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Oct. 21, 2020 - The Megyn Kelly Show
01:10:02
20201021_ric-grenell-on-trump-faith-and-being-a-gay-conserv
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White Hat Hackers from Russia 00:02:59
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.
Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
Today we've got Rick Grinnell.
He is a former United States ambassador.
He's the former director of national intelligence, former Fox News contributor, which is where I first got to know him.
And he's got some fascinating insights on Hunter Biden and the media blackout on this story broken by the New York Post.
On being a gay Republican and on the DC swamp.
So we'll get to that in one second.
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And now, Rick Grinnell.
Rick Grinnell, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for having me.
State Department Concerns Over Access 00:15:09
I'm really excited to be here, thank you.
I feel like we go back so far.
I remember doing the afternoon show on Fox, and this is back before Bolton went to the UN, right?
Or maybe it was even my morning show, but it was before Bolton went to the UN as ambassador and you were spokesperson, and we were talking about Bolton as UN ambassador back then.
Yeah, a long time ago.
And as you know, I spent eight years as the spokesman at the UN under four different ambassadors.
And I really got to see the different styles of ambassadors and what worked and what didn't work.
And I felt it was a real, the best training ground is to kind of watch and learn for so many years.
And that's when you and I would talk regularly.
And you were always interested in the behind the scenes and working the staff, which is very rare for a journalist to do.
But I think it's super important.
Well, I kind of love it because you went on to become, among other things, ambassador to Germany.
And some of the pushback on your style was, wow, he's aggressive.
You know, he's really, he's.
Really upfront with his information and his demands.
And I'm like, does anybody know anything about Rick Grinnell and who his mentor was for a while?
I wasn't surprised.
Well, obviously, you were working for Trump too, and it worked out okay.
I want to start with the news that's come out over the past week or so from the New York Post, because you know something about intelligence and manipulation of campaigns, which is what the Democrats claim is happening now.
So I wanted to get your take on this reporting.
So, in a nutshell, the New York Post is reporting that Hunter Biden.
discussed leveraging his connection to his dad, then Vice President Joe Biden, in an attempt to increase his money from a Ukrainian natural gas company that he was on the board of.
It was called Burizma.
He was getting $50,000 a month to advise them on natural gas, something he knew absolutely nothing about.
It was a 100% gig to just line Hunter Biden's pockets because this old man was vice president.
I mean, that we've kind of known, and it's gross, and Biden won't answer anything about it.
And very few reporters have even tried.
So we knew all that prior to last week.
But what's come out now, according to the Post, and we'll get into the verification, is that he was pretty explicit about using his dad in order to help this company.
He talks about my guy as his dad, my guy's upcoming travels, that they need to be characterized as part of my advice, my and my partner's advice.
I need to be protected financially, regardless of the outcome.
In other words, I can't guarantee my dad.
Going to do X, Y, or Z, but like I got to make sure I get my money.
The contract needs to begin right now, according to this email.
I want a retainer in the range of $25,000 per month with additional fees where appropriate.
This is all in addition to his $50,000 a month.
So the first sort of email report that the Post is releasing shows Hunter and his buddy Archer, that was his like business partner also on the board, another American guy, were cashing in on Biden's vice presidency.
Let's just start with that.
And let me ask you whether you are suspicious of this reporting because no one else has gone with it.
besides the post, because it came from some laptop.
A guy in Delaware says was dropped off at his shop by what he believes was Hunter Biden, but the guy was always drunk, so he couldn't totally decide whether it was Hunter Biden.
And the shopkeeper happens to be legally blind.
You can't make this stuff up, or maybe you can.
And so I was like, he thinks it was Hunter Biden, but he's not 100% sure.
And the FBI sees the laptop and he retained a copy and ultimately gave it through Steve Bannon and Rudy Giuliani to the New York Post.
Okay, long wind up to ask you if you believe it.
And what do you think of it?
Well, first of all, let me start with I think people should be always skeptical of politicians, especially when we're close to an election, because both sides love to sling mud.
Both sides like to push innuendos.
And I think we don't have a fight in this country between Republicans and Democrats anymore.
I think we have a fight between Washington, D.C. insiders and the rest of America.
The rules of Washington are crazy to the rest of us.
We look at what happens in Washington and we think, how in the world could this happen?
I think that when you look at the evidence, not the spin or the innuendo, there's clearly emails showing that Hunter Biden not only was being brazen with selling access to his dad,
the vice president, but the emails show that he and his uncle, Joe Biden's brother, We're selling access and literally saying that they were saving 10% some money for the big man.
Now, I think what we have to be able to do is evaluate are these emails real?
But we shouldn't ignore the email.
We shouldn't say politics is messy and the computer, getting of the computer situation was crazy and odd, so let's dismiss it.
I think we see these emails, very troubling emails.
The media in Washington should immediately start authenticating these emails.
What we do know is that the laptop is with the FBI.
The FBI would not keep the laptop if it didn't feel it needed to be investigated.
The FBI has had this for a while.
And so to me, it's pretty obvious that these emails are real.
If they weren't real, we would have immediately heard from the FBI.
But I take the other side's position to say let's test it.
Let's look at the emails.
Let's look at the metadata.
Let's make sure.
If these emails are true, then Joe Biden's brother and Joe Biden's son are selling access at a troubling rate.
And there is some evidence suggesting that Joe Biden's Also got some money.
Now, yeah, let me just jump in.
Let me just jump in to expand on the allegations.
So, the New York Post is also reporting that Hunter Biden introduced, like, the number three executive of Burisma, this Ukrainian businessman, to the vice president while he was the sitting vice president.
And it was about a year after Hunter joined the board.
So, they ran this by the vice president's office, they ran this by Joe Biden's office, and his people now are saying, well, that meeting.
It's not on his schedule.
So, number one, you're not denying it.
Right.
You might not put that meeting on the vice president's schedule, given how hinky the connection is with his son and so on.
And number two, it is a non denial denial.
It's not on the schedule.
Well, what does that mean?
That doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And the thing that's weirdest to me, Rick, is that they haven't had Hunter Biden put out a statement or Joe Biden put out a statement saying all of these are lies.
Hunter Biden never did this.
This is not his laptop.
These are not his emails.
They're not saying any of that.
And to me as a lawyer, that has red flags all over it.
And it's because the FBI has the laptop, has not given the laptop back.
And so while the media are speculating, and I've talked to a lot of reporters who have called me to say, What do you know?
And every reporter from the New York Times to Politico to The Hill to The Washington Post who calls me and asks me about these, they feel very strongly.
That they can't report on these laptops and these emails until they feel that the emails are authenticated.
Now, I get it that you want to make sure that they're authenticated, but I think that there's a way that you can report on trying to authenticate them, trying to dig deep, educating us.
It is not acceptable to have reporters ignore the story or, as David Ignatius has done, suggest.
Somehow, that this is Russian collusion.
I'm tired of the Russian collusion.
I'm a skeptic of Russian.
It's called Russian propaganda.
They have done this to us and to every other country for a long time.
I'm not naive.
I'm clear eyed about Russian propaganda.
But there comes a point when the left is throwing everything and blaming everything on the Russians that it becomes a chicken little situation.
They're confusing the public because if the Russians do everything, then the Russians do nothing.
And I think that we're at this point where reporters have a responsibility and they're not taking that responsibility.
Megan, this is where I come back to where I originally started, which is the ways of Washington are not just the ways of Washington politicians, it is the ways of Washington journalists.
We have journalists, politicians, lobbyists, they all live in In Washington, they all go to school.
Their kids go to the same school.
They go to the same church.
They shop at the same grocery store.
These are people who protect themselves.
And we collectively call this, you know, a funny name the swamp.
But what the swamp really means is that they are in this area, a stale area, a closed off area altogether.
And there's no outside fresh water coming in, there's no outside perspective.
And I think that's where we're really in danger, where, like the Hunger Games scenario, the Capitol is doing its own thing and ignoring the people.
And this Hunter Biden scandal is yet another example where the media have decided that they're not going to turn away from the 47 year guy who's been in Washington for 47 years because he plays by their rules.
They know he will play by their rules.
But I have to say, Do we really think that Joe Biden has saved a good idea for year 48?
Do we think that in year 48 he's going to do something different?
I don't think so.
And neither do most of the American people when they look at the situation and they say, Washington, stale, got to change.
It's protecting itself.
It's the swamp.
Well, that's what's, I mean, to your point about the swamp and DC, it's like everyone knew that Hunter Biden was sitting on the board of this company getting $50,000 a month.
And some people inside the State Department actually jumped up and down.
And there's been testimonials.
That they actually went directly to the vice president to say, This stinks to high heaven.
We got your kid who knows nothing about natural gas sitting on the board collecting 50 grand a month.
It smells bad.
And now, what's happened, and everybody's shoulder shrugs, right?
Because it's going to hurt Biden potentially if you get too deep into it, and the press has no interest in doing that.
But now, what's happened through the Post is reporting that it was much worse than that, that a week before, or it was a month, no, it was a week before.
Joe Biden came out and actually pressured the Ukrainian president to get rid of this prosecutor who was looking into Burisma.
Like, there was this prosecutor over there who was investigating the company that Hunter, whose board Hunter was on.
And right before that, the Post is reporting Biden met with a Burisma advisor thanks to his son Hunter.
So, Hunter's behind the scenes making all sorts of introductions, making requests, trying to line his pockets to even more than 50 grand a month for doing all of this.
And everybody's like, Oh, well, I don't know.
Seems like Russian disinformation.
And maybe it is, but there's no curiosity to look into it.
None.
I can tell you it's not Russian disinformation.
John Radcliffe has said that with our director of national intelligence.
But this is the ways of Washington where they say, you know what?
We know that the son of a vice president is going to sell access.
These are our rules in Washington.
Everybody sells access.
So we don't have a problem with it, and neither should you.
But the American people do because this is a real problem, not just for Ukraine.
The emails show there's a whole China angle where he has been selling access to Chinese businessmen.
The reason we know about the meeting between the Ukrainian businessman and Joe Biden is because the Ukrainian businessman came out in an email and thanked Hunter for meeting Joe Biden.
So we know that that meeting has taken place.
So this is a real scandal.
And let me just finish on your point about the State Department.
The official is, his name is George Kent, and he's a career.
State Department official.
I've worked at the State Department for 11 years and I know these career officials.
George Kent is the same one who testified on the Ukraine issue when.
Congress was looking to impeach Donald Trump.
And he went and gave his testimony during the Trump impeachment.
He also has said early on, he approached the vice president, Joe Biden, vice president at the time, approached the office to say, We at the State Department, we career officials, are very uncomfortable with your son selling access.
The vice president's office told the State Department, We're not uncomfortable.
Mind your own business.
The State Department continued to raise these issues with others at the White House.
The Obama White House knew this was a problem.
And even now, we're seeing reports that when Obama was vetting Joe Biden, the banking issues, the access from Hunter, was one of the concerns of the Obama team.
And they didn't do enough about it.
The corruption ways of selling access in Washington are shrugged by those in Washington because everybody does it.
Right.
But it's disgusting to those of us on the outside, you know, who don't get paid $50,000 a month to do nothing other than sell access to our parent.
And the thing about China, I mean, that's so, I mean, I think most people's eyes kind of glaze over when you get into Ukraine and China.
But like the bottom line is what this reporting by the New York Post shows, and it dovetails on earlier reporting that is confirmed.
That's why it's so interesting.
There was a Purported email cited by the Post from Hunter indicating that he was receiving 10 million bucks a year, a fee of $10 million annually from a Chinese billionaire for introductions alone, and that the big guy, which is Joe Biden, might be getting a percentage of that.
Now, that is worth looking into.
And I realize people think Lodi Giuliani isn't to be trusted and that he might be getting used.
But these are important things to know because it compromises.
Everyone involved, including the man who wants to be president in two and a half weeks.
Conservatives and Disinformation Claims 00:14:37
And Joe Biden just continues to dismiss any concerns about Hunter, Rick, as, oh, he had a drug problem and I love my son.
Well, it's not about his son's drug problem.
Most Americans are not looking to beat up on Hunter for having an addiction.
It's what he was doing that may have been corrupt that we need to know about.
And if it's certainly, if it went right into the office of the then vice president, we deserve to have real answers.
I am very troubled by one thing.
David Ignatius in the Post wrote a piece and he was trying to spin for Joe Biden to say, yeah, corruption and access is what happens in Washington.
And that's just Hunter.
It has nothing to do with Joe Biden.
I'm very uncomfortable because the quote that David Ignatius uses from Hunter Biden, and this was many years ago, Hunter Biden admits that he is under incredible pressure.
To raise money for the family.
He says, My brother, and so clearly, Bo Biden is alive at this time.
We know that he has since died of cancer.
But at this time, Hunter says, My brother Bo is going to run for political office.
He's not going to be able to have money.
My dad is in political office.
He doesn't have money.
I have to raise the money for the family.
And then we see these emails saying, We're saving money for the big guy, Joe Biden's brother.
And Hunter Biden.
I'm very uncomfortable because I know Washington, I know the ways of Washington, and I know what's dismissed in terms of the corruption.
This is corruption, and we need to get to the bottom of it, and we only have a little while.
I can tell you this, though, Megan there are a couple of other outlets.
Who are working on bigger angles that would prove this even more.
And I believe those will come out in the next week.
Good, good.
Because you know as well as I do that, as odd as the chain is in getting this story out, it was like the legally blind computer repairman, which must be a story unto itself.
I mean, how does one make a living in that line of work when one is legally blind?
But we'll get to that another day.
So this guy has the laptop, the alleged hunter never returns for it.
The guy winds up calling the FBI.
The FBI comes and gets it with a subpoena.
He maintained a copy.
He winds up giving it to Rudy Giuliani's lawyer because he realized that nobody was going to do anything about this and he thought it contradicted some of the public narratives Biden has put out.
Giuliani, I guess, gave it to Steve Bannon, I mean, who's under federal indictment.
So it's sketchy.
I get why people are like, well, but you know very well if that same chain of custody of the story emerged in the context of a story about Donald Trump, every reporter in the country would be working their Butt off to confirm it and track it down.
And they're not.
And what we saw last week, of course.
And they would be reporting on every piece of drama and nuance before they could.
Of course.
I love how suddenly people are pretending that if you don't have 40 different, you know, legitimate papers confirming on it, no one gets to discuss it.
Bull, that's never been the standard.
Only now that it's bad for Biden, are they like, you can't even mention it.
And what the nonsense that Twitter and Facebook pulled last week in completely shutting it down, Twitter not even allowing you to.
Tweet out a link to it, freezing the press secretary's account.
The New York Post remains frozen as of this day because it's tried to tweet out links to its own story, is just fuel on that fire.
It's like it was a decision at Facebook made by a Democratic operative saying this is bad for Joe Biden, we're not doing it.
Yeah, it's scary to me when I look at the power of big tech and the exceptions that they have been allowed to get so that they can't be sued and that somehow they're acting beyond the scope of a publisher.
And I just feel like big technology got early on, they got the waivers in order to allow them to have freedom on the internet.
And they have abused the spirit of why they got the exception.
Yeah.
Yeah, because just so the viewers know, they have a protection that doesn't let them get sued for viewer comments, reader comments.
So if you go on there, you say something defamatory about somebody, that somebody might be able to sue you, but they can't sue Facebook or Twitter.
Because they're like, hey, we're just a platform.
We're not endorsing content or not endorsing content.
But man, they're really sticking their nose in content now in a way that is clearly inappropriate.
I mean, it's clearly inappropriate and it only ever inures to the benefit of one side.
Correct.
And I know personally, I was frozen out, locked out of Twitter because I shared my neighbor who came to me and said, I just got two ballots, one for my mom and one for my dad, sent to my house.
And my mom and dad have been both dead for more than 10 years in Los Angeles County.
And so he and I decided because we wanted it to be very authentic with the addresses on it so that there wasn't a question of marking out some sort of information and people being skeptical about, you know, lack of transparency or deletions, redactions.
I know about the skepticism that comes from redactions.
And so he and I decided to share the real ballot.
Twitter has community policers employed by Twitter, and those community policing individuals decided to lock me out for sharing the private information rather than take the time to go to the Los Angeles County Register of Voters.
Say, you have some dead people on the rolls.
Maybe you should do something about it.
If we're going to have community policing through the internet or through social media companies, I think they should go after the problem, not the messenger of the problem.
In a second, we'll have more with Rick Grinnell on what it's like to be a gay conservative who grew up as an evangelical Christian and is still a man of faith.
But first, let's talk about Zip Recruiter.
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And now back to the ambassador.
I think it was Dr. Scott Alice who just raised a question about whether masks are effective.
No, done.
You can't tweet that.
No dissenting viewpoints are allowed anymore, right?
It's like you're not allowed to have an opinion that masks don't work, even though that's what the WHO was saying when this whole thing kicked off.
You're no longer allowed to say that, or it's disinformation.
And the Twitter gods will slap your hand and shut you down so that you're not even allowed to speak.
The words.
So people who are looking, who have doubts, right, about the information we're getting from the government on COVID and lockdowns and quarantines and so on, they're not allowed to even get information that might also be doubtful.
You know, it's like a collective pile on to push one view and one view only.
I've spent 20 years fighting for tolerance and diversity on other angles.
And suddenly I'm now trying to fight for tolerance when it comes to being a conservative.
And having a different voice.
It's quite ironic and troubling.
You know, that's, speaking of that, you're like, you're one of those unicorns, right?
Because you're a gay Republican.
And it's like, I think a lot of people believe there aren't that many.
The log cabin Republicans would say different.
But I know this is one of your purposes right now.
You've done so much, but I know at the moment you're a senior advisor to the RNC, among other things, trying to focus on outreach to LGBTQ.
LGBTQ or BTQ voters.
And the question I have for you is whether you think there are a significant amount of them out there that are conservative or not, but still might vote Trump.
Absolutely.
You're going to, if you put three homos in a room, one of them's going for Trump.
I'm telling you right now, it is unbelievable what has happened.
I mean, I sat, Megan, in 1992 and listened to Pat Buchanan in Houston at the Republican convention working on the Bush quail reelection campaign.
And I sat there as Pat Buchanan gave an awful speech towards gays and lesbians, and basically saying we weren't welcome in the party.
And I vowed then that I would be the fighter within the Republican Party.
Party to be the consistent conservative because I am the one who is consistent when I say, keep government out of my pocketbook, keep government out of my bedroom, have personal responsibility, judge people according to what they do, and stay out of their personal life.
That is what conservatives do.
And I do have to say that philosophically, I actually think when it comes to foreign policy, which is my passion, this is also a problem of the Republicans.
They decided instead of being A country that would just defend our own national security.
We suddenly were going to go and get in everybody else's business around the world.
And we've created endless wars.
And that's where I think we got off and we've lost with John McCain and Mitt Romney and had a series of losses.
And for me, it was pretty remarkable on the two issues that I care most about foreign policy and equality, gay equality, to see Donald Trump stand on the stage.
With 17, 18 other Republicans, and say, we got to stop these endless wars.
We've got to change our foreign policy.
We need to have a strong defense capability, but be reluctant in using it.
We used to call that peace through strength.
And this is what Donald Trump has done.
And then he also, you know, in the primary, has really embraced gay equality.
He's the first president of the United States.
First president to come into office supporting gay marriage and complete gay equality.
And he came in after a burgeoning of the president.
But he came in after it had been ruled constitutionally okay.
He was the first president to come in after the Arthur.
Yeah, he had also articulated as a New Yorker, even through the 80s, where he had lots of gay and lesbian friends through the 80s.
When Donald Trump talks about AIDS, In the 80s, and what it did to New York City, and how it wiped out some of the best people in every single industry.
This is a man who fundamentally does not separate gays and lesbians from straight people.
He embraces us.
I know him well.
Well, it's certainly not that Buchanan's Republican Party anymore.
That's, I mean, obviously, Joe Biden has evolved from his prior views on gay marriage, as most of the country has.
I mean, we used to be in a very different, very different place.
Years ago.
But I think, you know, for you as who you, I think you're the first openly gay person at the cabinet level who's been at the cabinet level in the United States.
Yes.
Yes.
Correct.
Okay.
So, like, when you look appointed by Donald Trump, right.
Appointed by Donald Trump.
So, when you look at other, I don't know, it just seems to me that like the leadership of GLAAD, of these, you know, openly gay and lesbian leadership groups, they're all anti Trump and not just anti Trump, but like they're pro shaming you.
If you're pro Trump and spread the narrative that he's a bigot, he's a bigot on race, he's a sexist when it comes to women, and he's anti LGBTQ, talking about some of his transgender pushes and orders.
This is a playbook from the left.
This is what they always do.
Listen, let's talk about Vlad for a second.
He's an organization that exists to make sure that gays and lesbians are treated equally in the media.
Tell me what media property is not pro gay.
They should have shut down a long time ago.
GLAAD is done with their purpose, except what they've done is they've morphed into open borders, pro abortion, the Victory Fund, okay, the organization that exists to elect gays and lesbians.
Did you think?
Cannot get the Victory Fund endorsement unless you're pro abortion.
This has nothing to do with gay and lesbian rights, but this is part of their endorsement.
The gay left leadership in Washington, D.C. wants to keep this as a wedge issue.
They get power, money, and votes by keeping this a wedge issue.
The group standing in the way are the far left gay leadership, and they're losing the ranked file gay and voter because we see what they're doing to us.
They're keeping it a problem when The Republican Party has moved beyond.
The Republican Party has changed, and the Democrat gay left does not want them to change.
They're holding on to the ways of the past.
Home Title Lock Protects You 00:03:05
That's funny.
I mean, listening to you talk, it's similar to what we've heard from people like Candace Owens in the way she talks about how Black voters are often used by Democratic officials because they want them voting as a group.
And more and more people of color are starting to say, no, I'm going to decide for myself whether.
Being a Democrat makes sense for me.
Maybe I align more with the Republican policies and then they get shamed.
Same as a lot of gay and lesbian people get shamed if they come out, forget coming out of the closet, if they come out as something far, far more controversial than being gay, but being a Republican.
Like where you live out in California, where I live in New York, it's like you're on far shakier ground saying you're with the GOP than you are saying you're gay or you're trans or any of those things.
Correct.
And I think also, Megan, we've seen this with union voters.
We have seen union voters look at their union bosses and say, you don't reflect my values anymore.
And we're split.
This is, I go back and I really thought long and hard, this is why the leadership in Washington, D.C., the insiders, think they control the rest of America.
And the American people are fighting back.
They are saying, no, we can't be controlled.
More with Rick Grinnell in one minute.
But first, let's talk about home title lock.
I got a crash course in home title theft, and you better pray this thing never happens to you because this crime can ruin you financially.
Here's how easy it is.
The legal titles to our homes are digitized, and they're kept on government and business servers and in the cloud where they can be hacked.
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We're going to do a feature that we have on this show called Asked and Answered, where the viewers write in and they ask certain questions.
Learning From Evangelical Mentors 00:15:56
And we thought there were sort of two today that you might want to weigh in on.
And I've got some thoughts on, too.
And our executive producer, Steve Krakower, has Has got them ready.
Great.
Steve?
Rick, thanks for sticking around for our Ask and Answered segment.
Anyone can email us at questions at devilmaycaremedia.com and we're going to answer these on a weekly basis.
Two, as you said, Megan, are related today.
First from Kate Henderson, who says that she's an undergrad student at a big university in Pennsylvania and is a Republican.
She wants to know any advice on being a 20 year old Republican and not being seen as racist or getting canceled or someone who wants to go to grad school and actually get a job.
Relatedly, we had a question from someone named Tor, who says he lives in a city.
That rhymes with schmirkly.
And he says that he's a gay conservative living in a liberal city, actually, center left in some ways.
But people assume that he's on the hard left because he's gay.
Any advice on that for Tor?
I can totally relate to both of these individuals.
And I have to say that your first rule is to get comfortable with the fact that the left is never going to stop trying to pretend that you're racist, sexist, or homophobe.
That's their playbook.
And you have to stand up to that and say, that's crazy, and we can have diversity of thought, and you should be tolerant.
I think you use the diversity and tolerance argument against them.
We have raised a whole bunch of kids through high school and now in college who run out of the room with their fingers in their ears when they hear an issue or an opinion that they don't like or can't understand.
I was raised.
To sit there and listen, listen to the opinion, let that person have their time.
And then when it's your time, talk passionately or ask questions about the issue.
But we have to get back to the point where we can sit around a table and discuss issues, wait your time.
But when it is your time, speak up passionately.
Don't be afraid to have your voice, and don't allow your voice to ever be canceled because somebody else is trying to pretend like you're a racist, sexist, or homophobe.
That's their playbook.
That's right.
And I think to Kate's question, the more people who are right leaning, center right, you know, all of it's controversial now, pretend they aren't or stay, again, to borrow the term, in the closet, the more difficult it makes it for like minded people.
You know, I've told a story before, but I think it speaks volumes.
I was at Sheryl Sandberg's house out in Palo Alto after I wrote my book.
She threw a book party for me.
She's the COO of Facebook.
And all these luminaries from the tech world were there.
It was all these CEOs of major, major corporations in tech and others, just celebrities and so on.
And I was in a weird position at the time because I'd been at Fox News for 13 years, but I'd also been on the wrong end of Trump for nine months.
He was sort of going after me for that debate question.
So left leaning people assumed I hated Trump, and right leaning people assumed I supported Trump.
So both sides would talk to me.
And at the book signing, you'd get.
People coming up from the left saying, Oh, we hate Trump.
We hate Trump.
He's going down.
There's no way he's winning this election or, you know, screw Trump.
And then about every sixth person would come up and say, I'm a Republican.
Don't tell anybody.
I'm going to vote for Trump.
Don't tell, you know.
And by the end of the night, I was looking around at the Republicans saying, You should go talk to that woman in the yellow dress and that guy over there in the blue tie and that girl in the green.
You are not alone.
You should say it loud, say it proud.
It's so crazy how, if you live in a left leaning city or just consume a lot of media, which is left leaning, you are made to feel ashamed of the fact that you lean right.
And I think the universities, Kate's exactly right.
It's a scary place, but the way forward is not to.
Allow them to shame you.
It's, it's, you got to wear it loud, wear it proud.
You don't have to be in their face, but you have nothing to apologize for.
And if they don't want to let you in because you are right leaning, screw them.
I'll give you the last word, Rick.
Yeah.
I would just say I totally agree.
And what, what people need to do is feel very comfortable with having the pushback.
You, you weren't, we don't live in that world where you're not going to hear criticism for your views.
And so don't hide.
Recognize that if you want your voice, you're still going to get criticized.
So get comfortable with it.
Okay, let's talk about you and your background because I do find it fascinating that you're the son of evangelical Christians and you yourself are a devout Christian.
How were you able to maintain your faith in a city like Washington, working for administrations, not just the Trump administration, but years at the UN and so on?
How does one maintain one's faith through all of that?
Well, first of all, what you have to recognize is that I've worked in politics.
Since 1992, but I haven't lived in Washington since 1995.
Think about that.
I have always worked outside of Washington, and I find Washington to be a cesspool of groupthink.
And it's one of those cities that I hate to live in and I try to avoid at all costs.
I would say that most of my friends are liberal, and most of my family are conservative.
My family and my immediate family, we have six evangelical ministers.
And some young, some older.
My brother is an evangelical minister, nephews are, and brother in laws.
And I feel like it's a thoughtful process, right?
I am a Christian who fails every day, and thank God that there are new mercies every morning because I can get up and face the day with being.
A Christian who is forgiven, and thank God that I have a faith that allows me every day to be renewed.
And I think that's a real important aspect just to recognize that you're flawed.
And I find it to be something easy because the way I grew up, I mean, I certainly have a mother who, you know, I tell the story that I have two older brothers and an older sister.
So, me as the youngest, I was always in charge of.
Of washing dishes after dinner.
We didn't have a dishwasher.
So I would spend a lot of time with my mom at the sink.
She'd wash and I'd dry, or we'd switch, talking.
And above us was a big sign that said, Pray for the peace of Israel.
And my mother, as an evangelical Christian, always felt compelled to protect Israel, talk about Israel, and talk about kind of the biblical stories of the end times or how modern politics were playing into.
Israel.
And so I had a lot of foreign policy talks with my mom, even though she didn't quite understand she was talking about foreign policy.
But I was really trained to listen, be respectful, but have an opinion and be really forceful with your opinion, and to always make sure that it was biblically based, that you were sensitive towards always recognizing you didn't have the right answer, you weren't perfect, you were going to make mistakes.
But God loves you.
And that was kind of the basis for me going even to a place like Harvard, where, you know, it's a godless place.
And I have to say, this is going to be very controversial to say.
But even living in Europe, you know, the Europeans have mocked religion for a very long time.
They've lost a lot of their religion.
They've replaced religion with government.
And that's where socialism really comes in.
And so trying to be a Christian in Europe, finding a good church when I was in Berlin, I went to Hillsong Berlin, which was an important part of me maintaining my ability to, you know, every week be encouraged and learn and sit in a place where I could think about the fact that I am the creation.
And I have to concentrate on the creator.
These are issues that I think my parents, and to this day, my siblings and my nephews and nieces freely teach me and I learn from.
And I thank God every day that I'm sensitive towards these issues.
And here in the United States, it's the religion of wokeness people are practicing now, now that religion has been chased not just out of the public square, but out of the private sphere as well.
Can I ask you what it was like?
I'm sure you've gotten this question, but did you ever, were you hesitant?
Were you afraid to come out as gay in a family, you know, that?
That was evangelical Christian.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, I was because I grew up really learning and being taught that being gay was, I think, not only a sin, but a choice.
And so for me, it was really learning.
There's a guy named Peter Gomes.
I don't know if you know Peter, but Peter was a conservative, black minister of Harvard Memorial Church.
And talk about a unicorn.
Peter was a definite unicorn.
And I learned so much from him.
He wrote a book called The Good Book.
And it really takes people through all of the issues of our times the subjugation of women, racism, homosexuality, and dials back how both sides of the argument use the Bible to manipulate the argument.
And so, what I really came to the conclusion after looking.
Into the biblical realities of this issue is that the word homosexual was really added to the Bible interpretation in the 1950s with the King James Version.
Well, before that, if you go back to the original Greek, the original languages of the Bible, the word that was used was largely prostitution.
And so there was a difference between prostitution and homosexuality.
And so I just fundamentally believe that.
I was born gay, that I was born fearfully and wonderfully, as God says, that God doesn't make mistakes, and that I have a special sensitivity and maybe call it a gift,
some evangelicals would call it a gift, towards really articulating this bridge to the gay and lesbian community that they should look at Christianity and they should look to God and that they are loved and that these are issues that shouldn't separate them.
But historically, the church, And largely the evangelical church has been terrible towards gays and lesbians, and they've pushed them out.
But I think there's a renewal happening.
There's a change, certainly with young people, where they're recognizing that mistakes were made in the church and that they're doing good outreach.
And certainly, I love Hillsong for leading the way and having this conversation.
Yeah, and we're coming into the 21st century.
I know your mother was blonde, as a strong blonde woman myself.
Was it, was she, was your mom given that imagery you gave us of the two of you talking every night?
It sounds like you were close.
Was she, did she cry?
How long did it take her to get to the place of acceptance?
You know, this is my son.
Yeah.
I accept him and I love him.
It's a great question.
It's a great question.
It took a while.
It took time.
And yet she went on that journey.
And I think every Christian family that has to deal with this issue has to go on that journey as well.
But for me, I think what really worked was reminding my mom that I was made this way, that God made me this way, and the biblical absolutes that we were taught.
I don't believe it is true, and here's some of the evidence.
Look, I love that you argued your case.
You had your evidence ready to go and your reinterpretation of the King James like this.
It's brilliant, Rick.
Your mom must have been proud just on that level.
Well, I couldn't come out to my family until I knew that I could articulate that being gay and being a Christian was acceptable.
And to be honest, I have to tell you, like, you know, my sister in laws were better than my brothers, and my one sister in law who was a nurse.
Immediately said to me, Oh, I'm a nurse and I look at science, and it's true, people are born gay.
So I love the different approaches that everybody in the family made.
And I also gave them space to recognize they have a journey just like I do.
It took me a while.
So let me let them have a journey as well.
It's to some extent, it's crazy to be talking like this.
It's, you know, 2020 America.
But I think, and I think a lot of the young folks today are like, What?
But, you know, I think we're around the same age and growing up in the 70s and 80s.
It was just, it was a very different time.
And even the most progressive families would have had some sort of a reaction to their child coming out as gay or lesbian that probably we hopefully wouldn't see today.
So, speaking of mentors, it wasn't just your mom, but I was interested to read.
I knew about Ambassador Bolton because we were all at Fox together for a while.
I didn't know about John McCain, who you campaigned for back in when he ran against, or was it his 2000 bid against George W. Bush?
2000.
Yeah.
It's interesting to me since, of course, those two are now on the wrong side.
Well, you know.
God rest his soul, John McCain was, and I guess kind of remains on the wrong side of President Trump.
Your new mentor, I guess.
How did you square that?
Two guys who you really admired, McCain and Bolton, who, you know, there's no love loss with them and Donald Trump.
For me, it's really easy because I'm really a multifaceted person.
I pull different lessons from a whole bunch of different people.
I certainly have mentors that are hardcore conservatives and some people on the far left that I really admire.
And so I I pull out different aspects of what I admire and what I learn from people.
And from Senator McCain, I certainly learned a lot about foreign policy.
I didn't always agree with everything that he had to say, but he was really open and generous with me and willing to kind of explain and talk.
And we had a difference of opinions.
I had, at one point, was on the path to be the U.S. ambassador to NATO before I got the The U.S. ambassador to Germany post.
And I had several conversations with John McCain about NATO.
Certainly, he knew a lot about NATO.
And he very much was of the mindset that our NATO allies needed to pay their fair share.
So I think it was less about the same goal.
We shared the same goal, but sometimes different tactics.
And that was okay with me because we're all different people.
And that's something Trump has, I think, most objective people would say he's done a good job of trying to push that some of these NATO allies, including Germany, weren't really paying their fair share.
Intelligence Community Warnings Ignored 00:08:51
And needed a pony up.
And why do we have 25,000 troops over in Germany to protect them from Russia when they're not even paying what they need to pay for their own self defense, which I know you've been working on and he's been working on.
But I was wondering more along the lines of, you know.
His attacks on McCain.
He's not a war hero.
I prefer people who weren't captured.
I know you admire Trump.
So, how do you and how do voters out there, do you think, get past his willingness to say such outlandish things and get to a place of support?
Yeah.
So, I love President Trump's fight and I love his Twitter feed.
And I would never, ever say that we shouldn't have a president who fights.
I would say it this way the Washington, D.C. establishment wants Republicans to be super well behaved so that they can control us.
They want us to be super well behaved so that we go to the New York Times editorial board to make our case.
Donald Trump won because he's a fighter.
He's a bull in a China shop.
And you can criticize the broken China.
But for me, Washington, D.C. right now needs a fighter, a bull in a China shop, someone who will help bring down that system.
And so, when he ran in the primary and he articulated a stance against George Bush, Mitt Romney, and John McCain's policies, and he began to fight on these issues, there was incredible blowback.
Not only to him, I can tell you a whole bunch of people in my life who said to me, You will never work in foreign policy again because you're working for Donald Trump.
The cancel culture from Republicans within the foreign policy community for supporting Donald Trump. Was huge.
It continues to this day.
When that comes back to you, because I know now you're a senior fellow at Carnegie Mellon University Institute for Politics, and that the students there felt unsafe that somebody who had, quote, propped up Donald Trump's agenda had come on board.
And even some of the professors complained that, you know, anyone who helps execute Trump's agenda should not be welcomed at Carnegie Mellon.
What did you think when you saw that?
I will tell you that I wasn't surprised.
The tactics from the left are like that.
But I had to do a lot of Zoom calls with students who couldn't articulate a very good message.
You know, young female students saying to me that they felt unsafe with me on campus.
And I just didn't say, but what I wanted to say is you know, I'm gay, right?
You should feel really safe.
I'm probably the one person to feel really safe with.
But I just chalk it up to what has happened.
Which is, we've taught these young kids to run out of the room with their fingers in their ears instead of engaging on issues.
And it's sad to me.
And it requires, as we were talking with the two individuals who submitted questions, our answers were get tough, realize they're going to push back on you, but speak your piece.
You have a voice and don't be silent.
But I mean, they're talking to somebody with a resume like yours.
Just take your time as DNI, Director of National Intelligence.
You oversaw all.
18 agencies, intelligence agencies in the United States.
What kind of a moron would say, I don't want that person on my university because he makes me feel unsafe?
When somebody tells me that I make them feel de safe, or the other big term is dehumanized, I say, take it up with your therapist.
If you are letting somebody you've never met before make you feel unsafe or dehumanized just by their words, you've got work to do that has nothing to do with that person.
Nothing whatsoever.
So, but I do have to ask you about being DNI because for me, as your fan, I thought that was amazing.
And I thought, Okay, if somebody tapped me on the shoulder and made me acting DNI, even though it was only for a few months, what would I do when I got to the office?
And the number one thing I would do is see if they had a file on me and what was in it.
And the number two thing I would do is see what the file on UFOs said.
So.
What did you do when you first got there?
The first thing I did was ask for the Russian collusion file.
I wanted to see what was said because I could see what was being said on television, but I wanted to know what the truth was.
And that's why I became very sad.
Well, it certainly was filled with a lot of warnings from career officials saying this is Russian propaganda.
We shouldn't use it.
But those warnings were ignored.
What do you mean the dossier and all the stuff about Trump, all the nonsense that we now know is total nonsense about Trump?
Yes, from the beginning, the Hillary Clinton opposition dump, which became the steel dossier, which is all of this baloney on Trump, was filled with Russian propaganda.
And we saw it in the intelligence community.
You can be proud that you had career intelligence officials who said, this is malarkey, this is Russian propaganda, we shouldn't use it.
But the leadership of the intelligence community ignored those warnings and filed them away.
And tried to hide those warnings.
And so I first saw the file.
I wanted to really figure out what was in it.
And I next just decided to be transparent.
I think it's really important.
It's not political to be transparent, it's unique in Washington, but I wanted to share with the American people as much of the information as possible with one goal, which was to have more faith.
In the intelligence community, if the public believes that the intelligence community is being open and honest, then we are going to be better off.
And now we're full circle.
Now we're full circle, right?
Because back then, Russian disinformation was welcome.
They slapped it on the banner of CNN every other day, what was in the debunked steel dossier, which had red flags all over it right from the start.
Now suddenly it's reporting it in the New York Post and it hurts Joe Biden.
So it's a different story.
But okay, I have to ask another question because I used to.
I love this guy, Phil Houston.
He created the CIA's deception detection techniques.
He was at the CIA for 25 years, half of which he figured out whether a bad guy overseas was a terrorist, and half of which he figured out whether a supposed good guy here in the United States who was at the CIA had turned and was working for another government, which I just freaking love.
Can you imagine?
So I'm thinking about you in there, Rick, and I'm like, what would it be like to be his boss and the boss of all these other guys in the intel community, a lot of who are like, Chiseled generals and they've been through war.
Like, do you think, oh my God, this is scary?
I just can't imagine what the reaction is to having that kind of authority over those kinds of guys and gals.
Well, I think when you are surrounded with these individuals from a whole walk of life, you see it as America because, well, yes, there are those types who are the secret types and, you know, they've been through war and They are steady and weathered from war.
You also have within the intelligence community people that are moms, new moms.
You have glamorous people who you would think this is like a fashion icon, but she happens to be a CIA agent.
And then you have some real tech nerds.
Who just really know how to be cyber spies.
And so you can be proud of the intelligence community because we're a little bit of everything.
In those moments, like when you went to sleep during that time period, was it a little scarier?
Did you, I mean, you know how like, Supposed to bolt your doors, but you don't always bolt your doors.
Was that a time where everything was in full lockdown?
You and your partner were sleeping with weapons nearby.
I mean, what was it like?
Well, we had full 247 security that was quite enormous, and everything had to be, you know, highly secured and locked down with special rooms to make phone calls in.
So it was incredibly disruptive to a normal life.
I'm, you know, lucky that.
That we were able to just get through it and recognize it was a short acting time.
John Bolton's Crucial One Year 00:05:40
President had wanted to make me acting to be the director.
He asked me numerous times, and I just didn't want to do it.
I had other interests and really pushed him to allow me to do other things.
And that's the great thing about President Trump he really does listen to those who he likes and who he feels are loyal, and he works with you on what you want to do.
Demand that you do any one thing.
And so when he did ask me, though, to go in and be acting at a crucial time, I could hear it in his voice that he needed me.
And I said, yes.
Well, that was one of the quotes that jumped out at me when you were appointed temporarily Susan Rice from the Obama administration, who called you one of the most nasty, dishonest people I've ever encountered.
And I thought, wow, dishonest.
This is the person who, you know, Benghazi video is about a video.
Okay.
So I'm sure that one didn't cut too deep, but I just thought it would be such a cool assignment.
I took it as a compliment.
Somebody like her was telling me that I was the worst person in the world for the job.
I felt, well, there's probably a lot of secrets that she has over there.
She doesn't want anyone to know.
Right.
Least of all you.
So, okay, let's talk about Trump and the race before I let you go.
I'll tell you that one of your old mentors, John Bolton, came out.
And I know you've been critical of his allegations in his book about Trump and Ukraine and all that because he wouldn't say it under oath.
He said it in the book.
I get all that.
But can I just ask you because he just said, I think just today to CNN, He's not going to vote for Trump.
He says he's not going to vote for Biden.
But he said one reason he's not going to vote for Trump is that eight years could cause irreparable damage to the United States and its international relations.
He says he doesn't think we've suffered it yet, but he thinks another four years and Trump will cause irreparable damage.
What do you think about that?
And what do you think about Bolton and his 180 on Donald Trump?
Yeah.
So, first of all, I think it's important to remember because I think the media have always gotten this completely wrong.
I work.
At the UN for eight years for four different ambassadors.
John Bolton was there for one year of my eight years.
So I worked with him for only one year, but he was the most famous and he did the most.
And so people who really don't know my entire career there boil it down to just John Bolton.
But you know, I worked for John Danforth there as well, who is an amazing man who was an Episcopal minister and a real rock star when it came to Sudan and other issues.
John has a different style, and every one of these ambassadors had a different style.
I learned a lot from John Bolton, and some of what I learned is how not to be.
And John is a very passionate person who uses different tools.
And one of the things that he does is he likes to use the hammer all of the time.
And when he went in as national security advisor, he forgot that Donald Trump was the one who was elected president.
And so he worked in the shadows.
To define issues that people weren't thinking about, and he defined them his way.
And I think what the failure of John Bolton as national security advisor was that he put himself in the role.
Of making the decision, and he didn't allow Donald Trump's style to be going forward.
So, with that said, I would say that his new warning makes sense because John Bolton doesn't want an engagement with the current regime in Iran, just like he didn't want engagement with Kim Jong un.
He thinks that's dangerous to engage with these people.
Donald Trump thinks talking is a tactic, it's not a goal.
And you can sit down and you can demand action.
And demand a change in behavior by talking.
And Donald Trump is not afraid of talking.
And literally everything about John Bolton wants to go the opposite of that.
And so when he says that he thinks that it could be dangerous, he does not want to talk or engage with enemies.
Now, I know that you've been out there on the campaign trail for Trump, and I know you want him to win, obviously.
But so do your best to put that desire to the side and give me this answer as a political analyst.
What are his chances?
I mean, if you had to put money on it, do you think he'll win?
I think absolutely yes.
And here's why I've been all over Nevada, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida.
And when I look at the Republican Party, I've been on five, maybe six presidential races.
You win when you do one of two things when you have excitement with your base and when you appeal to new groups.
And I have never seen our crowds for a Republican rally.
More like America, Donald Trump has brought more Black, Hispanic, gays, and working class people into the party.
Now, many in Washington who write op eds and who control the media will try to highlight soccer moms or the typical Republican elite, we call it Never Trumpers, and try to pretend that those groups are the majority groups or that Donald Trump is losing.
The typical Republican voter.
But the numbers don't show that.
The numbers show that 97, 96% of Republicans are staying with Donald Trump.
Diagnosed With Non Hodgkin's Lymphoma 00:02:07
I think he holds by far the majority of Republicans and he reaches out to new groups, working class Americans, and that's a coalition that's unbeatable.
You heard it right here.
Before we go, can I say one thing to you?
Your listeners probably don't know this about you, but I wanted to just say this little story, which is so important to me because when I Seven years ago, got diagnosed with non Hodgkin's lymphoma, stage three, a terrible disease.
You call, I don't even know if you remember this because we've never talked about it after the initial thank you, but this is where I believe this is Megan Kelly's heart.
You called and you had one reason to call, and you said, I'm calling because I know this is going to be hard on Matt, and I want to know is there anything I can do for Matt, the caregiver in this situation?
And that spoke volumes about who you were and spoke volumes to us.
And I just wanted to relay that little story and say publicly, which I've never said publicly to you, thank you again for having such a human heart to people who are around you.
Oh, Rick, thank you so much.
I love that you guys are still together and that you weathered that storm and are more than five years cancer free.
Thank God.
I remember hearing the diagnosis and just being so scared and upset for you.
And I will say, I remember I read not long ago a quote from you about the effect it had on your life.
And I thought, that's the beautiful man I know.
You know, it was about something to the effect of how you wake up with a greater sense of purpose now and feel not only better about life, but better about death too.
Can you just?
Yeah.
I'll expand on that before we say goodbye.
I always say that I'm better because I had cancer.
I live life knowing that when you wake up and you get a new day, that it's a gift and you should embrace it and have no regrets and no fears of death.
And when you don't have a fear of death, boy, you live life a lot more loudly.
Finding Purpose After Death 00:01:33
Yeah.
Here's that.
All the best to you.
Thank you so much for being here, Rick.
Thanks, Megan.
Lots of love.
Don't miss the show on Friday.
We'll be putting out a version that morning reacting to the third and final, well, I guess it's technically the second and final presidential debate of the 2020 election season.
I'll give you all my thoughts and then we'll have our panel guests come in and weigh in with their opinions.
Looking forward to it.
It looks like this one's actually going to happen and this is the chance for both candidates to close and it's supposed to be on foreign policy.
This one could be the most important one yet.
Don't miss a thing.
Tune in to us.
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Don't forget, subscribe to the show, download the show, rate the show five stars.
Let's silence those losers who post the one-star reviews.
You know those are MSNBC watchers.
Those are not my people.
They're just getting on there and trying to know.
We have a five-star rating, but I am irritated by this.
What?
Oh, focus on the positive?
Okay, yeah, five-star reviews.
And write something nice on there, will you?
Or just something mediocre is fine too, but not nasty, because I do read them.
That's it for today.
We'll see you Friday.
All the best.
Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.
No BS, no agenda, and no fear.
The Megyn Kelly Show is a devil-may-care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.
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