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Oct. 12, 2020 - The Megyn Kelly Show
51:19
20201012_mark-cuban-on-family-social-justice-and-nba-rating
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Legacy Box Digitizes Memories 00:03:04
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
Hey everybody, it's Megyn Kelly and welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
Today, Mark Cuban.
He's a billionaire, self-made guy, made his money in the tech industry, and now owns the Dallas Mavericks.
He's outspoken on virtually all issues and you'll hear some of that today.
It got tense at times.
It was a tough interview.
But I think it was fair and I give him a lot of credit for engaging because most guys in his position, certainly in the NBA, would never have deigned to take the time.
So my hat is off to him.
Keep that in mind as you hear how this went.
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Mark Cuban, thank you so much for being here.
From Stock to King Nerd 00:09:19
Thanks for having me, Megan.
All right.
So how does a middle class kid from Pittsburgh wind up with $4 billion?
A lot of hard work and a lot of luck.
You know, I started off as that kid in school growing up in Scott Township initially that just had every little side hustle that you ever could imagine from selling baseball cards to my friends to selling garbage bags to hustling candy to buying and selling stamps at collector shows.
You name it, if there is a hustle, I did it.
So, you were the kid who was mowing everybody's lawn and delivering the newspapers and always came home from the fair with change in your pocket.
Yeah, pretty much.
I wasn't a lawnmower, but I was a driveway shoveler.
It's funny, my Nana used to give my brother, my sister, and me five bucks each to go down to the little carnival down the road because we would spend August with her in the summers in just north of New York City.
And she used to say, Megan would come home with just the $5 gone, wouldn't want any more.
Your sister would come back asking for change after two minutes, and your brother would come home with change in his pockets.
So my sister needed more money.
My brother always had change, and I wound up breaking even.
And honestly, that's how we wound up to this day.
That's how you learn, right?
That's where you develop all your initial habits.
I try to tell my kids how you do anything is how you do everything.
And it's really important to get good habits that can lead to success as you get older.
It's really true.
Was there a pivotal moment when you were a little kid that drove you to be this successful, this much, this determined?
I don't know if there was anyone.
I think it's just how my parents raised me.
I mean, my dad did upholstery on cars and, you know, always wanted to be an entrepreneur, but never could quite get there, never had a college degree.
My mom, you know, did odd jobs, never went to college.
And so they always didn't push me, but really supported me and encouraged me to try anything.
I remember I would buy and sell stamps.
And one time I wanted to go to New York and my dad had to take me, right?
Because I was, 15, 16 years old.
And he was like, Okay, I have no idea what I'm doing.
And I would take him around.
And what I would do is at these stamp shows, I would go to from one stamp collector's booth to another where they would have a dealer who would be selling these different stamps.
And I would look for the inefficiencies.
So, how one stamp dealer would gauge a stamp or rate a stamp would be different than another one would.
So, I'd buy one that I thought was undervalued and go to the next booth and sell it to somebody who I thought would value it higher.
And my dad was like, I have no clue what I just saw, but you made money, so keep doing it.
And so I think I realized then that I was going to have to make this on my own and I was going to have to figure it out on my own and that I had the ability to do it.
You were kind of a little nerd who went on to become king nerd.
Yeah, I wasn't so little, but yeah, I was a nerd.
Well, it's funny because when I see somebody like you who's got as much success in their back pocket as you do, I always think, oh, God, they probably went to Harvard or Yale or Stanford.
You know, like none of us can get into those schools without lifetime family connections and so on.
And then it turns out you went to Indiana, which I love that.
So, you know, for all the people who are feeling bad about themselves right now because they didn't go to these top tier schools or the parents who are worried their kids aren't going to get into them, what do they need to know about going to a school like Indiana?
I mean, look, you know, I went to IU, which ends up being one of the best decisions I've ever made because I saw a list of the top 10 business schools and I picked out the cheapest one.
And I'd never been to the campus, and that's how I picked Indiana.
And in terms of what people need to know, it's less the school that you go to.
And more of the effort that you make.
To me, I learned, I picked up so much knowledge about business because I was really geared towards taking business classes and challenging myself.
So I would say, you know, don't worry about the school you go to, make it one that you can afford.
You don't want to saddle yourself with a ton of debt these days.
And two, when you get there, you know, you don't have to know exactly what you're going to be when you grow up.
Try to challenge yourself and take as many different types of classes because, you know, I end up being a tech guy and I took one technology class in college and, you know, I didn't really.
Come to understand that I had a good aptitude for tech after college.
But what I really did pick up is all the language of business, accounting, and marketing, and finance, and sales.
And I think, even more importantly, Megan, I learned how to learn.
You know, the only constant is change.
And so I think Indiana really gave me a toolkit to say, you know, new things are always going to be coming at me.
And I learned how to learn new things.
And I learned that, you know, putting an effort in to read and absorb information however I could.
Was really gave me a competitive advantage, and those are the skills I think you should look for.
And none of that really applies to which school you select.
So, in a nutshell, what is the business?
What does the business do that you sold for all that money?
Oh, okay, so.
The month that so I first let me take a step back.
My first job out of college, um, when I got down to well, actually, my first job in Dallas when I came down here, um, I got a job as a bartender at night.
I was living six guys in a three bedroom apartment and then got a job during the day selling software, and that's really what got me into computers and technology.
And so I was there for like nine months before I got fired, and then I started a company called Micro Solutions where I just said, you know what, nobody really knows all this new computer stuff.
If I teach myself, then I'm gonna have an edge.
And I went and found a customer who would put the money up front for a software package they wanted to buy.
Told them if it didn't work, I would walk their dog, clean their floors, whatever it took to make them happy.
And then built that up to a company, built that up to about 30 million in sales and 80 employees.
And we sold it to HR Block when I was about 30.
And then I took a couple years off.
And in 1994, early 95, a buddy of mine from Indiana, Todd Wagner, came to me and said, You know, there's this new internet thing, and you're the technology and networking geek.
There's got to be a way that we can use this internet thing to listen to Indiana sports over the internet.
And I'm like, okay, let me see if we can make this work.
And the first thing I did was look to see if there was anybody else doing anything like that.
And the answer was no.
There were some academic things going on, but no businesses.
And so I bought a Packard Bell computer, set it up in the second bedroom of my house, and tried, you know, learned how to do internet broadcasting, is what we called it at the time.
And we started a company called AudioNet.
We built that up to where We had, I don't know, 100 radio stations and thousands of broadcasts on there.
And then we changed it to broadcast.com and added video.
1998, we went public and effectively we were the YouTube of the early internet.
I mean, we just dominated streaming.
We went public in 1998, July, and it was the biggest IPO in the history of the stock market at the time.
And then a year later, we sold to Yahoo for $5.7 billion in stock.
How old were you then?
I was just turned 40.
Wow.
I take that back about to turn 40.
So I heard you tell the story about when you saw the stock go up and you realized you were making $6 billion and that you didn't have any clothes on.
You were sitting in a seat looking at your computer.
Kind of like I am right now.
No, just kidding.
Me too.
Yeah, right.
See, you know, sometimes you just got to hang loose.
So I was just wondering, like, you know, when you, I realize it's stock and so, but like, you know, when you get that money, at some point you actually get that money.
And like, is that like, Direct deposit?
How do you get that?
So, what happened was, you know, I had been, after I sold my first company, Micro Solutions, I traded stocks and did really well.
And that helped me, allowed me to finance AudioNetBroadcast.com and own enough to really do well when we sold it.
And so, when we got it, we got stock.
And so, what happens was they literally, you know, put, you know, 1.9 million shares.
I forget the number of shares that we got, 19 million or something like that, shares of Yahoo stock.
Because I had traded stocks before, I knew that there was risk to the internet bubble, you know, that these stocks were not going to go up forever.
And honestly, I already had a B next to my name at that point and thought to myself, how much more did I need?
So I did something called a caller where I sold calls and bought puts to protect my downside.
And that's how I ended up converting all that stock into cash.
And as it turns out, when the internet stock market crashed, it, you know, I was protected.
And a lot of our employees, you know, when we had 330 employees when we sold and 300 of them became paper millionaires.
And we got, we convinced a lot of them to hedge like I did, and they protected themselves as well.
But at that point in time, once we collared it, which And by the way, it ended up being called one of the top 10 trades on Wall Street of all time.
But when I collared it, and as those callers led off, that's how I got cash in my account.
So it wasn't just like one day.
I understood like every third sentence of what you just said, but I get the basic message.
I get that you hedged, and so you protected yourself and your employees so that when the bubble burst, you guys all were still in the black.
Owning Who You Are 00:05:21
Yeah, I got it.
Okay.
So I wanted to ask you, as somebody who came from a middle class background and winds up, as you say, with the B after your name, is there any downside?
To having all that dough?
No.
Absolutely not.
Nothing at all?
Here's what I thought you would say having to wonder whether people coming into your life after you've got the B after your name are sincerely interested in you, the man.
Yeah, but you know what?
There's hassles in life no matter how much money you have.
The friends I have now are my friends from high school and college and my rugby team and guys, my roommates from Dallas.
When I first got to Dallas, they're all still my good friends.
And yeah, I've added some friends along the way, but You know, I wasn't looking for new friends.
So, what about women?
Like, when you were dating, I know you're married now, but when you were dating, did you worry about that?
Not so much worry because it was pretty obvious.
You know, when you start to date somebody or go out with somebody, and the first two things they said was, you know, I really love to just do charity work and travel.
Those are kind of my life goals.
You kind of knew.
You know, I have a good friend who I used to work at the Jones Day, and she was this like hard ass lawyer.
She was great and went to great schools and all this stuff.
And she fell in love with a guy who also worked at Jones Day, and he was also super brilliant.
On their first date, they'd been sort of eyeballing each other for a while, and they go out to dinner on their first date, and they're hitting it off.
They're both having a great time.
And she says to him at one point during the dinner, I'm going to get up and go to the bathroom.
And if you're still here when I get back, I'll know that none of the three things I'm about to tell you are deal breakers.
And if you're gone, no harm done.
We can stay friends.
The three things are I smoke, I'm going to quit.
But right now, I'm still struggling with it and I smoke.
The second thing is, I have terrible credit.
I'm going to fix it, but it's not that I don't pay my bills.
She said, it's just I pay them more on a quarterly basis.
She said, the third thing is, I know you know me as this high powered lawyer at Jones Day, but what I really want to do is be a stay at home mom.
And she got up.
She went to the restroom.
She came back.
He was still there.
They've been married ever since.
They have two daughters.
Right?
I love that.
What a great story.
That's like owning who you are.
And what perceptions are of you and just sort of disabuse you up front.
Exactly right.
I mean, and you got to be honest, then, you know, and during that dating period, I did a lot more having fun than truly dating.
But when I met my wife.
Was that a euphemism for action?
Well, yeah, it just meant that I didn't have a lot of long term girlfriends in that in between period.
Oh, man.
But when I met my wife, I was playing basketball at the gym and she was on a bike, and one of my basketball buddies dated her sister.
And he was like, You see that girl there?
You want to meet her?
I'm like, Hell yeah.
And we've been together pretty much ever since with a couple of breaks in there, but been married 18 years three weeks ago.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, I got really lucky.
Do you worry about it?
I know you do because everybody who makes that kind of dough does.
Even I'm nowhere near your level, but even just having achieved success in my own life, coming from a middle class background, I worry about it.
Raising kids who are entitled, you know?
Oh, yeah.
Who don't have to drive to work hard.
Yeah, after their health, that is the first and foremost thing that scares the hell out of me.
Literally, Megan, it's something I think about every day, except that my wife and I talk about all the time.
You know, and it's something I talk to them about.
I mean, now they're 11, 14, and 17.
My youngest son, Jake, middle Alyssa, and oldest is Alexis.
And, you know, with kids, they all have their own unique personality.
So you have to kind of tailor the message to each one of them.
But I make it really clear that there's no money train coming for them.
They're going to have to make their own way and figure out how to earn a living.
That I'd never let them fail, you know, so that they really couldn't, so they had bad struggles.
I was going to allow them to struggle, if that makes sense.
Well, how do you do that, though?
Right.
Because I think about it now.
I never had a desire just to be rich.
I just wanted to work hard and be successful.
That was the drive I had, and it worked for me.
But I don't know.
I look around, I say to the kids, you know, you like the way we live.
You better work hard.
Because, you know, I always say that my kids will say, Are we rich?
And I'll say, Dad and I are doing just fine.
You got nothing.
Yes.
I say the same thing.
Right.
But like the truth is, I will leave them something.
I don't want them to have.
To not have anything.
And I don't know about these billionaires like Bill Gates, who are like, I'm giving it all away.
My kids are getting nothing.
That seems weird to me, too.
So I take a little bit different approach than those guys.
One, because, you know, as I said, I'm most concerned about their health.
And so I really tried to keep a decent amount of liquidity just in case, God forbid, you know, knock on wood, something goes wrong with their health.
And you have to step in and it's something unique and there's not a readily available treatment.
Then that's when it's got to be all guns blazing.
And so that's kind of my save for a rainy day as it applies to their health.
After that, it's just trying to connect with them and set an example.
Particularly, how I try to treat people when we go out and they see me interact and always being nice, always being cordial, always being respectful.
Media Narratives and Business 00:15:37
Now, they see me pick on the president and politicians and referees at Mavs games, and we have discussions about that.
But generally, I really try to set an example and really communicate to them that your education and how you do to school is going to be the door opener.
Because each of you are different.
And if you want to blaze your own path, you're going to have to set your own goals and do your best to achieve them.
Yeah.
Well, it sounds like you're setting a good example.
And by the way, you're allowed to grab on all those people.
They're in the arena.
You put yourself in the arena, you know you're going to take a punch here and there.
Yeah, including me, right?
I got to take the punches too.
Yeah, absolutely.
So you wind up buying the Dallas Mavericks, and I warn you up front, I know very little about sports.
I only know sports to the extent they veer over into my news lane.
So you buy this basketball team.
Why?
My wife and I were season ticket holders, and we used to go to every game, and they were awful.
You didn't like your seats?
Yeah, but no, my seats were fine, right?
But, and I was right after we sold the broadcast.com to Yahoo, I was at the opening night of the 99 2000 season.
It wasn't a sellout.
I mean, it's opening night, we're undefeated.
I was excited, but didn't seem like there was any energy in the arena.
And I thought, you know, I could do such a better job than this.
And then it finally dawned on me that, hey, I can afford to put my money where my mouth is.
And so I reached out to a former player, Mark McGuire, who knew the then owner, Russ Bro Jr.
They connected us andor he connected us, and you know, it took just a few weeks and the deal got done.
And so, you know, from initial thought around November 1st, we closed the deal January 4th or January 8th or something right around there.
What did you tell them about it?
I love, I mean, I'm a basketball junkie, and so there's a couple things I love.
One, you know, I learned very quickly that I may be responsible for the finances, but all of North Texas truly owns the Dallas Mavericks.
It's so different than any other industry, you know, any other business I've ever been involved with.
I never got requests, you know.
Hey, my son has cancer.
Can you get a player to come visit us or call us or talk to us?
Or will you come visit?
Or unfortunately, my son or daughter passed away from cancer.
Would you mind if?
You know, Luca Dodge has signed a jersey so we can bury him in it because he was his favorite player.
Just heartbreaking things like that that you don't see in any other industry.
So, that connection to community is first and foremost.
And, you know, just the challenge of it all.
There's every season, there's, you know, 30 teams, 29 losers, and one winner.
And I've only been that, you know, walk away final winner one time.
So, you know, I love the challenge of it.
And I love the basketball side of it.
I mean, I get to go to basically my own arena before a home game.
And get out there and shoot baskets.
And to me, as a basketball junkie growing up, that's one of the coolest things ever.
And that's really how I clear my head.
Like even today, you know, I can go down to the practice court, and if I'm stressed about something or want to just clear my head or think about something, I'll just get up shots.
I'll get up there and shoot baskets.
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And now back to Mark Cuban.
My husband put on The Last Dance, you know, the documentary about Michael Jordan, and we watched that.
And I loved Michael Jordan.
I lived in Chicago during a lot of those Bulls years, so I saw that team play and wound up getting to know Dennis Rodman a little bit later in life, which is a nice thing.
He was my roommate for a little bit, which is another thing.
No, he was not.
Yes, he was.
When I bought the Maz my first year, we hadn't been to the playoffs in 10 years and had a losing record for like the last 10 or something like that.
And I was trying to do anything to win.
And so we signed him for what ended up being a total of 12 days.
And because he had had a suspended driver's license, he couldn't drive.
And so I put him in the guest house in my house until the NBA told me that it was against the rules and he couldn't do it.
So D Rod and I have been friends ever since.
He's such an interesting guy.
I asked him, you know, like, how many times have you been arrested?
It was like over 80.
And I'm like, okay.
But he's kind of a sweet soul and also the Henry Kissinger of our time.
Yes.
You know, instead of ping pong diplomacy, you know, you got North Korean basketball diplomacy.
But yeah, D Rod's got a great heart.
Right.
Who would have thought Dennis Rodman could be a critical player in forging maybe a better relationship between the United States and North Korea?
Nobody.
Absolutely nobody.
But you're right.
He's got a great heart, and I really like Dennis.
Well, so I loved Michael Jordan, like everyone in the world.
And I loved that the last dance.
I thought it was so well done, and he was so interesting.
But I wanted to ask you one of the things they highlight in that documentary is that he never got political.
even though there was pressure to do so.
And he just thought, I'm not going to do that because I know my fans might not agree with me on whatever issue you want me to push or whatever shit.
Republicans buy sneakers too.
Yeah, Republicans buy sneakers too.
Exactly.
And, you know, I like that because politics has just taken over.
It's like you can't turn on the Emmys or the Oscars or the sports games.
It's like it's everywhere.
And as you know, it's so ubiquitous just in the news.
It's really just hard to escape it now.
And that's not the way the NBA is going.
It seems like it's gotten very political.
From what I've seen, again, and I'm sort of outside your lane, but there's the big BLM logo on the basketball court down there for the finals, and the guys are wearing social justice messages on their jerseys, and they've been having some protests like the night Jacob Blake got shot.
They didn't play.
And so, what do you think?
I mean, do you think that it's appropriate to take a side on issues that are so charged?
Well, first, let's go back, right?
Let's go back to Michael Jordan's era.
Just because Michael wasn't a participant didn't mean that players weren't activists back then as well.
Right.
I mean, going back to the extent we see now.
Well, I just think, remember, there's a different media environment.
There's a huge difference between media availability in the Michael Jordan days.
That was just the beginning of cable.
Fox News only existed for half of Michael's career, right?
The last three years of Michael's career.
There was no social media.
The internet was in its infancy.
So there really weren't the mechanisms to really convey to people messages.
You know, you had to go through all the gatekeepers.
So it wasn't that players weren't active, they were in their own ways.
But now we're in a different social media environment and things progress.
You know, politics and sports have always gone together.
You know, Muhammad Ali was a champion of the world when he was Cassius Clay.
And then, you know, he was ostracized when he became Muhammad Ali.
And he was not even allowed to fight because, you know, he did not want to go to Vietnam.
And he had a lot of commentary there.
You know, we can go to the Olympics, 1980, when we withdrew from the Olympics.
So, you know, while I get your point, I don't agree that sports and, um, Politics have been disassociated, and this is something new.
It's certainly not.
Now, that's not on the court, though.
Not on the court.
I mean, listen, I'm close enough, related close enough to remember there was never a huge logo on a divisive issue on the basketball court during the finals.
Okay, well, let's talk about that.
So, you wear a pink ribbon to support breast cancer.
That's one thing.
Putting BLM in the middle of the court when it's not supported by virtually any Republican in the country, it's down less than 20% of Republicans support the group.
So, that's a different.
So, okay, so first there, when you said the group.
What group are you talking about?
Black Lives Matter, capital B, capital L, capital A.
No, okay, but who is that group?
It's a group founded by Marxists who want to dismantle the nuclear family and defund the police.
No, first, that's incorrect.
So, first of all, no, it's 100% correct.
Okay, so let's go there.
Okay, so first of all, let's talk in terms of who we support.
There's blacklivesmatter.com, and that's where you go to get the information about the organization.
Those are the people who started the hashtag.
That's all they did.
If we were supporting blacklivesmatter.com, don't you think, Megan, we would have been smart enough to put the.com on the court along with Black Lives Matter?
Come on, now you're splitting hairs.
I'm not.
No, so let's go.
So, what BLM are you supporting?
We're supporting the movement.
It's really a distributed movement across the country to try to end racism, to bring awareness to social justice issues.
And if you, and I've done this, right?
Talk to people who go that are at Black Lives Matter rallies.
And ask them who the three founders are.
They don't have any idea.
And if we were supportive of those three founders, don't you think we would have had one of them on an NBA broadcast to talk about?
You know as well as I do that the main takeaway on BLM, the main push.
This is what they say their single issue, their biggest issue is whenever you see a representative from the group, an organizer, people who go to the protests, it's one thing defund the police.
No, that's crazy.
Okay, so that's not crazy.
Trust me, I've been following every news cycle on this.
I marched with them.
Yep, that's the whole thing, Megan.
You just answered the question.
You're following the news cycle, right?
And where you get your source of news determines pretty much the perspective that people are going to have on this.
I can tell you from being in NBA meetings, right?
I can tell you from being part of the discussions.
I can tell you from talking to players.
So when I speak, I'm speaking for the NBA as an owner, you know.
And so I can tell you, it's been very clear that we're supportive of the movement.
We're supportive of trying to end racism.
We're supportive of police reform.
But you've never, ever heard us talk about Marxism.
Okay, fine.
You don't need to endorse Marxism.
But you've never seen us.
No, but Mark, to pretend that BlackLivesMatter.com or otherwise is not about defunding the police is to be dishonest.
It is.
It is about defunding the police.
It absolutely is.
And the basketball players who have spoken about this have made clear that they support that.
I mean, they've talked about how they want to defund and dismantle the police force.
Individual players can have their opinion, right?
And that's fine, right?
But me, as a governor in the NBA and having been in all those meetings, I can tell you that while we are interested in police reform, yes, and we have had discussions about police reform, yes, we have never talked about defunding the police, and they are an extreme different end.
But BLM has and devotes itself to it.
No, you're wrong, Megan, because BLM, the hashtag, BLM, the founders, is completely different than BLM, the movement.
People don't understand this distinction you're trying to make.
Again, that's why they find this logo.
Alienating.
It's not that they don't support lowercase BLM.
It's that what this group has become with the protests in the streets that have turned into riots, with bothering people at their dinner tables, making them raise a fist and say Black Lives Matter, and with this push to defund the police, which has already worked in some cities.
In New York, they took a billion bucks away from the police force to the detriment of the inner city, to the women and the children and the men who are in the inner city.
It's really controversial.
It's really controversial.
Okay, I agree with controversial, right?
So, first of all, You know, when we talk about defunding the police, that's one extreme.
Disrupting the police is a completely different issue, and trying to reform the police is a completely different issue.
Okay.
So that's.
Now, you're going to have to put footnotes on the BLM on your court.
See footnote 47 for exactly which BLM we should work on.
No, please, issue number two.
So you're raising a very good issue that, in terms of controlling the narrative, it's been awful.
And the reason it's been awful is because there is no leadership, there is no one speaking for BLM.
And this is a conversation I've had with our player.
There is true because the co founder of Black Lives Matter, Patrice Colors, was on TV and has openly said, and I quote, we should abolish law enforcement.
Where was she on TV and when, Megan?
How many times?
She's been out there a few times, and her co founder has said the same, and half the organizers that do go on television say the same.
Most of the time, when you see those, it's the same interview from 2015 or 2016 that's being rebroadcast.
No, they're not hiding this goal, Mark.
I mean, the city of Minneapolis voted to defund the police, and now they've already regretted it and backtracked on it.
Okay.
So, what I'm telling you is in terms of the NBA's involvement, right?
Whatever the founders of the hashtag, and again, you have to distinguish between the hashtag and the movement.
And to you, it may be a distinction without a difference, but I'm telling you to the people who are marching and the people that are involved in the NBA, it's not.
According to Gallup, In the latest poll, 81% of Black Americans want the same or more police in their neighborhoods than was taken a month ago.
You're conflating two different things, Megan.
You're talking about defunding the police and do they want more police support?
That's completely different than how the players responded to the Jacob Blake shooting.
No, no, I understand.
I understand the point you're making.
But what I'm trying to tell you is that people have been fed a media narrative about police hunting Black men that is a lie.
Okay, so maybe they have.
Okay, so maybe there's a media narrative.
Okay, depending on where you get your media.
But when I sit and I talk to African American males in particular, right, and I didn't have this understanding until I sat and talked to our players and their families and other people around them, right?
And, you know, they said, Mark, you know, you have a daughter about that just started driving at the time.
Did you have to have the talk with them?
And I'm like, what's the talk?
And they start to tell you about, well, one, here's what you have to do if you get pulled over by the police.
You never told your son to obey when pulled over by cops?
No, that's not it.
You're not letting me finish.
That's obvious.
Of course, they tell him to do everything that he's supposed to do.
But also, when you get pulled over, make sure you pull over in a lighted area if you at all can.
If you have somebody else in the car with the phone, make sure they're videotaping it if you at all can.
Human Rights Beyond China 00:17:30
If you can call somebody so people can listen in to what's going on, please do if you all can.
If you can automate something on your phone to do a quick dial to make all this happen, please do if you can.
That's part one.
Part two.
When you go into a retail establishment, don't be surprised if people start eyeballing you and following you simply because you're black.
You could be dressed the exact same way as a white individual walking down the same aisle, and there's still a greater chance that they're going to watch you.
And you just have to be able to deal with it and not get mad.
If you're running in a neighborhood, please do have somebody with you because when people see a black male running through a neighborhood, they get concerned, and there's a good chance you're going to have the police called on you.
So don't be surprised.
So you're better off running.
Or jogging or walking or walking your dog with another person because you are at risk.
Mark, have you ever had to have these conversations with your children?
The answer is no.
And that's the difference.
And so when they see Jacob Blake shot, they're not looking to make Jacob Blake a martyr.
Jacob Blake just happened to be the person that was just one more brick in the wall that just cemented where the African Americans feel that they are.
That's the problem.
That's why I support it.
That's why the interview is.
I understand it.
And the points you're making, I don't dispute any of those.
I think you can argue about whether, I mean, young women also get followed around stores a lot because we're the ones who are likely to steal.
I mean, they think young women who can't afford the dresses are going to take them and shove them in their purse.
So it doesn't just happen based on skin color.
But I'm not disputing that.
But what's been force-fed to the American public is the lie that cops are hunting black men.
More with Mark Cuban in a minute.
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And now back to Mark Cuban.
Your audience is fleeing.
They object to the politicization of their game, and you guys have suffered, have you not?
I mean, the ratings, what I saw is that finals are underway.
Let me just finish the question.
Okay, go ahead.
Lowest finals opener ever.
Game two, another new low.
Game three, down an unprecedented 58% since last year.
This is during a marquee matchup, right?
The Lakers and the Heat, I know enough to know that they were huge.
And last year, they had some team from Canada.
And that matchup was crushing what we're seeing this year.
And the sports analysts say this is a disaster.
It's an unprecedented viewership collapse for you guys.
So first, okay, my turn.
Okay.
So first, I really love this conversation.
I love going back and forth like this.
So I don't want any of this to be anything but total respect.
And I'm really enjoying this.
Okay.
Same.
I appreciate that.
Okay.
So, number one, who are the, when you talk about, you're putting these things out after just having said how bad the media was by using extreme examples and picking sources that may not be reflective of the reality.
So you're just, what you just said was wrong in terms of crime.
You're doing the exact same thing with this.
So I just want to make this point.
So, I'm asking you a question.
I'm telling you, this is the accusation that your ratings are down because you've got too political.
Right.
This is the accusation.
But you're not saying, Fred, who's making the accusation?
Because, well, I thought that last line of disaster I got from Clay Travis about kick.
Of course you did, right?
Now, what is Trey?
The numbers are what the numbers are, Mark.
The numbers are what the numbers are.
I mean, was it not the lowest finals opener ever?
Yes.
And it was a new low for game two and an unprecedented low for game two.
I'm going to tell you a quick story.
So, there's this old.
Probability thing where people use this example of during World War II, they brought in this statistical analysis guy to help them reduce the number of planes that were shot down.
And so, what he did was look at all the planes that returned from flying over the Pacific and look at all those who had been shot.
And all the people in military said, Look, all the planes that were shot return, all the bullet holes are right here.
So, we've got to make that area where the bullet holes are stronger.
And he said, No.
Because it's already strong enough.
That's why the planes return.
You got to look to see what shot them down.
You're using these examples, and it's analogous here because you're using these examples.
Let me finish.
You're not looking outside the NBA ratings to see what else is happening in media.
You're not using this, you're not correlating this.
Are there some other ratings you want to point me to?
Sure.
Okay.
Here's one this is a group of people that are incredibly woke, right?
Horse racing.
Horses are the most woke species on the planet.
We all know that.
Right?
Horse racing is down significantly.
The Triple Crown, the numbers are down 40, 50, 60% from last year because horses are the most woke beasts on the planet, right?
Because it must be politics that horse racing is down.
I know you want to compare yourself to horse racing right now, but the big indicators they look at are football and baseball, and they haven't taken anywhere near the hit that basketball has.
Well, football's always done really well, right?
What about hockey?
Again, Did you think hockey is analogous to basketball more than football?
Hockey had their finals.
What about regular TV, broadcast television?
You're trying to dodge.
You're trying.
No, I'm not trying to dodge.
I'm trying to convince you.
Why do you think your ratings are so low?
I think up until the finals, I think our finals disappointed.
I'll agree with that.
And I don't think it has anything to do with politics.
I just think we don't have the matchup or we don't have the storylines and did do a good job promoting it.
But be that as it may, right?
Prior to the finals, our numbers were good.
All things considered, our numbers were fine in the demographic that we shoot for.
Remember, the only point of ratings is to help advertisers buy advertising, correct?
Yes.
That's why ratings exist.
So within that realm, You know, we were pulling, we were winning our night every single night.
And that's despite having eight, you know, four games a day on some games and some days and even more on others, starting our games at one in the afternoon when nobody's watching.
Despite all that, we were winning not only in viewers, but also in terms of the 18 to 49 demographic.
That's our demographic.
But here's the NBA challenge in terms of media.
Up until the finals, and again, I'll admit that the finals have been somewhat disappointing.
Up until the finals, the only way to get an NBA game was on cable or satellite.
All of our games are on ESPN or TNT.
Our core audience, our fastest growing audience is the younger demographic.
They court cut.
They don't have cable.
They don't have satellite.
There was just a morning, was it Morning Consult?
I forget who came out that said among Gen Z and young millennials, the NBA is just behind the NFL with 47 to 49% of fans saying it's their most, it's their favorite sport.
And so we're right there.
But the problem is, Our largest growing viewership base and the one we want to be our viewership base, the youngest viewership base, Gen Z, can't watch us during our games or doesn't have regular TV to have our games.
But that's a problem.
They can watch the finals if they have broadcast television available to them.
And I'm not saying that's our reason for it.
I'm not making an excuse.
It's lower than I expect them to, I wanted them to be.
But at the same time, the rest of the playoffs, we did really well.
But our problem.
Look, I would just suggest to you, I would just suggest.
I'm telling you, the whole thing about politics is nonsense.
Okay.
I mean, time will tell.
Let me move on because I have to ask you about China.
The NBA is under all sorts of fire for taking money from China.
And what I'm told is that the NBA's revenue from China is around 500 million bucks at least.
So it's a lot of money that the Chinese put into basketball, into the players and endorsements and so on.
And my question for you is.
Whether the NBA needs to get more, not less vocal about this.
There was some guy who sent out one tweet.
He was the GM for the Houston Rockets back in October of 19 saying, simply fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong.
And all hell broke loose.
The Chinese Basketball Association suspended all cooperation with the team.
The Chinese top state TV suspended airing of the games and so on.
The NBA commissioner had to come out with his tail between his legs and said, we have great respect for China and its history.
It's all regrettable.
Then people freaked out in response to that and so on.
And now people are saying, with his tail between his legs, with his tail between his legs.
Megan, why can't you just ask me a straight up question?
I'm trying to summarize it for our viewers, Mark.
Yeah, but Megan, every single topic we've tried to discuss, and I've just tried, look, you get to come into this interview prepared with your quotes.
I don't get to talk about it.
This is your industry.
Yeah, but Megan, that's what I'm talking about.
I don't care what industry we're talking about.
Every single topic that you brought up, there's been one pejorative aspect to it in terms of how you present the question.
Look, I get it.
I'll give you the objective statement from Adam Silver, the NBA.
Commissioner.
I don't, I'm just telling you, people freaked out after he said this.
I take no position on it right here.
Oh, a lot of people.
I mean, I'll give you an example.
A lot of people say, hold on, we can quote President Trump.
People say, hold on.
Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner, came out and said, we recognize that Daryl Morey, he was the Rockets GM.
his Maury's views, quote, have deeply offended our friends and fans in China, which is regrettable.
We have great respect for the history and culture of China and hope that sports and the NBA can be used as a unifying force to bridge cultural divides.
In response to which many people, here's just one example, Florida Senator Rick Scott came out and said, the NBA is more interested in money than in human rights.
They are kowtowing to Beijing and it's shameful.
So you tell me whether the NBA needs to get more vocal in condemning what we're now seeing there.
which is an ethnic cleansing of a minority Muslim group known as the Uyghurs.
At one million or more are being held against their will right now, men, women, and children facing torture, forced labor, physical and sex abuse, coercive population control, forced abortion, forced sterilizations.
And the question remains, why won't you and the NBA explicitly condemn that?
So first, we pay attention.
I personally, okay, let's just talk about me.
I personally put a priority on domestic issues, right?
When it comes to human rights, I'm against all human rights violations around the world.
China is not the only country with human rights violations.
But including the ones in China, you're against their human rights violations?
I'm against all human rights violations.
Including China, Mark?
Yes, including China.
Any human rights violations anywhere are wrong.
Okay.
Now, what do we do about them?
That's the problem, right?
So the first thing you do, you say, okay, there's people from China trying to escape that.
There's people from Turkey.
There's people from Africa.
All trying to escape and receive asylum here in the United States.
Would you agree with them?
Would you agree with that?
Look, you, according to you.
I'm asking a question.
I'm asking a question.
Would you agree that the question, there are people who are trying to escape human rights violations around the world and gain asylum as refugees here in the United States of America?
Would you agree with that?
Yes, that's true.
Okay.
Would you agree that it's probably a good idea that we should allow more of them to come so they can escape these human rights violations?
You're not going to put this back on me.
This is about.
I'm not putting anything on you.
I'm just asking a question.
I'm just asking you a question.
No, we're talking about Cuban.
No, I'm explaining to my audience that what's happening now is you're dodging because you're uncomfortable because the NBA will not condemn China.
I just told you I'm against human rights violations everywhere, including China.
Let's get specific.
Do you condemn the genocide that's going on right now in China towards the U.S.?
I condemn all human rights violations.
Why can't you be specific?
Yes, because the way proclamations work in this country, the minute you say them anywhere, you're going to use this as a headline.
Cuban says this, this, and this.
What's wrong with that headline?
Cuban condemns ethnic cleansing.
I got to deal with the troll bots then.
I got to deal with the troll bots.
Now, what's more important to ask is what actions that I think are important to deal with these issues.
You don't, you want proclamations, but you're not, when I try to talk about actions, you ignore them and say, I'm evading the question.
I have been told silence is violence.
And my question for you is Why have you been so silent?
Action is this.
I'm telling you, action is change.
And I'm telling you about this.
So, what would I try to explain it to you, right?
I'm working, I've been involved trying to increase the number of slots available for asylum seekers here in the United States.
Right now, if someone were to escape, Any country that has human rights violations and get to this country, they can't get a job.
Come on.
You know why they can't get a job?
That's not a response to what's happening in China.
Why would the NBA take $500 million plus from a country that is engaging in ethnic cleansing?
Why would.
So basically, you're saying that nobody should do business with China ever.
Why don't you just answer my question?
No, Megan, I'm just trying to get to the root of it.
So why would the NBA do that?
You're the one who said that.
Because they are a customer.
They're.
They are a customer of ours.
And guess what, Megan?
I'm okay with doing business with China.
You know, I wish I could solve all the world's problems, Megan.
I'm sure you do too.
But we can't.
And so we have to pick all battles.
And while you'd like to get proclamations so you can create a clip that says, look what I got marked to say, you don't want to deal with the actual action item.
You might think silence is violence, but action gets changed, right?
And so when I start to talk about your action, I mean, that's.
You won't let me say it.
You stopped me every single time and said I was changing the subject.
Providing for asylum for those seeking it does absolutely nothing to help the women.
Okay, so first of all, you don't know what you're talking about.
You don't know what you're talking about because there are people.
You know how many people are on the waiting list for visas and asylum in China right now trying to get here but can't?
More than 200,000.
And you know how I know that?
Because it's not a published figure.
Because I went to the State Department and contributed the resources to figure it out and find out what's going on.
Because when people are able to get out, we don't get them a chance to come here.
And when they are able to get here, we don't give them a chance to work because they're not allowed to work.
And so when they get here, and so they go into the underground economy.
So, all these people crying for human rights, you know, helping the people, when we find a way to help them, we stop them.
We don't help them.
And so, don't give me all the nonsense about.
I got it.
I have to ask you before we go Are you going to take these problems on from the executive office of the White House?
No.
No, I'm not going to run for president.
Nope.
You're not?
Nope.
I've never heard you rule it out so explicitly.
No, I have.
Yeah, I have many times.
Right.
When the only reason I considered it because of Donald Trump, right?
Prior to that, I was apolitical, you know, and I'll go back to being apolitical when he's hopefully out of office.
Thanks for being here.
All the best.
I appreciate it, Megan.
Well, that was interesting.
Spirited, interesting, surprising.
Listen, a couple of things.
Look, he is actually right that helping asylum seekers from China, it is a good thing.
It is.
And they certainly can't stay where they are or go back home if they're here.
But it doesn't do anything for the million people who are already in China's forced labor camps right now.
That's the ethical challenge of getting rich off of China's money.
Also, in case, by the way, you were wondering whether those terrible ratings really were caused by the NBA going political, well, the NBA commissioner just announced that next year they will not be allowing messages on the floor or, it seems, on the jerseys.
He said he got the message from fans who turn on the TV and quote, just want to watch a basketball game.
Right?
Can't you relate to that?
So good.
Good for them.
Ratings speak.
They have the ultimate power on these guys.
That's the truth of it.
And our thanks again to Mark for the spicy exchange.
I can't think of another team owner who would have had the guts for that conversation, right?
He deserves credit for that, and we respect it and appreciate it.
Hope you enjoy the show.
The Ethical Cost of Wealth 00:00:25
Tune in later this week for Alan Dershowitz.
I'm really looking forward to that.
See ya.
Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.
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