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Feb. 7, 2025 - Health Ranger - Mike Adams
01:09:42
Mike Adams joins Sina McCullough and Joel Salatin to talk about Understanding Toxin...
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A lot of people, they tend to focus on only the toxins.
Like, oh, I want to avoid, you know, MSG or I want to avoid glyphosate.
And what I've tried to explain to people over time, and even my own position has matured on this over time, I used to be actually a lot more panicked about it than I am now.
But what I realize now is that when you have good nutrition and you have the trace minerals and the macrominerals and the phytonutrients that God intended for us to eat, your body can naturally defend against a lot of toxic load.
And since we live in a toxic world, there's no way to avoid some level of dioxins or even glyphosate.
Hi, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
I'm Dr. Sina McCullough.
And of course, I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
But today we have a very special guest.
His name is Mike Adams.
You may have known him as the Health Ranger.
He is a globally recognized scientific researcher specializing in forensic food analysis, and he is widely considered the natural product industry's most authoritative expert on heavy metal contamination.
He is the founding editor of naturalnews.com, and he is the lab science director of an internationally accredited analytical lab known as CWC Labs.
He also founded Brideon.com, and that was basically to promote our right to free speech.
He also authored the world's first book that published ICP-MS heavy metal analysis from results from foods, dietary supplements, pet food, spices, and fast food.
That book is one of my personal favorites, and it's entitled Food Forensics.
Now, beyond his scientific interest, Mike Adam lives on a ranch in Texas.
He cares for Nigerian dwarf goats, rescued donkeys, and free-range chickens.
He practices permaculture and self-reliant home gardening.
He's a strong advocate of personal preparedness, ecological protection, and self-reliance.
And his resume goes on and on.
We're going to dive into that today.
But first, welcome to the program.
Well, thank you for having me on.
It's an honor to join you both today.
Great.
Okay, we have so much to cover.
I'm going to jump right in.
So my first question is about your book, Food Forensics.
This was groundbreaking in publishing results of heavy metals, as I said, in our food supplements and so forth.
What were some of the most surprising findings in the research that you conducted for that book?
Well, first of all, it's very surprising, I think, for a lot of people to realize that the USDA organic program does not require any Standards for heavy metals and no testing whatsoever.
So, and I know Joel knows very well about the process of the USDA. Organic certification is a process, not a result.
So you can actually have heavy metals contaminated foods that come out as certified organic and the USDA is currently okay with that.
Now, fortunately, they don't allow...
Organic foods to be grown in bio sludge.
I did a full documentary on bio sludge, which is human waste that's dumped on farms.
But that's allowed in conventional foods.
And some farmers are tricked into dumping bio sludge on their farms because the, well, you know, the cities that produce the sludge, they say, hey, it's free fertilizer.
It's filled with nitrogen, which it is.
And a lot of other things that you don't want on your food, by the way.
So that film is available for free.
People can watch it at biosludged.com.
That ends with E-D, biosludged.
And I interviewed Dr. David Lewis for that film.
He was featured in it.
Dr. David Lewis is a former EPA whistleblower about the contamination of soils with all kinds of horrible things that are found in biosludge, including heavy metals.
So I know I might be going deeper down the rabbit hole than you intended with that question.
But the critical thing for people to begin to understand is that if you want clean food, it's not about your relationship with government.
It's not about USDA certification, FDA, EPA, because the EPA is mostly in bed with the pesticide industries and so on.
It's about your relationship with your local farmer, really.
It's about your relationship.
With the people who grow your food, people at the CSA, people at the Farmer Co-op, or growing your own food, because certifications and qualifications do not mean your food is clean.
That's the takeaway from our years of research that I put into that book.
Well, it sounds like you're actually going beyond labels.
Yeah, it does indeed.
Sorry, I couldn't help that.
I have a question on that point.
In your research, Is there something that organic production does that actually stimulates heavy metals more than what conventional agriculture does?
No, I don't think so.
The crops that we tend to find heavy metals on the most are either crops that are grown in the soil, such as turmeric, Or ginger, you know, those kinds of herbs that actually grow under the soil.
And you would think maybe potatoes, but we don't typically find heavy metals in potatoes.
And the other place that we find heavy metals is foods that come in from China.
Because China uses for its irrigation a lot of water sources that are not necessarily very clean.
There's a lot of industrial runoff from the very strong industry in China.
And then certain crops such as rice that are grown in a lot of water-intensive fields, well, they will tend to take up those metals.
And then even in things like rice protein from China, we will tend to find much higher levels of cadmium as well as lead than from foods grown in other countries.
For example, rice grown in Texas is very, very clean.
And rice grown in California is very clean.
And rice grown almost everywhere else, but rice out of China.
Can be highly questionable.
You also found radioactivity in the soil, like radioactive compounds.
Is that true?
At very trace levels, yes.
Our mass spec instruments can scan for any atomic mass, including radioisotopes.
Even though we don't handle radioisotopes as standards in the lab, we can get what's called a quick scan or a semi-quant scan on radioisotopes.
And one of the things that we can see, by the way, is fallout from nuclear testing from the 1950s.
It's there.
I'm not saying that it's a danger to your health.
It's not.
It's at such a low level.
But we can see it.
It's there.
The whole planet has been, in effect, contaminated with...
Nuclear fallout at some level.
That's true.
Okay.
And do you think, are we still seeing that from like the fallout in Japan, like in the fish or like any aquatic species that we might eat?
Well, yes, at some level, but I wouldn't say it's at a level that's high enough to be of a concern for human health.
I would say that for ocean species, the far greater concern would be mercury.
And we see very high mercury uptake in certain types of ocean fish right now, and also in certain types of ocean plants and certain types of seaweeds.
So there's a lot of benefits from seaweeds and different types like brown seaweed and so on.
A lot of benefits.
They are known to be high in arsenic, although there's a form of arsenic that's a lot less harmful.
That is typically found in the seaweed.
So I'm not saying don't eat seaweed.
Seaweed can be very, very healthy and very good for you.
But balance that.
Don't have your whole diet focused on just swordfish and seaweed because you will overdo the mercury and arsenic uptake if you do that.
Well, that's good.
You can add some chicken and beef along there sometimes.
That's right.
Exactly.
I mean, the land-based meats typically do not have high heavy metals.
We rarely find that.
Really, when it comes to heavy metals and meat, it's all ocean-based.
Land-based meats do not have heavy metals.
The risk factor for land-based meats is really more of dioxin accumulation in the fats, and that is something that we're just bringing online in our lab with a triple-quad mass-spec gas chromatography instrument to do trace-level dioxin testing.
And the thing to note about dioxins is it's unavoidable because they're produced from house fires or when people burn household trash and they burn PVC materials such as old PVC water pipes, that produces dioxins that fall on the grasslands.
It just falls on grasslands everywhere.
And then those dioxins...
Are taken up and they bioaccumulate in the fats of chickens or cattle or what have you, and so there's a certain level of dioxins that are found in meats.
But is it a cause for alarm?
I don't think so.
There are lots of other things that you can do to protect yourself from dioxins, but there might be certain areas, such as in the aftermath of the East Palestine, Ohio, train burning accident, where you had a lot of polyvinyl chloride material that was combusted that probably dropped a lot of dioxins on certain parts where you had a lot of polyvinyl chloride material that was combusted The EPA was reluctant to do any testing there, and it's going to be up to private labs like us to actually ultimately do that.
Thank you.
Sounds like a lot of things.
There's more difference.
There's more difference within things than there is in one thing.
I'm going to say that better.
Well, in breeding, and we have livestock.
So people are always, well, what breed do you use?
They're always looking for the magic breed.
I hear you've got Nigerian dwarf goats.
Bless your heart.
We don't have goats here because I don't want to have something that's smarter than I am.
So we don't have goats.
But anyway, people always ask for the breed.
And what we've found is that there's more difference within breeds than there is from breed to breed.
You take a Hereford cow, some of them are happy in the cold, some of them aren't.
Some of them are happy and hot, some of them aren't.
Some of them are tall, some of them are short.
A geographical locale for contamination.
If, you know, if you're next to some, you know, industrial landfill site, you might not want to get your food from there.
That's right.
And so, like, your rice example of, you know, well, don't get it from China, get it from California or Texas.
It's not rice is bad.
It's the locale of provenance, which brings us back to know your farmer.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
I want to say that as a food scientist, I've seen a lot of undue alarm about things in the food from people who don't necessarily know the difference between parts per billion and parts per million.
And I've seen a lot of alarm over aluminum in food.
Even as I've become more educated about that, you know, aluminum is very, very, it's a common element in soil.
Very common.
And plants, all plants, naturally take up aluminum.
You're not going to find a plant without aluminum in it.
Now, aluminum has no biological function in the human body, and it is toxic at some level.
If it bioaccumulates, it can affect neurology.
However, your body has a natural process to eliminate aluminum.
And so do all cows, and so do all chickens.
And there are natural substances that you take in, certain mineral complexes, for example, that help your body bind with free aluminum and eliminate it through normal kidney function.
So I've seen people sound alarm over, oh, I took green beans and I sent them to a lab and it came back with aluminum.
Oh my God!
And my reaction is...
Oh, we see that in everything we test.
Because aluminum is always there.
So don't freak out over aluminum.
What the answer is to that is drink clean water, right?
And have a lifestyle where you sweat.
Because sweating is a way of your body eliminating these toxins.
And sometimes I hear people...
In the purging detox industry that are talking about how you really have to suffer.
You need to be vomiting and you need to have diarrhea and that's how you know you're healing.
And I'm like, I don't think so.
Really all you need to do is have a lot of clean water, have a lifestyle.
You should be sweating anyway.
You should be working physically.
You should be moving your body.
And sweat is normal.
And your body's eliminating toxins.
Even through respiration, your body's eliminating toxins.
And then if you're eating food that's on the cleaner side and you're getting a variety, you know, you're getting clean meats and, you know, your clean proteins, but also your clean fruits and vegetables.
And fruits, I can't say enough about fruit fibers.
Fruit fibers are nature's heavy metals vacuum.
Or broomstick.
When you eat fruit fibers, like for example, did you know that strawberries, all the seeds on a strawberry are on the outside, you know, the perimeter of the berry.
And each seed, and they're tiny, but each seed has a little strand that connects it to the center of the strawberry.
Those strands are completely resistant to nitric acid and hydrochloric acid.
You can't dissolve them.
So what happens is those strands become little brooms that actually sweep through your digestive tract, eliminating any built-up toxins, and they bind to heavy metals.
So just by eating strawberries, you're actually eating a detox mechanism.
So that's why I say, people ask me, well, I want to go have a brisket barbecue, but I don't want maybe some of the toxins from the burnt edges of the brisket.
And like, do you eat brisket?
I'm like, yeah, I love to eat brisket.
I just eat coleslaw and strawberries with it.
Yeah, you can't be from Texas and not like brisket.
We have the best barbecue in the world.
It doesn't get any better than that.
Yes, I spent a weekend going to the best barbecue places in Texas in order to determine what's the best one and just have my fresh fruit and my fresh smoothies with me.
See, I have my smoothies.
So I'm not afraid to eat barbecue.
I just make sure I balance it with all the other nutrition that keeps it clean.
That's my strategy.
Okay, and I love this because Joel and I, like I think I can speak for Joel possibly here when I say that you're speaking our love language, Mr. Adams, because this is how we are.
Our philosophy is faith over fear.
So don't walk through in fear.
You know, like, God's got this.
It's going to be okay.
So when you're speaking, I can just feel my whole body calm down.
Like, I was a little bit concerned about, oh, is he going to rile us up?
And I'm going to get really paranoid to eat anything now.
No.
So this is great.
So if you could, maybe let's take a few steps back and give us, like, a food consumption 101 for dummies.
You know, like, so when you're saying, The clean foods, the clean meat, the clean fish, the clean fruits, the clean vegetables.
What are you talking about?
Give us examples.
Because obviously we go beyond the label too.
So we've talked a lot on this program about how even when something's organic, they still will sometimes find traces of sometimes adulterants on it, like glyphosate, for instance.
So there's a lot of fear of how do you know what you're actually eating in the first place?
So how do you...
Even as an individual, you know, with all this scientific background that you bring to the table, how do you decide what is clean for you to eat?
Okay, well, that's a great question.
And it's a two-part answer.
And let me address the nutritional deficiency part first, because a lot of people, they tend to focus on only the toxins.
Like, oh, I want to avoid, you know, MSG or I want to avoid glyphosate.
What I've tried to explain to people over time, and even my own position has matured on this over time.
I used to be actually a lot more panicked about it than I am now.
But what I realize now is that when you have good nutrition, and you have the trace minerals and the macrominerals and the phytonutrients that God intended for us to eat, your body can naturally defend against a lot of toxic load.
And since we live in a toxic world, there's no way to avoid some level of dioxins or even glyphosate.
I did a study in our lab.
I bought, I don't know, 20 brands of beer and tested them for glyphosate.
I think it was just like popular beer brands.
And then I put out the results.
And I didn't find any of them that had alarming levels of glyphosate, even though we detected some level of glyphosate in every beer.
But the levels were very small, like in some cases, single digit parts per billion.
And I explained to people, you would have to drink.
Like a swimming pool filled with beer to have a toxic load of glyphosate from this beer.
I got a little bit of pushback from some people who said, well, even one part per billion could give you cancer.
And my reaction is, I don't actually think that's true.
Unless you're crazy nutritionally deficient and you're weak and you're fragile, you have no immune system functioning, then toxins can have a big effect on you.
But the way to get your nutrition is to eat wholesome, real foods.
Like, you know, what Joel does there, when you're raising real beef on, you know, real grass and real food, and some supplementation, I'm sure there's mineral supplementation that, you know, cattle ranchers typically use, and that's actually really important.
Isn't it interesting that doctors never tell humans to supplement with minerals, but every cattle rancher knows to supplement with minerals, right?
And my granddad raised cattle, and I grew up around.
A cattle farm, by the way, so I'm very familiar with that.
But that's because that keeps the cattle healthy.
It prevents disease.
It prevents toxins from overcoming the body's defenses.
Well, the same thing is true with humans.
So if you're eating, the other part of the question is, if you're eating heavily, heavily processed factory foods, you know, like cookies and crackers and cake and whatever, refined everything, refined white bread.
Yeah, of course.
You're going to lack minerals.
And then you're vulnerable to the toxins.
So my takeaway from all of this is don't panic about the trace levels of toxins that are in the food, but take in high nutrient density foods, including superfoods and where necessary, possibly supplements if you're lacking in a certain area.
And then don't freak out about it.
Just be okay.
Yeah.
Have that faith over fear.
Yes.
So even though the label is not perfect, as Joel and I can attest to with the USDA organic label, for example, do you still choose organic produce over conventional produce in part because of the bio sludge?
Okay, so you do.
I do.
Well, and also specifically, I really want to avoid the organophosphates, the pesticides, even more than the herbicides.
The pesticides really interfere with neurology.
And although I consume a lot of neuroprotective substances like turmeric on a regular basis, I also don't want to damage my brain with pesticides.
So, yeah, I choose organic whenever possible, but I also understand that it's not enough by itself.
Okay, yeah, exactly.
Wow, Joel, I think he's our third pea in the pod.
Right?
He sounds like us.
Yeah, yeah, that's for sure.
And Seen and I, we banter back and forth about my 80-20.
Seen, I'll put you on the spot a little bit here.
But, you know, one is, I'm saying 80-20 lets me go to a three-year-old's birthday party and eat Walmart chocolate cake and not whatever.
That's right.
Not beat myself up over it or not make a scene, you know, in the family get-together, whatever.
Absolutely.
And so sometimes I wonder if our purest paranoia, to be 100% perfect, causes more stress than if we just...
80-20, 80-80, do it right, and 20 gives you a little bit of wiggle room to be a nice guest.
I travel a lot.
People are always paranoid about what they're going to feed me.
I've experienced that.
The only thing I'm allergic to is McDonald's and Chick-fil-A. From what you just said, just think about the latest research.
77% of all food that Americans consume, I might be wrong on one percentage, but basically 77% of all food Americans consume is ultra-processed.
Yeah.
So that's going to make you vulnerable to all these things.
So suddenly their ability to hurt you elevates through the roof compared to somebody like the three of us who are at least, let's say, 80-20.
95-5, but 80-20 is good enough to make a big change.
Well, I think that's a very wise posture.
And also, as a food scientist myself, as someone who's lectured about food and studied it, we have to realize there's a very strong cultural orbit around food, just as you were alluding to there, Joel, which is that people use food during celebrations, at weddings and birthday parties and get-togethers.
And it's often very discourteous to reject people's food.
On the other hand, there are many of us, like myself, who are very sensitive to things like MSG. And since MSG, or free glutamate, is very common in many prepared foods or processed foods, sometimes I do have to query someone who, let's say, cooked a meal.
They created a meal.
Oh, it's biscuits and gravy.
And I have to ask them, well, how did you make the gravy?
Oh, well, it's from a gravy mix.
Well, immediately I know I can't eat that because that's MSG. And sometimes I'll say, well, you know, what my grandmother used to do was, you know, take the sausage.
She would cook the sausage in the pan and then take the grease.
And then the grease makes the gravy.
And then you add the flour and the salt and pepper.
That's real gravy.
Like, if you have that, I'm happy to eat that.
I'm not going to eat this.
This pre-mixed MSG gravy, right?
So they are going to hear that from me, but I'm not going to make them feel stupid about it.
I'm just going to say I'll need to choose something different.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you'll love it.
Back when we first started our commercial egg...
Part of our enterprise.
We were taking our eggs down to an actual egg factory about 20 miles away.
And we would collect them all for a week, and then we'd take all these eggs down there.
They'd run them through their washer, candler, and grater, and sorter, and box them up.
And so when we first went down there, and so what they do is they would run ours through, and then they would run theirs through because we didn't want their contamination on our eggs. and then they would run theirs through because we didn't Oh.
So anyway, we didn't do that very long.
We only did that for, I don't know what, four or five months.
And then we started doing everything ourselves.
But anyway, the lady in the tent that was candling the eggs...
For cracks and blood spots, things like that.
I asked her, she's over this candling, and I said, what do you do with all the cracks and stuff?
She's putting the cracks in a separate...
She says, oh, they go down the road here and they put them in a great big chamber with a big piston that squeezes them.
So I want you to realize these are eggs.
They have chicken manure on them.
They're, you know, they're just okay.
So they just dump all these eggs in a great big cylinder, a hydraulic cylinder that presses the eggs through a screen.
And keeps the shells on one side and all the liquid on the other side, along with some chicken manure and things like that.
And I said, what are those sold for?
He said, oh, those go to Duncan Hines and stuff when you get a cake mix.
And they use them in cake mixes because they're going to be cooked.
They're going to be baked.
So it's very low risk to have a little bit of poop and stuff in there if you're going to actually cook it and bake it.
And so ever since that day, we always tell people with a big smile, hey, if you're going to use a cake mix, get it without eggs.
Make sure to add eggs.
Because if you don't have to add eggs, it might be a little bit dicey.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, well.
But I will tell you, my dogs don't mind chicken eggs with little chicken poop on them either.
They go right for them.
But you're right.
We don't want to be eating that.
But it goes to show you sort of the factory food model, what that entails.
And, you know, a lot of people would be horrified about what's actually what ends up in their food.
But I think we should be a lot more concerned about what's not in the food.
You know, the mineral depletion is really, really critical.
And I think as your viewers are well informed, they know that minerals cannot be synthesized by plants.
So this, you know, it seems like a really basic thing for a lot of us who have been in this business for a long time.
But the typical food consumer does not realize this, that plants synthesize vitamins and phytonutrients like vitamin C or sulforaphane from broccoli or...
Curcumin in turmeric, these are synthesized mostly from carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen.
But minerals, obviously being on the table of elements, cannot be synthesized except through fusion and fission, which does not happen in plants.
It happens in exploding stars, right?
So when the soils are depleted of minerals because of continued farming, which is a mineral extraction process, if those minerals are not replaced back into the soils, then...
You know, subsequent generations of crops are, of course, mineral deficient.
And most people are living on mineral deficient foods.
And when you are mineral deficient, then your body cannot function as it was intended to function.
Your cells can't function.
The cellular energy, the mitochondria, all of it.
You need trace copper.
You need trace selenium.
You need, you know, macro amounts of magnesium and calcium.
It's so funny to me.
Sometimes people ask me, like, what should I take as a calcium supplement?
I'm like...
Plants.
They're all loaded with calcium.
Eat broccoli.
You need calcium, eat broccoli.
You need calcium, just drink smoothies, man.
They're loaded with calcium.
Plants won't grow without calcium.
But people are lacking trace minerals, and that's a big cause of degenerative disease, in my view.
And when you're lacking these minerals, it can also inhibit your ability to detoxify your body, correct?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Minerals are the catalyst for so many enzymatic processes in the body.
And, you know, what's interesting is ocean water contains every element at some level.
And, you know, when there's a tidal wave and the ocean waters flood.
Like an agricultural area, like what happened a few years ago in the Indian Ocean with that big tsunami.
Yes, it was devastating to the real estate, but then in subsequent years, the crops are so much better.
Why?
Because it deposited minerals.
Same thing, you know, like think about the history of agriculture, the flooding of the River Nile, right?
The flooding would do what?
It would restore nutrients to the croplands.
So flooding, which is halted by modern day dams.
You know dams stop the floods and so it stopped the replenishment of the agricultural lands and it led like damming rivers which of course generated clean hydroelectric energy but it also resulted in depleted food supplies for the populations.
Like people don't normally think about these kinds of you know synergistic effects.
Well, one of the most interesting ones that we know is the role in exactly this same theme is the role of fire throughout history to release the minerals through ash.
And, you know, Disney has done a great disservice with Bambi and fire and actually the Native Americans.
They lit fire.
I mean, they didn't have chainsaws, okay?
So their management tool was fire, and it was to attract the wildlife who would come to a burn to lick the charcoal and lick the ashes to get the minerals.
And so the Indians would do a fire, you know, two or three, four, five acres.
Here come the wildlife.
The Indians, you know, can harvest the wildlife because the wildlife is attracted.
Even before the...
Before the smoke was away, you know, while it was still kind of smoldering, the wildlife would come in to lick and get those minerals.
So, you know, that's a critical element on our farm.
You know, we have a big commercial chipper and we view the forest as a carbon and mineral sink that we chip and then we compost all that, put that on the fields.
Oak trees have more calcium.
Per volume of material than any other living substance except bone.
And we have a lot of oak trees.
See, that's wonderful.
I love that you're saying that because I think composting should be viewed also as a mineral management task.
Right.
You think about your concentrating minerals in the compost and then you're redistributing that and with the right soil pH then.
This is really critical.
I know you're both aware of this, but just...
In case your audience needs a review, you know, the pH determines the range of minerals that can be absorbed by the plants, right?
So, you know, too acidic and you start to lose uptake of certain minerals.
And too alkaline, you know, you have the same problem, but with a different set of minerals.
So acidic, you know, rainwater is slightly acidic.
So rainwater is critical for freeing up, typically for...
The slight acidity frees up minerals, making them more available to plants.
And that's why if you've ever tried to grow plants on well water, you know, versus rainwater, it's like night and day, right?
But that's probably why it's the acidity of the rainwater, which is freeing.
I remember it's so funny.
Remember years ago, Joel, when in the 1980s and they were trying to scare us about acid rain?
Yeah.
All rain is acid.
I mean, a little bit.
And if you don't have a little bit of acidity, you're not going to free up the minerals in the soil.
And it turns out that was just another media scare story.
Well, it's another example of where it was only one part of the issue.
You know, acid rain on low humus, low organic matter soils.
Can create problems really fast.
But acid rain on high organic matter, you know, 6%, 7%, 8% organic matter soil that's got all that humus and spongy absorptive in it and biology, it's actually an asset.
Absolutely.
Depending on, and of course, what's the number one way to eliminate organic matter is...
Monocrop tillage.
That's the number one way to eliminate soil organic matter.
Isn't that true?
We're coming up on the, I think, the end of a chapter of an experiment in food production that has failed.
And that's why I love what you do, Joel, because I think you're showing the way forward.
You're showing how we can actually produce food.
Feed people in a wholesome and nutritious way, but also in a sustainable way that actually builds soil, builds the resource.
You know, regenerative agriculture, you are regenerating, whereas I think the era that we are coming out of, which I would say, you know, post-World War II era, it's an era of extraction, of an era of soil loss, of mineral loss, loss of the great treasure of North America, which is...
The food basket, the soils, the fossil water supplies, the root systems that hold together the soils rather than allowing them to vanish through erosion or wind or what have you.
That era is a disaster.
But there is a way forward, and you're doing it, Joel.
Go ahead, Sina.
Sina, I know you're dying with some more.
We've got another 15 minutes or so.
I know you've got other stuff on your plate.
Yeah, it just goes by too fast.
Okay, so what I'd like to do then, we talked a lot about food.
Can we switch over to supplements?
And the first question I have...
To piggyback on the food, is do you consume a mineral supplement yourself?
And if you do, which one is it?
There's only one mineral that I supplement, and that's zinc.
Okay.
Yeah, only one.
And I use zinc drops, and I put it in my smoothie.
I just drink it, even though it can taste a little funky.
You don't need very much.
So, you know, your zinc requirement is very, very low.
When it comes to mineral supplementation...
I noticed that the store-bought multivitamins and multiminerals, they always contain way too much copper.
Copper is one of those trace minerals that has a very narrow range of efficacy.
And for adults, I think two milligrams to four milligrams per day is really the max that you want to get.
And those are milligrams, right?
So we're talking really, really small amounts.
Well, what a lot of people are doing is they're getting...
Four milligrams in their multi-mineral supplement, plus they're getting all the extra copper from their normal consumption of meats or foods or even elemental copper from old water pipes, things like that.
As a result, they're getting into long-term chronic overexposure to copper, which can lead to psychiatric disorders, believe it or not.
So a lot of psychiatric disorders, mental illness problems in people who live around copper mines because of a lot of extra copper that falls.
And ends up in the soils and in the food.
So I would just encourage people, be very careful with daily supplementation of trace minerals that have a narrow range of efficacy.
Now, zinc isn't a different ballpark altogether.
You can do a lot of extra zinc without problems.
And of course, calcium and magnesium, you're typically not going to overdose on those.
It would be hard to, I should say.
I guess it's possible.
But, you know, selenium is also a pretty narrow range in selenium.
And just trying to think about, like, what are some minerals that you want to know about?
Well, I think that zinc and copper are two of the big ones, you know, based on what we just went through with COVID and so many people supplementing with, you know, particularly with zinc.
Now, what is your opinion on vitamin D supplementation?
Yeah, I do supplement vitamin D, even though I do spend a fair amount of time outside.
And so I know my body's making it.
I do tend to supplement it anyway, because I know that vitamin D deficiency, especially in the winter months, is extremely common and very costly.
So vitamin D deficiency not only leads to more cancer growth.
You know, the tumors that people have in their bodies tend to grow in the winters because that's when they're vitamin D deficient, but also immune system function and kidney function among other things.
You know, vitamin D is, you know, essentially it's a hormone and it's involved in metabolism and blood sugar metabolism, even to some extent cognitive function as well.
So I don't want to be deficient in vitamin D at all.
There is a toxic level of that.
That you can get into, so don't go crazy with it.
But have it tested, you know?
I mean, have your blood tested and get a readout.
You know, one of the things that we've done in our lab, by the way, is we've tested people's hair.
We don't offer this currently, but we used to do a lot of testing of hair for minerals.
Obviously not vitamin D, but for trace minerals and toxic minerals.
And even when testing my own hair and...
We found this across the samples that we tested.
People's hair is far more toxic than any hair that I would get from a wild animal.
So my dogs would occasionally catch a rabbit or they'd bring in part of a deer or whatever that had already died.
And so I would harvest some fur and test it as a scientist.
I'm curious, what's the mineral composition of this hair?
Turns out...
That rabbit hair shows that rabbits have a very, very clean diet compared to humans.
Same thing with deer.
And I've also tested wild hog hair because we have those too here in Texas.
And so all the wild animals are so much cleaner than we are.
Even myself, and I tend to have a very clean diet, my hair had more mercury, more cadmium, more lead, more arsenic than any of the wild animal hair.
Isn't that interesting?
Wow, that is interesting.
So presumably from the food, the water that we're consuming, or maybe even supplements that might be adulterated?
I think it's mostly from certain foods and supplements, is my guess.
And I'm very careful.
I mean, I mostly only take supplements from my own company for this very reason, because I know we've tested them.
But you can get metals in food, that's for sure.
It's just...
Look, people get heavy metals from sources that they're sometimes gullible about them.
Let me give you a story, a true story.
There was a man, I'm not going to give his name, but there was a man, I think he lived in India, and he would tour around the United States, and he would give these seminars on miraculous spiritual healing.
And he would invite people to come to the seminars for free, get large crowds there.
I don't know if it was new agey or what.
I really don't know.
But he would sell.
His profit model was to sell these mysterious spherical supplements.
And people would get incredibly sick on these supplements.
And the way I know this is that one of these people said that they got incredibly sick and they sent us one of these supplements to test.
Well, We tested the supplement, and the mercury was off the charts.
It contaminated our ICP instrument, and it actually went OR, which is out of range, on mercury, which we had never seen before.
It was so alarming to me that we actually have a duty under ISO accreditation to alert the FDA. And so we did.
We filed a report with the FDA that we came across this crazy toxic mercury.
It wasn't from fish.
It wasn't from food.
It was from this guru guy that's running around selling this as a miracle cure in seminars.
And the FDA responded and they said, well, you should give it to this other team.
And we gave it to that team.
We never heard anything more.
They probably didn't do anything with it.
People, we eventually found out that it was, get this, Joel, 800 parts per million mercury.
Wow.
Yeah.
Like, if you swallow this pill, you're doing brain damage.
You're doing serious damage.
And it didn't come from food, it came from some, you know, sales guru person.
Yeah, well, so the snake oil is still with us.
Yeah, except it's, I mean, I wouldn't mind drinking snake oil, but this guy's selling mercury pills, you know?
It's like, wow, that's still here.
You know, one of the other things about wild animals is that They don't see any television ads, and they don't do any screen time, and they're just doing their thing.
They don't have to worry about being sued, about filing government reports.
I mean, you start looking at the human, you know, what occupies our...
Our minds and our time today compared to a possum out there or a rabbit or a deer or a wild pig.
They're just doing their thing, man.
A lot of times when people get toxins, it's something that they've chosen with a sense of gullibility.
For example, in the Latina culture...
In the cosmetics industry in Mexico and Central and South America, it is highly desirable by a lot of Latina women to have their skin appear more white and less brown.
It's a cultural preference because the people with brown skin were those mostly lower income status that worked outside more, whatever.
I'm not judging them.
I'm just saying that they would buy a lot of cosmetics that are skin whitening creams.
Well, guess what whitens skin really effectively?
Mercury.
If you go out and you buy in Mexico skin whitening creams, they will very often contain crazy levels of mercury.
And of course, mercury is associated with mental instability, which is where the term, you know, mad hatter came from because the hat makers would use mercury with the felt to form the brim of the hat.
And that's why the hatters went crazy.
That's where that comes from.
And also in dentistry, of course, if you're drilling mercury fillings all day as a dentist and you're inhaling that.
You're going to go mad at some point.
It's just physics.
It's chemistry.
Well, same thing is true with cosmetics and also in Asia.
A lot of Asian cultures, also the women in particular, want to have whiter skin.
And so you will find in China, you'll find skin creams that are loaded with mercury.
So sometimes people come to me and they're like, oh, I'm so concerned about one part per million of glyphosate in my food, but I can smell on them that they're loaded with fragrance and toxins and laundry detergents and stuff.
I'm like, ah!
Your priorities could use a little reconfiguration.
You're killing yourself every day with what you put on your skin.
Don't worry about one part per billion of this or that.
Change your laundry detergent.
Often that's my message.
If people ask me they want the honest truth, that's what I tell them.
I can smell you from here.
You want my advice?
There it is.
Clean up your...
Your laundry, clean up your personal care products, clean up your shampoo, clean up your deodorants and all that stuff.
You want to be healthy, start with eliminating the poisons that you put on your body every day.
Yeah.
There you go.
Yeah.
And I feel the same way.
And one follow-up to that with, because I know you have this entire company where you have like supplement lines and you guys do testing.
It's third-party testing for glyphosate, heavy metals.
In-house.
We do that in-house.
Yes, in-house.
And so my question is, as I have been perusing the literature for like a decade now, I've stumbled upon a lot of studies that are indicating that there's quite a bit of adulteration in the supplement industry.
For example, there's a 2020...
2023 review that said that 60% of all the elderberry samples that they tested, and there were hundreds of them, 60% were adulterated with things like black rice or purple carrot.
There was another 2023 study that said that almost a third of the hundreds of turmeric samples that they tested contained the Sudan dyes.
Which, you know, are these illegal additives that have been linked with as carcinogens.
And, you know, it's like linked to cancer, for instance.
So I'm finding these things in the literature.
But now you have a lab where you test these things in-house.
So what are you seeing or what have you seen across the supplement industry?
Are you seeing a lot of adulteration?
And did that play a role in why you created this third-party lab?
Yes, there's a lot of adulteration.
Absolutely.
Especially botanical.
That's not why we created our lab, but it is testing that we do and that we are required to do by the FDA. So the FDA is currently cracking down specifically on the performance, libido, and sports supplements categories.
And it's actually in those three categories where you find the most adulteration with illegal pharmaceutical-type molecules or hormones, things like that.
So if you're out there buying, you know, like a get big muscles, you know, supplement, it's probably got illegal molecules in it and, you know, questionable safety.
So that's a high risk category.
And Amazon is cracking down on that.
When you're buying botanical supplements, it's much lower risk of contamination.
But there are species adulterations that are very common.
And this can happen in any area.
There is a company known as Alchemist, A-L-K-E-M-I-S-T, I believe, that we have known and worked with for years for outside botanical reference conformations.
And they use a variety of methods such as high-performance thin film liquid chromatography.
That's one way to do it.
We have mass spec instruments in-house where we can also look for...
Certain biomarkers, such as the curcumin molecule, or if we're testing for cannabinoids, we can look for cannabidiolic acid, CBDA, in a hemp extract, and we can quantitate that.
So there are a number of methods.
There's also microscopy and so on.
That's an ongoing challenge.
And everybody that's in the supplements industry, sooner or later gets burned by a vendor.
100%.
You will find there are companies out there, there are exporters, not only from China, but from Mexico or elsewhere around the world, even from India or even from Turkey.
There are companies that will try to cheat and they'll try to sell you fake stuff.
And if you're not checking for it, you're going to get duped, 100%.
Just to make sure I understand, Mike, as the layman here in this discussion, when you say 100% They're going to be burned by a vendor somewhere.
That is a vendor with a completed product, or is it the unprocessed sourcing, the leaves, the plant material, or is it the actual finished product?
Well, usually I'm referring to raw materials.
Okay, raw materials.
So it's a certain field, it's a certain place.
Well, there are vendors that buy from growers, but then they can adulterate them.
And cut them with ground-up leaves or whatever.
And then they sell that to the manufacturers that then make supplements out of it or make tinctures out of it or do the extracts or make capsules, what have you.
So through this entire chain, what we've learned over all these years is that if there's a supplement manufacturer that is selling supplements on Amazon, until recently, most of them did not do identity testing.
Now, there are companies such as Now.
They're very stringent about their testing.
And I know this because some of the people that have worked in my lab, they also have contacts with the labs of Now Foods.
It used to be called Now Foods.
They do very stringent testing.
I also happen to know, by the way, that Walmart has a massive mass-spec laboratory facility in Arkansas, and they test everything they sell for heavy metals.
Children's clothing, mugs, everything.
Because they don't want a kid to buy a Mickey Mouse shirt and the red paint on the shirt has lead in it because that's happened before.
Or you buy a coffee mug and it's usually the red paint on the coffee mug that's loaded with lead.
And Walmart does not want to get burned by that.
So they actually disassemble bicycles and test bicycles for lead.
Walmart does more heavy metals testing than any retailer in the world, believe it or not.
Wow, that's surprising.
That's amazing because we just had, you're probably familiar with the work of Dan Kittredge at the Bionutrient Food Association, headquartered in Massachusetts.
No, I'm not familiar with him, but go ahead.
So they're using mass spectromity to determine, to measure about 150 nutrient levels in foods, trying to create an actual database that's big enough that it can give you a...
A green light, yellow light, red light on, is this broccoli where it is?
And so they, for example, the first thing they tested was carrots, tested for about 150 nutrients.
They found that you would have to eat almost 100 of the poorest carrots to get the same nutrition as one of the best carrots.
I'm not surprised.
There's that much difference.
So then they tested broccoli.
Then they wanted to make sure this is not an outlier.
So they tested broccoli, found basically the same thing.
So now they're onto their first really serious thing, which is beef.
They're looking at beef.
And interestingly, what they've found in their preliminary studies with the carrots, the broccoli and stuff, is that the foods in...
In Walmart, in those kind of places, actually beat the nutritional value of the foods at Whole Foods.
That's interesting.
In general.
I think they're kind of on the cutting edge of some of this breakthrough testing.
What they're trying to do is create an instrument that you can go and actually, using light frequency, Wand a produce counter and pick the best potato.
Well, that's a very tricky technology to get quantitation data from a spectroscopy type of approach.
That typically tells you it's a glimpse of identity, but not typically the quantitation.
But what you said is really, it's great to hear that.
It's really fascinating to me because food, you can find a chart from the USDA of what's in green beans.
Yeah, you should throw it away because it doesn't tell you anything about your green beans that you got at the farmer's market or that you grew.
Because your green beans can have, like you said, a hundred to one variability.
And there's also, of course, seasonal variability.
There's weather variability.
You know, temperature, humidity, and acidity of soils drastically affects nutrient uptake and nutrient synthesis.
There was one time, for example...
Like, we sell freeze-dried broccoli in number 10 cans.
And one of the reasons I love broccoli is because it has sulforaphane in it, which is a neuroprotective phytonutrient that's synthesized by broccoli plants.
Well, we received this shipment from this vendor, and we're like, wait a minute, this is nothing but broccoli stalks.
Where are the florets?
And they said, well, there's been a shortage and all we have is stalks.
It's still broccoli.
And I'm like, well, now wait a second.
Because what I want are the florets.
I mean, I want the whole broccoli because that's where the nutrients are in the florets, right?
I don't want, you just sold me broccoli stalks.
I can't go to my audience and say, hey, buy a bunch of broccoli stalks.
It's still broccoli.
It's like, that doesn't fly.
Can you imagine going to the store to buy a sweet corn and all they have in there are corn stalks?
Yeah, right.
It's corn.
Or it's cobs.
Like, oh, okay, whatever.
So there's all kinds of things that are happening like that in the supply chain.
And if you don't think about these issues, like where is the nutrition?
You're going to get burned again and again and again.
Like what you do on your farm, Joel, I know you're always thinking about where does the nutrition actually come from?
What are the inputs that create this?
And that's how you produce a superior product.
But for somebody who just doesn't care or doesn't know about nutrition and doesn't know about minerals and how plants produce nutrients and so on, they're clueless.
Or somebody that's just trying to produce volume.
Exactly.
That's what our culture, our agriculture in the U.S. really doesn't ask about nutrition.
It just asks how many pounds.
It's all about the production numbers.
Fill the boxes.
Yeah.
So I may have got this stat wrong, but I think I read in one of your newsletters that you reject about 80% of the raw ingredients coming into your facility.
Is that true?
For certain materials, yes, like turmeric is a great example of that.
And so did you know that in the EU there are very, very strict limits on heavy metals in root vegetables or root spices like turmeric?
But in the U.S., there are no legal limits on heavy metals in turmeric.
And so what happens is international producers from China or India or Mexico or wherever, or Thailand often, a lot of turmeric comes out of Thailand, they produce turmeric.
They can do an initial assessment themselves.
If it's heavily contaminated, they sell it to America.
If it's clean, they sell it to the EU or Canada or Japan where the rules are more strict.
So what happens is the United States becomes this dumping ground of the most contaminated foods that are grown in other countries.
And that's because the FDA and the USDA don't have limits on heavy metals.
That's why.
I mean, you read the rules in the EU. They are very strict and they're broken down by type of food.
Like green beans can only have this much.
Potatoes can only have this much.
Or milk.
It is very strict.
But our own internal requirements are more strict than the EU, by the way.
But there are some people who conflate this with, what is it in California?
Is it Prop 65 that was really a water law?
That has very, very strict limitations on lead, but it's been misapplied to foods.
And there have been a lot of lawsuits in California, and you can get fined as a supplement provider if you have more than, I think, 0.5 micrograms of lead intake per day based on the serving size on your supplement label.
And so California misapplied a water rule.
To food and supplements to just try to extract money from a lot of supplement providers.
That's been a big scam for years out of California.
But the reason that limit was put on water is because people consume a lot more water than they eat turmeric.
You know, so 0.5 micrograms of lead per day in the water supply makes a lot of sense.
But it's not realistic in certain types of foods like spices.
So if you sell spices, you know, like cinnamon always has lead in it.
You can't get cinnamon without lead at some level.
Does it mean you should stop eating cinnamon?
No.
Cinnamon's awesome.
Cinnamon's great for blood sugar control and neuroprotective.
It's part of Chinese medicine, too.
Cinnamon's awesome.
I'm not going to stop eating cinnamon, but I don't eat gallons of cinnamon.
It's wild.
That's pretty crazy.
I know we're about out of time, but...
I know you have something special that you wanted to announce that's coming out pretty soon.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I forgot.
So we are building the world's best open-source, free, downloadable AI language model on herbs, nutrition, permaculture, off-grid living, sustainability, natural medicine, alternative medicine, you name it.
And it's currently codenamed Enoch, which refers to one of the lost scriptures.
Hidden knowledge is what that's all about.
And it's being released for free March 1st on brighteon.ai.
Now, we did release some language models last year that were so-so.
But since then, we've curated the largest collection of knowledge on all these subjects, nutrition, herbs, you name it.
And then we've been able to, well, spend a lot of money and build this into a...
A language model that's being released for free to the public.
So you'll be able to download that, run it for free on your local computer.
It doesn't operate in the cloud.
You don't need to pay anything.
There's no advertising.
It's non-commercial, free to use.
Just go to brighttown.ai and sign up with your email address there and we'll alert you when it's ready.
Wow, that's incredible.
I mean, that's really a gift that you're giving to our society, especially in a time when many of us, including Joel and I, are being censored.
So we're having a hard time getting this great information out there.
So I really applaud you for the time, the effort, the thought that went into this, and the fact that you're handing it to us for free.
That's incredible.
Well, thank you for recognizing that.
And let me just say, I mean, yes, this is...
I think this is the most important thing I've ever done in my lifetime to give this tool to humanity.
But let me just state quickly a couple of things that people can do with it.
So once you have this model running on your local computer, you can type in the ingredients from a food product that you just bought.
And you can ask the model, tell me about each of these ingredients.
Which ones are beneficial?
Which ones are harmful?
And it'll give you a full report on all the ingredients.
You can even ask it.
You can use it as a wellness coach.
You can ask it questions like, how can I improve my intake of zinc?
How can I grow foods better?
What kind of soils are best for blueberries?
What are the safest places to get food?
Or you can even ask it, how do I connect solar panels to an inverter or a charger?
And it'll give you advice on that.
And plus, natural medicine.
Tell me about sound healing.
Tell me about nutrition.
Tell me about...
Infrared light therapy.
How does that work?
It's a massive knowledge base.
It's kind of the Noah's Ark of information that's being censored.
And this is the kind of thing that we need as humanity to be able to rebuild our civilization with knowledge that's being, frankly, it's being wiped off.
Of Google and Facebook and YouTube, they're banning everything that we need because they just want to favor all the big corporate interests.
They don't want humans to have the knowledge that got us to this point.
And it's trained on a lot of Native American herbal knowledge, traditional Chinese medicine knowledge, Amazonian medicine, Tibetan medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, every system of medicine around the world it's trained on as well.
Wow, that's incredible.
And what a great way, because Joel and I have talked about this before, where, like you said, they're trying to get rid of all this knowledge, one way or the other.
And so we may have to go back to us educating ourselves and passing down this knowledge through oral tradition.
And so this would be fantastic to use this device that you've created, this platform, to educate ourselves so we can continue passing on this great wisdom that's long been forgotten.
It's designed to even function.
If we lose the entire internet and if the power grid goes down, but if you have a laptop computer and a solar panel and you can boot up that laptop, you can ask it anything you want and it'll have all this knowledge built in.
So it's decentralization.
I believe in decentralizing the food supply, decentralizing medicine, decentralizing knowledge.
And this is how we're working to achieve that.
That's great.
Like I said, Joel, our third P in the pod.
What a wonderful Interview and just a great way to think about this first year and the opportunities that are coming down.
It's just wonderful.
So at the end of our podcast, we always ask our audience a question, and usually Sina lets me come up with it.
So my question is, have you ever had a complete blood analysis done at an alternative lab, not the hospital, but some sort of this, you know, a quack lab, okay?
Have you ever had a complete blood analysis done at a quack lab?
And if you have, what was your biggest surprise?
No, I have not, but the closest I've come to that is what I mentioned earlier when I tested my own hair and found that my hair was more contaminated than rabbit hair.
That's pretty phenomenal.
Yeah.
Well, I'm sure folks in our audience have had some of these alternative lab blood samples done, you know, like a complete spectrum.
And, you know, a lot of times they do present some surprises, both positive and negative.
A lot of times, I mean, I think one of the takeaways from this conversation is some of the things we're most worried about we shouldn't be.
And some of the things we're not worried about, we probably should be.
And so those kinds of analyses and lab work can help us to figure out which ones merit our concern and which ones don't.
Can I add something along those lines here before we close this out?
This will prevent people from living in fear or panic about these findings.
The thing to watch out for, the big red flag, is when somebody says that this food tested positive.
For a heavy metal.
That language is meaningless.
It doesn't mean anything other than one atom of a metal was found in it.
Or if they say, well, we tested this food.
It tested positive for glyphosate.
It doesn't mean anything.
As a food scientist, I would say that that means zero.
Because it's the quantity that matters or the concentration that matters.
We are all eating some amount of mercury, lead, cadmium, arsenic.
Whatever, every day, all the time.
You're eating some level of glyphosate.
Is it toxic at parts per trillion or femtograms?
No, no, not at all.
You'll do more damage over the stress of it than the substance itself.
Yeah, yeah.
Wow, that's word to the wise.
Word to the wise.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being with us, Mike.
We look forward to more communiques in the future.
And blessings on you and your work.
Thank you so much for being such a leader in this space.
We really appreciate it.
Blessings to both of you.
It's been a real pleasure to be able to speak with you.
And I'd love to join you again.
Love the work that both of you are doing.
Thank you so much.
Blessings to you all.
Thank you all for joining us on another Beyond Labels.
And we look forward to being with you again next week.
All right, really great news.
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Yay!
Those have been out of stock for six months.
You know why?
Because we kept finding high cadmium levels in the cacao nibs.
That's why cadmium, a toxic heavy metal, it's really common in cadmium.
Sometimes it's found in coffee.
You can find heavy metals in all kinds, like lead and turmeric and lead and moringa herb and things like that.
Well, we do extensive testing, so sometimes we're out of stock because it's not clean.
That's just the way it goes.
But now we've got clean, laboratory-tested cacao nibs back in stock.
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I've got a few on my desk now.
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We really appreciate your support.
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