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Dec. 2, 2024 - Health Ranger - Mike Adams

01:19:33

Free Roger Ver Bitcoin Jesus - an interview with Tracy Thurman

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	Welcome to today's interview here on brighteon.com and you're going to love this interview because we're all about freedom and liberty and our guest today Tracy Thurman here in studio and thank you for joining me Tracy.
	Pleasure to have you here.
	My pleasure.
	Is helping to spread the word about a man who is being just persecuted by the United States government.
	This man is named Roger Veer and he's an advocate of freedom and cryptocurrency and he has been relentlessly pursued by the government.
	He's being extradited to face charges in the US that are drummed up charges facing 109 years in prison and he's done nothing wrong.
	So what's the story behind this and how can we help free this man Roger Veer who has done so much for humanity more than we can even talk about here.
	So joining us to talk about that is Tracy Thurman.
	Welcome Tracy.
	Such a pleasure to be here Mike.
	Well, I'm so happy to have you here.
	Thanks for traveling.
	Thanks for being here.
	Let's give out your Twitter handle first for everybody.
	Sure.
	On X, I am Tracy A. Thurman.
	I am new to X, but not to the fight.
	So it's a small account at this point.
	Here it is.
	Tracy A. Thurman.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	Well, we'll get you some more followers here.
	So you have a lot of interesting knowledge.
	I saw an interview of you with Chris Martinson that I encourage people to watch.
	But start from the beginning with us, please.
	Walk us through this.
	Who is Roger Veer?
	And why are you trying to spread the news about how he's being wrongfully persecuted?
	It's a great question.
	So most people, if you're not in the cryptocurrency space, have no idea who Roger Ver is.
	And yet he's someone, all of us, who care about freedom, who care about medical freedom, who care about anti-censorship, who care about the anti-lockdown movement.
	All of us should know who he is.
	And the reason we should know who he is is that he is one of the quiet people who has been behind our movements for a very long time.
	The anti-war movement, too.
	Okay, wow.
	So you're nailing all the right messages in my mind.
	Like, I don't want war.
	I support cryptocurrency.
	I want decentralized monetary systems.
	I know the dollar is going to collapse.
	I don't want to live under tyranny.
	I want health freedom.
	I want to drink raw milk.
	You know, all these things.
	I don't want to be forced to take jabs.
	All that stuff, right?
	Yes.
	So this resonates with you and Roger both.
	It does.
	It does.
	I have been aware of Roger's work since about 2014. And after he was indicted earlier this year by the US government on provably false charges, which we can get into later, it was so concerning to me.
	At that point, from a philosophical point of view, an ideological point of view, but also the point of view of the legal precedent that was going to be set, that I decided I had to get involved, I had to speak out, and I had to try to do something to prevent this complete and utter miscarriage of justice from continuing.
	Okay, wow.
	So, I mean, I have to ask the obvious question.
	Are you hired to do this?
	How are you funding this effort?
	I do what I'm asked to do by the universe, I guess is one way to put it.
	I believe very strongly in this and I'm just making sure that it gets done.
	I want nothing more than to see this man freed.
	So you just made this your mission or you're called upon to help free this man who has been wrongfully persecuted, whose work is very important to humanity in ways that you're going to talk about.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Makes sense to me.
	I mean, that's why I'm here too, based on passion.
	There are a lot of easier ways to make money in this world than actually being a truth teller and being censored and smeared everywhere.
	This is true.
	This is true.
	There's a lot more money in making money, but there's a lot more fulfillment in telling the truth.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah.
	If we were only about profit, we would launch vaccines.
	Or homogenized milk or whatever.
	Yes, exactly.
	But that's not what we're doing.
	Okay, so Roger Ver, let's start with the beginning here.
	What is he being charged with?
	What does the government allege that he did?
	And I think he's currently in Spain.
	Is that correct?
	Yes, he is in Spain awaiting extradition to the U.S. to face 109 years in prison for supposed tax evasion.
	Tax evasion.
	Correct.
	At this point, anyone who's at all aware of the law fair playbook should recognize this at this point.
	How many of our heroes have been facing tax evasion charges?
	It's very much a show-me-the-man-I'll-find-you-the-crime situation.
	Right, right.
	Now, of course, Trump himself underwent tremendous lawfare, and the charges, the criminal charges against Trump were just dropped recently.
	So that whole thing went away, proving it was all trumped up, right?
	Right.
	And lawfare has been committed against Alex Jones and Infowars, just vicious, vicious lawfare.
	They're trying to take his name and his social media accounts.
	It's utterly wild.
	And I've been saying, others have been saying, if you do not pay attention to what's happening to Alex Jones, if they finish this job with Alex, they're coming for the rest of you.
	Too many people didn't listen.
	That's right.
	What did they do?
	They took the Alex Jones playbook and they used it against President Trump.
	Then people woke up.
	But it's the same here with Roger.
	If they succeed in doing this, what they're doing to Roger, they're coming for everybody in cryptocurrency.
	They're coming for anybody who's ever relied on an attorney for counsel.
	And they're coming for anybody who believes that has ever told their attorney anything they don't want the government to know because they're trying to decimate attorney-client privilege with this case.
	That's critical.
	It is.
	Anyone...
	Anyone of any means whatsoever depends on an accountant, depends on an attorney.
	Right.
	Because you can't memorize the tax code.
	No, it's 70,000 pages.
	How on earth are you and I supposed to memorize that?
	So let's get back to the facts of the case, but I will say, we've also been targeted.
	We've had regulators dispatched to target us.
	They have failed, but it has taken considerable expense on our part to defend ourselves against the cost and time and effort and, you know, being terrorized.
	They are terrorists, okay?
	You know this.
	What the DOJ can do...
	I've seen it in the raw milk world, for sure, which we do a lot of work in.
	Absolutely.
	They're terrorists against Amos Miller.
	So...
	What I understand, but you can walk us through this, so Roger was leaving the country, giving up his American citizenship, and was he trying to figure out how much tax he should pay on gains before he left the country or something like that?
	Yeah, so to tell this story, we really have to back up all the way to the year 2000. And understand that Roger has been the victim of U.S. lawfare for 24 years now.
	Wow.
	And was it all related to cryptocurrency or was it the ATF stuff?
	This is pre-Bitcoin.
	This is pre-cryptocurrency even existing.
	Oh, that's true.
	Yeah.
	So in the year 2000, he was 21 years old and he decided to run for office as a libertarian in California.
	And during a debate with the Republican and the Democratic candidate, he talked at length, very sincerely, about his beliefs that taxation is theft.
	Taxation is theft.
	That the ATF is a criminal organization of murderous jackbooted thugs.
	Those were the words that he used.
	I believe so.
	And he talked about what had happened in Waco, Texas.
	We know about Waco, yeah.
	Anyone with any conscience, anyone with any compassion, anyone with any humanity whatsoever cannot look at those photos of agents standing over the bodies of charred, incinerated, contorted children and see anything other than murderous, jackbooted thugs.
	Well, and then there's the helicopter flare footage, too.
	Exactly.
	That shows exactly what they did.
	People trying to surrender, running out, being shot down.
	That's right.
	Yes.
	And that story has never been fully told in America.
	It has not.
	It has not.
	I'm shocked how many Americans have no idea what happened at Waco.
	Well, they don't have any idea what happened in 9-11 either, by the way, but that's a different podcast.
	Yeah.
	But back to Roger.
	So he said in a debate how much he hates the ATF. He told the truth about them.
	He talked about what they did in Waco, Texas, and he said what he thought of them.
	And from that moment on, he had a mark on his back.
	So they tried to find a way to get them.
	Correct.
	They used the Stalinist tactic, the old tried and true, show me the men, I'll find you the crime.
	And it turned out that Roger was one of hundreds of people selling fireworks from a company that made basically fireworks or explosive devices under the agricultural exception.
	So there's an allowable amount, and you probably know this, there's an allowable amount of explosives that can be in fireworks, but there is a carve-out for agricultural ones that are used for pest control.
	No, I don't know this, but this is fascinating.
	I should know this.
	Pest control?
	I'm going to blow up these rats?
	Yeah, basically.
	But if you're an enemy of the government, I recommend you don't buy and sell those.
	No, no.
	Even though they are apparently legal under this carve-out.
	So he was involved in that?
	It was classic retail arbitrage.
	He was buying them from the Cabela's catalog.
	Cabela's?
	Cabela's catalog, and then he was reselling them on eBay at a markup.
	Many, many other people were doing this.
	Cabela's didn't have a license.
	He didn't have a license.
	Nobody had a license.
	Not one person doing this had a license or knew that the ATF would take the position that they needed the license.
	Okay, wait a second.
	So I know that on Amazon I can buy, like, flares, which are kind of fireworks, flares for getting rid of rats and mice and things like that.
	And I can go to any fireworks stand around Texas and I can buy smoke bombs and firecrackers and rockets and all kinds of things, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	So, and Cabela's was selling this stuff.
	Cabela's was selling this.
	If Cabela's was selling them, why would you think you needed a special license to do something Cabela's was doing without a license?
	I don't know.
	So Roger didn't have a license.
	Correct.
	And he was selling this on eBay.
	And he was selling them on eBay like many, many other people were.
	Okay, so normally, if you were caught doing that without a license, you would be fined.
	Correct.
	Fined or told that you needed to get a license.
	Instead, they decided to charge him with it.
	Did they charge everybody who was doing this?
	No.
	Of course not.
	Did they charge Cabela's?
	Were anyone involved with Cabela's?
	Of course not.
	So they charged him with what?
	They charged one man and one man only.
	I believe it was essentially selling explosives without a license.
	Okay.
	And if there's any doubt in anyone's mind that this was a political prosecution, it can be set aside when you consider that in a meeting between Roger, Roger's attorney, the prosecutor, and the ATF, Roger's attorney was saying exactly what you just said to the prosecutor and said, look, the normal solution for this is maybe a fine, tell the guy to go get a license, tell him to stop selling them, whatever, but it's not pursuing jail time.
	And the ATF's agent's response was to pound his fist on the table and say, You didn't hear what he said.
	So it was about retribution for his speech?
	It was 100% about retribution.
	If there was any doubt, that meeting cleared it up.
	Well, has the ATF looked at Twitter lately?
	Because everybody's calling them jackbooted thoughts.
	Like the arm brace rule, that was nonsense.
	The bump stock ban, that was all nonsense.
	That's been overturned, of course.
	Hey, thank God for the Fifth Circuit Court of Texas, let me tell you.
	Yes.
	Thank God for the Firearms Policy Coalition, you know, I'm saying.
	But...
	The ATF is widely hated by a lot of people, but you're talking about many years ago.
	This is many years ago.
	This is only a few years after there was the initial attempt to pass the domestic version of the Patriot Act.
	This is not that long.
	This is only...
	Half a decade.
	This is about almost just slightly longer than COVID's length time ago since Oklahoma City and Waco.
	So this was still much fresher in the national mind than it is today.
	And so I think it was particularly threatening to the powers that be.
	It was incendiary, to use an explosive term.
	Okay, that's interesting because today, you know, like AR-15s are far more popular today than they ever were in the early 2000s.
	We had that 1994 assault weapons ban that lasted until 2004, I believe.
	I remember how hard it was to get ARs.
	I had to buy pre-ban ARs at that time to keep them legal because I'm kind of meticulous about making sure all my stuff's legal.
	You know, like I don't have full auto triggers.
	I don't want to give them an excuse, you know.
	Exactly.
	I keep it like really super legal.
	Yeah, if you're going to fight for freedom, you've got to be very, very careful.
	Yes.
	But, okay, so in today's context, what Roger was doing in the early 2000s is like, who cares?
	But back then, it was considered a very big deal.
	Oh, and remember, at that point, eBay had a guns and ammo section, right?
	eBay had a guns and ammo section.
	I love that.
	Back in those days of freedom that some of us vaguely remember.
	Right.
	But yeah, eBay had a guns and ammo section on which he sold fireworks.
	Okay.
	Like, if that doesn't...
	This should have been a nothing burger to anyone other than the ATF going after their political enemy.
	Okay.
	So what happened with that case?
	He was charged.
	He was charged.
	He was convinced to plead guilty and he was sent to federal prison for 10 months.
	Jeez.
	Now...
	10 months?
	10 months.
	And...
	Ten months will sound short to anyone who hasn't sat in a cage, but imagine anyone here who's seen a dog kennel, anyone here where you have chain-link fence 10 feet by 8 feet.
	Imagine being in that cage for 10 months as a human being.
	It's insane.
	That's a very harsh situation.
	And surrounded by extremely dangerous people.
	And I don't just mean the inmates.
	The people to whom the job...
	There are some very conscientious, great people as prison guards.
	There's also some awful people in that role.
	And in my work, I've spent a lot of time working with inmates.
	I've spent a lot of time inside prisons.
	They are horrific, dangerous, soul-crushing places that I would never want to send anyone to.
	Prison reform doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what needs to happen in this country.
	No, it doesn't.
	There's a whole industry of prisoners and prison labor to benefit certain corporations that have kickbacks to the judges that convict people.
	Pennsylvania had kids for cash, right?
	Where they were intentionally sentencing kids.
	It's insane.
	One kid threw a pencil at another kid, sentenced a juvenile, and it turns out the judges were getting financial kickbacks.
	Yeah.
	Yes, exactly.
	You know, go ahead and look that up to anyone who hasn't heard this story.
	But if you think our, you know, to anyone who thinks our system is a just system, I hope we're past that point with most anyone.
	Oh God, yeah.
	But we do not have a just system.
	And so he was thrown into this prison for 10 months.
	And there's a video on his personal website, rogervere.com, that I recommend people go and watch.
	And it's one that he made in support of Ross Ulbricht.
	But he talks about being tortured in federal prison.
	I'm going to bring up his site, rogerveer.com.
	And veer is spelled V-E-R. Correct.
	Here it is, rogerveer.com.
	Free Roger Veer, a crypto pioneer deserving justice.
	Also, you mentioned this other site here, Free Roger.
	Yes.
	Anyone who wants to support Roger, please go to freerogernow.org.
	Got it.
	And sign the open letter there.
	We are asking the president to give us a preemptive pardon because given the history of lawfare against Roger, given the history of the government's animosity toward Roger, he's not likely to get a fair shake unless we can get him a pardon.
	He's going to die in prison if we don't get him a pardon.
	Well, and plus, and we're going to talk about the current charges against Roger, which has nothing to do with fireworks, but Trump is pro-crypto, clearly.
	I mean, he spoke at the Bitcoin conference.
	He's even talking about a Bitcoin reserve fund, I think, for the federal government, which is interesting.
	I think that Trump...
	In order, like, Roger Ver is a hero in the crypto community.
	Yes.
	If Trump doesn't look at this part and at least just give it consideration and learn the facts, along with pardoning some of the J6 political prisoners, Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, dare I say, and Ulbricht, as you mentioned.
	Yes, Ross Ulbricht.
	These people all need to be pardoned for Trump to keep his covenant with the people, the people that voted him into power that want to push back against this lawfare, this deep state system that is malicious and selective in their persecutions of people, right?
	Yes, exactly.
	Yeah, and so...
	So talk about the charges against Roger.
	Yeah, so going back to, you know, Roger gets out of prison.
	And, you know, when I said he talks about in this video about being tortured...
	He was tortured.
	I'll give you an example.
	So, you know, when you're first put in there, you're put in what's called the SHU, the special housing unit, until they assess your security level.
	And then you're sent to, you know, they issue you your clothing, you know, your used clothing, your used boots for the first time.
	And at that point, he was sent to what was called the counselor's office, which is just a fancy name for another prison guard who's going to process you in some other way.
	I heard you tell this story with Lawrence.
	It's crazy.
	Yeah.
	So he's told specifically, go into this office.
	And in the office are two men, two officers.
	So he walks into the office as he's told.
	And as soon as he does, one of the officers says, you know, stop, stop.
	What are you doing?
	Stop.
	You know, you can't come in here just like that.
	I need to search you.
	Okay.
	So Roger stops and the man goes to search him.
	And Roger thinks he sees something in the man's hand.
	But what's he going to do about it?
	Think of the power dynamic of it.
	Of course.
	Anyone who doesn't understand the prison dynamic, the guards are God.
	You are nothing.
	They control your life.
	You control nothing.
	So all he can do is just stand there and allow himself to be searched.
	He thinks he's seen something in his hand, and as the guard goes down to his boot, the guard pulls a magic trick and pulls a shank out of Roger's boot, a shank being a sharpened piece of metal you could use to stab someone.
	Right.
	Right.
	And now he's screaming in Roger's face, you know, you could have hurt someone with this.
	You could have killed me with this.
	You're going to go away for two more years for this.
	And imagine what it takes.
	Imagine just for a moment, close your eyes and think about what it takes to accept that you're going to spend 10 months in a cage.
	Away from your family.
	And then add two years for something that you didn't do.
	And so he broke down.
	He started crying because how could you not in that moment?
	How could you not?
	Anyone other than a psychopath in that moment would.
	And after he's cried a while, the guy pats him on the shoulder and says, I'm just kidding.
	Wow.
	Torture.
	That's psychological torture.
	Absolutely, yeah.
	And this type of thing happens in U.S. prisons all the time.
	But that is pure torture.
	And when you go through something like that, the minute you become free, you are never going to trust that government again.
	Right.
	It's very – so it was very clear to Roger that he could not trust the U.S. government, that the U.S. government had it out for him.
	Right.
	And that the only way he could possibly be safe was to leave this country.
	Well, that's a reasonable conclusion.
	Yeah.
	And so the very first day he was legally allowed to leave the country, he did.
	And he's never lived in the U.S. since then.
	And as an American, this should horrify us.
	We're chasing out some of our best and our brightest because our government is that tyrannical.
	Well, they clearly are that tyrannical.
	Yes, they are.
	Yeah, I mean, and I think a lot of the vote for Trump was a hope that maybe some of the tyranny would go away.
	And we're going to have to wait and see.
	But as I've said, I've said, you know, you're changing the people who run the beast.
	Right.
	But you haven't dismantled the beast.
	Right.
	The beast is still there.
	Until we dismantle the beast, we still have a beast.
	That's right.
	And this is why I agree with the libertarians.
	It's like the only safe government is non-existent government, really.
	Anytime you give this other group authority over your life, they're going to abuse it.
	And the people who are attracted to power...
	They're the worst.
	They're the psychopaths.
	They're the people who are attracted to power.
	Yep.
	You and I, I'm assuming you're like me, Mike.
	I have no desire to have power over other people.
	Yeah, I don't want to run a bunch of people.
	No.
	I'm perfectly capable of running my own life, but that's about it.
	The idea, the arrogance of thinking that I would be qualified to tell you how to live your life.
	Right.
	But that's who's attracted to government.
	And so Roger concluded he could not trust our government and he had to leave.
	Well, clearly.
	And so he left, he moved to Japan, and he began to seek citizenship in another country because in order to be protected, he needed to belong somewhere else.
	Yes.
	And so it took him a few years.
	So he wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship.
	He wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship and belong to another country.
	But that is a taxable event?
	Yes.
	It is.
	So in 20...
	Of course it is.
	Of course it is.
	Should it be constitutionally?
	Absolutely not.
	If you fly to the moon and die on the moon, you have to pay taxes on Earth, by the way, if you're a U.S. citizen.
	Yeah, I mean, it's called the golden handcuffs.
	Right.
	To my mind, it's a completely unconstitutional tax.
	It violates the apportionment clause where any tax on property must be equally apportioned between all states.
	And I realize that's legalese, but it's important legalese.
	It's how our founders set it up.
	And they set it up that way to make it very difficult to do.
	The tax on expatriation, the exit tax, is an unapportioned, unconstitutional property tax that I hope at some point the Supreme Court will address.
	Okay, okay.
	Now, educate me about this because I've never tried to give up my citizenship.
	So what are you taxed on?
	Like all your property?
	If you are worth more than $2 million, you have to conduct something called a constructive hypothetical sale, which means you have to pretend you sold every single thing you have the day before you gave up your citizenship, and then you have to pay capital gains taxes on that.
	No.
	Yes.
	So it's an unrealized gains tax.
	Yes, exactly.
	You're kidding me.
	Someone who understands unrealized gains, it's great to talk to you.
	Oh my goodness.
	Because you can see how dangerous this is.
	Absolutely.
	So he has, every American who's been hearing Kamala Harris' plans for an unrealized gains tax and recognizes how dangerous it is, understand Roger Ver is facing 109 years in prison.
	For not paying it properly to their standards.
	But he has already paid.
	But he tried to pay it properly.
	He tried.
	So wait, wait.
	Some of his property included crypto, I imagine.
	Yeah, so for that we really got to back up now to 2011. So the white paper for Bitcoin, December 2008. Yeah.
	It launched in 2009. And in 2011, for the very first time, Roger hears Bitcoin.
	Uh-huh.
	And he's fascinated by it.
	From what I've heard, he basically stayed up straight for days on end to the point of reaching like hospital, you know, having to be hospitalized for exhaustion because he was so fascinated by this idea.
	And any of us who are like, you know, passionate mission driven people can.
	What does mining even mean?
	Like, this sounds like a fad, you know?
	Right.
	In 2012, right?
	Yeah, so there were very few who had the vision to see it at that point, but he immediately saw it because in prison, he learned what money really is.
	Money isn't dollar bills.
	Money is anything that you can exchange for other items of value.
	True.
	Because in prison, there isn't money, but there are cigarettes.
	Right.
	Right.
	There's other things you're not supposed to have.
	But there are things you can trade as value.
	He's been fascinated with economics since he was a teenager.
	And he was very skeptical of the fiat system.
	Well, rightly so.
	We're being looted every day that they print money.
	Not only is taxation theft, but money printing is theft.
	Inflation is theft.
	Inflation is theft out of each of our pockets every single day.
	And as I've said, one of the best properties of Bitcoin is the fact that no government can counterfeit it.
	Exactly.
	And so he was the very first investor in Bitcoin.
	Was he?
	Correct.
	What do you mean investor?
	He just bought a lot of Bitcoin?
	What I mean, he owned a few companies and he began to buy Bitcoin in huge amounts.
	Like when it was a fraction of a penny per Bitcoin?
	Yeah.
	Under a dollar, I think, is when he was first buying.
	Wow.
	And then he was...
	Much more importantly, set up his companies to accept Bitcoin as payment.
	Oh, that was difficult then.
	Yes, and it was a revolutionary act at that time, and it was because he was so passionate about seeing the world accept a permissionless, peer-to-peer financial system because he already saw what the rest of us have only woken up to more recently, the shackles that are our financial system, that are, you know...
	We're being caged inside a CBDC universe at this point.
	Absolutely.
	One where we won't be able to do anything without the government giving us permission to do so, where our wallets can be turned off.
	People are being debanked left, right, and center.
	I know many people have been debanked.
	I'm sure you do.
	So for your listeners, if you don't know anyone who's been debanked yet, give it time.
	You need to expand your circle of friends to more interesting people.
	All the right interesting people will be debanked.
	Correct.
	And so Roger already, as a visionary, saw that years ago.
	He saw that that would be coming.
	He knew this was a possibility.
	And so he wanted to spread a system of freedom, a system of financial freedom to the world.
	And he was one of the few people in a position to do so and willing to do so.
	And so he would go into barbershops.
	He would go into restaurants.
	He would order food, and then he would say, I want to pay you in Bitcoin.
	And he would help them set up a Bitcoin wallet, and he would teach them how it worked.
	He would walk up to random people, anyone on the street, talk to them about Bitcoin, help them set up a wallet, give them some Bitcoin, $10 worth.
	And if you were given $10 worth of Bitcoin in 2011.
	Oh my goodness.
	You're wealthy today.
	You're wealthy today.
	So there are many, many people who are wealthy today because of him.
	And so he became nicknamed Bitcoin Jesus.
	Oh, that's right.
	That's where the name came from, Bitcoin Jesus.
	Because he was the biggest evangelist for permissionless free money.
	All right, but let me ask you this.
	When he's giving up his U.S. citizenship and he's talking with his attorneys and trying to figure out how much he owes on the gain of Bitcoin...
	He didn't have to admit how much Bitcoin he held because who knew, right?
	But it sounds like he went out of his way to say, I hold this much Bitcoin and the gains would be like insane.
	Yeah, so this is where it gets interesting because, so, you know, of course, if he started investing in 2011, by 2014, the worth of a Bitcoin had gone up significantly and obviously he was going to be past that $2 million threshold.
	Right.
	And so we know what he and his lawyers said to each other.
	Just to be clear, everything I say here is part of the record because in 2017, the IRS raided his attorney's office, interrogated his attorneys, and took reams of documents.
	That's...
	Way outside the bounds.
	It's way outside the bounds.
	And they took this and then they used it against Roger.
	And in the indictment, they carefully chose a sentence here, a sentence there, everything out of context to paint a picture, a completely inaccurate picture of a man attempting to hide what he had and not showing it to his attorneys because they wanted to obviously be able to imprison him.
	And so the motion to dismiss is being filed shortly.
	And this motion to dismiss contains the actual emails in their entirety.
	And what does it show?
	It shows a man who is doing everything he possibly can to comply.
	A man who has told his attorneys everything.
	He literally says, I know I'm going to be audited.
	This has to be done perfectly.
	I want this to be done extremely cleanly.
	I do not want us to be in a position where...
	Where there can be any trouble down the road because I know the IRS has it out for me.
	Did the IRS include any of that in the indictment?
	Of course not.
	No.
	And so he was fully transparent with his attorneys.
	He told them everything.
	Now, this is what it comes down to.
	Remember that the rule is you have to do, if you had attempted to sell everything you own the day before you leave the country, before you give up your citizenship, What would it be worth?
	Okay.
	The trading volume of Bitcoin for the entire globe at that point was about $10 million a day.
	Whoa.
	So how could you...
	He couldn't have sold into that liquidity.
	Thank you.
	You're savvy enough to understand that.
	If that's the global trading volume, how could you sell many times that and have it be worth what the supposed market value was on that day?
	Anyone with an IQ over 70 can understand that the minute you dump...
	All of that on the market, it goes down.
	If 90% of the people in the United States decided to sell their houses tomorrow, do you think you would be getting what it says on Zillow?
	No, I mean, and the way Bitcoin bidding works is there are like a zillion buy offers at lower and lower prices.
	So when you start selling into that, you start triggering all the buys and the price just keeps plummeting.
	So if he had attempted to sell everything he owned past a certain amount, it would have been utterly worthless.
	And so selling $10,000, selling $20,000, selling $50,000 would have been the same thing.
	Okay.
	You would have got the same price.
	And it's very important to remember here that Roger is not the one who came to this conclusion.
	His attorneys.
	His attorneys came to this conclusion.
	He hired the best firm in the entire country, as far as he knew, to handle this for his expatriation.
	So they did arrive at some value.
	They arrived at a value, and he followed their instructions to a T. He was fully transparent with them.
	They were the ones who concluded, look, it's impossible for you to have sold everything at market value because you would have crashed the market.
	But the IRS didn't like the value.
	They didn't like the value, but here's the strange thing.
	This sounds like the New York case against Trump, where they didn't like his valuation of Mar-a-Lago.
	And this is why Trump should care about this.
	This is no different than Trump's Mar-a-Lago case.
	This isn't different at all.
	You couldn't be more similar than this.
	This is, we don't like your answer, and we don't like you.
	Therefore, we're going to charge you criminally.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	This is, you know, show me the man, I'll find you the crime.
	And it's as ludicrous as a Mar-a-Lago valuation.
	And so...
	You'd think if the IRS was acting in good faith, they would come back and say, I know, you laugh at the IRS acting in good faith.
	But you'd think they would come back and say, this is what you actually owe.
	You'd think they would at least offer a civil settlement, which is what they offer to pretty much everybody else who isn't an enemy of the state.
	Right.
	Plus interest.
	Exactly, right?
	Roger or penalties, all of that, fine.
	And interest on the penalties.
	Don't forget about the compounding interest on the penalties.
	You would think that's what they would do, and yet Roger and his attorneys have been in good faith interacting with the IRS constantly since that day.
	And not once has the IRS given them a number of what they think he actually owes.
	His attorneys have filed a FOIA request attempting to get that information out of the IRS, and they haven't even got a response.
	Now, the tax courts are just completely perverted courts, by the way.
	You know, the judges are obviously in with the IRS. You can't really get a fair hearing.
	Just like Alex Jones couldn't get a fair trial in Connecticut.
	Right.
	Trump can't get a fair trial in New York.
	I mean, we're talking about the dissolution of the rule of law in this nation, which is why this Roger Veer case is so critical.
	It is.
	We have to push back against this because...
	Rules and laws have to be universally and fairly applied to everybody.
	But it seems like, and my question to you is, is the IRS trying to make an example out of Roger to try to put fear into the cryptocurrency community?
	Absolutely.
	The IRS wants to make an example of Roger.
	They want to make an example to the Bitcoin community.
	They want to make an example to the entire crypto community.
	They want to make an example to every libertarian.
	They want to make an example to every MAGA, every MAHA. Every single person who has even thought for a moment about maybe standing up, maybe telling the truth, maybe standing up for American values and having any issue with the deep state at all.
	That's what they're doing here, and that is why any of us who care at all about freedom, who care at all about liberty, who care at all about justice, need to stand up now, and we need to stand up in this case.
	Because just like we said about Alex Jones and nobody listened, If you didn't stand up for Alex Jones when Alex was in trouble, they were going to come after someone else.
	Who did they come after next?
	They came after Trump.
	I did stand up for Alex Jones, by the way.
	And thank you for that.
	Alex is a good man.
	And I stand up for Edward Snowden and I stand up for Julian Assange and Donald Trump against the law fair, etc.
	And we don't have to agree with each of these people on everything to stand up for them.
	This isn't a purity test.
	Right.
	This is a matter of...
	It's the rule of law.
	The rule of law.
	And due process in the court system.
	If it doesn't stand now for these people, it will not stand for you.
	Well, and going back to Alex, you realize they did not give him a trial by jury.
	He had a summary.
	They declared him guilty, and then they asked the jury to decide how much he owes.
	That's not...
	That's not how our legal system works.
	No, it's not.
	That's bull****.
	Exactly.
	$1.5 billion of bull**** in Alex's case.
	Yeah.
	But Roger, if he is convicted, now we're talking about life in prison.
	Yeah.
	We're talking about him dying in prison, him never seeing his loved ones again.
	Yeah, we can't let that happen.
	No, we can't.
	So we need every American who cares at all about freedom, at all about liberty, to understand this case should matter to you.
	You may have never heard his name before.
	It doesn't matter.
	And by the way, I do encourage you, go look him up.
	Roger's a wonderful person.
	I got involved in this case because I was ideologically aligned, because I was philosophically aligned, and because I was concerned about the legal ramifications of this case.
	But then I got to know Roger himself.
	And now I care about this case because I care about Roger.
	He's a really good, decent human being.
	I've never seen him treat anyone with anything other than respect.
	I've never seen him approach anyone with anything other than pure politeness and compassion.
	He's a good man who deserves to spend the rest of his life fighting for freedom, fighting for...
	Helping to build civilization.
	Exactly.
	Build abundance.
	He has done more than almost anyone else has.
	Exactly.
	No, they're putting the builders in prison.
	And they're letting the corrupt run the system.
	And they're looting the system.
	They are.
	I mean, in my opinion...
	Look at Elon Musk, right?
	If Kamala Harris had won, Elon Musk would be going to prison.
	Probably.
	That's right.
	He's a builder.
	I don't have to agree with Elon on everything to understand the man does not belong in prison.
	We need men like Elon, like Trump...
	Like incoming members of the administration, like Vivek Ramaswamy.
	We need Jeff Clark.
	We need all of these people who have been threatened with lawfare or been victims of lawfare.
	We need all of them to look at this case and to see...
	This one matters.
	Well, absolutely.
	And just for the record, if Kamala had won, I would have been arrested.
	I was on the arrest list.
	I believe it.
	A lot of us.
	A lot of us were.
	I mean, thousands of us in independent media were on the arrest list.
	I mean, you know the joke, like, you know, I hope we're in the same FEMA camp, right?
	Right, right.
	Maybe we can share the same guillotine, you know, if it comes to that.
	But thankfully, Kamala did not win.
	And we have to make sure that the Trump administration...
	It does their job.
	How do I say this?
	They came in with a mandate.
	They came in with a mandate from the liberty movement.
	They came in with a mandate from the health freedom movement.
	They came in with a mandate from the medical freedom movement.
	They came in with a mandate from all of us and from the crypto movement.
	And they better deliver.
	It's up to us to make sure they deliver.
	Some of the picks that Trump has made are not in alignment with what the people thought they were voting for.
	Right.
	So we that's why we have to be critical.
	We have to be vocal, but also in a sense, supportive of this, the overall theme.
	Right.
	Because Trump knows about lawfare.
	I've said this like about RFK Jr., for example.
	The reason that I trust RFK Jr. in this role at HHS, even though I completely disagree with him on energy and climate and whatever.
	But I love who he is and what he's going to do here because he was persecuted.
	He was on the disinformation dozen list.
	Lawfare was committed against him, censorship against him, and they're still doing it now to try to stop his nomination.
	So I am pro-RFK Jr. 100%.
	Right?
	And I am pro-Trump being in the Oval Office, even though I disagree with him on a lot of things.
	But this, Roger Ver, and some of the other names we mentioned, this is critical for Trump to restore even just the appearance of a judicial system that is somewhat fair.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	The damage to the institutions by this lawfare, I don't think many people inside the institutions fully grasp.
	But the faith that has been lost.
	So if Trump wants to save this republic...
	He needs to stand up for the people who are prominent victims of the lawfare from across the spectrum.
	That's right.
	And Roger is the perfect person to fill that role.
	100%.
	So, freerogernow.org.
	Yes.
	Please go there.
	Please sign the open letter.
	We need to be able to present President Trump with as many signatures as possible.
	This is going to take less than 60 seconds of your time.
	Okay, so let's give our viewers action items that they can do to help support it.
	Okay, so number one, freerogernow.org.
	Sign the petition right here.
	We don't ask for your name, rank, and serial number.
	We're asking for your name and your email address.
	That's it.
	You can do this within 15 seconds and hit done.
	Secondly, Well, here's rogervere.com.
	Your Twitter handle, Tracy Thurman.
	It's Tracy A. Thurman.
	And there's Tracy without an E in it.
	Correct.
	There's no E. Got it.
	Okay.
	Tracy A. Thurman.
	Oh, you follow me.
	Look at that.
	I'm honored that you're following me.
	I should follow you.
	Here we go.
	Okay.
	Following.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So...
	In addition to that, what else can people do?
	Obviously, people can share this interview.
	This interview will be posted on Rumble, as well as, of course, Brighteon.
	But did you know that X still kind of censors Brighteon links?
	And we have a lawsuit against...
	Well, we filed it Because of what Jack Dorsey did, not what Elon Musk did.
	Hopefully Elon will reverse it.
	Hopefully Elon will solve the situation.
	But we're still partially banned by X. So for those of you watching, find this interview on Rumble, and then you can share the Rumble link easily on X. So share the Rumble link.
	We ask people to start sharing content like this on X.com.
	As often as you're willing to do so, because we need, between now and inauguration day, between now and the day one pardons, we need word on this to get out.
	We need people to spread this message.
	We need as many people as possible to become aware of it.
	We need as many signatures as possible, and we need it to get to President Trump's attention that this is not any, you know, the importance of this case, that this is one he needs to add to his list.
	Okay, and then I'll have my editors also do a story about our interview.
	Wonderful.
	And, you know, we'll spread the information that way.
	Because I wasn't following this story until, well, people that we know in common connected us.
	Yes.
	But that's how it works.
	It is about networking for the pro-liberty, pro-truth people.
	But what about Roger himself?
	Is he doing interviews?
	Is he talking?
	Or is he, like, under attorney silence right now?
	What's his situation?
	So...
	Anything you can say can and will be used against you.
	Of course.
	So of course the advice that he's been given is to say nothing.
	I would imagine.
	For a man like him, that's very hard to do because he has a lot to say.
	Hopefully at some point soon he can break his silence.
	We all look forward to that day.
	Yeah.
	But it may well have to wait until after he's pardoned.
	So if you want to hear from Roger himself, which I promise you, you do want to hear from him.
	I'd love to hear from Roger, yeah.
	If we can get him a pardon, I'm sure he would return to this show.
	Sure.
	He has six months of things to say at this point that are bottled up.
	Well, and we've interviewed Aaron Day before.
	Aaron's a good man.
	Actually, I'm going to brand this interview on our show, which is Decentralize.TV. That's our show.
	It's called Decentralize.TV. It's all about teaching a decentralized lifestyle.
	Love it.
	Well, if you saw my bio on...
	On there.
	Basically, I'm an advocate for decentralized and permissionless systems in food, medicine, and finances.
	Well, no wonder we get along so well.
	We have the same philosophy.
	Exactly.
	I'm exactly the same way.
	Yeah, food production should be completely decentralized.
	Absolutely.
	And then you have resiliency, redundancy, you have choice, all that.
	Education should be decentralized.
	It should be decentralized down to the homeschooling level.
	Absolutely.
	And medicine, oh my God, do we even need to revisit the last five years?
	The evils of centralized medicine?
	Correct.
	How they were murdering people in the hospitals because it was hospital protocol given to them by the feds because they wanted people to die so they could pump up the numbers?
	There's the evil of centralization right there.
	It is.
	And if you care about those issues, people should know Roger's been funding many of the dissident voices in the medical freedom world.
	Wow.
	He's the reason the Brownstone Institute exists.
	And for those who don't know what Brownstone is, it's a libertarian think tank, but it's much more than that.
	Besides, I'm an author at the Brownstone Institute as well.
	Oh, you are?
	Okay.
	I do.
	I write there on primarily food policy and the Amish, which is...
	That's awesome.
	What I do in my life when I'm not fighting for...
	No, that's so cool.
	I was just talking about the Amish in my podcast yesterday.
	I said the Amish are not afraid of the AI robot takeover.
	Well, you would enjoy my...
	They know how to do things without technology.
	It's actually a good skill set.
	You'd enjoy my article on the Amish as a control group for technocracy or for techno-feudalism.
	I would enjoy that.
	So Brownstone exists because of Roger.
	Wow.
	And so Brownstone, more than just a think tank where articles are published, the most beautiful thing that Brownstone does is it provides fellowships that allow displaced academics and doctors to have a large enough stipend that they can live, that they can pay their bills, that they can continue speaking truth, they can continue to stand up.
	I love it.
	That's dear to my heart.
	It's amazing.
	There are many, many doctors, especially, that you and I both know who are all fellows at the Brownstone Institute.
	And if you're a fellow at the Brownstone Institute, you are receiving enough of an income to survive so that you are not captive to the system that has betrayed you.
	Amazing.
	So Aaron Day, Brett Weinstein, go look at the list of fellows at the Brownstone Institute and realize these are all voices you care about.
	Wow.
	Wow.
	Who would not be supported by the Brownstone Institute in the way they are except for Roger.
	Wow.
	And I'm not saying he's the only funder, but I'm saying he was the seed funder.
	He gave the mega donation that founded the Brownstone Institute.
	And Jeffrey Tucker will happily tell you that.
	And then there are hundreds and hundreds of other small efforts that he has quietly funded.
	He's not one of these people who's motivated by attention, by credit.
	And so he's been quietly doing all of these things and not announcing it to the world.
	And if it wasn't for you, none of us would know this.
	Because he's so much in the background.
	Exactly.
	And I don't think he was enthusiastic about these things coming out, but the world needs to know what he has done for them so that they can step up to save him now.
	Absolutely.
	We need to support pioneering thinkers like Roger, people who want to help build human civilization.
	like I'm a builder, you're a builder we want to empower others with knowledge actually let me bring this up you may not even know this but this is relevant if you go to our AI website brighteon.ai we have already released an early AI model open source downloadable language model
	But we're releasing a much more comprehensive one in 2025 that encapsulates all the natural health knowledge and raw milk and nutrition, alternative medicine, and it's a complete domain adaptation of a,
	I think we're doing a 32 billion parameter language model that will be the only AI language model in the world That answers chat questions and is generative in its content with our worldview.
	Wow, that's amazing.
	Yeah, and we're giving it away.
	That's incredible.
	That's what we're doing.
	That's so fantastic.
	It's in the line of Mike Roger.
	Yeah, these are the creative, decentralized, independent solutions that we need.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Sayer G from Green Med Info, he gave us his entire library of content to use as training materials.
	Dr. Mercola gave us his entire library.
	We have all the natural news library.
	We have now collected the greatest selection of natural health and nutrition content that's ever been curated in the world.
	That's incredible.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Because this is the kind of stuff that gets me excited about.
	Like, I want to contribute to humanity.
	This is a Noah's Ark of knowledge about natural health and permaculture and regenerative agriculture and all of that.
	Stuff that you're into as well.
	Absolutely.
	So, I mean, you just never know.
	Like, if you let people have freedom, what they're going to come up with that can actually improve society.
	Exactly.
	All kinds of projects like this.
	Right.
	But that's the kind of person that Roger is.
	A hundred percent.
	And, you know, there was this split in the crypto community back in 2017 between, you know, Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash.
	I remember that.
	And he took the side of Bitcoin Cash.
	But people associate him as, you know, the Bitcoin Cash guy.
	In reality, he didn't make Bitcoin Cash.
	He just thought, as a man of principle, that Bitcoin Cash allowed for more freedom and that it allowed— and his whole goal behind cryptocurrency wasn't, you know, number go up.
	It was for two people to be able to go out for coffee and pay in this and not be stuck in the dollar.
	Because for those of us who are being debanked, All of your friends and my friends who are being debanked know what matters is what you can use to pay for coffee or your groceries or your utility bills.
	If it costs you $30 to $50 a transaction, you can't use it as a freedom currency.
	And that's not to say there's no use case for Bitcoin.
	I don't mean that at all.
	I completely respect my Bitcoin maxi friends.
	Bitcoin is not a transactional currency today.
	It's become digital gold.
	It's become a store of value.
	Right.
	Which is actually very divergent from its original intent.
	Yes, it is.
	And that's what Roger was speaking about.
	And so it's not that he's an enemy of that.
	And in fact, and I'm very pleased to see this, many Bitcoin maximalists have come out in his favor and said, look, we disagree with Roger on this, but it doesn't matter.
	This man should not be facing 109 years in prison.
	Absolutely.
	I think I would have agreed with him on that debate, by the way.
	And I was very critical of Bitcoin before the FTX crash because of the just kind of the blind hype of, you know, FOMO and everybody, you're going to miss out, mortgage everything and just buy Bitcoin.
	And that did not appeal to my intellect of the properties of cryptocurrency, the decentralization, the divisibility, the lack of counterfeit ability, the defense against confiscation.
	These are the things that appeal to me.
	Not just, is the price higher today?
	So Bitcoin kind of got dumbed down at that time, but things have changed significantly since then.
	Correct.
	And he wrote a book called Hijacking Bitcoin, along with a guy called Steve Patterson.
	And the government decided to indict him right as that book was about to launch.
	No kidding.
	right as that book was going live and right as he was launching the book tour.
	And what he goes into in that book is it's basically how, in his estimation, Bitcoin was hijacked, how corporate interests and potentially U.S. intelligence interests intentionally derailed the opportunity to have permissionless how corporate interests and potentially U.S. intelligence interests intentionally derailed the opportunity to have permissionless peer-to-peer cash in exchange of a digital asset that you So I don't think that's a coincidence.
	Monero keeps getting delisted from exchanges because I prefer the privacy of Monero, you know?
	Well, one you should really look at, too, is Zeno.
	I know Zeno.
	You do?
	We interviewed...
	You knew it through Aaron?
	The guy who...
	The top guy of Zeno for our show.
	Oh, that's fantastic.
	We interviewed a lot of...
	I love it.
	Because I do think that we are undeniably heading toward a future where all of our assets will be digital.
	Right.
	And it needs to be non-centralized.
	Correct.
	And Zeno allows for non-centralized digitization of assets.
	Agreed.
	Yeah, right.
	So that's really critical because if we have hard assets in the physical world, it could be land, it could be gold, it could be grams of gold or whatever, or oil.
	How do you digitize that and create a transactional ecosystem?
	Without it being centralized.
	Without it being centralized.
	Because it's going to happen, but the plan is for it to be fully centralized.
	That's right.
	So I'm all on board with everything you're talking about here, and it's very clear that humanity is going to have to make a very important choice between centralized CBDCs versus decentralized freedom-oriented, which is really the Bitcoin fork of humanity.
	Yes, that's really well said.
	And that's why I think one of the main reasons they're going after him is he was one of the first people to have this vision of the control structure of CBDCs.
	Not the first one, but he was among the first ones to see it.
	And he has been one of the main ones promoting the best possible solution to it.
	You and I both know CBDCs are coming and they're coming very soon.
	One can argue in some senses they're here.
	And...
	When they start taking out the people who have been building the best alternatives, we need to notice.
	Absolutely.
	And it's also pretty clear to me, I don't mean to get too distracted from the plight of Roger here because we really want to support him.
	And we want to spread awareness about this.
	But it's very clear to me.
	I mean, I've interviewed a lot of financial experts and I'm a high IQ individual.
	I've done the math on this.
	Trump's going to have to declare a default on the U.S. debt.
	When that day comes, they also have to have a scapegoat and a solution, right?
	So the scapegoat's going to be, well, Russia nuked us or whatever, and the solution's going to be, hey, guess what?
	All of you who lost money in the collapsing banking system, we have all your money.
	It's over here in this other place.
	It's in your CBDC wallet.
	All you have to do is, you know...
	Take a nasal swab or whatever, like scan your eyeballs, and then you can access your money.
	Except the negative interest rates, the completely permissioned transactions, the ability that we can turn it on and off, except all of that and you can have your money back that we stole.
	But the average American has no idea what any of that means.
	No, the average American at this point financially is picnicking on the train tracks.
	Yeah, that's true.
	And they are systematically taking out every person who is trying to wake them up.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	But Elon, they haven't taken out Elon.
	He's got a pro-crypto, pro-tech take on all of this.
	He narrowly escaped probably being imprisoned by Kamala.
	But what do you think Elon can do about this?
	Is Elon, because, you know, sometimes he does great things for freedom, other times not so much.
	It's like, what's your read on Elon and his role with Trump?
	Is he going to help us achieve human freedom, or is it just to enrich Elon's empire?
	You know what I mean?
	What's your take?
	Time will tell.
	Yeah.
	But Elon has the capacity to do tremendous good for humanity.
	Absolutely.
	And this is one of the cases where I think Elon could truly do that.
	If Elon decides to start speaking up for Roger and recognize that Roger is, yes, that Roger is essentially a brother in arms, that Roger is a fellow victim of lawfare, that Roger is a fellow visionary who is being targeted, he could really move the needle.
	So this is one that Elon could do, can do an incredible good in many spaces.
	This is one where I'm really hopeful that Elon will pick up our cause.
	I think there's a good chance he will.
	I truly hope so.
	Yeah, I think there's a good chance he will.
	All right, so what we all have to do, folks, for those of you watching, is we have to raise awareness here for Roger Veer.
	So send out the tweets, share this video, sign the petition.
	And share the Rumble link for sure.
	The what link?
	The Rumble link.
	Yeah, the Rumble link for our video.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And what else?
	They can visit his website.
	You can read his books, hijacking Bitcoin.
	And tell your friends, tell your family, tell the people around you about this story.
	That's, you know, mostly efforts like this to get pardons take six to 10 years.
	We're trying to get it done in three months.
	We're attempting to do the impossible.
	But I believe the possible, I believe the impossible is possible if you just believe it.
	And so that's what I've chosen to do.
	That's why my entire life is on hold to try to get this done.
	And with the help of your listeners and everybody else out there, we can do it.
	But you also said that Rogers' attorneys are going to file a motion to dismiss.
	Yes.
	So that's another possibility.
	Yes.
	I mean, we're up against a justice system that no matter how compelling the evidence is, doesn't always rule on the evidence.
	Right.
	Of course.
	But there is always hope.
	When is that decision expected?
	Well, there's usually filing deadlines for the defendant, but judges, their deadlines are a little less strict.
	So that could extend far beyond January 20th?
	It could potentially, or they could rule on it before then.
	I see.
	Okay.
	I'm guessing that Trump might wait for that decision.
	It's possible.
	Right?
	He might just say, well, let's just wait and see if this gets dismissed, and then...
	It's possible.
	Yes, I mean, and it would be understandable.
	But what we really want him to do is add Roger to the day one list, along with the January Sixers, along with Ross Ulbricht, along with, we hope, Julian and Edward.
	We want him on that list.
	The military establishment.
	Is going to absolutely pressure Trump not to pardon Assange.
	And Snowden.
	And Snowden, right?
	Yep, absolutely.
	And that's exactly why they need to be pardoned.
	But I don't think Snowden's ever going to come back to the U.S. even if he's pardoned.
	Understandably so.
	Right, because risk of assassination would be very high.
	And Assange is already, isn't he back in Australia now?
	He is.
	He's back in Australia with his family.
	Right.
	Oh, thank God.
	What a...
	That's torture, what they put him through?
	It is.
	To live in an embassy for 14 years or whatever that was?
	And then live in Belmarsh Prison in solitary?
	No human being deserves this.
	Here's the thing, you know, the U.S. empire likes to lecture countries like China and say, well, we have the moral high ground.
	Say, well, we have honest elections.
	Ha ha.
	We have a court system that's fair.
	Are you kidding me?
	We don't organ harvest.
	Oh, yes, you do.
	Have you seen the FDA files with the abortion fetuses and everything?
	You know, all these claims that the U.S. tries to stake its moral righteousness on, they're all false.
	Actually, the U.S. has no moral grounds from which to lecture China or, frankly, Iran or Russia or anybody at this point.
	But we can restore some moral high ground.
	We can.
	And it's going to take pardons like this.
	Yes, it's going to take ending the lawfare and rolling back the lawfare.
	And this is an opportunity to do this.
	I mean, and for those who are thinking, like, 109 years, how do you reach 109 years for what I just described?
	Yeah, that's a question.
	90 years of it is for filing his taxes.
	90 years is for filing his taxes.
	So it's for mail fraud.
	And the mail fraud was putting his taxes into a mailbox.
	And why 90 years?
	Oh, that's interesting.
	Why were there three counts of it?
	There were three counts of it because in 2014 he mailed his taxes.
	Then they erroneously told him they did not receive them, even though they admit now they did.
	And so he dutifully refiled them and sent them again.
	So he's facing an additional 30 years for doing...
	He's facing another 30 years for their mistake.
	And then, of course, in the 2017 taxes, which is another ballgame, they're giving him a mail fraud charge for this.
	So 90 years of the 109 years is for mailing in his taxes.
	To Americans, if you don't understand what a dangerous precedent this is, wake up.
	Well, let me share.
	This is a true story.
	It just happened to us recently.
	The IRS sent us a refund.
	Oh, you overpaid.
	And on the same day, they sent us a demand for a much smaller amount that they said we owed, that we had underpaid.
	And of course, that demand comes with all kinds of threats, which is just like standard letters from the IRS. We can seize everything you ever owned.
	And we're like, why can't you deduct the smaller amount from the larger amount and send us a smaller refund check?
	Well, no, they can't even answer that question.
	So we have to cash the refund check.
	We take this U.S. Treasury check to the bank, cash it.
	Bank's like, we've got to put a hold on this.
	I'm like, you don't trust the Treasury?
	Like, no, we really don't trust the Treasury.
	So how long is the hold?
	Well, it's like, you know, whatever, 11 days or whatever.
	And so we've got to wait for the Treasury money to show up, and then we can write this smaller check back to the Treasury to avoid being persecuted.
	And then the IRS sends us, this is a totally separate thing, they send us another demand to say, you didn't pay this thing.
	Some quarterly tax.
	And our accountant said, but we did pay that.
	And then she talks to the IRS, actually able to reach them, and they said, oh yeah, turns out that our computers were down.
	So we didn't know that you had paid that, so we sent you a notice to pay it.
	And then after that, our computers started working again.
	So now we know you don't need to pay it.
	We're like, well, how do you cancel this shit out?
	Because now you're on the record like we got to pay you twice.
	And you can imagine somewhere in there they can find a felony.
	Oh, yeah.
	Right?
	Because you did or you didn't or you mailed it or you didn't mail it or you didn't reply or the decimal point is wrong.
	Like somewhere there's a felony in that if they want you.
	Exactly.
	And that's the thing.
	People have to understand...
	If you care about freedom at some point, you're on the list.
	You may be way down the list.
	You may be down below Trump and Alex Jones and Elon Musk and Roger, but you're still on the list.
	And if you don't stand up for the people at the top of the list, they're going to get to you.
	Exactly right.
	And the system is impossible for any of us to navigate without attorneys and without accountants.
	They're attempting to use Roger's case to deny us the right to depend on those where we can face felony charges for listening to our attorneys and our accountants.
	That's insane.
	Totally insane.
	Because that's the legal defense in court.
	It is.
	I took counsel's advice.
	Exactly.
	I relied on counsel.
	And Roger followed his counsel's advice to a T. The indictment Is a fraud in my books.
	That's my words.
	But the indictment is a fraud.
	And the motion to dismiss, I encourage people to read it when it comes out because it includes everything that the DOJ chair picked.
	When is that coming out?
	It was supposed to be filed this week.
	Cool.
	I believe it should be out later this week.
	So let me know so we can cover that.
	I absolutely will.
	Can't his attorneys in Spain fight extradition?
	It's a really good question.
	Yes, but of course, and this won't surprise you, the U.S. government decided to lie to the Spanish courts, too.
	Yeah, right.
	They cherry-picked.
	They pretended they didn't have access to all these emails showing that Roger followed his attorney's advice perfectly, that Roger followed the law.
	Wow.
	And so they cherry-picked just the parts that they thought would make Roger look guilty.
	That's all they presented to the Spanish government.
	And so he's facing extradition based on a fraud.
	Wow.
	Based on a fraud by our government.
	And this is embarrassing as an American, is it not, Mike?
	It's insane.
	It's completely insane.
	And they venue shopped getting him out of Spain because just in the weeks beforehand, he'd been in five, six, seven different countries.
	They didn't try to take him from Japan.
	They didn't try to take him from the UAE. They didn't try to take him from Singapore or Korea.
	No, they waited until he was in Spain.
	Why did they wait until he was in Spain?
	Well, look at what Spain did to John McAfee, who's a friend of Roger's.
	Right.
	And there's others that Spain has indicted, but they counted on Spain not looking at the indictment carefully, just rolling over and doing their bidding.
	If they knew it was a strong indictment, they could have gotten him from Japan or Korea or UAE or any of the other places.
	If it was a strong indictment, that would stand up to scrutiny.
	But no, they waited for him to go to the one country that was least likely to stand up and just do what they said.
	Well, let me tell you this.
	They don't even need extradition.
	They will go in, the U.S. State Department will go in and kidnap you.
	And I know this firsthand because a man that I used to know who passed away, Greg Caton, when I lived in Ecuador, he lived in a different city in Ecuador, and he was selling a product called CanSima, which was an anti-cancer topical treatment which eliminated cancer tumors, and it was based on Amazonian rainforest herbs and zinc and things, and it really worked.
	I mean, it was backed by a lot of good science, actually, about being an anti-cancer treatment.
	Well, he was selling it from Ecuador and shipping it to the states.
	The FDA got ahold of the State Department to indict him.
	They put him on Interpol.
	Wanted for international drug-related crimes because the FDA said that's an unapproved drug.
	So now you're thinking, what, is he a heroin smuggler?
	No.
	No, he sells cancer treatment for your skin, you know?
	So the State Department put a bunch of U.S. Marshals on a plane.
	They flew to Guayaquil, which is on the west coast of Ecuador.
	They bribed the local police in the city where Caton lived.
	They kidnapped him in his own driveway.
	Wow.
	They handed him over to the U.S. Marshals.
	They put him on a plane, totally illegally.
	This was all extrajudicial, right?
	They flew him to Houston.
	Boom.
	Put him in federal court.
	Send him to prison for two or three years.
	So they didn't even bother with extradition.
	Wow.
	And he didn't even use crypto.
	Wow.
	Unbelievable.
	I mean, and again, this is lawfare.
	This is pure and simply lawfare.
	This is just egregious overreach by our government.
	We all need to start standing up to it.
	Because if we don't, you know, go back to that quote from, I believe it was Martin Niemöller, but if we don't stand up when they come for these people, they're coming for the rest of us too.
	Yeah, it's true.
	All right, Tracy.
	Well, this is a very disturbing but enlightening testimony here that you've given us.
	Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap this up?
	Just a reminder to everybody, go to freerogernow.org.
	Here it is.
	Please sign the open letter there.
	Again, it should take about 60 seconds of your time maximum.
	Right here.
	We don't ask for your personal identifying information, just the email address.
	All right.
	And share that with your family and friends.
	If we don't get enough signatures, it's going to be very hard to save Roger.
	Oh, look, here's quotes from Mark Dice and Aaron Day and Jeffrey Tucker and others.
	Brett Weinstein.
	Brett Weinstein, yeah.
	And Rampage Jackson, the fighter.
	Oh, yeah, that is Rampage Jackson.
	That's awesome.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	Just what an incredible story.
	And this is happening in real time.
	Yes.
	Yes, this is happening right now.
	Extradition could happen when Spain makes up their mind.
	He could be sitting in a U.S. prison awaiting the mercy of the president.
	Wow.
	Or spend the rest of his life there.
	Well, Trump pardoned Roger Stone.
	Maybe he'll pardon Roger Veer.
	We truly hope so.
	Trump has the opportunity to prevent the crucifixion of Bitcoin Jesus.
	Think about it.
	The crucifixion of Bitcoin Jesus.
	Wow.
	He should do it.
	Well, he should do it.
	There is no greater pardon power than preventing the crucifixion of Bitcoin Jesus.
	And actually, this would create so much goodwill for Trump among the entire crypto community.
	It would.
	It would create huge goodwill.
	And this is the community that Trump has been doing outreach to.
	So this is not a time for Pontius Pilate.
	I've seen a lot of libertarians criticizing Trump because Trump promised to put a libertarian in his cabinet, and libertarians are asking, when is that coming?
	And then some people say, well, RFK Jr. counts as a libertarian.
	I'm like, eh, not exactly.
	He's a convert.
	He's a former Democrat that now has an L next to his name, but...
	He's not part of the libertarian ethos.
	You know what I mean?
	So we need a real libertarian.
	And Ron Paul's name has been tossed around, which is awesome.
	I'd love to see Ron Paul involved in Doge, maybe.
	Yeah, I mean, hey, maybe we can finally audit the Fed, you know, or just end it.
	That'd be amazing.
	Yeah.
	Because we know how the scam works now.
	What Ron Paul was talking about in the 1990s that was really fringe then, now is everyday conversation.
	Now it's common knowledge.
	Yes.
	Trump could do a lot of goodwill with this one pardon on top of the other pardons.
	He absolutely could.
	Put his money where his mouth is.
	Don't be Pontius Pilate.
	Prevent the crucifixion of Bitcoin Jesus.
	It's just one more signature, man.
	It is.
	It's not going to cost him anything.
	I feel sorry for Trump's wrist on January 20th because he's going to be signing so many executive orders, so many pardons.
	It's going to be like getting the LGBT woke-ism out of the Pentagon.
	He's got to sign that.
	Let the pipelines be constructed again.
	He's going to be busy.
	He's going to be busy, and we need to not let up on him until he does it.
	So if it doesn't happen on day one...
	Stick it to him.
	Yeah.
	On day two, or three, or four, or five, or six, or 21. No, we're going to be vocal.
	We cannot let up on Trump and just go at the end of day one, ah, he didn't do it.
	That's too bad.
	No.
	We need to stick on him until it's finished.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Trump can also...
	He can change the future.
	I mean, he can really change the course of this republic.
	Trump can make a huge difference, even though they're going to fight him every step of the way.
	But this time, he's not naive like he was in the first term.
	I think in the first term, he spent like three years thinking, sooner or later, they'll just do what I tell them to do.
	And it's like, nope.
	That's never going to happen.
	Right.
	That's not how the deep state works.
	You have to force them.
	Yep.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Well, Tracy, it's been a pleasure getting to know you.
	This is the first time we've ever spoken, by the way.
	Yes, it is.
	So just understanding your philosophy and, you know, there is hope for humanity.
	Absolutely.
	The only time there is no hope is if we decide to give up.
	As long as people like you and me and the people listening here continue to fight, keep going.
	I like to tell people is if you're a fellow idealist and you're pushing rocks up hills, keep up that Sisyphean battle because you don't know which day you're finally going to make it to the top.
	Is it a Sisyphean battle?
	It is.
	It's the legend of Sisyphus.
	Sisyphus?
	It's Sisyphus who pushes the rock up the hill every single day and every night it rolls back down, but he pushes it back up the next day.
	A hero of Stoicism.
	I see.
	And doing what we do is a Sisyphean battle.
	We often don't succeed, at least not on the first time.
	But the only way we fail is if we give up.
	Right.
	Is if we decide, well, the rock rolled back down, guess it's over now.
	It's not.
	Keep pushing.
	Someday we're going to make it to the top.
	And this case is one I firmly believe we can make it to the top and we can make it to the top on January 21st.
	Right on.
	And occasionally we can strategically decide when to release that rock.
	Right.
	As long as it doesn't violate the non-engrafting principle.
	The gravity well of Earth has some functions.
	This is true.
	Okay, all right.
	Great metaphors, a lot of fun, but very important topics here.
	So, Roger Veer, we're pulling for you, man, and I hope he watches this interview.
	Oh, he will.
	I'm sure he will.
	I'm not going to let this go either, so you keep in touch with me, please.
	We will hammer this all the way through to January 20th, whatever it takes, and he's welcome to come on my show.
	You're welcome back.
	Give us updates.
	We'll cover it editorially, the whole deal.
	I'll be happy to come back on.
	Mike, thank you so much for supporting this.
	Thank you.
	And it's been such a pleasure to meet you.
	Well, before you leave, we're going to load you up with a bunch of our Health Ranger store superfood products, by the way.
	I can't wait.
	Whatever you can take with you on.
	Did you fly here?
	I flew, but I can always ship things back.
	Okay, all right.
	So we're going to get you some great nutrition, some superfoods.
	Keep that awesome brain of yours, like, really nourished.
	You'll love it.
	Appreciate it.
	And that's our way to say thank you to you for coming.
	Thank you so much.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Absolute pleasure.
	And thank all of you for watching.
	This is, of course, Mike Adams here, Decentralized TV and Brighteon.com.
	And I just want to thank you for all your support.
	And please join us in helping to free Roger Veer.
	And if we succeed in that, I think we'll invite him on the show.
	How about that?
	After his pardon.
	And that'll be an awesome celebration.
	So thank you all for watching.
	I'm Mike Adams.
	Take care.
	Mike Adams here, and I want to share a little nutritional secret with you.
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	So thank you for all your support.
	God bless you all.

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