Charlie Sheen discusses his memoir and documentary, revealing how early fame fostered a false sense of invincibility that led to his 2011 meltdown. He details being exploited by management and ABC for clicks during his crisis, contrasts this with his eight-year sobriety, and addresses past blackmail regarding his HIV diagnosis. Reflecting on reconciling with brother Emilio Estevez and overcoming addiction's toll, Sheen emphasizes the necessity of stability for his children, concluding that true resilience requires acknowledging vulnerability rather than relying on charm. [Automatically generated summary]
Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at Noon East.
Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly.
Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show.
We have an amazing show for you here.
We've got Charlie Sheen and we couldn't wait to talk to Charlie Sheen and we taped a conversation with Charlie Sheen on Tuesday of this week.
And he was amazing, like completely honest and full of candor and self-deprecating and very reflective about the incredible life he's had.
And we had always planned with his team, they're doing a press rollout around his book and his documentary on Netflix to air it on Friday.
Well, as you know, something massive happened in the country between Tuesday and Friday involving another Charlie.
And we asked ourselves what to do about the Charlie Sheen interview.
And in the end, we've decided to put it out because I think we need it.
I think it's good.
We can't spend every moment in darkness and thinking about the awfulness that happened on Thursday.
We can't.
I'm losing track of my days on Wednesday.
We can't and we shouldn't.
We should take a moment to watch a silly comedy or listen to a podcast about decorating.
I don't take your pick, sports.
We have to continue on with our lives somewhat normally.
And so we are going to air this.
We also have an hour-long program that we're airing in tribute to Charlie Kirk.
But I think you'll enjoy this hour with Charlie Sheen.
I really did.
I did not expect to like him as much as I did.
And I just adore the guy now.
And I think you will too.
So enjoy.
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Charlie Sheen is an American actor and an icon.
His life has been a wild ride, born to father actor Martin Sheen.
What do you care if your brother ditches school?
He achieved success seemingly overnight and went on to star in films like Platoon, Wall Street, and The Rookie.
No, I don't want to do over.
He eventually became the highest paid actor in television history as a star on the beloved sitcom Two and a Half Men.
I am on a drug.
It's called Charlie Sheen.
But all of that success came with challenges, addiction, and tumultuous relationships.
Now Charlie Sheen is eight years sober and back to tell his story his own way.
His new memoir, The Book of Sheen, tells all.
And we do mean all.
And a new Netflix documentary released at the same time, aka Charlie Sheen, hits this week too.
I lit the fuse, you know, and my life turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be.
I've read the book, I've watched the documentary, and I could not recommend both more than I do.
Charlie, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Thank you, man.
It's an honor to be here.
Thank you.
I can't believe you didn't use a ghostwriter on this.
Thank you for the lovely intro, firstly.
You bet.
No, there was talk of that early on.
And I just thought that that wouldn't give me an opportunity to deliver it from the deepest reaches of myself, you know?
And I knew that it would, to the reader, that it would feel counterfeit, you know.
No, you can tell it's you.
I mean, your voice resonates comes right off the page.
And then if you read it while you're watching the documentary, it just validates that it's 100% you.
It's all you.
I feel like I know you so well now, having read this and watched this.
And here's where I want to kick it off.
Okay.
It seems like, you know, the addiction, I said to myself, who is Charlie Sheen?
Like, what do I think of when I think of Charlie Sheen?
Yes, icon, huge star, addict, of course, is one of the words, but truly also a genius.
And those things are not unusually paired.
It's not unusual to see those things together.
But it seems like there was a feeling of inadequacy in, let's say, Carlos Estevez versus Charlie Sheen, the icon movie star that we know now.
And my question in watching the film and reading the book was, where did that come from?
And I'll just give you my own pitch on it.
You tell me whether I have anything like the truth here.
You had a very famous father.
You then had a very famous brother, both of whom went before you and became famous in your brother's case or were famous in your dad's, when you were, you know, not.
You were just a regular kid.
And I think it probably had a profound effect on you being around that level of wealth and attention directed at people around you, but not at you, that maybe planted some seeds that weren't potentially healthy for you in the long haul.
What do you make of my theory?
I think your theory is more than just a theory.
I think you've tapped into some very solid truths about what motivated me or at least what drove me like it did, because for so long, I was Martin Sheen's son.
And then you add to that and Emilio Estevez's brother.
And it just, it got to the point where, and then, you know, growing up on dad's sets and then going out with Emilio and his crew of newly famed minted actors that he was making all his movies with, and just seeing the type of energy and the type of access and the type of fun and mischief that they all had such limitless access to, that I just,
I wanted a taste of it so badly.
And it was, it felt so close, yet at the same time, it was light years out of reach, you know?
Yeah, because just because you have fame in the family doesn't mean it's going to happen for you.
And so even trying for it was pretty bold on your part.
But your story is not one of somebody who knew he had to be an actor.
You had the thespian gene.
You were going to see it through.
It was kind of like just happened.
And then it happened really quickly.
Yeah, no, I got a little bit of a warm up.
I'd done a couple films and that nobody really cared about.
I was just trying to trying to get a SAG card, just trying to be a consistently employed actor and just kind of go from one job to the next and hopefully leave some good work behind.
And then just, you know, when when I guess stuff happens when it's supposed to or at times how it's supposed to.
And, you know, this, this, this cameo just falls out of the sky into into my lap.
And that was the film, Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
What do you care if your brother ditches school?
Why should he get to ditch when everybody else has to go?
You could ditch.
Gosh, I'm only on film like probably less than three minutes.
And even having done a couple of lead roles in forgettable films before that.
And then that thing hits.
And it's that thing I talk about in the book where the day before in the grocery store, the girls thought I worked there, you know, and then Bueller hits and I'm no longer wearing that imaginary Vons vest.
You know?
Well, I love the story behind that.
So Jennifer Gray did you a solid.
She got you the audition.
And you nonetheless showed up late.
You tried to stay up all night so you could look weathered and tired like your character and got a little too method, overslept the alarm, show up an hour and a half late.
Jennifer Gray's like, what the hell, man?
But it was a very interesting story you tell.
You're very insightful about how John Hughes, you saw him, you expected he was just going to throw you out of there and you got something different.
I thought he would continue the drubbing that she had initiated.
But with him, it came to a Flintstones halt.
And he just, like I say in the doc and the book, when he just took one look at me and he literally just said, oh, good, you're here.
Let's get started.
And just what that did for just calming my nerves and my confidence and just knowing that I was in the presence of a man that didn't care about anything that led up to the moment that he needed to get his director brain around.
And then it's pretty cool in the movie, you can still see Jennifer.
You can still see the trailing effects of some of the some of her ire and the animosity.
She's definitely.
Yes, no, she was great in that scene too.
And you stole the scene and you could argue you stole the movie.
And I thought about that with John Hughes and I thought, okay, I understand why he did it because you walk in, you're very good looking.
You are like oozing the right attitude for this guy, right?
He's like, this is my guy.
I need him in this scene.
And I think like that would come back to help you many times, your movie star appeal, your good looks, your charm.
But it wasn't always a force for good.
Like these things that would get you a pass from people like John Hughes that happened to you repeatedly in your life sound good on paper, but like maybe weren't because gave you a feeling of invincibility, like you could get away with anything.
And maybe that wasn't such a great thing for the other piece of Charlie Sheen, which is the addict piece.
Yeah, no, certainly it was not a great thing.
I mean, it's nice to be forgiven.
Obviously, it's nice to be given second chances and all that good stuff.
But, and, and, and we touch on this in the doc a little bit.
What was interesting that even after not not the biggest disasters or, you know, the, furthest falls, but there was there was a pattern of, you know, Fucking things up, sending shit off the rails, and then and then having a job literally on the other side of that event once I had,
you know, once I dusted myself off and got back ready to work.
So, yeah, so, but, you know, I think there's two sides to that, didn't mean I had to take those jobs, but, but it, but it also didn't mean that, that they always had to be there.
Does that make any sense?
I kind of went completely around that.
I get it.
But I just think like opportunity kept coming your way because you really do have true genius in this field.
You can see it in the parts you play.
You embody these characters.
It seems to come easy to you.
Like to us lay people, it certainly does.
And yet the universal rewards for those talents may not be a good thing.
Like this kind of dawned on me while I was reading the book.
Being universally rewarded for these preternatural gifts, whether it's appearance or abilities, could in some ways be a devil on your back because a life without consequences can lead to some bad choices and a false feeling of invincibility.
Of course it can.
Of course it can.
Yeah.
And there's also there's this thing about not having to deal with a ton of failure at first.
There's a little piece in the book where I mentioned that they teach us as kids, if at first, you know, you don't succeed, you try, try again.
If at first you do succeed, that's where that saying ends because it was never written.
It doesn't exist, you know.
And then it's like even talking about, you know, watching dad, you know, with with his ascent to stardom and his brilliant career and then watching Emilio, it's you, you know, I thought that I would have a handle on what that might feel like once, you know, were I fortunate for it to happen to me as well, even on a smaller scale at, you know, just a fraction of what they'd achieved.
But there's no way to really prepare anyone for it.
There's no way to, I guess in some way, it'd be like asking, you know, Barry Bonds or Hank Aaron, you know, what it actually feels like to hit a home run.
You know, they can, they can describe the mechanics of it, but they can't really ever put you inside a moment that you have to inhabit to truly own that experience.
And so watching it and then living it was a whole different reality.
But then it's nice to have people you can check in with and say, hey, okay, so this happened with the thing.
And then I saw how you dealt with that.
And then any recommendations, any ideas.
But even the advice sometimes, it's well-intentioned, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be useful.
And I don't mean that dismissively, just that, you know, giving people advice for things that they have to experience doesn't work.
Is that making sense?
Is that what you're doing?
Yeah, we all learn that as parents.
You know, you want to spare your kids all the pain and anguish you experienced by telling them the life lessons you learned.
And I mean, I've concluded 15 years into motherhood.
Advice That Feels Like Waste00:15:16
It's not a complete waste of time, but it's really close to a waste of time.
They have to make their own mistakes in order to really learn the lessons.
Sure.
It's pretty close to a waste of time.
That's brilliant.
Pretty close.
I mean, I can see, like, I'm sure Martin Sheen was like, Charlie, I'll walk you through exactly how to handle these massive challenges.
You know, he's a huge star, big movie star in his day, Apocalypse Now.
And he's probably thinking, I can spare you so much grief.
And then you learn the hard way, oh, God, he's going to need to experience grief his own way.
And it's going to be really public too, in your case.
But isn't it interesting?
In the book, there's those early examples of that he was the voice of advice that I would seek.
He was the guy that I would go to.
you know, the thing that happened with the Karate Kid, the thing that happened with that early MGM deal.
And he was the guy I would go to.
And then, of course, when it came to Platoon and he advised against that as well is when I finally told him, I said, I got to just, I got to roll the dice on this one.
Because you were offered the lead role in Karate Kid, ultimately played by Ralph Macchio, and you turned it down for some film with the word grizzly in it where you and a very young George Clooney and a young Laura Dern would remember no one would ever remember whatsoever.
And your dad had told you you needed to say no to Karate Kid because you had committed to this other film.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not the worst advice in the world if you just break it down just into the credo that he was, you know, into just the noble essence of what he was trying to get me to pursue, you know, or to recognize, you know?
So, but yeah, that was a hard one to watch and, you know, go get eaten by a bear and then watch Ralph deal with that.
But then I heard you say this in the documentary, you know, no, no offense to Ralph Macchio, but like he was kind of typecast after that.
And Ralph did not go on to become some huge Hollywood movie star like you did.
But he still had a really respectable and terrific career and still does great work to this day, you know?
Yeah.
But if you think of the Karate Kid, it's really difficult to picture anyone except him, even if you've just seen the first one.
You know, I don't think I had the skills or the tools or the mindset or anything at that moment in time to pull off or bring to it what he was able to.
So I think the film would have been different or would have started with me and that it finally just went, yeah, yeah, you know what?
Let's let's go with that Italian kid that we had a couple days ago, you know?
So who knows?
Instead of the Spanish kid.
Instead of the Spanish kid.
You come from a long line of Spanish people, like a whole family, like Ramon, he's in the in the documentary and Emilio.
Yeah.
Your dad's name isn't really Martin.
It's very Spanish.
Do you connect it all with that piece of your lineage?
Just through stories and just through relatives and just I don't I don't I don't go on the pilgrimages like my brother Ramon does and Emilio and dad.
I guess I lean more into the into the Irish side of our roots.
No offense taken.
Yeah, I know exactly where you're going with that.
I would say your love of beautiful women, that's very Spanish.
So like maybe it's in you in other ways that are more silent.
All right.
So now you get cast in platoon.
And this too was a role that was supposed to be Emilio's.
This was a role that was supposed to go to somebody else that you got because of timing and he took on another project.
One thing led to another.
So you wind up getting this role and that was it, right?
Was platoon was the big before and after, like, now I'm a household name.
There's BP and there's AP.
She ever gets caught in a mistake that you just can't get out of, okay?
Yeah.
Before Platoon, after platoon.
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, again, oh, hey, there's a nice photo.
Johnny, what a trip.
God, that feels like 100 lifetimes ago.
You know, you were a baby.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, we didn't know what we were, what we were, what, what we'd created.
You know, we didn't, we, we, we thought the vets would appreciate it.
We thought, you know, we thought other filmmakers would think we'd, we'd given a, you know, taken a pretty good, pretty good shot at it.
But no, we did not expect that the, the, the, the entire world was going to join in the celebration.
You know, it was, it was, it was a pretty exciting time.
The first real movie about the war in Vietnam is Platoon.
Then you get the kind of fame that's like you walk into a football stadium and everybody knows you.
Not to mention you could sleep with any woman in there, which, you know, like that's very heady, hugely heady.
And at the same time, you're hanging out with all these big stars.
Like, I didn't know anything about your long friendship with Nick Cage.
Hello?
That's amazing.
Yeah.
And I think what's in the dock with Nicholas and myself and what's in the book, I think there's some really cool, really just memorable, you know, unforgettable stuff between us.
You know, it's not all in there.
And that's just, hey, there we are.
And that's out of respect to him and myself.
And, you know, there's some stuff that's just probably better that it just stays between the people and exists only in that moment in time.
But I, but I think there is enough there to just give a taste, just give a vibe of the kind of the energy that we were both, you know, that it was weird.
It's like we found each other right when we needed to.
And it wasn't a competition thing, but we just, I think I talk about something in the book that, you know, something about we're both on the verge of complete fission and I brought the missing neutrons, you know, stuff like that.
It's interesting.
I just spoke with Nicholas about an hour ago today.
And this dude at 9.01 in LA, knowing it was past midnight East Coast, downloaded my audio book and listened to it, like started it last night and finished it today and wrote to me, wrote this beautiful penning of just love and support.
And he was just such passion and excitement.
I just, I called him and it was really, that was just like an hour ago, you know, because he didn't care about people about the disclosures you made.
He did not care about the disclosures you made about him.
No, he loved the stories.
He loved the writing.
He just loved that.
He just loved that he was a part of it.
It was so cool.
It was such a, just a loving, I don't want to call it an endorsement.
It was, it was, it was a, it was just the kind of support that I would have hoped for, but when you get it for real, you know, especially from him, it was, it was pretty special.
And I hope he doesn't mind that I'm, I'm sharing this with the world, you know.
Now, I have to imagine you've gotten a phone call from literally every gay man who's ever met you and has your number saying, I see a window.
Is it still open?
I mean, not exactly.
No, it hasn't, it hasn't gone there because that was a pretty isolated, isolated thing.
And again, that's not about shame or that's not about anything like that.
That's just about, you know, trying to just be respectful of other people's privacies and stuff like that.
But it is kind of funny.
Yeah, I actually did have that thought.
What's it going to be like now in the streets?
Am I going to be getting the thing?
You know what I'm saying?
Yes, you're going to be getting the thing.
If everything gave Anne is going to say, so you're saying there's a chance that for the listening audience, Charlie reveals in the book that he, while on drugs, had a couple of interludes crossing over to the other side.
He's not declaring that he's gay or bi or anything else, but is just being honest about his life intoxicated and high.
And that's why I say some will see a window.
That's all right.
That's flattering.
I mean, what the hell, right?
It's one moment in a very long life.
And I said something the other day that I guess I just wanted to have just a little bit more in common with Richard Pryor and Marlon Brando and Mick Jagger.
Mick Jagger.
That's who I was thinking of.
That's pretty good company.
That's some Hall of Famers right there, you know?
But it does have to be a relief.
You know, you write about how you paid people blackmail money to keep that secret.
You came out a long time ago as HIV positive.
You had to pay people to keep that secret.
I mean, this is a lot to be laboring under.
It's exhausting.
It's exhausting.
And to always, anytime the phone rings or you see an email from a lawyer or just, or a manager that always talks to that lawyer, and it's just, it just got to the point of this, you know, if this is prison, the only thing that's missing, it's the bars and the guards, you know.
But, but yeah, and, you know, I was talking to Emilio and he said, he said, are you cool that like all this stuff is, you know, is out there and like that?
And I said, well, you know, I got to be honest, man, it's, it feels a lot better, you know, out there than it did in here for so long.
And so, and, and the other thing is, like, don't put something in a book and in a doc that come out, you know, a day apart unless you're going to be willing enough, uh, courageous enough, um, open enough to discuss those things, you know?
Because I did the GMA piece.
I did the GMA piece with Strahan, which I think went pretty good, right?
Yeah.
And then the, one of the producers came up and said, wow, that was, that was so courageous.
And you just, you didn't, you didn't dodge it.
And I said, well, yeah, I already wrote about it and spoke about it and put it.
And she said, oh, no, no, you, you'd be amazed how many people put stuff in a book.
And then when it comes time to, you know, promote it or discuss it or whatever, they, they completely lose their minds.
They, they, they, they just want to run and hide because I guess they never or they didn't see the connection between like, okay, it goes here and then, you know, and then does that.
It's still, you know, it's, you're responsible for all of it.
And so there's an annoying publicist who says, don't ask about this.
Meanwhile, the principal is fine asking about it.
So oftentimes it's a function of that.
Having worked on the Today Show, I know that the PR people can be absolutely awful and not really telling you not to ask something like you've just read it in the book and then you want to tell them, but it's here.
How do I know this?
I know this because he wrote it.
Like he told me.
I didn't pull it out of the ether.
Right.
So some are good.
Yeah.
Some are awful.
I mean, that was actually one of the questions I had for you was not about a PR person, but I was on Fox News in 2011 when you had the two and a half men cancellation and the winning and like the super torqued up Charlie with all the testosterone.
You write about like, it was something like 4,000, which is, I don't know what number is supposed to be normal, but it's like two digits, not three and not four.
I am on a drug.
It's called Charlie Sheen.
I'm different.
I just have a different constitution.
I have a different brain.
I have a different heart.
I have a different, you know, I got tiger blood, man.
You don't worry that you're going to die when you take that many drugs.
Science fools.
So you got fired from two and a half men and you went on this like winning tour.
And what I see in the documentary really jumped out at me, which was, this is my opinion, totally douchebag managers who exploited you.
The troubled actor is taking his bizarre behavior out on the road for Charlie Sheen Live, my violent torpedo of truth.
I think what your name is synonymous, and I don't mean this in a negative way.
Trouble.
And I think like torpedoes of truth is so brilliant because it's like, it just sounds exciting.
People were like, get out there, go out on the stage, make money.
They want to see you.
Meanwhile, you were in crisis.
So it's kind of irritating as a fan and a viewer to see that happen.
How do you see the role of those around you, the professional people?
In the middle of that whole chaos.
Yeah.
I was, it's kind of a double-edged sword because I was really hard to control.
I had found some different level of, I don't know what.
There was just some other energy or some other possession or just some just thing that I just needed to stay attached to.
And I can't even really describe it.
It was, I don't want to say it was out of body because then you're kind of like not owning it.
I knew what was going on.
I just didn't want it to stop.
And that's the part I can't really explain.
When I look back on that stuff, it's like, dude, like, okay, maybe after that interview, you issue a statement or you just like go just disappear somewhere for a month.
But to keep that thing going was just like, that's the part, just the energy that required.
I don't have that kind of stamina anymore.
But as far as the people that I guess you could say were more complicit than not, it does take two to tango.
And I say in the book that in this case, it felt like it felt more like 2000.
But I also specifically write a line about in the years since I've combed through the mental health manual and I still can't find vile exploitation as a treatment protocol.
So that is a quote from the book.
So yeah, I'm going to point some of that stuff out.
And then when I talk about Mark Berg, and Mark and I are great friends these days, but I do say Mark was the gatekeeper and I wish he would have had a better key or a stronger lock or something that, or a lock that looked more like a comfy chair and a willing ear.
Protecting Vulnerable Guests From Exploitation00:02:08
You know, it's like I just think there could have been a moment in the middle of all that when someone could have just said, all right, we're going to, you know, the party, we're putting the chairs on the table, putting the lights on, the party's over, this guy's coming with us.
And it could have been, could have been interrupted, you know.
But then suddenly there's this idea for a tour, you know, and I, and I'm like, what would that even, what does that mean?
I'm not a, did I, did I start a band I can't remember forming?
Is there some part of me like, what are we, because touring for me is all, it could only be a musician or like a really popular comedian, right?
And there was nothing funny about my act at that point, right?
But yeah, and then Live Nation gets involved and I go visit them and suddenly, you know, I'm holding a machete to a cheering crowd and they're booking dates, you know, which is why in the book, the only thing that I describe on that tour is that is that, I don't want to give it away, but is that incident that takes place in the bathroom, you know?
And I think just symbolically that's really how I felt about that whole shitstorm.
I watched it and I just thought I watched it when it happened as a newswoman and I was horrified at how you were being exploited.
It was obvious you were in crisis.
I felt the same about Kanye.
I did not interview Kanye when he was going on his recent media tour because I could see the guy was in the middle of what appeared to be a bipolar episode.
I did not pile on when that mayor up in Canada was going through it.
Like I just don't like it when news people, I think news people too have a responsibility not to have you on when you're in that state and pretend that you're okay or that this is an okay interview to be doing because this is a compromised person who needs help not to be exploited for clicks.
It's very fucking annoying as a news person to watch.
Why I Avoided Interviewing Kanye West00:03:33
Yeah, no, and that's that's that's great to hear.
At least there's there's there's one of you that cares.
No, there's others, I'm sure, but even the Andrea Canning of it all, right?
She's terrific and I'm a fan and I, you know, she does great work.
She was with ABC at the time and I put that responsibility on ABC.
Yeah, but I was working out in a gym and I saw her on a on a monitor, like up in the corner of the room with the sound off.
And I knew this interview was coming and I didn't know what the hell it was going to turn into, but I was with somebody and I said, hey, what about her?
She looks pretty smart.
She looks like she knows what she's doing.
Maybe she'll do the interview.
I mean, literally, it was like that.
No research, nothing.
Didn't know her backstory.
So she gets just yanked into this thing, you know, and then, yeah, she was like just front and center for that thing, you know?
She was like putting on the seatbelt to do that interview.
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I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.
Navigating Family Drama and Dad Films00:15:54
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I want to talk about sobriety because I think it's kind of interesting how it happened for you.
But before I get to that, the hero in this story after you for rescuing yourself from your addictions, or at least from the active addiction, is your dad.
And I just like, to me, I have such empathy for him because Charlie, I will tell you that I lost my sister at age 58 two years ago, a couple years ago.
And thank you.
And she, she was an addict and she had a lifetime of similar problems.
With her, it started as a prescription pill that she was given.
And like when I saw the number of times your dad intervened and tried so hard, sometimes he did the right thing.
Sometimes it was questionable what he did.
But what I saw was this extremely loving father who really wanted you to stop doing drugs, who desperately wanted you to get better and didn't totally know how to stop it.
And then I saw he didn't participate in the documentary and neither did Emilio.
And I know you say it's because they watched the rough and they said, you got it all covered.
But I did wonder, is that the full story?
Or do you think there's like a lingering resentment at all there?
Because I certainly think in my family, having an addict is like having a nuclear bomb go off in your nuclear family.
And there can be lingering resentment.
Interesting.
Yeah, no, I think that's all face value.
I think that's all face value with because I was in the room with them watching both of their reactions to the rough cut and they couldn't have been more excited or passionate about it or celebrating it more.
And dad was just like, I'm in this.
I'm already in this, start to finish.
And Emilia was like, geez, I don't know what I could possibly contribute beyond what Charlie's already doing.
And I just, I genuinely think like they didn't want to get in the way or try to tell my stories through their POV, even though that's sometimes, you know, that's part of how documentaries get to different parts of stories.
And that's a device that they do lean into.
But no, because I think.
You know, we started this about two years ago.
So I was at that point clean about almost six years.
And so they knew that this, that, that I wasn't, you know, I was committed to this thing.
And you guys are good.
So like you feel legitimately like you've made amends with them and you're in a good position.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
No, Emily and I have been texting all day.
He'll read something about the doc or the book and he'll send it to me.
And then, and we just had a terrific piece come out.
He interviewed me for Interview Magazine.
And so, and then they just print the transcript of our Zoom call, even though we live a block from each other.
We did it on Zoom, you know, and it dropped today.
And some of it is hysterical.
And anybody that's like, and I'm not saying, but like anybody that might be questioning that we're on the ounce or there's a thing or whatever, it's you, you read this piece and you can see like two guys that are, they're still a couple 12-year-olds like talking about jaws, you know?
And it's a wonderful piece.
Part of what's so great about the movie, the documentary, aka Charlie Sheen, is the Super 8 film that you guys took of each other when you were kids.
And the way you talk about LA is interesting too.
It makes it sound like a city in which you might actually raise a family back in the day in the 70s and late 60s.
It used to be.
Yeah, it used to be.
It used to be more rural, you're describing.
And that's why your dad and your mom chose to raise their family there.
But you guys with the Super 8 videos, like pretend acting, like trying to be actors like your dad.
And you were getting good at like the death scenes and the shooting up scenes.
It was like pretty well done.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We were front row watching him do it, you know, in his roles, on his sets, sometimes all over the world.
There'd even be days, and this isn't in the dock, where I'd be with Chris Penn and I'd be messing around with a cap gun or a starter pistol or something.
And dad would be watching and he would be like, you know, doing a light workout just over in the other part of the yard or getting some sun or whatever.
And there was one day when he said, hey, guys, guys, hold on a second.
Hold on a second.
He says, all right, if you guys are going to do it, let me show you how it's going to look better.
And I got this little cap gun or starter pistol with blanks.
And he says, all right, Charlie, whenever you want, I'm going to be folding this towel.
You shoot me and I'll show you how a guy would respond, you know, more realistically getting shot.
He's in it.
He's going to be pissed that I shared this, but it's really a cool memory in a moment.
It's not in the dock.
It's not in the book, but it's right here.
And I turn on him and I fired a shot and he took it.
And it wasn't like this super crazy five minute dramatic death.
He just buckled and then right on his back.
And Chris and I were just like, oh my gosh.
Okay.
So now we had a template to work from.
Now we had like a real pro who'd been shot on film like a thousand times showing us like this is this is going to up your game.
A lot of parents will sit down with their kids and help them with their homework.
My dad was showing us like how to take a bullet.
How to get a shot.
Yeah.
That's quite helpful.
Pretty wild.
Here's a tough one for you.
Who is the better actor?
Charlie Sheen, Martin Sheen, or Emilio Esteves?
Wow.
Gosh.
I think dad's the best dramatic actor of the three of us.
I think I may have a slight edge in the comedy department, right?
And I think Emilio is more comfortable than Pop and myself with romantic stuff.
I can see that.
Yeah, but I didn't answer your question, did I?
Okay, we didn't have to do that.
Or best, you know, like who's going to get the Lifetime Achievement Award?
Hopefully Pop, because you know what I'm saying?
I mean, he's, he, yeah.
But I think there's things that he can do that Emilio and I can't, stuff Emilio can do that Pop and I can't, and then finish that triad with the other two that can't.
Yep.
You know, the scene, of course, in Wall Street with you and your dad.
Man, I told you not to get into that racket in the first place.
You could have been a doctor or a lawyer.
You write about, you write as follows.
There are a few moments with dad in that film that had flashes of promise from my end.
He was his usual fabulous self, and I was doing whatever I could to not vanish on screen next to him.
I mean, how special was it that you had that feeling about him and working with him?
And in part, that was portrayed in the relationship between Bud Fox and his dad in the movie itself.
That's right.
Right, right, right.
No, it was an incredible experience.
I, you know, little pieces of regret throughout that, that I could have been more present, that I could have been just more dialed in, more professional.
I think what's, I think, covered nicely in the book is that, you know, Platoon is still burning down the box office when we start Wall Street.
And so there was like a lot of distraction.
I wanted the party to keep going.
And I think that I mentioned something about just wanting to be, you know, playfully drunk on a fancy boat in tropical waters with beautiful women, you know, not like working again, stuff like that.
So there was a lot of distractions doing that.
So some of the stuff with dad, and he was well aware of it.
And so he was, I think, just hoping for a more focused me.
And that's why I talk about doing my best to not vanish on screen next to him, talent-wise, but also just, you know, where my head was at, you know.
And speaking of Wall Street.
Is it time?
It's time.
Okay.
You know what?
I think we should, let's play SOT 51.
This is a kid.
Calls me 59 days in a row.
Wants to be a player.
Ought to be a picture of you in the dictionary on a persistence kit.
I just want to let you know, Mr. Gecko, that I've read all about you at NYU Business, and I think you're an incredible genius.
I've always dreamed of one thing, and that's to do business with a man like you.
What firm you with, Pal?
Jackson Steinem?
Good going places, good junk bond department.
You do the financing on that Jansen investment?
Yeah, yeah, we're working on some other interesting stuff.
Cosmetic company by any chance?
What are you 12th man in the deal team has to know?
I can't tell you that, Mr. Gecko.
Great stuff.
Is it true you don't look back fondly on that film that you've only watched it twice?
I liked that scene.
Yeah.
What's not to like?
I mean, there's a lot going on there.
There's some charm.
There's some heart.
There's some, you know.
Yeah.
You know what?
Maybe it's time I revisit this thing.
You should, because I've seen it at least 20 times.
And it's, it's such a special film.
I love the character arc of Bud Fox, and I think it totally captures what happens to young guys on Wall Street to this day.
My husband actually wrote a book called Ghosts of Manhattan, and it's all about this exact issue.
And I thought you just completely portrayed it.
You nailed it.
And the relationship that you have with your dad in the film is just the chef's kiss on top.
But can we both agree that Daryl Hanna was miscast?
She was.
And she knew it.
And she knew it.
Really?
I mean, she could feel it.
She could feel it.
And I think maybe some of the way that she wasn't as embraced as she could have been by Oliver and just in certain moments, you know, and I do touch on some of that in the book.
Oliver's the only guy in the book that I don't want to say I go after him, but I, but I do talk about things because I was describing these other experiences and these other films.
And I'm like, okay, you know, all this stuff can't just be like this lovey-dovey, flowery actor-director, you know, relationship stuff.
There's, you know, when it got a little rumbly and a little tense, I thought that was worth sharing.
And, you know, it's not about, you know, taking him to task.
It's just about like pointing out things about him that he's freaking pointed out about other people for years.
You know, he's never been shy talking about certain actors and certain things and experiences.
And so he can take his slings and arrows.
Yes, he can.
And he and I haven't worked together since Wall Street.
I mean, that shitty little cameo in the, in the, in the ill-advised sequel to Wall Street, right?
Yeah.
And so, but that doesn't count.
So it's not like Oliver's been banging down my door since 1987, right?
So maybe this approach gets his attention.
Maybe this will get him to reach out.
No, this, this he'll respect.
All right.
People are telling us we got to wrap.
So I want to see this.
I know.
I thought we were just getting warm.
The PR people are annoying.
I'm telling you.
Just you'll give me your number later and I'll go directly to you next time.
They'll love that.
Awesome.
This is where I want to end it.
And I hope this isn't too dark for you, but you pulled yourself with some friendships and support out of decades of addiction.
And this time it seems to really be sticking.
You're eight years sober, which is amazing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And here's what I want to ask you.
So I know you knew Matthew Perry.
You write in the book, we were both veterans of the unspeakable.
Really well said.
Thank you.
We did a long tribute to Matthew Perry, who was so talented after he died.
And it was obvious that his addiction had not been totally licked.
And if you don't ultimately lick it and stay off of the drugs and stay clean, it ends the same for virtually everyone.
So please don't do that to us.
Please know how important you are in our culture and as a figure who kids look up to and people admire and want to continue applauding and cheering for for decades to come.
I really hope you know we're all rooting for you and just want nothing but good things for you.
That's amazing.
That is, there's such love and compassion in that.
And that is a request that I wholeheartedly have every intention of honoring because it's like you were saying, you know, drugs are undefeated.
They're undefeated.
It's like 20 million to zero, you know?
And I just, even writing the book, watching the doc, it's, I mean, I'm the guy that lived it and survived it.
And I, and I still don't completely know how.
I think the why part will be revealed over time.
And, you know, and that's fine.
That's not, that's not on, that's, that's not up to me.
But, um, but yeah, I, to, to, to get through that, you know, several times and then continue to thumb your nose at the universe, I think at that point, you're, you're, you're asking for it, you know?
And, and it's interesting because you do talk about that Matthew, you know, was still struggling a little bit when he had to go on the tour and promote the book and do all that stuff.
Surviving the Unexplainable Past00:02:46
But I could see it.
I know a lot of other people could too.
And I could also hear it when I listened to the book.
I could hear just because for a guy that just had such precision with his diction and his delivery and his timing and just everything.
And it just, it was just left of center.
And you just felt like, and I read his book.
I read it in a day because I just got so deep into it and nothing else mattered.
And I wasn't stopping until I finished.
And I so wanted to reach out to him and I didn't.
And he died a month later.
And it was just, you know, so, yeah, I don't want to do that to my, to my kids.
I don't want to do that to my, the rest of my family.
And yeah, if you get a second, third, fourth, and fifth chance, you know, wrap your arms around it and just, you know, just consider it a freaking lotto win every day.
Well, maybe there's a good, a better chance this time because I'll tell you, I'm a little younger than you are, but not by that much.
And I've referred to this as my fucked 50s.
You really don't, you don't care what people think of you.
You really change in your 50s for the better.
It's one delightful thing about getting older.
And I think more so when you're in your 60s.
So I feel like you've got all that ahead of you.
You've got all this goodness.
You've hopefully will meet somebody and fall in love, which is not a false god.
You've already got enough money so you don't have to chase the dollar, which is another false god.
You've already proven that you can do all this shit to your body and still stay standing, which check.
Okay, we've got that.
Maybe we won't continue the parties with Nick Cage.
That could be a thing of the past.
That's fine.
I think that that might be a healthy choice.
I leave it up to you.
But whatever you choose, I really hope it fulfills you like from the inside and that you have like a, maybe not a fucking 50s, but like a spectacular 60s and beyond because we all are rooting for you.
Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
That is, that is, that just, that's, that's the nicest thing ever.
That is, that is so sweet.
And, and, and coming from you, that, that, that means the world.
Thank you.
Wow.
All right.
Well, I will, I will talk to you on the next episode of the Megan Kelly Show where I'll be thinking of you as I say the word SAT 40.