the door.
And he was in insurance, is in insurance.
So, I don't like, I just wonder because the first, there had to be a first time where he was like, you know, no, it'd be great if you had like triple J's.
Like, wouldn't that be hot?
You think that would help you win your congressional seat next time around?
It's a no.
And then he looked elsewhere.
I think we're going to be hearing a lot from Brian Gnome.
You do?
I do.
I think we're going to, I think he's open to a one on one.
With Hoda?
Perhaps with you.
He could totally come on here.
I would be open minded to talking to him.
Listen, you know, Oprah's going to go for this like a heat seeking missile.
But she's so irrelevant now.
Who would sit with Oprah?
You know, a lot of people still do weirdly.
But who would be good for this?
Because he, you know, when the New York Times approached him, did you see this?
What?
A reporter for the New York Times approached him outside of his house and he said, Oh, yeah.
I'm not ready to sit.
Speak yet.
But prayers, he said something?
He said something like, but I appreciate your heart.
Yes.
Okay.
Anyone who's like a reporter who's going to door knock you at this moment, it's pretty calloused to their heart.
I'm just going to say.
But so, like, he's like, he seems to have this.
I think, like, I think, like Anthony Weiner, part of the fetish is like humiliation.
I like it.
Oh.
This is like, oh, we're going to luxuriously.
Oh, so he's going to be on Nancy Grace soon, is what you're telling me.
I think so.
I think so.
She's better than anyone at that.
I think he might get a book deal.
You know, I don't know.
I think a documentary.
Sonny Williams Tennis Doping Scandal00:15:27
I'm not going to lie.
If he gets a book deal and writes a book, we'll cover it.
Of course.
Yeah, we will.
I mean, and I would happily speak with Brian Gnome and I would be respectful of him, unless he didn't want that, in which case I'd shame and embarrass him.
No, just get out of this thing.
I don't know.
And I already know far too much about them.
I think it's a good thing that she's stepped down from her role.
All right, let's talk about Tiger.
Because I kind of love it when we have different takes on it.
But I agreed with your take too.
But I looked at it and I was like, this is so sad.
I was like, this is somebody who was kind of abused in a way by his dad, who like didn't let him be a little boy, just was building a future golf star.
And I'm sure the dad thought he was doing the right thing.
And of course, Tiger's a billionaire.
He's world famous.
Okay, great.
You won.
You did it.
But he's unhappy.
He's so miserable.
He's so fucking miserable and fucked up and could have killed how many Americans at this point?
And It's because I think he didn't have real love.
That's not real love.
Right.
That's like, run, pony, run.
Right.
And he didn't have a childhood.
You know, he didn't goof around at the mall or the movies.
Like, he's 50, so I know when he grew up.
That's what you did.
You goofed around at the mall and the movies and you built forts and rode your bike and sat by the stream by yourself.
Right.
Like, you had downtime, is what I'm saying.
Yes.
None of that happened.
So he wasn't equipped.
He didn't build any of the life skills.
And now he's had all these accidents, not to mention sports challenges that have caused him to be in physical pain.
And even when he had that catastrophic crash in 2021, almost had his leg amputated.
How many surgeries did he have?
Like a dozen.
And then right back out there.
He went on to win, well, no, he won the Masters in 2019, but he still got back out there in the tournaments.
And it's like, go, racehorse, go.
So it's like, of course, he's in pain.
It's just like, this is a shattered human being.
I don't care what the Bank book says, but I understand the other point, which is stop fucking endangering the children of America, you selfish, spoiled gazillionaire or any one of us.
I mean, he could smash into parents of young children and kill them and leave them orphaned.
You know, listening to you talk about this, and I was listening to you the other day, and I understand where you're coming from 100%.
But as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, there's a corollary that we've got people not that much younger than Tiger, and that's the Williams sisters.
Their father did the same exact thing.
It's true.
Richard Williams put those girls on the tennis court when they were very young and made it his mission to make them tennis pros and stars.
And they say he married their mother for that same reason.
She's very tall and she's strong.
Are you serious?
That's what they say.
I didn't know that.
Unconfirmed.
Whoa.
Yeah.
But the other corollary with the two is that they both were, and I think this is part of the reason they feel a little bit untouchable and reasons to make excuses for.
They both broke barriers, race barriers, in sports that were traditionally exclusively white.
Tiger and the Williams.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
They both joined sports that were dominated by whites.
But the Williams sisters don't deal with whatever issues they may have over a lost childhood by repeatedly getting behind the wheel off their faces.
They just yell at the little umpire, which is, that's fine.
Much, much healthier.
Keep it on the court.
Keep it on the court.
Keep it on the golf course.
I just like.
And by the way, that's just Serena.
Venus was never.
Yeah, Venus is a much, Cooler cat than that.
Also, I will say the girls had each other, which is good.
That's true.
Although you could look at it this way as well how difficult it must be to be siblings growing up in this unique ecosystem.
And one of them is clearly just going to be like she's going to be in the stratosphere.
You're great.
You're great.
But in the history books, it's her name first.
We will find out later.
She was doping.
I'm convinced.
Serena.
Oh, I think they all are.
Doug wrote a book before he turned to nonfiction, he wrote a couple of novels.
And one of them is called Trophy Son.
And it's about this like, how basically that father that you just described.
And he did a lot of research in the tennis world, which we love because we're a tennis family.
He plays, I don't play anybody, but he plays, my kids play.
And, um, He spoke to a very well known tennis player who said, like, everybody's doping.
And if you don't dope, you can't make it.
You're kind of like, you have to choose to leave.
It makes sense because you see these players come back out on the court after sustain.
Like Roger Federer, three knee surgeries, aging, aging champion.
But you know, one knee surgery is enough if you're not doping.
It's taken you out.
I'm sorry, it is.
But I think what just drove me nuts about Serena is everybody was pretending that the kind of musculature, she had on the court, which was a man's musculature.
I'm sorry.
Yep.
Women, you can work out all day long.
You're not developing muscles like that.
You know, so, okay.
But that's- She denies it.
Of course she denies it.
She's happy to be a spokesperson for her GLP-1.
Yes.
But we're not doping.
We never dope.
But anyway, yeah, the tiger thing, you know, so I was listening to Dave Portnoy, who has been catching some crap in the culture, but I liked what he had to say.
What did he say?
He said, I don't know anybody who's ever rolled a car.
No, me neither.
Let alone twice.
Like, this guy's just rolling cars all like he's a menace.
If this had been you, me, we'd be getting killed.
Our licenses would be permanently revoked.
And there'd be no sympathy.
Like, our core fans would have our backs, but God bless you all.
Thank you.
But the society, the way it's written up, would have been completely excoriating.
The idea that, and I don't like what he's doing, he's doing what he did 16 years ago.
Except that we haven't seen the presser yet.
But remember 16 years ago, it was like the mistresses, the drugs, the, you know, and he had a whole presser.
I'm so sorry.
I've got a lot of problems.
I didn't have a childhood.
I got to, you know, I got to make things right.
Now he's off in another country.
He petitioned the judge, can I leave the country?
The only way I'm going to get help, really good drug help, is in another country.
Okay.
Which made me think of Matthew Perry's memoir in which he wrote, which was published not long before he died of his addictions.
He wrote that, um, He loved going outside of the United States.
Know why?
Easier to get drugs.
Oh, makes sense.
And by the way, Charlie Sheen went to American rehabs and eventually one took.
In fact, I know Charlie, but now and I love him, but other friends of ours were in rehab with him and had the most amazing stories about Charlie Sheen on one of the times it didn't take.
Amazing.
But anyway, my point is.
Charlie Sheen's is a household name too.
And this is at the height of his fame.
He went to an American rehab.
Tiger Woods can go to an American rehab.
And part of the whole thing, as I understand it, is like humbling yourself and saying, Yes, I'm Tiger Woods and I'm an alcoholic or I'm a drug addict.
Like that, the whole thing is to be like, I'm just like you.
I'm no better than any of you.
And I think the other people there struggling are very quick to accept that.
You know, like they're not fucking worried about you.
They're worried about the life they just blew up that landed them in rehab.
You know who famously talked about this way before this became like a culturally.
Commonplace thing to do was Elizabeth Taylor, who checked herself into Betty Ford, had many issues with addiction throughout her life.
And she came out of Betty Ford and she said, Do you know what helped fix me?
They didn't treat me like a movie star.
I had to clean the toilets just like everybody else.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me.
Tiger didn't kick things off on a good note when we now know, thanks to TMZ, which got the body cam from the officer, the footage, he called President Trump.
Like as soon as he Rolled the car and got out of it, and the cops were there.
He called the president, which is a douche move, I think.
It's very clear he called to try to get out of this somehow.
I mean, it's my supposition, but why the hell?
There's a statement where he later said to the cops, and we're going to play the body cam, but he later says to the cops on scene, he was very apologetic for what he did last night.
The night before, Trump had been on the five on Fox News, and it said, I don't think Tiger's going to play the Masters this year.
So he Apparently, out of the confidence that he received from Tiger.
And keep in mind, he knows Tiger from the golf course, they're friends, and also Trump's now former daughter in law is dating him, Vanessa Trump, Don Jr.'s ex.
So it sounds like Trump said something he wasn't at liberty to say and had apologized to Tiger in that phone call.
So I suppose there's a chance that Trump called Tiger to apologize just in a few seconds after the rollover.
But I'm going to go with Tiger called him and asked for some help because he knew this was going to be a PR disaster and potentially a legal one.
Both were correct.
And here's the body cam footage showing what the cops heard.
Get you to hang out down here with us, please.
Thank you so much.
All right.
You got it.
All right.
Thank you.
Bye.
I just keep you down here with us, please.
Yeah, I was just talking to the president.
Try to get away from the phone.
Oh, yeah.
He was very apologetic for what he did last night.
Yeah, so that was his manager with that exchange about very apologetic for what he did last night.
There's no question he called him to try to get himself out of it.
And the whole thing has got privilege written all over it, Maureen.
You know, you and I rolling a vehicle, like, Eyes, pupils dilated.
Keeping our sunglasses on.
You think the cops would allow us to keep our sunglasses on?
Hell no.
Showing up and walk away?
And just stroll all over that.
That's a crime scene.
What I love about that is it shows.
So I think he was sure to try to get the president on the phone so that he could be on the phone, if he really was, with the president at the very moment when the cops were rolling up.
The way Meghan Markle gets down on the floor and cries and waits for Harry to come home and catch her spontaneously on the floor crying.
So he's like, he's like, yeah, just got off.
Now, what's interesting there is the cop doesn't say, who are you talking to?
No.
There's no provoking question.
He volunteers, oh, hey, I was just on the phone with the president.
Right, as one does.
It's like when the cop pulled Justin Timberlake over in Sag Harbor two summers ago and he said, hey, what are you doing?
And JT goes, I'm on a world tour.
Oh, God.
You know, right.
But they want, and he should have said, bringing sexy back.
Oh, it's hard to explain what I'm doing to the culture, Mr. Policeman.
I was just speaking to my wife, Jessica Beale, but I'll get right back with you, officer.
Here's the other thing.
He, I was on the nerve this morning, I was talking about the way the View was discussing this, and Sonny Hostin was saying these things about he's in pain.
He's had all these surgeries.
By the way, he's had multiple surgeries on that leg he almost lost because of a crash.
He caused speeding, going 90 miles per hour in a 45 mile per hour lane in like a very twisty road, you know?
So it's like.
And by the way, they didn't give him a test then, like a breathalyzer or a urine test, because they thought it was like near death.
They thought it would be disrespectful.
But I mean, what are the odds that he was not on something for that one, too?
What are the odds?
I mean, talk about rehab and somebody who really needs rehab.
But Sonny Hostin was saying, oh, you know, it's this, it's that.
She had a million excuses for him.
I love to call Sonny America's preeminent race hustler.
Yeah.
So let's say this was a white athlete who had flipped his car not once but twice, had been collared at least four times for driving under the influence.
Now, that's what we know of.
This is a habit for this guy.
That's true.
What other favors did he call in on other potential accidents?
Right, exactly.
Or had covered up or whatever he's donating to the local PDE.
So they look the other way.
If this had been a white athlete with this many passes, Sonny would be screaming white privilege all day.
Day long.
That's very true.
That is 100% true.
And meanwhile, she's bitching about how her son, who was training for a marathon, was running in her very ritzy neighborhood.
And she felt the need to go down to the police station to say, he's running.
He's mine.
He's mine.
Don't you bother him.
Like it's just a bunch of racist cops sitting in her Tony neighborhood waiting to track down the black kids who are running.
I mean, she's a loon, but you're right.
She is a race hustler.
She wasn't always like this.
Here's more.
It's a video.
He's there in the back of the squad car and he's hiccuping and closing his eyes like he's napping.
Here's Tiger.
All right, you can see he can barely look, he's hiccuping.
This is so weird, Maureen.
I mean, he looks so out of it.
He looks like he's nodding off.
Yeah, he is.
Like, obviously, he is severely impaired and got behind the wheel of a car like this.
The cops, they're no idiots.
Like, they knew he was impaired, even though he didn't fail the breathalyzer.
They knew it was an alcohol and his, you know, walking test was a nightmare.
And then here's a picture of him with the blanket over his head in the squad car.
And he looks like he is like, In Mecca?
I know.
What is this?
What is this for the listening audience?
You just got to tune into the show to look at it.
It's an hour and 30 minutes into the broadcast, just about.
And he's got, like, it looks like a Mother Teresa veil over the top of his head or, like, you know, head covering.
And he's looking up to the heavens and he's got his two hands almost in the prayerful position.
I don't, it's something very eerie about that shot.
It's almost one of like religious supplication slash mortification.
I truly believe if Andy Warhol were still with us, this would be a triptych for the ages, you know, or one of those four panel things he did.
Yeah.
This is the earlier though, the earlier footage we were looking at of him like nodding off and hiccuping, you know, what he was said he was on, he told the cops when they pulled those two pills out of his pocket, oh, those are narcos, which to me sounds like street lingo.
Oh, wait, we have that here.
Let's watch SOT six.
Look down on my phone and all of a sudden boom I'm gonna just take a lifting and go in and just like take is this is this comfortable for you?
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Yeah, I don't feel anything out of the ass We're gonna have our medicum and check you out, all right Follow my finger to the left and right, testing his hickory.
Robert Downey Jr Arrested00:02:55
He's doing some fist thing.
Okay, Karen, place your hands behind your back.
Place them behind your back.
Getting arrested now.
So at this time, I do believe your normal faculties are impaired, okay, and you're under that unknown substance, okay?
So at this time, you're under arrest for DUI.
Yes, sir.
You got a bag?
Yeah, it's me.
Can you just take them?
Yeah, that's a narco.
It's a narco?
Yep.
There are the pills.
Right out of his pocket.
You were saying about narco.
It's a narco, he says.
So he's, it seems just my opinion that he's addicted to opiates.
That's a fancy way of saying heroin.
Your doctor gave you some heroin in pill form.
I think Tiger Woods, he was nodding off in the back of that patrol car.
I think we should start speaking about him in the appropriate parlance.
Tiger Woods is a junkie.
He may be one of golf's greatest players ever, if not the greatest.
He's also a junkie.
And, um, I think the culture really needs to begin and the media needs to begin discussing this like the public emergency and menace it is.
He should not be given back his license.
Absolutely not.
And he should be facing prison time.
Yeah.
So we did on, I really loved doing this segment, this Tiger segment we did.
I ended it with, do you remember when Robert Downey Jr. was going crazy in the 90s?
Yeah.
And he, the final straw was he was, a stranger came home and found Robert Downey Jr. Passed out in their child's bedroom.
Oh, God.
On drugs.
This was a normal event.
A random person went to their own home and he was in their child's bedroom.
Passed out.
Oh, my gosh.
On drugs.
And this guy had been given pass after pass because he was Robert Downey Jr. and he was a rich white movie star.
And sure, he had a drug problem, but who was he hurting?
At his sentence, which was filmed in court and televised, the judge said, I'm out of reasons.
You are a threat to the rest of us.
I'm going to make this very unpleasant for you.
You're going to prison.
And then he's Robert Downey Jr. is seen visibly smirking and laughing while he's being led away in handcuffs.
Smash cut to a few months later, he's doing an interview from behind bars.
And he says, You know, when you get here and you see razor wire and armed guards, it really sinks in that you have been separated and removed from society because society needs protection from you.
Yeah.
And it's not an ego bath and it's not supposed to be one.
And that's what Tiger Woods needs.
I'm sorry.
That's what he needs.
He does.
He needs some serious protection.
Tough love right now.
That story reminded me of something not exactly on point, but somewhat related.
When our kids were really young, we had a nanny, she was not living.
Oh, it wasn't our nanny.
Our nanny was like on vacation or something.
And it was like a part time babysitter who would come sometimes to like sub.
Nanny Relief Bills Babysitter Chaos00:02:28
She was a younger gal.
She was like 22.
And she showed up late that day.
And I remember being like, I had to go to work.
And I was like, where is she?
She showed up late, which was a little weird.
She wasn't the most responsible person.
And then I couldn't find her.
Like a half an hour into it, I'm like, where'd she go?
I got to go.
I got to like tell her what's going on today, the plans.
Couldn't find her anywhere.
I found her in Yates's, that's our oldest, in his bed.
Under the sheets asleep.
I'm like, oh my God.
What are you doing in my child's bed under his?
He wasn't there.
I'm like, under his sheets.
She's like, oh, I feel terrible.
I'm like, all the more reason why you shouldn't be in my child's bed with your head on his pillow.
We would have stripped that bed.
We did.
I mean, your part time babysitter clearly had a night before showing up.
It was crazy.
We did.
We're like, You need to go home.
You're good.
We're good.
We got this.
But it was a shocking sight.
That is shocking.
That is shocking.
Hello.
Hello, ma'am.
All right.
Wait, we'll take a quick break.
Is that?
Yeah, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back.
Don't go away.
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Break up with pain and get back to what matters.
Hey, think that you can see the bills and the bills.
and then you can play it in the phone.
And even if you know that you don't want to do it, then you can stretch out your hands.
And it's just then you need to stop yourself and take hands back on the track.
And if you get it, you need to make a plan.
Then it's a bit easier.
And now it's the only thing you need to do.
Aisha Blake Breastfeeding Mediation Drama00:15:22
Hilsen, Statens Veivesen.
Have you free in the evening?
We have open just as usual.
On TuxForce Shopping Center you get more of the money for the money.
Do a billy trade combined with a wonderful evening evening.
TuxForce Shopping Center ditt närmaste gränshandelscenter.
Endast en timme från Oslo.
Vi ses på TuxForce Shopping Center.
are back now with Maureen Callahan and a major win for Justin Baldoni, just in time for their trial.
His and Blake Lively's coming up in May.
The judge threw out her sexual harassment claims against him.
He kept her retaliation claim and another claim, but.
The main claim that he sexually harassed her is out because she was basing it on an agreement that he never actually signed, and no one from his company actually signed.
And it took all this litigation and 140 page opinion for the judge to say that.
And this is just a harbinger of things to come, Maureen, because she's got more humiliation waiting for her if they actually do go to court on this thing.
They had a big mediation, they got nowhere.
They hate each other so much now.
And I know her lawyer.
He's my lawyer too, Brian Friedman.
And it's a funny story between the two of us.
I met him.
He was opposing counsel on a case in which I was getting sued.
It's a long story, but a former agent of mine, it went away.
But he was representing the agency.
And so he had to take my deposition.
And I was like, I can't stand this bastard.
He's such a bastard because I'd been watching him.
And then when he took my deposition, we totally bonded.
I fell in love with the guy instead of like hating him.
I'm like, he's so good.
And I really related.
We talked about everything, I had nothing to hide.
So it was like, anyway, that's Brian Friedman.
But before we got rid of the case, we had a mediation and he showed up and he was such a prick at that mediation again, before the deposition and he wouldn't budge at all.
And I remember being like, why is he such a prick?
He's all the way here from California.
He's not even like discussing.
We're supposed to be mediating.
Like, why am I here?
And the message that came back from him was, I really love New York this time of year.
I was like, I hate him.
Wow.
Now keep in mind, I literally love him.
I understood.
More than 1%.
He's like in my top 1% of people on earth.
But That's what Blake Lively is now up against.
So I'm sure the mediation didn't go better for her than it went for me.
And she's going to have to face him in court.
He's going to cross examine her, which should be her worst nightmare.
She should be under the covers at night praying somehow she can get out of this.
And I tell you, Maureen, I don't know what's left of her reputation to ruin because I feel like most of the country now gets what she has done to this guy.
I think it was more weighted towards her, maybe 65, 35 when it first started.
And now I think it's exactly the opposite.
And it's only going to go more in his direction if we go to trial.
But how do you see it?
I think this is so, I feel like it's over.
It's over.
The judge tossed the meat of her complaint, the spine of her, the only stuff that had real teeth.
And I actually, I remember reading this New York Times story when it came out.
And I actually, I think that the court of public opinion was more like 90-10, you know?
It was so detailed.
It's true.
And the things she was alleging were so awful and specific.
And when things- And cherry-picked.
And cherry-picked.
And then as we all began to hear just inside of the story, And I feel like it's been a very effective.
I don't know if it's Brian.
I don't know if it's publicist.
Justin has the both.
It's Brian.
Effective drip, drip, drip, and effective releasing of information in a way that's very consumable when people are ready to hear it.
I think what also has really helped damn Blake Lively's claims were the release in the last batch that I forget who broke it, but.
All of her emails to her A list friends, such as Matt Damon, Ben Affleck.
Oh, ridiculous.
Hey, listen, this movie's been a mess, but you know, like I'm taking control of it and I just need you to call this studio head and say, hey, give it to Blake.
I think those were exhibits in the motions for summary judgment on the proof that it had been amassed by each side so far.
What wasn't in those documents, in any of those emails or text messages, was, guys, I need your help.
He's sexually harassing me.
I can't show up to work.
I'm just trying to breastfeed my newborn.
And he's walking in on me.
And he's showing me photos, images of his wife giving birth.
I need your help.
I'm just a girl in distress on a movie set.
You know, not in there.
I've got my dragons.
Taylor Swift, that friendship is burned to the ground.
She's going to show up in a federal courthouse in lower Manhattan in May.
It's going to be a media circus.
Yes.
In June, Taylor Swift is getting married.
Oh, yeah.
It's going to be, this is not a good year for, I predict, I predict Ryan Reynolds will be.
Filing for divorce before the year is out.
I don't know about the timing, but I don't think that marriage will last because clearly she's a very small person.
Although maybe he's very small too and just does a better job of hiding it.
Rarely is there that big a gulf between partners, you know?
Very well matched.
I think they may be.
So, but she is clearly, she's been caught lying.
I mean, that's really the thing.
Like, the thing about the breastfeeding is a great example.
Like, he walked into my trailer and me breastfeeding, and then his side produced the text message of her being like, Yeah, you can come to my trailer.
FYI, I'm breastfeeding, but it's fine.
So, like, exactly.
No big deal.
You omitted a few things.
So now it's down to the retaliation claim.
And this is why I think she's doomed because that claim is based on the PR that she claims was unleashed against her after she complained about the sexual harassment, which again, she's now lost on the sex harassment.
That he hired a PR firm and that there's these snarky messages amongst his PR team.
That's how this case first opened in the New York Times because they got all the messages.
And the message is like, you know, we're going to sink her and she's dead, whatever she's done.
And As soon as Brian Friedman came out and contextualized those, and he did that on this show, and Steve, can you find that episode number so we can refer the audience?
We went through each one of them.
And what you actually see is Justin Baldoni was in a defensive crouch because this bully bitch was all over him.
She had wrested control of his movie from him.
She had made him go downstairs in the basement for the premiere of his movie.
She had been threatening him.
He understood full well that his career was probably done because she was such a bully and she had threatened the dragons.
Taylor Swift and Ryan Reynolds had her back and could crush anybody.
And he hired a PR firm just in case she was coming for him.
She made everybody in the cast unfollow him on Instagram.
So he saw it coming.
Like, she is going to try to ruin me because I didn't let her steal the movie and I did try to fight back.
And so he, of course, what should he do?
The episode is 977.
So worth your time.
Like, on the weekend, just you can go back and look at it.
But.
What should he have done?
And were the PR hacks who are always nasty behind the scenes supposed to speak the Queen's English in coming up with their potential plan if Blake had unleashed on Justin, what they would do to try to protect him?
Should they have said, well, we might issue a strongly worded letter to the New York Times?
Right.
Of course, they sound like PR hacks because that's what they were.
So I just think she's in trouble, that all she's left with is that sad little piece of her claims.
Exactly.
So she can attempt to destroy his career and reputation.
So he can never work again.
And he's supposed to not fight back.
That's in some substance, that's how I understand it to be.
Yes.
She can be as vicious and malicious as she cares to be.
And no one is to push back in the interest of saving themselves.
So, what I love for Blake is that she is done because I do not see how another director gets in league with her and doesn't think she's going to try to pull some shit like this.
Yes.
Who would trust her?
Meanwhile, I would happily.
Put money in Justin Baldoni's pocket.
I'll go pay.
I'll pay to see whatever he does next, just as a vote in the culture.
Like, I don't like this.
And by the way, Blake is hurting other women.
Every time someone this high profile lies about sexual harassment, you set the rest of real victims back.
So fuck her.
Fuck her.
She got up at the Time 100 and told this whole speech, gave this whole speech about her mother's alleged sexual assault, which was just so cynical.
Blake has not suffered anything like that, and we all know it.
So she took her mother's alleged experience to have like stolen valor, you know, for herself.
Like, my poor mom, okay, it's not you, it's allegedly your mom.
And we all know what you're doing.
You're trying to cast yourself with the basking of the Me Too, you know, glow of comfort and sorrow and support from your fellow women and others who are here.
And you're a glommer, you're a faker.
You've undermined any Me Too claims that are out there because people are more skeptical of them when they have liars like you.
Our opinion.
Stand by.
We have more to do.
We're not wrapping it up.
We're going to take a quick commercial break and then we will be right back with Maureen Gallahan.
Don't forget to go and subscribe to The Nerve while I have you.
Oh, and by the way, also go to MeganKelly.com.
Today is the day we send out the greatest American news minute of all time.
Strudwick, he's always the number one most clicked on item.
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There's an eyewitness, it's a whole crime scene.
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Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly.
I've got some exciting news.
I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM.
It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.
Along with the Megan Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Brzezinski, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more.
It's bold, no BS news, only on the Megan Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111, and on the SiriusXM app.
Maureen Callahan of The Nerve is our guest today.
Go and become a troublemaker.
You can check it all out.
Go to podcasts, go to YouTube, and you can just go to thenerveshow.com if you want links to all of those things.
I do want to get to Michelle Obama because we teased it at the top, and it's an important message from Michelle.
She's got something new and innovative and shocking to tell us.
It does relate to her marriage.
She had on.
Steph Curry, the basketball star, and his lovely wife, Aisha, who came on my show when I was at NBC.
She's a chef and she was so effervescent.
She was like sparkling in her personality.
She was very warm, very sweet.
I've never met him, but they went on Michelle's Loser podcast.
Unfortunately, someone misled them.
And here's the first exchange I'm going to show you in SOT 17.
Aisha, I love that you are plain spoken in life and sort of like me, but sometimes, you know.
You're stating what feels like the obvious sometimes in life, and then people interpret that the wrong way, right?
And, you know, I love your vulnerability and your honesty because I think that's what helps people.
You know, it's like it's one thing to be relationship goals, but it's another to tell the truth about what it takes.
And I tend to do that when I talk about the challenges of marriage and that.
It's not all that.
It's like, I love my husband.
I like my husband, you know?
But we also want to be a part of helping couples understand that it does take work and is hard, even in the best marriages.
These are what we call lies.
You know who I feel most sorry for there is Craig.
Brother Craig.
Sitting there like a lump on a log.
I got to hear this shit again.
All right.
Again.
It's nonstop.
And I'm sorry, but let's just have some real talk.
Aisha is sitting next to, and he is a huge star.
Steph Curry is adored.
People love him.
I do believe it's very, this is the deal when you're a woman married to a pro player at that level.
Part of the deal is you look.
The other way.
Michelle Obama wants to have a real conversation about that.
I'm all in.
Everyone would listen to that.
Instead of this generic boilerplate marriage can be hard work.
I mean, you know, I just love to remind people it's not all that, you know.
I mean, and then she's got to make it about herself, Hoda, right?
Like, yeah.
Just why don't you just interview your guest instead of being like she's working at her own issues, you know, like you have to be honest about how hard it is.
And then there's blowback and people misunderstand you.
I try to do that on this show.
I don't sugarcoat anything, even though I definitely like Barack and I love Barack.
Sure, Jan, sure.
No one believes that.
No one believes that.
And as we're watching her and listening to her, so we don't know this.
I just believe that she's on a GLP 1.
Oh.
Yeah, probably.
She's a lot thinner than she used to be.
But it's not just that she's lost a lot of weight, it's that now her face is beginning to become very wizened and she's beginning to have some skin sagging, like real drooping.
What does wizened mean?
It's like, think of like the Wicked Witch of the West, like old and dry, and like it's, you've got some folds in there.
No, you don't want that.
Yeah.
And she's starting to hide it with the hair.
She's trying, exactly.
That's a great catch.
She's trying to hide what's going on there with the hair.
And then she's losing all of her muscle mass because the GLP ones eat that up.
They eat up your muscles.
And, but what I feel like we're seeing is the outsides matching the insides where it's just this constant, it's a war of attrition in there.
And she's always going to lose because Michelle Obama is not interested in being happy.
Yeah, she's not.
My producer watched the whole thing.
I wasn't going to do that.
I love you, but not that much.
And she said, she said the whole exchange is Michelle Obama saying something super negative and Aisha Curry just being like, oh, well, it's fine.
You know, like she's positive and optimistic and I think actually does love her husband, unlike her interviewer, who is none of those things and is not in love and sees her marriage and her children as sources of misery.
So it was a complete mismatch here.
Confident Woman in Her Fifties00:03:02
Let's take another look at.
Some of the exchange and sat 18.
And it gets easier over time.
I mean, I've been saying this a lot.
It's like I'm 62 now.
It's the children leave.
It wasn't until my 50s that I felt like I could claim what I know.
I understood.
You know, and I think that may be a woman thing, right?
I mean, men are encouraged to, you know, like you, a man at 20, it's like you don't know anything.
You know, I mean, you were the men, you both were the men in high school.
You didn't know anything, you know, but you're handed that, you know, you're encouraged to be that, right?
Whereas us as women, we're always second guessing ourselves and wondering, he doesn't really like me.
And we don't get to make the first move sometimes in life, you know?
And I try to figure out what that is because it's not that I wasn't confident, but it took me a while to be like, I know what I'm talking about.
Oh my God, do you?
I think you should go back to the way you were in your 40s.
You were right then, not now.
I truly don't know what she's talking about because I'm listening to her say, we as women, I wasn't able to, I don't know what claim what I know means.
Right.
Like, okay, so you have things you know, but you can't claim them.
But if you know them, they're inside of you.
So who else would be claiming those things?
Like, I don't get it.
Right.
And then she says, you know, we're not told to understand ourselves when.
I'm thinking back to, you know, she's, she, she grew up on Oprah like the rest of us.
Yeah.
The Oprah industrial complex was all about the self actualization of women.
I would win.
Claim it.
Knowing oneself, living your best life, being authentic, finding joy.
Like she's, she's, she's spouting a lot of nothing.
And then if she, so she's claiming, poor Steph Curry, he's sitting there.
She's like, in my 50s, I could claim what I know.
He's like, yeah, right on.
I'll just do what brother Craig does.
Lob a few.
Yeah, right on.
Sure.
And she's just, she's nobody really knows what to say to her because I don't understand what it is she's actually saying.
No, it's like, sorry, it's like my brother, he'll laugh.
We'll be sitting with my mom and she'll get like on a tear about some memory or something like that.
And there's like a couple people whom my mom definitely doesn't like who have wronged her the course of her life.
And she will go into a thing where she likes to talk about them.
My brother will sometimes just to get her going, to be like, how's, and he'll throw up, and he'll look at me and he'll go, put another log on that fire.
Brother Craig, or that's what Steph Curry's doing.
Yeah, right, sure, right on.
And everything from her is negative, Maureen.
Like, do we ever run a positive sound where Michelle Obama's like, I'm so grateful.
My life is so amazing.
I've had so many gifts, and I just want to share with my audience how great life is and how, like, your life can be awesome too.
Carolyn Bissett Series Projects Dramatized00:15:22
And about looking on the bright side when life deals you lemons, no.
She's like, when you get a big glass of lemonade, you find the seed floating in there and you complain about it.
You got to wonder what those production meetings are like, you know, or like how they're.
I don't like it, it truly, like you just said, it boggles the mind.
This woman spends summers on yachts with the likes of Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks.
Not sure about that.
She travels the world at a moment's notice.
She has access to anything and anyone she wants.
She doesn't have to worry about another bill in her life.
She doesn't own a yacht, Maureen.
And you know why?
Because it's because she's black and this is a racist country.
That's obviously it.
All right, now, wait.
This woman is not rich, but what she's saying is rich.
Melissa Gilbert has sat down with George Stephanopoulos.
The interview is going to air next week.
So you haven't seen it yet, but they released a tease, a clip.
And it's about her husband, Timothy Busfield, who's under arrest and facing charges for allegedly behaving inappropriately with young children, molesting one and inappropriately touching another, which he denies.
And we've reported that the parents have said, Children are definite grifters, in my opinion.
They have a long history of fraud and related charges behind them.
Doesn't mean their children are lying, but it is an important piece to the story.
However, in the course of this proceeding, multiple women have come forward with stories about Timothy Busfield where he did pay out a settlement, where they did go on record, where he begged them for apology, where he had to stave off criminal charges by promising to go into rehab, and so on.
So we've learned a lot about her gross husband.
Doesn't mean he's a child molester, doesn't make him a good guy, because there's a slew of women who have come forward.
She goes out there and says the following in this preview clip.
Watch.
What has this whole episode been like for you?
Hell, this has been the most traumatizing experience of our lives.
Our life as we knew it is done.
We are grieving what we had.
All of our plans, all of our dreams, all of our ideas, all of our projects.
For Tim, it's done.
He's canceled.
And this will never, even if he's exonerated, he will always be that guy, the last person in the world who would hurt a child.
And believe me, if I thought for a second that Tim Busfield hurt a child, he'd have a lot more to worry about than prison.
Oh, do you care about the women?
I mean, some of the women who have accused him were 16 and 17.
So I guess, okay.
She lectured me about how those are also victims.
Which I agree with, of Jeffrey Epstein's women of that age, 15, 16, whatever.
I agree.
I never said otherwise.
She misrepresented me.
But now she excludes that age group and saying he would never hurt a child.
What's a 16 year old?
Oh, that's so interesting.
Right now, now he never hurt a child.
That's so interesting.
Okay, and here's the other thing.
What kind of a way of talking is that when this trial has yet to be held?
We don't know.
We, the public, do not know whether those boys are telling the truth or not.
They haven't had their day in court.
And she's out there styling the both of them as.
The victims here.
He's done.
Our lives are over as we knew it.
We have projects, projects in the work, Maureen.
Like what?
It was like so tone deaf, too.
Like what's been alleged is that he has molested at least one boy and behaved inappropriately with the brother, too.
No one gives a shit about your projects.
Can you speak to the young women who have come forward?
Can you say anything to the boys?
I mean, I guess you think they're fraudsters, but they haven't had their day in court.
She just wants to paint herself as a victim before the trial's even taken place.
I've had a huge problem with her since this story broke and these charges were brought and he was arraigned.
She showed up at that courthouse in her best little house on the prairie, dresses.
And I say when she says we have projects, and I say like what?
Because I mean like who cares?
First of all, you don't, she'd like, part of this is about reinforcing that they're power players in Hollywood.
You know, the priorities are so out of whack.
They're just so completely absent.
And it wasn't part of this also.
Didn't what we learned have to do with Timothy saying to some of these younger women that part of the reason he was acting out was because he and his wife no longer had sex?
Yeah.
He's humiliated.
Not her, though.
No, it was her.
No, it was her.
It was her?
It was Melissa Gilbert.
What?
Yeah.
They got married in 15, if memory serves.
And I thought these claims predated that.
Oh, they do.
Oh, they do.
Before they ever got married.
Like back when he was, I think, in San Francisco.
Didn't he run like a children's theater?
Yes.
He ran a children's theater, and one of the alleged victims was.
One of the young girls who was there.
Not young, I mean, whatever, 16.
We're saying the guy, there's some stuff that does not make one feel good, okay?
And Melissa Gilbert put herself back on Instagram nearly immediately with her lifestyle thing, like trying to sell women on domesticity and wifedom.
Are you kidding me?
Yeah.
Are you kidding me?
What is she out here trying to do?
She had been on the phone with the police.
That's right.
When they recited.
The charges that were coming against him.
They told him, You've been accused of sexual touching that's inappropriate with not one, but two boys.
And she knew the whole thing.
And she was running around trying to cloak herself in glory as like the protector of young people who are molested, whether it's by Epstein or somebody else.
And she knew her husband was about to be charged with molesting two young boys.
She's a hypocrite.
She's fake news, honestly, like her whole image and her squeaky little voice.
Our lives have been ruined.
No one gives a shit, okay?
No one cares.
Speak to the slew of women who have come forward.
How about their lives?
What happened to them?
I also don't believe that if the guy is exonerated, he's like absolutely done.
Like I just don't believe it.
Like if it's proven that this is a fraud, that, you know, like the anger, the public anger is going to veer towards the parents.
Either way, these children are victims, right?
They were victimized either by him or by the parents and children have no business in show business, period.
Yeah.
This is like, do we have to learn this lesson a million times over?
She, with her public moralizing, I think that's all projection.
I think it's deflection and projection.
This is the most attention she's gotten in many, many years.
She's enjoying it.
She's sitting down with George Stephanopoulos.
If she were treating this with the gravity it deserves, she would be keeping her mouth shut and her face off of our screens.
Yep.
No, she's desperate for attention, which she has been since she was a child.
We've got to finish by talking about Love Story.
Please.
We talked about this before it had really launched when you were on, I don't know, a time or two ago.
And my opinion, I was saying this to you in the break, of the two actors playing JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bissett has changed dramatically.
Now I'm totally in favor of them.
Now, I actually think they are good choices.
I love the guy playing JFK Jr.
I do too.
He's very hunky and he actually is very good.
Very good.
And I even think, like, Doug was like, why is his voice so weird?
Doug didn't like his voice.
I'm like, that's kind of how JFK Jr. sounded.
That was his voice.
He nailed the voice.
Right?
He didn't have like a deep, resonating, manly voice.
He sounded like this guy, which is not bad, but it's not.
It's a weird voice.
It's a weird voice.
And the woman playing Carolyn Bissett, I think, is doing a great job.
Sarah Pigeon, is that her name?
Mm hmm.
She's very interesting.
She's very beautiful to look at.
So, anyway, I've actually come to really enjoy the series.
I'm in episode five.
I totally agree with everything you say about Ryan Murphy.
He's disgusting and likely a misogynist.
But I want to get your take on it because what do you think?
So, for the, and I know, of course, how it ends because I lived it.
You know, I watched in 1999 from the Hamptons when that.
Oh, really?
Yeah, I was out in the Hamptons when that plane went down.
But what do you think is the overall gulf between the way they're being portrayed, these two, by Ryan Murphy on the screen and the way they actually were in real life?
There's something about JFK that he does get right, JFK Jr., which is this sort of shaggy dog, like aimless, like I'm a piece, like I'm a himbo.
He was a himbo.
He was a himbo who didn't really know what he was doing and everything in his life was falling apart.
What they shy away from the, see, I think if they had really gone in on the truth, I think they're kicking themselves.
They would have had two or three seasons.
This thing is a cultural phenomenon.
It's very rare in like our atomized culture where you get something where.
Everyone's kind of obsessed with it.
Yes.
And everyone is and was, and I get it, but like they completely ignore her drug use, which was very heavy, which was a real problem.
They completely ignore both of them cheating on each other.
They don't really get deep into how damaged both of these people were.
They were very damaged people who brought out the worst in each other.
And it sort of builds on itself from there as we approach the inevitable end.
I know you've also said you think there's.
A misogynistic tinge in the way they portray the actual crash.
Because effectively, Ryan Murphy at the very beginning of the series, and I'm not on the last episode, but I heard you talk about it.
And of course, I know what actually happened.
They blame her.
They blame Carolyn Bissett for getting her nails done, for being late.
They try to give themselves a little bit of an out.
Here's the thing this is where I think representation sometimes matters.
It's Ryan Murphy.
It's under his umbrella, and then the showrunner is a man.
The creators are a man, and I think you really need a woman in there a woman who knows what she's talking about.
They try to give themselves an out by having Carolyn's mother, after the crash in a conversation with Caroline Kennedy that never took place, say, You understand the media is blaming my daughter for getting her nails done.
Are you aware of that?
And Caroline says, in a very sort of humbled way, I don't, well, she says, I don't read the papers anymore, you know, whatever.
But they, nonetheless, they open the series with that, and they end the series with.
Her sister telling JFK Jr., don't be upset with her that she's running late tonight before they took off.
And we got it.
We got it.
Reinforcing it.
And then the way that he chooses to depict the crash, we talked on the nerve and we showed the photos and we showed one of the Navy divers who led the recovery of what was left of those bodies.
I heard very little left.
I heard the clips.
Right.
Yeah.
Ryan Murphy depicts it as they hit a little turbulence that night.
You're going to die when you see.
You have to let me know when you actually watch the finale because I'm going to die to know what you think of it.
But even people who are obsessed with them as a couple and their quote unquote love story were like, we don't want to see what went on in the cockpit.
Like, don't try to dramatize it.
Like, that's kind of a sacred thing.
Like, don't dramatize it.
We have a little bit of it.
Forgive me.
uh, here's that 22.
What is that?
It's a little light jazz as you're about, you know, like what is it exactly?
And she's sort of very, she's in this very sort of like Zen yoga master way saying, just breathe.
There's no chance that happens.
Breathe, which is like a callback to an earlier part of the series where he goes to her after his mother has died and he's having like a panic attack.
Yes, he's saying, just breathe, right?
And, you know, those girls, in reality, she and her sister were strapped in back to back.
With him.
So their backs were to his back.
Yep.
So as the plane is in its graveyard spiral, the G forces, the gravity would have been pushing them down on their, like there was, they knew what was happening, you know?
This, this to me is so irresponsible.
It's because it's not just a cultural document.
There are people who don't know anything about this and think it's all true.
They're going to think that this is how it happened.
And their relatives are still alive.
This isn't something that happened 100 years ago.
You know, it was 26, 7 years ago.
So like their families have to see this and It is, it's disrespectful to portray the actual moments before the death when you have no idea, especially when you're Ryan Murphy.
You're not known for your care and class and portraying any sort of an event.
And her mother is upset, I guess, about like the way her daughter was portrayed in the media.
That's, we pulled the clip that you're referring to.
Let's play it and then you can tell us what's happening here.
So this is, it's a made up scene between Carolyn Bissett's mother and Caroline Kennedy, SOT 24.
Some of the media are saying they crashed because Carolyn was getting her nails done.
Delayed their takeoff.
Not that your brother wasn't equipped to fly at night and took off anyway, but that she held them back.
Her vanity.
Are you aware of that?
I stopped reading the news.
Well, I have nothing left to protect but their legacies.
There are images of your brother beaming around the world on the cover of every newspaper and magazine.
Carolyn's photo is usually on the inside, and Lauren is practically a footnote, but she wasn't famous.
So I guess her face doesn't sell papers.
What's so crazy about this, Maureen, and you and I have been talking about this since you wrote Ask Not, is that John F. Kennedy Jr., in your view, clearly had a death wish.
And I've heard you say this is almost a murder suicide.
Like maybe not, you know, an intentional, I'm going to go murder, you know, but.
He lived so recklessly in so many ways and was obviously very depressed.
And in the way that some people who are very, very depressed just take huge unnecessary risks with their lives because they feel unimportant to them, they don't really care if they end.
To me, that seems like why that jet went down.
I put it together both on the nerve and I didn't ask why I think that.
And a lot of it comes from his historical record of not just placing himself in grave mortal danger, but bullying his girlfriends into doing it with him.
Yes.
So it's a pathology.
It's a pathology.
And on the mini tomorrow, I read a bit from Camille Paglia, who I love.
Drunk Camille Reenact Dad Risks00:09:40
And she gave an interview after that crash in which she spoke about all the ways in which it seems like it's so symmetrical that it almost really does feel deliberate.
Like he crashed the plane in view of Jackie's Martha's Vineyard estate.
He crashed it right there.
And the paper, the plane's registration papers washed up on Jackie's beach.
And Camille says, you know, it's like he never got over her.
And I think there's truth to that.
And his life was falling apart on all fronts.
He was, his marriage was failing.
His magazine was failing.
He was a laughing stock.
That was the first professional endeavor he had really undertaken.
And he was a middle-aged man at the time.
So that was a huge humiliation.
His sister was no longer speaking with him.
His business partner had cut him out of his life.
And his best friend and cousin was dying of cancer.
He would be dead in a matter of weeks.
That's five major catastrophes for someone who had never heard the word no, had zero internal resources, and had been warned repeatedly that night don't go up.
Don't go up.
He knew he didn't know how to fly that plane at night.
Oh, God.
All I keep thinking of is they say you marry the person who has both the best and worst characteristics of your parents.
And who knows if there was something inside of him that needed to like reenact his dad's assassination in a way.
How fascinating.
With like, not only would he die, but he needed his female witness, you know, because he did keep endangering his girlfriends.
And taking these massive risks that could have led to his own death.
And maybe in his mind, at some deep level, it was like, I'll die and she'll be there.
She'll, you know, I'm reenacting the same way my dad went out.
And yet he killed his bride and her sister in the process.
Well, that is a fascinating theory.
It never occurred to me.
But in thinking about it, it also, a death that young at the height of your beauty and masculine power.
Now, Camille says something also very interesting that she found it kind of unbelievable that at the age of 38, he had yet to produce an heir, to produce a child when in mythology, such as the Kennedys, heirs are crucial to the realm.
But perhaps he thought an early death, a tragic death like that, a violent one, would confer upon his legacy.
Things his actual life never would.
Yes, yes.
And that's back to your theory that it was in some ways intentional, at some level inside of him, intentional.
He wanted it.
And whatever that sickness was that he was dealing with caused him to take reckless risks before this event that did cost him his life and obviously that night.
So it's like, I agree with you because I don't think he actually wanted to bring that plane down, but he was completely oblivious.
To the fact that it might, like not, not oblivious, but like impervious.
Didn't care.
Didn't care.
It was like, fine, we're doing it.
I don't, I don't really care.
In the same way, like a drunk 17 year old will get behind the wheel of a car drunk and drive at 90 miles an hour because they're depressed and they're drunk or whatever, you know, like take these crazy ass risks, young teenage men in particular.
That's what I see him doing.
And you never, we never hear about like the sister.
The sister, yeah, she was completely forgotten.
I actually didn't realize there was another sister.
Yeah.
Lauren is a twin.
I didn't even realize that.
The mother has a point in this fictional scene about like.
There was a lot of emotional truth in that scene, a lot.
And Lisa lives a very quiet life.
She's an academic, she has a longtime partner.
She's been with him forever.
For a long time, I don't know if this still holds.
Every summer, she leaves the States to avoid coverage of the anniversary of the crash.
Yes, you told me this the last time you were on.
And once again, it struck me as like, wow, and it makes a lot of sense.
But yeah, and what about speaking of the sisters, what's this real truth about Caroline Kennedy?
Apparently, from what I've heard from people who know her, raging bitch.
She seems it.
They tried to humanize her a little bit towards the end there.
But you know, this is so talk about symmetrical, what you were just saying, you know, the way in which either a depressed or like a reckless 17 year old will get behind the wheel and the drug.
Like it kind of circles back to the beginning of our talk today about Tiger Woods.
He's depressed.
Yeah.
He's angry.
He is as emotionally and psychologically stunted as JFK Jr. was.
His parents did it to him.
The culture did it to him.
The media allows this.
We see prominent media people, you know.
And what does he do?
He gets behind the wheel.
He's reckless.
He wants to.
This is the other thing Camille says, which again, I just love her.
She says, I'm a libertarian.
You want to destroy yourself, destroy yourself.
That's your right.
But you have to keep it to yourself.
You cannot risk other people.
Yeah.
And not only was JFK Jr. risking the lives of Lauren and Carolyn, but of everybody down below.
You know, he didn't know.
Who the remnants of that plane would fall on, you know, who else would be killed if a plane comes down out of the sky.
God only knows how many people could be killed.
Some people on the water or debris nearby on land.
And Tiger, of course, that one's obvious.
But yeah, you're exactly right.
So it's like another, he's another one who you said they never said no to him.
They also never let him fail, right?
It's like the bar exam doesn't, doesn't, won't prop you up.
You pass or you fail.
That's it.
And so finally he got the help he needed to pass it.
He passed it the third time.
But the whole country was trying to prop him up to be the next JFK.
To be the next member of Camelot, restore the legacy.
And therefore, he couldn't fail.
There was nothing he could touch that wasn't going to be golden.
They needed it.
They needed to reenact his dad's life, which ruined him.
And that's why I think, well, to what you just said, like who else he could have harmed, it's not reported, but it is in the NTSB report.
And I talk about it in Ask Not.
He almost smashed into a packed American Airlines jetliner that night before he crashed the plane.
It was only the pilots of that jetliner who avoided that because John Jr. had cut off all of his comms.
Which again, the suicidality right there.
What was that last thing you just said about we could?
Oh, we could.
We needed him to be, we needed JFK Jr. to be like this president.
That's why I think Ryan Murphy's love story is dangerous in a way because it is a reaffirmation of this as a fairy tale, right?
And it keeps us mentally juvenile, like as a culture.
Like, well, we needed him to be great.
Like, he wasn't great.
It wasn't enough that he just survived what he did and could just have a life of any real consequence.
He had to be great.
He had to be our next president.
He had to be perfect.
And nobody could withstand that, right?
No, this is why I always make fun of my mom, Linda, but the messaging in my house was, you really don't seem special at all, but we're open minded to specialness.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, like if it manifests, cool.
But if not, that's fine too.
Like we love you.
Oh, that's interesting.
I get that.
I get that.
And I never felt any pressure, none.
I felt no pressure at all.
Well, I think that's really healthy.
It was.
It really was.
I mean, I think a lot of parents are afraid to do that to their kid because they think their kid will wind up a loser.
Right, like you'll just play to the lowest common denominator.
Like, I'm not meant to be anything, and I'm not anything.
It that's not how it was.
And I think if you're driven, you're driven, like it's your drive is gonna come.
Yeah, it happens with a lot of people when they're a little bit older, when they get you know a little bit more mature.
Yeah, but I really don't think the constant, like, first of all, the constant, you're amazing, you're great, you're brilliant, and you could do anything is necessarily the right messaging.
I confess, I do do a fair amount of some of that with my kids.
You know, like, I'm not like my mom, I don't tell them they're not special.
I can't do it, Maury.
Well, I do it to my godchildren, but I feel like I get to do that as their godmother because, like, I don't have the day to day grinding it out of like making sure those kids don't.
Yes.
Like, you know, Jackie's whole thing was like, don't be an asshole.
Yes.
You know, like that was like her bar was like, just don't be a prick.
You know, like all these cousins are killing people and maiming people.
Just be decent.
Yes.
You know, but he had all of this.
It's what Polly calls the Nazi interrogation booth of mega celebrity.
Oh, isn't that a phrase?
What is that?
How does that work?
What do you mean?
Like, her thing is like, he, from a very young age, JFK Jr., was placed in what the culture was like this Nazi interrogation booth where you are going to answer to us and you are going to become who we see you to be, you know?
And like we saw it at the 88 Democratic Convention when he gave that keynote speech.
Yeah.
He delivered a fine speech.
It wasn't Barack Obama coming out of nowhere, you know, saying, Speaking like in tongues.
It wasn't that.
But the media went aflame and they were like, he's our next president.
Oh, they were like, this is the reincarnation.
It was on.
Like, we're going to get the fairy tale ending to the story that we wanted.
Camelot's back.
We can pick up where we left off.
And it's like, we never had to suffer any of that pain.
This guy's going to make it come true.
And we can revel in the new Camelot without having to think about how the first one never really existed.
Du Da Höre De Intentional Narrative00:01:40
Exactly.
Read ask not if you don't believe me.
And didn't end well.
And it just wasn't Camelot.
That was a lie that Jackie put out there intentionally to.
To paint over his narrative in a way that she thought would be beneficial to him and their family.
All right, we got to go.
But once again, my friend, wonderful to see you.
Great discussion, and everybody, become a troublemaker.
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I'm looking forward to that interview tomorrow.
I will be listening to you along with everybody else.
Thank you, Megan.
Thank you for all of your support of what we're doing over at The Nerve.
Oh, Karis, I love it.
I love you.
I love you too.
Thanks for being here.
Thanks to all of you for listening.
Have a great, great weekend, and we will see you again on.
Monday.
Emily Jashinsky is coming on on Monday, and we have something very fun and special to show you with Emily Jashinsky.
I'm not going to tell you what it is, but we spent a lot of time with her behind the scenes, and let's just say there's a big reveal.
Okay, that's it.
Have a great weekend, and we'll see you then.
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