The Megyn Kelly Show - 20230130_racial-police-violence-spin-and-alex-murdaugh-on-t

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Jan. 30, 2023 - The Megyn Kelly Show

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20230130_racial-police-violence-spin-and-alex-murdaugh-on-t

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Police Racism and Systemic Lies 00:14:41
	Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
	Paul Pelosi, body cam footage, Dr. Jill Biden, she's a doctor, didn't you know?
	Just in case you hadn't heard that, she really wants you to know she is.
	But we're going to start today with the horrific videos that were released on Friday in the case of Tyree Nichols.
	I don't know, have you seen these tapes?
	Did you watch them?
	I watched them when they came out on Friday, and they are truly deeply disturbing.
	Tyree Nichols, from all accounts, was not somebody who was habitually or ever in his life in trouble with the law, according to his family.
	He had a four-year-old son.
	He worked for FedEx.
	He loved photography.
	This is even, it's hard to hear these things because they break your heart.
	You know, it's almost easier when it's somebody who is a career criminal who finds themselves on the wrong side of the law, and then you have a bad cop, and all the elements combine.
	No, this was not that.
	Everything we're hearing is that Tyree Nichols was an upstanding young man who loved photography, who loved nature, who had just been combining both photographing in a nearby park shortly before his encounter with police.
	And he was less than two minutes away from his home at the time of his encounter with the cops.
	The cops say they pulled him over because he was driving recklessly, though there's absolutely no proof of that.
	Tyree, as you probably know by now, was a black man.
	He was attacked by five cops who were also black.
	But the claim was that he was driving recklessly and thus he was pulled over to the side of the road.
	Again, even the police chief is saying no evidence of that, though it cannot be disproven either at this point.
	We don't know why.
	Frankly, he was pulled over.
	Things went south with the police from almost the first moment.
	I'll show you our first soundbite, which is the initial stop.
	And I will say at the outset that virtually all of the videos that capture this encounter between Tyree Nichols and the police are disturbing.
	Soundbite nine.
	Turn your ass around.
	All right, all right, all right.
	All right, hold on.
	Get on the fucking ground.
	Get on the ground.
	Okay, I'm gonna be the same.
	All right, I'm on the ground.
	Change you!
	Get him!
	Get off the ground!
	You guys are really doing a lot right now.
	Bro, lay down!
	I'm just trying to go home!
	If you don't lay down, I am out of the group.
	The video ends with him finally running from the officers who have tased him, who taser him as he's running.
	And it also appears that pepper spray or something else was used.
	There's a lot to get into in this case.
	A sixth officer has just been disciplined in all of this.
	We're not sure what the details are of that officer's role in all of this, but five cops are now charged with second-degree murder and have been fired from this force.
	As much of the nation saw protests over the weekend in response, we now know that Tyree's parents will be at the State of the Union per the invitation of the president.
	And this case says a lot.
	It says a lot about law enforcement and potentially more.
	The race hustlers are still out there saying that this is about race.
	Okay, they make everything about race this too, even when five cops attack and kill a man, all of whom share the same race.
	Larry Elder is our guest today.
	He's host of the Epoch Times TV, the Larry Elder Show.
	He joins me now.
	Larry, welcome back to the show.
	Great to have you.
	Megan, thank you so much for having me.
	I appreciate it.
	The thing about this stop, before we get to the race, you know, as you know, better than anybody, this is what they do.
	They try to inject race into everything, everything.
	Even if you're a black man, as you know, they'll say it's about race.
	But this video, I think the police chief nailed it.
	You know, it's shocking.
	It's horrifying.
	It lacks humanity.
	And you look at it and your first instinct as a normal person is not to try to racialize it, but to say, where's their humanity?
	What kind of a human can do this to another human?
	This, let's just stay with tape one, which I just showed.
	And for the listening audience, it shows that the cops are amped up right from the get-go about Tyree.
	I mean, right from the get-go.
	They immediately pull him over.
	They're yelling right away with guns drawn.
	Motherfucker, get out of the fucking car.
	The guy's saying, I didn't do anything.
	Get your ass down.
	Get on the effing ground.
	He says, I'm on the ground.
	He keeps telling him, I'm on the ground.
	And for the listening audience, you can see he is on the ground.
	It's like the police, it looks like they were looking for some sort of confrontation, Larry.
	Right.
	I mean, how much on the ground can you be when you're on the ground?
	Look, let's stipulate that this is horrible.
	Let's stipulate these cops got what they deserved.
	I haven't talked to a single person.
	I haven't talked to a single cop.
	I know a lot of them who says there's any way, shape, or form that this is justified.
	But let's stipulate to that.
	The question is, how do you turn this into race?
	As you pointed out, five of the cops are black.
	The police chief is black.
	And Michelle Obama weighed in.
	Barack Obama weighed in.
	So this is a painful reminder.
	Al Sharpen said something to the effect of just because they're all black doesn't mean it can't be racial.
	Van Jones said something very similar.
	A critical race theory law professor at Columbia named Kimberly Crenshaw said this is about structural racism that the police target communities of color.
	Hold the phone.
	If it doesn't matter what race the cop is, if a cop does something bad, it's still racial, then why in the world, Megan, are we out trying to diversify police force?
	Why do we have lines like want a police force that looks like the community?
	Apparently, it doesn't matter.
	Doesn't it say the goal should be good cops?
	And to raise another question about these cops, I don't think any of them had more than three years of experience.
	Wonder whether or not the Memphis Police was having manpower issues in part because of Black Lives Matter has so discredited the police.
	Nobody wants to join the force.
	People are retiring early.
	They're transferring to smaller, less confrontational police departments.
	Maybe just maybe Memphis lowered standards in order for diversity and because of all the problems caused by people capturing the police.
	Now, regarding what Crenshaw said, the police are targeting communities of color.
	Well, unfortunately, communities of color is where the crime is.
	And isn't that where you want the police officers?
	At 13% of the population, Blacks commit almost half of the homicides in the country.
	Almost all of the victims are also Black.
	In the 75 largest counties in America by population, Blacks account for 60% of the shootings and 60% of the robberies.
	That's why the cops are there.
	You want them to deploy their finite resources to West Palm Beach, to Beverly Hills, to Malibu.
	It doesn't make any sense.
	And let's have a little perspective here.
	Out of 61 million contacts with the police in 2020, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the police killed 1,000 people.
	That's 0.002%.
	Almost all of them were resisting arrests, usually with a gun or with a knife.
	It is rare for the police to kill anybody, let alone an unarmed person, let alone an unarmed black person.
	By the way, the last five years, the police have averaged killing 39% more unarmed whites.
	Can you name one?
	Of course not, because nobody cares if it's an unarmed white person.
	Van Jones doesn't come in.
	CNN doesn't come in.
	Joy Reed doesn't comment.
	Nobody gives a rip when it's an unarmed white person, even though the police kill more unarmed white people every year than they kill unarmed black people.
	But let's have a little bit of perspective, shall we?
	Yeah, well, that's not an abundance listening to the pundits this weekend who like to just pour gasoline on the fire.
	You know, I mean, there's so many people.
	It wasn't just Van Jones.
	And by the way, I don't know what's happening to Van Jones.
	It's like he used to be sort of a voice of reason sometimes on some of these controversies.
	And over the past, no, he wasn't.
	He never has been.
	Now, tell you something else, Megan.
	I interviewed a guy named Zach Kriegman, Isaac Kriegman.
	He used to be a data scientist with Thomson Reuters.
	His job was to do data, Harvard Law School, and he wrote a paper.
	Initially, he supported Black Lives Matter and then did a study and found out that because of the so-called Ferguson effect, some people now call it the George Floyd effect, people are pulling back.
	They're becoming more passive.
	He documented what he called excess deaths.
	In other words, deaths that otherwise would not have taken place had the police been engaging in their normal proactive policing.
	Thousands of them in just five cities alone.
	So it's not just a lie that the police are engaging in systemic racism.
	It's a lie that has real world consequences.
	I remember Mayor Rom Emmanuel of Chicago, he even said that because of the accusation false that the police were engaging in systemic racism after the death of a man named Laquan McDonald, the police had, quote, rolled themselves up into a fetal position, close quote.
	And as a result, homicides have gone up.
	And finally, getting back to what Professor Crenshaw said, it is a fact, unfortunately, that a young black man, young being defined as as young as 10, as old as the mid-30s, a young black man is 13 times more likely to be murdered than a young white man.
	Almost always the murderer is another young black man.
	That's why the police are there.
	That's why the cops are deployed in communities of color, Ms. Crenshaw.
	It wasn't just Kimberly Crenshaw, who's like the critical race theory guru.
	Plenty of others weighed in with similar sentiments.
	Here's just a sampling of some of it in SOT 16.
	But I think race is still on the table.
	When a culture of policing historically has treated those from different groups differently, even when the individuals are from that same group, that culture can still exist.
	That is part of the training that these officers receive, that black and brown equals danger.
	This comes at a time when the governor of Florida says no African-American AP classes when we have demagoguery around critical race theory.
	So it is nonsense that black and brown officers have not been part of the problem of systemic racism and policing.
	I'm about to educate some people right now.
	The vicious, brutal, unjustified extrajudicial killing of Tyree Nichols is as a result of a police system that is built on white supremacy.
	White supremacy underpins the policing and criminal justice system.
	There is a systemic reality of white supremacy that produces racist white cops and racial gatekeeping black and brown cops.
	Okay.
	And their representation is to represent white supremacy, not people of their own race.
	Got it, Larry.
	It's the system of white supremacy produces racist white cops and racial gatekeeping black and brown cops.
	That's what they were, racial gatekeeping black and brown cops.
	Megan, past the anvil, I've got a headache.
	Here are the facts.
	There is a Harvard economist named Roland Fryer.
	He happened to be black.
	He's from the inner city in Baltimore.
	He just knew because of these high-profile deaths, whether it's Michael Brown in Ferguson or Freddie Gray in Baltimore or Laquan McDonald in Chicago, the young man who was hurling the replica gun in Cleveland.
	He just knew the cops were murdering black people just because they were black.
	He did a study.
	He said the findings were the most shocking of my professional career.
	Not only were the police using deadly force against blacks because they were black, he found out that the police are more hesitant, more reluctant to pull the trigger on the black suspect than a white suspect.
	There was a long article, April 27, 2016 in the Washington Post going back over decades where they'd done these simulation shootings.
	And again, the cops were more hesitant, more reluctant to pull the trigger on a black suspect than a white suspect.
	If anything, white people have something to moan about because the police are slightly more likely to pull the trigger on them than a similarly situated black suspect.
	It is a lie.
	Again, the lie is not just a normal lie.
	You believe a lot of stupid stuff.
	So what?
	This lie is getting people killed because it's altering the behavior of the cops and it's altering the behavior of suspects, especially young black suspects.
	If you believe you get pulled over by a cop, this cop is likely to brutalize you.
	Why should you comply?
	And there's a through line with all of these deaths, Megan.
	And the through line is this.
	Virtually every single one of them would have been avoided had the suspect complied.
	Now, again, you're a young black man.
	You're listening to Michelle and Barack Obama, to Al Sharpton, to Van Jones.
	Why should you comply?
	After all, they're out to kill you.
	And as a result, something that would have been a low-level traffic stop turns into something very deadly.
	Except this poor guy.
	It does not look like we can say that happened in the case of Tyree Nichols.
	It looks like he was complying.
	They were accusing him of not complying.
	But as you point out, how much more can you lie down when you're already lying down?
	And then he ran.
	But do you agree?
	Like when that guy ran, who could blame him?
	They were beating the hell out of him already.
	The guy was running for his life.
	Right.
	As I said from the outset, there's no way, shape, or form you can justify this.
	You got five cops that are pretty big.
	This guy is a tall, skinny guy, and they beat him, they kick him, they pepper spray him, they grab him, they choke him, and he manages to get away and run away.
	How incompetent are these cops?
	They're like the keystone cops.
	Again, I think it goes back to whether or not they should have been cops in the first place.
Escalation, Lying, and Running Away 00:13:41
	And let's have some perspective on how often this happens.
	The Chicago police chief, 36-year career, she said she's never seen anything so egregious.
	So we know this is an aberration.
	I'm in LA where the biggest police scandal was Ramparts.
	There were 70 police officers that were involved.
	That was the scandal that provoked the movie called Training Day that Denzel Washington starred in.
	70 cops is a large number, absolutely, but it's also represented 1% of the LAPD.
	And again, this is obviously very rare, which is why we're talking about it.
	That's the thing is, like I said this on Friday before we saw the tapes.
	You've got 10 million arrests a year on average by law enforcement, 10 million.
	And we get one case here, one case there.
	You know, the Washington Post has been keeping this running tally of the number of unarmed black men shot and killed by police.
	It's 13, maybe 15 per year.
	Skeptic magazine pointing out in a really interesting poll a couple years ago, if you ask like somebody who considers themselves very liberal or extremely liberal, they think it's 10,000.
	10,000.
	The numbers are shockingly low given the number of encounters cops have with defendants out there on the streets.
	You said arrest.
	You're right.
	There's 10 million arrests.
	There are 61 million contacts or encounters.
	So it's even a smaller percentage of that.
	And you're right about that magazine.
	They found out that 50% of self-described, very liberal people thought the police killed 1,000 unarmed black men in 2019.
	8% thought they killed 10,000.
	And of the regular liberals, 39% thought they killed 1,000.
	5% thought they killed 10,000.
	According to the Washington Post database, 2019, there were 12.
	That's how off they were.
	That's why people go bonkers whenever something like this happens because they falsely assume it is not an apparation, but this is normal policing.
	It is not.
	And we should point out that even amongst those who are considered, quote, unarmed, there are real questions about whether those folks actually were unarmed.
	Some have taken a deeper dive and found that even the unarmed folks, in many cases, were driving a vehicle toward the police officer.
	Well, that's an armor.
	That's a weapon or had a gun in the glove compartment, but not necessarily with their finger on the trigger.
	I mean, all sort of these things that get discounted.
	That's right.
	Michael Brown was unarmed, but they found his DNA on the officer's gun, meaning he was trying to get the gun.
	You're quite right.
	Unarmed does not mean not dangerous.
	Yeah.
	So the media is bent on turning this into a race war.
	They want a race war.
	I mean, they push it at every turn.
	And they refuse to acknowledge statistics like the ones that we've been discussing.
	They just keep going back to lived experience and white supremacy.
	And it's internalized by black people too.
	And therefore, that's what you're seeing, as opposed to the study that you just pointed out by Roland Fryer.
	By the way, there was a fascinating documentary on him where they pointed out his Indian research assistant came to him and said, I'm embarrassed to tell you what we found.
	Like I'm nervous to tell you what we found.
	Like I can't, I don't feel comfortable saying he fired his whole staff because he did not like the results, hired a bunch of researchers.
	Oops, they came up with the same conclusion.
	Right.
	And then Harvard decided to fire him.
	They haven't been able to do that entirely, but yeah, they tried to ruin his life.
	In any event, so they don't want to talk about those stats.
	They just want to talk about internalized white supremacy.
	It just must be.
	It has to be.
	And Bill Maher was raising a good question this past weekend on his show saying this knee-jerk reaction to racialize everything, this, the two mass shootings, two of the mass shootings that happened last week in California with Asian men killing members of an Asian American community.
	We had Chuck Schumer.
	We had other lawmakers go right to the bigotry.
	This is bigotry.
	What?
	Right?
	And it's preventing us from taking a good hard look at what is actually behind these incidents.
	Well, you're right.
	And take the weekend before last in Chicago.
	30 people shot, seven fatally.
	Almost all of the victims and the perks were black.
	And the real question is why?
	And the answer is lack of fathers in the home that the left does not want to talk about.
	And all too often, those of us who are conservatives don't want to talk about it.
	The fact is that 70% of black kids enter the world without a father married to the mother in the home.
	And Barack Obama said, you and I talked about this before, Megan.
	Barack Obama said a kid raised without a father is five times more likely to be poor and can commit crime, nine times more likely to drop out of school and 20 times more likely to end up in jail.
	Now, the question is, how have we gone from having 25% of young black men entering the world without a father married to their mother back in 1965, when there was clearly more racism than now, to 70% today?
	And I would argue it's the welfare state.
	What we've done is we've incentivized women to marry the government.
	and we've incentivized men to abandon their financial and moral responsibility and we're not having a conversation about that.
	And that's that you're arguing is behind the crime rate and the academic failures that we've seen in some of these communities.
	And we've talked at length on our show before about studies that sort of talk about what's the approach to education in some of these communities, you know, and how can we change attitudes there?
	Well, you get called a racist.
	If you even take a hard look at that, like what's the attitude in terms of learning and excelling and getting straight A's and all that.
	None of that can be touched, Larry.
	We just have to blame it on white supremacy and move on.
	More critical race theory.
	That's what we need.
	You heard the lady say it.
	Right.
	And we're spending more money now on education than ever before.
	In fact, America, K through 12, spends more money on education than any other industrialized country in the world, except for Switzerland and Lumbrexmore.
	What's it called?
	Lumbrexburg?
	Where the conceder is?
	What's it called?
	Luxembourg.
	Yeah, thank you.
	Baltimore has 13 public high schools, Megan, 13 where 0% of the kids can do math at grade level.
	Another half a dozen were only 6%.
	Nationwide, according to the National Report Card of Black eighth graders, these are 13-year-old kids.
	85% of them are neither math nor reading proficient.
	Half of them haven't even reached basic reading proficiency.
	Why are we talking about that?
	And you're talking about why black people can't compete in a digital world.
	Start there.
	It's incredible.
	Like to hear that, it's Karen Finney, a Democratic strategist in that one soundbite, say anti-Black racism is everywhere.
	We know that.
	This is part of the training these officers receive that black and brown people equals danger.
	We see it.
	We have to acknowledge this comes at a time when the governor of Florida says no African-American AP classes, when we have demagoguery around critical race theory.
	This woman actually thinks more critical race theory classes or African-American AP classes is the solution to this problem.
	You know, I've seen graphs of how much homework a black kid does every night versus how much a Hispanic kid does versus a white kid versus an Asian kid, and it's night and day.
	If you don't have somebody in your home that will make sure you've done your homework, make sure you've gone to bed on time, make sure you've been fed, clothed, and housed, and have sent to school with an attitude ready to learn, you are in very, very serious trouble.
	And we're not having that conversation.
	Take a city like Baltimore where Freddie Gray died in police custody.
	He was in the band and apparently had his neck stabbed.
	The mayor was black.
	The police chief was black.
	The number two on the police department was black.
	All the city council Democrat, majority black.
	The state attorney who brought the charges against six officers was black.
	Three of the six officers were black.
	A judge before whom two of them tried their cases was black.
	The attorney general at the time, black.
	The superintendent of schools in Baltimore, black.
	The county superintendent, black.
	And the president of the United States at the time was black.
	All these people running everything black.
	And I'm reminded of that comment that Wanda Sykes made, that comedian.
	She said, how are you going to complain about the man when you are the man?
	Knock it off.
	Blacks are running almost all these major cities.
	Many of them are in charge of our police departments, as is in Chicago, both the mayor and the head of the police department, black.
	And we're still talking about structural systemic racism.
	Knock it off.
	So that's Memphis.
	Memphis has, where this happened, a black majority police force.
	Black people make up 65% of the population there.
	The black, the police chief is black, C.J. Davis, and a woman.
	I have to say, over 35 years of experience in law enforcement, I met her.
	I interviewed her, Larry, when I was at NBC.
	My own personal impression is very impressive woman.
	I mean, she was kind of badass when I talked to her.
	I really liked her.
	And she was in North Carolina in that region when I was talking to her.
	We had a great talk and she was talking about how when she's in her plain clothes and she's walking through a department store, sometimes she gets followed, right?
	That's a place where we women get followed more than black, white, whatever, because they think we're going to steal.
	Like we're the ones who take the merchandise.
	And I asked her whether she'd ever been followed while she was in there.
	And she goes, absolutely, many times.
	And I said, have you ever wanted to turn around to say to the person following you, ma'am, you don't need to worry about somebody stealing from you today because I'm here and I'm the chief of police, right?
	She's like, of course, you know, I'd love to do it.
	But I pulled a soundbite of her because I know that C.J. Davis was definitely very focused in North Carolina, and I presume when she moved to Memphis, on training officers in terms of de-escalation.
	That's an important thing, you know, whether you're left or right.
	And you hear it a lot from the left, de-escalation.
	These officers here were guilty of exactly the opposite.
	They were the escalators.
	The defendant wasn't escalating anything.
	He was like, guys, you're being really rough.
	Whoa, right than get go.
	But here's a soundbite from C.J. Davis, the now police chief of Memphis, back in 2017 when I talked to her about de-escalation.
	The National Center for Women in Policing found that the average male officer is eight and a half times more likely to have an excessive force complaint against him than a woman.
	Why do you think that is?
	I believe it.
	Why?
	De-escalating someone who is six foot seven that's already drunk.
	And you think I'm getting ready to break my nails fighting him?
	We've had a lot of practice on how to de-escalate situations.
	There is a side to being a woman, right?
	You're able to really reach people because you have so many experiences.
	You are a born nurturer.
	There were four female black police chiefs in the quadrangle area at the time, and it was kind of unprecedented.
	But in any event, Larry, I think I don't know where you go because, you know, with all due respect to CJ Davis.
	Can I comment on what she said, what she said about the police?
	But let me just finish the point I was going to make.
	It's like, she is diverse in every way, right?
	It's not that usual to see a female police chief.
	She is black in a majority black community.
	The officers are black.
	She prioritizes de-escalation.
	I know that, you know, and we looked at her background.
	So I don't know what you do.
	Even if you take race out of it, what are we left with?
	We got somebody who prizes de-escalation, who's got a history of doing it.
	You've got a woman in there who the women historically cops are less likely to have the confrontation.
	So she's the one training these guys.
	Like, what else are we supposed to do?
	Well, again, these are bad cops.
	I'd love to be interested in hearing what their background is, whether or not they waived a low-level offense or maybe a drug offense that they otherwise would not have waived in order to get people on the police force because of low manpower.
	I suspect they never would have been cops had the standards not been lowered.
	So regarding what she said about female cops, I have a lot of friends who are cops, as I mentioned, and they tell me this.
	When you are paired with a female and you're the bad guy, who do you go after?
	You go after the man because you feel you can take the smaller cop or the female cop because they feel that they're going to be easier to push around.
	It's just a fact that men who are paired with women often feel they are the target when a bad guy decides to become aggressive and not the female.
	I'm in Los Angeles.
	We've had back to back black police chiefs.
	The LAPD mirrors the racial demographic of the city.
	Yet whenever there's something that goes down, some of the activists yell and scream and talk about systemic racism.
	I don't know how much more you want.
	There's a city in LA called California called Rialto.
	It's 100,000 people.
	And demographically, it reflects the racial breakdown of California.
	The same percentage of Hispanics, of whites, of Asians, of blacks.
	And the police department was ordered to wear body cams and the cops didn't want to, but they did them for about a year.
	And here's the result.
	There were 90% fewer complaints against the police and 50% less use of force by the police.
	Not because the police changed their behavior.
	They've been monitored before.
	They had dash cans before.
	The civilians stopped lying, Megan.
	They knew where they were being taped.
	And it's a lie.
	It's a crime to say that you were brutalized by the police when in fact you were not.
	The civilians stopped lying.
	And as a result, they stopped resisting.
	And the cops did not have to use the kind of force they used in the past.
	So let's also tell civilians to comply.
	You won't die.
	And you won't have to lie to a police officer.
	There's also, it's a two-way street.
	Cops should be good cops.
	And our goal should not be diverse, police department.
	The goal should be good cops, irrespective of race, irrespective of gender.
	And you also ought to comply and stop lying on the police.
	Exactly.
	Because this would have been a situation that easily could have gone the other way had there not been videotape from the body cams, from the police cars, and from local surveillance.
	The cops could have easily, any cop who's going to do this to a civilian will lie and come out and say he was the aggressor.
	He attacked us.
	He didn't comply.
	And we can see for ourselves, thanks to the videotape, that's not true.
	He was not the aggressor.
	He was trying to comply.
	You guys turned animalistic on him.
	I mean, it was animalistic.
	There was no humanity in those tapes.
Demanding Doctors and Good Cops 00:07:06
	And Megan, this isn't interesting.
	They knew they were being taped and they did it anyway.
	I don't get it.
	Therefore, they were bad cops.
	There isn't a single cop I know that justifies the behavior of these cops.
	The people that hate bad cops the most are good cops because it makes them all look bad.
	They were bad cops.
	They knew they were being monitored.
	They couldn't subdue a skinny suspect after kicking and tasing and pepper spraying.
	The guy still got up and ran away.
	Again, how incompetent is that?
	That's exactly right.
	And then you hear them at the back half of the tapes say, oh, he tried to get my gun.
	It's like, okay, all right.
	How stupid do they think we are?
	You know, it's just justice will be done in this case, and we'll see who else is going to be charged because the paramedics stood around doing absolutely nothing while he was suffering far too long.
	The charges are not done.
	And as I say, there's now a sixth police officer who's in trouble.
	So we're going to continue to follow it.
	Larry stays with us on the other side of this break and I'll have some words on Dr. Jill Biden, among many other things.
	Stay with us too.
	Did you watch the football games yesterday?
	We watched and I did room for the Eagles a little bit because Doug loves them and he's from Philadelphia.
	And sorry, Giants fans, we weren't there and I had no choice.
	Anyway, I'm still Team Giants and I am as upset as you are about the Empire State Building.
	Why did they do that?
	Why?
	No, we're not.
	Now Doug thinks we're all on board.
	We're not on board.
	No, we're still fans of the blue.
	In any event, that's for another day.
	Well, I wasn't there.
	I watched it on TV, but you know who was there at that Eagles game?
	Dr. Jill Biden, our first lady.
	She was at the football game last night.
	Did you catch it?
	Dr. Jill likes us to call her doctor, no matter the setting, you see, because it clearly makes her feel important.
	How sad.
	You would think that a woman of her age and status would not need to hear an academic title repeated everywhere before her name is said in order to feel worthy.
	But she clearly does because she has it said everywhere.
	They've been pushing this from Team Biden, Joe Biden, and Jill Biden for years, for years now.
	In every press release, in every appearance they make, they make sure you refer to her as Dr. Jill Biden, even if she's not doing or saying anything at all.
	To the point that even the football announcers on CBS News know, we need to say it.
	If we're going to mention her, we've got to make sure we mention her properly at this testosterone-filled sporting event.
	Even the sports announcers know that's what you have to say.
	And let's face it, she's not a real doctor.
	We all know it.
	Real doctors go to college for four years and med school for another four and then internship and residency and fellowship.
	And then they take several boards and they have people's lives in their hands.
	That's who we know as doctor.
	When you say doctor, that's what we think of.
	Fake doctors like Dr. Jill, who insist everyone call them doctor all the time, live in academia for a few years after college and then run around trying to glob on to the respect and admiration we have for medical doctors.
	That's the truth.
	I am fine calling Dr. Jill Dr. Jill if she wants me to.
	I've done it when meeting her in person when I interviewed her and her husband at NBC, just like I have for any PhD who wants me to mention their title or whose academic achievement is relevant to our interview or their appearance on my show.
	But she's the first person I have met who actually wants to be called doctor everywhere and in any context.
	Now, I've got nothing against PhDs.
	My dad was a PhD in education like her.
	He taught PhD students.
	My dad hated it when people called him Dr. Kelly.
	He insisted that his students call him Professor Kelly.
	And he would never have wanted somebody outside of the university context to call him doctor or professor.
	She wants it everywhere.
	Whether you're interviewing her about her academic field, teaching or not.
	Why is that?
	Clearly, she has got an inferiority complex to the husband.
	She has said as much.
	That's why she even got her doctorate to begin with.
	She wanted to feel important.
	And now we all have to participate in this fiction that she's a doctor, as we understand that word.
	Whoopee Goldberg fell for it.
	She once said that she should be the surgeon general.
	So dumb.
	I'm a doctor too, Whoopee.
	I'm a doctor.
	I actually am a doctor.
	I'm a Juris Doctor, which I guarantee you was harder to get than her doctorate, though I have never in my life asked people to call me doctor.
	And any lawyer who ever did that would be mocked to high heaven.
	It's so typical of the left these days.
	We have to use the exact words that they tell us to, or we are being disrespectful.
	We have to engage in their fantasies about themselves, whether it's the men who are now women and the pronouns have to be said and words like field and rule of thumb have to be banned.
	And oh, just shut up.
	I'm not doing that.
	I'm not going to do any of that.
	But I will, when Dr. Jill Biden comes on this show, introduce her by her title of choice.
	However, I will judge her a little and think she's kind of needy in a way that's unbecoming.
	Back with me now, Larry Elder, host of Epoch Times is TV, the Larry Elder Show.
	I tweeted out about this during last night's game, Larry, and the leftists lost their ever-loving minds that I would question.
	She is a doctor.
	Well, you're a doctor, and I'm a doctor, too.
	We're all doctors because we have our Juris doctors.
	That's right.
	You and I are both Juris doctors.
	We could also demand that people call us doctors.
	But Mecca, it could be a lot worse.
	At least she does, in fact, have a doctor degree.
	Dr. Maya Angelou doesn't have a doctor's degree.
	Dr. J, no doctor's degree.
	At least she has one.
	Dr. J?
	What are you blowing my mind?
	At the end of the Bill Cosby show, the credits, it ran that was produced by Dr. Bill Cosby because he got a doctor degree in education.
	So there are other people that insist on being called doctors, even though you and I know that the term normally is applied to only medical doctors.
	I don't really care all that much about that.
	I'm more concerned about her husband's bad policies, about the borders, about inflation, about how we're no longer energy independent, about how we are allowing 5 million illegal aliens into the country since he's been in office.
	The crazy pullout of Afghanistan that inspired Putin might likely inform China, North Korea, and Iran.
	That concerns me a lot more than the fact that Joe Biden wants to be called doctor.
	Same.
	And the only reason I raise it is because I sent out a tweet, one little tweet, and they lost their minds.
	It's so fun aggravating them on Twitter.
	They're so easy to control.
	And what does it say about them?
	It's their obsession, right, with identity, with empowering women.
	I've got news for you.
	This doesn't empower anybody.
	This makes her look small, not big.
	This is not, this empowers nobody.
	She can be, she's the, she's the first lady.
	We don't, she doesn't need an extra title at this point.
	She never needed it, but she doesn't need any.
	You know what?
	And the stay-at-home moms out there don't need a stupid title either to be respected.
	Just be a good person.
	But that's the left these days, right?
	They're in love with academia.
	They think they can spend their whole lives there and never accomplish anything real and still warrant the same respect and adoration that we give to a medical doctor who saves a child's life.
Thomas Sowell and Identity Politics 00:10:11
	This is who they are.
	And this obsession with identity is pernicious.
	It's beyond this stupid thing.
	It goes back to the stuff we just talked about.
	It really does.
	And regarding the stuff we just talked about in identity politics, take the death of George Floyd, however you feel about the way Derek Chauvin treated him.
	And I believe that the charges and the convictions were just.
	There is zero evidence that Derek Chauvin acted the way he did because of George Floyd's race.
	The lead prosecutor was a black man.
	And in his opening statement, he took pains to say that the police in general were not on trial.
	The Minneapolis PD in general was not on trial.
	This individual was on trial.
	And Derek Schauman was never charged with a hate crime.
	We had four months of protest in the streets.
	2,000 officers wounded.
	About 25 or 30 people were killed.
	$2 billion in damages, all because of people like Black Lives Matter making the connection between George Floyd's treatment and his race when there wasn't any.
	And now you have the same cast of characters swooping in.
	You know, BLM's already talking about, of course, what happened in Memphis.
	Al Sharpton is going to be at the funeral.
	Benjamin Crump, who always goes in and tries to get money out of the community or the cops or whomever.
	You got the feds doing a civil rights investigation in Memphis.
	Why?
	Why?
	Let it play out at the local level.
	They've charged all five of these guys with second degree murder.
	Stay out of it.
	The federal government has no role yet, but they've got to stick their nose under the tent so they can look like they're doing something, Larry.
	It's like you could write the script as soon as you get news of an event like this.
	Right.
	After Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, in comes the Obama DOJ and they do this big, big investigation into whether or not the Ferguson PD is systemically racist.
	And they found that they were.
	Why?
	Because Ferguson is 67% Black, but 85% of the traffic stops were Black.
	Well, there was a study that came out by the National Institutes of Justice, which is the research arm, the DOJ, and they found out it is true that Blacks are disproportionately stopped by the cops, but they say it's because Blacks disproportionately break the law.
	More likely to speed, more likely to drive with an expired tag, more likely not to have a seatbelt on, and so forth.
	And if you just look at the gap, 67% of the population, but 85% of the stops, what's that, an 18-point gap?
	Look at the NYPD, which is ethnically diverse.
	Blacks are 25% of the population in New York, but 55% of the traffic stops.
	That's a 30-point gap.
	So therefore, the NYPD is more systemically racist than Ferguson.
	You can't look at it based on numbers.
	You have to look at it based on behavior.
	And once again, unfortunately, black drivers are more likely to commit a traffic offense than white drivers, which is why they're pulled over.
	And the people, by the way, who are saved by pulling people like that over, getting them off the streets are the very black and brown people living in their city that people on the left claim that they care about.
	Well, that's the true tragedy here because you know, I mean, as you say, Ferguson effect or now the George Floyd effect, black and brown people are going to die in greater numbers if we see a police pullback the way we saw after George Floyd as a result of this.
	And that is why the media needs to be responsible, but they won't be.
	They'll just put these tapes on real and just keep running them.
	And they won't offer any of the perspective or context that you just offered or that we provided to you on the actual statistics when it comes to law enforcement.
	That's because they listen to the loudmouths.
	Regarding this professor, Kimberly Crenshaw, who says the police engaging in structural racism by targeting black communities, guess what?
	81% of blacks want the police manpower to remain the same or to be increased.
	So the very people that you claim are being targeted want to be targeted by the cops.
	Right, right.
	We want more, not less.
	But here's my word.
	Awkward.
	Awkward.
	Such awkward details.
	Here's my worry.
	I remember listening to a National Review podcast right after George Floyd, and they were saying, is this a game changer?
	You know, is this Black Lives Matter?
	It's on the basketball courts.
	It's on the Fifth Avenue.
	And the consensus at the time amongst those guys was no, it's not.
	You know, the fires flare and then calm down and then, you know, sort of go back to our normal lives.
	That turned out not to be true.
	You know, I mean, the race essentialism that has filtered down now, K through 12, and I realize that predated George Floyd, but that poured a bunch of gasoline on it, is just breathtaking, you know, at every level, in the schools, in the corporations, at the city level.
	There's a story here in New York City just today.
	Where is it in front of you?
	But anyway, they're mandatory CRT training for every single New York City employee.
	It's everywhere.
	And so this is the kind of thing that they will use to make it even more expansive.
	Well, it is a game changer.
	It will be a game changer.
	As I mentioned, in all these cities where these high profile deaths have taken place, the cops hit pull back.
	It's going to happen in Memphis.
	And again, crime is going to go up.
	The victims of that crime are going to be the very black people that people in the left claim that they care about.
	It is going to have an effect.
	It is going to be a game changer.
	The police have been demoralized.
	Morale has never been this low.
	Manpower has never been this difficult.
	Police officers are resigning earlier, as I said before.
	They're transferring to other departments.
	Manpower is low.
	The only way to get manpower up is to lower standards.
	When you lower standards, you're more likely to get bad clocks, as was the case here in Memphis.
	Again, I'd love to see the applications of these five officers to find out whether in other days they would have even made the cut.
	So what do we get now, Larry?
	We get people, the push for reparations grows, right?
	Like we saw in California in your state, which you should be governor of right now, had there been any justice in this life.
	But you couldn't because you're the black face of white supremacy, says the LA Times.
	So you couldn't hold the role.
	You know, yeah, so these are sort of the crazy solutions that people throw out there to address our historical racism, the historical problems of the American people when it comes to slavery.
	No one's going to take a look.
	I mean, I don't know.
	Like if you were president, let's say you're president, forget governor.
	And I said, Larry, how do we do something about those 70% of black families that don't have a bother figure in them?
	What's your first move?
	Well, the answer is, first of all, to call attention to the problem.
	You can't solve it unless you know it's there.
	I've often talked to people about this and they're shocked at those numbers.
	The other thing is I would urge churches, nonprofits to get involved, and I would direct the money that we're spending on welfare programs for those kinds of programs.
	You can't take the money away from people that made them dependent, but you can certainly put strings attached to it to make sure that they reconsider their behavior and hopefully get on the path towards self-sufficiency.
	We have to at least talk about this.
	You have to at least talk about what's going on regarding the Ferguson effect, the George Floyd effect.
	A lot of people don't even know that.
	I had lunch one time with one of my mentors, Tom Soule, the economist, and I said, probably the most investigated aspect of all economics is the minimum wage.
	He said, that's right.
	He did more studies on that than probably anything else.
	And I said, the consensus overwhelmingly is the minimum wage laws do harm to the very people that you claim that you care about, people with unskilled levels of experience, many of them black and brown.
	Many of them are secondary and tertiary earners of wages, like females.
	And he said, I said, so how come you haven't won that argument?
	And he said, Larry, they haven't heard the argument.
	And we've seen this from Twitter files, the suppression of conservatives and conservative content, the suppression of any debate on whether or not we ought to be opposing lockdowns and mandates.
	Many people don't even know about this, haven't even heard it.
	So at the very least, were I to become governor or president, if I decide to run and I'm thinking about it, I would have the bully pulpit and people would have to hear the kinds of things you and I are talking about and they would have to consider them.
	And they aren't doing that right now.
	Wait a minute.
	You just slipped a little news in there.
	Are you actually thinking about running for president?
	News nugget.
	Yes, I am.
	I'm going to probably announce if I decide to do it at the end of March, early April.
	I've been to Iowa about four or five times the last month.
	I've been to New Hampshire.
	I've met a lot of people.
	I'm meeting with donors.
	I am really strongly giving consideration.
	It isn't because I want to derail Trump or DeSantis or anybody else who decides to run.
	We all know what the issues are.
	They are inflation.
	They are energy independence.
	They are the borders.
	They are the poor education kids are getting in the inner city.
	But I want to bring to the table two things.
	The first is the centrality of having fathers in the home that we don't talk enough about.
	And the second is I think I can debunk this lie about systemic racism because I'm from the hood.
	My father grew up in Athens, Georgia during real Jim Crow South.
	I think I can debunk this notion in a more passionate and I think incredible way than maybe anybody else can.
	So I'm running for all those reasons if I decide to run.
	Wow.
	Larry, that's elderforamerica.com, elderforamerica.com.
	Don't know something in the tip yard.
	Elder for America.com.
	Yeah, got it.
	Well, on your point about Thomas Sowell, yes, they don't know Tom Sowell's points on the minimum wage, which they should.
	They don't even know Thomas Sowell.
	This is one of the points that you raise in Uncle Tom.
	I think it was the first one.
	There's two.
	They're both well worth your time.
	You've got young black men saying in Uncle Tom, who's Tom Sowell?
	Why wasn't I taught about him when I was growing up?
	You know, there's a magazine called Ebony Magazine.
	For a while, it was the magazine for Black families.
	You walk into any black home in the inner city and Ebony Magazine is on the corner coffee table.
	And every year they had something called the 100 Most Influential Black Americans.
	And every year, guess who never made the list?
	Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and Clarence Thomas.
	You are one of nine Supreme Court justices.
	Whether you like his policies or not, how could he not be influential?
	He's not on the list.
	Thomas Sowell has written over 40 books, not on the list.
	And Walter Williams is, to my knowledge, the only chair, economics chair, chairman of a non-black college.
	And he wrote about 10 books.
	He syndicated in about 150 different newspapers.
	Thomas Sowell was the most widely read person in the English language when he had his column.
	He had it in about 350 newspapers, plus all of his books.
	Yet many black people don't know who these three people even are, let alone considering the issues that they raise.
	Their very ideas are considered dangerous.
	You're not allowed to speak them.
	If Thomas is allowed to tweet and thankfully does on Twitter, he's a great follow.
	But their instinct would be to suppress them and to be calling them the black face of white supremacy too.
	I mean, who the hell would have the nerve to say that directly to Tom Soule?
	But they would.
	I feel like they would.
	Thankfully, we have you out there, Larry, making these arguments, and you don't care what kind of slings and arrows you take.
	And we are grateful for it.
Dangerous Ideas and Prison Dynamics 00:15:40
	Thanks so much for being here, my friend.
	My pleasure.
	Anytime, you know where to find me.
	Yeah.
	Doctor, all the best to you.
	Okay, you too, doctor.
	And remember, folks, you can find the Megan Kelly Show live on SiriusXM Triumph Channel 111 every weekday at noon East in the full video show and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel.
	Go to youtube.com slash Megan Kelley.
	We've got a lot of good fun clips there.
	You can spend lots of fun time seeing just like the shorts if you just want to see like a little minute, whatever.
	And then go listen to us as a podcast too.
	That's easy when you're driving your car.
	If you miss the SiriusXM live showing, you can do it while you're doing your household chores, you're running your errands, Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher, wherever you get your podcast for free.
	And by the way, there you'll find our full archives with more than 480 shows, including the very first one we did with Larry with his backstory, which is very moving.
	You'll love it.
	Now it's time for Kelly's Court on the docket today.
	We'll touch on Tyree Nichols, the trial of Alex Murdoch in South Carolina.
	And is ABC News going to face a lawsuit over the firing of GMA co-hosts TJ Holmes and Amy Roebach?
	A lot to get to.
	That plus our romance novelist.
	Joining me now, Mark Eiglarsh, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney and civil law attorney as well.
	Arthur Idala, trial attorney and managing partner at Idala, Bertuna and Caymans.
	Guys, welcome back to the show.
	Great to be here.
	All right.
	So can I ask you, first of all, in addition to your law job, Arthur, and coming on as a panelist on Kelly's court, you also have another job, which is as a radio show, and you have a big get coming up, someone most of us can't stand.
	Tell us who it is.
	Well, I was asked, as I was here, to go on Governor Cuomo, Andrew Cuomo's, he has his own little podcast video cast.
	It's not nearly as professional or widely watched as yours.
	And at the end, I just threw it out there.
	I was like, can you return the favor?
	And he said yes.
	And he came into my office.
	He sat here for a little over an hour and I cross-examined him the best I could.
	I mean, I didn't cross-examine him the way you would, but I'm not exactly in your league when it comes to being an interviewer and a host at this point.
	Please.
	Well, you're the way better at cross-examination.
	Okay.
	So do you ask him about the nursing home scandal?
	Tell me that.
	Do you ask him about the nursing home scandal?
	I asked him that twice because he kind of ducked and he kind of ducked again.
	And I asked him about COVID in general.
	Like what were the mistakes?
	What were the mistakes?
	And really the only thing he owned up to was the mistakes was he should have acted a lot sooner.
	I mean, that's what he said.
	And that he should have stopped regarding the nursing homes.
	He should have stopped the staffers and the visitors from going there from day one.
	He said, that's obviously the older people who aren't leaving the homes.
	They don't have the COVID.
	It was the staffers who brought it in and their family members who brought who visited them brought it in.
	And he said he would have shut down the airports.
	He should have shut down the airports a lot sooner.
	And I said, you know, when Trump shut down the airports, he caught a lot of grief.
	And he was like, even Trump was late.
	He goes, we should have done it a lot.
	All right.
	I heard enough about Andrew Cuomo.
	If they want to hear the full interview, where can they hear it?
	He's clearly wounded, though.
	You're going to hear a different person.
	You're not going to be able to do that.
	He's going to kill 15,000 people.
	No one cares if he's wounded.
	But you're not going to hear the liberal lefty Andrew Cuomo.
	You're going to hear someone who got filleted by a prosecutor.
	He sounded more like a defense attorney than a prosecutor.
	Arthur Idala on any of the Apple podcast networks or any of that stuff.
	I'm on tonight.
	All of you New Yorkers, AM 970 at 6 p.m.
	Thank you for that, Megan.
	It was a big thing.
	It was a nerve-wracking thing for me to do.
	It was like the biggest one I had after interviewing Megan Kelly and my very first big guest interview.
	Well, I will forgive you for making me share space with that man.
	Don't get me started or my pal.
	Okay, let's move on to more interesting people.
	First of all, let's let's we can't we'd be remiss if we didn't touch on these second-degree murder charges against these cops in the Tyree Nichols case.
	Look, us from the outside, we look at these tapes.
	We're like, yeah, done.
	Second-degree murder.
	That makes sense.
	But if you guys got hired to defend them, do you see anything on those tapes that you could use?
	Mark, I'll start with you.
	Okay.
	First of all, I don't like they.
	I don't like when we lump all officers in without looking at each individual's actions.
	And if I'm representing someone, it's going to be one person in particular.
	And I will trace their actions step by step, what they knew, what they were told.
	And hopefully I have the guy who participated but didn't cross the line.
	Right.
	That's what they're all going to be looking for.
	Go ahead, Arthur.
	Well done.
	I already heard one person say, I think one of the lawyers for one of them is that they, the officer, got hit with the pepper spray and they were out of commission.
	And so they couldn't really participate.
	So that's what Mark is saying.
	You have to chi on your one person.
	What Ben Crump said this morning on, I think it was CBS, which I agree with, is like when you have videos like this, we don't need the new standard is you don't need a six-month investigation.
	He was complimenting law enforcement for acting relatively swiftly in bringing charges here.
	I don't know.
	I feel like some people are saying second degree murder is too much, that they should have gone for involuntary manslaughter.
	What's the standard between those two charges, Mark?
	And like, do you see, do you think the charge is correct?
	Do you agree that it should be second degree?
	I think that all prosecutors are instructed to go for the most severe charge that they can justify and then let the jurors, if they want, find that it's not that.
	But to go low because somehow, you know, you think it's an easier get is not the right call.
	You go for the highest charge that is reasonable, that you can make the argument for.
	And I think that they can make that argument.
	Second rule.
	Hold on.
	Second degree, as I understand it, is an intentional killing that didn't have premeditation, whereas involuntary manslaughter is reckless.
	It was a reckless, you behave recklessly in a manner that resulted in somebody's death.
	So the standard of proof is considerably lower for involuntary.
	Go ahead, Arthur.
	Well, talk about plea bargaining, Arthur.
	That was a good point.
	Talk about plea bargaining.
	I was going to correct you, Meg.
	The standard of proof is the same standard of proof.
	It's beyond a reasonable doubt.
	So the standard of proof is the same.
	It's just the elements that they have to prove are much lower.
	And yes, it does give prosecutors the ability to plea bargain.
	So, okay, instead of it being man two, I'm at murder two.
	We'll let you plea bargain it down.
	And instead of having 25 years of prison, now you're only facing 15 years in prison.
	There is one aggravating factor or that helps a police officer mitigating factor is when help arrives, when the medical help arrives, they do not render immediate aid.
	You see them standing there.
	You see them talking there.
	You see them not like jumping right on the victim and to try to revive him and try to give him aid for quite some time.
	And that is something that if I'm a defense attorney, I'm saying, listen, maybe my guy overreacted, but then he's the one who called and asked for medical assistance and they got here and they're chewing the fat on who's going to play on in Sunday's football game as opposed to rendering aid.
	Mark, forgive me for going there, but it's something that the defense lawyers are undoubtedly doing now.
	They're going to want toxicology tests on the defendant.
	They're going to want to try to make this more complicated morally than it currently is.
	Right.
	Well, that's what we do.
	Listen, our job is not to seek the truth.
	That's what the prosecutors allegedly are supposed to do.
	Our job is to use the law and seek an acquittal.
	And if somehow those things are admissible and they're favorable, we're going to use it.
	We would use it if it was one of your family members accused of something.
	We're going to do everything we possibly can to get the best possible outcome.
	Any chance, Arthur, they're worried about flight, these five cops.
	They know what they would be facing in prison.
	Cops, you know, who killed a man under these circumstances?
	And they're out on bail, you know?
	So I don't know.
	I wonder if I'd be thinking, I got to get out of here.
	I would tell you the rule of thumb, I can't speak about Tennessee, but the rule of thumb in the state of New York is when you're charged with a homicide, it is very, very hard to get any bail whatsoever, $5 million, $10 million.
	The rule of thumb is homicide equals remand.
	Remand means if someone comes and puts a billion dollars up, you don't get out unless there's something special like a real self-defense claim or something along those lines.
	Hold on one second.
	This is special.
	And everyone needs to understand the purpose of bail.
	It's not to punish somebody.
	It's will the cops return to court and answer to the charges.
	And the bail should be, the bond amount should be as low as possible to ensure that they can return to court.
	Megan's point is you're facing when you're facing life in prison.
	Megan's point is when you're facing life in prison and your acts are on video.
	You're not relying on some crackhead who's a block away saying, yeah, he did it.
	You're on your own body cam video.
	And like, I'm a young man.
	I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail.
	Why don't I try to get to Venezuela?
	Why don't I try to get somewhere else?
	You know, I think that's.
	What about it?
	Have you ever seen anybody do it?
	Like any of your clients, you drive your car down to the Mexican border.
	It's so easy to cross north.
	How hard could it be to cross south?
	And I realize Mexico extradites, if they find you, they're going to send you back to the United States.
	But what if they don't find you?
	Like, why don't more defendants in this position do that?
	I will tell you, first of all, it's very hard to not get caught.
	Second of all, I actually had a client who did it and I told him, look, be confident.
	I'm working on your case.
	He takes off.
	About a month later, I got the charges dropped.
	I wasn't able to reach him to tell him.
	I don't think he knows at this point.
	No, I haven't.
	Megan, when I was a prosecutor, as the jury was deliberating, the client, the defendant left and the defense attorney was very confident he was going to win.
	And the defendant was found guilty.
	And at the sentencing, he was sentenced in absentia.
	The judge said, I was never going to sentence him this hard, but now I am.
	He gives them the max.
	That was 25 years ago.
	I got a call two months ago.
	They found the guy in Greece and they're extraditing him back when he was, he had 25 good years in Greece and now he's going to serve, I think, seven or eight years.
	Not that we're advocating it, but it is sort of an interesting prospect because it's like, God, even if these guys get a life sentence, they'd be lucky to serve it out given the dynamics in a prison for a cop who beat a man to death.
	It's just the whole thing is so charged emotionally and otherwise.
	All right, let's talk about the Alex Murdoch case because this case is everywhere.
	I'm a big fan of true crime podcasts and shows.
	And they have hit this case.
	I mean, it must be 25 times between dateline and 2020 and 48 hours, all of them, like all of them.
	So people are into this case.
	Guy down in South Carolina from a long line of legal scholars and successful prosecutors, though this guy was, to put it charitably, the runt of the litter, didn't have anything close to the career that his dad and his granddad and the other guy had above him.
	And he, they first run into trouble when his son has this terrible boat accident.
	His son, Paul, has this terrible boat accident.
	And the son, Paul, is reportedly blotto drunk and hits a piling and a young girl named Mallory goes flying, dies on impact, 19 years old, terrible.
	So he's facing at least a civil case, Paul Murdoch was, as a result of that.
	And then Alex Murdoch, next thing we know, he gets into some financial trouble at his law firm, which would later result in him being disbarred.
	And the next thing we know, his wife and that son, Paul, are shot to death and murdered on his property.
	And he says, I was over visiting my mom, didn't have anything to do with it, but I did find the bodies and I called 911.
	So far, do we agree that's the basic outline of the facts?
	That's what's being alleged.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And then, by the way, he had another run-in with a gun where somebody allegedly tried to shoot him, this Alex Murtoch, on the side of the road, but he later reportedly confessed he put the guy up to it.
	That was a whole scheme.
	He claims to get insurance money to his remaining son.
	Who knows?
	It was probably going to go to his own pocket if you know anything about this guy's character.
	It doesn't sound very high.
	He didn't get away with that.
	And there's a whole other layer to the story with a housekeeper.
	And so we could keep going.
	But let's stick with what's happening now.
	He's on trial now for what exactly, Mark?
	Well, he's facing murder charges.
	He's got a hundred and something different charges, but what he's on trial right now for is did he kill his own son and his wife?
	That's the issue.
	And defense lawyers are saying the reason why we think it might have been someone else is because it's payback because his son killed someone two years ago in a boating accident.
	Boy, that's thin.
	I know Arthur wouldn't run with that.
	No way.
	It's better than that.
	What they're saying is what he said in the opening statement is: so there's no video, there's no fingerprints, there's no forensics, there's no blood.
	There's it's uh, it was two separate weapons that we used: one to kill the son first and one to kill the wife second.
	And so, like, who would go in?
	So, they're saying it's two people, it wasn't one person.
	If one person was going to kill these people, they would use the same weapon.
	You don't switch weapons midway.
	He has an alibi that he was with at his mom's house.
	Now, his mom is Pres Alzheimer's, so I don't know if she could even be a witness.
	Um, so I mean, the defense has something to go on.
	Unlike the case we just spoke of when everything is on video, here there's no video, there's no confession, there's no admission.
	Um, there are some.
	I don't necessarily have been some blood or something.
	Wait, let's set it up.
	Let's set it up before we do that.
	So, they, of course, if he committed this brutal murder of his son and his wife, with whom he was said to have a bad relationship, though the defense is denying that, uh, his wife, um, and he blew them up, I mean, with a shotgun, um, there'd be blood on him.
	There would be blood on him, and there wasn't.
	There's a dispute about it, but there's certainly he was not covered in blood, that's for sure.
	And now, the prosecution is saying there was trace blood on this white t-shirt they had tested just this morning.
	Literally, this, the case opened on Friday, so we're on second day two.
	Um, just this morning, the uh cross-examination of the witness who said we tested that t-shirt and we found trace blood.
	Uh, that witness admitted that those same positive tests could also indicate rust or bleach.
	So, the defense attorney did a good job poking some holes, and there was blood in the t-shirt.
	The defense's lawyer is saying, Where would the blood be?
	Where's the blood?
	If my guy did it, why is he having this perfectly white t-shirt?
	Mark, go ahead.
	Okay, it does come down to the science first and foremost.
	As long as the defense can create a reasonable doubt as to whether that's blood and whether that's the blood that would have come from him shooting, as long as they neutralize it, then the jurors cannot decide on that issue.
	Then it comes down to the other stuff.
	And again, there's no busload of nuns who saw him do it.
	But again, the question is, and while prosecutors don't have to prove motive, still, jurors want to know why, why would he do it?
	What's this?
	But, Mark, don't they have a motive?
	Like, don't they have a motive?
Gunshot Residue and Reasonable Doubt 00:08:01
	I don't know if the judge is going to let it in, but he just got caught stealing $8 million from clients and from lawyers from his lawyers in his own law firm, including his own brother.
	And he had just gotten busted.
	They had just confronted him that day.
	And so, and so his whole thing, how does killing his son benefit him?
	So, the prosecutor says killing his son benefits him.
	It gives him the ultimate sympathy, the ultimate, let's cut our law partner a break because his kid and his wife were just executed.
	And if we just reach, oh my goodness.
	He's a lunatic.
	If he killed his family, he's a lunatic.
	Right.
	By the way, if you steal $8.8 million from your clients and your partners, you're also a lunatic.
	Maybe a different person.
	But you're all what do the jurors know?
	Are they throwing in the kitchen sink?
	Are they throwing in charges that are not for their consideration?
	Will that be allowed?
	If that's the case, that's one thing.
	It'll grossly prejudice his murder trial.
	If that's allowed in, then you go, oh, that's right.
	He is not in his right frame of mind.
	He would do something this horrific.
	But to just garner sympathy, I'm going to take out my wife and my kid, that's thin.
	That's a horrible motive.
	I don't know if that's coming in.
	Is that coming in, Arthur?
	Do we know where that's coming in?
	It'll be up to the judge's discretion, but I think the prosecutor opened on it.
	So if the judge allowed the prosecutor to open on it, then the judge is probably letting it in.
	If we go back to the blood for a second, the flip side of the coin about him not having blood on him is he tells the paramedics or the 911 caller, I checked for a pulse on both of them and they're both covered.
	I mean, his son's head is blown off.
	They said there was blood dripping from the ceiling.
	They're saying if he really tested them or put his hands on them to check their pulse, he's going to have some blood on him.
	So the fact that he doesn't have any blood on him means he's not going to be able to do it.
	However, however, first of all, we are hearing that there was blood on his shirt, assuming the jurors buy that it's blood and not, you know, barbecue sauce.
	But there's a difference between blood that's soaked on a white shirt that would be consistent with leaning over someone and getting that type of transfer, and then little bits and splatter that you would expect from someone who shoots someone with a shotgun.
	They should easily be able to discern what the difference is.
	He did it.
	If he committed this crime, there was some garment he should have been wearing that would be covered in blood, right?
	I mean, I don't know how close they're saying it would have to be.
	They're not alleged across the road.
	Wait, yes, gunshot.
	There is gunshot.
	Talk about that, the trench coat back at his mommy's house where he ran.
	Right.
	To me, that's huge.
	Arthur was saying that the defense is saying there's no forensics.
	To me, gunshot resident on a jacket of some sort, like a trench coat or whatever, that he left at his mother's place, the exact place that he's claiming he went to, and that he was there.
	That's his alibi.
	Well, that's huge.
	How do you explain that?
	Well, where's the blood?
	If that's if he's wearing that trench coat when he committed these alleged crimes, Arthur, wouldn't it have blood on it?
	You would assume so.
	But Megan, my understanding is they only recovered one of the two weapons.
	So whatever that other weapon.
	I don't think they have either weapon.
	I don't think they found either weapon.
	They believe they know what the one weapon was because it matches ammo all over the Murdoch property.
	And they were able to say this, this, like make the link, but I don't think they have either gun.
	Okay, maybe I'm misinformed, but where my thinking is he got rid of that's probably the second weapon he used.
	And those clothes, he got rid of those as well.
	I mean, it's not that hard to change your clothes.
	There's like a long gap between when the car, when the autopsy was conducted, where the medical examiner says they died, and when he actually calls 911, plenty of time to destroy some clothes and change.
	And it's a 1700-acre property, I believe.
	I mean, it's huge and it's been in his family for years.
	So this guy knows it.
	He would have had plenty of time to go hide those guns.
	And my producer Debbie's confirming they did not find the guns to get to get rid of those guns and to get rid of whatever bloody thing he may have been wearing.
	And the defense is trying to explain away that trench coat with the gun residue on it, Mark, on the inside of the trench coat that he went and left at his mommy's, he ran to mommy after the alleged crime with Alzheimer's.
	Great alibi.
	They're saying the defense is suggesting that's from the gun he took once he stumbled upon this bloody crime scene.
	He armed himself.
	He was discombobulated and he got a gun just in case there was a killer still on site.
	Okay.
	So as Arthur knows, our job as defense lawyers is to come up with a reasonable hypothesis of innocence.
	This is a circumstantial case, which means there's no busload of nuns who saw him do it.
	Every little piece of the puzzle, if it can be explained away, at least with an equally plausible defense theory, negates the prosecutor's case.
	So you just came up with one.
	Thanks to your producers.
	Boo, that explains the gunshot residue.
	Boom, check that out.
	Yeah, they came on the defense.
	There was, I got that from it's Dick Herputlium.
	Remember him from our Fox News days?
	You guys probably did a Kelly's court about against him.
	Or I don't know because he was a Democratic lawmaker.
	Yeah.
	I don't think he was like doing the legal role for us.
	He delivered a pretty powerful opening statement.
	You know, he's not pulling any punches here.
	And that's what you have to do when public opinion is against you.
	And he has the living son who's sitting in the courtroom.
	He sits behind his dad during opening statements.
	And everyone assumed, you know, because the world that we live in, if you sit behind the prosecutor, you're on that team.
	And if you sit behind the defense attorney, you're on that team.
	And then when he was interviewed, I believe over the weekend, he was confronted with, oh, you're sitting behind your dad.
	You're supporting him.
	And he said, no one should think that I'm supporting my father.
	And both sides, I think, are saying that he's going to testify on their behalf.
	So that poor kid's head's got to be spinning off his shoulders.
	What I don't understand is, okay, if he didn't do it, right?
	Do you buy that somehow two years later, someone's seeking revenge by killing the mother and the and the son?
	That just doesn't make any sense to me.
	Well, I mean, I guess if we're going to go down this lane, the theory is because it was a very big deal when this young woman was killed on that boat and it made national headlines.
	The family is very prominent and so on.
	And then they were accused of trying to cover it up, like go down there and control the testimonials of everybody who was on the boat to try to make it look like Paul Murtock wasn't driving.
	In the end, it all came out.
	But it was very charged, emotionally charged.
	So perhaps the theory is somebody went to kill Paul.
	They went to kill Paul and the mom's there.
	And they say Paul was killed first.
	And then it's like, well, now you got to kill the eyewitness.
	You know, it's unfortunate the mom was there, but she's got to go too.
	Two years later, somehow they wanted to seek their revenge.
	Listen, all I'll say about that, Mark, is I very recently handled a case that was the cover of all the newspapers here in New York where a man was accused of killing a Chinese food restaurant owner because he didn't give him enough duck sauce.
	And the whole issue was about he didn't get enough duck sauce and soy sauce.
	And nine months later, he went back and executed him.
	So all I'm saying is never say never.
	In New York, that driver of the boat would have been prosecuted for vehicular homicide for sure.
	Why that didn't happen down there in South in South Carolina?
	Maybe that's because the dad was tinkering and a family member who's suffering such a loss of their beautiful child says, you know what?
	If there's going to be no justice, no justice, well, I'm going to make their be just.
	Listen, anyone who's had an egg roll with no soy sauce or duck sauce on it understands.
Boat Driver Homicide and Appeals 00:16:04
	I'm joking.
	You need it.
	You need, it's not a cause for murder, but you do need the appropriate duck sauce.
	It's not all I'm saying, really.
	Right.
	So it's macabre.
	It's dark humor because we're lawyers and this is what we, this is how we manage these dark cases that come with you.
	My heart, my heart goes out to the family.
	Oh my God, you're the biggest, you're the biggest bleeding heart we know.
	It's a miracle you make it as an attorney.
	You're such a bleeding heart.
	Okay, so let's get into some of the testimonials that we've heard because they're interesting.
	So here's one of the witnesses.
	This is Daniel Green, a sergeant.
	And he's showing and we're talking about his police officer body camera.
	And the reason I think this is introduced is to show what Alex Murtaugh told the officer when this officer got on scene and how Alex Murtock seemed to be, Murdoch, sorry, Murdoch, seemed to be trying to say, oh, it was somebody who's mad at Paul because of that boat ride.
	Oh, he's like sort of laying the foundation right from the get-go.
	This is the prosecution's witness.
	Let's take a listen to Soundbite 17.
	Man, I'm checking the poster.
	Yes, sir.
	Is the firearm you brought from inside the house?
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	I went out.
	This is a long story.
	My son was at a boat wreck a few months back.
	He's been getting threats.
	Most of it's been benign stuff we didn't take serious.
	You know, he's been getting like punched.
	I know that's somebody.
	I know that's what it is.
	Did you get home right when you called, or did you go to the house first?
	Where is the house?
	I came to the house first.
	My mom has late stages of Alzheimer's and my dad is in the hospital.
	Okay.
	I left.
	I don't know what time.
	I can go back on my phone and tell you the exact times.
	Did you check?
	Did I check what?
	Did you check them?
	We got medical guys that are, that's, that's, that's what they're gonna do.
	Okay, what are they doing?
	Can they hurry?
	They are yes, sir.
	So he says that stuff about the fireback.
	I'm calling, I know that's what it is.
	Go ahead Mark, Megan.
	Megan, right away.
	He's saying, I know what it is.
	No, I know, that's what I came up with beforehand and i'm gonna send that to you.
	I that that I that's so transparent to me.
	Who says, I know that's what it is, go ahead, Arthur.
	You know, when you hear that we're all married, we would love our spouses, we all have kids, like i'd be like in the fetal position, like I don't think i'd be and i'm not exaggerating like I don't think i'd even be able to function at that level if I walked in.
	I mean, you both know my wife, you know my children and that's what I saw.
	I would, I wouldn't, i'd be incapacitated, I wouldn't be talking about plots, and and he talks about the plot and then he asks, is someone taking care of them?
	If I was screaming anything, i'd just be like down to the hospital, give me an ambulance, hurry up.
	I mean, i'd be losing my mind that way, not like, let me tell you who I think did this.
	Oh wait, and I, to your point wait, a random home invasion, like what i'm gonna start steering.
	You know uh precious yeah um, law enforcement resources, because I think I know who did it.
	No, I can't eliminate, you know, an armed home invasion, robbery or something else.
	No, okay.
	So and to your point about how any normal person would be.
	Listen to this, how cavalier he is.
	Again, this is, this is continuation of sergeant Daniel Green, his testimony uh, and his exchange with Alec Murdoch, Murdock.
	It's very confusing because it's spelled M-u-r-d-a-u-g-h, but apparently it's pronounced Murdoch, um.
	Here they are.
	Listen to the cavalier nature of uh Murdoch and his soundbite 19.
	I'm very sorry.
	I call her what?
	What's her name?
	Her name's?
	Maggie Murdoch, Margaret Brand Standard Murdock.
	How you doing.
	What did the defendant just say?
	Let me back it up, How you doing.
	What did the defendants say right there?
	So while I'm in the process of gathering information about the two victims from Mr. Murdoch, somebody walks by behind me and he pauses what he's telling me to say, hey, how you doing?
	How you doing?
	Yeah.
	And who was that he said that to?
	I'm not 100% certain.
	I believe it was a fire rescue individual.
	To your point, Arthur.
	I'm a big greeter of people, you know, under those circumstances.
	You know, I'm hearing this statement and you put yourself in that position.
	And it doesn't get worse, right?
	You're spousing your kid.
	I just, yeah, it seems very well rehearsed.
	And look at what, look, look what the guy does afterwards.
	Now he's going to pay someone to shoot him and kill him so he can give his son money.
	And look what he did before.
	He stole almost $10 million.
	So, you know, I'm done with him.
	Yeah.
	I'm done with this guy.
	He will not be in the running to replace Dick Hart Footley if this thing goes south.
	Let me just ask you this before we wrap this case up for today.
	You know, these juries, Mark, CSI, they want fingerprints.
	They want DNA.
	They want all the things that they see on the movies.
	And it doesn't look like they're going to get a ton of that here.
	So, you know, beyond a shadow, beyond a reasonable doubt, that's what we talked about.
	The burden of proof is high for these prosecutors.
	I don't know, slam dunk, or would you not use those words for the prosecution here?
	I would never use slam dunk.
	In fact, what I just used for my jurors last week and my jurors are deliberating right this second.
	We put up a chart and we said in the worst case scenario, if you think that he's definitely possibly guilty or you're absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's probably guilty, you must acquit.
	You must find him not guilty.
	There's going to be a lot of evidence that this was, I think, that this was not a good marriage between the two of them and that the son Paul had brought a lot of problems into the family because of that boat accident.
	And while he's going to claim it was a delightful marriage, I think the evidence won't support it.
	We'll see whether Buster.
	His other son, yeah, when his other son testifies, if he testifies, I mean, that's where you would believe the most accurate information would come, at least about the status of the marriage.
	This guy was unhinged, and it's a pleasure to watch him actually have to face justice and the proceeding.
	And I'm glad that he's got a good lawyer, too, because we need that as well.
	Right.
	Stand by because there's much much more to go through with Mark and Arthur right after this.
	Mark, so you're waiting on a jury right now?
	Like they're deliberating at this second.
	You're with me?
	Yes, there is.
	I'm here in the Miami federal courthouse on the 14th floor in the attorney's lounge.
	The jurors began their deliberation on Friday.
	It was supposed to be about a three to four week trial that this no-nonsense judge condensed into a two-week trial.
	They're now on to their third week deliberating.
	Now their second day, and my client will either get his freedom or 20 to 30 years for Medicare fraud.
	So are you on pins and needles right now?
	Good question.
	It's tough.
	It's tough.
	I believe in my client's innocence.
	He took the witness stand.
	He was courageous.
	And it's just tough.
	The presumption of innocence doesn't really exist.
	When you see someone handcuffed on the street or you see them on the news, you don't say, why are they arresting that innocent person?
	So magically, they come into court.
	The judge gives us a symbolic 15 minutes to find out who they are.
	And we're supposed to know who these people are.
	And we pick them.
	Not to go too deep into the weeds, but Megan, it's something that attorneys are really upset about is judges are cutting down the time that we have to interview jurors more and more and more.
	The Harvey Weinstein case, he gave me 15 minutes to talk to 22 jurors of the potential jurors.
	What could you learn from 22 people in 15 minutes?
	A case came down, though, Mark, here in the second circuit, the federal court, that's saying that judges cannot do that any longer.
	And they reversed the case because they did not allow the lawyers adequate time to talk about who's going to be these impartial people who are judging you.
	So, unfortunately, that case law hasn't reached the 11th circuit over here, number one.
	Number two, I had 48 jurors.
	And when you talk for 15 minutes, the first minute is devoted to who the hell you are and to thank them for their assistance.
	Now you're down to 14 minutes.
	You spent about five on that one out of 48 whose father was a cop her whole life.
	So you got to spend some time on her.
	I mean, it's just, it's ludicrous.
	You don't know what you're getting.
	And I will tell you, I'll never forget.
	This was early on in my career, probably 25 years ago.
	I tried one of my first federal cases and we waited and all the jurors got together and they said, we have to send this note to the judge.
	So everybody had to come in and their question was the following.
	What dose they spell does D-O-S-E Unamos U-N-A-M-O-U-S mean?
	What does UNAMOS mean?
	Spelled does and unanimous incorrectly.
	And they didn't know what it meant, even though the judge had just told them and it was right there in their jury packet.
	So that's what we're dealing with.
	All right.
	So I honestly, it would be a dereliction of duty if I did not use this moment to talk about the most famous recent case in which this has been a problem.
	And that is the case of Ghelane Maxwell, who had a juror on her panel who that was the one case I looked at.
	They always try to claim some juror did something.
	This was one where I was like, you know what?
	She actually might have this.
	But the judge disagreed with me because the juror had been like, had suffered a sexual assault or some sort of abuse as a child, who was a male and didn't disclose it twice on the jury form and then used it in the deliberations to try to swing the verdict against her.
	If only I knew a lawyer who had a legal connection to Ghelane Maxwell that I could ask about, oh, oh, wait, he's been such a busy boy.
	Andrew Cuomo, all of the greatest people come into your life.
	And now you're, are you representing her?
	That's what Mark and I do.
	That's what we do.
	But actually, that is, it's a very, very, very big issue, especially since after the verdict, this juror bragged about the fact that he like swayed the whole jury pool, like the whole, all of his fellow jurors, saying, look, I went through this myself.
	And you know why you don't believe that witness?
	Well, let me tell you why you should believe that witness, because when I went through it, I felt the same way.
	And that's after swearing under oath on this form that that person was never a victim.
	I already said all that.
	I'll get to the fact of representing Ghelane.
	Do you represent her?
	Yeah, we're writing her appeal as we speak.
	How's that going?
	Coming on screen because we're working on it right now.
	When you go in to meet her for the first time, do you ask the questions?
	Do you say, like, did you do it?
	No, I don't.
	I think Mark will agree.
	Not when someone's been convicted already.
	There are plenty of times.
	Hey, Megan, Megan, we're not reporters.
	No, you don't.
	There's plenty of times.
	Could you just do it for me?
	If you want to get into it, there's plenty of times when clients first come into the office.
	I say something like, look, if you did this, don't have me poking around and making finding more evidence against you.
	You might want to let me know what's going on.
	And most of the time, they come clean with me.
	And most of the time, what Mark and I do, luckily, is represent people who have done something wrong.
	And we mitigate it.
	We make a horrible situation bad.
	Luckily, we don't live in a society where there's a ton of innocent folks getting locked up.
	Imagine how horrible our world would be if that was the case.
	I can just imagine Arthur's class.
	So do I hire the private investigator or do I not?
	Your choice.
	Exactly.
	Okay, exactly.
	Got it.
	All right, let's move on.
	Well, Ghelane has been lovely since you brought it up.
	She's been a wonderful client.
	She's a very intelligent woman who knows every word of every page of her transcript and has been very helpful in writing her appeal, as has Harvey Weinstein.
	He knows every word of every page of it.
	And he was very involved, Harvey Weinstein, in writing this appeal to the highest court here in the state of New York.
	Look forward to you setting up my interviews with both of them.
	Let's talk about TJ Holmes and Amy Robach, who are now officially out at ABC News.
	They lost their jobs altogether.
	And before you say, oh, sad, they just fell in love.
	It happens outside of a marriage.
	And I understand all that.
	I think there is a very good reason why they lost their jobs.
	I think it was two things.
	The ridiculous PR behavior that they engaged in post the scandal breaking.
	They handled the media exactly the wrong way in my view.
	And number two, it came out that he had all these other alleged affair partners at ABC.
	And you tell me, Arthur, because my suspicion is they were in a position where what are you going to do?
	You're going to fire the black anchor and you're going to let the white female stay.
	That can't happen.
	She had to go to, even though that investigation appears to have only found her prior sins as being she had a bottle of liquor sealed in her office and somebody claimed she showed up drunk after some sporting event on the air, which I don't believe either.
	But I bet you if you cast a wide net, you'd find 10 people who showed up drunk on the air at ABC at one point or another.
	So what do you make of it?
	They're at-will employees.
	I mean, we get people who come into our office asking about these kinds of questions.
	They could fire them for any reason they want.
	No, they're not.
	They definitely had contracts.
	They are not at-will employees.
	They definitely had contracts.
	They could take them off the air.
	And Megan, I have negotiated these four cause contracts and these, the networks, they dig in so hard on basically firing them for cause is whatever the network kind of feels is for a cause.
	They will not give you a definition.
	Does for cause mean it's someone who's been arrested?
	Does for cause mean someone who's been caught in an extramarital relationship?
	They keep it as general and as amorphous as they can.
	And as you saw the memo that was written by the head of ABC, who just said, basically, it was too much of a distraction internally for us and for the people inside ABC and externally.
	I do not see them winning a lawsuit, especially as you said, the way they handle the media afterwards.
	There's pictures of them smooching and she's jumping on them and all over the place.
	It's just they didn't do anything to help themselves.
	I've got fuel to the fire as opposed to putting the fire out.
	They did.
	Let me lose just a disclosure.
	I'm friends with Amy.
	I think the world of her, I think that when you, the anchor, become the story, that's where it's problematic for the viewers.
	And I think that that's why they let them go.
	They became the story.
	And it's hard to separate them talking about someone else's scandal when there's one to the viewers anyway, right involving those two.
	See, I have a strong thought on this.
	I have a very strong thought on this.
	I think those two could have come out.
	They could have said on the show that the next day, because they were on the air one day with this scandal having been broken by the Daily Mail.
	And they could have said, we are very embarrassed.
	It's true.
	This was a private matter that we wanted to resolve privately, given the fact that we have kids and we have spouses, but we couldn't given the Daily Mail report.
	And we are going to take a leave of absence to deal with this.
	And we hope that we can earn your forgiveness and trust when we come back.
	And then lay low.
	Stop with the very clearly orchestrated photo events in South Beach where they were all over each other kissing and fondling while their spouses who they cheated on are posting sad face pictures with their kids who look incredibly forlorn.
	That was a massive PR error.
	They 100% orchestrated it in my opinion.
South Beach Cheating Scandal 00:04:35
	And then I give you this.
	Even now, even now, there's this picture broken.
	It's on page six of the two of them.
	She's after the news that they're out at ABC.
	What, what, Debbie?
	Daily Mail, okay.
	Daily Mail exclusive.
	And there she is.
	This is as my friend Donna, fellow lawyer, texted me, you guys.
	What a happy, non-performative embrace.
	Don't you routinely jump into Doug's arms after a nice lunch out?
	They're still doing it.
	They don't understand.
	No one looks at this and says, true love.
	They cheated on their spouses.
	They cheated on their children.
	Yes, it happens.
	It's sad.
	Act like it's sad.
	Stop projecting.
	I don't give a shit about anybody who I hurt.
	All right.
	So my question to you.
	My question to you, Megan, is you said it was highly orchestrated, right?
	The South Beach photos.
	For what benefit?
	In other words, why benefit did they get it?
	Let me tell you.
	Let me tell you, let me put it in terms that my friend Arthur can understand.
	This is a visual for the listening audience at home.
	This is what they're doing, Arthur.
	Right?
	It's an Italian thing.
	I'm putting the hand underneath the neck and motioning forward like F off.
	We're living our best life.
	We are not cheaters.
	We're in love.
	That's not how you handle it.
	There are hurt people.
	Everyone can understand humanity and love relationships that go sour and all that and mistakes.
	People can understand that.
	This looks like, I don't give a shit who I hurt.
	Look at me.
	I'm in Miami.
	I'm having a great time.
	Screw my kids.
	And that's what I think about all the time.
	When I saw that Christmas picture, and you know, it's, it's a different world with this, all this technology.
	You know, back then, all right, it would be in the newspaper for a day and disappear.
	Now these kids are going to be seeing that for the rest of their lives.
	When they Google Christmas Day 2022, they're going to see their mom, you know, cheating on their dad and vice versa.
	And that just, that's heartbreaking.
	If, Megan, look, what you're recommending they would have done in hindsight.
	It sounds brilliant.
	I said it in the moment.
	My audience is my witness.
	Okay, but let me ask you this.
	Would it have worked?
	Have we become such a puritanical society?
	You know, two police officers just got suspended.
	They're in a consensual relationship because they had sex in the locker room.
	Why should they get suspended for having sex in the precinct locker room?
	What did they do wrong?
	They got suspended.
	What are they doing?
	I would have been with you if they had just had an extra marriage, an extramarital affair.
	You know, like it, what if 50% of marriages plus end in divorce?
	Like people obviously make mistakes and, you know, it happens, but they handled it so poorly.
	They showed no remorse.
	And then it turned out that this guy's been fishing off the company pier for years with people who are his subordinates.
	So there was no way in which TJ Holmes was keeping his job.
	He was starting to look like a junior Matt Lauer.
	So he was getting fired because she was his equal, but the others were like young girls coming in who wanted a mentor whom he allegedly took advantage of.
	The record on him was getting worse by the day, according to Daily Mail and New York Post that have had exclusive reporting on this.
	And I do believe they were in a position, given today's climate, where there was absolutely no way where they could fire him and keep her.
	So in the end, they both got out.
	Like that relationship, enjoy your embrace.
	Based on what you just said, though, if they said, look, he was fishing off the company, Pierre.
	It's not just this one issue.
	There's this other young lady and there's this other young lady and the investigation is ongoing.
	We're going to let him go.
	But for us, it appears she only did this one time.
	They have no courage.
	They could never save the white female anchor.
	Look what happened at NBC when I went there.
	And Tamron Hall used to host that hour with some other people.
	And the NAACP started writing letters to NBC.
	How could you replace this black woman with a white woman?
	You know, creating like a race war over it.
	It's like, my God, there are all sorts of considerations that go, why does everything have to be reduced to skin color?
	I guarantee there is no courage at ABC.
	They would never have fired him and not her.
	No way.
	I don't think that that was ever a consideration.
	Going back to my point earlier, the reason why they had to remove them is because this was scandalous.
	They became put them back on the air the next day after it broke.
	If this was such an obvious distraction and scandalous, they wouldn't have done that.
	That wasn't going to work.
	And quite frankly, I can't debate either of you when you pull the kit card.
	You know, there's no excuse when you're picturing these sweet, innocent kids, however old they are, you know, seeing mommy on South Beach, parading around.
	You don't win.
Race War Over White Replacement 00:03:46
	And that's it.
	So that's why everybody knows that.
	Every time these women are throwing themselves at him, he thinks of his children and that's what prevents him.
	No, no, no.
	The line, actually, when I was younger, and I'm happily married, but someone, one of my buddies would say, oh, she's hot.
	I'm like, yeah, she's hot, but not hot enough to only see my kids on the weekends, you know?
	So, you know.
	All right, wait, we got three minutes left and we got to get to Romance Girl.
	So this is a great story, at least on the front page of the New York Times a couple of weeks ago.
	Apparently, the romance author world is super toxic.
	Who knew?
	There's an author named Susan Meachin who faked her own death in what they're calling Romance Landia.
	47 years old, homemaker, author of romance novels, lives in Tennessee.
	And one day, someone made a post to her online site saying that she had died.
	Author Susan Meachin left this world behind Tuesday night.
	For bigger and better things, please leave us alone.
	We have no desire in this messed up to remain in this messed up industry.
	Now, two years later, how long?
	How long?
	How long did it take for her to come out?
	Yeah, three years later, two and a half, she posts that she's alive.
	She's alive.
	Let the fun begin.
	She says, she blames, praise Jesus, she lived.
	And now she's blaming it all on her family.
	She had bipolar.
	They intervened to get her off of this toxic website.
	And there are very angry people in Romance Landia, Mark, who say they've been hurt by this.
	Well, they should be.
	She committed fraud, but I'm torn.
	You know me.
	The minute you mention bipolar, I'm like, oh, Christ.
	Like, she really does have genuine issues that she didn't seek out.
	And so I'm sure that played a role.
	Maybe she thought she was dead.
	I don't know.
	Doesn't the husband take a lot of the blame?
	He says, I'm not sure.
	The husband says he did it.
	And I'm the one who said that she died and she was losing her mind, but she was suffering from mental illness.
	Two and a half years passed after that.
	He asked about, Mark mentions the word fraud.
	I mean, that's the real thing.
	Like, did they, did they collect on an insurance policy?
	Did they do extra?
	They say they didn't.
	They say they benefited not at all.
	However, some complaining fans say that they bought her books.
	It's like, oh, she's dead.
	My God, I want to remember her and her beautiful writings about, hold on.
	Canadian Debbie pulled a sample, a sample.
	Chance encounters.
	Born with the world at my feet.
	She was the only thing I had to work hard for.
	Or love to last a lifetime.
	I was born into wealth and prestige.
	There was nothing I couldn't have.
	Or so I thought, one night is all it took to change my world.
	They wanted more of that.
	They bought those books, which they might not have otherwise purchased.
	Can they get their money back?
	No, no lawyer is going to take the case to get back $22 of a book.
	Sorry.
	You're out.
	Megan, that was just a silly question.
	You read that really good, Megan.
	You read it really well.
	Maybe you should think of a job change.
	Canadian Debbie just announced before this segment that she inadvertently, and trying to like copy some of the excerpts so we could discuss them, inadvertently purchased love to last a lifetime.
	And now the audio is on her husband's account because that's where her purchase.
	His Canadian husband is wondering what the hell this is about.
	Intent.
	All right, Mark, good luck with your jury.
	And Arthur, I look forward to your appearance on the show with Ghelane and then Harvey.
	We'll pick it up later.
	Let me know.
	You got my digits.
	All right, guys.
	Lots of love.
	See you soon.
	Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.
	No BS, no agenda, and no

Chapters

00:00:30 Police Racism and Systemic Lies
00:15:12 Escalation, Lying, and Running Away
00:28:54 Demanding Doctors and Good Cops
00:36:00 Thomas Sowell and Identity Politics
00:46:11 Dangerous Ideas and Prison Dynamics
01:01:52 Gunshot Residue and Reasonable Doubt
01:09:53 Boat Driver Homicide and Appeals
01:25:58 South Beach Cheating Scandal
01:30:33 Race War Over White Replacement