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Feb. 18, 2022 - The Megyn Kelly Show
01:42:55
20220218_the-science-of-love-cheating-and-long-lasting-rela
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Love's Instant Brain Spark 00:12:11
Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly.
Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show.
Today is all about love what it does to our brain, why it makes us crazy, and how to use science to help us find and, more importantly, retain lasting love, which is possible.
Yay!
And it's not just me speaking, it's my expert.
My guest today is biological anthropologist and senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, Dr. Helen Fisher.
Helen, thank you so much for being here.
I'm delighted to be here, Megan.
Thank you.
So let's just start with the optimistic note, which I've heard in your TED Talks and in your podcast interviews you've done.
Lasting love and detachment, long lasting love, is indeed possible.
No question about it that it's possible.
And we've actually proven it in the brain.
I mean, I and my colleagues have.
Now, put over 100 people into a brain scanner and studied the brain circuitry of romantic love and attachment.
And the first group were people who had just fallen happily in love.
The second were people rejected in love.
And the third, just as you're saying, are people who were in love long term.
They kept on coming into the lab and saying, I'm still in love with him.
I'm still in love with her.
And these people were all married an average of 21 years.
They were all in their 50s and 60s.
The vast majority had adult children.
And they said that they were in love.
So we put them in the brain scanner using fMRI.
And sure enough, we found the same activity in the same brain regions linked with intense romantic love that we found among people who were just falling in love.
But we also found something else.
You know, before you put people in these scanners, it's very expensive, very time consuming.
You give them a lot of questionnaires before you put them in the scanner.
And so one of the questionnaires we put, asked them to fill out was unhappiness.
And we found three brain regions linked with long term happiness.
Now, psychologists will tell you all kinds of things about what happens, you know, how to make a happy long term partnership.
All good.
But this is what happens in the brain.
We found activity in three brain regions a brain region linked with empathy, a brain region linked with controlling your own stress and your own emotions, and a brain region linked with what I call positive illusions the ability to overlook what you don't like about somebody and focus on what you do.
It's entirely possible.
In one study I did, I asked 1,500 long term married people whether they would marry the same person again.
And something like 82% said yes.
So we're always hearing the bad news.
But the problem is the spouse in the room when you do that question?
No.
But there's no question about it that people lie.
They not only lie to other people, but they lie to themselves.
But brain scanning machines don't lie.
Yeah, good point.
And you can see the activity in various brain regions as they look at a photograph of their sweetheart.
And so that's a.
Pretty convincing.
Okay.
So, in those happiness areas, does that apply to the beginning, like the romantic love and the lust stage?
Because I know we're going to get to those as well.
Yeah.
We didn't study that.
I didn't put in long term happiness questionnaires, of course, when people had just fallen in love within the last six weeks.
But you know what?
Romantic love can be triggered instantly.
It's like a sleeping cat, it can be awakened instantly.
Just like you can be scared instantly, you can be angry instantly, you can be in love instantly.
Instantly, it's a brain region that can be triggered.
But feelings of deep attachment for somebody take time, and that's I think one of the things that we really see in a long term partnership not only that feeling of intense romantic love, still.
But also feelings of deep attachment, which is a different brain system.
All right.
So I've heard you talk about those three stages, or I don't know if you'd call them stages or just sort of areas of love.
There's lust or sex drive, there's romantic love.
That's the, oh my God, we're in love, the beginning.
And then there's the longer attachment stage.
And I want to kick it off by talking to you about Bill Maher.
It's a weird place to start, but he is a confirmed bachelor, he loves women.
He talks very openly about that fact and about the fact that he's not really interested in getting married or working on sort of the long, long term relationship because he thinks the sacrifice is passion.
And it was funny because I was on a show one of the times and we were talking backstage and I was like, I really want to disabuse you of this notion.
I think there can be passion, as you would say, Helen, in attachment, you know, in the long term version.
Good for you, Megan.
Good for you.
And he didn't agree and he didn't want to hear it.
And he thought I was being holier than thou.
And I was like, Okay, wrong target.
And I kind of moved on.
But I maintain, right, that their passion can be there for all three stages.
Absolutely.
Well, first of all, very smart of you to not call them stages.
I mean, originally you said, well, they basically are brain systems, three brain systems that evolve for mating and reproduction sex drive, feelings of intense romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment.
And they're different brain systems.
They can operate together or apart separately.
But in a long term, very happy marriage, we found.
All three.
They still were deeply interested in kissing and hugging, still, at least at times, coming and going, feelings of intense romantic love and an underlying thing of deep attachment.
But I just want to tell you something about him.
I think that a lot of people won't agree with me, but in a long term, very good marriage or relationship, I don't feel you need to work.
I mean, it's very popular in America to think that, oh, you have to do all this work.
I don't think that's true.
And my colleague at the Kinsey Institute, Dr. Justin Garcia, the two of us agree that you got to pick the right person.
And if you've got the right person, and that's what he hasn't done.
He hasn't found the kind of person that, where you don't have to make sacrifices, where you're dying to get home and talk to the person.
You know, I mean, for example, I got married, what, a year ago.
Now I'm seven, I was married at 75.
So I might have agreed with them some time ago.
But the bottom line is when you find the right person, It's a pleasure, you know, and I don't know how old he is, but eventually he may well find the right person.
And I think there's tricks too.
I mean, for example, I and my sweetheart, we do LAT, living apart together.
So I have my apartment, he has his.
I see him almost every night, but a couple nights a week, I'm out by myself.
I go see my girlfriends.
I happen to love the theater and the arts, et cetera.
And he loves to read and eat pizza, and I don't.
I mean, I like to read, but bottom line is, so I mean, if you can find a person who Who enables you to be who you really are, who enjoys and loves who you really are, and lets you be yourself, you can find it can work.
It's just that he hasn't met that person yet, and he's gotten himself bogged down in, I think, a good deal of psychology that long term partnerships take work.
Yes, I tried to break through it.
And I know what he's talking about that initial swoony feeling.
But even when you are in a relationship that's a year or two, that initial swoony feeling doesn't necessarily last that long.
If nurtured, if you've chosen well, it can grow into something very exciting and that maintains the heat when you want the heat, right?
I think that's, he doesn't want to give up the heat.
And so I'm going to send this segment to him and then we'll see what his thoughts are.
Well, the bottom line is there's ways to keep the heat on, you know.
And one of them is novelty, novelty, novelty.
You know, the basic brain system for romantic love is triggered by the dopamine system.
That's what gives you the focus, the energy, the elation, the optimism, the craving for another person.
And what you've got to do is keep triggering that brain system, doing novel things together.
You know, I don't mean just swinging from chandeliers.
Take your bicycles off to dinner instead of taking the car.
Go someplace different for your summer vacation.
And this is one of the reasons that, you know, when you go and take a vacation, you can suddenly feel romance again because it's so novel.
And that novelty is triggering the dopamine system and giving you those sensations again.
I love that.
Yes.
I heard you, it was in one of your TED Talks or one of the things, talking about how there was a guy who was really, he really felt romantic attraction for this woman and she didn't.
Feel the same.
And then they went off on a business trip to China, I think.
And so he was like, This is my opportunity.
There's novelty and there's a new place.
And tell us what happened.
Oh, gosh, I love this story.
I haven't told this story in so long.
Well, it's a true story.
He was a young graduate student.
He had studied my work and that of my colleagues.
And he knew that when you do a novel thing with somebody, it can drive that dopamine up in the brain and push you over that threshold into falling in love.
So, anyway, he was going to China.
He was madly in love with another graduate student.
She was not in love with him.
And he said, Okay, we're going to go to China.
That's pretty exciting.
So, when they were in China, big hotel, he said, Well, would you go on a rickshaw ride with me?
And she said, Sure.
And off they go.
And they're wheeling through the cars and the buses and the bicycles and the streets.
And she's, you know, squealing with enjoyment and holding on to his arm.
And he kept on thinking, Oh, You know, this will do it.
This is going to drive up the dopamine in her head, and she'll get off of this rickshaw and be thrilled with me.
She'll fall in love with me.
So they get off the rickshaw.
She throws her arms up.
She says, Wasn't that wonderful?
And wasn't that rickshaw driver handsome?
So the bottom line is, you can trigger this novelty, but you got to have it focused on the right person.
It's not necessarily going to come your way, but it's a good thing to remember if you're in a committed relationship, too, that that novelty can have the same effect on you and your partner.
You say it could be as simple as.
Picking a new recipe and cooking together.
As you say, it doesn't have to be anything.
But I will tell you, having listened, I've been neck deep in Helen Fisher for a couple of weeks now, and I did buy myself some saucy new things from my husband, and you were not wrong.
Oh, terrific, Nick.
We've been married going on 14 years now.
Tonight's Valentine's Day, of course, and I told my new husband to show up in a tuxedo.
Wow.
Well, I love it.
So this reminds me of something you wrote during COVID, and it was about how to keep How to keep things fresh while you're in quarantine.
But I thought all of your suggestions could work.
Thankfully, we're out of that period.
Could work at any point in a relationship about how to keep it fresh, how to keep it novel.
And this could be for people who are dating a couple of years too.
It's just sort of newness at a moment's notice, newness without that much effort.
Can you tick off some of those things that were in your, I think it was in the Times, it was a column you had?
Oh, sure.
If I could remember them all, you might know better than me.
Well, there were some card games and some like word games, you know, like Remember When.
Absolutely.
Play hard.
You know, when you play with somebody, you're driving dopamine up in the brain and triggering feelings of optimism, focus, motivation, and energy.
So, sure.
Well, first of all, even if you live in a very small place, you've got to find A part of the room, a part of the house that's yours, so that you can get away from the relationship for a period of time and come back to it.
I would also say don't show up in your sweatpants for dinner.
Eat in different parts of the house.
Finding Your Private Space 00:03:39
Learn to cook new things together.
Go out and figure out the garden in a different way.
Definitely play games together.
Have a comedy night.
Have a dress up night.
Make love in different parts of the house or a different.
You know, a different place.
Novelty, novelty, novelty.
And surprise, read a different book and come to the table and talk to them about something or her about something that's new and interesting and different.
Find different kinds of things to watch together on television.
So, you know, it's all possible.
I mean, the brain is easily tricked.
Yeah.
And it's not that hard.
I'll tell you, we do in my family, we do, you know, all five of us, we'll do a wig night at random and everybody can show.
I was a crazy collection of like just fun wigs, different colors and all that.
And then we'll do a hat night, and we'll do a costume night, we'll do a karaoke night, but just random.
And that sort of keeps the whole family in on it.
And it also introduces like just a new element.
Every night can be, not every night, but more nights than normal, can be celebratory, fun, a little getaway without getting away.
I think all that helps.
And then you've got days, weeks, months to laugh about it after it's all over.
Oh my God, did you see that wig that my little girl did?
And oh, how about that moment when da da da da?
And you can play charades, it is a good game.
Murder in the Dark is one I always played as a child.
What I'm going to do tonight with my husband is play games.
What's Murder in the Dark?
Oh, Murder in the Dark.
Oh, I played that as a child.
Well, there's one person who's the murderer, and there's somebody who is the sheriff or the detective.
And everybody has a little sheet of paper, and let's say you've got seven people playing, and one sheet of paper says murderer.
And the other says the sheriff or the detective.
So, anyway, you put them all in a hat.
Everybody grabs their sheet of paper.
They all know who the detective is.
Nobody knows who the murderer is.
You turn out all the lights.
The detective leaves the room and you mill around in the room.
And of course, the murderer knows who the murderer is.
And in the dark, he stabs somebody in the back, you know, just with their fist, but very lightly.
At that point, they have to freeze.
Everybody has to freeze at that moment when the murderer.
When the murdered person gets murdered, and everybody has to freeze except the murderer who can move until the lights are turned on.
Then the detective comes in and asks everybody questions.
Everybody has to tell the truth except the murderer.
It's hilarious.
I love this.
I love a good murder.
That sounds amazing.
I love it.
I loved it as a kid.
But I love all kinds of board games too.
We play another one that's so simple.
We know it as Celebrity.
I don't know.
Maybe it has another name, but it is so easy.
All you need is paper and pen.
And each person writes down the name of five quote celebrities, but it doesn't have to be a real celebrity.
It could be, you know, your nana, but it has to be somebody who everyone in the family would know by the description, right?
So it's like just celebrities within your family or outside.
And you put it all in the hat.
And let's say I start.
I've got the hat and I've got all everybody's entries.
And I've got 25 entries in there.
I pick it up and let's say, let's say I read Madonna.
And I say, oh, she sings, you know, holiday.
She's blonde.
She wears the bras with the boobs that stick out.
You can't say her name, but you can.
And then they're like Madonna.
And as soon as they say that, you throw the paper to the side.
Marriage Living Arrangements 00:03:38
And your goal is to get through as many as you can.
I think we do it within 60 seconds.
And so you sort of try to rack it up.
Anyway, it's fun.
You go around and whoever gets it does it in there.
I think we call that a salad bowl.
That works.
Yeah.
And it's the same thing.
I'm miserable at it because I don't know that many public people.
Yours are all in the world of academia.
Everybody's like, don't play with Helen.
No, no, no, definitely don't play with Helen.
But wait, let me circle back to your marriage and your living arrangement.
I did read that.
I did read about your marriage and your living arrangement about how you have like your own separate.
I will do you and your love the courtesy of not referring you to Woody and Mia because they had a similar situation where they didn't live in the same place, but you do.
You just take two nights.
That to me does not seem like something you could maintain when you have young children like we do.
If Doug were like, I'm going to go to the other apartment for two nights away, I'd be like, oh, no, you are not.
Yeah.
You know, it's very interesting because I talked to a man who was in that situation.
He had a new baby, and, you know, and I was talking about living apart together.
And he said, Oh, Helen, if I could only have one night in a hotel room by myself and just go to bed when I wanted, eat when I wanted, and not be, you know.
And the woman sitting there, standing there listening to us said, Oh, I'm sure your wife wouldn't like that.
And I thought to myself, maybe she would like that.
Maybe she'd like to have the next night off and you take the job of being with the children.
So I think in a limited way, a little time apart.
You know, I'm an anthropologist.
I mean, for millions of years, we lived in these little hunting and gathering societies, about 25 individuals in the group.
And the children were simply handed from one person to another.
The job of parenting has become so much more difficult in our modern world.
I mean, people are so upset about single mothers.
In many respects, it's tough for a couple to raise children all by themselves.
We really did evolve in a group in which children could wander from one parent.
Role model to another.
And it took a lot of burden off of everybody.
So, yes, it's a parenting is very rewarding, but can be very stressful.
But it's true.
You raise a good point because, I mean, most of my friends in New York and I are on the older side in terms of mothering.
And, you know, our moms are either not capable of, you know, taking care of young kids or don't live in New York.
And so it's like, we don't want to.
I mean, it's just a little bit.
Yeah, we don't want to.
So you don't have that village.
No, you don't have the village.
No, you can't afford to be man down.
It's like all, it's got all hands on deck.
Now they're getting a little older, it's easier.
But certainly when they were toddlers, it was like, oh my God, dude, you're not going anywhere.
Now they're 12, 10, and eight, and it's super fun.
Oh, good.
I happen to love that age.
You know, I make a lot of speeches, and you can really talk about love and sex to people that age because they're not, they haven't turned embarrassed.
They're just curious about it.
So, you know, once they've been 13, 14, they're doing too much giggling and too much purring and too much, you know, Being embarrassed, but the young are very just very interested in.
And by the way, you know, these three brain systems, young children can be in love.
I mean, this is a brain system from the sex.
I wonder about this because they, you know, puppy love is a phrase for a reason.
Yeah, it's a good idea.
You know, the youngest person I ever met who was in love was two and a half.
The Middle Stage of Courtship 00:07:21
And his mother, every single time a particular, told me every single time a particular little girl would come over, he'd just sit right next to her and stroke her hair and gaze at her.
And then, After she left, he'd be depressed for about an hour and a half.
So it's a basic brain system.
How about any of your children?
Are they in love?
No one's been in love yet, but I will say my oldest child, Yates.
When he was about six, I'd say, he was learning how to swim or just practicing his swimming at this pool.
And there was a young, she was probably 24 year old lifeguard who was very cute.
And boy, he loved to make his swimming lessons.
And one day he went and she wasn't there.
And I said, he was so disappointed.
He's like, where is she waiting?
And I said, Geets, you really like her, don't you?
And he said, yes.
And I said, why do you like her so much?
And he said, because she looks so good.
Good for him.
Well, it won't be the first, Mama.
So that's exactly right.
Hold your hat.
All right.
So, speaking of the young people, I had a hilarious conversation with one of my staff before we started the interview about how you're going to help her redo her hinge profile for the ancient people like myself who had no idea what hinge was.
It's one of those online sites.
It's not a Tinder.
She was quick to tell me it's not Tinder.
And we're going to get into the younger folks and the dating set in 2022.
I'm so glad that I'm not a member of it.
Helen has got some thoughts if you are in it or would like to know more about what the hell is happening there.
Very happy to have with us today biological anthropologist, I'll get it again, and senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, Dr. Helen Fisher.
We'll be right back.
And now, what are your thoughts?
Kicks are the grenzen of selfies.
The suit is the same as the body of the person.
I am always going to be in the middle of the stress.
And I am always going to be in the middle of the stress.
So, welcome to the grenzen of beauty.
For your boutique.
Who's Kicks Beauty Unlimited?
Okay, so let's spend a moment on the youngins because I know that you were the official or are the official sort of love consultant for Match.com.
You've got your own site, chemistry.com.
And they came to you for a reason because they thought there must be some science in helping people connect.
Now it's morphed into yes, there's Tinder, where I'm told you just go for just a hookup, there's Bumble.
Which, um, my colleague here tells me that's where you go, and only the woman can invite the date.
Uh, and then there is Hinge, where it's not just a Tinder, it's like it can be anything, but you know, she swears she's just going on there for dates and potential relationships.
Um, but there's a whole thought behind like what do you put on there, what are you looking, you know, how do you find the right person?
Um, what are your thoughts on it?
Well, first of all, uh, Tinder is not just a hookup site, that's what everybody thinks.
Um, and I would have thought so too, but the I spoke to the sociologist that used to work with it, and she reported that a good 80% of the people, even on Tinder, are looking for some sort of commitment.
And I've noticed that.
I've been working with Match, I'm a consultant, I'm not on staff, for the last 16 years.
And it's remarkable how many people really are looking for some sort of real partnership.
Actually, it's not remarkable to me, but I think it's remarkable to the general public.
So, anyway, I do study this.
And of course, for the last 11 years, With Match, I've done an annual study called Singles in America.
We do not poll the Match members.
This is a national representative sample of singles based on the US Census.
And of course, every year I create about 200 questions.
We go out and we pull them in a very good place.
I come back with thousands of data points and assemble them.
But anyway, so here are some of the things that we've been able to discover about that profile for your colleague here.
Number one, apparently about six.
Pictures of you is a good idea.
Now, I don't know about Hinge, how many they let you have or Whatever, but the bottom line is you want a picture of you that shows your background, what your interests are, maybe another picture of you at work, maybe a picture of you at play, either skiing or throwing a ball or with your dog or whatever.
And you really want a good headshot, so make an effort to get a good headshot and also a good whole figure shot.
We are built to look for certain kinds of people, and so.
Uh, you want to be careful about those things and be honest, for God's sake.
I was with a girlfriend um a couple days ago and she was on one of these sites and she was looking at a man and this man had his arm around a girl.
Now, what do you think?
Does anybody want to go find a man who's got his arm around somebody else?
I mean, it's ridiculous, right?
So, anyway, be careful with those shots a good head shot, a good body shot.
Um, let me let me jump in and ask you a question.
So many people post pictures that are way better looking than they are.
They use the filter.
They're trying to get the most attractive guy or gal possible.
And I always think that doesn't make any sense because that may lure them into calling you, but eventually they're going to see the real you without the filter.
So, wouldn't you want an accurate, you know, nice, flattering, but accurate portrayal of the way you look?
There's no question about it.
And one thing that's beginning to work against that, jeopardize that kind of conning, is the real rise of video chatting.
It's a new stage in the courtship.
Process.
In the study I did just a couple months, a few months ago during the pandemic, video chatting jumped from about 19% prior to the pandemic to about 27%.
And millennials and Gen Z are leading the way.
Over 50% of Gen Z and about 45% of millennials are using video chatting before the first date, which is really wonderful.
You know, when you're video chatting, sex is off the table.
Don't have to deal with whether you're going to kiss and hug, hold hands, money is off the table.
You don't have to decide whether you're going to go to a fancy place or just a coffee house.
And what they're reporting is that they're having more meaningful conversations, more honesty and transparency, more self disclosure, and that's men as well as women, less interested in what you're looking like.
We'll always be interested in what somebody looks like.
I mean, we are a walking billboard of who we are, and what you look like does say some things about you.
But they're much more interested now in whether you are fully employed and financially stable.
So, bottom line is this thing of fancy photos that are not.
Real you.
They may well be a part of the past and not the future.
And now, really, all you've shown is your insecurity, which is not really what you want to lead with.
I will say, though, that, you know, I mean, people hate it when I say this.
And, you know, courtship is really not about honesty, it's about winning.
Choosing Partners Beyond Looks 00:13:32
And it's amazing.
I've watched 40,000 people lie to me.
Women lie about their weight and their age, men lie about their height and their financial status.
But anyway, so get those pictures right.
Another thing is, Definitely work on that profile of who you are and what you want.
It's not true that people are looking at just the pictures.
In my study with Match, 68% of single centers really did study that profile.
And the one thing you want to be optimistic, nobody likes depressed people.
That's for openers.
But you also want to be forget sex, no discussions of sex.
Forget the cliches that everybody wants somebody who can walk on the beach and have wine by the fire.
Forget it.
Details, details, details.
Instead of, oh, I had a wonderful day yesterday, say, oh, yesterday was great.
I hopped on my bike, I could feel the wind in my air, I went through the park and the leaves were all scattering.
I stopped for a cup of mochuccino or whatever.
I mean, details, details, details.
Be optimistic and be honest about what you're really looking for.
Instead of saying, I like classical music, say, I just love Beethoven's Fourth Symphony, or I just really like hip hop, or I really, you know, details, be honest.
And also, instead of saying, I'm looking for someone who, use the word you.
I hope that you will be thus and such.
And, you know, and if you can be funny, by the way, I mean, laughter drives up that dopamine system and gives you real feelings of enthusiasm, optimism, energy, focus, motivation.
That's so good.
In fact, yes.
Yeah.
What were you going to say, in fact, yesterday?
Go ahead.
Oh, I was, I was, I went, I was, you know, a girlfriend came to me.
And as I said, she was looking through these alternatives of men.
And one of them said, you know, I don't like cilantro.
I started to laugh.
I mean, that's hilarious.
I get it.
It tastes weird.
Yeah.
And she said, Well, I do like cilantro.
And so maybe it's not going to be a good match.
I said, Oh, give me a break, man.
You can work this through, you know.
He's trying to give you a chuckle.
Yeah, exactly.
And I said to her, I tell her right back, I love cilantro.
Do you think this can work?
Maybe we should try it.
You know, something this clever that perks their energy.
But you know what?
There's two problems with the internet dating, there's nothing wrong with these sites.
All they are is introducing sites.
All they do is introduce you.
But the problem is they're so new that we don't know how to use them.
And the first big problem, and tell your colleague, is don't binge.
The problem is that the brain can only cope with about five to nine options.
We're not built for a million different options.
And what these people do is they go look, look, look, look, and they keep going.
And after about nine options, they can't even remember who these people are.
And they find nobody.
So the bottom line is, after you've met nine people, and I mean met either in person or through video chatting, who are within your ballpark at all, get off the site and focus on one of them, at least one of them more, because all the data show that the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them.
That's number one.
Don't binge.
Number two, think of reasons to say yes.
Just because he likes cilantro and you don't, It's not, don't give up if he likes cats and you like dogs.
The problem is that when you first meet somebody, you know so little about them that you overweight what you do know.
And that can get you zooming into triggering romantic love or it can get you zooming into saying, never worked for me.
So the bottom line is, overlook the negative.
We've got a huge brain region linked with what's called negativity bias.
We remember the negative.
And that has been adaptive for millions of years.
It was adaptive to remember.
It's nice to remember who likes you, but if you don't remember who doesn't like you, you could die.
So we remember the negative in almost all kinds of circumstances.
Overlook it.
Positive illusions.
Focus on what you do like and don't bench.
And he, she is out there, by the way.
And speaking of the positive illusions, you were saying that when we were talking about the more enduring attachment as an important thing.
So that's basically yes, there's always going to be something in your partner that you don't adore, that no one comes to you.
Perfectly suited for you.
And it's about just redirecting your mind.
Yes, that's there.
There's no reason to dwell on that.
There are so many reasons you selected this person.
Go dwell there.
Perfect.
And that's exactly what I do.
I think, well, you know, such and such, but.
Oh man, is he funny.
Oh, he's hilarious.
He's so good in bed.
It's easy to remember that, you know, it's easy to make a good relationship.
Got to start by picking the right person.
But then I don't think it's worth telling Bill Maher that.
Well, you know what?
You mentioned about, you know, you think you know what you want.
And so you overweight the things that you know.
I remember when I got together with Doug, my husband, and Doug is my second marriage.
I had a starter marriage to a nice guy, Dan, but we weren't right for each other.
And that ended in divorce.
And we both are now happily married to other people.
So I met.
Doug.
And I remember complaining when I was first dating Doug to my then therapist, Amy.
I'm like, he's not like anyone I've ever dated.
And she's like, how is that a complaint?
She's like, how did those other relationships work out?
I'm like, you have a good point.
She said to me, you asked the universe to send you something different, you know, when you first came to see me.
It did.
Will you listen?
And I was like, oh my gosh, she's so right.
It's just a matter of.
Being open minded to this new person who's coming to me in like a totally different package and with different mannerisms and with different ideas than anything I'm used to.
That's so good.
And you know what I say?
You want a person who opens doors for you instead of closes them.
And that was the problem with Bill Meyer.
You know, he feels that everything, everybody that he's going to talk to is going to close doors.
You got to have somebody who's going to continually open doors intellectually, physically, emotionally.
In all kinds of ways.
And they are out there.
Funny too, another story about Doug when we were dating, it was like a first date.
I was like, How tall are you?
You're tall.
And he said, 6'2.
And I said, Really?
You seem taller than that.
And he said, That's because I'm actually 6'2.
To your point about the men lying about their height.
Oh, that's very cute.
It's just very cute.
I just remember when my husband, when I first got to know him, he walked in and I was playing some Beethoven.
And he said, What's that?
And I said, Oh, it's Beethoven something.
And he said, Oh, I hear he's good.
And I thought to myself, Oh, God, this guy doesn't know Beethoven?
Oh, my goodness.
And then I realized after a while, he was completely joking.
Yes, of course.
I hadn't gotten his sense of humor yet.
And he was just being droll and et cetera.
Yeah, you got to get to know somebody.
And all the data show that you get, you know, the more you get to know somebody, the more you like, but you got to give them a chance.
Think of reasons to say yes.
Yes.
Now, wait, can I ask you?
So you said you got married at age 75.
Yeah, isn't that something?
And had you ever been married prior to that?
I was married for about three months when I was 23.
And I didn't want to marry him when I went down the aisle, but I was so scared of my mother that I didn't dare.
But the bottom line is, since then, I've lived with two other men, both of them for over about 20 years.
And I was crazy about both men.
But for some reason, I didn't want to marry them.
And this one, I would have married this guy, John, his name is, I would have married him at any age.
He's the right guy.
Well, I've heard you say that you've done some studying that suggests a lot of people are living together longer in today's day and age because they're afraid.
They're afraid.
It's not because they're commitment phobes, it's that they don't want to make the wrong choice and go through the dissolution of a marriage and all the stuff that comes with it.
Was that something you could relate to personally?
Or, you know, because two 20 year romances that didn't lead to marriage, people might wonder why?
What was the choice there?
Yeah.
Well, I do want to tell you you're raising a much larger and very interesting question.
But in terms of me, the first man was 22 years older, and I already thought he drank too much.
So I thought that's not going to work.
You know, he was a fascinating guy.
I mean, and hilariously funny and extremely charming and very dedicated to me.
But I just thought the age difference was in the long run might not work.
And I put him in his grave and I was very, you know, after we broke up, he did quit drinking, which was fine.
And we came into solid friends and I buried him myself.
So it was a wonderful relationship from beginning to end, but it had a couple, you know, potholes that I didn't think I could get through.
And the second one, a fascinating man.
We saw most of the world together.
I've been to North Korea with him.
I've been to the highlands in New Guinea.
He wanted to see every country in the world.
And I've been all over the world with him, and it was wonderful.
But there were things I didn't trust.
And I would have married him.
But anyway, bottom line is I'm a happy camper, but you've raised something else that's really important.
Whereas I got it all with this one, and if it's possible, and certainly I did.
But anyway, the bottom line is.
Yes, we are marrying later.
I call it slow love.
I wrote an academic article on it.
You know, 50 years ago, people married in their early 20s.
Now they're marrying in their late 20s or early 30s.
And what we're seeing is what I call slow love this long period of pre commitment in which people, particularly the young, but of all ages, are trying things out, getting rid of what they don't want, learning more about themselves, trying things out.
I tell you, the young, I'm crazy about millennials.
As I've said, you know, they develop this term DTR, define the relationship.
They don't go into these things.
They'll have their one night stands and they'll have their friends with benefits.
But if they don't think this is going somewhere, they go, they get out.
They have that discussion to find the relationship.
They sort things out and they leave or they stick it out to go to the next stage.
So, bottom line is we're marrying much later.
And the reason that this is wonderful is, I've looked in 80 cultures through the demographic yearbooks of the United Nations.
And my data goes from 1947 to 2011.
So, whole different time periods in world history.
And over and over, the later you marry, the more likely you are to remain together.
And I also have data, not personally, but a study that I've read about 300 Americans.
And once again, the longer you court and the later you wed, the more likely you are to remain together.
And so, I really do think.
As we are marrying later and later, what I call slow love, I do think that we're going to see a continuation of relative family stability.
Did you know that the divorce rate today is less than it has been in the last 50 years?
The divorce rate is really quite low.
I mean, some people are always going to divorce.
And by the way, some people should.
I mean, if you are being beaten up every time, you know, you ought to go.
But the bottom line is, I do think that particularly the young, That the young are very serious about romance.
They want to get it right.
And they're going to marry much later.
And they're going to walk down those aisles.
When they do, they're going to know who they've got.
They're going to know what they've got.
And they think they're going to know that they're going to keep who they've got.
You've also pointed out that it's not like they're just doing a contractual approach to it.
It's not like they're being measured and they're looking at the list of qualities and they're making it.
Because I know, I've read that you say something to the effect of, Over 90% of women, over 85% of men all say if a person had everything I wanted on paper, but I did not feel in love with them, I would not marry them.
Oh, Megan, I thank you for doing your homework.
That's a beautiful thing.
Yes, those are two of my very favorite questions.
You know, I do this Singles in America study annually with MACH.
I've got data on over 55,000 Americans.
It's a huge study now.
It's an honest study, it's real science.
And those are my two favorite questions.
Would you form a long term committed relationship with somebody who you did not find sexually attractive?
That's one.
And the second question would you form a long term commitment with somebody who had everything you were looking for, but you were not in love with them?
Compromise in Long-Term Bonds 00:02:52
And what was interesting to me.
Is the people least likely to compromise were people over 60.
It's the young who are going to compromise and end up marrying somebody who they're not necessarily sexually crazy about or not in love with.
And I thought at first, whoa, this is weird.
But you know, it's the young that have to reproduce.
And if you find the perfect girl, she's very good with all your friends, she'll be a wonderful mother, you find her hilariously funny, you find her or him very interesting to talk to, but you don't have that real zip of passion.
The young are more likely to make that commitment anyway for good Darwinian evolutionary reasons.
You've got to pick a partner who can, you know, who can give you healthy babies and help you raise them.
That is a good point.
I have to round back to one awkward statement that I just got to follow up on.
Forgive me.
When you say you buried your first partner there yourself, that you literally put him in his grave, you don't like, you just mean you were with him when he died and you took care of the funeral arrangement?
I scattered his ashes too.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
So there was like, you were, yeah, hands on.
Yeah, hands on.
It was very strange.
I cannot tell you how bizarre it is because his daughter wanted to scatter some too.
And so she came over to my house and I put some newspaper out on my desk and I dumped all these bones out.
And I looked at myself, What are you doing?
I was a pile of bones.
I think death is very arresting.
Of course, we all do.
But, you know, I mean, at least a baby gets built for nine months.
You get used to this.
But anyway, yeah, no, I adored him.
He was just absolutely wonderful.
Forgive me.
I don't mean to like, but what?
Wait, are you telling me that when they give you the ashes, if you pour them out, there's more than ash in there?
Well, yeah, little chunks of bone.
I scattered my father's ashes too.
And that was very meaningful in a trout stream.
He was a wonderful, he was in management at Time Magazine, and I adored him.
And yeah, everybody else left after the funeral, and I went and found a trout stream.
I've never told anybody this.
I mean, even my personal life.
But maybe your guests will be bored silly.
But the bottom line is, I sang a Navajo poem and I found a trout stream and dumped the ashes in.
And it was very arresting because the wind blew and the ashes sort of went into my face and hair.
Oh, Helen.
So, but anyway, the bottom line is, yeah, there's good men out there.
By the way, back to your son for just a minute, who as a young boy was infatuated with somebody at his birthday.
You know, men fall in love faster than women do.
Mate Guardians and Trout Streams 00:02:34
They fall in love often than women do.
I believe it, actually.
Pardon me?
I believe it.
Yeah.
At first, I was like, really?
But then, thinking it through, yeah, I do believe it.
When they do find somebody that they're in love with, they want to introduce them to friends and family sooner.
In anthropology, you would call that mate guardian.
But anyway, they want to move in sooner.
Men have more intimate conversations with their partners than women do with their partners.
No, wait.
But is that because, and I'm not an anthropologist, but, or as I like to say, anthropologist, but is that because, this is my anecdotal shot at it.
You know, women tend to be talkers and we have a lot of emotional targets in our life, receptacles and so on.
And we're used to just, oh, our feelings.
And men may be less so.
And so it's like, yes, I have an outlet for all these feelings.
And I don't know.
That's my guess.
But what is the reason for that?
Well done.
Well done.
I think it's true.
But women are also the picky sex.
You know, they've got a lot to lose.
I mean, for millions of years, they not only had to carry that baby for nine months, you know, in the womb, but then delivering it was very dangerous.
And then everywhere in the world, more women spend time raising children under the age of four.
Now, men also do it too.
But for millions of years, men went out hunting dangerous animals in order to come home with some food and also protected the little nuclear family and the community.
So men were doing their jobs.
But the hands on caring of very young children everywhere in the world, even in cultures where women are extremely economically and socially and sexually powerful, they spend more time with the very young.
So the bottom line is.
Every year, I do this study with Match, and every year I see that men are less picky.
Women are the picky sex for good Darwinian evolutionary reasons.
They got more childbearing things they got to do, responsibility.
All right, so now there's so much more to go over, including these are the four basic brain systems.
We're going to squeeze in a break, and then when we come back, I'm going to ask Dr. Helen Fisher about the four basic brain systems that she says will sort of classify whether you're an explorer, a Builder, a director, or a negotiator.
And there are tests to figure out which one you are.
And it will tell you about, if not who to choose as your mate, maybe how to navigate the relationship once you have chosen and to get over certain problems or to sort of work your synergies together.
It literally is science.
Sustain Deep Attachment 00:05:58
You thought love was, you know, all emotion.
It's not.
She's studying it, she's done the brain scans, and we'll pick it up there right after this break.
When we do more with Helen Fisher.
And remember, you can find the Megan Kelly Show live on SiriusXM Triumph Channel 111 every weekday at noon East.
The full video show and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel, youtube.comslash Megan Kelly.
If you prefer an audio podcast, subscribe.
And also please download on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts for free.
And there you can check out our full archives.
Some great, great history there with more than 260 shows.
So, Helen, before we get to the four sort of types of Personalities, uh, just to short form it.
I wanted to round back on the other two things that I because I really did love this, and you put it in your times piece.
Um, it was about keeping your partnership happy, and we talked about positive illusions, focus on the stuff that you do like, don't dwell on the things you don't.
That does no good.
And by the way, that's that's a key for happiness in general.
You know, every I tell my kids this, you know, whenever they get super upset about something that doesn't really matter, it's like, does that need to be your upset?
You know, is there something else going great in your life right now that you can focus on?
Because you And this is actually one of the other points.
You want them to be empathetic.
You want them to feel for people who are in trouble or in need without letting it really pierce their own heart and happiness.
It's a delicate balance.
But your other two points were you do need empathy with your partner and you do need to control your own stress and emotions.
That's a challenge for a lot of people, right?
Controlling your stress and emotions when you're dealing with the person who's not supposed to be leaving you, right?
So this is a person in front of whom you're supposed to.
Well, frankly, be your worst selves at times.
Well, I think there's more tricks to this trade.
And the other things that I would say is.
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, do you try to be your worst self around your girlfriends or do you try to be your worst self around work?
I mean, this is, you know, you've just won life's greatest prize, which is a mating partner and a life partner.
It's worth respecting that every day.
You know, as I mean, it was Confucius who said, the way out is through the door and people can take the way out.
And I do think that it's very worth just simply understanding that it's one day at a time or it is for me.
And I mean, even if you're married and with small children, It's worth really respecting this person.
But anyway, I just want to say some other things.
If in a long term good partnership, I think what I would do is try to keep all three of these basic brain systems alive sex drive, feelings of intense romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment.
So, want to keep the sex drive alive?
Have sex.
You know, it drives up the testosterone system, and you want to have more sex.
The less you have, the less you want.
The more you have, the more you want.
And sex is very good for you.
Feelings of romantic love, any kind of stimulation of the genitals that can drive up that dopamine system and sustain feelings of romantic love.
And with orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin linked with feelings of attachment.
So when you trigger the sex drive, you're not only helping with the sex drive, which is very good for the body and the mind if you like the person, but it's also good for triggering romantic love and feelings of attachment.
So we talked about it before in terms of romantic love novelty, novelty, novelty, do novel things together.
And the third, you want to sustain feelings of deep attachment with somebody.
The thing to do is to stay in touch.
Walk arm in arm, hold hands, kiss.
When you kiss somebody who you know well, it drives up oxytocin in the brain, gives you feelings of attachment.
Get rid of the two armchairs and sit on the same couch together to watch television so that you're in touch.
Learn to at least start the evening sleeping in the person's arms, which also will drive up the oxytocin.
Stay in touch, get all three of these basic brain systems going for you.
And last but not least, this is really strange, but apparently they now say this is not my data, it's good academic data.
Say nice things to your partner.
And what that does actually is it drives up the stress hormone, it reduces cholesterol, it reduces blood pressure, and it boosts the immune system, not only in them.
But in you.
So keep all three of these basic brain systems alive and say nice things.
This is what the brain says.
Now, I mean, if you want to just talk about what psychologists say, I think the best ideas are that of, oh Lord, I've forgotten his name at the moment, Gottman, John Gottman.
He says, don't show contempt, don't criticize, don't be defensive.
And don't just stonewall it and just listen and don't say anything.
So, this, but you got to pick the right person.
You can do all those things with the wrong person, it won't work.
I'll tell you what, I sent my husband a text just today that I don't think he'll mind, but I read, I just want you to know you're hot, sexy, you're smart, and I'm so glad I married you.
And he wrote back, I'm the lucky one.
Oh, wonderful.
And that's, I got the same thing from mine.
He said that he was the lucky one.
And I wrote back and I said, Man, I'm the lucky one.
You know what?
It's like, and it's not that there are no good guys out there, or good gals, because I know a lot of people feel like, Oh, shut up.
You found the only one.
That's how I felt before I met Doug.
But there are ways of picking somebody who will work for you, even in this sea of crowded people who you feel like none of them is right for you.
There's actually some science.
Explorers Drawn to Like Minds 00:04:20
Behind what might work well for you.
And thankfully, we have the woman who's done that research, Dr. Helen Fisher, as our guest today.
We'll pick it up right there after this quick break.
Are you an explorer, builder, director, or negotiator when it comes to love?
So, first of all, just set the stage.
What are these four things and how can they be useful to us in understanding?
Well, this all started, you know, when Match came to me 16 years ago and they asked me, Why do you fall in love with one person rather than another?
And I said, To them.
Well, you know, there's all kinds of things that we already know.
We do tend to fall in love with somebody from the same socioeconomic and ethnic background, same general level of intelligence and good looks and education, somebody with your religious and social values, and somebody with your economic and reproductive goals.
So there's a lot of cultural things, but you know, you can walk into a room and everybody is from your background and level of education and good looks, and you don't fall in love with all of them.
So I began to think, okay.
About 50% of who you are does come out of your biology.
I mean, we know that some people are better at math, some are better at singing on tune, some are better at shooting a basketball, et cetera, et cetera.
So I began to think to myself, hmm, why don't I take a look at the biology of personality, the second half of that puzzle?
Because people will say, well, we have chemistry or we don't have chemistry.
Are we naturally drawn to some people rather than others?
So anyway, I looked through 40 years of biological literature and I found.
All kinds of systems in the brain, but most of them keep the heart beating or the eyes blinking.
They're not linked with any personality trait.
But there are four basic brain systems.
Each one of them is linked with a constellation, a suite, a bunch of personality traits the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone, and estrogen system.
So I created this questionnaire that you've just mentioned.
It's called the Fisher Temperament Inventory.
You can get it in any of my books or even on some of my websites, certainly all over the internet.
Anyway, And people were very expressive of the traits in the dopamine system I call, as Megan, you mentioned, explorers.
These people are risk taking, novelty seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, mentally flexible people.
And they're drawn to people like themselves.
Explorers go for explorers.
The second style of thinking and behaving is like with the serotonin system.
These people I call builders.
Not a great term, but 15 million people have taken my questionnaire, so I'm not stuck with it.
But anyway, the bottom line is these people are traditional, conventional.
They follow the rules.
They respect authority.
They're detail oriented.
They tend to be religious, but not always.
Loyalty is very important to them.
And they're also drawn to people like themselves.
A good example is Mike Pence.
Another good example would be, I think, Queen Elizabeth or Mitt Romney.
They're traditional people drawn to people like themselves.
In those two styles of thinking and behaving, you're linked, they're drawn to their.
Similarity.
In the other two cases, people are drawn to their opposite.
High testosterone, what I call directors, are drawn to high estrogen negotiators and vice versa.
So, excuse me, if you're very high on the testosterone system, directors, and this is women as well as men, Margaret Thatcher is a good example.
I think Hillary Clinton actually is very high testosterone.
These people, they're analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough minded, good at things like math, engineering, computers.
Music is very spatial, and they're drawn to their opposite the negotiators, the high estrogen people who see the big picture, see long term, holistic, contextual thinkers, imaginative people, people who are good at reading posture, gesture, tone of voice.
People who are trusting and compassionate.
So, the bottom line is there are four styles of thinking and behaving.
In two cases, similarity attracts, and in two cases, opposites attract.
But the important thing is, unlike any other questionnaire on the market, this questionnaire measures how you are in all four of them and then gives you the printout.
We're not, the brain doesn't work in buckets.
Directors Seek Negotiators 00:09:37
You're not this or that.
So, for example, I am really an explorer negotiator.
And I would guess that, Megan, you are too.
But anyway, and so my husband is a, Explorer like me, high dopamine, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, works perfectly.
He's higher on testosterone, and I'm higher on estrogen, also works perfectly.
He's higher on the serotonin system.
He's more inclined to follow a rule just because it's a rule than I am.
I mean, I'll follow a rule.
I don't want to be roadkill.
I follow the rules of the road.
But if it doesn't make sense to me, I'm not inclined to do it.
And he's more inclined.
So then you have to figure out a workaround.
And one example in our life is, you know, we were going to the movies.
And I said, sweetheart, do you have any water in your backpack?
He said, Oh, yeah.
And I said, Well, we could drink it in the movie house.
And he said, No, you can't.
You can't bring food or drink into a movie house.
You better buy it at the concession stand.
I wouldn't have thought of that.
So, what do you do?
You buy it at a concession stand.
The problem is, so many people see the problems in their relationship as it's about me.
It's not always about me.
It could be who this person is.
And once you understand that, You can respect it and you can find a workaround.
Right.
Like I heard you saying in one interview if you have somebody who just never wants to leave the house, I mean, they're just agoraphobic or they just hate going outside, they love their routine, and you're more of an adventurer where you want to explore and you want to see the world and you want to try new restaurants, it doesn't bode very well.
You can try to find workarounds, but you should be smart going into it.
That's going to be a big challenge.
Way out is through the door.
I do some.
Clinical work.
I always say I'm not a psychologist, but they come to me because they want to know this material.
And this couple came to me.
They were dying to be married.
They weren't sure whether they should marry each other.
And it's exactly what you just explained.
She wanted to open a nail salon.
That's an entrepreneur.
And in her spare time, she liked to do rock climbing.
He wanted to, and she wanted to have sex every night.
He wanted to have sex every two weeks.
In his spare time, he wanted to watch television.
And he worked at one of New York's.
Airports stamping passports, which is a very rote, lack of imagination, detail oriented job.
And I couldn't see how this marriage could work.
And unfortunately, they did not marry, and he ended up coming back and finding somebody like himself.
So, yes, I've learned a great deal from discovering these styles of thinking and behaviour.
And once you understand them, you see them everywhere.
I mean, for example, with Mike Pence, I was positive that that man would go in and ratify or, you know, The electoral college votes because he follows the rules.
That's who he is.
That's what he's made of.
You know, I, so I took the test and I am a negotiator, that's my rising sign.
Really astrological.
I'm a rising negotiator, but my main thing was a director.
And one of the weird things in taking the test was I remember taking the director because the way Helen does the test is you sort of take four of them and they ask you questions that would, you know, if you have a very high score on one, that's probably going to be the one if it outweighs the other.
Anyway, I remember taking the one that seemed to be asking if I were a director, and I had extremes.
It was like no to the math, no to the science, you know.
No to being a strong decision maker, but I was really strong on some of the other categories, some of the other traits.
I'm trying to pull up what they were.
Here it is that I did agree with testosterone system, analytical and strategic thinking, 100%.
Tough minded, direct, decisive.
Yes, I agreed with all that, right?
So it was like I had a very strong pull to many of its characteristics and a very negative pull.
So I'm like, I don't know what this makes me.
Well, it sounds like you've got those traits that you are, you know, that you are strategic and.
Uh, you said tough minded, um, uh, but not good at math.
I mean, nobody has all of the traits of all of them, uh, uh, but we've got some more than others.
Wait, so am I so I guess negotiator isn't my rising.
Wait a minute, yeah, yeah, negotiator was my husband's rise, a rising.
That's it.
I was director explorer rising, and he was director negotiator rising.
Okay, explain Doug's to me because he's 67 director, and then he's like basically 60, 62, or 64 on everything else, he's just all 60s.
You know, you can have a lot of traits in each of these four systems.
By the way, I've studied, you know, 15 million people have taken this questionnaire in 40 countries.
And I've studied 100,000 of them here and there.
And I've never found two people who answered that questionnaire the same way.
And I've never met two people who are alike.
And I'm an identical twin.
And even the two of us are not exactly alike.
No two people are.
But what's really cool is okay, you're both high on Explorer.
So we're both directors.
His rising is negotiator.
My rising is explorer, right?
I think that's, have I finally shared that?
So wait a minute.
His test is right next to mine.
So that's why I'm screwing it up.
So wait, I'm looking at mine for sure.
Director, 62%.
And the next highest is explorer.
That's me.
Okay, that's you.
Explorer, director, or director, explorer.
Testosterone and dopamine.
And he is dopamine and estrogen.
And he is number one is director.
And number two, just by a smidge, is negotiator, but explorer and builder are close thereafter.
Okay.
So about 13% of people will respond quite equally on them all.
That's probably, I don't know what he does for a living, but that's probably pretty good.
A writer.
Yeah.
That's where the estrogen is.
So what's interesting is your director and his negotiator, but he's also high on, well, do you, It's two directors that could cause some trouble.
Well, so that's the funny thing.
I've heard you say that, like director, director, that director tends to want the opposite.
And we're two directors, but we're very, like the things that I guarantee you I was like, no, in, he was a yes.
I haven't seen his test, but he was good at science.
He is good at math.
He is a very good decision maker.
He's strong, like, yes, this is what we should do.
And I'm more like, I don't know, we'll figure it out.
You know, he's more like, let's make the schedule.
And I'm more like, hey, yeah, whatever.
So he's sort of more regimented in that way and strong in terms of like his approach to like, this is what we should do.
And I'm way more sort of B, like in those categories.
But like professionally, I'm very driven.
I'm very analytical.
I'm very logical.
I'm very confrontational.
I'm very direct, like all those things that we're factoring in there.
That's very cool.
You know, so somehow it balances, it works.
That's, you know, it's very interesting.
I wish you, what I'll do is I'm going to send you my second generation questionnaire because I asked you to take this questionnaire.
It's called the Neurocolor Questionnaire.
At work and outside of work.
And it'll be very interesting because you were saying at work, you're tough minded, you're decision making, you're just focused.
And that's probably why you've had such a wonderful career.
You know, but I'm not as much.
Yeah, that's right.
And by the way, I've often asked people, you know, which is the real you?
And which is the real you?
They're both real.
I don't know.
It's like I care, like the things I care are deeply about the news, but like, do I really care deeply, you know, which particular softball league the kid is in?
Nah, not really.
Like, as they get older and those things start to matter more, I'll care more.
But for the most part, like, I don't get obsessed over, you know, what Junior's going to be doing for, you know, two weeks in July.
Like, it's.
You know what I mean?
Like, I just don't put my energy in you.
I think the explorer is, you know, live and let live, you know, let's be relaxed about this, et cetera, et cetera.
But which is more tiring for you at work or at home?
That's funny.
Well, which personality style, the director or the negotiator?
Which is more, because I always ask this.
Now, for example, when I ask people at Deloitte, home is more tiring.
Because they can really be themselves at work.
I did a speech in Singapore some time ago, and it was a lot of women working for ExoNobel, which is a paint and finishing company.
And almost everybody is a real high powered engineer.
And these women said, at work, I've got to do that tough minded, strategic world, but I can really be myself at home.
So it's valuable to know which is more tiring.
I mean, we can act out of character.
Helen, I feel like I've achieved stasis on that front.
You know, I probably would have given you a different answer about 10 years ago where my job exhausted me.
It was just never stop.
It just nonstop and very demanding.
And, you know, there were, when I was on the air for that one hour, I loved it.
But all the hours outside of that were just a grind.
Now I'm in this place where it's good.
My work is not exhausting.
It's fun and I look forward to it.
Settling In Middle Age 00:05:44
And my kids have aged up.
So they're also not exhausting.
You know, like back then too, they were little and toddlers, like a four, a two, and a newborn.
That's, Hard.
That is hard labor.
So, no wonder I was so unhappy during that particular portion of my life.
Anyway, now I'm good.
Now I'm happy in both places.
Yeah, apparently middle age is the least happy.
The younger, when I've done studies of this, the very young are really quite happy and they're very optimistic.
And, you know, you get through middle age, which is very family and very demanding.
And then you get through middle age.
I'm middle age.
I'm 51.
Well, your children are growing up though now, and you're sliding into.
To more and more happiness, I would think.
Am I crossing over into elderly?
Is that what you're telling me?
No, I certainly wouldn't.
I'm a lot older than you and I don't feel even slightly elderly.
We're middle aged for a long time these days.
You know, it's just a beautiful thing.
Every age group has expanded, childhood has expanded.
Although I actually think the pandemic's changed that.
Middle age has expanded and senior citizens have expanded.
A lot of people think that middle age should now be up to age 85, unless you've got some sort of real problem.
But what's interesting is, you know, I just did this study.
With Match last August, and I found a historic change in the young.
What they are now is what I call post traumatic growth.
They have grown up.
The bad boy, the bad girl are out.
What they want now is emotional maturity.
And sure enough, in 2019, 58% of singles wanted a partner who wanted to marry.
Today, 76% want a partner who wants to marry.
Now, I think they'll still do the slow love, long period of living together before they settle down.
But I think that we're going to see more and more stability in partnerships.
No, kid, I don't think that 51 is.
I think he's still a kid.
That's fascinating, though.
So, do you think then that, you know, because we've been writing and talking about the low birth rates in America over the past couple of years, and it feels kind of pessimistic?
And, you know, you look at the younger generation like that have they given up on family?
They're just not going to get married.
They're not going to do what we all did, which is get married, have a couple of kids.
Do you believe that they will get married and they probably will have kids?
I'm positive they will get all of our data suggests that they are going to settle down.
Yes.
I do not think that they're going to have a lot of kids.
And in fact, this last, very smart of you to ask, you know, this is only a few months ago, middle of this pandemic, and we asked whether you wanted to have a partner who wanted to have children.
Prior to the pandemic, about 80% said, yes, I do not only want to get married, but I want to have children.
And just a few months ago, 61%, a 19% plummet in how many children that they want to have.
But what's interesting to me about this as an anthropologist, You know, for millions of years we lived in these little hunting and gathering groups.
Women tended to have four or five children during the course of their lives, and often, absolutely regularly, only one or two lived to adulthood.
Um, and so, uh, it was just replacement level.
Then we began to settle down on the farm about 10,000 years ago, and women's job was to have babies who could pick the vegetables, uh, you know, uh, etc. etc.
Uh, and so, um, as we move farther and farther from our agrarian background, uh, we're moving.
Forward to the past, back to the kinds of relationships actually in which women are extremely powerful, double income family, and the desire to have fewer children because people today believe that the child will live to adulthood.
The other thing is, children are very expensive these days.
I mean, you know, just even buying bicycles and computers.
But one estimate was you spend over $250,000 on a child before it goes to, I don't know whether it's high school or college, but anyway, it's very expensive.
I'm going to hazard a guess that during the pandemic, all these people got puppies.
They got a COVID dog.
They realized how hard it is just to deal with that.
And they said, forget it.
And you can't return the child.
I think they'll have one or two, but they're not going to go back to the farming life.
You know, I mean, for millions of years, women commuted to work to gather their fruits and vegetables.
They came home with 60 to 80% of the evening meal.
The double income family was the rule.
And women were regarded as just as sexually, socially, and economically powerful as men.
Then we settled down on the farm.
Men's jobs became much more important moving the rocks, felling the trees, plowing the land, taking the local produce off to market, and coming home with the equivalent of money.
And along with that, we see the rise of, with the farming tradition, the belief that a woman's place is in the home, virginity at marriage, man's the head of the household until death do us part.
You know, on the farm, what are you going to do?
You can't cut the cow in half to move it out of town.
You can't move half the wheat field out.
Of town.
And so there was a tremendous need for lifelong pair bonding.
And the farther we get away from that, the more women are moving into the job market.
As a matter of fact, of all of the current trends, that much more powerful than the trend of more technology is women piling into the job market in cultures around the world.
Genetics of Adultery 00:15:50
And that is changing love.
That's one of the main reasons we're marrying later, we're having fewer children, and we're going forward to the kinds of relationships that we had for millions of years.
Economically powerful women, double income family, fewer children.
People leaving unhappy partnerships in order to make happy ones.
So, and of course, women are more interesting than they've ever been.
I'm a real optimist about the future.
I love that.
I agree with that.
Women are more interesting than they've ever been.
They have so much opportunity available to them, so many lanes in which they can participate, and so many avenues of gaining new information.
And the more interested you are, the more interesting you become.
Up next, here's what I'm interested in cheating, right?
Why do people do it?
And is there love after doing it?
And can you fall out of love?
You know, people who have unrequited love need to fall out of love.
How do you do that scientifically?
Dr. Helen Fisher with that right after this.
Is it possible to be deeply in love and have attachment to someone and then to have romantic love with somebody else?
Absolutely.
I mean, you know, these three basic brain systems can really work together sex drive, romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment, but not always.
You know, you can lie in bed at night and feel a deep sense of attachment to one person while you feel a sense of intense romantic love for somebody else, while you can have the sex drive for somebody who you barely know.
And that's a pickle.
And we all want to walk down the aisle and sustain all three brain systems with the person you are married to or in a long term partnership with, but it doesn't always happen.
And so, is that why people cheat?
Because they feel the sex drive pointing one way or the romantic love pointing one way where they've already made an attachment?
Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
I mean, I've studied adultery in 42 cultures around the world.
And if you ask people why they are adulterous, they'll say, Well, I wanted to supplement my marriage.
I wanted to get caught and break up my marriage.
I wanted to get caught and rebuild my marriage.
I got bored when my partner was out of town.
I wanted revenge.
I wanted to solve a sex problem.
I want people to laugh at my jokes.
I feel entitled because I make much more money.
I feel entitled because I'm higher status.
I tend to work with people with my hands.
And so I get into these things.
If you ask people, there's a million, they'll all give you a different reason for why they are adulterous.
But what's interesting to me is how many people are.
Now, it's very difficult to know how many people are.
The data goes back to the 1920s when about a third of men and about a quarter of women reported that they were adulterous.
These days, it depends on how you phrase the question and who you ask.
So it's very difficult to know.
But what's remarkable is how many people end up being adulterous, even in places where you could get your head chopped off for it.
So, in spite of all the psychological reasons for adultery, I began to think to myself, well, what would be the evolutionary?
Why is this adaptive?
I mean, you know, you fall in love, you have a family, you get a good job, you get good neighbors, you've got a stability.
Why would you jeopardize all that?
And so, from a Darwinian perspective, now this isn't psychology, this is from a dark perspective, what would be the payoffs that would have evolved so that the human brain is predisposed to cheat?
And here's some of the going theories mine and others I think agree with me.
Let's go back a million years.
If a man has a wife, great, two children, wonderful, and he slips over the hill now and then and has sex with another woman and has two extra children with her, he's doubled the amount of DNA he is sent into tomorrow.
So he is one.
And of course, he's going to be passing along whatever it is in the brain.
And we now know some of those things that predisposes you to adultery.
But why would a woman be adulterous?
A lot of my colleagues say, well, you know, men aren't, women aren't adulterous.
Well, guess what?
Who are all these men sleeping with?
I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
But the bottom line is that actually the data today shows that people under 40 women are just as adulterous as men.
So, why would a woman a million years ago be adulterous?
Can't have a new baby with every single one she has sex with, but she could get extra support.
She could get an insurance policy.
You know, her husband is eaten by a lion and she's got somebody to step in and help her with the children that she's got.
That's good.
Or she travels to other villages, I mean, other hunting and gathering groups, and somebody gives her meat or beads or what helps to support her, makes her more healthy, more able to raise the children that she has.
Evolutionary reasons over millions of years, there were payoffs by forming a partnership with one individual and being adulterous on the side.
And I think what we've evolved is what I call a dual human reproductive strategy a tremendous drive to fall in love, form a partnership, and raise our babies as a team, and also a predisposition for the roving eye.
And of course, then we all decide whether we're going to do something about this.
What's interesting to me is.
There was a study in the 1980s, but it astonished me.
They asked the question of people who were adulterous, were you in a happy or very happy marriage?
And 56% of men said yes, they were in a happy marriage when they were adulterous.
And 34% of women said yes.
So this points to the fact that for millions of years, no matter what your psychology is, for millions of years, there were some payoffs for adultery.
And in fact, for men, it's probably more babies.
And for women, it's more resources for the babies they've got.
Leaving us with this tremendous drive for autonomy and also a tremendous drive to commit.
And then each one of us faces this and makes decisions.
Right.
So, how do you, so going, you as a newlywed yourself, and anybody out there thinking about getting married is hoping, I think, at least at the beginning, that they won't cheat, that their partner won't cheat.
How do you try to tamp down those biological instincts, needs?
You know, histories.
Well, I think a lot of people have already, these days, because they're marrying so much later, they've already gone through all that.
That's another beauty of marrying so much later.
They've learned, you know, what they're really looking for and they've found it.
In fact, adultery has decreased since their farming background because in the past you couldn't divorce.
And so men, particularly, would have a wife at home and then have another woman in the village because they couldn't divorce.
These days, a woman won't put up with that.
And so, you know, they will divorce instead.
They've got the resources to do that and will go on and find somebody that they can trust.
But what's interesting about adultery is there is some genetics to it.
Now, just because they're predisposed doesn't mean they're determined.
I mean, you can have some of the genetics for alcoholism and give up alcohol.
You can have some of the genetics for eating too much and yet you control your weight.
So the bottom line is.
Are you saying like a genetics as in, oh, his dad cheated, so he's going to cheat?
The genetics, what they have found is a certain gene in the dopamine system, the DRD47 repeat allele for anybody listening on that level.
And those people tend to be more restless and have more sexual encounters with other people.
There's a gene in the vasopressin system.
They've not only studied it in 552 men, but also in other animals, other creatures, the prairie vole.
And as it turns out, if you've got none of that gene, you can have no copies, one copy or two copies.
Those men who had no copies had the most stable partnerships.
Those who had one copy had less stable.
And those who had two copies had the least stable.
Now, this doesn't mean that just because you inherited that, that you're necessarily going to cheat.
There's all kinds of cultural things.
I mean, an awful lot of people, they're marrying much later.
They've had a million experiences with adultery and they're done.
You know, you can overlook your predispositions.
Okay, so let me just follow up on that.
So, a man who doesn't want children, right?
Like, let's say a man doesn't want children, would he have the same instinct to cheat?
As any other man, you know, who, if it's like, I need to spread my seed, you know, this biological thing, he doesn't really want to do that.
But like, because he's already an anomaly, right?
If he doesn't want children.
Well, I mean, I would guess an awful lot of people who go on adultery definitely do not want to have children.
I mean, just because there's Darwinian underpinnings, I don't think the vast majority of people who, you know, have sex with somebody after the Christmas party are intending to want to have children.
To the contrary, they're on the psychological level of, oh, we've just had a wonderful conversation and here I am, and oh, well.
I'm not excusing them, but the bottom line is just because we have some predispositions doesn't mean that we are thinking about those predispositions.
I mean, when you, most people who are adults are thinking about the moment, you know, that I'm angry at my partner, I'm lonely when he's out of town or she's out of town, I want revenge or various psychological reasons that people say that they're adulterous.
But what the issue is, so many people are adulterous in so many different cultures that There's got to have been for millions of years some Darwinian payoffs.
But I don't think that people are thinking of those Darwinian payoffs as they're, you know, hopping into the sack with somebody.
Yeah.
Well, you never know what's driving you, right?
You just never know.
We just interviewed a guy who was talking about how people don't want to express a contrary opinion in a group because they don't want to get culled from the herd.
And that's a biological thing that we've developed over years and years because it used to be very dangerous to get culled from the herd.
So you may relate to that not wanting to express your opinion, but you have no idea that.
Biological evolution drove it, you know, like that's what's actually causing it.
Our craving for sugar.
I mean, we couldn't get a lot of sugar for millions and millions, some berries and some honey, and that was about it.
And now we, so we have this craving for sugar.
And of course, we now live in a society where it's very difficult to avoid sugar.
So the brain says, oh, this is great.
Taste buzz are all there, ready to jump in and enjoy it.
And yet now it can kill you.
Whereas in the past, it probably could give you energy and keep you alive.
But I'm glad you brought up cravings and addiction because.
I know you've written a lot about this that love is biological and it's found, if you study the brain as Helen has, in the same part of the brain that drives cravings, that thirst, hunger.
It's that basic a need and a drive.
It's not just emotional, it really is physical.
Well said, kid.
I mean, really.
And the bottom line is when I was first putting people into the brain scanner with my colleagues, Lucy Brown and others, I thought it was an emotion or a whole series of emotions, which it is.
But the bottom line is when we put those people in the scanner, people were madly in love, just in love, rejected in love, and in love long term.
We really found activity in a tiny little factory near the base of the brain called the ventral tick metal area, a brain region that actually makes dopamine and sends dopamine to many brain regions.
But just like you said, that little factory that pumps out the dopamine that gives you that elation lies right next to a factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger.
Thirst and hunger keep you alive today.
Romantic love enables you to focus your mating energy on a particular individual and drive your DNA into tomorrow.
So it is a drive and it is an addiction.
And here's what I've not been able to.
It convinced any of my colleagues of it.
I think at some point it evolved as a positive addiction, giving us the ability to overlook just about everything to fall in love with somebody and send our DNA onto tomorrow.
Now, it can also be a horribly negative addiction.
I mean, people pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love.
I mean, it can be a very powerful addiction.
But the bottom line is it comes out of brain circuits at the bottom of the brain, linked with drive, with craving, with focus, with motivation, with drive.
So that leads me to how do you get out of it, right?
Like in the unrequited love situation, the husband leaves you, the wife takes off, or, you know, the case of the guy who had the gal in the rickshaw.
It was just, you just never can get her to feel it in the first place.
And you want to fall out of love.
You don't, you know, I remember watching that movie, what was it called, with Greg Kinnear and Ashley Judd.
And she wanted to fall out of love.
She went to a doctor to see if she could get her amygdala taken out.
So, she didn't have to have smells that reminded her of him, right?
Someone like you, someone like you.
So, what's can you force yourself to fall out of love?
Well, first of all, it is an addiction.
And when we put the people in the machine, we found that in all cases, a particular brain region called the nucleus accumbens, the tiny little factory in the middle of the head, linked with all of the addictions, become activated.
This particular brain region becomes activated with all the substances, everything from heroin to nicotine to alcohol.
And all of the behavioral addictions associated with gambling or sex addiction, et cetera, that brain becomes active.
So you really do have to treat it as an addiction.
You have to treat it as an addiction.
Throw out the cards and letters.
Don't write.
Don't call.
Don't show up.
Don't ask the person's friends about the person.
Go out and get some exercise.
That'll drive up dopamine.
Go get hugs from your friends.
That'll drive up the oxytocin.
Do new things.
Don't lie down.
I mean, there's somebody camping in your head.
You got to get them out.
And so you've got to distract yourself.
And one of the, I mean, in the beginning, it's important to understand what goes on.
I mean, you know, oh, by the way, you know, I mean, when you are addicted to this person, not only does this brain region linked with craving, obsessive craving, become active, but that same brain region triggers what they call, The ability to start processing your gains and your losses.
So, when you've been dumped, one of the first things you naturally do is trying to figure out, geez, what did I gain out of this?
What did I lose?
Did I lose the dog and the cat?
Did I lose children?
Did I lose money?
Did I lose neighbors?
What do I do at Thanksgiving, at the holidays?
You're trying to assess the situation.
But at some point, you've got to build a narrative, whether it's true or not, so that you've got your story and so that you can then throw it out.
So, I would treat it as an addiction.
And I would build the story, but at some point, you've got to give the story up.
You know, I know one time I got dumped, and friends were very sweet.
They kept on asking, How are you feeling?
And after a while, I realized, You know, every time I talk about this again, I'm just raising the ghost.
So at some point, you have to move on.
Treating Love Like Addiction 00:09:47
And the bottom line is, we have proven that time heals.
When we put people who are rejected in love into the brain scanner, those who Have been rejected about 17 months ago, as opposed to six months ago, showed less and less activity in a brain region linked with attachment.
So time does heal, but you have to help yourself out by treating it seriously as an addiction.
As I say, they actually may, now that I think of it, be from that very movie I just referenced.
They say, Time heals all wounds and time wounds all heals.
We put the little brain scan actually up on the screen.
I just want to tell the audience who are going to watch this on YouTube what they're seeing.
So it shows like a flare up in the brain.
Both of these are of a brain that's in love, A and B.
And you can see sort of some firing up going on in both sides.
And let's see, the one on the left shows ventral.
Tegmental area on the left and the caudate nucleus on the right.
Heightened activity in the VTA, in particular, has been associated with all sorts of addictions nicotine, alcohol, heroin, and so on.
Each dose causing a fresh spike of dopamine.
So, that brings us to the chemical manipulation we already do of some of these things, whether it's drinking or cocaine or, I mean, the serious drugs, heroin, and so on.
And then, separately, but maybe not unrelated.
Antidepressants and the self medicating that people do.
So, can you talk about how those affect the brain chemistry and may interfere with our ability, indeed, to love?
That's one of the most important questions that anybody ever asked me, and they rarely do.
You know, when you're madly in love, that little ventral take mental area, the VTA, is making dopamine and pumping it out and sending it to many brain regions, giving you that elation, giddiness, euphoria, sleeplessness.
Um, intrusive thinking about the person, high motivation to win them, uh, sexual craving, etc. etc.
And when you take an SSRI, uh, serotonin, uh, you're uh, you know, like Lexapro or Paxil, some of the older ones, you're driving up the serotonin system, and serotonin has a negative correlation with the dopamine system.
So the dopamine system is linked with romantic love, and as you're driving up the serotonin system, you are suppressing the dopamine system, and so.
I think it becomes harder and harder to fall in love.
You know, when I mean, there's some people who need those drugs to get out of bed.
I'm not suggesting that these are all bad.
But the bottom line is a lot of people take them to calm themselves under difficult circumstances and then they don't get off of them.
And what these drugs do is blunt the emotions for a good reason.
If you're really struggling, it's probably very useful to blunt the emotions so you don't kill yourself and you get on with living.
But the bottom line is an awful lot of people solve their problems and they keep.
Taking the drugs.
And I cannot tell you, I have letters from all over the world all the time.
And the people will say, the last one was, I don't know, last week, like all the time.
And a guy writes, and he says, You know, I have been married for 11 years.
We have two small boys, five and eight.
We were very happily married.
My wife went back to school.
She wasn't doing well.
They put her on one of these SSRIs.
And about two months later, she came back to me.
She said, I don't love you anymore.
I want a divorce.
And then they say to me, is it the drugs?
And it could well be the drugs.
Because when you suppress the emotions, you're suppressing the ability, I think, to fall in love and to form a deep attachment to somebody.
My gosh.
I mean, that's so consequential.
That needs to be disclosed before those drugs get offered.
Well, I think they should at least.
And by the way, it also in 73% of bills, you know, kills a sex drive.
And that's a big number 73%.
Yeah, I wrote that academic article a few years ago.
It could have changed.
Now they are beginning to give SNRIs.
They're trying to drive up the serotonin, but also drive up norepinephrine.
Which will help you fill your emotions.
But the bottom line is, I cannot tell you how many letters I get from people and they don't understand it.
I mean, six weeks ago, this person was madly in love with them and now they are dulled.
And that's how long does it take?
Do you know, like if you decide to go on one of those drugs, how long does it take for it to sort of kill that center, the love center?
You know, nobody knows.
I'm the first person to say, you know.
And I would really like people to pick up on this.
It could be very easy to measure.
All kinds of people go into a therapist or a psychologist in terrible trouble.
You know, you could see what the brain is like before the drugs and then after the drugs and then after you solve the problem, you know, and you could also give them all kinds of questionnaires.
It really wouldn't be hard to really study this.
I, alas, have gone on to doing other things, but I do write about it.
And as you know, in one of my TED Talks, I do talk about it.
And I just have so many experiences with it.
I mean, I'll think of another one.
You know, it's a young guy.
He was madly in love with a woman and he was doing poorly in school.
So he got on one of these drugs, went back to her after a year and a half, said, I don't love you anymore.
I don't feel anything.
Left.
After about eight months, he got off the drugs.
He suddenly realized it was the drugs.
He bought all the roses he could carry in his arms, walked over to his house, her house, knocked, and she opened the door.
And he said, You know, will you take me back?
I think it was the drugs.
And in that case, she did.
But I mean, it's not that people shouldn't use these drugs, but they should understand okay, am I willing to jeopardize my sex drive?
Am I willing to jeopardize feelings of romantic love and attachment?
I made a major speech to the American Psychiatric Association years ago.
And afterwards, somebody, a guy, an MD in the New York Times, wrote and he said, You know, I heard Fisher's lecture.
He said, I am susceptible to depression.
The last time that I took one of these drugs, I realized that I no longer loved my wife or my children.
I realized that it was the drugs after hearing Helen talk.
I got off the drugs.
And then I'll never forget this line.
He said, My wife and my children is more important.
Next time, I'm just going to try to go through the depression without drugs.
Or find a different kind of drugs.
There's others that can be abused.
I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do study the brain.
And you know, it's so interesting, Megan.
People have not really respected romantic love as a brain system.
When I first wrote my First academic article on it, one of the four reviewers wrote back and said, You can't study this.
It's part of the supernatural.
And I thought, Hang on here.
We don't think fear is part of the supernatural.
We don't think anger is part of the supernatural.
People kill for love.
It's not part of the supernatural.
And I do think that a lot of people in the medical community are only just beginning to realize that when you give drugs, it's not going to only tamper with pain or anxiety, but also with these powerful brain systems for happiness.
Romantic love and feelings of attachment.
I mean, it's ironic, of course, because you're taking them to try to amp up your happiness.
But if they suppress your ability to love, your ability, your desire for sex, which, as you point out earlier, does all sorts of good things for you.
By the way, Helen, like Dr. Laura also says, have sex even if you're not feeling like having sex because it's great for your body and it's great for your relationship.
Then query whether it's doing more harm than good.
All right, I have a weird last question, or at least one of the last.
This love dynamic, this, you know, the firing of the brain, the good feelings, all of that.
Can it be triggered with non romantic love, like love for one's children?
You know, there's a very specific, wonderful question.
There's very specific traits linked with romantic love.
And yes, you can certainly see a new mother being focused on that child.
Intense elation, the ability to overlook what they don't like or they're worried about, obsessive thinking, craving to be with the child, highly motivated to be with the child, et cetera.
So that had a lot of the traits of intense romantic love.
The child also takes on special meaning.
They're different from any other child, they're focused on it, high energy, emotional dependence on the child.
A lot of the basic traits of romantic love you can see under other circumstances.
But there is one trait of romantic love.
That's not involved.
And that is sexual craving.
I mean, the lust part, obviously.
Sex with your two month old.
So the bottom line is the full constellation of these traits is not there.
But you know, you can sort of be madly in love with a girlfriend and be a total heterosexual, but you don't want to have sex with her.
But you just want to be a little bit more.
So this all, I mean, I think what this is leading me to conclude love is great.
Love is awesome.
All sorts of different love are important and wonderful to have in your life, but there's only one.
Sort of romantic love.
That's a special lane with the sex drive and the romantic love and the attachment.
And, you know, if done right and well and nurtured with good decisions, there's nothing else like it.
Letting Them Wonder 00:05:45
And by the way, you just said something, another thing that was very important.
I love poetry because I think it's a great artifact of the human brain.
It really expresses the emotions.
And there was an Indian poet from India named Kabir in the 1500s, I think.
And he once said, here's the quote the lane of love is narrow.
There's room for only one.
Now, you can feel attached to a lot of people.
You can have sex with a lot of people, but romantic love is focused on just one.
Great, great.
So fun to think about and just interesting to think about how to nurture it in our own lives, right?
Everybody's got it at some point or had it at some point or hopes to have it at another point, whether it's on one of these websites or someplace else.
So I think you've given us a lot to think about.
What a pleasure.
Thank you for being so open, Helen.
It's been a delight getting to know you.
Oh, you're a sweetheart.
I'll just say one thing about it.
You know, romantic love is primordial, it's adaptable, and it's eternal.
It's going to be with us a lot longer than Valentine's Day.
Amen to that.
All the best.
We didn't feel like we could end the show without bringing on my colleague, Danny Roth, who is the one whose love journey we discussed.
So, Danny, you were actually talking to Helen before the show, and then you heard her advice during the show for being on Hinge.
Again, Hinge, she's the one who educated me on this.
Danny is Hinge and Bumble and Tinder.
So, did you learn anything helpful?
Yeah, some things.
I will say she talks about activity a lot.
And if I see one more man post a photo of him on a boat with a fish, it's not going to do well.
It's not going to work.
What do you want to see?
You know, I just want to see honesty.
I want to see personality.
I don't really care about seeing you with your car or a fish.
I want to see, you know, you with your friends.
I want to see you at a concert.
I want to see you doing something that you actually enjoy and are passionate about.
All right.
Now let's do some data on you.
How old are you?
I'm 24.
Okay.
And are you in the market for a relationship or just casual good times?
I'm in the market for anything.
If it's fun and it leads to something, okay.
Okay.
If it doesn't, okay.
Do you have a certain age range you want?
Probably older.
I try to stay like 25 to 32.
Older.
That's cute.
Older than you.
Okay.
I got it.
That's good.
Okay.
And do you care, like, If he's never been married, if he's married, has a kid, you know, I mean, not married now, but, you know, was.
No, I don't care.
Okay.
So you're, so would you describe yourself as like one of those active gals or are you more like stay at home, watch a movie?
You know, what, how do you describe yourself on your profiles?
Yeah.
I'm active.
It really sucks, which I don't even know if you know this, Megan, but about four months ago, I broke my ankle.
So things have slowed down a bit for me.
So I haven't been really dating lately, but now I'm in Hoboken, just moved here.
So anything's open, anything's available.
I'm excited.
How has your job affected your dating prospects?
When you say that you work for me, has that been a plus or a minus in your world?
Well, it's so funny because my rule is don't talk politics, religion, or really family during the first date.
But the minute I bring up Megyn Kelly, everything goes out the window because obviously politics gets involved.
Yeah.
And obviously, you dump anybody who has a negative reaction.
Obviously.
Okay, good.
Just making sure.
And the next one who does that, before you dump him, ask him if he wants to come on the show.
Deal.
Deal.
I think I could do some good in reversing his feelings, his backward feelings.
Put him in the hot seat.
Yeah.
Right.
Why not?
All right.
Now, wait, let me ask you, though.
So, Hinge, is that the site of choice now?
Would you say for people your age, like respectable young women who aren't just looking for one night?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can post six pictures and then, which Helen said, six photos, and you can choose three prompts of your choice.
And they have like 75 prompts you can choose from.
Do you feel pressure to put up a bikini photo?
You know, like it's all about showing his skin today.
Yeah, I try and do crop tops.
I try not to do a full bikini, but I appreciate that as your employer.
I'm not going to not show it.
I think that, I mean, you can do what you want, but I would just say save some for, you know, the big reveal.
It's better to let them wonder a little.
I just know I'm 24 and I only can have this body for so long.
Oh, sister, you don't know how true that is.
Single tier.
Well, listen, I love you.
You're an incredibly hard worker.
You're great at what you do.
And one of the Beauties of getting asked to come on the Megan Kelly show is you get to go through Danny Roth, and it is a pleasant experience, start to finish.
Thank you, lady, and thank you for revealing so much about your own life.
Love you, MK.
Love you too, babe.
Leave me a comment in the Apple comments section.
I will read them all.
I read one today that was so amazing.
It had a reference to my favorite movie, Willy Wonka, and suggested a new tagline, which I am kicking around.
So I do love to hear from you.
Check out youtube.com slash Megan Kelly and subscribe there too, which helps us out and helps me get the product to everyone who enjoys the show.
Thank you for listening and have a great weekend.
Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.
No BS, no agenda, and no fear.
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