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Sept. 15, 2025 - Health Ranger - Mike Adams
41:36
Mike Adams Interviews Dr. Torsten Trey: Exposing Forced Organ Harvesting and DAFOH's Fight...
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So what you are saying is that in China they're farming human organ inventory.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's the government, the court system.
You can buy anything, a kidney organ or a liver organ is just a commodity and you can just pay for it to get it.
Powerful people, wealthy people can get organs.
Welcome to today's interview here on Brighteon.com.
I'm Mike Adams, the founder of Brighteon.
And as you know, I have for years spoken out against organ harvesting and organ trafficking operations.
And our special guest today is the founder of an organization called Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting.
That's D-A-F-O-H.org.
If you want to check out the website, we'll show you some of it.
Our guest is the founder, Dr. Torsten Trey, who joins us now to talk about this practice and why some people are being killed for their organs and how this violates all the standards of ethics and humanity and medicine as well.
But welcome, Dr. Trey, to the show today.
It's great to have you on as a guest.
Thank you, Mike, for having me.
I'm very glad to be here and share what I can share with your audience.
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
And you and I have just met just now.
It's the first time we've ever spoken.
And I'm not familiar with your organization.
I'd love to learn more, but I just want you to know I have interviewed other experts in previous years about this very topic.
And I've talked about some books.
I forgot the name, like Red Trade or something was one of the books about organ harvesting and organ trade.
But tell us about DAFO, D-A-F-O-H, Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting, and why you have made this your mission.
Yeah, I'm happy to do that.
So in 2006, I learned actually from an article in the newspaper, the Apocalyptus, that there was a whistleblower who said that her husband was a surgeon in China and he removed corneas from 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners.
And at that time, I thought, wow, that's impossible.
And I got interested in this.
I followed it.
And then there was a few months later a report by two Canadian investigators, David Kulu, David Matters.
They did phone calls to China pretending that they needed a kidney, an organ.
And on the other side of the phone, in the Chinese hospitals, they said, actually, yes, we have only these organs, fresh organs.
They asked specifically if they have organs from Falun Gong practitioners because they are more healthy.
On the other side, they said, yes, our organs are only from this kind.
So at this time, I got really alert.
And I myself went to Boston and to the World Transplant Congress.
And in the hope of talking to some surgeons from China, I did.
And exactly, I found what I suspected.
There's an abundance of organs in China and they have a high number of transplants.
And that didn't make sense because they didn't have an organ donor program.
So when I asked one of them where the organs come from, he admitted to me the organs are coming from Falun Gong practitioners.
And at that time, in the summer of 2006, I said, I have to do something.
There's nobody around who can do, can step up.
And the doctors are usually busy.
So I decided I'm going to start an NGO, Doctors Against Photo Organ Harvesting, and bring more people, more doctors together to inform the medical community and the public.
That's really extraordinary.
And may I ask, where are you based or your organization?
We have our headquarters in Washington, D.C. In Washington, D.C. Okay.
All right.
So, and also for our audience, I just want to mention Falun Gong is a peaceful, it's a Tai Chi kind of practice that involves both spiritual and physical movements for good health and longevity and spiritual awareness.
It's a practice I support.
It's a practice that's pursued by many people in Chinese culture.
And as our audience knows, I speak Chinese.
I lived in Taiwan.
I know the Chinese culture very well.
I used to see Falun Gong practitioners in the park on the mornings, early, very early morning.
They are the early risers of Chinese culture.
And so what you are saying is that in China that there is a marketplace for, I suppose, kidnapping, otherwise taking Falun Gong practitioners and then harvesting their organs while they're living or killing them for their organs or both.
What is it?
So what happened is in 1999, there were about 100 million Falun Gong practitioners.
And at that time, the chairman, the party leader, Zhang Zemin, he probably because of jealousy or because there were more practitioners than members in the Communist Party, or because he found that they expose actually the evil character of the CCP.
Anyhow, overnight he banned Falun Gong and started a persecution against all these millions of people.
So they were detained and in detention camps, probably more than a million practitioners.
And they were brainwashed, at times tortured.
And then also the rule was if they were killed under torture, that would be counted as suicide.
They committed suicide.
So at one point, then they started probably to see that instead of just killing them or torturing them to death, they could actually make profit of it if they use their bodies as organ source.
And then they started to take blood, build up a data bank of the blood types, the tissue types.
They did ultrasounds.
And what we hear from regular criminal inmates is that these blood tests were only done on Falun Gong practitioners, not on the other inmates, the criminal inmates who really committed crimes.
So it was like a targeted bank.
And I remember that David Kilgor, he visited one of the patients who went to China for organ transplant.
And that patient told him that the doctor, he had like a chart.
And then he went down the chart and made this movement.
So this illustrates that they have a data bank of all the inmates, detained Falun Gong inmates, detainees.
And then they can just, when a patient comes, they just go to the data bank and say, okay, the prisoner in cell 501 has this blood type.
We can use him as a kidney.
So they're farming human organ inventory.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And you use the right word, they farm.
And you can only do that in a society where you have all the infrastructure on your side.
So it's the government, the court system, the police, the wards in the detention camp.
All of them, they are working together to farm.
You would not be able to raise such an organ farm, for example, here in the U.S. Okay.
Okay.
That's very disturbing information.
And I think it's well known in the United States that if you're a wealthy person or a connected person, you can get organs.
You can get tissue.
You can get tendon pieces or whatever you need.
Famously, I think the former founder or CEO of Apple, Steve Jobs, when he had cancer, I think that he was placed at the top of a transplant list.
That probably did not involve China.
But there's a sense, and I'd like you to speak to this, there's a sense, I would say it's sort of low-level awareness in America that powerful people, wealthy people can get organs.
Are those organs often coming from China in your research?
It is true that basically this way, that the heads of transplantation, of transplantation centers, they are aware of this here in the U.S. They are aware of the forced organ harvesting in China and they know that you can get a transplant organ within two weeks in China.
So when there are wealthy people coming to them and ask them, what can I do to get an organ in a fast pace, then I would think that some of them say, well, there's an option going to China.
And this is not just like a theory, but I was actually told by a consultant, doctor, who told me about the head of a hospital that I don't want to name here, but he knew that the head of that transplant department referred wealthy people to China.
So there is this thinking of you can buy anything, a kidney organ or a liver organ is just a commodity and you can just pay for it to get it.
Okay.
Let me ask you a sensitive question.
And I know this isn't your area of focus, but one of my family members was, I would say they were organ harvested in the United States, died of a drug overdose, fentanyl, and was kept alive until the organs could be taken from that person.
They were pronounced brain dead, and then the organs were taken.
There's HHS Secretary RFK Jr. has recently raised the alarm over what I would call organ harvesting happening in the United States, but not in the same way that you're describing in China.
Can you speak to what are the differences?
Because clearly there is organ transplantation and organ extraction taking place in America and in Europe, etc.
How is that different from what you're describing as happening in China where there's more of an entire infrastructure for this?
Yeah, in China, you think of this has become an industry, and we are talking about tens of thousands of transplants that are performed based on organs that are illegally, criminally harvested from prisoners of conscience.
I see.
And there is a whole infrastructure behind it.
So this happened over the past 20 plus years.
And I have noticed that this effect that how China approaches the transplant field has undermined or eroded the ethical standards in the West too.
You think of it like a competition, like China can provide an organ within two weeks.
And here in the US, you need to wait five years for a kidney.
So there's like China is out-competing the transplant field here in the US, if you want.
So in some cases, there might now be the situation where the doctors are desperate here in the US to provide organs.
And then in single cases, they might shift the ethical goalpost to get to that organ faster.
I see.
And I would call it a ripple effect of what China is doing, how China has aggressively approached this transplant field that doctors in the U.S. are tempted to follow and get to those donor organs faster and not in the right way.
It might be also, I'm sure this is a factor where people sort of like you go to a restaurant, you order a hamburger.
You don't want to know how that cow was killed.
You don't want to see the slaughterhouse.
You don't want to have to kill the cow yourself.
It seems like a similar thing could happen in organ transplants where there might be a doctor in the U.S. or some other country that's like, I really just don't want to know where this came from.
I want the organ to help this patient here.
Is that kind of in line with what you were just describing?
Or what would you add to that?
There is a bioethicist, Professor Arthur Kaplan.
He basically stated that the doctor team that conducts the transplantation has to know where the organs come from.
It's basically part of their responsibility to, and also part for transparency and the traceability of the organs, that the doctor team knows where the organs come from.
That's an ethical, an ethical standard, an ethical guideline, if you want.
And those guidelines seem to erode over time.
So some people rather say, don't think of the organ donor, but just think of who's the recipient.
We have to, You know, we need that organ to perform the transplant surgery.
Well, right.
And but that's isn't that also a conflict of interest where there's a lot of money in the transplant procedure and in the post-op, the visitation, the anti-rejection drugs, the hospital visits.
All of this can be billed to Medicare and insurance companies.
So there's a conflict of interest when you're speaking about bioethics.
One of the things that we've seen, obviously, in all forms of medicine, is that when there's money to be made, the ethics go out the window often.
It can be true that money is a factor, but I would say in the case of doctors, it might be that the wish to help, the wish to conduct to perform the organ transplantation, that might be the reason to shift the goalpost.
It's not necessarily because of the money.
It's maybe in some cases because of the money, but they might rather be motivated by, you know, to motivated to shift the goalpost of ethics just to provide this transplant surgery.
I understand.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you for that answer.
Let me ask you about organ donation in the United States.
And I suspect this might be a very contentious area, but because of the increased awareness of the practice of declaring patients to be brain dead, which does not have a rigorous basis in physiology, it's kind of a made-up designation, at least in my opinion.
But I'd love your answer.
And it's okay if you disagree.
It's completely okay.
But because of that, I think that fewer people in America trust the American medical system to honor their wishes to be actually dead before the organs are taken.
And as a result, there might be fewer and fewer people who are organ donors.
Like, for example, I refuse to be an organ donor for this very reason, because I know too much.
So, but then doesn't that create scarcity of the organs that then may cause a shift of demand to Chinese-derived organs?
So, isn't this an intertwined issue?
Well, actually, America is a country that has the largest number of registered organ donors, and it is rather has increased.
I think there are right now more than 160 million registered organ donors.
So, it's what you said is not really reflected in the numbers of the registered organ donors.
However, you mentioned the word trust, and that's a key word in the organ transplantation.
You have to have trust that the organ was ethically provided, and also that you get the medical treatment to the point that they really want to save your life, not to get your organs.
So, what happens in the medical field here is that they are under pressure to say where they say, well, if the organ is fresh, it's procured, freshly procured, it has a better survival time, it's better for the recipient.
So, it's kind of like a competition against the time where you try to wait for the procedure to determine that death has occurred, but then also you want to rush for the benefit of the recipient.
It's a very tricky proceed, a very tricky time management, and it really depends on how the medical doctor in charge is rooted in the ethical field, I think.
But I have a follow-up question on that.
If you're saying that America has 160 million registered organ donors, why are we always told that there's a shortage of organs?
We're constantly reminded of that by the medical establishment.
Yeah, so what happened is not every registered organ donor will eventually become an eligible organ donor.
Yes.
And what happened is that in many countries, it's about like 1% of the people who decease, 1% of the registered organ donors who decease are actually becoming eligible as organ donors.
So if you have this huge number, then at the end, it's actually you just have maybe 20,000 organ donors per year in the US or less.
And that's a common phenomenon, this 1%.
1% you also see this in the UK, in France, in Canada.
But interestingly, in China, where the organ donor program is so small, basically they claim that they can have organs from 12% of the registered organ donors.
And that also tells you how they manipulate the data.
So either if the numbers are correct, that is outstanding.
But then the question is, how do they get to 12% if all other countries only have 1%?
So let me ask you, in a reputable country, you talk about the 1% that become eligible organ donors.
Please describe to us, obviously some of that is through accidents.
People have traffic accidents or motorcycle accidents or whatever.
What are the things that happen that make people organ donors?
Yeah, well, one aspect are accidents, fatal accidents.
Then other cases are when people disease on the ICU with a heart arrest or brain death after an accident.
Those are the typical ways where they become organ or potential organ donors.
I see.
And don't forget drug overdose, because I know that personally from my family.
But I'm told that that's a very big vector of young males, especially coming into the emergency rooms with drug overdose and that are then typically pronounced brain dead.
Yeah.
Okay.
Then back to your organization.
Let me give out your website again, DAFOH.org.
It's Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting.
What does your organization seek to do?
Is it to provide diplomatic pressure onto China to change their practices?
Is it exposing that this is happening?
What are your means of hoping to affect change?
So our main mission is basically to provide information, to share objective findings with the medical community and the public.
Because as you probably know yourself and many members from your audience, many people have not heard about forced organ harvesting on this industrial scale in China, because China spends billions of dollars to suppress the information in the mainstream media.
So we are basically swimming against this stream where we want to break this silence and this cover-up by talking and informing about this practice, which I, for example, do right now.
We are speaking on webinars.
We have organized a world summit on this topic.
We have run a petition where we collected 3 million signatures, which is one of the largest civil petitions ever.
So we use different ways to reach out to people and to inform them.
Basically, we try to inform people on a way that usually the newspaper, how the newspaper should inform people.
Okay, so your number one mission is awareness right now.
Awareness, and then after the awareness comes to stop the practice.
Okay.
What do you think would be a means of achieving that?
Would it be international pressure on China's government?
Or how might that even work?
Yeah.
So there are actually plenty of ways.
And the essence of this, what can be done, the essence of this is that China tries everything to silence, to quiet down everyone who talks about it.
So that gives you exactly the answer, what has to be done.
We have to make people knowledgeable of this effect.
I give you an example in 1989 when the student massacre occurred on the Tiananmen Square, then everyone could see on camera how the Chinese government was killing about 3,000 students on the place, and that was horrifying.
What happened afterwards is that many countries pulled out of China and then this created an economic pressure on China.
So awareness can lead to actions.
And this action can be, for example, through economic means.
What we are doing now is the same.
Think about it.
On the Tiananmen Square, there were only 3,000 students killed.
But we believe that through forced organ harvesting, over 25 years, probably more than a million Falun Gong practitioners and others, like Uyghurs, etc., they were killed for the organs, 1 million.
So why was there this outcry after the Tiananmen Square massacre, but not for forced organ harvesting?
The difference is that you had the footage, right?
The footage immediately informed the people what was happening in China.
And this is what we are doing now.
We don't have that footage, but we can inform people through our research and etc.
So we want to achieve basically the same level of information.
And that is basically, that will trigger the next steps.
Let me ask you a pointed question.
And I think I have a responsibility to ask you from the other point of view.
How do we know that this isn't like CIA disinformation to try to discredit China?
Now, remember, I lived in Taiwan.
I support Taiwanese people and I support Chinese ethnicity as people, and I support human dignity, and I'm opposed to human suffering.
But I also know that the United States and Western governments are in an information war against China.
They are constantly trying to discredit China and to economically weaken China.
Trump has threatened tariffs on China, tariffs that he has slapped on India.
And he says that China doesn't have a right to purchase oil from Russia, which seems like a very odd demand, and that he's going to punish China.
But China has grown into such an economic powerhouse with exporting critical rare earth minerals, for example, that China has a lot more leverage today than they did in 1989 with Tiananmen.
So Trump has backed off.
But how do we know when you talk about the Uyghurs, for example?
I've never seen any videos of Uyghurs being tortured and organ harvested.
How do I know that's not just made up by the CIA that maybe fed press releases to your organization?
I just got to ask.
Sure.
Sure.
In terms of the Uyghurs, you're basically asking about evidence, right?
So in terms of the Uyghurs, we don't have that much evidence.
So there are some indications, and there are from the past doctors in the Xinjiang province who harvested organs and they came to public and basically admitted it.
But we have, in terms of Falun Gong, we have an abundance of evidence based on the number of witnesses that were in detention camps and basically they had different experiences.
So in terms of evidence, when we talk to one aspect, one category, and you have to think of this, there is not a single silver bullet that has all the proof.
It doesn't come on a tablet.
So what we have to do is we have to, it's almost like a puzzle where you have to collect the little pieces of evidence and then put it together.
So one of these categories are witnesses.
I hear that from one who was detained for two years, they blood tested that person 10 times.
And there's no reason to take the blood 10 times when the person is also subject to forced labor and torture.
There are no health benefits.
Others reported that they received an ultrasound, an X-ray, and blood test, but there was actually nothing was done to the health.
Others said that they were detained and then the police guard in the hospital said they wanted to take his blood and he said that he didn't want them to take their blood.
And the policeman asked why and he said, in this case, the Feng Wong practitioner said, you do this to harvest my organs.
And then the policemen said, yeah, this is exactly what we plan to do.
So there are plenty of little stories of witnesses that if you bring them all together, you can see there's this intention to harvest the organs from the Falun Gong practitioners.
But other pieces of evidence are just that, for example, annual transplant numbers, which when you compare them with other countries, had like a very obscure cause of numbers.
It was going up by 300% and other people, sorry, other countries only had like 15% increase over five years.
And then the organ donor numbers where China started a so-called organ donation program in 2013.
And then they came up with, they only had the numbers, for example, on December 30, 2015, they increased by exactly 25,000, 25,000 exactly, in one day.
So you can see this was more like a desk drop, not like real people behind these numbers.
I see.
And so it was basically made up to appease the doctors in the West, that they say, well, no, we have an organ donation program, and that's how we get to our transplant numbers.
I see.
But actually, they deceived it.
So if you take everything together, you get a very solid image of what is actually happening.
Okay.
All right.
Fair answer.
And thank you for that.
And again, the reason I wanted to have you on is because I completely oppose, obviously, forced organ harvesting and organ trafficking.
And I try to teach people to take care of their own organs first.
The best way to not need a transplant is don't use a bunch of recreational drugs and abuse your liver with alcohol addiction, et cetera, right?
So that should be the first step.
Keep the organs you were born with healthier.
Let me ask you another obvious question.
I've seen this come up in debates about this subject.
If the U.S. government were to try to pressure China over this, and I think some efforts have taken place over the years, China's response would typically, I think, be, well, you have no right, USA, to lecture us because you, you lack ethics.
I mean, you, America, you have a weapons industry that makes bombs, that ships them to the Middle East.
And sometimes they bomb hospitals.
They bomb doctors.
So, you know, where is your medical ethics?
You make weapons that kill doctors and patients and children.
And then how do you lecture us about our medical ethics?
How do you navigate that when the USA, the U.S. government's policies are not ethical?
I think these are two different places.
One is a medical place.
And for me, as a medical doctor, this is appalling.
We take an oath of a medical oath, and that includes doing no harm.
So if I see that a medical discipline like transplant medicine is abused to, for example, to eradicate unwanted, undesired people in the Chinese society and then make profit of it, that is appalling for me as a doctor in my profession.
What you are saying in the military field, I think that is a different field.
This is regarding, you know, if you want the ethics in the military discipline.
But it's the government.
So the DOD is under the United States government.
And if our government is pressuring China, China would obviously respond and say, well, your government has these other ethics violations in these other areas.
That's what I'm trying to get at.
It's like, wouldn't it be easier for us to demand ethics of other countries if our own government had better ethics?
Of course, like everyone can improve ethics.
And this is here the problem.
If China Commits forced organ harvesting and thereby violates ethical standards and then gets an advantage of it, basically gets an advantage in the transplant field, then it has a ripple effect on other countries where they also say that, well, if they are cheating, if they are deceiving, then we can also do the same.
So it's like why it's a problem that if one party tries to get advantages, benefits by cheating, then others are, you know, say that like, oh, I do this in the same in other fields.
That, you know, it's really like a ripple effect.
And the answer to this, how to solve this, is at one point you start to have a strong voice for ethics and speak up.
For example, there is now a Senate bill in the Senate, a bill against forced organ harvesting.
It's the Senate Bill 817.
And that bill, that says that, for example, people who were involved in the forced organizing China, they don't get a visa, or it asks to decouple our transplant system here in the U.S. from the Chinese transplant system.
Actually, this is something that the HHS after Afghan Jr. just released, I think, yesterday or today.
Then they asked the transplant field to decouple from the Chinese transplant system.
So basically, this is now in the Senate.
And if your audience wants to help, then they can call their senators and ask their senators to co-sponsor this bill.
What's the bill number again?
It's S817.
S817.
Okay.
And it also seems to me, you know, in terms of helping Americans protect their organs and not needing transplants, that, you know, for those who really need them, it can make them more available.
And it strikes me, I've covered in the past, the FDA has been very reluctant to recall dangerous drugs that cause permanent liver damage.
For example, resolin, which was a diabetes drug.
The FDA kept it on the market for far too long.
Even when it was pulled off the market in the EU, the FDA kept it on the market because of its loyalty to the pharmaceutical companies to generate profits.
And all that time, it was causing at least 50,000 Americans to have liver failure.
So imagine that kind of influx onto the transplant demand and also over-the-counter Tylenol.
You know, extreme liver damage when you combine it with alcohol or other pharmaceuticals.
And everybody's told to just pop Tylenol like it's candy, and it's not.
It's extremely toxic to the liver under certain combinations.
So aren't there things that we can do in America to stop damaging our organs, even at the government level?
You're absolutely right.
Medicine is not like an amusement park.
Medicine is not like a fitness practice.
Or medicine is not meant to do all these spare time activities, if you want.
Tylenol has its function in certain medical incidents, but it is not meant to be like, as you said, like a daily candy.
A few days ago, there was a meeting at a military parade in Beijing, and there was a conversation between Xi Jinping and the Russian president.
The longevity comment, yeah.
Exactly.
And one said, oh, but 70, you are actually young.
And then the other said, like, yeah, if you have actually continuous transplants, then you can actually be immortal.
And then the other said, again, yeah, you can reach 150 years.
So this is basically transplant medicine is used as a, you know, like a fitness instrument.
Right.
It's used to reach longevity.
But that was not the intent.
The intent was to, you know, to help people to cure an illness to reach the, basically let them reach their natural age.
It's not meant to, you know, achieve longevity.
And you see a parallel how people abuse medicine, either Tylenol or transplant medicine for longevity.
This is not what medicine was meant to be for.
Well, I'm so glad that you prioritize medical ethics.
I completely agree with you on that point.
And even though we're out of time for today, I'm very happy to meet you.
And I want to mention your organization again.
DAFOH.org is the website, Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting.
And Torsten, tell our audience how they can help support your organization.
Well, there's a way to donate to our organization on our homepage.
But I'm actually, I always say that if you want to help us, just spread the word.
Talk to your doctors if they know about it.
Talk to your friends and neighbors.
We are really in this field.
Just pro bono.
We don't want to make any profit.
We just want to stop this practice.
And the first step is to break the silence and to speak about it.
That's really what it's about.
That's absolutely true.
And I'll say for myself and the show here, we absolutely denounce forced organ harvesting of any kind by any country, any culture whatsoever.
But then again, we denounce all forms of violence against human beings.
But sadly, we have a lot of things to choose from today when it comes to violence being committed against humans.
But you and I are both on the same page about human compassion, valuing life, having those pro-human values.
So thank you for joining me.
Well, thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Very nice to meet you, and thank you for all that you do.
And again, the website, folks, is dafoh.org.
Spread the word, help support the Senate bill.
Encourage your representatives in Congress to be aware of this, to call it out.
We are not opposed to voluntary organ donations.
We are opposed to involuntary or forced organ harvesting in all of its various forms all over the world, including in China.
So thank you for joining me today.
I'm Mike Adams, the HealthRanger, Brighteon.com.
Take care.
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