The Michael Knowles Show - Michael & The Diddy Escort: “Diddy Watched the Whole Time”

July 19, 2025 - The Michael Knowles Show

01:37:40

Michael & The Diddy Escort: “Diddy Watched the Whole Time” | Shawn Dearing

In this explosive new episode of Michael &, Michael Knowles sits down with Shawn, the former escort who just went public about what he saw behind closed doors with Diddy. From secret parties and A-list clients to his personal message for Cassie — no question is off limits. Is there more to the Diddy scandal than the media is telling you? You’re about to find out. - - - Today’s Sponsor: Good Ranchers - Visit https://goodranchers.com and subscribe to any box using code KNOWLES to claim $40 off + free meat for life!

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	So I don't know who I'm seeing.
	And uh, so I show up to the address, I go up to the door, knock, and she opens the door.
	So you say it's very performative.
	She's like, okay, sit there.
	She puts a towel down.
	She's like, hey, just don't pour the baby oil all over me.
	And I see like the little slith in the room.
	There were times in the sessions where I saw that demon, the demon that she talked about.
	Personal demon, you know, these are the demons that are afflicting me.
	Or Diddy.
	Yeah, Diddy.
	You actually did this stuff.
	Your name and your picture were revealed in court.
	Revealed in court, and then it went to go mainstream when 50 posted that picture.
	So this guy is a sex crazed.
	Yeah.
	She was under his control.
	Because there's video of him beating her in a hallway.
	I'm supposed to be there that night.
	explosive P. Diddy has gotten off the hook for the worst charges that he faced pertaining to his freak offs and weird sex parties over decades.
	But nobody denies that those parties happened, that he engaged in depraved, crazy sexual activities, that he had his girlfriends sleep with multiple men who were hired for the occasion.
	And I am right now joined by one of those men.
	That would be Sean Deering.
	Sean, thank you for being here.
	Pleasure to meet you, Michael.
	Pleasure to meet you.
	Thank you for flying in for this.
	P. Diddy beat the tough charges, even though all the things he's accused of doing, maybe not the crimes, but the activities, the parties, the sex, everything.
	No one denies that he actually did those things.
	He did them for decades.
	And you're one of the guys he hired to sleep with his girlfriend.
	Yeah.
	How did you get into that?
	I lived in LA prior to that.
	I'm born and raised in Hawaii.
	And I was figuring out where am I headed with life.
	Tried college, three and a half years, didn't exactly find my way.
	And after that, decided to join the workforce.
	And one thing I realized, I love serving.
	So I started out serving restaurants and such.
	And it was kind of like a rolling ball effect.
	I just tried to make the most of it.
	So from there, I was working in Southern California for a bit.
	And a friend of mine helped open up a valet venture in Vegas.
	So from there, I got into the bar industry.
	And then the bar industry, I was introduced to a wonderful girlfriend that thought I should model one day.
	I thought she was joking when she asked me because I look in the mirror and I don't know.
	I see a funny looking guy.
	You could look at you.
	I can't look at it.
	I think, you know, I thought she was joking with me.
	So she challenged me to model.
	She said she knew photographers and stuff.
	And I said, babe, if you think I can model, I'm going to give it my all.
	Like Sir William Hung is a lifelong item of mine.
	You know, the she bangs, she bangs.
	You know, I remember watching that.
	That guy lit me up.
	And one thing he said is, everything I do, I give it my best.
	And so I'm kind of that way.
	You know, that kind of stuck with me.
	And I just tried to give everything I had in modeling.
	And then that led to a profile on Model Mayhem.
	You remember Model Mayhem?
	I've heard the name of it.
	It's sort of the, I think it's like the old school MySpace style of the model industry.
	Okay, yeah.
	Go in, put your profile on there.
	It was Explore Talent, Model Mayhem.
	I remember there were these go make it big in show business kind of websites.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, kind of the beginning of the pipeline, I guess you would say.
	And so my girlfriend had me put my profile on there.
	And so I do.
	And I thought it was a, you know, I'm going to go.
	I'm going to get at my best.
	And I tried, I put it on there.
	And then a few months later, we get a message from Mr. Garen James, who is the guy who owns the company Cowboys for Angels.
	I thought it was a joke.
	I thought it was spam.
	I thought somebody wanted me to send them more pictures and be like, hey, I'm interested in you.
	So I showed my girlfriend.
	I was like, hey, look, this guy's messaging me.
	And her and I had come across some of his episodes of that Showtime show, Gigolo, in the past.
	Hold on.
	I'm not totally familiar with Cowboys for Angels or the Gigolo show.
	This agency is a Yes.
	Well, the proper term would be the escort service.
	The terminology is slipping me.
	But it's a...
	In nicer words.
	Using some softer verbiage.
	Yes, in a sense.
	But the, you know, on that same note, I did go on dates where sex wasn't involved.
	It was a compensation for our time.
	So that's the idea behind it is that the women are compensating us for our time.
	Whatever happens between adults is between two consenting.
	So people hear that and they say, well, that sounds like legal CYA kind of stuff.
	But you're saying, no, you, you join this agency and sometimes a woman would just hire you to go to dinner or something.
	Yeah.
	There was one woman I went on four dates with and we never had sexual encounters.
	There were times at the end of the dates, they would start to wrap up and she would inquire on having more hours.
	And she's like, I'm going to get in trouble.
	You got to go.
	And I'm like, the choice is yours.
	All right.
	Have a wonderful night.
	And so it was just, yeah, you know, you let the lady take the lead.
	Okay, now, hold on.
	So your girlfriend says you should be a model.
	You start being a model.
	Then this guy says, hey, do you want to be an escort?
	He messaged me on this site and I thought it was a joke.
	So you show your girlfriend.
	What does your girlfriend say?
	And we were together at the time and I was like, well, I'm not going to indulge in this.
	I was showing her.
	I was like, look at the spam.
	Like, can you believe this guy?
	It's not him.
	He's messaging me on this site.
	And then about a year later, we ended up breaking up.
	She was a very wonderful one, wise, and just had a good head on her.
	And as we're breaking up, it was a cordial breakup.
	She was like, remember that guy?
	You know, you need money.
	You need to need a new path.
	You should probably message that guy.
	And I'm one.
	I didn't think I'd ever want to be an escort.
	I didn't think I would jump into this.
	I am a man of God.
	I love and serve God, but I've also sinned.
	Now, at the time, before you accept the offer from the escort agency, Would you have called yourself a Christian and said you believed in God?
	You would have.
	Oh, yeah.
	If the man asked me, I would have told him I love and serve God.
	We're not even at the diddy part, and I'm already, this is pretty wild.
	You're dating this girl.
	She's the one who gets you into modeling.
	Then you say, hey, this gigolo guy just wants to work with me, and you don't do anything with it.
	Then as you're breaking up, this girl sounds like a horrible influence.
	It says, be a model, and then, hey, by the way, you should go be a gigolo now that we're broken up.
	It was one that you could look at it how you choose, but she saw something in me and challenged me.
	And I'm one if there's a challenge or if someone thinks I can do something, I didn't see how possibly personally degrading it could be, you know, on the outskirts.
	What were you, okay, then what at the time, you're viewing this in this very positive way.
	You say it's a challenge, I could do it, it's kind of like modeling.
	So if you didn't think, and I've heard this from multiple people, you didn't think it was going to be so degrading, you know, when you're getting into it.
	What did you think it was going to be?
	I wanted to, the fact that I could spend time with someone.
	I'm very much a people person.
	I just love people.
	And then with my first girlfriend that I had out of high school, I was in a four-year relationship with her.
	Another amazing, beautiful girl, woman, but I realized I didn't listen.
	Right.
	And so I realized like I'm spending time with these women and I love listening.
	I do like hearing them.
	And as a young man, sex is fun, even though I understand it is sinning.
	So was that part of it, though, when you're signing up?
	Because look, I could get it.
	How old were you at this point?
	What was that part of it?
	It wasn't about 24.
	So part of that is you're a 24-year-old guy.
	You say, hold on, wait a second.
	I'm going to get paid to sleep with women.
	What's the catch?
	Exactly.
	So you're thinking that a little bit, too?
	Not necessarily as an incentive, but just like it was the, when I got the message from Garen, I just was shocked, right?
	I was shocked.
	I was like, oh, snap.
	He messaged me back.
	And he's like, I'm going to be in Vegas in two days.
	Can we sit down and have a conversation?
	And so I was back in LA at the time.
	So I'd boogied over to Vegas and I don't think I stayed with my ex-girlfriend.
	I forget where I stayed.
	But I stayed over, had a quick meeting with him and I was shocked.
	And so I was on, I just let the ball roll.
	I was like, he messaged me back.
	I went with it.
	And then a few, about a week later, he put me on his team.
	How many people are on the team?
	At that time, probably about 12 to 15, but I think there's a lot more now because I saw.
	So this is still an operation.
	Yes, yeah.
	So, okay.
	So, and it's grown.
	So then at the time, you go out, you're interested in this opportunity, and you've got three potential motivations.
	One is helping the women.
	You want to talk and listen to the women.
	One is sex, and one is money.
	If you had to rank them, how would you rank those three motivations?
	The first one.
	I like people.
	It was mostly the people.
	You want to help people.
	You want to talk to people.
	You want to listen to the women.
	Okay.
	So you sign up for the company.
	Then what?
	About a week later, he calls me.
	He's like, all right, got our first date.
	I told every little experience.
	So go in, own it, be here this date this time.
	And so it was just show up.
	And that's in that setting there in LA.
	Many people have the fake it T, make it mentality.
	And so I could see that.
	You know, I was like, I had to instill confidence, though, is what it was.
	You know, I realized the fake it T, make it thing, it sits, but if you're faking it, you're lying to yourself right off the bat.
	And so just have the confidence to attain, in a sense.
	And so that's how I led with.
	I went in and my first date, I got extended hours, which the guy likes.
	you know, it's more money all around and so from there it, the dates just,
	When you say extended hours, is that a euphemism or is that is that does that is that just a code word for sex or is that does it just mean you go out and you actually have more drinks or whatever yeah so you know they they hire for a time frame and if you go beyond that then it's extra money and such and so and that's what the guy says you're there for this X hours but if it continues just message me in the morning and we'll take care of all the money and such or things of that nature so yeah that first date got
	extended, and I think that was kind of the, I guess he saw something, and the ball kept rolling from there.
	I wasn't the, you know, 10 dates a month guy.
	It was, you know, max three to four, and then sometimes it would go two to three months.
	Okay, not to pry too much, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but that first date, this is your introduction to this industry.
	Yeah.
	Is it, are you just chatting over warm milk and cookies, or is it?
	No, it started out at a bar there along the Malibu coast, you know.
	She's sitting at a bar, and walk up, and introduce myself, and we start chatting, and get a drink, and dance, and then that's when she, my first client was like a well-off lawyer, and she kind of broke it down to me why she had acquired me that night.
	Why?
	She made it very clear.
	She's a very busy one.
	She doesn't want to go to a bar and get hassled and hackled.
	She knows what she wants.
	She wants to go out, have a good time, and then she wants to be able to have her own household when she wants it, and so it was, I could see it, like she wanted to be appreciated, but not heckled or hassled, and she liked that her level success gave her the ability to do that, to be able to control that situation.
	So I had to play respectfully, accordingly, you know, and that's, I think that's one of the keys of my roots as a Hawaii boy
	boy you lead with respect you show respect to get respect that was one of the keys I think that helped me in this industry is I just I respect people okay now again you you can just tell me I don't want to answer that did you sleep with her or not yes you did okay okay that was a different time in your life and obviously you've gotten out of it but that's the reason I'm asking that is now all of a sudden after this first Date after this first job, you now know, okay, hold on.
	I'm not, this ain't just modeling anymore.
	I am, I'm now in the sex industry.
	Did that, how did that work?
	Did that warp your perception of yourself or no?
	I mean, I didn't, you know, I didn't, yeah, I didn't see it that way.
	I mean, obviously it is.
	It's clear as day.
	I can deny it all, but it is that.
	I could see how to, like, that voice inside, if I'm not doing it, someone else will.
	And I truly do appreciate this woman, and I don't want her to be treated or felt like she's only being used for her money, in a sense.
	So that was kind of in my soul.
	It was like, that was one of those things.
	Why helped me to be able to do it, you know, and not feel.
	In your mind, you're saying, I'm not just doing this for the money.
	Yeah.
	That is one.
	It was a challenge.
	I never thought that would happen.
	I never thought that.
	I never wanted that door to open, but opportunity came and I jumped on it or I owned it.
	So, but now who is forgive my ignorance of this.
	In my mind, a male gigolo, it was kind of like Playgirl.
	Guys buy Playboy and guys buy Playgirl, right?
	In my mind, it was either straight guys hiring women or gay guys hiring men.
	I did not think that women would actually hire a male prostitute or a gigolo or an escort or whatever the term is.
	It was women, though.
	Yeah.
	About 90% of the clients were women, and then a few others were the males.
	Husbands hired me for their partner, their wife.
	It happened a few.
	It wasn't very prevalent, but it happened, yeah, quite a few times.
	And it's one of those that, yeah, it learned a lot.
	I learned a lot.
	How old are these women?
	The oldest was about 45.
	And the other one, one who was in their late 20s, some of them were beautiful couples that were...
	So they would say things like they wanted to do like a sex act or something they thought was freaky and they were too scared to say it to their loved one because they didn't want them to be like, oh, I don't want to do that.
	That's gross.
	But then, you know, I'd be brought into the setting and it just would open up the sexual conversations.
	And so they were, in a sense, it was exciting to them, but it was the, it's sad to say it was the beginning of the unraveling.
	So it's funny because I can, as you're explaining this, I can kind of get that in principle, that it's almost easier if there's a third person.
	But it's kind of funny in a way to say, I'm too embarrassed to ask for some sort of sexual behavior with my wife or girlfriend.
	So instead I'm going to propose bringing in a male escort.
	That's somehow less odd or...
	They wanted, like, he wanted his wife to have fun with another woman.
	And so this was somewhat of the, I guess, balancing factor.
	It was a way to not make it seem as bad, I guess, for them and to see, see, I want my sex fun, and I'm allowing you to have your sex fun.
	That seems truly, like, I see as you're describing it, that's like the middle ground.
	To me, that seems like the exact, like, worst case scenario.
	If you're a guy, you say, well, I have this deviant fantasy about two women.
	So I'll meet in the middle and I'll bring in another guy.
	They called it the devil's threesome.
	I think in college, I remember people saying that.
	So anyway, okay.
	So it's women.
	All of this is subverting my expectations.
	It's women.
	It's not just women.
	It's relatively young women.
	Are they, put aside the cuckold couples for a second.
	The women, you say one of them is, okay, she's rich.
	So that's why she's rich, she's busy, she knows what she wants, she doesn't want to go deal with guys.
	Are the women ugly physically?
	I'm trying to figure out what would motivate a single woman to go hire a gigolo rather than just go to a bar.
	Any woman can pick up any guy, basically.
	If you wait long enough, it'll be.
	And that was part of it.
	She didn't want that hassle.
	You know, they didn't like the, and it was the control of the situation.
	Control, I could see.
	Control.
	The money gave them that power.
	Right.
	And I'm a very, I'm a pleaser in a sense.
	Like I said, I like to listen, and I've learned that.
	I've learned that.
	There's much value in listening.
	And because there was, you know, some of the clients, I was a regular for a few of the ladies, and then one of the other guys was also a regular for some of the ladies.
	And so I saw the games some of the other guys were playing with the women and attempts to, I don't want to go too deep, but attempts to lock these rich women down, either through marriage or pregnancy of some sorts.
	And so I saw this game being played by a few different women of clients who I had.
	And that was the day I called the owner.
	I was like, I can't stand by this.
	I can't stand by what is going on.
	So you're saying the men, the gigolos who are regulars, they say, okay, well, I got this woman who's rich, who's paying me for my services.
	But rather than just get a paycheck for every date, what if I impregnate this woman?
	In a deceitful way, meaning...
	Yeah.
	Because it was the same game plan from a few different women.
	And they would tell me, like one of the women who I saw quite often would tell me the game plan of what this one of the guys was doing behind the scenes.
	And then a few weeks later, or a few months later, see another client.
	And these women are wealthy women who are, their parents did very well.
	And so they had large sums of money.
	And they too themselves had businesses, which they developed.
	But this, yeah, there was a man doing, and that's why some of these women, you know, they would, one thing we were never supposed to exchange numbers because all business was supposed to be done through the agent.
	to ensure there's no backroom deals and such.
	So, but I did exchange numbers with these women who had some hard times in their life and they just need someone to talk to when they were at points in their life where they're on their deathbed in a sense.
	And so.
	So these women who were really desperate or depressed or something.
	Seeking, yeah, they're seeking something.
	Seeking, and so you gave them the number, you'd have kind of offline.
	I tried, I'm one, I don't like to operate in that manner, but when the women would tell me, hey, I just need someone to talk to, you know, or they would lead in that manner and I would always try to direct them to the.
	The agency.
	The agency.
	But, you know, there was a time where I did exchange the numbers and they would call me when they.
	They're still paying you, just off the books.
	Yeah, well, you know, they would, I wouldn't necessarily see them too, like they would call me to talk and stuff, but I did see a couple of times off the books and they would hand me some cash.
	Okay, so you've given me the scope of your career with the, as a gigolo.
	And you say it started out, I was okay morally with the women paying me for sex, but I was not okay with these guys who are, it's crazy to think.
	You hear about women, you know, pretending they're on a contraceptive drug and they're not and it's to lock a man down.
	You never think of it in the other way.
	The man is gonna try to impregnate the rich woman, you say okay that that part was too immoral and that's when i got out but there was this thing in the middle that you alluded to which pertains to the big news story you said there are these guys who would hire you to sleep with their wives or girlfriends and one of those guys is p.
	P. Diddy.
	Yep.
	And when that night came, uh, so, um, I did also, I worked private parties, bartended, served, uh, at studios and places all around Los Angeles and stuff.
	And so that night, one night was doing, uh, it was a pretty boring event, only wine and about 13 guests at a gentleman's house at the Hills.
	And I kind of got all the guests, their wines and stuff.
	And I'm sort of standing there and the reception's real in and out.
	And I see my phone kind of blinking and I'm like, Oh crap.
	So I look at it.
	So it's a Garen James missed call.
	And when, you know, when he calls, it's just one of those, like, okay, you know, this, this is the real deal.
	It's your boss.
	You got it.
	You got it.
	So I, uh, told the guy, Hey Andy, I got to go make a phone call real quick.
	And it's one of those seeds from back in the, um, the Verizon days, you know, I went to the side of the house and I'm like hitting call and like, and it's like, no bar failed.
	Yeah.
	So I'm on the side of the house and there's trash cans.
	I'm like, ah, go through.
	And I see him like, okay, it goes through and I'm holding it.
	And I'm like almost up on a trash can.
	It finally goes through to Garen James.
	And, uh, and then he's all like, Hey, you available?
	I was like, uh, I could be.
	And he's like, okay, uh, we've got A-listers.
	Are you available to be here this time?
	And I'm like, I will be.
	And so that's how that played out.
	I went in, and I told the guy, uh, I think his name was Andy.
	I was like, Hey Andy, I got a family emergency.
	I got a, I got a head out.
	Uh, then I'll leave all the wines out and stuff.
	He's like, all right, thank you very much.
	And it
	that was a real easy gig and so I so this is the most Hollywood story I've ever heard you're already at a party in the Hollywood Hills you get a call as a bartender you get a call to to do a like a sex job for a listers at another Hollywood party you give an excuse to the first guy and now you're driving over to P. Diddy's house LA Fitness First guy had to shower up didn't want to go stinky so I had to get clean had to go do a quick stop and I'm in my little Ford Focus you know yeah beeper bopper
	Works well there in LA because you can fit in all these parking spots.
	I think it was the Beverly Hills Hotel.
	Okay.
	Either there or her condo was the first one.
	But pull up and this is where, so I don't know who I'm seeing.
	And so I show up to the address.
	I go up to the door, knock, and she opens the door.
	This is Puff Daddy's girlfriend.
	This is Cassie.
	And I didn't know.
	I didn't put two and two together.
	And she opens the door.
	She was stunningly beautiful.
	Just had a presence.
	And she said, hi, come on in.
	All right.
	Hey.
	Starts telling me the situation.
	And I'm like walking behind her.
	And, you know, I know how to handle myself in a sense.
	I've been around beautiful people.
	But she had a presence.
	And I was like.
	So you're hired to do a job.
	But instantly you're enamored of this woman.
	It was weird.
	Like there's, yeah, you could feel her spirit.
	In Hawaii, you vibe off people.
	And I didn't think that was, I didn't really know that was a thing.
	Until I got older and stuff.
	And I realized, man, you can vibe off people.
	You can feel the energy and stuff.
	And so.
	Like she melted me.
	That was the energy at first.
	Just melted me.
	Her stunning beauty.
	And just the kindest person.
	You could imagine.
	Like just the sweetest.
	And so this thing.
	Like I'm almost fainting.
	I'm walking behind her.
	And I'm like.
	Oh, God.
	I feel my legs getting weak.
	And I just tap her shoulders.
	Like, excuse me.
	I just got laid.
	I'm sorry.
	If I'm stuttering.
	You're just drop dead gorgeous.
	I just had to get that out of the way.
	So that we can move forward.
	And I'm not just losing myself.
	She's like.
	Oh, you're so sweet.
	Thank you.
	And walks me into a room.
	Tells me the situation.
	She's like.
	Oh, my.
	And I didn't realize.
	They weren't husband and wife.
	But.
	Right.
	She tells me.
	Hey.
	So we're just going to have a little fun.
	You know.
	You're.
	Wait here for now.
	But I'll come get you in a little bit.
	My husband likes to watch.
	You know.
	And then.
	We'll just.
	We're going to be out there on the couch.
	Having fun.
	And we're just going to be playing.
	All right.
	So she.
	She.
	I mean.
	She.
	In many ways.
	Practically.
	They were together so long.
	It seems like they'd be husband and wife.
	So she refers to him as her husband.
	Yep.
	Even though that he was a long-term boyfriend.
	Yeah.
	And the long-term boyfriend just so happens to be.
	You don't know this at the time.
	No.
	I. I. I was on the assumption that this A-list.
	Or whoever he or she was.
	Hired the most beautiful escort.
	Yeah.
	And.
	I'm going to have fun with another escort.
	That was.
	I mean.
	She was that like stunning.
	In a sense.
	I don't mean to mean like escort looking.
	But she just was stunningly beautiful.
	And so yeah.
	I'm not putting this together.
	And then.
	I'm sitting in the room.
	And she even offered.
	She said.
	Oh.
	Here's a bar.
	Could I make you anything?
	And I'm like.
	Just.
	Hey.
	Thank you.
	Just go take care of yourself.
	I'm good.
	Thank you.
	then yes she comes back and the session starts about 15 minutes later so when you say the session starts you mean you guys you know do the thing that married couples do?
	Yeah.
	Very, this, you know, it was all, it's very performative, though.
	The whole system set up, you know, like the every flavor of Siroq is on the bar, you know, every bottle's placed in positions.
	Did that give it away?
	You said Sirok, hold on.
	Well, no, I didn't put two and two together then.
	You know, I took it.
	You know, think of it.
	I should have.
	That was the first clue.
	I don't think I would have put it if I found myself in that situation.
	But so you're there.
	So you say it's very performative.
	Because she sits on a couch and there's like a couch like this, maybe facing.
	She's like, okay, sit there.
	She puts a towel down.
	She's like, hey, just pour the baby oil all over me.
	And it would be heated, some heated, some just room temperature.
	Because I remember, I actually didn't follow the case that closely, the Diddy case.
	But one of the details that was in every headline was that investigators seized like a thousand bottles of baby oil.
	Yeah, I mean, there's lots of baby oil.
	It was always baby oil.
	Always.
	And never got old.
	I didn't see him until about the fourth or third or fourth encounter.
	I mean.
	But the first one, so we begin, she on the couch and directing, like, hey, play yourself, do this, lean this way, just like guiding.
	And I see like the little slit in the room.
	And I'm one to, I want to ensure I respect all those that I've seen.
	I don't want to disrespect any clients.
	I don't want to dispel any private information.
	The only reason I'm opening up about this is it's public now.
	So let me tell you something.
	Had you just sat down, we're meeting for the first time, and you told me this story.
	It's not that I would have immediately called you a liar, but I would have been very skeptical about your claims.
	You know, with this in the news, I'm sure there are going to be a lot of people who claim to have been gigolos at freak offs or in Diddy's house or whatever.
	There was some guy who claimed to be a lawyer working with the legal team, all these people making up a lot of stories.
	But I know that you actually did this stuff because you didn't volunteer this to go get publicity.
	Your name and your picture were revealed in court.
	Well, yes, well, revealed in court, and then it was sort of to go mainstream when 50 posted that picture.
	And I honestly thought because Yeah, 50 Cent.
	What did he post?
	He said something like, I wonder what he did to these guys or something along those lines.
	So it's like very assumptive.
	And especially with what's going on, you know, people can.
	So the rapper Fiddy Cent posts your picture along with a bunch of other guys, says, I wonder what P. Diddy did to you.
	And your name and your picture also come out in court, which is probably where Fiddy Cent got it.
	And all of this is quite corroborating of the fact that you're sitting in a hotel room at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
	Or what was it?
	It was at the Beverly Hills or at the condo.
	It was either at her condo or the Beverly Hills Hotel.
	And she is directing you in a sexual performance for P. Diddy, who's behind the curtain.
	Yeah, he was in the room, this little creak open.
	And you could tell it was she was in.
	I mean, I didn't notice it till a few sessions in, but she was under his control.
	So hold on.
	Because this is the part of the story that to me is really interesting from the legal perspective.
	The claim of the prosecution in the Diddy case was that he was coercing these women, chiefly her.
	But from the story you're describing, she welcomes you in.
	She tells you what to do.
	She's directing this.
	This sounds like a woman who, again, ultimately, because I have a Christian conception of liberty.
	Ultimately, I think this is not a free woman.
	This is a woman who's in the thrall to a lot of vice and sin.
	But in the modern legal conception of liberty, it sounds like this woman's totally free and she's telling you what to do.
	It doesn't sound like he's got a whip and a chain and he's...
	So I'm there to do a job.
	I want to ensure the clients get what they pay for.
	So, like, I wouldn't listen to their arguments and stuff if there was some noise.
	But they were having arguments.
	I would hear things.
	I didn't hear vicious tones and stuff.
	But I would hear noise.
	You could hear them discussing stuff and some pretty strong tones.
	But at that time, too, I'm not like, I didn't want to include myself into anyone's business.
	I was like, that's.
	You're hired to do a job.
	Exactly.
	And that's, you know, I didn't want to try to get a story or anything.
	I didn't want to have any desire.
	So I didn't want to try to listen to anything.
	What I was going to say that initially it was very, seemed very cordial, very light.
	But as the sessions grew, there were times her spirit, you could tell, were just, it was a completely different spirit.
	What do you mean by that?
	Where instead of the jovial smile of, hi, welcome in.
	What could I get you?
	Okay, all right, go here.
	We'll be out soon.
	I said, here.
	And there were times in the sessions where I saw that demon, the demon that she talked about.
	You know, yeah.
	What do you mean she a demon, like a kind of a personal demon?
	You know, these are the demons that are afflicting me.
	Or diddy?
	Yeah, diddy.
	Diddy.
	Diddy.
	You could see.
	You could see the fear.
	Well, and that's the thing.
	I made a statement to News Nation that I wanted to clear out.
	So there was a time in the later sessions where I'd say in between 15 to 25 with us.
	About 20, probably.
	So pun intended, you are very intimately acquainted with Diddy and his girlfriend.
	Fairly, yeah.
	And he was always like, honestly, talking to him, I'm a people person.
	I talk, I'll laugh.
	You can laugh at me.
	I love it.
	You know, I feel no harm in that.
	But trying to talk to him was like talking to a soulless wall.
	It just was all about.
	Yeah, here.
	All about the sex.
	Yeah, like just like there was one time that's how the conversations were.
	Like him and I were, we were on a bed, separated, but you know, laying near the top and she was at the bass performing.
	He's like, hey, man, why more men doing this?
	Why more guys doing this stuff?
	And I come to realize, like, he knew the agency and he knows more men are doing this.
	And I just responded, tried to respond pretty quickly.
	And I was like, oh, men want to own, so men will want your woman.
	and it creates jealousy and stuff.
	Does he mean, why aren't more men doing what I'm doing?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, like giggolow and being a more men doing what you're doing.
	Yes.
	Why aren't more men?
	Because it seems, you know, for like a teenage boy maybe, it seems like, well, I get paid more dudes doing this.
	And your answer is, because men want ownership.
	They want a woman of their own.
	They don't want to.
	That was my quick response.
	And, you know, I was just trying to give him an answer.
	I didn't want to leave him hanging and stuff.
	But that's how it was.
	There was never any more than that.
	So in a sense, too, I've only bought one CD in my life.
	And it was, I'll be missing you by Diddy.
	You know, she, you know, that song he wrote for his, who I thought was his brother.
	It took me many times.
	It took me, I thought about it.
	I was like, because I just wanted to, you know, I didn't want to connect, connect.
	I'm there for a job.
	But I'm like, I want to.
	Want to know this guy?
	Yeah, I just want to have a cordial conversation.
	I just want to break the ice and just talk to you.
	You know, I mean, you're, I'm over here sleeping with your lady, and I just want to know you as a man.
	And so I told him one day I was finally just like, I was going to just say it like, hey, man, I've only bought one CD in my life.
	It was the piece you put together for your brother, Lil Smalls, man.
	I'll be missing you.
	And I thought that would be like, oh, he could talk about his brother.
	And I could talk about my brother.
	We could start to relate that way.
	His response was, that's what's up.
	I'm just like, cool, man.
	All right.
	Right back to work.
	So this guy, from the picture you're painting and the courts have painted and from like video footage, I guess, is a sex crazed animal.
	Is that overstating it?
	That's, I could, I mean, I would say that's fair.
	That's definitely fair.
	From my own personal experience, this is like, yeah, it's like he had a sin.
	And it was the power, too.
	You know, I could tell it was the power that turned him on as well.
	It was the it wasn't just the naked bodies touching and stuff.
	It was the power.
	This is going to, this maybe is a dumb question.
	There are going to be a lot of people asking, and this is my confusion too.
	If you're a guy and you have a pretty girlfriend, you should get married, I guess, and have kids and have a big family and a good life.
	But even short of that, it seems to me you'd want to just sleep with your girlfriend a lot because she's really hot.
	How, why would you want to...
	Why would you want some other guy to sleep with your girlfriend?
	And why would you pay for it?
	That, you know, I don't know the exact answer to that one because I'm like you.
	I want my wife.
	You're the guy in this situation and you don't know the answer.
	I have no idea.
	I don't understand why that's...
	It's one of the devil's greatest tools that you think you're satisfied, but you want more.
	You just want more.
	Like this was fun, but you could have more.
	And if you don't have something to steer you in line to be like, no, that's a sin.
	You don't need that.
	Your flesh will indulge.
	So basically, you're the rich rapper.
	You have a hot girlfriend.
	You've done that thing 10 billion times.
	And now, because it's not ordered towards something, you just need more titillation.
	And that's what I think it is, yeah.
	And that's my assumption as to, you know, like you hear the audio of what may have happened behind closed doors with Diddy and some rappers, you know, and then some of them aren't as famous as they were before those moments that they had with Diddy.
	And I think it's my assumption.
	It's a power thing.
	Right, because hold on.
	The thing you're alluding to, which I think is public, we're not exactly revealing private sins here.
	Diddy's like half a gay guy.
	It seems like.
	He's doing weird stuff with guys and making guys do weird stuff with guys.
	Did I want to make it very clear?
	He never touched me.
	Him and I never had any physical interactions.
	That's good.
	I just want to make that clear.
	But that does add a wrinkle to this where you say, well, hold on.
	If he's half a gay guy, why does he even have a girlfriend?
	Because he's just a perver, basically, is it, right?
	And many other men that I've talked to, like Cassie is one of the most beautiful women.
	She's a very gorgeous, beautiful woman.
	And I think Diddy, you know, he had that and he wants to be above everyone else.
	So that was kind of his satisfaction.
	It's like, her beauty is great, but I own it.
	And you want it, but I own it.
	So this is one.
	So there was a few times where I got to see that side of the Diddy where it was all about power.
	And her and I can have no interaction without him there.
	If he, because there was a moment we're doing, you know, we're naked and on a couch and Diddy kind of gets up and walks and she just kind of pauses and then just sits like this and I kind of lean back on the couch and then I just kind of, hey, I forget what the topic I tried to bring up.
	I'm like, hey, what happened yesterday or blah, blah, blah.
	Just something off the top.
	Watch those Yankees.
	Yeah, just something just to break the ice, in a sense.
	And she just looks at, she just goes, not till he comes back.
	Just, nope, wait till he comes back.
	And just like straight.
	And so that's when I made a statement on News Nation.
	It wasn't fear I was sensing, but it was this is this woman knows next level what she has to do to get through this situation.
	Like she knows if I even possibly talk with him, he's going to, what'd you say to him?
	What are you talking about?
	Because there's video of him beating her in a hallway.
	I was supposed to be there that night.
	I was supposed to.
	Yeah.
	I got to figure that out, found that out from a reporter who found out all the chat logs and stuff.
	But yeah, I was supposed to be there that night.
	Yeah, it would have been, I don't know what would have happened.
	But that's how I like to see.
	It's like, I'm the guy, I don't, I like to, I don't never start a fight, but I would like to bring it down.
	I would like to try to tone it down.
	You know, I don't, I like to try to bring peace and civility.
	So you were supposed to be there the night Diddy's filmed Beating His Girlfriend, and you're wondering, rather than say, man, I'm so glad I wasn't there that night, you're thinking, man, had I been there, maybe that wouldn't have happened.
	I like to think there's a chance that I could have hopefully brought the spirit down.
	I don't know.
	Maybe I'm talking a little too tall here, but it's like, that's kind of been my, I guess, my thing is I have a vibe, I guess, you know, and I don't mind getting punched in the head.
	If it could bring some peace in Seville, I will fight back and try to defend myself.
	But at the same time, I would try to bear hug him if I saw him beating her up.
	I don't know what would have happened.
	But I would have tried to quell the situation.
	If not, you know, yeah, I probably would have had to talk with the guy and be like, man, this Garen and be like, nah, I don't stand for this.
	Because I absolutely would not stand for that action.
	So not stand for a man putting his hands on a woman.
	Of course.
	I hope not.
	Take me back to this moment on the couch.
	P. Diddy leaves the room.
	You guys were doing whatever you were doing.
	He leaves the room, stops.
	She turns away.
	You try to talk to her.
	She says, we're not even supposed to talk.
	She just goes into her own head.
	At this moment, before that, I could see how you could tell yourself, well, hey, it's all just fun.
	This is what they want to do.
	And I'm just part of what they want to do.
	And I'm just here to serve the client, keep the customer satisfied.
	At this moment, does it dawn on you, hey, maybe, maybe she doesn't want to be doing this?
	Maybe not in those exact terms, but I was like, it was like, whoa, follow her lead.
	You know, like, oh, shit, this is okay.
	She's telling me something.
	When they asked Unus Nation, did you sense fear?
	And I said, I didn't sense fear, but it was because I was in the presence of a survivor.
	Not just a survivor, but my mom helped me correlate these thoughts of a, not a victim, but she's a survivor.
	That's what she was.
	She was not a victim there, but she was a survivor.
	And she knew that to get through this situation and possibly not get a beat down, she couldn't talk without.
	So why didn't she leave?
	Why did she tried to leave that night in the hotel?
	And then he drags her.
	She was at the, on video, she was at the elevator, and he catches her right before the elevator and drags her back and kicks her and hits her and beats her.
	He's just a complete animal, a savage.
	But in that moment, he leaves.
	She could have run away.
	No, maybe not.
	Maybe she's got some psychological damage.
	The arms of, this is where too, I'm a simple man.
	I'm a, like I said, I'm a Hawaii boy.
	Things are very, I look at things very simply.
	I know things are very complicated, but when you break things down simply, you can, it helps me to understand them.
	Why didn't she leave?
	The arms of whatever system Diddy has are much bigger than any we can perceive that we know of.
	And I say this because Diddy wants that, and this is after a great session.
	So there's a few moments where I realized like I understood my place in a sense.
	So one time Diddy, he, I get, so every time I go, I have to turn off the phone, hand it to him first thing, hand him the phone.
	They take the phone every session.
	The end of the night comes, hands the phone in the cash, and he's like, he comes up to me.
	And this was like, it was nothing.
	This was like very, he seemed like very cordial.
	No, everything went smooth.
	And he's handing me my phone and stuff.
	He's like, hey, man, you know, I know everyone's grandma and shit, right?
	And where they live?
	And I'm just like, yeah, we're good.
	And he's like, all right.
	All right.
	So that's what I thought.
	I just had to look at it.
	I didn't want to be like...
	I know where everyone's grandma.
	He said, you know, I know where everybody and their grandma lives, right?
	And then I just had to, you know, I had to think.
	I had to pause.
	I didn't want to be like, I know people too.
	I know where your grandma lives.
	Did he?
	I know where you live.
	I didn't want to play none of that game.
	So I just had to like, I absorbed it and I realized, oh, I know what he's saying.
	He's threatening you.
	In a sense.
	Yeah, saying it without saying it.
	And he's like, all right.
	And I said look, I'm like, yeah, we're good.
	We're good, man.
	Has me my phone.
	So I was just like, I didn't.
	So he knows that what he's doing is bad.
	He knows that it's degenerate, would be damaging to his reputation, even his reputation.
	Well, and I got another story to back that up.
	So one time, I, I mean, at that time, especially, I was fascinated by Cassie, and so I would bring her gifts.
	I had a duffel bag.
	I had a duffel bag with gifts and outfits or whatever, you know, to go too deep into it, but.
	Gifts, like, just for her or for the performance?
	Just for her.
	Just for her.
	How much are they paying you?
	Those are my highest paying clients.
	They paid well.
	I can imagine.
	They paid pretty well.
	I'm not a wise spender, so I would take a portion of what they paid me and I would go buy her gifts.
	It's very nice, very generous.
	But I have this, I had a bag, I had a duffel bag with some outfits and a couple gifts and stuff.
	I had my watch.
	So I put my bag down on a counter.
	Like the setting was something like this, but it was more of like a counter against the wall with some drawers and stuff.
	I put my bag on the side and I had a G-Shock and I put it on the table.
	We go through the whole night, the whole session, and get everything done, put my watch up, go to the door, and we're wrapping up.
	And he saw, yeah, yeah, that watch, that one of those, and this is what, like five, six, you know, seven or eight years ago?
	Yeah.
	Something more.
	He's like, yeah, hey, that watch dead.
	I went in with them cameras in it.
	And I was like, and then I was like, my mind spans.
	I was like, oh yeah, I was on the counter.
	I was like, oh, snap.
	It must have been facing out.
	And I'm guessing he saw that.
	So I'm like, this?
	I thought it was a G-shock.
	I was like, oh, no, dude.
	You know what?
	No, it doesn't here.
	You guys take it.
	He's like, oh, no, we're good, we're good.
	And I'm like, we're good, man.
	I was like, you know what?
	Guilty man flees when none pursueth.
	So you left the watch.
	I dunked it.
	I was like, you know what, man?
	I don't want to, I was like, I don't want to have any suspicions.
	I was like, yeah, you know what?
	So I was like, nah, man, like right here.
	And I was like, nope, I just dropped it in the trash.
	And I was just like, it's not worth it.
	This is a 50-buck watch.
	G-Shock's a nice watch.
	I love him.
	Yeah.
	But he obviously was paranoid, as he should be.
	That line of, it's a great line of scripture.
	The guilty flee when none pursueth.
	If you're doing bad stuff, first of all, everyone knows someone's watching.
	Someone up there's watching.
	And so all of a sudden you think, does someone, does that guy, does my coworker know, does my wife know the thing that I just did?
	Yeah.
	I don't think you threaten, I'm going to go kill your grandma if it's just, you know, people might write mean things about me online.
	And I'm assuming he thought I would turn around and write a book or something, you know, to expose.
	But I'm not that guy.
	Like even like I, like when this all happened, my phone starts blowing up, you know, going into the trial.
	And, you know, I didn't know how to take it.
	It just was a storm.
	But I just, I get, that's the only reason I did give a few interviews.
	I just wanted my side to be heard.
	A lot of my buddies back home are like, oh, what did Diddy do to him, man?
	What the heck?
	People's minds wander.
	He didn't do anything to me.
	He didn't do anything to me.
	He paid me to sleep with his girlfriend.
	And, you know, but, you know, people's minds will wander and they have the right to.
	We all assume things.
	So Diddy beats the racketeering charges, which are the really serious charge.
	Like he's running a major criminal enterprise.
	Do you think in your fairly extensive experience, in his criminal enterprise, alleged criminal enterprise, should he have been found guilty?
	If you were on the jury, would you have voted to find him guilty?
	I would have to see the evidence.
	You saw some of it up close.
	Yeah.
	With what I've experienced, yeah, absolutely.
	There's arms to what he did.
	You know, this operation doesn't happen.
	It has to have an orchestrator.
	The symphony doesn't.
	It would sound like a bunch of banging rackets and it would have been a mess.
	But these are operations.
	So in a sense, like, you know, I did many events.
	And so as I go into the situation, I see the bottles and everything.
	I was like, wow, this is a production.
	You know, that's like one of my first thoughts.
	Like, this is a production.
	I'm like, after two, I realize it's Diddy.
	I'm like, yeah, I don't see Diddy up here putting these bottles.
	And, you know, I don't necessarily think that's a crime setting up a situation, but everyone knows what's going on.
	So in a sense, too, that's what I've come to realize is a way that the rich and powerful get away with things, a term called plausible deniability.
	So he was always one step removed, and so he's got this...
	When he threatened you, were you afraid?
	No.
	Like, I mean, it's just like, I see myself as like, I'm like, dude, I'm a nobody.
	Come on, man.
	But you're a nobody.
	You're going to waste so much time.
	But you got dirt on him.
	You might be kind of a nobody, meaning you're not rich and famous, but you have knowledge about bad things he's doing, which means you have leverage, which means you have power.
	First and foremost, I serve God.
	So it's like, if you're going to send me to my Maker quicker, go for it, buddy.
	Like, come on.
	Send me to a better place quicker.
	Come on.
	And if God doesn't want it, have fun, buddy.
	It'll be fun for you.
	But I guess that's a good attitude to have generally.
	We don't want to have servile fear.
	We want holy fear.
	But now, Diddy could have faced life in prison.
	He could have died in prison.
	Given the outcome of the trial, he'll face four or five years.
	He hasn't been sentenced yet, as of our conversation.
	If you were afraid then, before you had spilled anything publicly, before any of this had come to light, are you not at least a little bit afraid of reprisal now?
	This guy's got tentacles, arms.
	Are you not at all afraid of reprisal?
	No, I don't.
	No.
	Do you think he might try to have a reprisal?
	If he sees something like, I mean, if...
	I mean, I'm a small twig in this big old tree, but if he wants to waste energy on me, have fun.
	I'll play the game.
	I mean, I'm not welcoming it.
	I'm not trying to call him out or anything, but I respect how they respected me, and I don't respect his conduct.
	But it is what it is.
	I move forward.
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	Did you have as you're sitting on the couch or afterward and you realize, okay, this woman, she's a survivor.
	You say she's not afraid, but she's not a victim, but she's a survivor, which means she's surviving some bad experience, which means if she's sensible at all, she's got some fear of more bad experiences and she's been victimized at some point such that she could survive.
	Did you ever have any moral qualms to say, man, she doesn't like this and I'm being used to inflict this on her?
	I struggled to, I didn't see it like that in perspective.
	I didn't see, like, I guess just my passion to serve.
	I just was blinded by the situation.
	I'm here to serve.
	I'm going to do my duty.
	Serve the client.
	In this case, the clients did.
	It did take me, you know, I guess I wouldn't say a few years, but it took me to, you know, to step out of that situation in a sense, like, I guess call it breaking out of the matrix for me to see it for what it was.
	So there's other situations, too, where, like, my mindset, I couldn't see it for the evil it was, especially being, obviously, I don't want to think I'm that evil.
	Yes.
	Is that why?
	Because that, look, we've all done it.
	Whenever I've been terrible.
	Well, we're all sinners, but I've been worse than at other times in my life.
	And in the moment, you don't see it as clearly as you do in retrospect.
	Because why?
	Because you don't.
	You say, well, I can't be the bad guy.
	And for me, it was, I like to please.
	I like to serve.
	If I'm not doing it, like some other wicked douchebag might come in and service these ladies, but it's not in the same spiritual context.
	Like, you know, I give my, I wouldn't say I give my soul, but I do give my heart to those times.
	I listen fully, you know, and so my thought was, well, if I'm not going to see them, some other guys will.
	And they're not going to give them, you know, the desire.
	I'm going to give it my all.
	If you're going to engage in an exploitative act or if you're going to be subjected to an exploitative act, better it be with me than with some bad guy.
	Yeah.
	That was somewhat the, I guess, how I made it okay in my own mind, you know.
	And I guess the attention too kind of made me blind to it.
	The fact that, you know, the fact that people would pay for my image, I'm like, this world's crazy.
	You know, when I started modeling, then the women would pay me for my time.
	I'm like, these ladies are even crazier, but I must be doing something right.
	And if I can, you know, obviously I'm going to pay for it, but if I can serve someone, put a smile on someone's face, I'll do it.
	And even though now that I respect how degrading it is, my conversation with those women that maybe want to spend time with me, the conversation would be different.
	You know, I would try to lead it in different directions, and I would not sleep with them.
	Right.
	I'm not that guy anymore.
	But I do want to have heart to hearts.
	Right, right.
	Because that seems to be the thread.
	The through line of all of this is you want to please people.
	And even, you know, as you say, these women want this service.
	And you say, well, I want to give it to them, even if it's not good for them.
	There's one time I remember I was out with a buddy.
	We were at a cigar bar late at night, you know, having a smoke, having some drinks.
	We go out and a bum on the street comes up and he says, hey, can you give me money?
	And I said, what do you want the money for?
	Food?
	Food.
	I said, you don't want, you're not going to, you are not.
	Don't lie to me.
	You're not going to use this money to get food.
	And he was like, no, you're right.
	I'm going to use this money to get a drink.
	And I said, okay, well, I can't give it to you.
	And he says, why not?
	You've been drinking.
	I was like, I have been drinking.
	But drinking's not that bad for me.
	I don't need to drink.
	It doesn't make my life worse.
	But drinking would be bad for you because it would make your life worse.
	And I don't want to participate in making your life worse.
	And that was how we left it.
	He was cool.
	He was fine with it.
	So when you say, well, if I were going on these dates now, the conversations would be different.
	Is that the distinction?
	Yeah, it would be much more depth of what are you seeking?
	You want temporary pleasure.
	Yeah.
	Because that's one thing.
	It took me, I'm one, I doubt things until I see it or live it, you know?
	And so, you know, this is another instance while in a situation like that, you know, living in Sodom and Gomorrah, basically, in LA, where it's just pure sin.
	Yeah.
	But there was a moment, this is where it was just kind of affirmation of the Holy Spirit.
	Again, on a couch doing her thing, and Diddy kind of walked around in the kitchen, so he was present this time.
	And she kind of sits back, kind of sits back, and she's like, I don't know, it's just something about you.
	There's like an energy or spirit just about you.
	I don't know.
	It's different, but I like it.
	It's pretty awesome.
	And I just was like, what?
	I was like, what would make her say that?
	Like, you know what?
	How, what would make her feel like something about me?
	And I come to realize it was probably my mom on her hands and knees praying for me at that moment in time.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, hold on.
	So this is another, you become a model and then a gigolo and then a gigolo for puff daddy.
	Does your family know about this?
	Oh, I didn't tell anyone.
	No way.
	No, it's not one.
	I didn't bash, like, no one I worked with knew.
	I don't think, I think I had kind of made a side reference.
	I never talked straight up because I respect my clients and I don't.
	Because you pointed off camera because you met my producer, Ben Davies, doing catering jobs back in the day.
	But you weren't telling people that you were doing this.
	I never dated girls at my work and I didn't talk about this.
	No, this was, yeah, I didn't find necessarily, I wasn't proud of it necessarily, but I appreciated serving women and making decent money.
	I was able to live, survive there in LA.
	I wasn't a wise investor, which I should have been, but I was able to just get by decently.
	And you didn't expect to be brought up by prosecutors in a major criminal case years later.
	Yeah, and that's the thing, too.
	I just got blasted.
	It was on a Monday, just get blasted by every outlet, CNN, NBC, and they're all, I realized, because the people article had come out.
	There's a guy, actually a decent.
	This guy, I don't like media personnel.
	I do not like the media because in my job, I realized, too, like I was that fly on the wall.
	I'd be serving behind places and then you hear people talk about like people in the media.
	It's like, it doesn't matter what the hell the truth is.
	It just matters what make the peasants believe.
	You just got to make your truth their truth.
	I hear these things like, huh?
	You know, I'm sorry, my brain, I forget where I was going with.
	Keep going with that.
	Because you're working, as you say, you're only working the gigolo jobs a handful of days per month.
	That's not, you have other days, you're working other jobs, you're catering.
	So you're getting a really direct view of Gamora by the sea when you're cucking Puff Daddy.
	But you're getting another view of Gamora by the Sea when you're overhearing these hotshot A-listers at the parties.
	Executives talking.
	So what are they saying?
	Stuff about how, oh, we'll have, oh, well, we're going to have this in the film.
	And people would talk about how they would set up social constructs or social narratives.
	They would talk about...
	And then, well, they know this person at the Department of Education, and then they know this person over here to be able to work this out.
	So if there's ever any legal recourse, I know the prosecutor, so let's go.
	Talking about in stealing messages in their media and stuff, like subliminal type messages and things like that.
	And this is the thing, too.
	At the time, I'm a fly on the wall.
	And I'm like, I'm hearing this, but I'm thinking, no, people aren't that stupid.
	And this is at the time where algorithms are going up and people are doing everything algorithm-based.
	And even as I'm hearing them say this behind closed doors, my soul is thinking, oh, people aren't that stupid.
	People can think for themselves.
	And then you see things like the Tide Pod Challenge come out on Snapchat and things like this, where, you know.
	That was when Zoomers were eating Tide Pods, right?
	And it's, you know, you hear, and there was a party that I had worked on.
	It was on the Hermosa Beach Pier, and it was somewhere in the early days.
	I think I'd been around a few years now, one or two.
	And so it was sort of a pretty awesome party there on the pier.
	And you hear guys talking about like, ah, yeah, well, that stupid bitch in high school, I just got to tweak an algorithm and she's sending me nudes and stuff.
	It's just like, you hear how they can just, you know, create the realities for, and like these people who are running these platforms and stuff, all they got to do is put in a few algorithms.
	Yeah.
	I could just go, eh, kill that algorithm, but they're like, this is funny.
	How many people?
	How many will we get?
	Well, and there's a parallel too, because you're saying the part that's so confusing for people is why, if you're a rich, powerful guy, would you pay some dude to sleep with your girlfriend?
	And you say, what's about the control?
	And here you're talking about the control from the level of the media executives down to just random degenerates in Hollywood.
	And so, look, this is the, as far as I'm concerned, primordial sin, this desire to be in control of everything, to make yourself into God.
	You know, ye shall be as gods, is the promise from the serpent in the garden.
	It's the premise of the liberal ideology, which is no men, no gods, no kings, only men, and we're going to make ourselves gods.
	We're going to remake the world as we like.
	So, okay, all of this is tracking my philosophical priors.
	But what about your moral reality?
	You're in this, you're working your catering jobs, then however many times per month, you're going over, doing the gigolo gigs, cuckolding Puff Daddy, having this nice, apparently nice relationship with Cassie, his girlfriend.
	How do you get out of it?
	How do you get out of the Puff Daddy freak off scene?
	And how do you get out of gigoloing?
	When I realized that, you know, that thought of, I want to provide people, I want to provide them.
	I want to give them the best experience.
	I want to provide them with a good time.
	I realized how detrimental it really was for...
	And contributing to it.
	Huh?
	And contributing to it, by participating.
	Exactly.
	Yeah.
	So there was one client I had.
	He was the dean of medicine.
	The only reason I'm going to say this now because he was arrested in like 2018.
	Okay.
	That's a sick individual, by the way.
	And so he was a client of mine.
	Sorry, don't mean to laugh.
	You're talking about a guy at a prestigious school in a very serious position in medicine.
	Engaging in a threat to public health.
	And this is how it gets so dissociative.
	He had a young girl, about 21, 22.
	And this is where...
	Like 68 at the time.
	And this is how I got to see the true dark side and how my own mindset, how clouded my own judgment was.
	So there's a box, you know, about yay big off to the side.
	He opens it up and it's got about six, seven, eight different hardcore drugs in it.
	And so they get a pipe, put some, I guess, meth in it, and just light it up right there and start smoking it.
	And in my own mind, I'm thinking, well, that's a dean of medicine.
	He must know what drugs are safe.
	He must know how to pass the drug tests.
	I guess they drug test deans that you.
	And then I'm like, that's, no.
	That's how twisted this all is.
	And what really disgusted me is how, you know, you would see articles written in media outlets where I would have, you know, I would have a session with the dean of medicine and he's a disgusting.
	Degenerate.
	And then you would hear the source of the information, the source for the information in that article was the dean of medicine.
	So I'm just like, like, that's where I'm like, like, that's sick that they're, I forget what the topic was.
	It was a long time.
	It was a while back, but there was things of concern.
	And the LA Times would be like, you know, headline, do this.
	Source, the dean of medicine.
	Like, I was smoking last night.
	Yeah.
	Well, I didn't indulge.
	I at least saw him smoking math.
	Yes.
	And this is also what, you know, what I saw with some of the men that were cockles and would have me come in to please their lady is he would show me pictures and videos of about four or five black dudes doing things to her.
	And I just like just would just, I did want to punch him in the face, but I was just utterly disgusted.
	Yeah.
	That's how degrading.
	Yeah.
	He's a sick, sick man.
	At the same time, she went to like use the bathroom.
	He was like, oh yeah, look, look what we were doing last week.
	And he's just showing me the videos of like four dudes going to work on it.
	And there was a moment where he walked out and he wasn't as controlling as Diddy, but he walked out and she's sitting next to me.
	And my soul, I was just like, my soul felt it.
	It was one of those, I was just like, wow.
	And so I didn't know what to ask, but I just looked at her.
	I was like, hey, are you okay with all this?
	You okay with all this?
	And she was like, well, my mom's a drug addict.
	I'm a drug addict.
	So I get to do this and have fun.
	Yeah, I'm for it.
	And I was just like, oh.
	He put the hooks in, you know, and he's going to keep.
	Because there you have an admission that it's not even just that you get a girl who's psychologically messed up, but you get a girl who's a drug addict.
	He's exploiting a girl who's a drug addict to feed his own degenerate sexual vices.
	That is sick stuff, man.
	Because we were talking earlier about different conceptions of freedom.
	That girl is not free.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	She's like, lack of a better, she's a complete slave to the drug, well, him and the drugs, and she's an absolute slave in that situation.
	Because she doesn't get her drugs.
	She turns into, who knows what she turns into.
	Well, he's got them.
	So do what I say.
	So what the minute you say these DeGens who are, some of whom have, well, Puff Daddy, super rich, super famous, very powerful.
	But then this other guy, it's almost worse because he's got this really white collar, mainstream, supposedly respectable job.
	Not that I respect university administrators all that much.
	You know, I'm a little skeptical of them generally, but should be a very respectable job.
	And they're engaging in this gross, gross stuff.
	Are they porn addicts?
	Are they what led them to?
	My assumption is they're godless.
	And so they like.
	Yeah, they are.
	I'm sorry to cut you off and I want to hear your point on this.
	I just mean at a very direct level.
	How would you even get the idea to invite four dudes over to abuse your girlfriend?
	Is it mimetic?
	Did he see it?
	Is he a porn addict?
	I don't know.
	I'm not a curious person.
	I'm assuming porn was the gateway, the ultimate gateway.
	I don't know exactly, but it's one of those.
	It's a degeneracy.
	I don't know.
	I can't comprehend.
	It's just something I can't fathom that level of degeneracy.
	So you make the very good point with that, obviously godlessness.
	And yeah, because I love people.
	I could never do something so degrading to another individual.
	And why?
	Because God says, do unto others as you would have done unto you.
	And I can see like these guys, they don't get this type of, no one dictates what they do in this sort of way.
	So in a sense, like you said earlier, they're their own God.
	And so this is how they, the only way they've, you know, that's a slippery slope that never ends if you serve Satan.
	Yeah, that slippery slope only goes straight down.
	It's going to go deeper and get a lot hotter.
	In fact, John Milton in Paradise Lost says, in the mouth of Satan, he says the mind is its own place.
	It can make a hell of heaven and heaven.
	Hell better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven, which is why I say this is the idea.
	This is at the heart of the ideology of liberalism, but really it goes back to the original sin.
	So you see these guys.
	In your mind, you're saying, I'm a Christian.
	I believe in God.
	I'm spiritual.
	I'm feeling vibes of souls and stuff.
	But you're looking around.
	You're saying, well, hold on.
	The people I'm literally serving in this moment are godless.
	Yeah.
	And I'm serving them.
	Yeah.
	What did they say about me?
	Yeah, it was hard for me.
	I didn't recognize it as that.
	See, my dream too as a kid was my mom would always tell me, you better marry a Christian girl.
	You better marry a Christian girl.
	And I see why now.
	We're in a spiritual battle here in this world.
	But my goal is, I love you, mom, but I want to bring them to Christ.
	I want that challenge.
	I want to bring them to Christ.
	And so I know that sounds very dark and twisted, but like if I hope to be that pathway one day for anyone, if it's one person.
	But what if you met, you're not married.
	No, sir.
	What if you met a nice Christian girl and you hit it off?
	Would you say, well, no, I don't want to marry you because I want the challenge of converting a sinner.
	No, I realize my flesh can mislead me.
	In this battle, I want a partner.
	I don't want to.
	I'm going to have the point where I want that boost, not the lift up.
	I don't want to be trying to drag someone into Christ's path.
	I want that boost.
	I want to work as a partnership in the spiritual war because that's what it is.
	Probably a sign of maturity.
	But I feel like we've skipped something.
	You realize this is bad.
	You realize you've made a mistake.
	You realize you've got to get out of this.
	Tell me about the last session with Diddy.
	Tell me about the last session, period.
	Tell me, nuts and bolts, how you get out of it.
	I can't exactly recall the last session with Diddy because his was funny.
	He actually called me because I had come home about eight years ago, went home to Hawaii and working on my family project.
	We've got a family project out there.
	And it was about three or four months I'd been home and Diddy calls me.
	He calls me and it's like four in the morning out there.
	And he calls me.
	He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You around?
	And I was like, and this is where it goes into, I was attempting, I was trying to talk to him and be like, hey, man, you should probably come out to Hawaii sometime.
	You know, I got this place where there will be no paparazzi or anything.
	And he's like, click.
	And I'm like, oh, yeah.
	He's trying to get down to business.
	I wasn't going to talk about doing any future services or nothing, but I wanted to possibly get him out to our property and like talk Christ with him.
	I know that won't work, but that was my goal.
	My work.
	You're in Hawaii.
	You get effectively a booty call from Puff Daddy.
	You say, no, I'm not really doing that.
	But anyway, you want to come hang out and eat some pineapple.
	And before he hangs out.
	Yeah.
	I'm like, oh, yeah.
	He wants to get the business.
	So, yeah.
	But we never met.
	It's probably about four or five, five years ago.
	Yeah.
	Five or six.
	So, okay.
	So you just, you can't recall the last time you worked for P. Diddy.
	It was, you know, the sessions were, it was like moments like that when he would tell me, hey, my grandma, you know, I know people or, you know, that watch.
	It was moments like that that stuck, but it had become a process in a sense.
	So I don't remember like the last one because I'm not like a numbers guy.
	I have no idea.
	Did you quit or did you quit?
	Because I had realized that this business operation was much darker than I thought.
	And I had a conversation with Garen about, and I don't want to go too deep into it, but one of the actions of one of the other gigolos was very dirty, dark.
	Like he was trying to plant his seeds into rich women.
	And I could see the game plan of what he was trying to do in a sense, of impregnate these women, then divorce them, and just to screw them.
	And so I saw this.
	And to get money?
	To get money?
	Yeah, yeah.
	To get money for himself.
	And this guy was a demon.
	This guy was a disgusting dude, a pathetic prick.
	And what he would do is he would abuse these women mentally.
	And he would, the ladies told me the psychological abuse he used on them and the psychological games he played to have his plan come together.
	They're the ones hiring him.
	So how does he, how can they claim to be abused by him?
	They're the ones in charge.
	That's, what is it, Stockholm Syndrome?
	In a sense, like, that's all I can contribute it to.
	But it's where, you know, they had a connection with him.
	But then, you know, I guess with time, his true intentions would come through.
	And then so it would get dark.
	And then, you know, they he would, he would, the ladies would tell me that he would tell them, hey, you have to see me.
	Like, I'm coming.
	Like, you know, you better be ready because I'm coming.
	And so they'd be like, all right, you know, like, okay.
	I guess it was a sense of submission, you know, and they just.
	The sense of submission, like, like they were into it?
	Sort of, I guess, in a say, in a way, too.
	Like, even this guy was twisted and distorted.
	And I'm kind of just the very, I'm the opposite.
	Like, I love to serve.
	I'll do anything for you.
	You want me to go get this?
	I'll do that.
	Well, he was the, like, I own you and you're going to do this for me.
	I'm assuming.
	You know, those stories he told.
	So this actually, okay, this starts to make sense.
	And it helps to make sense of the Cassie P. Diddy situation too, which is you could say, in this situation, the woman could say, I want a man to be really mean to me.
	That's what I'm paying for.
	I want that.
	I do see how that was.
	And it's one of those things, getting into it.
	I never thought that a woman would want that.
	I thought women want to be treated like queens, princesses, but there is a side that, like, women, some women do like to be choked.
	Some women do like to get to know the man's in control.
	But this is what St. Paul talks about.
	When St. Paul says, the things I want to do, I don't do, and the things that I don't want to do, I do.
	That, to a modern liberal person, doesn't make any sense because you do the things you want to do, and you don't do the things that you don't want to do.
	But that's not how human nature works.
	There are parts of us that are concupiscent that just want to sin, that want some guy to beat them up or want some, you know, some, for the guys, to want to do some gross thing with a woman.
	And the lower part of you can want that, whereas the higher part of you can know, I don't really want that.
	So how do you reconcile those things?
	And so I guess that was kind of what pushed me out the door is when I realized that this was much darker and wasn't as friendly to the women as I thought.
	And the relationship that the owner of the company and these ladies had when I had informed him of some of the actions of one of his men and how un of this company I thought it was and just outright unchivalrous he was.
	Yeah, and just there were things that this could destroy the company because what he's doing, if these women hire a good lawyer and play this out, this all could come back around.
	So I was trying to inform him, like, hey, you got to get rid of this guy because here's what's going on.
	His response was, it's business.
	This isn't your business.
	This is none of your business.
	And this is business.
	And then he was like, did you guys exchange numbers?
	And I was like, dude, yeah, we did.
	Because there were times she was on her, you know, she wasn't doing so well.
	And she reached out to me and I had a conversation with her.
	And I was like, I will give you back any money you want.
	I'll pay you whatever you want because she did, you know, we did communicate.
	He was like, no, no, we're good.
	We're done.
	I was like, all right, I'm done.
	I ain't going to play this game.
	Once I realized that it was, that's when I realized like it was for the company.
	It was just, it's a business, it's money.
	So whatever we've got to do to show up, show up more.
	Even if you've got to degrade these women, put them down, it doesn't matter, more business.
	I wasn't for that.
	Right, right.
	You would hope that at some point the owner of the agency and the workers would say, well, people aren't commodities to be bought and sold.
	Exactly.
	People are people.
	But it also sheds light on the freak offs.
	Because I can totally understand in principle how the freak off started.
	Because it's like any party.
	It's like the Garden of Earthly Delights.
	It starts at, wouldn't this be fun if we all, hey, let's all have a drink.
	That's fun, right?
	Having a drink is fun.
	But you know what's more fun than one drink is two drinks.
	And you know what's more fun than two drinks?
	And by the way, that part's true.
	Two drinks is more fun than one drink.
	And then you know what's more fun than two drinks?
	Ten drinks.
	That part's not true.
	Actually, 10 drinks is less fun than two drinks.
	But okay.
	And you know what's fun?
	What if we had a bunch of our girlfriends here?
	That could be fun.
	And what if we had like multiple girlfriends here?
	Well, hold on.
	That sounds like it's more fun.
	I mean, you know, 99 problems.
	And, you know, sometimes you get, sometimes more money is more problems too.
	I'm learning all these lessons from rappers.
	But all of a sudden, you can very easily see how what started out as like more, more, more, fun, fun, fun becomes hideous, tedious, painful, nauseating, just gross.
	And that's exactly, I mean, not necessarily exactly, but that portrays my journey in that industry.
	It's like in the beginning, very, seemed very, I'm able to provide a service for these ladies.
	They get what they want, in a sense.
	They get the time spent with a man without the hassle.
	Hey, win-win.
	But as it got more into it and like the more times I spent with Diddy and Cassie, it's like it evolved into, you could just feel in a sense the spirit darken and the mood.
	And it was a lot more orchestrated rather than flow.
	It was much more dictated than in the early days.
	So the early performances were more improvised, you're saying?
	It seemed, I mean, I don't know how long they'd been, I know they'd been seeing other guys prior to me, but it seemed a lot more fluid early on.
	It seemed cordial.
	The spirit was softer, it seemed.
	But I don't know if that was me coming in with clear eyes in a sense.
	Obviously, we've been talking about the male escort world.
	Is it different for female escorts?
	Is the experience different?
	The approach?
	The business?
	Do you even know?
	Would you even know that since obviously you've only been on one side of it?
	The truth is, yeah, I'm fairly clueless.
	I didn't interact with too many female.
	They didn't work at your company.
	Yeah, it didn't work.
	Even our guys, I didn't see any of the other guys on the team.
	We didn't hang out much.
	It just was a straightforward business operation in a sense.
	He tells us time and place, and we show up.
	Yeah, I would like to try to understand it from a women's perspective, but I haven't had a sit-down and chat, but I would like to try to understand it.
	And my assumption would be, you know, especially in that scene in LA, seeing like how one thing I didn't realize, attention was such a drug, you know?
	And so that was one thing too with this.
	I didn't necessarily get that high from attention, but of course it does feel good to be wanted or appreciated by a woman and such.
	But I do believe the attention along with the money has a large factor to play for a woman.
	Now, all of these experiences you've been describing with Diddy were at, it seems like it was more private.
	It was just you at their house or the hotel or something.
	Were you ever at the infamous freak offs?
	No, I never attended any of the freak offs.
	I'm very grateful because I'm the type too, if there's a party, I like to party, but I'm also very respectful of my own sexual ways.
	So, I mean, I'm glad I didn't, because who knows what would have happened at a Diddy party.
	But I never was only me, him, and her, no bodyguards, none of that.
	Oh, wow.
	It was just us.
	Did you ever, because I know at the parties, he hired female prostitutes too, or at least that was alleged.
	But there were no female prostitutes involved in your experience.
	Well, it was, yeah.
	And that's like, I couldn't understand it.
	I didn't understand how, you know, but the guy said I was much different than their circle.
	So that's.
	I could see that.
	I could definitely see that.
	Wow.
	So you actually had a closer, more intimate look at their dynamic and his perversity than really just about anybody.
	I can't confirm, but I...
	For you, it's just you, him, and her.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Every time.
	Outside of Diddy, did you...
	Or were you invited to other Hollywood parties?
	How different was the Diddy experience in the Diddy Empire from your run-of-the-mill clients?
	I would say just as far as like production goes.
	So it was like there.
	So the other dates, you know, I'd go out, we'd go see the town, have fun, and then it would end up, you know, at an intimate setting.
	There, it just was always, it was always a production.
	Every single time was for that scene, that point in time.
	I was there to do my duty.
	There was one time I got called at night and then called back again at 6 a.m.
	So I didn't know what was going on, but I don't know if they had a party in between or what, but I was just got arrested up and then and you just take the call.
	Yeah, text their call.
	If he texts, you available this hour, this time, A-listers show up and the payment, you know, I'd go to the bank, send him his payment and cycle repeats.
	When you say the scene, with Diddy and Cassie, it sounds like, and then you say they were dictatorial and you do this.
	Was it a performance like, you know, okay, you're the pizza boy now or something?
	Or was it a...
	Well, I was going to try to propose that to Diddy one day, that we, because I'm like a, I'm not a white angel, but I'm white and I'm a lot softer than him.
	So I was going to try to propose a setting where her and I are having dinner and, you know, we get a little flirty and he gets to do his thing and watch.
	And then he comes in as the demon and control the situation.
	But we never, I never was able to bring that up or anything because it was all his direction.
	If every scene was completely controlled and set up by him.
	So if we tried to introduce anything, it just whatever he wanted.
	More baby oil, you know, candle here, like hundreds, not hundreds, like 50, 60 candles set up.
	When you say you use this term angel and demon, you mean like in the scene that you had written for yourself, you would literally play an angel?
	I'm the nice guy.
	I'm like the soft guy having a fun or a single guy.
	He's the bad guy, yeah, coming in and owning the situation.
	And then, because that was the scene I'd playing out in my head.
	You know, I'm there taking direction, But I'm, you know, I'm not him.
	I'm not the one.
	Say, I want this, I want this.
	So that was kind of the, I was trying to elaborate with them and just grow our situations.
	There was a time I proposed to her: hey, just if you want me to come over, just send me a word, like work or tie or fly, and I'll bring an outfit or something in correlation.
	We'll have fun.
	Well, that never really went anywhere.
	They just call me, all right, here this time.
	Yeah.
	I take it you spoke to Diddy once since when he called you when you were in Hawaii.
	Have you talked to her at all?
	No, no.
	This is a question from ignorance of pop culture.
	Are they still dating?
	I don't know.
	I think they're probably broken up, right?
	I hope so.
	Yeah, a long time gone, yeah.
	She's got a husband now, some kids.
	Oh.
	Yeah.
	And I do believe it was one of her personal trainers that became her husband.
	And he was at, I saw a clip where he was at one of the cases and he got walked out or something.
	I forget why.
	But, and that's, you know, I wish the absolute best for him.
	You know, to be able to move on and from what she experienced and to have a family, it's a beautiful thing.
	So what about, because you've got this very nice sort of resilient spirit where you're kind of looking at the bright side and saying, that was a mistake.
	I do a lot.
	Yeah.
	I tend to look on the bright side of things.
	But you don't want to paper over bad things.
	You don't want to, you want to learn from your mistakes and go on to have that be sanctifying and productive.
	So is there, if you look back, there's this thread of your people pleaser.
	Is there anything that led you to become a gigolo that you have corrected so that you get to go in a better direction moving forward?
	Yeah, you know, like the I'll gauge challenges and opportunities now instead of just jumping head in.
	I'll have to do a, you know, how does this, how does this sit spiritually?
	You know, you could look at the, I could simply look at the Ten Commandments and help me simplify my game plan.
	You're going to church, I take it.
	Or no.
	Devout Christian, but that's a long story behind that one.
	That's too been out of my church for some time now, but I will always love and serve God.
	But you don't want to go to church.
	It's a long story there.
	It's a long story with my home church.
	Think about a new church.
	I can highly recommend the Catholic church.
	It's very good.
	Latin Mass is beautiful.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I could even make your recommendation in Hawaii.
	They're not on the big island of Hawaii.
	But I'm sure I could find one.
	I'm sure I could...
	Because I'm not just saying this to...
	I'm not just because what I fear from your story is you're telling me I made these mistakes, but hey, I learned from it, and it was better, and I thought it was good at the time, which is an admission that sometimes our judgment gets very clouded.
	And so you say, but I'm Christian.
	I felt I was Christian at the time, and I felt I was serving God at the time, but I guess I wasn't.
	So then you have to ask yourself, well, how do you know if you're serving God now in the way he wants to?
	And there are certain things you can do that God tells us to do that Christians have done for 2,000 years and that the ancient Israelites did before that, which are, you know, he tells you to go to church, tells you to keep holy the Sabbath day.
	He tells you to, he gives you Ten Commandments.
	He gives you a church.
	Before he even gives you a Bible, he gives you a church, which creates the canon of the Bible.
	And the church can guide you.
	And basically, you don't have to do it all on your own.
	You can have some help here.
	You know, there are all these wonderful resources.
	That's when I struggle.
	I struggle to ask for help, man.
	That's one of the things my spirit.
	I hate to.
	Yeah.
	That's one of my things.
	I struggle to ask for help.
	But isn't that the very same kind of disordered desire for independence that maybe you saw even in your clients in your old life?
	The desire to do it all on your own, make your own world all your own.
	Just have it be all about all you.
	Even if you want to do good stuff.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	That's a hill I'm trying to climb and overcome.
	That's one of my pieces of my puzzle I'm looking to figure out.
	I know I never figure it out, but I know I know.
	No, you might figure it out.
	And I say it too, because though I've never been a gigolo or invited to any Diddy parties or anything like that, but I can sense in myself sometimes a disordered desire for independence.
	Look, I work in politics and media.
	There's a desire to control things, do it your way, get your will done.
	And sometimes I have to correct that and say, oh, maybe that's not.
	See, my battle with the church right now is that when during the COVID times, I wanted, I thought it was, I did not like closing the doors.
	I wanted to move in faith.
	I wanted to be a shining light for those.
	When fear hits you, we can lean on our faith.
	Oh, yeah.
	And how I like, I was hoping if it was just my pastor, I wanted to be up there with him.
	If everyone was afraid to come in, let's open the doors for all who are willing.
	And how I saw it is like, if it's part of our plan to die, God's in control of that.
	We're not in control of that.
	And then, so see, too, like, from what I had seen in my experience with the media, the doctor, the dean of medicine, I saw that these narratives are used to control us.
	Like, you know, like did a little digging on, oh, why do we have such a, why do we have such a, in the early days of COVID going into it, why was there such a scare for toilet paper?
	Oh, because the media saw that they can sensationalize a story when there was an 18-wheeler, I think it was in Milwaukee or something, that it overturned.
	And so there is pictures of toilet paper all out on the road.
	So they sensationalized that, take it nationwide, to get everyone to be under this control of this fear.
	Yeah, there was a real promotion of survey fear.
	And you're right, there were a bunch of churches and religious communities that closed.
	You know, we luckily, I was able to keep going to church.
	Though there were Protestant, Catholic, a lot of churches kind of, but even there was a pretty liberal Catholic church in Hollywood that they ended up doing Mass outside and you couldn't go inside.
	They kept the doors open, but they don't, and there was this probably 90-year-old priest who, kind of a liberal guy for being a Catholic priest, 90-year-old guy.
	And this guy was hearing confessions through an open door in the bay.
	He wouldn't stop hearing confessions, even though he was the most vulnerable, actually, being an older guy.
	And he wouldn't, I thought that's exactly the right attitude.
	That's exactly, you have to, you don't want the servile fear of this whole world that you're just, this fetid, corrupt world that you're describing.
	But you do want the holy fear of God.
	Yes.
	Where it's not just about, it's not just about you.
	And that's where I try.
	I want to have my own personal battles.
	I respect and love my pastor that he didn't want, he closed the church because he didn't want anyone to get hurt.
	That he was worried of his people around him were getting sick and such.
	But I don't like that.
	And he shouldn't have closed the church.
	I don't like that.
	You can say he had the best of intentions, but he did wrong.
	That's no reason not to go to church.
	Go find a better church.
	100% right.
	You are.
	I can give you some recommendations maybe in Hawaii.
	But that's really wonderful.
	I mean, it's a virtue, you know, that you look on the bright side of things.
	And if you can pair that with reality, not just a delusional kind of bright side, but if you can pair the seeing the good in things while seeing things really as they are, that's a wonderful way forward.
	That's where this journey, you know, in my Christian walk, you know, I struggle to read the Bible because I have ADH.
	My attention doesn't last very long.
	I read about two, three pages and I'm almost sleepy.
	But I would read scriptures, you know, of how, like, in a sense, the doctor of you, I saw him in a position of respect and adoration where what he says should be true.
	But when you see what he's really doing, he's a disgusting liar.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, there can be a lot of disillusionment because even with pastors and priests, they can be totally...
	Where I was going to is as I got deeper into the word, I would read about the false Pharisees and the false those in the church that may use their position and such in order to deceive.
	Just as, you know, like I take this example too.
	My worldly vision of Satan, his big, orange, ugly demon.
	Ah, scary guy.
	Horns, yeah.
	Orange, horn.
	No, Satan is the most beautiful angel our eyes can see.
	He is the most gracious sounding.
	He's, you know.
	Tempting.
	Very tempting.
	And that is the tool right there, is the deception.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's true.
	You know, there was an ancient heresy called, is that docetism?
	I think it was Docetism, which said that the efficacy of the church's sacraments depended on the sanctity of the priest.
	So if the priest were a bad guy, you know, if you got baptized by a bad guy, well, maybe your baptism isn't valid.
	And happily, that was rejected as heresy because God is bigger than the men who run the church.
	So you could be baptized by some total degenerate who's, I don't know, who's maybe hiring guys like you used to be.
	But God's sacraments still work.
	Yep.
	And God, and that's where I struggle.
	I know that God knows the true intentions of the heart and such.
	I don't.
	And so in those situations where I may assume, because there are times where people at our church were telling us to wear masks and do these things.
	And I saw that as that's the mark of the beast.
	That way we just don't, like, you don't see it.
	Like, how can you not see it?
	It's not, like, you're not getting 666 on your forehead, but you are succumbing to the fears of non-stop.
	If you're doing something that's totally irrational, that's not actually helping public health, it's just a fear symbol, then yeah, you're probably right about that.
	I also want to correct myself.
	I don't think it's the docetists.
	I think it's the Donatists.
	But either way, it's an old heresy and it isn't true, and we got rid of it.
	That's good to recognize.
	It's good that even in the depths of your sin, you were recognizing God is still there.
	But of course, and you got to do something about it instead of just talk about it and say it.
	Yeah, you got to get to action.
	And this is why this is one of the reasons I haven't attended, I haven't been to my church in so many years that my, I don't want to go in and turn tables, but I, because you don't need to be in control.
	Go to a, maybe just go to a different church.
	Yeah.
	At least at first.
	Maybe you can go back to your old church, but you don't need to save the world.
	God already saved the world.
	That's a key.
	Christ already saved the world.
	That's key right there.
	It's like the many times, you know, I always want what's best, but I can't make every situation best.
	You can cooperate with God's grace.
	So then on this point, maybe this is a good point to end on.
	You've come out of this very degenerate lifestyle and you're moving in the right direction.
	And so you haven't talked to Diddy in a while.
	You haven't talked to Cassie in even longer.
	Do you have any advice?
	They might watch us interview.
	Do you have any advice for them?
	The only two words for Diddy is find Jesus.
	There's no other, in my opinion, there's nothing else in this world that can satisfy him.
	There's no, because he will, you know, on that path, like it's no end to his path.
	But yeah, find Jesus.
	And to Cassie, I hope to shake her hand again one day and thank her for, you know, her professionalism through our time together.
	And she's a, I look up to her.
	I admire her, you know.
	Even though, even through all that, like it's, yeah, I got lots of respect for her.
	And I wish the absolute best that she's going to be in my prayers, you know.
	I don't love her like a lover, but I love her as a fellow child of God, you know.
	And you're wishing the best for Diddy, too.
	Oh, clearly.
	I want him to have true justice.
	I mean, I want him to have pure justice.
	I want him to have justice for his actions.
	But I want, I mean, that's the thing, too.
	Like, I do want to party with every soul up there in heaven.
	The real white party.
	The good guy.
	And, you know, like, I don't want to proclaim that Diddy's gone.
	That's a demon that has no, there's no reconciliation.
	But God's greater than my thoughts.
	You know, God's greater than what I see possible.
	And if some degenerate like that can bow before Christ, he could lead many.
	So I'll have faith instead of, you know, instead of just counting it off.
	But absolutely.
	I mean, I want him to have the purest form of justice times 10.
	I'm an eye for an eye kind of guy.
	You do something to others.
	You deserve that upon yourself, plus much worse.
	But in the course of justice, none of us should see salvation.
	So you're hoping for salvation, too?
	Yeah.
	And that's with salvation.
	God he's the true order of justice.
	So John, thank you very much.
	It's been a pleasure, Michael.

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