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Aug. 12, 2024 - Health Ranger - Mike Adams
53:40
The Case for PALESTINE – Author Daniel Kovalik interviewed by Mike Adams
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Welcome to today's interview on Brighteon.com.
I'm Mike Adams, the founder of Brighteon.
Thank you for joining me today.
And as you are no doubt aware, we are on the verge of, well, wars and chaos and rumors of wars as well across our planet.
And of course, a region of particular concern right now is the Middle East, where Israel has engaged in incessant bombing of civilians, women and children and doctors and refugees throughout Gaza, and also, of course, parts of the West Bank and so on.
There's a whole history of Palestine that everybody needs to know.
We are joined today by a first-time guest, Dan Kowalik, who is the author of a relatively new book, Mike, thank you.
I'm very grateful to be here today.
Thank you.
Well, thank you again for authoring this book and taking the time to share it with us.
Now, the first question our audience will want to know is a little bit about you and your background.
Let me give out your Twitter address.
It is...
Well, can you give it out?
What's your Twitter?
At Daniel M. Kovalik.
Got it.
A-O-V-A-L-I-K. At Daniel M. Kovalik.
And it says that you're a lawyer, professor, and author of books.
So take it from there, Dan.
Yes.
Well, just a little background.
I live in Pittsburgh now.
I have for 30 years, but I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio.
I went to Moeller High School, which some people will know as a Catholic school.
Great football team.
I played football there.
I went to law school at Columbia Law School in New York City.
And I actually was in-house counsel for the United Steelworkers Union for 26 years.
That's what brought me to Pittsburgh.
No kidding.
Yeah, I've worn many hats in my day.
I also taught international human rights law at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law for 12 years.
All right, that's a really relevant background to this, so thank you for sharing that with us.
Now then, from that, have you ever written other books about Palestine, or is this the first one?
This is the first one.
I've certainly written books where I've talked about Palestine.
I wrote a book about Iran, and I visited Iran in 2017.
But this is the first book I've written about Palestine, where that was the only subject.
And what will people find in this book that is most important for them to recognize?
Well, what I tried to do is really write a comprehensive book about the history of Israel, Zionism, the history of the occupation of the Palestinians, and to show that history did not begin on October 7th, which we're often led to believe.
I've tried to write it in a way that, frankly, someone who doesn't know much about the subject can pick it up and learn about all that, and also learn about October 7th and the genocide, as I believe it is, that has occurred since then in Gaza.
Well, that sounds like a very useful approach for many people.
And let me admit to you here right now that before October 7th, I knew very little about the history of Israel or Palestine.
I had never heard the term the Nakba before that.
I had no idea.
I did not know that there was systematic rape and torture of Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
And I'm ashamed.
I'm ashamed of that as a Christian.
I'm ashamed that I did not know that.
And I wonder how many other people are arriving at the same realization right now.
What's your take?
Well, what I would say is you should not be ashamed.
And I say that in the book.
What I say very clearly in the book is it is not surprising if you never heard of the Nakba and you didn't know about the horrible treatment of the Palestinian people because you have been utterly uninformed about it intentionally by your schools, by the media.
The Palestinian people have been really, up to October 7th, have been a largely invisible people, particularly to Americans.
And again, that's on purpose.
Israel was founded on a myth, and the big myth, amongst others, was a land without a people for a people without a land.
Oh, but the land was already occupied.
That's correct.
Right.
The myth was it wasn't.
Oh, wow.
In fact, up until recently, the Israeli government wouldn't even admit there was a Nakba because, of course, that goes against the motto of a land without a people.
Right.
And in the Nakba, as you know, Mike, in 1947 to 1948, The Israelis displaced, forcibly and violently displaced about 750,000 Palestinians from their home, from their land, and killed thousands of people in the process, and as you said, raped people and committed other acts of terrorism against them.
And what people might be surprised to know is in Gaza, up until October 7th, 70% of the people who lived there, they were...
Descendants of people who had been displaced in 1948.
Oh, wow.
And now, since October 7th, every human being who still lives in Gaza has been displaced multiple times since October 7th.
I've had friends in Gaza I communicate with.
These paintings behind me were done by a woman from Gaza.
She's finally actually in Egypt.
She fled there from Gaza.
But she, like many others, you know, she fled from her home, which was destroyed.
Then fled to a tent, a makeshift tent, in Rafa, and then into Egypt.
Which, by the way, I just came back from Egypt, meeting Palestinians there.
I've been displaced many times, and now they're calling it NACPA 2.0.
Well, yes, and as I've been following this very closely since October 7th, it's become clear to me that Israel would tell people, for example, in the north of Gaza, to evacuate to the south, and here are the safe evacuation routes, and then Israel would systematically target and bomb the evacuation routes, And then when the people made it to the South, such as Rafa, then they would be bombed in the South.
And so it was the most inhumane, insane military carpet bombing of civilians.
And then to hear Netanyahu speak before the United States Congress, which I'd like to ask you about what that means to you, because I was horrified as an American.
But to speak before the U.S. Congress and then say that they killed almost no civilians in Gaza was beyond belief.
It was an historic, horrendous crime of lies and omissions.
But that's my opinion.
What's your opinion?
Well, of course, yeah, that's my opinion as well.
And as bad as the lies were, maybe worse was the standing ovation he got for those lies.
And that's the People's House, the U.S. Congress.
And I believe that it was sullied By his lies and by his being there and his being cheered for.
What is a genocide in which, according to Lancet, you probably saw that report.
It's a very well-respected medical research institution in London.
According to Lancet, probably at least 186,000 Palestinians have been killed so far since October 7th.
And the vast majority are women and children.
And now Gaza is number one in many, many terrible distinctions, the most maimed children in any conflict we know of, the most killed journalists, the most killed medical workers, the most killed UN workers.
This is a war against humanity.
And every day, hundreds of Palestinians are being killed.
And again, MOSI civilians.
You have tens of thousands of children that are now orphaned.
Maimed children who are orphaned.
What's going to happen with these children?
There's no plan for them.
As I said, I just got back from Egypt where about 100,000 Palestinians have fled.
And can I make a biblical reference for you?
I visited a church there in Cairo, Mike, which was built over the cave where the Holy Family had fled.
They fled Herod, remember that, to flight to Egypt.
From Palestine.
They were Palestinians.
Jesus was a Palestinian.
And they fled to Egypt, and they lived in this particular cave for three and a half months, and I visited a church that was built over that cave.
And of course, what struck me was, these Palestinians are fleeing Egypt now, or just like that Holy Family.
They're in the same situation.
They were fleeing the Holy Family Herod, who was killing the firstborn children.
And now these families are fleeing the Israeli army that's killing children in Gaza.
I mean, you can't have more of a biblical story.
Well, and yet, Dan, and one of the things that has been so confusing to me in all of this, I've had a horrified reaction to this, is that in America we have many, perhaps we would call them Christian Zionists, And they say that God is on Israel's side no matter what.
And when you bring up these issues, what about the rape and torture of the prisoners?
Well, God allows that.
They would say, what about the bombing of women and children?
God allows that.
What about IDF military snipers shooting doctors in Palestinian or Gazan hospitals that are trying to treat people?
Well, God allows that.
God's on Israel's side.
And there's this bizarre...
This almost, they've had this vaccination against logic or reason or even the word of God, by the way.
Right.
Because God would never approve of what Israel is doing.
I mean, in my opinion, of course, I have to say that.
But if you read the Old Testament, the biggest critic of Israel was God.
Right.
Right.
And also, yeah, and of course, all that, those notions ignore most of the New Testament, which, of course, In which Jesus said, you know, love God above all things and love your neighbors yourself.
Those are his two main commands.
And he talked about, of course, you know, the preferential treatment for the poor and the naked and the imprisoned.
And there's no more oppressed people in the world than the Palestinians.
What it also ignores, and I talk a lot about this in this book, I have a whole chapter on the persecution of Christians.
There are many Palestinian Christians.
I visited Bethlehem in December.
That was after the war had begun.
I went to Bethlehem where Jesus was born.
Of course, there's a church there, again, built over the cave that the Holy Family lived in when Jesus was born.
And almost everyone who lives in Bethlehem are Palestinians and they're Christians.
And in Gaza, there are Christians.
And there was an ancient Christian church there, but Israel just destroyed it.
And so this notion...
It's called Christian Zionism, that somehow the world is going to be made right when Israel takes over the Dome of the Rock.
It ignores the fact there are real human Christians in historic Palestine.
It ignores the fact that Jesus himself was Palestinian.
And one of the most...
Articulate advocates for the Palestinians is actually a Lutheran minister from Bethlehem that's been going around the country speaking.
He was just in Pittsburgh, you know, and he is very clear about the persecution of Christians per se in the West Bank, particularly in Jerusalem.
It is known that if you are a Christian walking down the street in Jerusalem, And you can be identified as such.
It's very common that you will be spat upon by Israelis.
And in fact, one of the Israeli ministers, in response to questions about that, said, well, yeah, that's a tradition.
Tradition?
Yeah, absolutely.
And people have the crosses they wear around their necks actually pulled from them.
But again, Israel and the powers that be in the U.S. have tried to make those Christians invisible.
Very few people even understand the idea that there are Christian Palestinians.
Can I just lift up my camera here?
Please.
You see the painting behind me.
First of all, the one, the orange one, of course, looks like the Holy Family, and that was done by a woman in Gaza.
She's Muslim, but even the Muslim Palestinians are very loved.
They're Christian roots.
And you'll see many crosses in the background of the orange picture.
And while you can't see it well, probably on your screen, many crosses in the background of the blue painting, which is the painting of the Dome of the Rock, which is at the Al-Aqsa compound.
The Christian heritage of the Palestinians is very revered by the Palestinians, whether they're Christians or they're not Christians.
They know this is deeply part of their history, and that's why Israel and the U.S. government doesn't want you to know about it.
Well, those paintings, from what I can see even through the camera, they are absolutely gorgeous.
And, you know, it's clear that this is art that is expression of the human experience beyond the palette of colors, the message of the resilience of the human spirit speaking through those paintings.
I am touched by it.
I wake up to these paintings every day, Mike.
They lift me up.
These particular ones were done by a woman named Misa.
The orange one with the family, it came from her home.
She carried it with the few possessions she had and her seven children, her husband, to a tent.
Egypt with it.
And then I finally bought it from her and sent it to me.
And Mike, I met her in Cairo two weeks ago.
And I brought her a paint set and some brushes.
And I try to encourage her, her art.
But in any case, this artist changed my life.
Can I just tell you, and I don't want to go off on a tangent, but...
No, this is a very important tangent.
Please, please go ahead, Sharon.
The Palestinian people, I was a fallen away Christian.
I was a fallen away Catholic.
The Palestinians have increased my faith, have brought me back to the faith.
Wow.
And not just Christian Palestinians, but Muslim ones.
Because of their devotion...
To Jesus and to Mary, even if they're Muslim.
Yes.
Jesus is seen as one of the three main prophets of the Muslim faith, which is Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad.
That's right.
Yes.
And anyways, you'll never find a kinder people than the Palestinians.
And that's the other thing.
They've been so vilified.
To the extent they're visible at all, they're portrayed as terrorist and hateful.
And it just couldn't be...
Anything different.
When I went to Bethlehem, a man, he's almost 80 years old, when he heard I wanted to go there, he insisted on driving me there from where I was staying in Ramallah.
It should only be about a half-hour drive, but because of all the checkpoints and the walls that Israel's built in to segregate the Palestinians from the Israelis, it took over three hours to get there.
It took four hours to get home.
But it was worth it.
It was a spiritual experience.
I did it during Advent in December.
And again, I can't tell you how much the Palestinians value that Christian heritage.
And when I got to the church, by the way, because it took so long and I was with an 80-year-old man who could barely walk up this hill, they were shutting off the lights of the church when we got in.
And I told the priest, I said, I've come here from the United States, thousands of miles.
Could you let me downstairs to see where Jesus was born?
And he quickly, he turned on his heels and he turned the lights back on and he said, you're welcome, go downstairs.
And that was an amazing thing, Mike.
Anyway, this is a history people need to know about.
Absolutely.
And that's why your book, I think, is so important.
Let me remind people here, I've got it brought up on Amazon, but it's available elsewhere.
It's called The Case for Palestine, Why It Matters and Why You Should Care.
I do want to ask you that direct question, why does it matter to the West?
But first, I have a favor to ask of you.
Perhaps you can connect me to someone.
I've been wanting to interview someone who endured the bombings in Gaza, someone who escaped and who lived through that.
I've been desperately wanting to interview someone like that.
We'll make it happen.
We'll make – in fact, I have someone in mind.
He was my student at the University of Pittsburgh.
He came here from Gaza for a year to study.
His name is Khalil.
He now lives in Cairo.
I saw him two weeks ago.
Really smart guy, an attorney from Gaza, and he fled with his family from the bombing.
He lived there for many months during the bombing.
He'd love to talk to you, and I'll set that up.
Okay, thank you so much, and I believe you have the way to contact our producer, so just use that same contact.
I would love to set that up, because the human stories and the stories of survival and resilience...
These are all being silenced as if they did not exist, which is the metaphor for what the corporate media and the U.S. government is doing, is trying to pretend that the Palestinian people do not exist or that they never existed and that their history is being memory-holed, wiped from our consciousness.
So it's not just a physical crime of genocide against civilians.
It is a crime of sanitizing history.
Yes, absolutely.
And I talk about that in the book.
The idea is not to only physically destroy the Palestinians as a people.
It's to destroy their memory that they ever existed.
And that's why in Gaza, the Israelis have destroyed every university, every mosque, every church.
They destroyed the Hall of Records.
They looted and destroyed all legal documents.
So imagine that.
The people who survive, they won't be able to prove ownership of their homes, of their land.
They won't have birth certificates or death certificates or marriage certificates.
And again, all of this is intentional so that these folks literally, there will be no documented record that they ever were.
And that is the game plan.
That is absolutely the game plan.
It's just the depth of evil behind this plan is just absolutely astonishing to me.
And so let me segue to my next question related to that.
What's so disturbing to me is...
That I know many, let's say, conservative politicians or members of Congress or senators or influencers in the United States who, from my point of view, appear to be very much correct on most of the issues that matter.
You know, let's have a protected border here.
Let's support freedom of speech.
Let's support the First Amendment, freedom of the press.
You know, these kinds of things.
Don't let the government search.
You know, Fourth Amendment, for example...
And they seem to be reasonable, rational people on all these issues.
And then October 7th happens, and these very same people, they lose their minds.
All of a sudden, reason and rationality are thrown out the window.
There are no more principles.
Even they claim to be people of faith, they throw out all the teachings of the Bible.
They just throw it out.
Now they're on team Zionist no matter what.
I feel like, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a world where people's brains got replaced with demons.
And I'm like, what happened?
Well, it's a bad religion.
It's the worship of a state, first of all, right?
That is not what the Bible tells us to do.
You worship God.
You don't worship a state, first of all.
But we have been so indoctrinated about what Israel is and that somehow the Israelis have the land because God gave it to them.
Again, ignoring the fact that there were people there to begin with and frankly that Palestinians and Jews and Christians were living peacefully there for a long time.
Those Jews were a very small minority there before 1948.
But there is a religiosity about it.
But again, I think it's bad religion.
And by the way, there's an interesting...
Ilan Pape, who's an Israeli, but very critical of Zionism in Israel, he says something which is very funny, but people should know about the people who talk about Israel.
He says, most of the Zionists do not believe in God, but they believe God gave them Israel.
Interesting.
A lot of it, you know, Netanyahu, he quotes scripture all the time, but he's not religious.
By the way, he's originally from, you know, his family is originally, I think, from Ukraine, and he studied in Philadelphia.
In fact, his family changed their name to make it sound more Israeli.
He's an imposter.
He's an imposter, which a lot of the Israelis are imposters in that way.
That's it.
It's built on so many lies, but the thing is those lies have been internalized.
People have a fervent belief in this project called Israel without really thinking about it much or looking into the details.
I'll be honest.
Until about 12 years ago, I hadn't known tons about I didn't know about Israel either, and the Palestinians.
I had a certain reflexive sympathy for the Palestinians, but I didn't know about the Nakba either, and I didn't know about a lot of the details.
You really have to go out of your way to find those details.
Once you do, though, it really will change your view of Israel, Palestine, and of the world.
Again, that's why I wrote this book.
I wanted to write a book that's accessible to all Americans.
Just to be clear, because our audience might ask, your religious faith is not rooted in Islam.
That's not your background.
No, I'm Catholic.
I was raised Catholic.
I went to Catholic schools through college.
I went to the University of Dayton, which is Marianist.
Maybe people don't know that, but that's a Catholic school.
I went to Catholic school throughout My life.
I even thought about being a priest at one time.
Yeah, no, I'm not Muslim, and my family's not.
My grandfather actually came from Slovakia.
He was a Catholic, came from Slovakia after World War I, settled in Cleveland.
So, yeah, from a very traditional Catholic family.
So getting back to the...
Well, thank you for answering that, by the way.
The title of your book, The Case from Palestine.
Now...
The United Nations currently does not recognize Palestine as a nation, but it granted recognition to Israel under now what we would consider to be some suspicious circumstances.
Given where things are headed right now, I would like your take on whether Well, let me insert a little bit of my own opinion here.
I believe that Netanyahu has put Israel as we know it today on a path of self-destruction.
And if Israel is to survive, I mean literally to survive as a nation, it radically needs to reject the Gavirs and the Galants and the Netanyahu.
That's my opinion.
I think Palestine cannot be destroyed But what are you saying about that and about Israel's possible future?
I think now practically and morally speaking, I think the only path ahead actually is a one-state solution that's multi-ethnic, multi-religious, Well, it's a great democracy.
Like ancient Greece was a great democracy, right?
It was a democracy for non-slaves and landholders.
And that's true with Israel.
If you are Jewish, And, by the way, non-Arab, because Arab Jews are second-class citizens.
African Jews are third-class citizens.
In fact, Ethiopian Jews were forcibly sterilized.
I talk about that in the book because they're black.
I mean, so it's an apartheid state.
And if you're a Christian or a Muslim-Palestinian living within what is known as Israel, You're a third-class citizen as well.
And, of course, if you live in the occupied territories, Gaza, the West Bank, Jerusalem, which, by the way, the International Court of Justice just said the occupation of those areas is illegal.
That's right.
You're not even human.
You are less than human.
Dan, this violates the basic human charter of the United Nations itself.
So how can the UN have granted this state recognition to Israel, and then Israel exists as an occupier, an apartheid occupier, in violation of the fundamental human rights described by the United Nations Charters?
How is that?
Yeah, well, it's a great question.
Well, what happened was, first of all, you had the Balfour Declaration of 1917, in which Britain just...
Declared there will be a state of Israel, though it did say the rights of the Palestinians should be respected.
And then in 1948, the UN passed a resolution also granting Jews the state of Israel.
However, the important caveat there, I mean, I think that was probably a mistake given, again, that at that point Jews were only a third of Israel population-wise and only owned about 1% of the population.
Real property there.
But what that resolution contemplated, very clearly, what it said was it was supposed to be 50% Palestinian and 50% Jewish, and it did not say that the Israelis could go in and take over Palestinian land and owns.
That was not the plan.
The plan was you can have your state, again, the land would be 50-50, 50% Palestinians, and then 50% Israeli.
But you go in there, you don't take over people's land and houses.
But that's exactly what the Israelis did.
And they took over much more land than that resolution contemplated.
So basically, you know, whether that resolution was a mistake or not, I mean, obviously it was motivated and somewhat by good intentions after the Holocaust.
Um, the world wanted to take care of Jewish people who've been persecuted in Europe.
But again, as I mentioned in the book, I mean, it is strange that in the end, if the Palestinians had had to pay them back and they didn't do anything to them, right?
It was the Germans.
That's right.
And that's the strange part of it, that somehow the Palestinians have not only borne the responsibility for the Holocaust, they've even now somehow strangely borne the guilt, right?
Where you're almost led to believe somehow the Palestinians had something to do with that when they didn't.
But the point is, the Israelis, Ben-Gurion and Menachem Begin and others, they went way beyond what was contemplated in that resolution.
And at that point, I think the UN... Regretted what they did, and they quickly passed a resolution saying, oh, well, the Palestinians have a right to return.
They have a right to go back to their land, a right to go back to their homes.
You shouldn't have taken those things.
And every year, the UN has passed a resolution saying exactly that, but it's never been enforced, and the Israelis have continued to take more and more land to the point, you know, now tiny guys are It's being completely destroyed and maybe completely taken over.
And the West Bank too.
The West Bank is not getting a lot of news these days, but there's a lot of violence being done to the Palestinians in the West Bank and a lot of destruction of their homes and taking over homes and land there.
Well, it has been very clear that one of the key goals of Netanyahu in particular was the full displacement of the Palestinian people out of Gaza, and then the raising of Gaza, the mass bombing, destruction, bulldozing, and then probably the claiming and reconstruction in Jewish hands there.
And so far, if you were to say that those were his series of goals, Netanyahu has, in his mind, succeeded at many of those milestones.
However, the cost for doing so, I believe, but you're the expert, I'd like your opinion on this, is that I believe that surrounding nations, look at Lebanon, even Egypt to some extent, but most definitely Iran and other nations, Syria, Afghanistan, and so on, And Turkey, let's not forget Turkey, but they have in their own way decided that Israel, under this leadership, is incompatible with human civilization.
That this cannot be allowed to continue to exist in this fashion, in the way that Israel relates to its supposed neighbors.
It doesn't work, it's not sustainable, and something has to be done about it.
That's probably what these surrounding nations are thinking, in my mind.
But again, you're the expert, so...
They are thinking that, but it's not just them.
I think most of the world's population has come to that conclusion.
I mean, you now have this week in the Knesset, which is the Israeli parliament, you had parliamentarians arguing that it is just to rape Palestinian people.
I couldn't believe that.
Incredible stuff.
You are now seeing videos.
You may have seen them.
I do.
Videos have come out of Israelis gang-raping Palestinians, and now it's just a free-for-all, right?
I mean, when a society comes to that point where it's even debating whether you can rape people, it's not just a matter of hostile nations that might take Israel down.
I think it's going to collapse from within.
You cannot run a society.
That thinks that.
And they just took a poll in Israel and a plurality, something like 40% of Israelis to 46% believe, again, that it is okay to rape Palestinians.
See, that's extraordinary.
But isn't this also the pattern of history when an occupying colonizer...
It's the same thing.
Eventually the occupier has to turn to more and more coercion, force, and control.
And sooner or later there is resistance.
And the resistance overpowers the occupier and then it ends.
But I mean, it seems like Israel still thinks that this is, you know, the 1960s or 70s and they can just function as an apartheid nation.
And they're wrong.
They're going to lose this.
Yes, and actually I do think a lot of Israelis know that.
I was listening to an Israeli commentator the other day who was saying that, look, There's a certain fatalism now on the streets of Israel.
They even recognize that this is not sustainable.
Wow.
First of all, 500,000 Israelis have fled Israel since October 7.
And it's a country of only 10 million people.
So 500,000 is a lot of people.
That is 5%, right?
Yeah.
That's huge.
And also, I'm sorry to interrupt, but companies are no longer investing in Israel.
Yes.
Because of the conflict, Intel canceled a major chip manufacturing plant.
The ports are not functional because of the Yemenis and the Red Sea blockade.
Israel is collapsing economically, if nothing else.
Yeah, 43,000 companies in Israel went under since October 7th.
Wow.
All the major airlines are backing out of flying into Tel Aviv Airport, which is their only airport.
No, it's collapsing.
And again, it is collapsing from within.
And again, I think these acts of desperation, this really violence on a level that is almost pornographic, I think is an expression of That they know their days are numbered and now it's not even about survival, it's about pure revenge now and pure hatred.
Someone does need to step in and stop this.
This is being broadcast every day on social media.
We're seeing children die and be maimed every day on social media.
This has to end.
continues to arm this and send 2,000-pound bombs to Israel to use on an urban population.
Israel's already dropped many more tonnage of bombs than Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined.
That's true.
That's true.
That's a shocking statistic.
Yeah, I mean, this just can't go on.
It can't go on.
But then the question is, who stops it?
Now, clearly, Israel itself has to be stopped by an outside force.
Internally, there's no mechanism for them to stop themselves.
Clearly, the United States, which is bought by, I would call it, money laundering, kickbacks, and bribery of legislators.
So the U.S. won't stop Israel.
So the U.K. won't stop Israel.
The UN won't stop Israel.
So who's left?
Who's going to stop Israel?
I think the big question mark is Turkey.
Turkey is signaling they may step in.
And that would be put the U.S. in a very strange position because Turkey's a NATO country.
That's right.
Well, for now, for the moment.
The biggest military in all of NATO. I think one of those countries may step in.
Egypt, I can tell you the mood on the streets is something has to be done.
You know, Egypt was the protector of Gaza from about 1950 to 1967 until the Six Days War.
The Egyptians and Palestinians have a very close relationship.
Yes.
I think one of these countries may step in and just say, look, this can't go on.
Well, Dan, isn't there a very simple step in that direction that Turkey could do, which is to shut off the pipelines and energy supply to Israel?
Yes, absolutely.
Turkey could do that.
Yes, absolutely.
So why do you think Erdogan is not doing that?
Is it just too lucrative to earn from the pipelines?
Well, that's part of it, though I'm sure he could find other...
Other customers.
I think some of it is that he always plays both sides of the fence.
He doesn't want to lose support from the U.S. and NATO. That's part of it.
And yeah, I mean, a lot of these countries, Jordan in particular and Egypt up to this point, have acted very shamefully by continuing to really shield Israel during this whole crisis.
But again, the easiest thing to happen, again, the most non-violent way for this to end is simply for the White House to say, Netanyahu, you ain't getting any more guns and ammunition.
That's it.
It would end tomorrow.
It would end tomorrow because they're getting almost all the guns and ammunition from the United States.
And that is the shameful part.
And I would say to your guests, if there's anything, if you care about this issue, the one thing you should do is put pressure on your legislators.
To stop funding this war.
I mean, and we have a moral responsibility to do that.
That's our tax dollars that are funding this conflict.
That's right.
That's right.
A very critical action item.
But even here in Texas, we have Senator Ted Cruz.
And he tweeted out the other day that we are unconditionally, I think he said this, or it's close to what he said, we unconditionally support Israel.
And I replied to him on Twitter.
I said, even with the rape and torture, even with the bombing of women and children, even with all the lies and violence and killing of doctors and bombing of refugee camps and churches and mosques and universities, even with that?
Like, Senator, you don't speak for Texans when you say there's unconditional support for Israel no matter what crimes they carry out against humanity.
I'm sorry.
I mean, we must call out our senators on this very issue, even if we agree with them on other things, to be clear.
You know, First Amendment, Second Amendment, in the case of Senator Cruz, he's very strong on many important issues.
But on this, my God, loss is marbles.
Yeah, thanks for saying that, Mike.
This is not a political issue.
This is not a matter of whether you're Democrat or Republican.
This is a human issue.
This is a moral issue.
And anyone who supports this will have to answer for that.
I believe so.
There will be a reckoning, a moral reckoning for this.
You know, you've seen that meme, I'm sure, and I totally agree with it.
If you wonder what you would do as a German during the Holocaust, you know now because you're doing it.
That's exactly right.
Now, there's another risk to this, and I'm not sure, I haven't read your book yet, so I don't know if you covered this, but it's very clear that Netanyahu is attempting to wrangle the United States into a military conflict with Iran.
And my fear, I have a lot of contacts in the military and former military intelligence and so on.
And what they tell me is that the United States, an aircraft carrier, for example, could be easily destroyed by Iran.
And that would send a very devastating message to the whole world to say that the era of U.S. dominance in the world It has come to an end.
Because if you can't project sea power through aircraft carriers and protect your own navy from being taken out by not just Iran, but even the Yemenis, or frankly, Hezbollah has anti-ship missiles at this point.
But I think there's a very real risk that this could be the thing that destroys the global credibility of coercion of the United States military, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
It's already destroyed, by the way, the diplomatic and the moral prestige of the United States.
I mean, let's be clear about that.
But yes, I think it could also, as you say, destroy its ability to power project in the world and in the region.
I hope it doesn't come to that.
I hope it doesn't come to the point where the U.S. is directly...
It's already involved in this war.
It's already up to the hilt in this war.
I hope it doesn't come to the point where you have U.S. soldiers on the ground fighting in Lebanon.
And we have to remember, you know, I'm old enough to remember the first war in Lebanon in 1982 when Reagan sent Marines to Lebanon and he ended up withdrawing them after 400-some were killed in an attack by Hezbollah.
That sort of thing could end up happening again.
We shouldn't have anything to do with this.
We should not be sending troops there.
We should not be sending our Navy there.
But we are.
As we speak, that's being done.
The Navy, we are sending more naval ships to the Middle East.
We are preparing for a regional war that no one wants.
And the other thing that people need to keep in mind, Is that Israel has between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads.
They're the only country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons, and they're undeclared, by the way.
We know they have them, but Israel doesn't admit to them.
And, of course, the big fear that people have is that they'll use them in this conflict.
Yes, there's a very clear escalation ladder that leads to that.
Yes.
And even they may be willing to, some people talk about the Samson option.
Have you heard about that?
Yes, absolutely.
Sam, of course, pushed down the walls of the temple, destroying the temple, but of course it fell on himself.
So the idea is that Israel may be willing to use them even if it knows it will be destroyed by doing so, right?
There's a good chance it would suffer some of the radioactive fallout.
Well, absolutely.
But the world would condemn Israel beyond anything we've ever seen if they were the first to initiate nuclear weapons.
And also, I believe from some of the other interviews I've done and discussions that Israel's likely first targets would be Iran's oil fields.
Which would cause devastating economic consequences to the West.
So it's not just the Samson option bringing down Israel.
It would bring down the UK and America's economy would be devastated by that act as well.
I mean, Netanyahu could destroy multiple Western nations.
Oh, yes.
And by the way, he's made statements to make it clear.
He would...
very happily do that.
He really doesn't care about that.
And yet we already are probably in the midst of a recession.
Our stock market is tanking.
The world is on the precipice of an economic disaster.
And the sort of thing you just mentioned would push us over the edge.
For sure.
The White House needs to do something to stop this.
It could easily do it.
And it is just shameful that for 10 months they have pretended to care and they've done nothing to stop this.
It is absolutely shameful.
There's no political willingness in the U.S. to stand for righteousness at this point.
No, absolutely no.
But there are changes coming there as well.
One other thing I want to ask you, and I regret that we're almost out of time, so we must have you back because this has been such a fascinating discussion.
Your book, again, The Case for Palestine is the book, and I encourage our viewers to check this out.
Is there an audiobook version?
I'm curious yet.
Not yet, but how it works is if enough people buy the book, they'll make it into an audio version.
Hopefully it will happen.
But it is on Kindle.
It is on Kindle.
Okay, here's a question I have for you, and again, I don't know how much you get into the military side of this, but just as an observation, and I'd love your reaction, as someone who has studied history recently, The Palestinian fighters of 2024,
watching the videos, watching their physical stature, watching their determination, their passion, and their courage, regardless of what anybody thinks, if you're watching, I don't care if you love or hate Palestine, but the Palestinian fighter reminds me of U.S. Marines in 1945 storming Iwo Jima.
It's the same kind of determined, scrappy, strong man who's fighting for something that he believes in and who's willing to die for his cause.
The Hamas fighters and Hezbollah fighters should not be underestimated, in my opinion, regardless of what side you're on, whereas I see the IDF as, in much of the case of the U.S. military, they've become complacent, they've become more of a woke military, they don't have the toughness, life has been too easy for them.
Do you see what I'm getting at here?
It's a very...
Yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, you have in Hamas, of Hamas fighters, you have guys running around in flip-flops fighting tanks.
If you want to talk about David and Goliath, it's very clear who the David is, and it's not the one that waves the Star David flag.
It's absolutely incredible.
And it actually reminds me of a big Godfather fan, and the Godfather Part 2 reminds me of Michael's in Cuba.
And remember, he sees the gorillas take out a captain, but he takes himself out in the process, and he tells Hyman Roth, he says, I saw this today.
And Hyman says, well, what does that tell you?
He says they can win.
Right.
And that's exactly what you're seeing.
If a guy in flip-flops takes on an armored vehicle...
I'm betting on the guy in flip-flops.
See, no kidding, because very often the IDF soldiers are hiding inside the armored vehicles.
They don't understand modern urban warfare, it seems to me, as an observer.
But like you say, the Hamas fighters wearing flip-flops, holding like a tank bomb, they run up, stuff the bomb under the armor, turn back around, And detonate it while they're screaming, and it's like, holy smokes!
I have never seen such acts of bravery, perhaps since World War II. Yeah.
No, it's incredible.
And again, the thing is with the Israeli military forces is, up until October 7th, the only...
The experience any of these soldiers has was beating up kids in the West Bank.
I mean, that's the truth of it, right?
They're not used to fighting hardened, battle-hardened people.
That's true.
That's true.
Well, Dan, I want to thank you for taking the time today, and I hope you're okay with me.
I just want to offer just a moderate prayer and blessing here for peace.
I would embrace that, yes.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to pray officially, but just a prayer, a blessing for world peace and peace.
And I don't mean that in a cliche kind of way like Miss America or whatever.
I'm just saying, can we stop killing people, please?
Can we stop the bloodshed?
Can we find a way to live in peace?
Can we respect people of other skin colors, religions, ethnicities?
Is that possible in our world today, or must we live in a world of bombs and suffering?
I just call for peace, and I believe you share that, Dan, and I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts with us today.
I'm very grateful to you, Mike.
I say amen to what you just said.
I say that prayer every day.
I go light a candle in church and I say that prayer.
And I'm very grateful to you.
Very honored to be on your show.
Thank you, Mike.
Well, I'm honored to have you on.
And please connect us with someone we can interview who survived that.
And if possible, if we can help the woman who is the painter...
Yes.
You can buy her paintings for one.
Yeah, absolutely.
I can send you the link to her.
Well done.
How fast can we make that happen?
You can do it almost immediately.
She has a brand new painting.
Okay.
All right.
I'll send you the link to her Facebook.
That's how you do it.
You message her and she'll be glad to sell you a painting.
Absolutely.
Okay, we're going to make that happen.
Maybe we'll put it in the studio here.
But whatever the case, Dan, God bless you for all of your work, and we will speak again soon.
Sounds great, Mike.
You made my day.
Thank you.
All right, take care.
And for all of you watching, God bless you all as well.
Please share in the spirit of peace and ending wars, ending the military industrial complex, ending the machine of death and profit that sadly drives so much of our modern politics.
We, the people of the world, can be neighbors with each other.
We can live in peace.
We don't need to fight and kill in order to exist as a civilization.
In fact, if we continue down this path, God bless you all.
Take care.
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