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Feb. 15, 2024 - The Megyn Kelly Show
42:46
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DNA Evidence on the Sheath 00:14:46
Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Megan Kelly Show.
I'm Megan Kelly.
In December, we brought you five episodes of a special series devoted to the quadruple murders in Idaho and the arrest of suspect Brian Koberger.
The response we received was overwhelming in emails sent to me at Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at MeganKelly.com, in comments on YouTube and our other social platforms, and the Apple reviews.
We were very grateful to hear from all of you and we're very glad that you enjoyed it so much.
Many of the comments we received were requests for more coverage, a little further digging into outstanding issues around this case.
These questions are what inspired this sixth episode in our series.
First, as a refresher, on November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death shortly after 4 a.m. in their three-story home.
Those students were Ethan Chapin, Kaylee Gonsalves, Xana Kernodal, and Maddie Mogan.
These were horrific, brutal murders, up close, personal, and completed in the span of less than 20 minutes.
Two other surviving roommates, Bethany Funk and Dylan Mortensen, were home at the time.
We would later learn that Dylan Mortensen told police she saw an intruder in the home that night, a man who was wearing a COVID-style face mask and who she described as having bushy eyebrows.
Approximately six weeks after the murders, an arrest.
The suspect, 28-year-old Brian Kohlberger, a graduate student at nearby Washington State University, getting his PhD in criminology.
He was taken into custody back at his family home in Pennsylvania in the Poconos and charged with all four murders.
In our earlier episodes, we went through the arrest, Koberger's past, his disturbing online writings, the prosecution and defense cases, and much more.
Before we get to your questions, we begin with where the trial stands as of now in February 2024.
We do not expect this trial to happen anytime soon, and it might not even happen in Idaho where the crimes took place.
On January 31st, Kohlberger's lawyers filed a change of venue request, arguing the quote, extensive inflammatory pretrial publicity, end quote, could damage their clients' chances of a fair trial.
The request says that a quote fair and impartial jury cannot be found in Leytaw County due to the area not having a large enough population center to avoid bias in the community.
At a motions hearing the week before, Leytaw County prosecutor Bill Thompson pushed back on the notion that the venue must be changed.
He said the case was everywhere, meaning a change of venue wouldn't have any effect.
He argued that they owed it to the people in that county to at least attempt to seat a jury here first, as he put it.
At that hearing, we got a clue about when the trial might take place.
The prosecutors would like it to begin this summer, summer of 2024.
So sometime around June when the university students are mostly no longer in town.
Kohlberger's public defender, Ann Taylor, however, said that timeline was not realistic in any way.
She said if the venue does not change, she will be pushing for a start date of summer 2025.
So for now we wait, although we do have one noteworthy date.
On June 25th, 2024, famed journalist and author Howard Bloom's new book on Kohlberger and this quadruple murder will be released by HarperCollins.
It's called When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders.
Bloom's reporting on this story for Air Mail News has been fantastic.
His writing captivating.
We used it as part of our five-part series back in December.
And from what I know about the book, he has much more new reporting coming out.
And when the book hits, we will have Bloom on to talk about it all.
But now we want to get to your questions.
One of the most asked questions that we received was about the biggest development in the case, which happened after we aired the series.
On December 28th, almost exactly one year to the day that police arrested Kohlberger, University of Idaho officials demolished the house at 1122 King Road where the murders took place.
The demolition began early in the morning and was completed within two hours.
Police were on hand to monitor the process.
University president Scott Green said, quote, it's time for the house's removal and to allow the collective healing of our community to continue.
But before the trial, what if the jury wants to see the house themselves?
He also noted that both the prosecution and the defense were given access to the house, which they did take the university up on, and that neither side requested that the home be retained.
Last month in episode 695 on the Megan Kelly show, I talked to Nancy Grace about this decision.
I can't believe they did this.
I can't believe that the interest of the beautification of the campus outweighed the interest of justice.
Now, I think that's a major mistake because very often it's alleged police wrongdoing, whether it's some sort of misconduct or the gathering of evidence.
I think it's really important that the jury be able to see what happened and then combine it as an overlay with whatever was on the body camps.
So they know that there was no police wrongdoing, no planting of evidence, so to speak.
I would like them to see the room where that knife sheath was found bearing Brian Koberger's DNA in the snap.
Two of the victims' families were vehemently opposed to the demolition and did object.
The loved ones of Kaylee Gonsalves and Xana Cernodle speaking out before the house was torn down, quote, there may be additional discovery by either party that prompts one side or the other to go back to the scene of the crime.
That was from the Gonsalves family in a statement.
Quote, jurors are notoriously unpredictable and they tend to make decisions on a variety of facts and circumstances.
It would be foolish of us to try and foresee what they will want or need to make a just verdict in this case, end quote.
One family was supportive of the demolition, Ethan Chapins.
He was a triplet and both of his siblings still attend the University of Idaho.
Can you imagine them having to go buy the house?
His parents said getting rid of this house was for the good of the university and for the community of Moscow.
Many of you wrote in to ask also about the DNA evidence.
Remember, as far as we know, the police found just a single tiny sample of touch DNA, which is not the best form of DNA.
They found it on the knife sheath found next to one of the victims and were able to match that touch DNA to Kohlberger using something called Investigative Genetic Genealogy, or IgG.
They traced the DNA by matching it to someone in the Kohlberger family, then zeroed in on Brian Kohlberger after realizing that it likely came from a relative of a man named Michael Kohlberger, Brian's dad, who cops then obtained DNA from.
Actually, they went through his garbage, which is legal, and figured out that there was some sort of a match.
They actually at that point could tell that Michael's son was a match to the touch DNA.
One viewer, Bill, asked us over email, how did Brian leave no DNA at the crime scene?
Not one of his hairs, not any of his saliva or blood?
It's a good question.
It was just one dot of touch DNA on the knife sheath snap.
That's it?
In a crime this gruesome and bloody?
We're wondering the same thing.
Scott, another viewer, added, given the reports that Kayleigh Gonzalves appeared to have fought back during the attack, he writes, quote, there must be some DNA under fingernails.
Where is it?
If she didn't scratch him, did she pull his hair?
There should be hair strands.
If she didn't pull his hair, did she punch him?
There should be a DNA transfer onto the knuckles of her hand.
I just don't see any way, he says, that someone could actively resist in such a way that there would not be any DNA of the perpetrator.
Others asked about the apparent lack of DNA in Kohlberger's car, Brian Kohlberger's car, while some emailed wondering about reports that DNA from other males had been found at or around the scene of the crime.
We're going to take these questions one by one.
First, we should clarify that the police at this point are no longer relying on just the genetic genealogy match from Kohlberger's father.
As soon as Brian Kohlberger was arrested, his cheek was swabbed, and that DNA sample was tested against the touch DNA on the knife sheath, according to the police affidavit.
The police adding, it is no longer a question that it was Brian Kohlberger's touch DNA on that knife sheath.
As for Bill's questions about the DNA at the crime scene, that is a mystery.
As far as what's been reported, there was no other DNA of Brian Kohlberger's found at the scene or on any of the bodies.
I know it's hard to believe.
Maybe there is, and they just haven't told us.
The prosecutors might have more, but so far, neither the prosecution nor the defense is saying there's anything more than this touch DNA.
This is going to be a big question at trial, but all reports we have seen so far point to the DNA on the knife sheath as being the prime, and it appears for now the only evidence that will be presented to the jury when it comes to DNA.
Remember, it's believed that the killer, Kohlberger allegedly, wore protective clothing, a mask, and probably almost certainly gloves.
Then there's the question about the lack of DNA in Kohlberger's car.
That one has a bit more of an explanation.
Kohlberger was arrested more than six weeks after the murders took place.
He drove that car across the country with his father, Michael, going home for Christmas break one month after the murders.
While in Pennsylvania, reports are he was seen getting the car cleaned, including one report saying he had used bleach.
All of this is believed to have happened while cops had their eye on Kohlberger, but before they could get their hands on the car itself.
It's possible that the cops went and retrieved some clues or discovered some evidence from the facility where Kohlberger cleaned the car, like after he left.
But if they did that, it hasn't been made public.
If they did not do that, then it appears to be the case that they watched him clean the car, potentially destroying evidence, and did zero about it.
The car is in police custody now, and they may have found DNA evidence that has not been publicly disclosed.
They're definitely ripping that car apart.
We doubt it, however, because the defense is saying publicly that the police found no DNA in the car.
The question about the other male DNA found at and around the house is an intriguing one.
All right, this is one of the other questions, as I mentioned.
In a June 23 filing, one of Kohlberger's defense attorneys, Jay Weston Logsden, wrote about the existence of other male DNA found at the scene.
Now, keep in mind, this is a defense lawyer.
Here's how he described things.
Quote, by December 17th, 2022, lab analysts were aware of two additional males DNA within the house where the deceased were located and another unknown male DNA on a glove found outside the residence on November 20th, 2022.
To this date, the defense is unaware of what sort of testing, if any, was conducted on these samples other than the STR DNA profiles.
Further, these three separate and distinct male DNA profiles were not identified through CODIS, leading to the conclusion that the profiles do not belong to Mr. Kohlberger, end quote.
CODIS is the Combined DNA Index System, which is a national DNA database maintained by the FBI.
If you're a criminal and they've tested you, you're probably in there.
The defense is claiming the other male DNA samples were not ever identified and therefore do not belong to their clients.
So who are these other males?
You can bet the defense is going to make something of this at trial.
Why didn't you investigate?
Could that have been a suspect?
We don't know who these other males are.
Other than to say the police, the FBI, the prosecutors, they obviously believe they're not related and that they have the right man under arrest, the sole killer in this gruesome crime.
Okay, back to that same filing and defense attorney logs in.
Quote, there is no connection between Mr. Kohlberger and the victims.
There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohlberger's apartment, office, home, or vehicle.
In essence, through the lack of disclosure and their motion to protect the genetic genealogy investigation, the state, this is again, the defense lawyer claiming this, is hiding its entire case, end quote.
He goes on from there.
The state apparently thinks that they need not explain how they came to think that it was Mr. Kohlberger's DNA on the sheath.
Presumably, the defense is expected to accept at face value that the sheath had touched DNA, just waiting for testing by all the FBI's myriad resources.
Hidden Genetic Genealogy Clues 00:04:26
Additionally, the defense is to guess whether the state focused its investigation on Mr. Kohlberger via a bizarrely complex DNA tree experiment, end quote.
You can see what they're doing here, right?
Planning doubts.
What's genetic genealogy?
Is it reliable?
Why can't we get more info?
We need to know more.
This whole thing stinks.
The defense continues.
The state appears to be trying to hide its original domino such that Kohlberger cannot discover why he was targeted.
Mr. Kohlberger has the right to discover and question the investigation that led to him.
End quote.
Okay, so you can now see the defense is opening a very interesting line of attack.
They are implying the police may have planted the DNA on the knife sheath, put thereby, as they write, quote, someone else during the investigation.
We also get an indication about the way they plan to knock down the entire concept of investigative genetic genealogy, describing it as a, quote, bizarrely complex DNA tree experiment.
They seem to want to argue that if that first domino in the trail to Kohlberger was not reliable or was the product of junk science, all evidence resulting from that domino would be rendered inadmissible, quote, fruit of the poisonous tree.
That's what we used to call it in criminal procedure.
And if the tree is poisonous and can't be allowed in evidence, neither can its fruit.
That's how they'll try to get out the DNA swab of Kohlberger's cheek, fruit of the poisonous tree.
For context, here's a bit from my interview with Cece Moore.
She is the expert on the practice of IgG, and she was on the show in January of last year and episode 470.
Watch how she breaks down the way this works.
It's used all the time these days.
The way she and her team have been able to make hundreds of successful IDs of violent criminals.
So we get the unknown individual's DNA from the crime scene.
It might be semen, blood, saliva, even touch DNA.
So it goes to a private lab where it is analyzed.
And just like they would analyze it at, say, ancestry DNA or 23andMe, we need it to be compatible with those profiles because that's the type of profiles we're going to compare against.
And then it goes to our bioinformaticists, our scientists.
Now, because these are degraded, mixed, contaminated samples, these are not like if you spit in the tube and you have this perfect DNA sample.
These are non-optimal samples.
And so we need something called bioinformatics that work with that degraded DNA to try to repair it.
Upload it to GEDmatch and or family tree DNA.
It's compared against all the people there that are opted into law enforcement matching.
And we get a list of matches.
And we can predict what the likely relationships are based on how much DNA someone is sharing with that unknown person.
You see, so they get a match maybe to somebody in the Kohlberger family.
We can tell you this touch DNA relates to somebody in the Kohlberger family who gave their DNA to one of these services.
But, you know, Brian Kohlberger's not in there.
Maybe not even Michael Kohlberger.
We don't know who it is.
And then somebody like Cece Moore starts pulling wedding announcements and funeral announcements and family histories and anything she can get her hands on to try to zero in on which Kohlberger.
What does that, what does the family tree look like?
And how can I follow the tree down to the most likely person who's got a connection to Idaho?
It's a very complex and fascinating means of crime detection.
She's been doing it for some time now and she's been solving tons of cases.
So they got close enough to realize we should check out the DNA of Michael Kohlberger, the dad.
They legally got his garbage and figured out from that this guy, Michael Kohlberger, is the father of our suspect.
He's only got one son, hence Brian.
Now they had other evidence that led to Brian.
It's not all based on this touch DNA, but it would be a huge win if the defense can get the touch DNA thrown out.
Huge.
So we will see eventually what the prosecution has exactly when it comes to DNA.
Is it just the touch?
Is it more?
And ultimately, whether it is admissible.
Strange Stories and 911 Calls 00:08:57
For whatever it's worth, our lawyers, our legal experts we've talked to on the show, believe it will be admitted, notwithstanding these objections to IgG, but one of the many things we just don't know yet.
When we come back, a look at some of your questions related to the six students at the center of the case and how some early language by the cops may have opened up a rabbit hole for the internet that made the speculation about this case run wild.
We'll be right back.
One of the commentators on our YouTube channel wanted to know more about the roommates who survived.
I am with you, me too.
Bethany Funk and Dylan Mortensen.
These are the two women who were not attacked and survived the evening.
He writes, quote, there is something not right with the roommates calling friends before 911 when they discovered the scene.
Yeah, I agree.
Something's strange about that.
Others asked about the possibility of texts between the two surviving roommates during the murders, or at least before the 911 call that was placed at noon the next day.
I mean, that day, but later, you know, several hours after the 4 a.m. murders.
Here's what we know.
The affidavit makes very clear that Dylan Mortensen encountered someone during, we believe right after the murders.
As a reminder, here's what we learned.
And the initials DM refer to Dylan.
Quote, this is from the affidavit.
DM stated she originally went to sleep in her bedroom on the southeast side of the second floor.
DM stated she was awoken at approximately 4 a.m. by what she stated sounded like Gonsalves playing with her dog in one of the upstairs bedrooms, which were located on the third floor.
A short time later, DM said she heard who she thought was Gonsalves saying something to the effect of, there's someone here.
DM stated she looked out of her bedroom but did not see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house.
DM stated she opened her door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Xana Kernodle's room.
DM then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of, it's okay, I'm going to help you.
DM stated she opened her door for the third time after she heard the crying and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person's mouth and nose walking towards her.
DM described the figure as 5'10 inches or taller, male, not very muscular, but athletically built with bushy eyebrows.
The male walked past DM as she stood in a quote frozen shock phase.
The male walked toward the back sliding glass door.
DM locked herself in her room after seeing the male, end quote.
There's more, of course, in the affidavit, but why the roommates waited until nearly noon to call the police remains a complete mystery.
And it's also true, as has been reported, that it was a friend who called the cops, a friend who was at the house because they had been called by the surviving roommates before the roommates called the police themselves.
All right, so DM, Dylan, was allegedly in a frozen shock phase until the next day.
And then what happened?
Did she come out and see the bodies?
Did she just call a friend immediately?
And then the friend came over and saw the bodies and called 911.
Why don't we know this chronology?
Why wouldn't the police make this clear?
There's something strange about the whole story and what's been disclosed.
We don't know what the truth is behind all of this, but we do expect both of those roommates to be called to the stand at trial.
That will be absolutely critical and probably one of the most watched moments of this entire thing.
The question of whether the surviving roommates were texting one another during the murders, that's actually very interesting.
Or maybe the next morning before or while they were discovering the crime scene.
Howard Bloom reported that Kaylee Gonsalves' father, Steve, heard through a source that this question about possible texts between these two came up in the grand jury proceedings.
But we don't know whether that's true.
We don't know whether it did in fact come up at the grand jury and we don't know whether in fact there was texting.
The police certainly do have their cell phone records and if there were texts, we're going to know, but we have to wait till the trial.
Then there are some questions from YouTube commenters that we can put into a category of, well, we'll call it extreme skepticism.
One person asked about reports that the quote house was regarded as a drug house throughout the campus or the fact that there were group chats that knew something happened there well before they even called it in end quote.
Others asked about Chapin's fraternity and the rumors that there was a potential fight there that night that may have been connected to the murder somehow.
There's no evidence of that, no evidence of a fight at the fraternity, at least not right now.
It appears that those are just unsubstantiated rumors.
Ethan's former fraternity brothers spoke out in November about him to KTVB in Idaho.
Watch here.
Coolest guy you'll ever meet.
That's about it right there.
He was a really big, funny, happy guy.
When someone would walk in the room, like not just me, anybody, he would welcome you into the room.
He was always very kind in everything that he did.
He always would call me Gussy Gus in his little raspy voice, emotionally always there for people.
These guys at Sigma Chi dealing with a tragedy they never foresaw, I'm sure, when they entered the fraternity and campus.
The questions about the shadiness of this house on King Road where the murders took place, as some described it, or even questions that we received about whether a specific roommate may have been the intended victim, all of that, we believe, can be traced back to the way the cops originally talked about this crime.
From the very start, the police described the killings as, quote, targeted.
Based on details of the scene, we believe this was an isolated, targeted attack on our victims.
Even the mayor described it that way in this interview just days after the murders with Good Morning America.
I think from the evidence that exists on site, the conclusion was fairly straightforward that this was targeted, isolated, doesn't pertain to any other location or any other individuals in the city.
Very strange.
How did they know that?
On what were they basing that?
They said nothing more.
This targeted language continued for weeks.
One state police spokesperson told the Daily Mail, it's possible all four victims could have been targeted by the killer.
Prosecutor Bill Thompson told a local news outlet, quote, investigators believe that this attack was intended for a specific person, end quote.
Why did they keep saying that over and over and over?
Moscow police captain Roger Lanier said, quote, we've told the public very clearly from the beginning that we believe it was a targeted attack.
To be honest, you're going to have to trust us on that at this point because we're not going to release why we think that, end quote.
And indeed, they didn't.
But by early December, the tune changed.
Moscow police put out a statement attempting to clarify a miscommunication saying, quote, detectives do not currently know if the residents or any occupants were specifically targeted, but continue to investigate.
Come on.
Come on.
With no acknowledgement of the number of times you've said that and why, no explanation of why.
I get that they don't want to undermine the case at trial, but this is just too glaring.
I mean, what does this language even mean targeted or specifically targeted?
The confusing mixed messages in the early weeks of the case led to intrigue among many, including true crime watchers.
And undoubtedly, many of the theories that have emerged and continue to percolate online are due to this very unclear framing by the cops from the outset.
Did he know them?
Did he want to be with them?
Did he post on their social media?
All these questions, some of which we've addressed in the earlier episodes.
Meantime, we know the house on King Road was a known party spot.
And according to Howard Bloom's reporting, the neighborhood where the house was located was known to be an area where drug dealing did take place.
Okay, what about Kohlberger's family and the mystery around the autopsies?
That's next.
Multiple People and Sharp Force Wounds 00:13:21
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One of our listeners wanted to know why we did not mention that one of Kohlberger's sisters, upon hearing about the murders in the town adjacent to where her brother was getting a graduate degree, immediately wondered if he was the guy.
What caused his sister to think that, wrote in our listener.
Another wrote in, if Kohlberger's sisters were fired simply by association, that's terrible.
I'd like to think they'd be that much more of a counselor because they had had to see or deal with Kohlberger and his struggles and demons.
Look, to that latter point, it does feel like guilt by association, but I don't know.
The one sister is a therapist, and I can see how it might be tough for someone, let's say the victim of domestic violence, to keep going for therapy from a woman whose face and name just reminds you of one of the most violent, gruesome crimes in recent memory.
The whole thing is fraught.
It's not fair, but it's fraught.
News Nation did report that both sisters were fired from their jobs shortly after Kohlberger's arrest.
Watch.
I have now learned that Kohlberger's two sisters have both lost their jobs since the murders and were let go because of their relationship with their brother, Brian Kohlberger.
Koberger's older sister was a school counselor, and we know his younger sister at one point at least was working as an actress.
Both of Kohlberger's parents are retired, and I'm told the family is in very, very bad shape financially right now, especially because the sisters are now unemployed.
On the first point about Kohlberger's sister suspecting her brother, that first question that was raised, it was in fact reported by NBC's Dateline.
That was the only outlet that had this info.
They had a source who told them Kohlberger's sisters did wonder whether it was their brother who had something to do with those murders in Idaho.
Oh, watch.
According to our source, investigators learned the following.
One of Brian's two older sisters home for the holidays brought up an uncomfortable topic.
The sister had noticed Brian had been wearing latex gloves.
She thought it odd.
And at some point, the sister, quite loudly, pointed out that at the time of the murders in Moscow, Brian had lived just a few miles away in Pullman, and that Brian drove a white Vellantra, a car that law enforcement across the nation was looking for.
Add that to the gloves.
And the sister said she thought the Kohlberger family should consider that Brian might have killed the four students in Moscow.
I mean, imagine being this sister, knowing about these horrific crimes, knowing that your brother, who, by all accounts, was a very, I mean, odd, disturbed guy, lived right there, has the same kind of car that they're looking for, and now he's back at home wearing latex gloves throughout the house.
I'm sure she did suspect him.
And there's probably some willful blindness by a family member to the harsh realities, but somehow it may have penetrated even that.
I mean, Dateline did report that this sister went on to search his vehicle herself for potential evidence, but did not find any.
They also reported that Kohlberger's father defended his son at the time.
But did Michael Kohlberger suspect his son?
Remember, it was the dad Michael who flew to Washington State to accompany Brian on the lengthy cross-country trip back to the Poconos in Pennsylvania, just days before his arrest and about a month after the murders.
And in a bizarre twist, we actually get to see the father and son on this road trip, not once but twice in police body cam footage taken during traffic stops in Indiana along the route.
We brought you some of this in episode two, but when you start to really examine the stops while thinking about whether Michael suspected Brian of the crime, it does cast a bit of a new light on what we're witnessing here.
Take a look at this part of the conversation with the police officer.
What did you say about some SWAT team thing?
You know what?
Interesting.
Well, it's horrifying.
It's hard to make out everything that's said, but Michael keeps talking about a scary crime scene back where their road trip started.
Not the quadruple murder case in Idaho, but a SWAT standoff that turned deadly in Washington state more recently.
On December 15th, just slightly more than a month after the Idaho murders, a man was killed on the WSU campus during a standoff with cops.
On the evening of December 14th at approximately 8.30 p.m., police officers responded to a report of a weapon offense.
According to the initial police news release, a man in his 30s was threatening to kill his roommates.
Now, the roommates were safely removed, but while Pullman, Washington police officers attempted to speak with the man making the threats, he barricaded himself inside the apartment.
Crisis negotiators and SWAT personnel had to respond to the scene.
According to the police, quote, after unsuccessful negotiations, escalating behavior, and continued danger to the public and officers, the male was shot, end quote.
This happened at 4.22 a.m.
That man died at the scene.
Now, the man turned out to be 36-year-old Brent Kopaka, a Purple Heart recipient who, according to his friend, was suffering from mental illness after a possible traumatic brain injury from his time in Afghanistan.
It's a sad and a strange story, but if you Google Brent Kopaka and Brian Kohlberger, you could wind up down a rabbit hole for days on the internet.
And while they lived near each other and have the same initials, there appears to be no connection between these two men, except that traffic stop, sort of, where Michael keeps bringing it up while sitting next to his son, Brian.
He seems uneasy.
Maybe he's thinking of the criminology student he raised and the crimes in close proximity to where his son resided.
Maybe even hoping that the dead man may have been responsible for that quadruple murder.
Certainly not his son.
Finally, we got several questions from our audience about the coroner's comments in this case and the autopsies.
Some strange statements from her.
A lack of information or unclear information when it comes to the bodies.
Now, Kathy Mobbitt is the Leytaw County coroner, and she has been in this position for 16 years.
Shortly after the murders, she spoke out to several news outlets.
You don't often see that with the coroners, but here she is with NBC News four days after the victims were found.
It's pretty traumatic when there's four dead college students who have been stabbed to death in one location.
And to local news outlet, KREM.
Well, there was a lot of blood.
It was, yeah, it was, it was a very sad scene.
I don't know, like, when do you, you just don't see the coroner speaking out every day in the wake of these murders.
Usually they leave it to a police spokesperson.
It's a little strange, but also, watch how she talks about the murder weapon.
You're ruling all four deaths, homicides?
Yes.
Okay.
And can you give us a narrative?
Yeah.
I believe that the press release was that they were from a sharp object.
So.
Systems.
Yeah, I will know more after the autopsies tomorrow.
She's citing a press release?
I mean, okay, it might just be a person with very little media training, but then why would she be out there?
Why did they put her out there?
But her other actions drew some backlash from the family themselves.
The lawyer for the Gonsalves family said that Mobbitt had made, quote, personal phone calls to some of the family and released a lot of information that investigators did not know about, end quote.
Steve Gonsalves, Kaylee's father, told Fox News that Mobbitt was releasing an inappropriate amount of information to the families, like the specific injuries to the students done through personal phone calls to the families, he said.
Again, I haven't heard of that, where the coroner is interacting directly with the families about the specific injuries as opposed to the police or the detective running herd on the investigation.
Of course, this information has largely stayed out of the press.
We have heard some details, like Kaylee's parents telling CBS in September what Mobbitt said about how Kaylee and Maddie were found.
The bed was up against the wall.
The headboard was touching the wall and the left side of the bed was touching the wall.
And we believe that Maddie was on the outside and Kaylee was on the inside.
According to Coroner Mabbitt, the killer's first victim was Maddie, says Steve.
And then from Maddie, he moved on to your daughter.
You believe she had awakened at that point?
Yes.
Yeah, there's evidence to show that she awakened and tried to get out of that situation.
The way the bed was set up is what she was trapped.
Some of the overall confusion likely came from how the four victims were described in the Kohlberger arrest affidavit and the inconsistencies.
All right, so let's walk through some of it.
Xanna Kernodle's injuries were described in the affidavit as being, quote, caused by an edged weapon.
What does that mean?
Like, why can't they say knife?
What does that even mean?
Of Kaylee and Maddie, they were, quote, visible stab wounds.
Is that a distinction between an edged weapon?
For Ethan Chapin, the section begins by saying he was, quote, deceased with wounds later determined, end quote.
And then there's a curious redaction before continuing, quote, caused by sharp force injuries.
What's that?
Even stranger in that affidavit, Ethan's section references a date for the autopsy report as December 15th, 2022.
And that's more than a month after the murders and also nearly a month after the initial autopsies were reported to have taken place.
What?
This confusing inclusion led some to question whether there had been a second, later autopsy.
We simply don't know.
We don't believe there was, but we don't know.
We also don't know the number of stab wounds on each victim.
And typically they would release that.
This is relevant to the timeline and, of course, the ferocity of the crime, which the prosecutors will want to introduce.
Remember, prosecutors will try to prove that Kohlberger committed these four murders in a short window of less than 20 minutes on two different floors of the house.
The defense is going to want to argue it's impossible.
And so even the defense may want to point out the number of stab wounds if it was high to try to say how could he possibly have done this?
There had to be multiple people.
Who were they?
Where are the connections?
All of that.
Now, these details are sure to come out at trial, but as we told you at the beginning, that trial is not yet on the horizon.
Until it is, we expect to get more.
There will be more leaks and so on.
But between now and then, we'll stay on it.
We'll bring you the latest on this shocking and just tragic case.
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