Loser Does 100 Push-Ups LIVE! YES or NO: Michael Knowles Vs. Read Choi
YES or NO: Michael Knowles Vs. Read Choi
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Is insulting an Italian woman's cooking still less dangerous than being near an Asian woman driving?
Welcome to Yes or No, the vivulous battle to discover who knows whom better.
My guest today is Reed Choi.
How do we play?
I will ask Reed a yes or no question.
He will select his answer away from my prying eyes.
Then I will guess how he answered.
If I guess correctly, I get a point.
If I guess incorrectly, I lose a point.
No matter what, I will drink.
Then it's Reed's turn.
Neither of us has seen the questions beforehand.
Whoever has the most points at the end wins.
The stakes could be higher.
Let's get started.
Reed, thank you for being here.
We can smoke.
Yes, sir.
Because you're a real cigar man.
You're an actual cigar man.
Just like you.
That's right.
That's why I say yes to the show.
I was like, first thing I want to know, can I smoke a crazy thing?
You're getting the Mayflowers.
How did you sneak that lighter onto your airplane?
I don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, so what you're smoking right now is the Mayflower Dusk, a magnificent cigar for Thanksgiving and Christmas, if I do say so myself.
And we're smoking the same thing.
We're smoking the same cigar.
Okay.
and I want your honest opinion.
Mm, you got the retro hail.
You're breathing a little out the nose.
So it's a Nicaraguan wrapper.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Close.
Filler?
Ecuador Habano, Nicaraguan filler.
So you're right on the filler.
Because I was like, it's strong, but it's not so strong.
So I had to choose a guest wrapper, but it's a filler, huh?
Yes.
So you got the reds.
A Nicaraguan blend on the filler.
The wrapper is Ecuador Habano.
And the binder, which throws people off, Sumatra.
Sumatra.
Yes.
Very weird.
I know.
Since you are a man of great taste, what's the wager?
If I lose, what do I have to do?
50 push-ups.
50 push-ups?
In like a week?
Today.
In a day.
All at once?
All at once?
Or do I get like, is it like I do one, take a smoke break, go back, do my second push-up?
In two sets.
In two sets.
Okay, wow.
Wow.
I got to do 50.
Then you have, because you're like a big fit guy.
How about you have to do 100?
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
All right.
Now we're talking.
Okay.
I go first.
This is actually a very good cigar.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's not plugged at all.
Thank you.
Yeah, I try.
We try for great consistency in the actual rolling of them on the thighs of virgins, obviously.
And he's trying to pick up.
Does he really like that joke?
I was going to say, who's the virgin here?
That fellow over there.
No, no, no, it's not.
Okay.
First question.
Is insulting an Italian woman's cooking still less dangerous than being near an Asian woman driving?
Now I have to guess how you would answer.
Is an Italian woman's cooking less dangerous than being near an Asian woman driving?
Okay, you have to put your answer there on the.
I already did.
You already did.
Just instant.
Because I know you.
You're good at reading people.
You have to time it while you're reading it.
Okay.
While you're not looking at it.
Wow.
The funny thing is I don't know you at all.
I got it right.
Oh.
Why?
Because a spatula is less dangerous than that.
I drive with my aunt pretty consistently.
And I can't think of a more dangerous thing to do because she's got road rage.
And my aunt's going to watch this.
I'm not going to hear the end of it.
Yeah.
There should be like a public warning when my aunt drives.
Just like, hey, just, you know, keep it paying.
Clear the roads, like a presidential motorcade.
Okay, you're up.
Should there be a weight limit to be eligible for SNAP benefits?
You have to guess how I would answer.
Was that a boomerang?
That was unbelievable.
You got me.
That was pretty cool.
He's right.
Do you know how much I had to practice to do that?
Okay, what do you think I would say?
I already put it.
I didn't even guess it yet.
Okay.
Was he right or wrong?
He got it wrong.
No, there shouldn't be a weight limit.
Ah, dang it.
There shouldn't be a weight limit.
I don't want to sound like a huge lib here or anything like that, but you know what the libs would say?
They'd say, well, no, what the libs would say is, no, actually, poor people are fatter because they don't have access to like all the healthy foods and stuff and they just eat McDonald's all day, whatever.
And in fairness, I would have held that opinion five years ago, but now it's flipped.
And all the crunchy people are on the right, and all the like pro-GMO, like corporate food people are on the left.
And so to be consistent, I need to completely change my view.
And that's why I will let the fatties have snap.
I respect that.
Thank you.
Yes, sir.
Thank you.
Okay, you're up.
I just.
No, you're right.
Hold on.
I'll do the boomerang.
Okay, go.
Okay, let's see.
Is surviving an overbearing religious upbringing harder than surviving UC Berkeley as a conservative?
Oh, that's a great question because I had both.
Okay.
Hallelujah.
Sean.
Ah!
Harder than surviving UC Berkeley as a business.
It didn't come back around.
I got it wrong again.
Who are you talking to, bro?
Nobody.
Nobody.
You say no.
You say surviving a religious upbringing is harder than surviving UC up.
Well, how's that?
The libs now on campus, like Antifa, will come and throw explosives at you.
So I went to Berkeley during the Trump became president and the Milo riots.
Yeah, yeah.
At Berkeley.
Right.
So that was probably like the most dangerous time to be at Berkeley.
But I didn't get hurt.
But like growing up in a religious household, I got hurt a lot.
Yeah.
Just like spankings.
But it was good for you.
Or no, are you anti-what?
Corporal punishment?
Yes.
No.
But that was like, it was more abusive.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, okay.
You want to talk about that?
Yeah.
Okay.
Kind of.
Let's do it.
Because I wondered about it.
I'm like kind of a squish on it.
I don't, you know, I'm trad.
I'm right-wing.
I'm all these.
So what was your upbringing like?
It was, you know, kind of a little bit cafeteria Catholic, not too, not too tough, but with a religious foundation.
Okay.
But still.
My father was a vicar.
Really?
Yes, sir.
Just a little more.
And Korean.
You know what I mean?
Then a lot.
Did that repel you at all from religion?
Oh, absolutely.
It did.
Like, Christians today, I think what most Christians deal with is they're able to understand the love of God, but the reverence or the fear of God they struggle with.
I have it switched around.
Reverence and fear, I got it down to it too.
I understand that.
But love of God, that's the crux of it, Father.
It's also very interesting that way because it's a reminder that no matter what you do, no matter, like you can plan it perfectly and you're still, your kids are going to get a little screwed up.
You're going to lax, you're going to be missing, it's going to be off balance a little bit because it's a fallen world.
Yeah.
Wow.
And then, so you rebelled against religion?
No.
Yes, I did.
I did.
So up until I was 15, I always thought when I got hit, it was my fault.
It wasn't until I thought for myself at 15, I was like, maybe they got something that they haven't dealt with.
Maybe it's not every beating you get.
Maybe it's not because it's something you did.
Maybe it's something they haven't dealt with.
And then once I made that realization, that really ticked me off.
Yeah.
And then fell away from religion.
And then I fell back into it within the last four years.
How old are you?
29.
Yeah, I was kind of like that.
I was kind of like, I didn't get smacked.
I probably spanked like twice as a kid.
But so I didn't really have that.
But I did rebel at 13, came back about 23.
So would you, so you would raise your kids religious.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Would you give your kid a spanking or no?
I would, but not what I went through.
Yeah.
You know, there's, I think there's a fine line and a very fine line, but my parents didn't tread it that well.
Yeah.
I got some stories, man.
You got, you've got, yes, you, you've converted from the Korean style of corporal punishment, not to make light of it, to the American.
It's a little looser.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, take your licks.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
That's right.
All right.
Is the best way to know if you've entertained an angel is if they look like a black guy?
That was meant for you.
They might come back around.
They might boomerang.
Yes.
Oh, I meant to click yes.
He meant to listen to this.
Listen to this.
So oopsie.
Redo.
No.
Don't, he goes in my ear.
He says, did he actually, no, he doesn't get the point.
I get the point for that.
Yes.
Well, so you agree, though, angels often appear as black guys.
You want to hear the story?
Or do you already know the story?
No.
I have stories about this, though.
You have stories about this?
Yes.
Do you have black guy angels stories?
You have black guy angel stories.
Yes, multiple.
For me, one time I was on the subway, I'll keep them short.
One time I'm on the subway in New York, I'm going from, I don't know, call it 42nd Street to.
No, it wasn't that.
It was, gosh, it was like 33rd on the sixth train.
It was like 33rd to 28th.
Queens.
Okay.
So a lot of, a lot of Asians and Queens.
So I'm, anyway, I'm on 33rd to 28th, but I'm on the sixth line going from further up to further down.
Guy gets on at 33rd with a woman, both black, sits down next to me.
I'm kind of returning to religion.
I'm having kind of numinous experience.
It's all weird.
And he strikes up a conversation.
I'm just trying to read my book.
That's exactly what, yeah, go ahead.
He goes, hey, what do you do?
And I was like, at the time I was an actor in New York.
I said, I'm an actor, but what does that mean?
You know, it's like, it means I'm unemployed most of the time.
Was it Gabriel?
No, it was actually, it was odd.
He says to me, he goes, what's your name?
And I said, Michael.
He goes, oh, I'm Michael too.
We're angels.
I said, what?
Yeah.
And then he goes, well, yeah, don't worry about that.
Don't worry about that acting thing.
You're going to be great.
28th Street comes.
He gets up, doesn't look at the woman he came on with, gets off the train.
And if you're not a New Yorker, you might not appreciate.
Nobody gets on the train to go from 33rd to 28th or 28th to 33rd.
It's a very short, you would just walk.
So it didn't make any sense.
Another time I'm walking, also in Midtown East, actually, and this guy comes up to me.
I had this, I won't go into the whole story, but I had this thought on my mind.
This guy walks up to me, and I walk fast, walks up, starts talking to me about the thing I was thinking about, and then just walks away.
Both black guys.
What is your black eye angel story?
Wait, wait, wait.
What were you thinking about?
I was like, so I guess a short version of it is, I'm like in my early 20s.
I'm returning to the church and I'm thinking about all these sins and I'm thinking about lust in particular.
This guy comes up.
He goes, he doesn't even ask me a question.
He just goes, women, they'll get you in trouble.
Wow.
Walks away.
No, again, it's like a funny line that a guy in New York, I guess, could say.
It was general enough.
But I was thinking about that at the moment.
Yeah.
That's so cool, man.
So anyway, what's yours?
So four years ago, I was going, I was probably in the lowest point of my life, right?
Thinking about self-deletion and all that type of stuff.
Wow.
And lost a lot of people.
My career was on the line and I was taking care of this homeless lady.
I mean, every aspect of my life, it seemed like God was taken away.
And I was praying to God, like, how much more do you need to take away from me?
And then God replied, how much more do I have to take away from you before you realize I'm the only thing that you had to begin with?
And I was like, okay, I got that.
All right.
Sounds good.
And I was at a jacuzzi at an LA Fitness just trying to unwind as one does.
And there's a black guy in there.
That's it.
I'm just kidding.
He's a good looking dude.
You look angelic.
I was beyond antisocial at this point.
I did not want to talk to anybody.
But this guy comes up to me and the first thing he says to me is, you know, I have the voice of an angel.
I was like, okay.
He was like, you know what I think you should do?
I haven't told him anything about what I'm going through.
Yeah.
He just tells me, I think you should, every morning when you wake up, go to a mirror and tell yourself, I love you and I'm going to work on loving you better.
Not knowing that in that time, I knew that I did not love myself and I did not see myself as God deemed me worthy.
And so I started doing that, right?
And it actually worked.
And then years later, this experience, totally out of my head, I'm not thinking about it at all.
Just, I think we're both nerds.
And so randomly, as we do, we search Google for nerdy stuff.
And I'm like, angelic encounters, is there a common theme?
Gabriel comes up.
And the most common description of Gabriel, a beautiful black man.
Really?
Yes, sir.
Dude, that's crazy.
Because I've like brought this over the years.
It was like, I'll joke about it with my wife.
We'll be like, oh, yeah, we were at, you know, I was at this restaurant.
There were a ton of angels there.
We're talking about black guys.
And I'll be like, there are all these angels at the restaurant, whatever.
And that is so.
I don't know that I've ever met.
I have another friend who I've experienced these things with, but I've never met like a separate person.
This is the first time I've ever experienced that.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
I feel like that has to be God.
There's no way this is a coincidence.
There are no mere coincidences.
Okay, now it's my turn.
This is a video prompt.
Don't take that away from me.
Okay.
Okay.
Don't cry.
The party's back!
So the question is.
Thank you for laughing.
That would have been, that would have been painful if y'all didn't have laughed.
So the question is.
The question is, if people can be born introverted, does that also mean people can be born gay?
I have to guess how you would answer.
If people can be born introverted, does that mean people can be born gay?
So you think people can be born gay?
Yeah.
What do you mean by that?
So I don't remember ever choosing to be straight.
I think I've always just liked women.
And I have a lot of gay friends.
And the way that they talk about it, I sincerely believe that they have had the same experience I've had just with the same sex.
But I've also seen people that clearly chose to do it because they told me verbatim that I'm choosing this lifestyle.
So I think it can be both, but I do think at least some of them are actually born that way.
Yeah, you know, not to sound like a huge lib.
I mean, look, obviously there's a lot of social conditioning here because if you go to prison, you know, it seems like a lot of people discover they were born gay in prison and they probably would not have otherwise.
And nurture versus nature.
There's a lot of that.
Sexual trauma is associated with all of that.
Plenty of it.
Or like going to public school in 2025 is severely associated with that.
But it would seem totally plausible to me that people can be born with certain inclinations, whether that comes from hormones or something like that.
Because sometimes people say, well, God wouldn't have made you that way.
You're not born imperfect.
But I think, well, I don't know.
Everybody is born a little bit imperfect, right?
You know, people are missing.
Everybody's born stuff.
Yeah.
So obviously there's the like prison or British boarding school kind of gay, which is entirely a matter of nurture.
But I don't know, there are probably some people.
It reminds me of the verse, you know, the power of the Holy Spirit is made perfect in our weakness.
Our weaknesses are gifts from God so that we can rely on him more.
But I've found that the most productive conversations I've had with LGBTQ has never been with shoving the Bible down their throat, but rather this one story.
And I can't tell you how many times I've had this same conversation, and then these people become more interested in Christianity because they've been fed a, you're going to hell, X, Y, and Z, sin, sin, sin.
But the one I always tell them is the Pharisees, they bring a woman caught in the act of adultery to Jesus, trying to catch him.
And they bring her before him, and they say, Rabbi, we've caught this woman in the act of adultery, and by the law of Moses, we have the right to stone her to death.
What say you?
And then Jesus writes something on the ground and looks at them and says, he who is without sin may cast the first stone.
And a lot of people think that the moral of that story is that we're all sinners, so who are we to judge one another?
Which is true.
But the one thing that I think a lot of people miss is that the one person who had every right to kill that lady right there, right then and there, chose not to.
And instead chose to love on that person.
And when I tell that story, every single person that's LGBTQ said, I never thought of that way.
And you can see warmth in their approach to Christianity.
I was never there.
It's led to beautiful conversations asking me to pray for them.
I have a crazy story about that.
I was like, God, I feel like you want me to pray for this person.
I don't know.
So you let me know.
And as soon as I said that prayer, this person that was in the LGBTQ said, I'm going to ask you something, but I'm afraid to ask you.
I was like, what is that?
He said, can you pray for me?
Yeah.
What do you think he wrote?
People sometimes elide over the fact that he, you know, they ask him, Rabbi, what should we do?
And he writes in the ground, and then he says, let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
What does he write, do you think?
I've heard that he just wrote the Ten Commandments.
But I've never thought about it that deeply.
You know, that's actually a good answer.
I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but one of the popular kind of pious traditions around that is that he wrote, he wrote all of their sins.
That must have took a while.
Well, the thing is, that would have been the same thing in many ways, right?
You know, if you, like when I go into confession and I do an examination of conscience, I'm going through the Ten Commandments.
Okay, did I violate this commandment?
Did I violate this commandment?
Did I violate it?
And all the different ways, there are a thousand different ways you could and likely do violate them.
But just, you know, if you, because it seems implausible if he just says, well, let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
That's all that he said, you wonder if the guys would say, huh?
What?
Yeah, sure, I'm without sin.
He throws the first stone.
Yeah, whatever.
But once you start seeing wrath, lust, pride, what is it, seven deadly sins or the Ten Commandments or what?
They don't always see, oh, yikes.
And there are people.
I remember there was one time in college, there was one of these evangelical, like, you know, has the board on his chest, you know, screaming about fire and brimstone kind of guys.
But I do think he had a spiritual gift because we're all walking through.
It was after class had let out.
Oh, no, God bless him.
There's a place for that, too.
Yeah, totally.
Because it was amazing.
He was just standing there.
The cops were protecting him from the students.
And he's just pointing at each of them and calling out their sins.
And at Yale, 97% of the students are gay.
But he wasn't calling everyone.
There you say, look, it's just the odds are in your favor if you just say.
I went to Berkeley.
So very similar.
96.
But it wasn't.
He was pointing and he was right.
He was actually precise about hitting.
And I thought.
He's like, gay, fat, gay, gay.
Are you serious?
No, no, no.
It kind of.
It was like sodomy, fornication, gluttony, whatever, you know, whatever it was.
And he was right.
For the people that he was pointing to that I saw that I was around, he was right.
And I remember thinking, this guy's a little, he's clearly a little unhinged or, you know, maybe he's superhing.
But he's, you know, he's more of a John the Baptist figure.
Yes.
And I said, but he might have a spiritual gift.
And I went back, I talked to my roommate, and I said, he was raised kind of mega church evangelical, cradle Catholic, actually later returned to the Catholic Church.
But he, you know, the evangelicals are a little more open to talking about these things in a lot of cases.
Do you think me as a Protestant, you'll see me in heaven?
Well, I hope so.
No, but like, honestly.
Well, I think you're valid, if you're validly baptized, then you're Christian in the broad sense of it.
But do I have to be baptized by someone from the Catholic Church or can't just be baptized?
No, as long as you're baptized in the Trinitarian formula with the proper matter, you know, like water.
It can't be in root beer, say, but if it's in water, that's a valid baptism.
There is a fear, though.
This is my fear for my Protestant friends, is that I do think you have to be in a state of grace.
And I think our Lord gives us the sacraments to remind us that the flesh matters and historicity matters.
And he's incarnate in a particular time in history.
He gives the apostles the power to forgive and to retain sins.
He institutes the Eucharist and my reading and the traditional reading of the Last Supper.
And he institutes the sacraments.
And he says in John 6, whoever eats the flesh of the Son of Man and drinks his blood has life in him.
If you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
And my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
And everyone goes away except for Peter.
And he says, to whom shall we go?
And the disciples.
And the apostles rather.
And so I do have this fear.
I'm not saying that Protestants are going to hell or something like that.
I'm not going that far.
But I am saying I think our Lord gives us sacraments for a reason.
And I do think in our incarnate bodies, what is a sacrament but the meeting of the physical and the metaphysical?
And I think it's very helpful for us.
And I think he does it for a reason.
And this is my thought of the spiritual danger of religion that is absent authority and sacraments, is that it puts us in spiritual danger.
That's my real concern.
No doubt.
Yeah, there's a delicate balance that I think you kind of pointed to where like, in God blessing everything with imperfection that I found.
So people call me a closeted Catholic, which means I'm Anglican.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you and I would agree that Protestants, if there's one thing we lack, it's reverence.
Yeah, I mean, Japan, it's a broad brush, but yes, there is less a sense of reverence, awe, and wonder in the liturgy where there is liturgy.
But there's also that delicate balance of making sure that the sacraments or the liturgy doesn't become your God, like the Pharisees, where it's just too workspace, and there has to be a healthy balance.
Certainly with the liturgy, I agree.
And Catholics, I'm a trad, you know, kind of trady, so I go to Latin Mass and I love the smells and bells.
And I think it's all actually very important.
But yes, you don't want to make an idol of the liturgy.
With the sacrament.
Well, it's very clear that you do it because it makes you feel closer to God.
Yes, it lifts your eyes up to heaven, I think.
And it's sacramentals.
Sometimes people could do it.
You don't want to make an idol out of that.
With the sacrament, though, especially the blessed sacrament, the Eucharist, I do treat the blessed sacrament as God because I really believe that's God.
Yes, that's one of those where I think.
Are we having like a transubstantiation?
Yeah, I believe obviously transubstantiation.
And I think it's one of these where, you know, many of my Protestant friends, they say, well, why do I need all that?
And I think, well, I wouldn't approach it that way.
I would just think, you know, if it is plausible that the bread really is like his flesh in a meaningful way, and there are all sorts of good philosophical arguments for this and theological arguments, but if that's true, then I would think of it less as like, I have to go do this.
You get to.
And yeah, maybe this is an amazing grace that Christ has given us.
And like, again, like, maybe it's worth trying it out, you know, intellectually and maybe considering.
Yeah.
All right.
You're up.
Yes, sir.
Oh, it's a video prompt.
Do we watch the video first?
Yes.
Okay.
This is just regular shorts.
This is how I walk through the airport.
This is how I walk through the airport.
Oh, with these shortcomings.
I had my robe on.
We were getting ready to board the plane.
And the lady at the front desk stopped me and said, you're not getting on a plane like this.
So I looked at her and I said, like what?
She said, with those shorts.
I said, everybody here has on shorts.
What's the problem with my short?
Should anything less than business casual be kicked off an airplane in a tire like this woman's should carry jail time?
Well, are you answering this seriously or to be funny?
Let's grant to the author of the question mild hyperbole, but only mild hyperbole.
Got it wrong.
Got it wrong.
Yes, I'm offended, actually, when, well, by that, obviously, and that woman probably should go to jail for many other reasons.
Really?
Yeah, I'm sure.
I want to, I'm not saying stoning.
I'm not saying stoning.
I know we were talking about that earlier, but maybe some jail time.
Fashion jail.
Fashion jail in a literal prison.
But I travel a lot by plane.
I'm sure you travel a lot by plane.
And it used to be the case that you get on an airplane and people really dressed.
This was before I was born.
And even when I was a kid, people still dressed.
And, you know, maybe not suit and tie, but they still dressed semi-decently.
And now, how do you know?
Where does that come from?
Where does dressing properly come from?
For you.
Why are you always well dressed?
Because to dress well, you don't need to be a fop.
You don't need to be like a dandy or something like that.
But just to wear like a shirt that's not totally rumpled and like a jacket if you go to dinner or something.
A fop?
A fop of the body.
A federation slipper.
A dandy.
Yeah, a whop is a racial slit.
And when a whop wears a silly like top hat, then he would be a foppy whop.
But I think to dress decently conveys respect for yourself and for other people.
And so I don't, one, like women should not be allowed outside in the Lululemon tiny, you know, like really tight leggings and stuff because that is bad for me.
That's really bad.
Like I'm not saying you have to wear a burqa, but like, come on, ladies, it's tough for guys enough, maintaining custody of the eyes.
Don't wear like underwear in public.
That's the first part.
But then the second part, even beyond, you know, arousing someone, what kind of society do we want to live in?
Do we all want to be in our pajamas all day?
Do we all want to wear like gray drab clothing and some dystopian novel?
Or do we want to just dress in a way that's respectful?
You don't have to wear coat and tails all the time.
But I think standards are good and actually make everyone happier.
I would agree.
It's just when I think about that, I think of when Jesus said, it's better to enter heaven blind than to burn it.
So to carve out your eye.
Yeah.
My interpretation of that was that it's a lot harder to ask the world to change than for you to change yourself.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and so instead of asking that woman to dress properly, maybe just don't look.
But it's not hard to ask that woman to dress properly.
In the sense that, well, they literally kicked her off the flight.
I don't think they should have done that.
Why not?
It was easy to do it.
To your point, it was easy enough to do it.
And since we have had- Unless she smelled.
That's unfortunate.
She might have that as well.
I mean, these vices go hand in hand.
But she was in a bathrobe, so she probably bathed.
Maybe.
When did she launder that bathrobe?
I don't know.
How does she?
All I have is the evidence that you have prevented.
She is not a meticulous person generally.
I'm not sure she's not a surprise.
Have you seen the shades?
Have I seen the what?
The shades.
The shades.
If anything, that was a meticulous decision.
The shades?
Oh, you didn't see her shades?
Was she wearing?
No, I actually didn't.
What were you looking at?
I just looked right out her eyes.
Well, this is, it's sort of like, it's kind of like being like, hey, don't.
Michael.
Don't think about zebras.
This is free country.
I'll think about what I'm going to do.
What do you think about your standards?
Right.
And I just think like, to bring it back to religion, I'm with Thomas Aquinas in as much as Thomas on everything.
Yeah, really?
But Aquinas Aquinas has asked, in an ideal regime, should we eliminate prostitution?
Should we outlaw prostitution?
And he very curiously, he confounds the really hard, rigid people and Puritans because he says, well, not necessarily.
Because you should certainly circumscribe it.
You should endeavor to get rid of prostitution.
But not everyone in a polity is of equal virtue.
And so if you push people.
He was a neoliberal.
That might be the first time Thomas Aquinas has been called a neolib.
But if you try to push people too hard, you might snap them.
You might make the problem worse.
They might be convulsed with lust.
And so there might be a world in which a small red light district is actually better at a certain period of time than trying to get rid of prostitution overnight.
And that's kind of how I feel about these standards.
Like we have had many times, for the majority of air travel, people have not worn pajamas on airplanes.
And now people do wear pajamas.
And that lady very literally wore pajamas because it was the clothing you wear in your bedroom and your bathroom.
I think also it depends on which airlines you chose.
Like that was spirit.
Then I kicked her off.
That was.
Yeah.
Right.
That doesn't fly on Delta.
It's our brand.
That doesn't.
Yeah.
Come on.
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By the way, I am very impressed.
Not only did you house that Mayflower cigar, but then you're digging into the personal Humi for the follow-up, which look at that beautiful, you know, you get to smoke the one I gave you.
I have not smoked it yet.
I don't actually know, Joya.
No, you didn't.
No, you don't.
No, I would be, I guess I would be rude to say no.
Although you're smoking more shester than I am.
You're a Cardinal Shen.
Yeah, we're doing Cardinal Shen.
Yeah, you're right.
All right.
You see, there's boys and then there's men.
You're right.
I'm taking too long on my Mayflower.
It's a great stick.
Thank you.
Since it would be so rude, you've slurped this one up very quickly.
This is like, you know, who smokes like that?
It's Sebastian Gorka, who's the counterterrorism guy at the White House.
Seb Gorka, he just like takes a cigar, just slurps the whole thing up.
Yeah, one puff, and then moves on to the second stick.
I can't wait to move on to my second stick.
First, though, I'm actually winning.
It's Michael number one with one point.
Read negative three, which means I might evade.
Negative three.
But in the subsequent rounds, there are chances to really get all the points.
And one more thing.
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Okay, it's time for the rapid fire round.
Three questions, 30 seconds, no time to outthink each other.
Let's take it away.
Wait, I go first.
Okay.
Is it morally acceptable for Christian actors to perform romantic relationships on camera?
You would say yes.
I would.
We can talk about that later.
It's rapid fire.
In your opinion, is it more likely that TikTok is simply built to maximize profit by feeding users the most compelling content possible rather than being an intentionally designed weapon used by the Chinese government, the CIA, or the deep state for spying and mind control propaganda?
So TikTok's just about making money.
It's not about pushing propaganda from bad actors.
Ah, you're so shoot.
All right.
You said, yeah, I think it's, I think it's propaganda.
Many critics accused him...
It doesn't matter what you think, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
The profits are good.
There's no doubt about that.
Many critics accuse Michael of being a hypocrite, and it's got nothing to do with his politics.
It's because he's out here preaching discipline while being a buttersoft guinea.
Who writes this?
This is so offensive.
A buttersoft guinea.
I meant it to be complimentary.
Yeah, hold on to it.
It's because he's a buttersoft guinea who hasn't cared about lifting any large weight since he stopped pushing Chris Christie in the primary.
You're going to say yes.
I got a wrong.
Ah, man, shoot.
I might be, I might be losing now.
Okay.
They also call me a hypocrite.
You know why they call me a hypocrite?
The chief criticism I get on this is because I promote cigars and I have smoked cigars for 20 years and I have a cigar company and I don't like the old sin spinach.
You know what I'm talking about?
Left-handed cigarettes.
You know what I mean?
Talking about the Peruvian parsley, the old California cumin.
You know what I mean?
The devil's lettuce.
I'm talking about pot.
They call me a hypocrite.
I don't think it's hypocritical.
They're different things.
Have you ever played the devil?
I have played the devil, actually.
I did.
I feel like you'd make a video.
Is that a compliment?
You got charm.
All right.
I'll take that.
Yeah.
I have played the devil.
That was actually one of my favorite roles I ever played.
Yeah, I want to play the devil so bad.
Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty fun.
You don't want to be too strong.
Have you ever met the devil?
I've never met the devil.
I did interview a guy once who's met the devil.
I think I've...
Because when we say devil, we mean the big guy, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Have you met one of the smaller guys?
I definitely have gotten glimpses of the demonic, and I may have heard a demon one time, but I'm not sure.
A couple times have had sleep paralysis, which could be a purely physical phenomenon.
There was one occasion in which I think it might have been more than just physical.
And I heard, I think I heard a demon, but I'm not totally confident.
Do you want to talk about it?
Well, no, it's just one, I mean, that's the story.
I woke up one time.
I was in my bed in LA, L.A., which is Gomorrah by the sea, as you well know.
Babylon.
Babylon.
Sleep paralysis, for those who haven't experienced it, is when you're awake, but you can't move.
But you're conscious and you're away.
And you're not exactly dreaming, but sometimes you can hear things or see things or an eye.
And I've heard harrowing stories of this.
You rarely have good sleep paralysis.
I noticed no one ever has sleep paralysis and it's like the ice cream man giving you a popsicle.
And I heard a handsome.
The ice cream man giving him a popsicle.
Yeah.
Which is out of his nature.
He's a handsome dude.
Holy shit.
Yeah.
That's a handsome dude.
Is he?
You are too.
Yeah.
Are you auditioning to play the devil?
Is that what this is?
Is this a, have you met the devil?
The devil?
No.
But I've seen some demons.
How so?
I've seen a demon once.
How?
I was with my friend group, and there was one that was clearly going through a really tough time.
And my friends decided to leave in the living room, and so it was just me and this person, and I was just like washing some dishes, right?
And then they go, read?
I go, yeah.
And I look up, right?
And for about one to two seconds, it wasn't that person's face.
It was just like a goat, like an evil goat, just for about two seconds.
And then it went right back to her face.
And I was like, whoa.
So do you, because you know, the kind of traditional view of these things is that there are different ways that demons try to mess with us.
And the clearest way is they just try to tempt us.
And then sometimes they, you know, vex us and they obsess us and other, and then the- I think the most common way that the devil approaches the individual is through sympathy.
They understand what you're going through.
Like, Michael, that's hard.
I'm sorry, brother.
Yeah.
Let me pour you a drink, man.
Yeah.
Tell me about it.
Yeah, man.
Exactly.
They make you laugh a little bit.
You want to have some fun?
You know, just let off some steam, brother.
Like that.
I interviewed an exorcist, Father Rehill, and he mentioned that he's met the devil twice.
And one time, the devil did exactly that.
He was going out too much.
He was working in Wall Street, and he said it was upsetting his life.
And so he was reverting to the church, and he was talking to a priest in a confession.
Priest basically gave him a way to stop drinking, even if he continued to have to do these business deals.
And as he walks out of the church, there's a guy in New York.
And it's right down actually where I used to live in New York in the financial district, and a church where I've confessed.
And he walks out, and this handsome-looking dude is there.
And he walks right over.
It was him.
It was him, actually.
It was him.
Yeah.
And he walks over to him.
And in New York, people don't really stop and look at each other all that much.
This guy's looking right at him, walks over, grabs him by the arm and says, hey, buddy, let's go get a drink.
And Father Rehill, not yet a priest, it's like terrified, bolts, goes a block or two up to his apartment right in the area, looks down, the guy's staring up, looking right at him, laughing.
You think, well, that's pretty persuasive.
You know, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
So do you think your friend was possessed?
Well, funny enough, in the Catholic liturgy, there's levels of possession.
Yes, right.
That's what I was kind of- Minor, complete.
I think she was just being tormented.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Spooky.
You're up.
Solving depression isn't that complicated.
Correct.
Ah, yeah.
I'm not saying it's easy, but it's simple.
Yeah.
And you got to make sure a lot of other things are just online first.
Is legalism online slowing the spread of Christianity more than antinomianism?
Oh.
Oh, you think legalism is that prominent online?
I don't.
I think what my very evangelical producer means is any kind of, I think he means any focus on like the rules or sin at all.
Basically as the, you know, because legalism and antinomianism would be two opposite errors.
I think he means maybe a focus on rules and sin versus a kind of brushing aside and saying, oh, it's all good.
It's all fine.
There's no sin.
Don't worry about it.
No.
No.
Yeah.
That's no.
And I properly interpreted my confused producer.
Okay.
Oh, boy.
Japan deserved to be nuke.
Nuked.
It's still falling.
Okay, if you're trying to be humorous, you'd say yes.
But I think if you're deserved, who are we to say?
They did deserve it, though I'm not saying I support it.
The reason I would say they deserve to be nuked is because we all deserve to be nuked.
Because we all deserve death.
That's what we get.
It's only through God's grace.
That was pretty good.
How you like that?
That was, yeah.
That was.
No, we have to look at the count.
That's an inside joke.
That was, yeah, because I don't, I have kind of complex feelings on the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I kind of think it's not morally justified.
Correct.
However, in the grand scheme of things, we all deserve death.
Bit of a cop-out, but it's not.
That's a little bit of a cop-out, but I got my point.
Okay, it's time for the final round.
The prompt will be read.
We will both lock in our answers, then move our glasses to yes or no.
Let's see if we can, why are there so many good-looking guys?
If we can read each other's minds.
This round is worth double points.
It could change everything.
Wow, so the score, it's tightened up.
Michael, zero, and read, negative two.
This is the kind of game where you basically just want to break even.
Okay.
So then, is the book of James a solid defense of Protestantism?
In what way?
My thoughts, exactly.
Is the book of James a solid defense of Protestantism?
Is James your favorite book, too?
I don't know if I'd say my favorite, but it's up there.
It's definitely up there.
I love the book of James.
I love it.
You too, really?
I memorize it.
Really?
Yeah.
No way.
You're shocked.
Okay, hold on.
I'm not saying anything else until we lock in our answers.
Okay.
No.
Yeah, obviously.
You love the book.
Why do you love the book of James?
I think it is the handbook for Christians.
Like, straight to the point.
If you want to be a Christian, a lot of your questions will be answered in this book.
Great.
That's a great view of it because I do like a Christian hand too.
And it's like Hemingway wrote it.
There's no blunt.
It's very direct.
Yes.
It's funny because sometimes I figured the question would be, is the book of James a defense of Catholicism?
Because it mentions the importance of works as following from faith and all that.
So the way it was written, it was an easier answer.
But yes, you're right.
There is a kind of, maybe it's a kind of Jewish bluntness that you're getting out of James.
It's just like, hey guys, here's how it is.
I'm not ink.
You read the Gospel of John and this is the most high-minded theology you can imagine.
Is John your favorite gospel?
Yes.
So you like a high christology.
Yes.
Yeah.
I love John Coop.
Yes, of course.
We're so close we can actually almost finish each other's sandwiches.
All right, we'll try it again next episode.
But it's like you read these books, Luke, you know, you get these beautiful images and these very vivid pictures, you know, and all.
But yeah, with James, it's just like, hey, hey, this is it.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah.
I once, a great priest friend of mine pointed out, he said, Michael, I think he might have written this in a book or something.
He said, if anyone ever tells you that they understand the book of the apocalypse, you know, the book of Revelation, you can be certain that is a crazy person.
It's like quantum physics.
It's like quantum physics.
It's a little less rude.
Nobody knows what they're talking about.
All right.
What's your favorite passage from James?
Well, probably faith without works is dead.
Followed by man is justified by works and not by faith alone, which is a very now, you know, justification, the meaning of justification there is very important and there are like disagreements.
I think there's misunderstanding about what is meant by justification, you know, between various sort of sects and religious views.
Talk about it.
Well, me.
Where would you land?
Because the general Protestant interpretation of that, taking sola fide as, you know, a doctrinal matter of faith.
You know, the Catholic rejoinder to that is Luther added the word faith alone or added the word alone to the Bible.
And the only time that the phrase faith alone appears is actually in James.
And there it says a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
But this is not to say that man saves himself.
This is not to say that we have a Pelagian religion.
The proof of our faith, the proof of our pudding is in our works.
Yes.
And God, you know, God's grace is entirely what comes down the mountain and reaches out to you.
But there's a recognition that you do have the free will to cooperate with that grace or not to.
You have that freedom as our first ancestors did.
Okay, your last one.
The last one.
You read it.
Okay, this could change everything.
Hold on, before we get to that, I wanted to, since you love, what is your favorite passage from James?
My brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials and tribulations of any kind, consider it pure joy, for you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
And let endurance have its full effect on you, making you mature and complete.
But if any of you like anything, this is why I love James, because I can just say it.
And you wouldn't know.
But if you like anything, ask the Lord, for he gives to all ungrudgingly and graciously, and it will be given to you.
But ask in faith, never in doubt.
For the one who doubts, it's like a wave of the sea being driven and tossed by the ocean.
For the doubter is unstable-minded and must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
It's so great.
It's so beautiful.
Yeah.
Yes, you're right.
And there is this feeling that you're asking advice from a wise friend or mentor.
He's like, yeah, here's how it is.
But don't misunderstand me.
And but, you know, actually, hold on, let me clarify.
I already know what you're thinking.
And let me, yes, it's so, that's beautiful.
Yeah.
It also touches on the fact that, hey, when you choose a Christian life, and it's kind of like when I evangelize people, when they say they want to be Christian, I'm like, are you sure?
Because you're asking for a lot right now.
Because you're part of the world right now and it's cushy.
But when you join this side, you're on the enemy's radar and things are going to get tough and you should expect that.
And then you get like Psalm 22 when you're allowed to lament to the Lord.
You know, that's the beautiful part.
And James, same thing.
Yeah.
Good image, too.
It's kind of like putting your head up above the trenches.
Like, are you sure?
Because you got your head below the trenches right now and the bullets are just whizzing by.
And you're going to die eventually, by the way, when the enemy troops come and just come in and like pike you with a bayonet.
And it's a little manipulative, too, because people want what they can't have.
Yes.
Sorry, you want this?
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
It's really hard.
It will make you feel heroic.
Yeah.
But do you want it?
It's the calm in the storm, but there is that storm.
Okay, you're right.
Here we go.
This could change everything.
Ben said to expect the K-pop demon hunters question.
This is the last one.
It better be it.
Is K-pop demon hunters.
Okay.
Are you a prophet?
You know, I have an interesting theory on this.
It coincides with intelligence.
And you're an intelligent man.
I have this theory.
I feel like that God's purpose for gifting not everyone. to be intelligent, but just some people to be more intelligent than others is that we're given intelligence so that we can go out into the esoteric, understand the esoteric, but then be able to filter that down for the common.
It's a full relationship.
Too many intelligent people can understand the esoteric, but they're not able to filter it down.
The example that I would give would be like very like virtuoso music like Jacob Collier.
Clearly a music savanna, clearly a music genius, but his music isn't for everybody.
But like someone like Prince, you know, clearly understood everything there was to be about music, but his music anybody can listen to.
And you come across it and you think, I'm feeling something and I don't know why.
That's that filtering down.
Yeah, or even thinking within like traditional orchestration, like a John Williams, you know, John Williams, who's the most important classical-ish musician of our age.
You know, everybody of our day.
Yeah, everybody can come a John Williams tune, you know, and it's very popular.
And it is quite simple.
And simple, yes.
He loves that two-factor beat.
Well, how do you because one do you know that you're intelligent?
Are you smarter than the average person?
I think I have reasonable intelligence, but I think I'm intelligent enough to know that there are many, many, many more intelligent people than I.
But yeah, I agree.
I won't have a false modesty.
I think I'm probably reasonably intelligent.
Okay.
But not, but I remember.
Where would you put yourself?
If it was first percentile to 99th percentile.
Use your drink.
Yeah, that's okay.
If this is his first percentile, this is 99th percentile.
And here's right here on the yard line.
On the count of three.
Yeah.
Of how intelligent.
And you're going to say how intelligent you think you are.
I think you are.
You think I am?
I would say I'm, okay.
Why?
One, two, three.
What about here?
Say about 75.
That's it.
You're putting me at like 95 or something.
Really?
Stop it.
Go on.
Take an IQ tone.
How handsome am I?
No.
That's what you're on.
Well, that's very kind.
I appreciate it.
That's very kind.
But don't think you're going to butter me up so that I lose the last question.
Because that might happen.
That actually might have happened already.
Okay.
K-pop demon hunters, though obviously a crowning achievement of cinema, a net negative because it will only feed into the growing AI anime porn that's destroyed the minds of young men.
A crowning achievement of cinema, huh?
I actually talked to a pastor yesterday that said that it's a very Christian story.
You agree?
I've only seen half of it.
I've only seen half of it, and Mary is insisting that, okay.
You saw the whole thing?
It is good.
You know who you are.
Hold on.
Let's do the answer before so I don't give away my answer.
Got a Mr. Rogers vibe going on.
Yeah, well, yeah.
I love Mr. Rogers.
Something here.
I do.
I honestly do.
Really?
It's a great idea.
Yeah, that.
When I have them.
Is there a new Mr. Rogers?
Kirk Cameron's close kid.
Iggy and Mr. Kirk, maybe.
I don't know.
Mr. Rogers is a singular figure.
A net net net negative because he says lock in my answer.
I don't know my I don't know my own answer.
I'm going to pretend it's like a chess tournament.
I'm waiting for you to move.
Yeah.
Walk around.
Net negative because it will only feed.
Three, two, one.
Correct.
I don't think it's a crowning achievement of cinema, though.
I've only seen half of it.
I don't think it's a net negative.
I don't think it's a net negative.
I feel like there was like a ring.
But here's, okay, I'll tell you what happened.
This is if it was Italian pop demon hunter.
So the issue is I went in, I thought it was just some like fluffy cartoon movie.
And then a buddy of mine, who I, to my own detriment, respect, he came in and he said, you have to watch it.
It's actually very good.
It has a very interesting thesis and it's very and so then I went from no expectations to very high expectations.
And in the half that I watched, it actually I was oversold on it.
Yeah, yeah.
And I heard that it gets much better in the second half.
Okay.
I went into a super low expectations.
Yes, that's the better way to buy it.
Yeah.
Are you a singer?
I in the shower.
And with the ukulele, but not a very good singer.
Do you play any instruments?
I do.
I do.
I play like every instrument at the level of a pretty good 13-year-old.
So I'm not under the business.
You're a journeyman.
Yes, I'm a journey.
With journeymen.
Yeah.
I thought it was, I mean, I did come into it with low expectations.
But then, like, the songwriting itself, I mean, it's like you can just listen to the soundtrack.
It's impressive pop music writing.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Why is it Christian?
There's the devil.
There's the, you know.
Yeah.
So this isn't my thesis.
So I wouldn't say I 100% agree with it.
But what the pastor said was basically modern cinema, there's a placating to the fact that there isn't an absolute evil that they try to say that like, well, kind of catering towards the anti-hero and all that type of stuff.
Whereas in this story, there's an obvious bad, and then there's an obvious good, and there's someone that struggles with being in between the lines, but then ultimately choosing good.
And then at the end, there's a oh, wow, that scared the crap out of me.
Oh, Elizabeth Warren in the corner.
Yeah, Foca.
It's our Foca Honest Verindian.
Yeah.
That's the second time that happened.
She scares a lot of people.
There's a Christ-like sacrifice of like giving my life for you that happens at the end.
And so once he told me that, I was like, I can see your point.
Spoiler alert.
Oh, crap.
My bad.
Well, I, it's okay.
I wasn't going to finish it.
But now actually, maybe I want.
You sort of persuaded me that maybe I should.
Okay, so this means, oh, thank goodness.
Thank goodness.
This means the final score is four to two, which means that I do not need to do more push-ups than I have done cumulatively in the last five years today.
And that means that my Giga Chad friend over here will have to do 100 push-ups, which he's probably already done today.
Go check out Read on all social media platforms.
That is at ReadChoy, R-E-A-D, like you do to a book, Read Choi, so that you can enjoy content like this.
Jesus Christ, oh my God.
Wow.
Okay.
I see how it is.
Oh, come on.
Jesus is not like that.
It's a minute long.
Oh, no.
I'm sorry.
You can't take a minute out of your day to spend time with me.
I get it.
I mean, I died for you.
I went to hell for three days.
What do I know except for everything?
Come on, don't be like that.
It's a minute long.
The other videos are like 15 seconds, so it's like four videos long.
Hey, choose me or the world, right?
Go ahead.
Let the devil win.
Me not watching one video about you is not the same thing as letting the devil win.
Yes, it is.
Oh, come on.
You're on his side now?
Oh, wow.
Shocker.
I'm right again.
See how much easier it would be if you just listened to me.
The video's not even that good.
Half of it is like heresy, I think.
It is written that I shall give you a spirit of discernment.
If you watched the video, you would have known that already.
Okay, okay, I'll watch this stupid video.
Is everybody happy now?
I honestly don't know why you bothered with him.
He gets tempted and manipulated so easily.
Bro, why are you even here?
Oh, I quite like it, Kimchi.
So I'm going to go get that.
Yes, yes, here we go.
All right, see you later.
Lucy has always been so strange.
74, 75.
He got 75 during the video.
He got 75 during the video.
No.
78, 79, 80, 81.
81, 81 during the video.
Or, well, I guess A3, A4, 5, 86.
86.
86 quickups.
86 push-ups.
Is he gonna, a seven, a nine, 90.
Two, three, four, five, six.
You're getting ASMR in here.
Seven, eight, nine.
That was legitimately, it was very impressive.
Not only was it 100 push-ups just back to back right away during the show, it was also after a bunch of whiskey.
