The Michael Knowles Show - Would You Be Catholic or Protestant?

Aug. 30, 2025 - The Michael Knowles Show

01:01:02

Would You Be Catholic or Protestant? | YES or NO: Ben Shapiro

Would Ben Shapiro be Catholic or Protestant? Michael Knowles puts him on the spot in this fiery episode of YES or NO. From faith and theology to politics and pop culture, nothing is off-limits. The two dive into religion’s role in American life, the future of conservatism, and even react to viral videos along the way. Can Ben convince Michael? Can Michael hold his ground? And which surprising answers will shock you the most? - - - Today’s Sponsor: Balance of Nature - Go to https://balanceofnature.com and use promo code KNOWLES for 35% off your first order PLUS get a free bottle of Fiber and Spice - - - Privacy Policy: https://www.dailywire.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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	These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer.
	During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice.
	How do I balance all of this grief, responsibility?
	How do you repair this kind of damage?
	My daughter, Mikaela, guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives.
	Everyone has their own destiny.
	everyone.
	Would you lean Catholic over Protestant?
	Very, very good question.
	Very spicy.
	I actually know the answer.
	I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I do know the answer.
	I would be shocked if you had any other answer.
	It's an obvious.
	I know you think it's an obvious answer.
	Welcome to Yes or No, the bibulous battle to discover who knows whom better.
	My guest today is Ben Shapiro.
	How do we play?
	I'll ask Ben a yes or no question.
	He will select his answer away from my prying eyes.
	Then I'll guess how he answered.
	If I guess correctly, I get a point.
	If I guess incorrectly, I lose a point.
	No matter what, I'll probably drink.
	Then it's Ben's turn.
	Neither of us has seen the questions beforehand.
	Whoever has the most points at the end wins.
	The stakes could be higher.
	You know, the stakes for America are also high, which is why you need to get Ben's new book, Lions and Scavengers, The True Story of America.
	Pre-order it right now.
	Ben, thank you for coming to my show in your soundstage.
	I mean, this is magical.
	It's pretty cool.
	It is pretty awesome.
	Since the last time you were on, we've kind of raised the rent a little bit.
	Yeah, you definitely have.
	So we're spending even more money.
	I didn't think it was possible.
	Yeah, we have moving lights.
	It's pretty cool.
	Now, I have to ask, what are you drinking?
	I don't know.
	Whatever they gave me.
	What is this?
	Because there was a debate.
	Apple juice.
	I'll let people in on it.
	It's a little early.
	It's the morning.
	Yes.
	And so I said, I'll have a martini, dry, a little dirty, blue cheese olives.
	Breakfast of champions.
	But apparently, I think they gave you a non-alcoholic drink.
	Did they?
	I don't know.
	Or is it the whiskey?
	I told them to give you the whiskey.
	That's whiskey.
	Is it?
	Yeah.
	All right, there we go.
	All right, I'm glad to hear that.
	It's kosher.
	It's kosher.
	Do you know the rules?
	I think so.
	I don't.
	Okay, I don't.
	But I'll go first.
	Okay.
	If I were running for president of the United States, would I need to kiss the wall?
	Do I have to?
	Wow, that's a very realistic.
	The AI has gotten good.
	Professor Jacob, your co-religionist, made this up on AI the other day and showed it.
	This is not my first time seeing this picture.
	But the question is a serious one.
	Both parties, people go to the.
	the wall in jerusalem yes if i were running would i need to kiss the wall i have to you have to get i'm gonna answer and then you i think you have to guess what i was saying yes okay okay ready okay you're it's what does ben think that you would have to do yes i i can see shapiro-esque arguments for both answers here you would say no No, I would not have to.
	Yes, you would not have to.
	Because I'm Catholic.
	Right.
	If I were Jewish, no one has to kiss the wall.
	It's ridiculous.
	It's not even like a Jewish thing.
	I had to, I was trying to explain this to some people.
	People do if they want to but it's not like it's not like a commandment to go kid it's even a commandment to visit the wall and certainly for non-jie like i've said this to ted cruse all these people they'll come to synagogues but i'll put on yamaka and i'm like i think you're not jewish i don't care i think he would have to kiss the wall or not him but i think I think for evangelical Protestants or Baptists, I think it plays very well to kiss the wall because it largely came out of evangelical movements in the 20th century.
	Whereas for Catholics, that's not like a traditional thing to do.
	You go to the Holy Sepulchre, you go to all these different places.
	But I tried to explain this to someone.
	I was like, because people say that you kiss the wall basically because the Jews force you to.
	I was like, the reason American politicians have started kissing that wall or praying at the wall, I think, I don't know, maybe you tell me if Assad has another view.
	It seems to me the reason is because evangelical Protestants have played a huge role in American politics in both parties, especially in the Republican Party.
	And they tend to be into that religious ritual.
	And so I think it's more playing to them than it is playing to Jews.
	Well, I mean, I think that's certainly true.
	I also think that it has to do with I would assume biblical solidarity, meaning like Jesus clearly, I mean, this is the temple that Jesus was talking about.
	about.
	And so it's not that Jesus was a big fan of the temple, but it is the idea that Jesus was actually, well, he was an observant Jew.
	I mean, like it does talk in the New Testament about Jesus, you know, being a Jew and doing Jewish things and such.
	And so like that whole area, these are areas where Jesus legitimately walked.
	You can walk up, I believe in September, they're going to open up the pilgrimage road that goes down from the Siloam Pool all the way up to the temple and to the Western Wall area.
	And like, you can see the stones where Jesus walked.
	You can see where he was standing and yelling at people about the money lenders in the temple and all this kind of stuff.
	So I think as sort of a, this is connected, this is like an area that Jesus was.
	I think that's probably why evangelicals are doing that sort of thing.
	But from a Jewish perspective, as you know, we've known each other a long time.
	I don't care.
	Like politicians come to shul and again, they'll put on the keep.
	I'm like, why?
	You're not Jewish.
	It's fine.
	You can wear a Yankee hat.
	Exactly.
	For me, what I would prefer, strimal.
	Well, I mean, that's, that's, That's pretty slick, right?
	you're going to go like the old school polish garb from 1750 Polish nobility.
	That's where it came from.
	Then you should totally.
	Right.
	I'm too cheap for them, though.
	Apparently, I've heard they're very expensive.
	But for all the anti-Semites in the audience, actually what we mandate is that you wear it like fully the side lock.
	And also you have to have a radio near the western wall.
	You're the Western Wall to shut it all down.
	You do.
	That's actually where they tell you, it's all right.
	He's coming.
	He can be president now.
	You're up.
	Okay.
	No clear answer.
	Okay.
	Do you, Michael Knowles, have dual loyalty to the Vatican?
	I'm warning you so you don't think that I'm cheating.
	This answer goes down about like three levels.
	I know.
	I actually think I know what the answer is going to be here.
	Okay.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	Correct.
	Why?
	Because you have sole loyalty to the Vatican.
	That's like the second level of it.
	I would say, if not for an unfortunate event in history, well, a few unfortunate events that concluded with the Lateran Treaty, but one of them was this event that began with this awful man, Garibaldi, who stole a lot of land from the church and from the Pope and all these problems into the 20th century.
	Now, I'm still an American.
	None of my family, they all came from either North Africa, also known as Sicily, or from England and Ireland.
	But if the Vatican had the papal Zuavees with that great uniform and a sword and I could go, I don't know, like slay Saracens or Lombards or something.
	We're cool.
	I'm in.
	But the reason I would say no, I don't have dual loyalty is because the loyalty to the Vatican as presently constituted, which is about half a square mile of a space, and to the United States are loyalties of a different kind.
	So one is a national loyalty, one is a spiritual loyalty.
	Just like my loyalty to the Yankees is of a different kind than my loyalty to, well, I have no loyalty to Ben Davies, but to someone on my producing team.
	That is the reason why.
	But if they reconstituted, the Vaticans are.
	Wow.
	The Vatican's army?
	No, no.
	I don't know.
	I don't know that they can.
	I mean, honestly, when I said that, I was kind of half joking, but not totally.
	And the reason I'm saying that is because of what you're saying, which is we have a very dumb down conversation about the nature of identity.
	Yes.
	And the truth is that everybody has layers of identity, right?
	So like for me on a personal level, I have an identity as a Jew, meaning like that's my religious adherence.
	And then I have an identity as a father and a husband.
	And then I have an identity as an American.
	And the idea is that these do not conflict.
	I can be a good American and also be a good Jew and also be a good dad.
	And hopefully all three of those things not only don't conflict, but actually buttress one another.
	Yes.
	And so me saying that you have like soul loyalty.
	That's like saying, if you ask literally any Christian in America, are you a Christian first or are you an American first?
	They'd always say Christian.
	They would say Christian because of course that's the answer.
	Of course, that's the answer.
	And the fact that that's somehow become like radically controversial in some way is because people make gigantic category errors about this particular question.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, of course.
	I'm not insulted by that at all, or I don't find it troublesome.
	It's not usually directed at my religious group.
	Well, it was in the 90s.
	Actually, a huge percentage of our politics from about 1830 to probably 1960 was about this, right?
	I mean, this was a major issue in the JFK campaign.
	Schlesinger said that anti-Catholicism was the deepest prejudice in America.
	Not that I always quote Schlesinger, but that was a reality.
	It was a real thing.
	I mean, watch Gangs of New York, right?
	I mean, like, this is a real thing.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, but it is funny because this is kind of what pluralism is, you know, which pluralism can be taken to too great an extreme.
	But it's like, obviously, there are different identity layers of identity.
	But this is, you know, whenever we talk.
	The Westphalian system has to come up at some point, obviously.
	Of course.
	I mean, we're a weird dog expert.
	It has to.
	We're like seven minutes into it.
	Yes, yes.
	But this is one of the problems this is one of the many problems with the modern system of nation states is it oh it just complicates everything even the very notion of a cuyus regio eus religio you know whose reign his religion it just it makes am i a nationalist like kind of am i i also think empire is fine i also think it's not like nation matters but it's not the be all and end all of my identity Right,
	and it matters in one context and not in another.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Like I don't think the king has the right to declare religious truth.
	I don't think that's real.
	That was a consequence of the end of the religious wars, but like, I don't know, most kings can barely articulate political truth.
	And this actually is the fundamental basis of the United States Constitution in many ways, which is the king does not have the power to declare religious truth.
	Now, there were many states that had instituted religions, but not at the federal level, right?
	Yeah.
	Anyway.
	Yeah, that's pretty okay.
	Hold on one second.
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	We went deep on that one.
	That was good.
	I know.
	That was, Mr. Davies is thrilled because at this rate, this episode will only be seven hours long.
	So that'll be right.
	Okay.
	Did you have, did you have a pleasant experience on Surrounded?
	There are also like, I can think of like five different ways that you.
	um I think you would say it was pleasant enough.
	Yes.
	That's right.
	Pleasant enough is a good description.
	I mean, it was rather variable.
	Being screamed at for like seven solid minutes by a trans person was not the most pleasant thing I've experienced.
	It was definitely, and at a certain point I was like, okay, I'm just going to sit here and this person's going to yell at me.
	And I was amused by the fact that nobody would raise the red flag when that person was like, it was the most boring thing in the world.
	And they're all like so intimidated by the idea that.
	This person's identity is sacrosanct.
	I must not raise the red flag.
	That's true.
	Wow.
	That gives them an advantage even in the game of surrounded.
	Yes.
	It's like, well, I can't silence.
	I can't tell this trans person to sit down and shut up, even though she's saying nothing.
	But yeah.
	And so that was kind of unpleasant.
	But overall, I thought it was pleasant.
	And afterward, a bunch of the people who had been arguing with me kind of came up and wanted to snap selfies and were kind of fans.
	And so that, yeah, but you were on it.
	What was your experience?
	I quite enjoyed it.
	I don't know.
	It wasn't a day at the beach.
	It wasn't like walking around the Parthenon or something.
	But it was pleasant in as much as...
	Yes.
	There weren't many of them, but there were a few moments.
	This is right.
	You know, the funniest thing about that show, and this I did find delightful, there was one kid on there.
	He was the kid at the top who was, he was actually raised a traditionalist Catholic.
	He's kind of fallen away for now, but he', very left-wing and all this stuff, very pro-LGBT.
	And but I was sitting there and he was starting to ask good questions.
	He was starting to go from angles of the natural law and he was kind, he was, he was a little clumsy about it, but he was starting to get into a decent conversation.
	So of course they voted him off immediately.
	Exactly.
	He's like, enough of this.
	We just need some giant maniac to yell at you.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So yeah, I enjoyed it.
	The funny thing with that show, though, is it.
	I get a kick out of that environment.
	Some people have not done well on that show.
	And you did well on the show.
	But I've noticed, without naming it, some people have had a tough time because.
	because you can win for two hours of that show.
	If the show is two hours and two minutes long, you can win two hours of it.
	If you flub for two seconds, it's very high pressure.
	It's very high pressure.
	You'll lose.
	You'll look crazy.
	It's all about the clips that come out from the thing, for sure.
	Yeah.
	And that is very, you know, it's not as though the arguments that are being made are stellar most of the time.
	Most of them are pretty terrible.
	Yeah.
	But you're right.
	But that's now kind of the name of the game on the internet.
	And so if you do any sort of long form thing, the chances that if you screw up for 30 seconds, that ends up as like the featured thing on Twitter that day is very, very high.
	That's high stakes.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	You're right.
	All right.
	Here we go.
	Hmm.
	Would banning TikTok save more lives than banning fentanyl?
	Oh, wow.
	Okay.
	I would be tempted to, because it depends how trolling you were being that day.
	No, but it's sort of like you could, do you mean save their body?
	Do you mean save their soul?
	Right.
	That's kind of where I was thinking you were gonna go.
	And I do think that that, Fentanyl, but fentanyl is killing 100,000 people a year.
	Yes.
	Yeah, it's a lot of people, but TikTok is poisoning more people at a spiritual level.
	By the tens of millions, yes.
	The difference is if we banned TikTok, they would just go to Instagram Reels or they would just go to Twitter Reels or they would just...
	Okay, fine.
	So I actually disagree with this.
	and I'll tell you why I disagree with this.
	Because if you, Yes.
	Right.
	I mean, it's not as though you can just go down to your local corner store and pick up fentanyls.
	They banned fentanyl already.
	And so banning fentanyl would not save additional lives at this point because it's already banned.
	Banning TikTok, actually, there's a delta.
	So TikTok's algorithm is tremendously good, like very, very good at featuring virality and maximizing for virality.
	And it's run by the Chinese Communist government.
	Yeah.
	And so even if you were to say that, you know, They'll go to X or they'll go to Instagram.
	First of all, Instagram does have better controls and they're not run by the Chinese government.
	And two, X is kind of a shit show at this point.
	So, you know, like it's just kind of a lot of everything all over.
	And you see people are gaming the system there for sure.
	There's a lot of bots.
	There's a lot of foreign governments that are messing around on X. I wrote a whole book about how conservatives need to get on the bandwagon of restricting speech in a proper and civilized way.
	And it completely went out the window.
	I was a prophet.
	I had my time.
	I know.
	Okay.
	So you, right.
	And that's an interesting way to read the question, which is banning TikTok would save more lives than banning Fentanyl.
	You say, well, if it saves one additional life, it's already no doubt.
	Okay.
	All right.
	That's fair.
	That's fair.
	With the hire of Isabel Brown, it seems that you may be Christian curious.
	If so, would you lean Catholic over Protestant?
	Oh, very, very good question.
	Spicy.
	It's very spicy.
	I actually know the answer.
	I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I do know the answer to this.
	I would be shocked if you had any other answer.
	Yes.
	But, um...
	No, there are some people...
	Well, I'm not going to give away mine.
	It's an obvious answer.
	I know you think it's an obvious answer.
	I understand all of the problems for the obvious, but yes, Catholic.
	So, eh?
	No, give me a break.
	That is Cope.
	That is Cope.
	That is total Cope.
	Okay, I'll tell you why.
	Okay, so in order for me to be...
	The central pitch of Christianity to me would be getting rid of all of the rituals.
	Right?
	I mean, that's like the central pitch.
	You're saying you'd want to mix it up you got to yeah man i mean like like if like i do more ritual than you right i'm like as jewish as it's possible to be almost yeah and uh and what that means is that if the i've said this before catholicism is more similar to judaism than protestantism yes by far there's no question because catholicism as i said to bishop aaron backfilled all of the ritual yeah by basically saying faith faith will save you not works but also it turns out that if you think that that is like a practical way of governing,
	it turns out that you need hierarchy and actual.
	And like, let's give some, you know, credence to James here, who says, like, you are justified not by faith alone right justified by works not by faith alone and so paul paul also complements that by writing a lot about faith but it is there's a lot of stuff you do there's a lot of 100 so it turns out that like the actual practical life of a catholic is much more similar to the practical life of a jew yeah than than protestantism so the so I guess the question is on what basis.
	So first of all, let's just acknowledge the obvious.
	Whichever Christian converts me gets a million heaven points.
	And we all understand this, right?
	Like this is, and honestly, I'm very flattered by all the people who want to convert me and care enough about my soul that they wish me to be saved.
	That's really, that's very nice of you.
	I was at the Napa.
	I'm not insulted by it at all.
	I don't find it a problem.
	I was at the Napa conference.
	It was, I don't know if this is Tails at a school or whatever.
	It's a big Catholic conference.
	And I was, anyways, speaking to a room and some people were saying like, hey, some of our favorite guys, you, Charlie Kirk, you know, Protestants, you know, how close are they?
	Whatever.
	I said, well, look, it would be tough for Ben.
	It would be, it would be tough for Ben for a number of reasons.
	It's like, but.
	I am, you're, that's such a fake answer.
	Because like, the thing is, if you converted, you would not just convert because you got sick of doing the raping.
	Yeah, you wouldn't do it because you got sick of Shabbat, which is Shabbat's actually a very nice ritual to do.
	It's not, it's not because you would have gotten sick of Friday.
	It's not, you would do it because you would be convinced that the most Jewish thing to be would be Christian.
	Right.
	Honestly, it's a totally fair argument.
	And so that's what I was going to say is if you believe that I was going to convert because I was actively attracted by the story of Jesus and his divinity, then I would probably end up Catholic.
	Give me that point.
	I want that point.
	If, however, I were to convert because I just got sick of the Jewishness of it, I'd go Protestant.
	Because, honestly, like...
	It's a lot.
	It's a lot.
	But you are right, Catholic.
	Listen, both the Pope and I wear kipas.
	You can see the picture of was so wholesome.
	It was this sweet you're giving.
	You're meeting the Pope.
	You're like, you know, Forrest Gump or something.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And you're like, you're standing there meeting the Pope.
	And then you hand him a, it was a sign.
	It was from my collection.
	I mean, I'm a White Sox fan.
	So I had in my collection a sign 2005 World Series baseball.
	And I said to him.
	You know, Your Holiness, you're Catholic.
	I'm Jewish.
	But the one miracle we can both agree on is the 2005 White Sox winning the World Series.
	And he laughed.
	He thought it was funny.
	It was funny.
	I presented it to him.
	And he goes, is it for me?
	I was like, well, yeah.
	I mean, I'm not bringing it here just to show it to you.
	It's not showing it to me.
	Look what I had, you know?
	Someone said to me, Michael, how is it that your Jewish colleague gets to meet the Pope before he's been here?
	Yeah, no, that's one of those.
	I said, well, they have, look, the Pope and I have a lot in common.
	You do.
	I said, but the Pope and Ben have a very, very deep connection.
	The Weissacks connection is carried by few.
	It's a burden carried by few.
	Is it a true suffering experience?
	Maybe sanctifying?
	Yeah, that's pretty good.
	Now, okay, my final point, look, you're going to take the point.
	He's going to, yeah, it's fine.
	But my final point on this is, okay, I get it.
	One day you say, okay, I've had enough of of the rituals.
	I want to.
	You're telling me Ben Shapiro is going to, just in order to get out of the rituals, you're going to go show up to the big auditorium with the smoke machines and the electric guitars.
	I'm going to see Ben Shapiro in that audience.
	Well, nobody thinks that's a particular type of Protestantism.
	If you become Episcopalian, that's just twice the liturgy, half the guilt of the Catholics.
	So now you're kind of right back where you were.
	I mean, Episcopalian is a whole different thing.
	I wonder if that bishopress from the National Prayer Service would love to meet you.
	I don't know.
	She hasn't answered my calls.
	Okay, you're up.
	I need to drink okay fine davey's in my ear i have to drink okay fine yeah the good news is when you lose you drink so that's nice when i win i was already drinking when i won yeah it's true okay all right it's almost it's five o'clock in india you're gonna like this one you ready is it more likely that the moon landing was faked than that brissip macron has a penis okay come on Who am I not a fan?
	Read the question again.
	Okay.
	Is it more likely that the moon landing was faked than that Brissip Macron has a penis?
	I don't know my answer to this.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Oh, he got it.
	Yeah, he got it.
	Yeah, we went to the moon.
	We definitely went to the moon.
	That's going to get 100% went to the moon.
	We went to the moon, right?
	Yeah.
	And the thing is, it's not, as I said on the show, I think there, in the political fight over the gender of the First Lady of France, there are all sorts of legal and political maneuvers that could turn lawsuits out in any direction.
	All sorts of things that are not necessarily reliant on biology.
	But we live in a time when transgenderism is accepted.
	We live in a time when people think transgenderism, some people think it's normal.
	We live in a time when people go to the doctors to get chopped up and usually they don't really look that convincing, but whatever.
	So I cannot be convinced that the Soviet Union would have let us get away with lying about the moon.
	That's my biggest problem with all the moon stuff.
	Why, if it were all fake, And it were so obviously fake that anyone in this dorm room can figure it out.
	Why would the Soviet Union let us get away with it?
	I mean, that's a great question.
	Also, questions would be like, we went back there multiple times and then golfed, right?
	Right.
	they're going also we developed like actual inventions based on things like travel to space that ended with the landing on the moon space yes but they would say yeah we've been to lunar yeah okay so so here here is my thing obviously both of these things are untrue uh that we did land on the moon and brigitte macron does not have a penis however what about carla bruni because you what about like but You are right that actually the basis of the dismissal of a case in France about this was not whether or not Brigitte Macron had a penis.
	It was that the court said you cannot show that there are damages from claiming that Brigitte Macron has a penis.
	Meaning like you can't even say that's an insult in France.
	So no damages therefore attend to the case.
	It got dismissed on that basis.
	And so you're right that the widespread acceptance of this silliness means that anything is at least slightly possible.
	I would go even further, like, yes, because you say, how are there damages?
	That's a good thing.
	If anything, you have to be tolerant.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But the other thing is on actual malice, you know, you have to prove actual malice, which means either you knew you were lying, you knew it wasn't true, but you said it anyway, or you had a reckless disregard for the truth.
	To me, Again, I'm not a lawyer, but when you're talking about the transgender issue, everyone tells us it's totally normal.
	It's existed forever.
	It's a reasonable assumption to make that someone could be transgender.
	And if you're asking me who has the reckless disregard for the truth here, it's the pro-transgender activists.
	It's not the people of all the people in the world.
	Yes, that's true.
	But yeah, I mean, the moon landing happened.
	As you know, I'm deeply annoyed by virtually all conspiracy theories because they assume a level of competence that is not in evidence.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Is there any you buy into?
	I mean...
	Do you?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I'm joking.
	It depends on the picture you look at.
	Right.
	Because some, he's a dead ringer.
	Right, exactly.
	The mom was like buddies with Castro.
	Yeah, and was traveling in that area at the time.
	Yeah.
	And was kind of known for, you know, knocking boots.
	But, yeah, but, but in general, but that kind of conspiracy theory is more plausible to me because it does not actually, it involves a personal relationship, not an actual gigantic conspiracy to accomplish anything.
	Right, exactly.
	So if you're talking about a conspiracy between two people, that's a lot more plausible to me than ever.
	Have you seen how any of these institutions work?
	They're filled with humans and humans are stupid and venal and bad at things.
	And like, I'm just, I'm just, I'm astonished that it would take more brain power to come up with the conspiracy about a moon landing than it would brain power to actually put a man on the moon.
	Yeah.
	I noticed something.
	I was totally opposed to all conspiracy theories.
	And then I got into some of them.
	I at least enjoy entertaining them because it's kind of an intellectual exercise.
	And they're kind of fun to go down.
	And then I got into them a little bit.
	And then I came out of them a little bit more.
	And the determining factor from stage two to stage three was...
	And I got a little bit into politics.
	I thought it's all a grand conspiracy.
	And then I got pretty into politics where I am spending a lot of time in the halls of power and seeing with the players.
	And I realize they are human beings.
	Yeah, it's VEEP.
	It's not discarded.
	It's definitely much.
	It's 99% VEEP and then 1% people thinking they're in hell.
	I think it's exactly right.
	I think it's exactly right.
	The other thing that I think, the reason I went from like mildly amused by it to annoyed is that.
	I do think that a lot of these theories are enervating and actually are driving negativity about the country.
	Yeah.
	I don't think that the moon landing stuff is just like, oh, it's fun to speculate about whether it's moon landing.
	Who cares?
	Whether it was really a moon.
	It was more like America was never awesome.
	America wouldn't have been capable of that.
	And it's kind of a rip on America, which I think sucks.
	America kicks ass.
	We did put a man on the moon.
	We beat the Soviets there.
	We took down their entire empire.
	We are awesome.
	And can you please stop trying?
	And I feel like every conspiracy theory, not actual conspiracies where there's actual evidence of people in a room doing a thing.
	Anthony Fauci and Jay Bhattacharya or something.
	There are false flag attacks.
	That's real.
	Yes, there are actual government operatives like Fauci who conspire to cover up.
	up crimes and do they or at least incompetence rush a gate all there that does happen yes and then there's evidence of it and then we can tell there's evidencece of it.
	But so many of the real conspiracy theories are really about just kind of in the end running down the country and also making you believe that you have no control over your own life, which is really my bug of it.
	I hate that.
	I really hate it.
	To me, the fundamental basis of Judaism and Christianity is if your life is screwed up, there's like a 95% shot that it was probably you.
	Yes.
	It's not 100%.
	Terrible things happen to people.
	People have health problems.
	A brick falls from the sky.
	Like things happen.
	But most people's problems, most of the time, are at least partially caused by them.
	On a long enough time scale.
	Yes.
	And this is a very biblical principle.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	The Old Testament, which I'm much more familiar with than the new, the Old Testament is very big on the idea that like, you screwed up and then you got walloped.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	It's not like the gods were randomly fighting in the sky and then you just kind of like got knocked over.
	Like this is, it was like, you violated the rules and then you got walloped.
	And so that's, that's in one sense scary, but on the other hand, it's actually quite empowering because it means that many things in your life are in your control.
	You see this in the New Testament, though, when, when, you know, the parable of the man is in hell and he says, oh, no, I want to go back and warn my loved ones, you know, that you can go to hell and everything.
	And he says, no.
	Why?
	You had all, all the prophets.
	You had all the, I told you so many times, like you, you think one more, no, no, no, but me one more time, I'm going to go try to, that's not going to do it, man, you know, you, you.
	And this is the thing about these people in their basements doing the conspiracy.
	Is your life better because you're doing this?
	Like, really, this is the thing.
	Is your life better because you're sitting in a basement theorizing about a shadowy cabal running your life?
	It would be if they could.
	uncover if if it if the premise were true if they could uncover the truth if they could act upon the truth then in principle would be but does that happen right it's it's it's never do any of those things happen no no no they don't uh your turn i think i'm up.
	question will follow a short video prompt.
	Speaking of...
	Ha ha ha ha.
	I'm sorry.
	Wow.
	Wow, this is good writing because they knew that we'd be talking about that.
	Now that you've seen more evidence.
	Wow, man, this is good writing.
	I never complimented.
	Wow.
	Now that you've seen more evidence, are you at least skeptical that Jeffrey Epstein killed himself?
	Oh, my God.
	We played again.
	We played again.
	Wow.
	Are you now?
	I thought Mr. Facts don't care about your feelings.
	I know.
	You're asking me not to believe my feelings.
	Okay, ready?
	Yeah.
	You are wrongly going to say no.
	No, you said yes?
	Ah, man.
	Yes, because it's a logical conundrum.
	That's a terrible piece of evidence, but I've also set up a paradigm wherein if I see additional evidence of a thing, I have to then change my opinion.
	So, you know, I think the premise of your question is that we're going to pretend that's actual evidence and not AI of Hillary Clinton.
	It's better than the video they releasedased.
	By the way, I mean, that would take some serious strength on her part, right?
	Does Hillary have that sort of grip strength that she could really go after Jeffrey Epstein then?
	Maybe.
	The Adrena Chrome.
	Yeah, that's what it does.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Did I pronounce that correctly?
	The CBS report.
	Did you see the CBS report on Epstein?
	Which one?
	The one that came out like a week or two ago.
	And it kind of just goes down the list of, okay, we've examined this video evidence.
	And yeah, it's not raw footage.
	The metadata show.
	It's a screen grab.
	Also, there's like a cursor in the footage.
	And it's missing a minute, but it might actually be closer to three minutes.
	And it goes through even beyond the video.
	is important because it shows actually there was another person kind of on camera who they said was carrying linens, but it's probably in an orange jumpsuit.
	And actually you can't see the entrance to Jeffrey Epstein's cell.
	And actually you can't and actually actually actually actually actually then it goes through all of the Confusions I don't want to say contradictions, but Contradictions in the government's reporting on this I'm not saying he didn't kill himself necessarily I'm not saying he you know is the greatest super spy that's ever lived in the whole history of the world There is no way we're getting the straight story.
	Don't you think I mean It depends on how you're defining the the straight story.
	Why would they say they're releasing the raw video?
	Say the device is reset at midnight like it's 1993.
	Now, certain government agencies, because they literally, until we, they literally were storing all government documents in a cave.
	Yeah, right, right.
	No, I get, I know, I get government agencies sometimes are like that, but you had, according to CBS at least, so, granted, they said, high government source and Intel says, that's not what's going on.
	The FBI has the full footage without the skip, without the frame reset, without.
	Come on, it's like, come on, man.
	One or two anomalies, I say, whatever.
	That's a government.
	It's like, you know, a dozen anomalies.
	So again, I said this to Megan Kelly and she got pissed at me, but the reality is that.
	I'm talking to people whose names people would know in the government who looked at all this stuff.
	So you have to now posit that they are in on it, that they are involved in the cover-up.
	And knowing the people that I'm talking about, I do not believe that they are in on the cover-up.
	I don't think President Trump is in on a gigantic cover-up.
	I certainly think that the most extreme version of this case, which is that Jeffrey Epstein was a Hassan agent who's running child sex trafficking on behalf of Israel and the West.
	With compromise on Trump.
	With compromise on Trump.
	And then Trump is covering it up.
	Like, I think, first of all, if people are actually articulating that theory, they should have the balls to just say it out loud.
	Yeah.
	See how President Trump takes it from them.
	Yeah.
	I know they like to kind of flirt around the edges of it, but they don't, they won't actually say that the thing.
	But, yeah, Dershowitz said that he thinks that Epstein killed himself, but that he was probably aided in the killing of himself.
	That I find plausible.
	Yeah.
	Because you did have somebody who was removed from his cell.
	He had a cellmate.
	The cellmate was gone.
	He went out.
	But he apparently, according to the CBS report, he went out, he made a phone call, an unsupervised phone call, like hours before he...
	And you can see why he would kill himself.
	He's about to spend the rest of his life in prison for raping children, which, as it turns out, is a really, really bad way to spend the rest of your life.
	So, you know, could there be, again, if there were, is every question I have answered?
	No.
	No, I have to make a judgment now as to who I think is lying.
	And I haven't seen the evidence to suggest that the people I'm talking about are lying.
	And if they are lying, I want to know why they're lying and what your theory of the case is.
	I'll give you my reason why they're lying.
	Okay.
	Because my view, as is often the case, is probably the least popular view, but it's certainly correct, which is I don't think the government's being forthright.
	I think the government has contradicted itself many times on this.
	I think even just looking at the video.
	The video was told on itself in a way, you know, just the reset and the time and the framing and everything.
	The interpretation of what the video showed, whatever.
	But because I'm.
	not a libertarian and because I'm not like one of these, you know, I'm, I think politics is a complicated, nuanced system of alliances and longstanding operations that go on for many presidential administrations.
	The Epstein thing long predates Trump.
	And we know, we've known now since 2018, though Radar Online reported it as breaking news like three days ago, that...
	It was FOIAD in history.
	And they say it was FOIAD now.
	But this was reported in 2018 that the FBI was getting information.
	We have memos from the FBI.
	It was getting information from Epstein.
	Well, it's part of his plea deal, which again is incredibly common.
	So yes, by the way, I should mention here that what the document says is that as part of the plea deal, which means that it was supposed to close the case, essentially, he was going to provide information.
	But that does not mean in an ongoing relationship.
	That's true.
	It could have been before that case.
	I just want to be clear about the legal.
	I mean, that is the legal of it.
	Now, maybe he was, but there's been no evidence of that.
	And again, I think that...
	But if the government...
	But my argument is governments don't have to be.
	Governments are not meant to be radically transparent.
	Governments do sometimes cover up intelligence they're getting from people.
	They do cover up certain clandestine operations.
	I think what the American people want on the Epstein thing is they want to know that justice is being done.
	in some way.
	So I think that's true for some.
	I think what some people really, really want is for there to be a giant ring of pedophile people who control the world.
	Yes, anything short of that is going to be insufficient to quell the uprest.
	Right.
	Yeah, no, that's true.
	And it's like, if a bunch of these people who are pushing this got what you said, which is, okay, you know, here are the names of three low-level randos who Jeffrey Epstein trafficked girls to.
	And that's it.
	And we're prosecuting them.
	Right.
	They would not be satisfied.
	No one would be satisfied.
	Certainly not.
	Because what they actually want is for there to be this thing that happened.
	Because it's a nice thing to believe.
	Again, it goes back to the whole like, there's a secret cabal running your life.
	Again, if you provide me evidence that the secret cabal is running, then you're now in the position of having to argue that Donald Trump and Cash Patel and Zambogino and Pam Bondi are all involved in the secret cabal or covering up for the secret cabal.
	And the people who, again, are opposing the strongest version of this theory do not have the balls to just say it out loud.
	They're constantly playing around the edges.
	Yeah.
	It's funny.
	This is where as more of a traditionalist, I just say, like, if they're not releasing everything for whatever reason, I think I like them for their judgment.
	Well, you and I are making kind of similar arguments here.
	Meaning, like, I don't know.
	I don't know what's in the files.
	You don't know what's in the files.
	But you know who's in the files?
	Cash.
	Dan.
	Right.
	presumably Trump presumably JD yeah like they're all meeting on it this week so yeah yeah it's true they're all meeting on it a couple weeks ago yeah yeah it is but I'm I'm still pretty firmly team nothing ever happens the number of things that happen in history that like happen happen yes that like happen yeah it's like four I agree maybe five I agree okay I think I'm reading you a question yes here you go we have a message from Lizzo mmm my jeans oh come on
	are still stolen wow okay wow um Was the Sydney Sweeney version better?
	You have to guess my answer.
	Yeah.
	Did I enjoy it?
	I don't know.
	It's both body shaming and racist, wasn't it?
	Yeah, I could make a little joke or something, but...
	Sydney Sweeney Jeans ad.
	I said the whole time, two cheers for Sydney Sweeney Jeans.
	Because it's not, I don't think like women bearing a lot of their bodies and like inciting lusts is like the...
	The best thing.
	But Right.
	And she's very beautiful and she's normal.
	This is a very good take.
	So I said this on the show, that I'm old enough to remember when conservatives went nuts over Paris Hilton grinding on a car for a Carl's Jr. commercial in like 2005.
	That was like a big thing on the right.
	I remember.
	Yeah.
	And we were all like, what is this?
	She's only famous for doing pornography.
	And here she is grinding on a car to sell burgers.
	Yeah.
	Like, what the hell?
	Like, this is gross.
	And so I'm still from that school, which is it is not good for me, but we live in a time in which.
	They have gone so far crazy that it is now right-wing coded for a beautiful woman to be on your TV in a sexy way.
	Yeah.
	And so like, I've said this before about politics is one of the very weird things about politics is that it's sort of like that optical illusion where you take one, a color and you put it against blue and then you put it against yellow and it looks like two separate colors, but it's the same color.
	Yes.
	Right.
	So if I go on Bill Marshall and I say a thing, I look like a rabid right winger, but if I go on a show with you, then I look like a moderate.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Like this, like it's the exact same thing, word for word.
	So I feel like that about this particular jeans ad.
	You put this jeans ad on TV in 2005 and we're all like, man, the kind of pornification of American society just continues a pace.
	It's not great.
	and then you put it next to by the way men are women and this could have been Dylan Mulvaney yes and it would have been That war ad was crazy.
	100%.
	Yes.
	I mean, I had this thought, which is my reaction to the Sidney Sweeney ad is, that's a good ad.
	I'm fairly disciplined.
	But if I looked at the ad too long, my reaction might be, oh, it's a nice ad.
	I'll watch it again.
	But my reaction to the creepy androgynous weirdo sex ad is...
	Yeah.
	It's actually a, because in one, it's appealing to the Puritan interest in a way that is natural.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	In the other, it's appealing to the Puritan interest in a way that is entirely contrary to nature and everything we know about reality?
	I guess the former is better.
	Right, exactly.
	Right?
	I'm with you.
	Okay.
	I'm up.
	But you know what's going to happen before I read this question, Ben?
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	Yes or no, because the family game night wasn't heated enough.
	Ben, do you know what time it is?
	I don't.
	It's time for the rapid fire round.
	Slow fire.
	It was the slower fire.
	But I have to say on the dogs going to heaven thing, that is an unanswerable question once you have kids.
	We have a dog and I have four kids, 11, 9, 5, and 2.
	And I was asked this question.
	Yes.
	And you know the answer.
	Of course I know the answer.
	And so you are left with two possible answers to a child.
	One is to lie and the other is to also lie.
	It is to either say, yes, the dog goes to heaven.
	Yeah.
	Or two, the dog never dies.
	Right.
	Right.
	I actually felt the second was less blasphemous.
	Yeah.
	I went with, don't worry, we'll come up with medicines and the dog will be 150 years old.
	Wow.
	You didn't even do like, well, maybe the dog, we'll send the dog to a farm.
	No, I didn't.
	Ashbox.
	No, you're not going to send it to a glue factory.
	No, I guess that's horse.
	My son did say this the other day.
	He, for some reason, was just in a...
	He turns to me and he's like, I'm very sad the dog's going to die.
	And I was like, yeah, the dog's really young.
	I mean, the dog's like two and a half years old, probably lived to be 15 or whatever.
	That's the most Shapiro.
	Like you're a Shapiro kid.
	You're just like, well, in 11 years, this.
	years this is what's going to happen yes i need to prepare he's like he's still like kind of like listen you know we can we can talk about this but let's let's be real like in a billion years the sun's going to explode and eat the earth so like you know we just put off this conversation for another day he was like you think the episode the dog's going to die wait till you hear what's going to happen to us someday exactly i said we'll all be dead by then He asked me about that one time.
	He's like, is it true the sun's going to eat the earth?
	I was like, yeah, we'll all be dead by then.
	Who cares?
	Yeah, we'll all be.
	Whatever.
	I know.
	I know.
	I was just talking about this with Elisa last night.
	I was saying, she was saying, how do we tell the kids about, they're reading fairy tales and they're talking about, like, so-and-so died.
	So-and-so almost died someone's almost died and they're starting to wonder about death it's like what do we tell them yeah we're going to tell them brutal realities which includes some hope but it's going to be By the way, I mean, death kind of naturally comes up in a biblical worldview pretty much all the time.
	Yeah.
	I mean, like it's within the first few chapters of the Bible.
	Yeah.
	Like you're there.
	I was, we were in it, we were walking around a church in Italy.
	And so it's like, oh, the tour guide said, there's a skull over there of saint.
	I don't remember what saint.
	And, but, you know, it's very controversial, the veneration of relics.
	It's not controversial to me.
	But it's very controversial.
	And I don't know if you want to see the, and then my two-year-old, I want to see the skull.
	Show me the skull.
	There you go, buddy.
	My son, we went to, we were in Italy, went to one of these, it was actually Malta.
	We went to one of these catacombs.
	And they had unburied some of the, there's like a skull and some bones there.
	And my son was like, I can't believe that, like, and so later he turns to me and said, you know, dad, I never thought that I was actually going to see that face to head.
	I was looking right at him.
	Face to face.
	Yes, face to head.
	It was very funny.
	Now, Ben, do you know how to play this round?
	I don't.
	I don't either, but they put it on in my teleprompter three rounds 30 seconds no time to outthink each other oh give it a shot that's that's short hand for shut up yeah okay uh you're up no i'm up i'm up okay ready rapid fire even though they're crafted in the likeness of pagan idols are lab labboo boos i laborboos laborboos or lababus like a succubus incubus are labboos totally fine Yeah,
	you're gonna say yes, you sicko Oh, no, you said no.
	I thought you had one on your set I mean my my producers put it there, but I don't I don't approve of that.
	It's like wow.
	My babies are just like my children.
	I don't approve of what they do.
	Yeah, no, that's fair.
	Yeah, no, nothing named after and looking like a demon gets to go on set.
	That's crazy.
	Do you believe the remains of giants can be found?
	You're going to say no.
	All right.
	Yeah, because, again, it gets into definitions.
	It's like, are we talking about, like, a giant back in biblical days, which means, like, some of the people around the office.
	Yeah, he's like 5'8.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Given the overwhelming scientific evidence for the miraculous image on the Shroud of Turin, have you been shroud pilled?
	I know the answer, but there's a good episode.
	if you're a doubter of a show called Michael and that you can watch about this.
	Are you shroud pilled?
	You are, for now, so far going to say no.
	Correct.
	I'll watch your episode.
	Okay.
	The episode is good.
	And this is weird.
	It's with a Protestant.
	I thought the Catholics were the shroud people.
	Whoa, don't you automatically go to hell?
	Do you for bringing Protestants out?
	Johnston, he was amazing.
	And actually, another guy came in with the Sudarium of Oviedo.
	It's very good.
	And I was actually very glad because I said to Davies, I said, I thought only Catholics believed in the Shroud.
	He's what are you talking about?
	I believed in the Shroud my whole life.
	and anyway you should watch it you should watch it i know nothing about the shroud and then i'll definitely watch it.
	Watch it, and then we'll see.
	Okay.
	And then do you go to the auditorium with a smoke-filled thing?
	And then we get to that set.
	Okay, here we go.
	Per words written, are your books more successful than mine?
	What?
	Okay, hold on.
	By word.
	BEEP
	Yeah, for sure.
	Now, the thing is, if it had been copies sold total, then it would have been hundreds of thousands of books.
	Yeah, for sure.
	Okay.
	All right, I'll take that.
	Okay.
	But you contributed to that book.
	I'll never get a word.
	I'll never get a word.
	I'll never get a book.
	Yeah.
	It was the most important word.
	It was a key..
	And then I got you an agent for that book.
	And you got a second advance on that book.
	Well, for the rights.
	Yeah, for the rights.
	For the blank book.
	Yeah, of course.
	Unbelievable.
	Does standing and sitting methodically during mass count as physical exercise for you?
	Yeah, it does.
	Well, he forgot kneeling because he's a Protestant.
	There's nobody.
	But it does also, because...
	So that's actually, that's like all the little muscles in there.
	Are you surprised you've lasted as long as you have at this company?
	Are you surprised?
	Hey, hey, hey.
	I'll give a...
	You got it wrong.
	Give me those points.
	It's not a lack of self-confidence.
	I'm not surprised that I have lasted in any organization.
	I could have at least been the pizza boy or something.
	didn't when the company was starting up.
	It's not that I just, these things don't last.
	I mean, like the company itself?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And so I was like, oh, whatever.
	That'd be a fun thing to help out on for like six months or a year, whatever.
	That was like at this point, 47 years ago?
	How long have we been doing this?
	10 years in real time, but like the planet's an interstellar.
	It's actually like seven.
	70 years in politics.
	Yeah.
	That it's amazing.
	Okay.
	Now Ben, it's time for the final round.
	The prompt will be read.
	We will both lock in our answers, then move our glasses to yes or no to see if we can read each other's minds.
	This round is worth double points.
	It could change everything.
	The score right now Ben.
	This is unfortunate.
	I actually didn't think it was this bad.
	It's one to three.
	Oh wow.
	Okay.
	You're winning.
	Okay, so the way you do it, I'm going to put my glass here.
	This hold on.
	I'm going to move these cards because all the books and all the merch that we're hawking shamefully.
	So I read the prompt Then We each lock in how we would answer for ourselves.
	Yes Then we move the other guy's glass.
	Okay, how we think the other guy would answer Okay, if it were allowed by the Constitution Would you support a third Trump presidency?
	In principle or in practice?
	I'm overcomplicating it.
	If it were allowed by the Constitution, would you support a third Trump presidency?
	If there had not been that amendment, would you be in favor of him running again?
	Okay, it's my own.
	answer here.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Correct.
	Wrong.
	Wrong.
	I mean, good answer.
	But okay, so why?
	Why, yes.
	I actually think that, shockingly, Donald Trump is now the most rational person maybe in American politics.
	Like, truthfully.
	Like, I actually think that Yes.
	I think that we're at the end of something.
	And I think that Trump is holding back a flood tide of bad stuff.
	Oh, interesting.
	Right.
	I think that Trump is a populist by appeal, but a pragmatist by nature.
	Yeah.
	And so he's not ideologically a populist in the sense that he's just going to continue running that car directly into the deep.
	Populism doesn't work.
	could see a world where you get somebody very ideological after Trump on the right, either in a very populist direction, which I would oppose, or in a very anti-populist direction, which would provide some political problems.
	Trump is a...
	And I don't agree with everything he's doing.
	I've opposed his tariff wars, for example.
	I don't think they're a good idea.
	I've criticized some of the way, like firing the BLS head.
	I think there's stuff he does that I don't particularly love.
	But what I've said about him is that he's heterodox but responsive.
	And so he will do a thing that he'll break a long established precedent.
	And at least half the time, that's very good.
	Yeah.
	At least half the time, that's really good.
	He's done this on foreign policy a lot, and I've loved it.
	He's done it some on domestic policy, and I've really loved it as well, right?
	Going after DEI, for example, which was like an untouchable thing.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Breaking the trans momentum, like all of that.
	And so the question of a third term or not for him is because I don't know who picks up the mantle of sort of pragmatism.
	in a popular way after Trump on the right.
	And I think what comes after him on the left is going to be egregiously awful.
	You know, I have, I came to the same answer.
	I have totally different reasoning.
	My reasoning is more in principle.
	I know this is unpopular in some quarters.
	I'm with Ronald Reagan.
	I hate the 22nd Amendment.
	I'm anti-term limits as well.
	Yes, we have a term limit.
	It's called the ballot box.
	And I think the way the government is set up.
	fairly consciously actually by our framers is to be a mixed regime where you have a monarchical element an aristocratic element a democratic element that kind of balances each other out and fdr uh took that obviously to an extreme that's how you get the the 22nd amendment but i so i like the idea of more continuity of the executive kind of flexing itself so we're not just governed by judges or whatever and uh And I think Trump has done a very, very good job.
	I'm a little more hopeful about the future of the Republicans.
	You're friendlier to the populist kind of sentiment than I am.
	Without question.
	And I do see an uptick in traditionalism, in a good kind of...
	It's more a tactic than a philosophy, to be fair.
	Yes.
	And I think there are a lot of people in the administration who are great.
	Obviously, probably the air apparent is the vice president.
	I'd be thrilled with that.
	Rubio is getting a lot of play right now as Secretary of State, and he has like a hundred other jobs.
	But I think even there are other people who could run for president in the admin, in Congress.
	It could go wrong, but I think there's good stuff.
	But I was waiting when Trump was re-elected for a full Charles II moment.
	He shows up to Capitol Hill in a joint session.
	Gentlemen, go home.
	You are not needed here.
	We will govern ourselves.
	But we still have that 22nd Amendment.
	That's life.
	Okay, you're up.
	Morally speaking, Is AI-generated porn worse than real porn?
	Hmm.
	Hmm.
	Oh, my God.
	Okay.
	This is not I don't have a confident answer on this You're gonna say no and I'll barely say no.
	I'll barely say yeah, yeah Why?
	Because AI generated porn involves the sinfulness and evil of the person who is typing in the prompt, but does not involve a second party who is prostituting herself and Real porn involves multiple parties being horrific in a myriad of ways that empty sacks of its meaning, content, joy.
	Yeah.
	And yeah, so I mean, it's AI, first of all, I assumeume AI-generated porn will mostly be just men using grock imagine to fulfill their most perverse fantasies.
	Exactly.
	They're most perverse.
	So I think that you're thinking there's a limiting principle here for the ladies on OnlyFans, and I think you are wrong.
	So I think that if you pay with ladies on OnlyFans enough, they will do whatever is the most perverse.
	But they're at least limited by reality.
	Strains of reality.
	You're not being raped by an alien?
	Yeah.
	No, this is the issue for me is it...
	There are these medieval arguments, which I'm sure you've seen, which are that, you know, like masturbation is worse than rape or something, or that sodomy is worse than rape or something.
	And people are so shocked by that because they say, well, one's consensual, one's not consensual.
	The reasoning behind those arguments is that they're both terrible, but one is contrary to nature, whereas one is not contrary to nature.
	And so that's an argument for another time.
	Leave it to the scholastics.
	But you can see this play out in the AI thing.
	What are people going to use AI porn for that they can't get on OnlyFans or any of these other things?
	They're going to go undress their classmates.
	You see these reports about this all the time.
	They're going to go make porn of people they know.
	They're going to create porn of things that cannot exist in reality, that are so going to melt their brains there was an article just the other day in wired magazine a guy who got addicted to ai porn and it was creating these creatures that are like not barely recognizably human and so you said well is that is that more evil to so contradict reality even if it doesn't involve immediately harming another person i mean this is a this is a good argument i like this argument i i think i think it's a good argument i I think that you can make the
	case that, what was the wording of the question?
	It's always porn.
	Is it worse?
	Except for that one time.
	Is it worse?
	I mean, if we wanted to like really quibble, you could make the case that in the immediate ramifications real porn is worse in the societal ramifications ai porn is worse yeah you could make that argument yes um although i do think that removing the incentive structure whereby women get naked for money yeah that's what a porn will do is going to be a good thing a lot of these young women who right now think that their their pathway to fame and fortune is by essentially being online prostitutes yeah uh the business goes away and it steals their jobs and the crazy thing about all this maybe the thing they can actually offer to
	people in real life would be like marriage.
	Yeah.
	Like actual, like real physical sexual activity with another human being involved in a deeper relationship.
	Like all the best parts of what you are simulating on OnlyFans, you can do that in a way that will be edifying and lead you to happiness and flourishing.
	Maybe...
	I don't know.
	It's awful.
	It's terrible.
	Yeah.
	It, it, the other, just one last point on the OnlyFans thing.
	They, they do it because they think they're going to make millions of dollars.
	And because like one of them ever made millions of dollars.
	It's like...
	That's the craziest part.
	I mean, even the ones who make a lot of money have destroyed themselves.
	Yes.
	Destroyed themselves.
	They usually lose the money, too.
	I mean, that, too.
	But they destroy, yeah, it's like there is no amount.
	There's no life behind Bonnie Blue's eyes.
	Yeah, it's awful.
	That lady is dead inside.
	It's horrifying.
	Dead inside, and you can see it.
	It's like, it's kind of horrifying.
	Do not turn yourself into a human lub-lub-lus.
	What is that thing called?
	Lububu.
	Lububu.
	Don't do it.
	Don't turn yourself into a...
	I love that you turn it into a Latin term.
	Lububus.
	Lububus, lububi, lububo.
	Yes.
	Final score.
	That's...
	Are you kidding me?
	Seven to one.
	got wrecked.
	I got wrecked.
	That might be the worst one ever.
	No, because at least I didn't go negative.
	I didn't go into the negative numbers.
	Right now, you need to go pre-order Mr. Benchbro's new book, Lions and Scavengers, The True Story of America.

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