Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

Dec. 11, 2024 - Lionel Nation

01:30:10

Jay-Z's Not About to Take This Lawsuit Sitting Down: This Is War!

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	When uncertainty strikes, peace of mind is priceless.
	Dirty Man Underground Safes protects what matters most.
	Discreetly designed, these safes are where innovation meets reliability, keeping your valuables close yet secure.
	Be ready for anything.
	Use code DIRTY10 for 10% off today and take the first step towards safeguarding your future.
	Dirty Man's Safe.
	Because protecting your family starts with protecting what you treasure.
	The storm is coming.
	Markets are crashing.
	Banks are closing.
	When the economy collapses, how will you survive?
	You need a plan.
	Cash, gold, bitcoin.
	Dirty man safes keep your assets hidden underground at a secret location ready for any crisis.
	Don't wait for disaster to strike.
	Get your Dirty Man safe today.
	Use promo code DIRTY10 for 10% off your order.
	Disaster can strike when least expected.
	Wildfires, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes.
	They can instantly turn your world upside down.
	Dirty Man underground safes is a safeguard against chaos.
	Hidden below, your valuables remain protected no matter what.
	Prepare for the unexpected.
	Use code DIRTY10 for 10% off and secure peace of mind for you and your family.
	Dirty man safe.
	When disaster hits, security isn't optional.
	Hello, everybody.
	Welcome.
	And this is another huge show in our marathon tonight.
	We have got Lionel back, ex-prosecutor, talking about Jay-Z, the allegation, the huge news.
	I woke up today.
	Just all over the place.
	Jay-Z, Jay-Z, Jay-Z.
	And Lionel, I can tell by the expression he's got on his face, he's going to bring us back down to earth.
	Well, a couple of things.
	Here in New York, we have two cases.
	We had this wild assassin, this CEO, gunned down by this mysterious person.
	And we just found out the guy.
	He was found at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania.
	And some guy says, I think that's the...
	And the police are saying, we did it!
	All this great police work.
	He didn't do anything.
	Somebody said, I think that's the guy.
	That's number one.
	And second, we had this case of this Marine who had put this assailant in a carotid restraint on a bus, on a subway, excuse me.
	He died and he was charged with, in essence, homicide.
	He was acquitted.
	So I've got that and the mad killer.
	And then last night, Jay-Z, oh my god!
	And Sean, people are like, Jay-Z!
	What do you mean?
	That son of a...
	Get him!
	Get him for what?
	You know!
	What?
	You know, Sean, let's talk about the epistemology of this.
	There's something that they say in medical school and others in school.
	How do you know what you know?
	How do you know it?
	Why do you know it?
	This is the scrum.
	Do we have proof positive?
	I'm not being devil's advocate, but do we have proof positive of anything that Jay-Z has ever Ever done!
	To anyone!
	Ever!
	Not hints!
	And I'm going to go one step further.
	With the exception of Diddy beating the hell out of Cassie, which is just ridiculous, and really looking weird because of the Justin Bieber thing.
	Do we know anything?
	Can we say, you Diddy, you did this!
	Can we?
	Now, we've got people who say, well, listen, ask yourself this question.
	How do I know what I know?
	Now, you know, listen, we're not kids.
	We've been around, see?
	Nothing's going to surprise us.
	We're not going to put any, put it this way, I wouldn't bet against it happening.
	But I live in a world of proof.
	I'm a lawyer, I'm a prosecutor, but I say...
	It's, you know, say what you want about Sean Adwood.
	I'm sure you've heard some disgusting things about Sean.
	Sure, you've heard the story about him lathering up his nether regions with brine shrimp and squatting over a goldfish bowl.
	Sure, you've heard that.
	But can you prove it?
	I don't think so.
	How do you know what you know?
	How do we really know it?
	Jay-Z is saying, oh, this is terrific.
	They're shaking me down.
	Who's this Busby guy?
	You better pay up or what?
	I don't know what you're talking about.
	All right, that's it.
	We're going to amend your complaint.
	Wait a minute, what?
	And this one point, did you remember this particular line?
	Did you catch this?
	The lawyer said, we didn't ask for a penny.
	We wanted confidential mediation or something.
	What?
	What does that even mean?
	I'm asking you, I don't know what the hell that means.
	I don't want money.
	You don't want money?
	I want confidential mediation.
	What the hell is that?
	I want subterranean reconciliation.
	What?
	What does it mean?
	You don't want money?
	I think you want money.
	I think you want money.
	Is there anything Jay-Z should be, I don't want to do your job, should be worried about that could or would have him brought in?
	Sean, 24 years ago?
	24 years ago?
	2000?
	I don't know how you old, but I've got shoes that are 24 years old.
	What are you talking about?
	24 years?
	Do you remember the VMA?
	Yeah, probably.
	Do you remember this?
	No.
	Who is this unknown, unnamed woman?
	Who is this Jane Doe?
	Do I get to talk to her?
	Maybe.
	Maybe not.
	I don't know.
	How do you know?
	We have in our country, by virtue of this wonderful thing called the U.S. Constitution, regarding criminal cases, symbols a little bit different, but the theory behind the right to confront your accuser.
	Where was I?
	This was before 9-11.
	Bill Clinton was president.
	She was 13 years old.
	This woman's 37 years old today.
	If she walked in, he goes, who's that?
	That's the woman you whatever did.
	Where are you?
	When did I do this?
	What happened?
	And I want you to know the facts.
	Did you go to the hospital?
	Is there any corroboration?
	I did what to you?
	And if you said you were sedated, yes, I took something.
	So what do you remember?
	How do you remember me?
	Must not have been that much of a sedation.
	Don't give me that look, Atwood.
	I know what you're thinking.
	You're not going to pull that crap with me the way you said to make these poor people go crazy spilling your guts.
	Anything else?
	I kid, of course.
	I love you.
	Lionel, how come it's a civil case and not a criminal law?
	It could turn into a criminal law.
	Because Busby wants money.
	Nothing wrong with that because he's a civil lawyer.
	He's a personal injury lawyer.
	He's suing for money.
	He's not a prosecutor.
	And if they...
	Good luck with this one.
	You want to bring a case against him for, what, 2000?
	Year 2000?
	And the statutes of limitation.
	Now, I know we had an extension, but let me tell you something.
	They did it now with Diddy.
	And Diddy's going to say, they're coming after me.
	They're coming after me.
	This isn't about me.
	This is about money.
	This is about us.
	What do you think?
	I'm some stupid whatever it is?
	Now, of course, let's see what happens.
	He's got to be very careful.
	Don't get into a pissing match on social media.
	Don't do this.
	That's one thing I don't understand.
	I don't get this.
	So, oh, this is going to be good, my friend.
	What about, Mr. Lionel, if the victims have evidence of visiting the hospital and the police?
	Sure.
	Great.
	Wonderful.
	Good.
	You go to the hospital?
	Yep.
	If somebody said to you 24 years ago, Sean Atwood stabbed me.
	What?
	You stabbed me.
	I've got records from the hospital.
	Damn if you've got a videotape of it.
	I didn't do it.
	I went to the police.
	Okay.
	I didn't do it.
	What does that have to do with anything?
	Go ahead.
	Bring on the case.
	Bring it on.
	I still want to have somebody tee it up.
	Go ahead.
	Call your first witness.
	37-year-old.
	Where were you in the year 2000?
	And you were 13 years old?
	Now, let me explain to you.
	First, Sean, I don't have a dog in this fight, one way or another.
	I don't.
	But I want to show you the other side of it.
	And to be honest with you, this may really surprise me.
	As a lawyer, I don't care if you did it or not.
	Can they prove it?
	If I'm the plaintiff's lawyer, I'm bringing a lawsuit.
	Can I prove it?
	And if I'm defending you, can they prove it?
	I'm not in here to put you up as some kind of a saint, but I'm going to say they better be able to prove this thing.
	So let me ask you a question.
	You're 13. She's got to take the stand.
	You were 13 years old.
	How did you get into this?
	How did you get in?
	How do we know?
	Do you have any...
	And I'm sure there was the discovery process where you get to find out ahead of time what information they have.
	You get to find out what information they have, which is critical.
	And by the way, we talk about this all the time at Lionel Nation.
	Just want to let you know.
	Let me get that little plug in there, Sean, because this is the hottest show in show business right here.
	So how did you get into 13 years old?
	Who let you in?
	How did you get in?
	You were 13. Did you show an ID?
	Did you have a fake ID?
	Oh, you snuck your way in there?
	Did somebody grab you off the street and throw you in the back of a van and give you, like, one of these boring identity kind of a way to incapacitate you?
	Were you wrapped up and handcuffed and brought you in?
	No.
	You came there, didn't you?
	And you had to ask people, did you ask limousine drivers, how did I get in?
	How do you get in?
	Where's the party?
	With all these other people.
	There were thousands of people wanting to get backstage, including you.
	Where were your parents?
	Where were your parents?
	You're 13 years old?
	What did you look like?
	You got a picture?
	If she looks...
	Now remember, in the United States, they call it statutory...
	Can't say that word, but it means that it's called liability without fault.
	Your knowledge of her age means nothing.
	If she went to you and said, no, no, Sean, please, here's my identification, fake.
	Here's my passport, fake.
	Here's the corroboration.
	Here's the sign, Buckingham Palace, swearing to, all of it fake.
	You said, well, I think I've done everything I could.
	Doesn't matter.
	Liability without fault.
	No reason.
	Did you intend to engage with her?
	Yes, that's it.
	We also extended in law to things like explosives, wild animals.
	Liability.
	Strict liability.
	Something goes wrong.
	I did everything correct when I detonated those fireworks.
	I did everything.
	Sorry.
	No, but you don't understand.
	I'm licensed.
	Sorry.
	I took down the whole neighborhood by accident.
	And that wild animal.
	I'm a zookeeper.
	I've got a wild leopard and it got loose.
	Sorry.
	No, you don't understand.
	So that's liability without fault.
	So what's your take on this, Sean?
	Don't give me that look.
	What do you think?
	What do your people say?
	So my take is that I think you're right about evidence.
	With these historical allegations, it always is going to boil down to he said, she said, unless there's some kind of hospital report or police report or something else to back it up.
	But the sad thing is, you know, if someone's 13, they've lied to the parents, they've run off and done this thing, they probably don't have the wherewithal to go to the hospital and do police reports and things like that unless the parents...
	Absolutely!
	Now, what about this?
	Again, let's assume we're sitting there and this jury's listening to us and they're asking all kinds of questions.
	What's going on?
	So, imagine you're Jay-Z.
	And he said, first of all, this was 24 years ago.
	How old is he?
	What was he?
	A young guy?
	He was in his 20s?
	How old is he?
	50 now?
	50, whatever?
	55. 55, okay.
	So he was, what, 20, 31 years old, right, at the time?
	30?
	Young, 30?
	Making money?
	Chicks left and right if he said, it was great!
	Being Jay-Z, do you have any idea what this is?
	Oh my God!
	Women throwing them!
	I had to get security to keep the women off of me.
	It's incredible!
	And I loved it.
	Kristoff getting drunk.
	We did drugs.
	I'm no saint.
	I did it.
	I walked into this place.
	The lights are not exactly bright on Broadway.
	No, but you walk in and there's all these people there and women and...
	Frankly, everybody kind of looks.
	I'm a little drunk.
	Everybody looks the same.
	I can't tell 13, 18. I don't know what's going on.
	But I don't remember her at all.
	And I sure as hell never would involve myself in drugging or forcing myself on anyone.
	I don't have to.
	And I'm not going to do it with Diddy, all due respect.
	And I'm not going to do it with some unknown woman.
	I don't understand.
	No.
	But you've got to understand this world we live in.
	It's a jungle.
	Left and right.
	So what happens when more people start coming forward against Jay-Z now?
	Good.
	Oh, they will.
	They're not just money.
	This.
	That's an old joke.
	Oh, once you smell money.
	Oh, man.
	Oh, come on.
	Look, I don't know about you, about the UK, but in our country...
	Are you injured?
	Do you want to be injured?
	Have you ever thought about being injured?
	Have you dreamed about being injured?
	Would you like to be injured?
	Call me.
	888-PAIN.
	Are you in pain?
	I'll get you the money you need.
	You know, I want your Sean Atwood lawyers, and they told me I didn't have a case.
	I made $25 million.
	Phones ring.
	Hello?
	Yes.
	Can I get just a...
	Oh.
	Were you at a party?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Has anything happened to you?
	24 years ago.
	Now remember, just because it happened a long time ago doesn't mean it didn't happen.
	There are kids right now who are themselves the victims of the most horrendous of behaviors and horrible events between parents or whatever happened when they were kids.
	So the length of time didn't mean anything.
	And for all you know, this...
	Woman said, I've been telling people forever and nobody's listened to me.
	That could very well be the case.
	I'm not putting my money on it.
	But why now?
	Why now?
	What are you waiting for?
	Why wouldn't you just say, you know what, let's just slap it on.
	And when you get a letter from somebody that says, you know, in essence, what Diddy is saying is, I'm sorry, Jay-Z is saying is, pay up.
	Or we're going to sue you.
	He's trying to make this as an extortion.
	Some kind of, like, you're being ham-handed.
	I mean, it's a brilliant way of handling it.
	And his lawyer?
	Oh, good.
	Spiro?
	Great.
	Do you see what he did with Piers Morgan?
	And our friend?
	Okay?
	Let me tell you, Piers, they just...
	But you better take that down now.
	So he's kind of ready to go.
	And remember, not in any way casting aspersions on anyone.
	But as we say in the South, if you don't have a pot to piss in and you're judgment-proof, you can sue me all you want.
	I don't care.
	Why do I care?
	All I know is I'm famous.
	I'm not casting aspersions.
	But it's one thing for you to go on and say, oh, yeah.
	If I said to you, Sean Atwood is involved in Luciferian animal sacrifice and vivisection, I'm going to sue you.
	Sue this!
	I got your suit right here.
	I got nothing.
	Sue me!
	But just spell my name right.
	So I'm going to go on.
	So this is the balance.
	You know, you've got to figure out.
	So we're going to go after people who do have the money.
	So it's fascinating.
	All right, a few things, Lionel.
	So first of all, we commend you for you and your wife's tremendous work with people who have survived the human transportation and had these horrible things happen to them.
	But through that work, surely you are aware that the trauma of when this happens, sometimes they have to reach adulthood.
	And process it.
	Absolutely.
	And be inspired by other people coming forward.
	And what is wrong with them getting money at all?
	Anyway, if they've gone through these horrible things, they deserve this money.
	You're telling me right now?
	Of course there is.
	Of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
	I got one for you.
	Sometimes kids cannot excuse away...
	For example...
	I know this is a fact.
	A kid is born, suffers medical negligence.
	I knew one person, I swear to God, she looked like this.
	And I said, you know, what happened?
	Well, he was born, but it was a family doctor.
	And they didn't sue.
	And I've got to go through this because we can't sue Doc Jacobs.
	But look what they did.
	Okay.
	So now this child later on has to wait to the age of 18 or majority to bring a case.
	And every day, every day of that discomfort, every day, that means something.
	That's worth something.
	And believe me, if they could go back and change this, they'd say, I don't want enough money.
	I want you to fix this.
	But if money is the only thing to accommodate for my pain and suffering, the fact that I never was able to live a regular life, the fact that, of course, I'm not saying that of course there is.
	But take that situation and say, hey, wait a minute.
	Didn't I?
	Aren't you the one?
	You were hitting a cab accident, were you?
	Yeah.
	Wait a minute.
	You weren't.
	You're making this up.
	Okay.
	But does that mean that, well, doesn't a person have the right to do?
	Yes, but you're not that person.
	So you're right.
	If indeed this is the case, that is.
	But all of a sudden, now you've got to ask yourself this question.
	Remember.
	Everybody has a right in court.
	If somebody comes forward and you have two victims, one says, every single day of my life, I remember the thing with Diddy and Jay-Z, and I was waiting, waiting for this moment.
	Okay, fine.
	As opposed to, you know what?
	I heard there was, you know, I went to a Diddy.
	I went to a Diddy.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	So, how do you blend these two?
	I don't know.
	How do you tell the legitimate from the not?
	Lawyers do their best to try to sift through this.
	But listen, the more cases...
	Let me give you an example.
	We had in New York this case which basically removed the statute of limitations.
	People were bringing lawsuits against Catholic churches, against priests they had who were dead.
	This is 50 years ago.
	But let me tell you something.
	When you've got St. Aloysius Catholic Church or boys' school and you're saying, he's dead?
	Yep.
	Father Flanagan, he's dead.
	There's a million dollar settlement.
	It's almost like a class action.
	I don't know if you have them in the UK, but you get these things.
	Did you buy this?
	Did you go to this store?
	There's a class action suit.
	Would you like to opt in?
	You get 30 cents, but the lawyer gets a gazillion.
	For having 10 million plaintiffs.
	So some people do that.
	And then people also say, well, why shouldn't I do something?
	Why shouldn't I?
	Who does this guy think he is?
	I'm going to teach him.
	I don't know.
	When the lawsuits come in, they all look alike.
	So I'm not suggesting anybody's lying.
	I'm not suggesting anything.
	I'm suggesting if I'm given the case of representing Jay-Z.
	First thing I'm going to do is say, 24 years ago?
	Yeah, but you don't understand.
	It was a different story.
	24 years ago.
	Did you ever take your case to anybody else?
	No.
	But all of a sudden, they want to take your case now.
	That's interesting.
	Now, if the jury says, remember, I'm trying to cast doubt, and I'm trying to make the jury think, I don't know about this.
	And it also is a very good question.
	Doesn't Jay-Z deserve his Crudean court?
	Is he supposed to just roll over?
	Because, okay, you're right.
	I don't know.
	But what I want to know is, what do people know?
	See, Sean, why do we think he's guilty?
	Why do we not like him?
	Are they jealous?
	Is this a scrum?
	Is this Gustave Le Bon?
	Is this some weird murmuration?
	Some crowd?
	Hostility?
	What do we know?
	Maybe you know more than I do.
	That's what I find fascinating.
	Well, people like Jaguar appear to be prescient in calling these things, and then more evidence or more cases arise to show that what she predicted was going to happen has happened in this case.
	I mean, it's just starting, possibly.
	Could be, but that's not it.
	There's something that happens more.
	It's not a question of her, and she's an eloquent speaker to be sure.
	It's not the fact that she is so persuasive, alone.
	There is something that happens in the crowd.
	Pitchforks and torch.
	The crowds that yell to some poor soul on a ledge, jump!
	We act in a way like Gustave Le Bon says.
	We, changing the subject, In New York, I told you, there was this CEO, this head of a big insurance company.
	He's gunned down in the middle of it by this guy who has a hood and the girls think he's handsome.
	And people were taking his side.
	And this scrum like, yeah!
	Get those rat bastard CEOs!
	Yeah!
	And you could hear this like, wait a minute.
	This guy had a family.
	I don't care!
	This is too much fun to say.
	We get caught up in...
	You ever seen starlings move like birds?
	It's called a murmuration.
	We get into this.
	And then TMZ and Harvey Levin.
	And then we got this one.
	The latest.
	Diddy.
	He's in jail.
	Is he gonna get out?
	Is he threatening people?
	And pretty soon you go, yeah, get that son of a bitch.
	And it just happens.
	And we love to hate people.
	That's as great, and how the mighty have fallen.
	Who does that think he is?
	Jay-Z with that Beyoncé, do you?
	And what's interesting here, now, let me go a step further.
	This happens to be the creme de la creme of the Democrats, the Joe Biden, the Kamala.
	This was who they paid Beyoncé, what, $2 million to show up and say, hey, how are you?
	That was it.
	If you bring this down, let me go back a little bit more.
	I want to pose something to you.
	Does the fact that this is so interesting, is it because And they're rich!
	You don't think...
	I mean, come on.
	Look at all the coverage we did of the Jeffrey case.
	They were predominantly white and rich.
	That was nothing compared to that.
	This is different.
	Because those cases probably did not involve underage as much as just embarrassing a lot of weirdos who went, you know what I mean?
	I don't know, because we never know.
	There's no, that case is going away.
	This is a different story.
	This is a different tenor.
	This was a group of people that say, well, you know, Bill Clinton, and I'm not saying Bill Clinton, but Prince Andrew, and they were out there, and they were, well, you know, that's what they do.
	Okay, that must have been embarrassing.
	I don't remember the allegations of young people as much as this.
	But this is different.
	But this is.
	Who do these people think they are?
	With their rap music and the teeth and the hair.
	I don't even understand what the hell they're talking.
	I don't want to say it's racism, because I hate that term.
	But there's a sense of, I don't like these people.
	They're acting rich.
	They're a bunch of no-talent thugs.
	And it's about time that nobody's going to say that.
	But they love this.
	Because who do these people think they are?
	Let me tell you something.
	The black community.
	I'm going to go one step further.
	What if I told you that hip-hop was designed specifically to erase, degrade, and erode the black family, the woman, self-respect, mobilization, identity, that it was created?
	I'm just saying.
	Created by a bunch of evil people to bring out the worst in the black community.
	To highlight thugs and shooting and gangster rap and I'm going to cap your ass and this and to celebrate this.
	All of a sudden we're going to have people with dreadlocks and gold teeth and tattoos and guns.
	You can't even shoot right there.
	What is this shooting?
	And then the next thing you know it just takes off.
	And then we have the degradation of women.
	Oh my god.
	A form of Synchronized, choreographed, almost a psychic slavery.
	You're never going to get far.
	The same way the CIA ran crack into the communities.
	Crack to destroy them.
	We want to get these people.
	And then what we want to do is, then we're going to lure them with welfare and assistance.
	And then we're going to cut it off.
	And we're going to cut it off and we're going to give it to the illegals.
	Now, this may sound like, what the hell is this guy talking about?
	But you know what?
	We've always kind of had it in for this.
	And Daniel Patrick Moynihan, our great senator, said this was nothing but the welfare system was to destroy these people, to destroy them.
	Heroin.
	What do you think heroin went?
	Uptown.
	Here in New York, uptown.
	The Bronx, uptown.
	Harlem.
	Heroin.
	Then later on, crack.
	Crack never made it in the school.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	Cheap uptown.
	Oh.
	All right.
	You've raised a lot of points, and I've got a point to say, but then you raised another point.
	So let me slow down a minute before my head explodes.
	All right.
	This is how I feel when I watch you.
	So I agree that...
	Evil entities like BlackRock got investments in the music industry promoting the crime and investments in the prison industries housing the people.
	I didn't say BlackRock.
	You did, but that's okay.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	All right, that's just one example of how these companies make money from it.
	I agree with you that society destroys its idols.
	We see that over and over again.
	But in this case, let's say...
	That psychological force of society destroying its idols is at play, but it doesn't preclude the idols committing the heinous acts that enable society to destroy them.
	Oh, no.
	Absolutely not.
	Absolutely not.
	It's like if I'm the liquor industry and I create all this cheap liquor, but you decide to go into drink driving or drunk driving, whatever you want to call it.
	I didn't do that.
	You did that.
	Yeah, but you enabled me.
	No, I didn't.
	You facilitated.
	No, I didn't.
	But here's another thing, too.
	If you bring these folks down to a point, remember, if Jay-Z is a millionaire, there's another guy above him who's a billionaire, or vice versa.
	And let me also tell you something.
	Don't think for a moment these people have as much money as you think.
	They are created.
	They're window dressing.
	Don't think for a moment.
	You won't believe how liquid.
	Diddy is.
	Nothing.
	Watch what happens.
	Watch what he's got.
	Nothing.
	And you'll find out that chips away.
	This is what Hollywood is.
	Nobody's got anything.
	Nobody's got anything over there.
	Look, let me explain something.
	If I come across something and I explain it to you, I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing.
	I'm telling you, that's the way it is, my friend.
	And there is something right now, this is so...
	I gotta tell you, in our community, see, I can only speak about here.
	Black folks in this country are about 14 to 15% of the population.
	I'd say 14%.
	And of that 14%, you know, you can look at how many are adults and how many are male.
	The prison population is like 60% in some cases.
	How the hell does 14% end up 67%?
	Why do you think that is?
	Well, it's because of the education.
	Nobody else does this.
	Chinese people don't do it.
	Jewish people in our country and in the world, it's like maybe 1%.
	Here, it's like half a percent.
	Through the roof, educated.
	In the United States, Cubans, Cuban Americans came from Cuba in the late 50s.
	They didn't speak anything.
	They had nothing.
	They're doctors and lawyers.
	They own everything.
	It's something about this.
	What is, what is this?
	What is this?
	What is this?
	Why is there a Compton?
	Why is there a, I don't know what it is.
	We did this a little bit to the Indian, Native American people, but black folks, and you remember rap was, start off, it's so nice.
	Remember the Sugar Hill, with the hip, the hip, you know man, Robert Delight, how cute, how quaint.
	R&B was wonderful.
	Motown, it was mine.
	Then all of a sudden, something happened.
	It got real dark, real quick.
	And it wasn't just gangster rap, but it was just celebration.
	Don't think for a moment.
	Because let me tell you something.
	Country music.
	I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
	You know, oh my god.
	Well, it was Johnny Cash, but it wasn't all about that.
	Bob Marley, I shot the sheriff, but still, it was up and down.
	But then, all of a sudden, crack!
	And this, and Crips and the Hoods.
	Let me ask you this.
	The Crips and the Hoods, you know what they do in this country?
	Nothing!
	What do they do?
	I don't know.
	Are they organized?
	No.
	The mafia, they make money.
	The LCN, they make money.
	Hell's Angels, motorcycle groups, Chinese triads, Albanians, they make money.
	What are the Crips over there?
	They shoot each other.
	I got this, they got this.
	Yo, got the gag.
	What are you doing?
	I make some, sell some drugs.
	You're killing each other.
	Don't think for a moment that nobody wanted to break up the Crips and the Bloods.
	Have you ever thought about this?
	Jesus, Sean, I can, I can, I can, you, you want to break?
	They wear red, they wear blue.
	Hello, there they are.
	All of a sudden I get rocketeering.
	I have about a thousand people locked up.
	I have buses full of people.
	And this is on a Friday.
	By Monday, they say, take this shit off.
	We're done with that.
	I'm done.
	No, let them kill each other.
	I'm not going to get it.
	No, no.
	Let them do that.
	You see, in our country, we have this thing.
	I knew a guy one time.
	You know, we have this reference here in New York.
	A wise guy.
	You know what I mean?
	And he suggested that.
	He goes, do you ever wonder why they don't stop us?
	Do you ever wonder?
	What the hell is that?
	What is it?
	Did I just have an apparition?
	What is this, big brother?
	It's not what it looks like.
	Tommy's show starts in one hour, and he's just testing his equipment, right?
	No, it's not what it said on there, on this thing that I got emailed, because I knew I started in an hour, and I got here, and it said three minutes ago, and I went...
	I know.
	We've got you down for 10pm.
	This show is a different show.
	It's not your show?
	No, you know what it is?
	You still have me on my old time.
	We don't celebrate daylight savings in Arizona.
	Our hours are now different.
	Listen, my friend, excuse me, I don't know who you are, but I loved your work with Men Underground.
	Anyway, you know that you could literally pass for any rock I'm actually five minutes late.
	I'm going to take a screenshot later and show it to him too.
	I'm actually five minutes late.
	Tommy, can you come back in an hour?
	I'll be here.
	I'm so relieved you have no idea.
	This is not the correct link.
	The other link I sent you in the email.
	Perfect.
	The man is closing in on a million subs.
	He doesn't know how to even get the time right.
	It's amazing.
	He's a beast.
	I'm Sean Atwood.
	And in most countries, I would be called retarded.
	But here, under the magic of YouTube, I'm able to amass this fortune by not knowing anything.
	Anyway.
	Impromptu.
	Impromptu cameo by Tommy Scoville, whose show is starting in one hour, folks, at 10 o 'clock UK.
	Doesn't he look like just a generic rocker?
	Like, where are they now?
	Doesn't he fight for the 70s?
	You've got tons of questions coming in.
	All right.
	Debra, do you think a possible indictment is due to Jay-Z?
	For what?
	For what?
	I mean, what for?
	What are you going to put?
	I mean, now remember, let me explain something also.
	We have a brand new president.
	The Department of Justice runs the federal indictment business.
	That attorney general, he's out.
	Now we're going to bring a new one.
	We don't know who.
	It's going to be this woman by the name of Pam Bondi.
	Very good.
	Used to work with her years ago.
	She's the new Attorney General.
	So they're going to ask, I want to start off by indicting who?
	Jay-Z?
	For something that happened 24 years ago?
	You know what?
	We might have better stuff to do.
	Terrorism.
	Syria fell.
	Which, of course, nobody understands what that's about.
	But between you and me, that is the most fast...
	Did your screen freeze?
	Keep going.
	I'm changing my battery.
	Keep going.
	I'm thinking this man here, he has like narcolepsy or something.
	You see, he freezes.
	It's the weirdest thing in the world.
	It's the goddamn thing I'm talking to this guy.
	And all of a sudden, he just starts...
	I don't know if he's like...
	It's the weirdest thing.
	Anyway.
	So the question is back to your indictment.
	We have a brand new administration.
	You think the Trump administration wants to start off by indicting Jay-Z?
	Let's see how this goes.
	Plus, it's 24 years.
	Do they want him in prison?
	No, they want the money.
	Nobody is clamoring.
	Listen, do you really want to start putting entertainers in prison who have had their way with Dogs and children and small animals.
	No, we would need separate prison systems for that.
	So you have to balance the equities of this.
	Is this really?
	No.
	So, next question.
	Is a video shown to a grand jury, is that good enough evidence?
	A video of what?
	Well, for example, Cassie.
	Who?
	Cassie.
	Remember Diddy beating Cassie?
	He pled guilty.
	I hit her.
	I beat her.
	That's battery.
	It's assault.
	I'm sorry.
	I didn't kill her.
	That's not sex trafficking.
	I did it.
	You don't have to show it.
	I plead guilty.
	I'm sorry.
	We settled.
	Sorry.
	Then they settled like right before the...
	Sorry.
	My mistake.
	My bad.
	That's over with.
	People keep talking about this video.
	Don't you want to...
	That's right.
	Show a drunk driving arrest true.
	What the hell does that have to do with anything?
	He's not fighting that one.
	Oh, and if he said, oh, I was an idiot.
	I was drunk.
	I was crazy.
	Oh, I mean, I was...
	That's done.
	And didn't she file something and they settled like right away?
	He owned up to it.
	You're going to bring that up again?
	So that, you know, listen, that's what started this thing going.
	That's what it was.
	Even though that had nothing to do with the real issues here.
	That's called a limited hangout.
	Remember the case, I tell you all the time.
	Hannibal Buress was a comedian in Philly who just said something about Bill Cosby.
	Somebody happened to be in the audience, filmed it, and that was it.
	It was...
	And women came forward and said, I have been telling you this.
	He drugs my drink.
	People knew about him.
	Really knew about it.
	Nothing happened.
	Except one comedian.
	He's not working now.
	So the question is, do you have in your...
	What do you have in your big chain?
	What are they called?
	Tesco's or whatever it is.
	Do you ever see these displays of fruit?
	Like oranges?
	And they're on this beautiful pyramid.
	And you want to say, I wonder if I take this one out.
	Kind of like that jingle.
	What if I take this one out?
	Gee, it's still up.
	Okay.
	What about this one?
	It's still up.
	But what about this one?
	And then it all comes down.
	That's Hannibal Buress.
	It's these weird things.
	You don't know why does this get people's attention.
	I remember one time when I was a kid, we used to watch these.
	Disaster films, Irwin Allen, you know, Earthquake or this.
	And it was this building that collapsed pre-9-11 and people were killed.
	It was horrible.
	But out of the rubble came a little puppy.
	And the audience went, oh, God.
	I said, did you not see?
	Why did that bother you?
	So I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Why is this video of Cassie, why is it such a big deal?
	That's the least of what he's done.
	It didn't settle right away.
	It settled after a day, and that's what enabled it to get out there.
	Excuse me.
	A day.
	Okay, that doesn't happen too often.
	So a day.
	You're right.
	You're right.
	I stand corrected.
	It took a long time.
	Twelve hours.
	But Jaguar's pointing out that Jay-Z's making the same mistake by not settling with...
	Busby, making the same mistake that Diddy made, and Jaguar, yeah, she's predicting things, but she was also in the mix with these guys and knew what they were up to.
	Yeah, but do you...
	Go on.
	Okay, well, do you think this would have been over with?
	Had they settled, there would have been no problem...
	So, if I'm Diddy, I said, okay, I'll settle this, but let me explain to you.
	No problems with Justin Bieber, right?
	No problem with all the people in my entourage who are dead.
	You know, you think Hillary Clinton's got people in her entourage who died.
	You know, you work with this guy.
	This one's dead, X, Y, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.
	Can you, can you, I'll sign it.
	Can you make that go away too?
	No.
	I don't think that had anything to do with anything.
	That was just one little...
	So anyway, and if Jay-Z says, what exactly am I...
	What am I agreeing to?
	How are you going to guarantee that if I settle something, this isn't going to come back and be used as an admission in federal court?
	How are you going to guarantee that I don't go to prison for this?
	See, that's what I don't understand.
	What they say, I'm going to settle.
	That's a civil case.
	If you're driving down the road and you're blitzed out of your mind and you hit somebody and you cause...
	Property damage and physical damage.
	You can settle all you want with them, but that guy coming down the street with a sirene who's going to arrest your ass, that's a different story.
	So they're two concomitant issues, criminal and civil.
	They don't have anything to do with each other.
	Well, looking at it from Jay-Z's point of view, wouldn't it have made financial sense for him to settle rather than him become the biggest story in the world?
	Concerning a heinous crime and the damage that's going to cause to his brand?
	Because that's irreversible.
	Now it's out.
	No, because, put it this way, if he settles, that's going to get out too.
	It's going to get out.
	There's no way you're going to be...
	So he loses no matter what.
	He goes, what did you settle to?
	We have a guy here who wants to be big, big political secretary of defense.
	And he made a settlement.
	With a woman.
	They said, listen, do me a favor.
	She'll go away.
	She's crazy.
	And now they're using that against him.
	You settled it.
	But it was a baseless claim.
	Well, if it was that baseless, why did you settle?
	It's going to get out no matter what.
	Jay-Z, listen.
	Jay-Z, in his group, stands up and says, excuse me.
	Somebody's going to stand up for what's right.
	And if he does this.
	I'm just not some stupid black man you can push around with your system.
	I know.
	Because you've got to get race into this.
	You have to.
	If you don't, what's the matter with you?
	What do you think I am?
	I'm going to be pushed around?
	How do you think I got to be Jay-Z?
	You think this is the first time ever?
	I've been muscled by you.
	I've been muscled by the best.
	What are you going to do?
	I don't know what you're talking about.
	24 years ago?
	What time was that?
	Now, there's one thing.
	Remember, I keep saying, I would say all the time, 24 years ago, 24 years ago, everything out of your mouth, 24 years ago.
	Did you ever see a news presenter show, how they get into a line and they never forget it?
	24 years ago.
	24 years ago.
	What were you doing 24 years ago?
	Do you remember?
	Now, people are going to say, listen, Jay-Z, excuse me.
	Let me show you this.
	The MTV Video Music Awards.
	I'm not talking about you going, you know, to your podiatrist on a Tuesday.
	I'm talking about one of the biggest events ever when you were the star.
	You probably remember that.
	Remember Woodstock?
	Remember the Isle of Wight?
	Yeah, okay, I remember.
	It was a big event.
	So it wasn't that rare.
	But you're going to be doing this in front of all these people?
	And what is all this undisclosed?
	What is this undisclosed?
	Jane Doe.
	Okay, who is she?
	Well, she's Jane Doe.
	How do I know Jane Doe exists?
	So, if the public says, you know, this guy's got a point.
	And also, if Jay-Z says, listen folks, if you had any dream about being in the music career, if you ever had any dream about being me, forget it.
	It's the worst.
	They come after you left and right.
	They tell you you did this.
	You're a drug addict.
	You're a thug.
	I was a kid.
	I sold drugs.
	I'm a serial killer.
	I'm the worst.
	I'm terrible.
	They never do this with Taylor Swift.
	Why is it me?
	Why does this happen?
	Do you mean to tell me?
	Do you think that with all the boy bands and menudos and this and that, and the Korean bands, you know those Korean boy bands and all that, do you think, do you have any idea?
	Why me?
	I'll tell you why, because we're black!
	And we're successful!
	And they hate that!
	We do something and we're thugs!
	Frank Sinatra does it, he's the Rat Pack!
	They had orgies!
	Do you know what Bob Hope supposedly did?
	If all of a sudden people said...
	So do me a favor.
	I'll tell you right now, forget it.
	If you have a talent, keep it to yourself.
	Let somebody write songs, but don't get out there.
	They've been coming after me and my wife and Beyonce.
	They hate Beyonce.
	Remember when they were telling Beyonce she wasn't even pregnant?
	Remember that one?
	That was a good one.
	That was interesting.
	Oh, she's older than she appears?
	She's 73 years old.
	What?
	Oh, they say this stuff.
	There's no end to this.
	Nobody goes through what we go through.
	Nobody.
	Then we got that Harvey Love and that TMZ coming after us all the time.
	You know why?
	Because we're black.
	And we wear shades.
	And we may not speak the Queen's English.
	And we've got tattoos and gold teeth.
	And we talk about stuff.
	It's none of your business.
	But we're the biggest thing on the planet.
	And they hate that.
	All right, Lionel.
	If what you said is true about settling, And the pointlessness of settling.
	Maybe.
	Why would people ever settle, such as Prince Andrew settling?
	Well, his is a different story.
	First, I think it's people higher up saying, okay, we're going to settle this, okay?
	Oh, okay, good.
	Everybody clear with that?
	And what have they settled?
	He's still doing.
	Oh, and this week we're going to throw you out of Mottenchop, Worcestershire, you and Squiggy, Figgy, whatever.
	You're going, all of you.
	He's still there.
	Every week they threaten him with something else.
	Every week.
	And this is going to cut you off.
	You're done.
	You're done.
	You're through.
	Okay, fine.
	He's still there.
	They haven't done anything to him.
	Nothing.
	So anyway, they settled, and they said, bad, bad, and he went away.
	Nobody wants Andrew, Randy, Andy, Ku Stark.
	They're like jokes.
	That's okay.
	In fact, Wills is saying, go away.
	By the way, the best story to watch is Harry and Meghan.
	He's done.
	He's cut that thing, that doll.
	They are cutting her off.
	Tyler Perry, who are you?
	She can't even get on the red carpet?
	Oh, that's beautiful.
	Oh, man.
	Anyway, don't get me started with that.
	But that's another story.
	So, what kind of settling was that?
	He wasn't that big of a deal.
	Does anybody care about him?
	No.
	Anybody care about Jay-Z?
	Now, let me tell you something.
	His reputation now?
	Oh!
	He's through the roof.
	He is through...
	Because let me tell you something.
	You know what gangster really is?
	That.
	Going up against these folks.
	Not somebody in the hood with a tech nine.
	This is it.
	I'm up against the biggest people on the planet.
	And I'm doing it.
	And I'm going to do it for you.
	I keep telling you young kids out there, don't ever give up.
	What am I going to do?
	Give up for something I didn't do?
	I'm tired of black men.
	Bring in the race.
	Tired of black men for years, giving it to the white men, pleading guilty to things you shouldn't do.
	Just settle this.
	No, I'm not.
	And I want you to show the same respect and the same attention to other people.
	Why me?
	You think Mick Jagger?
	Led Zeppelin?
	Remember those stories?
	I'm not going to tell you about that, but are you kidding me?
	Why me?
	Why now?
	Why this?
	Nobody ever went after talking about liquidating the Stones, Paul McCartney, the Beach Boys.
	No.
	You know why, don't you?
	Let's see.
	Because they're white.
	And they're lovable.
	And they're one of us.
	But it's easy to look at me as some kind of an evil, right?
	Isn't it good?
	Isn't it good?
	You've got an interesting comment here.
	Lionel, you're going to love it.
	My mother-in-law just ran in my room and said, who are you listening to?
	She's been a fan forever.
	Tampa here.
	Not so dumb blonde.
	Oh my gosh.
	Isn't that something?
	Did you say she's been a fan?
	Oh, Tampa.
	Oh my god.
	Well, that's my hometown.
	Isn't that something?
	You never knew I was this big, did you, Rashawn?
	Queen it.
	How about DNA evidence if it exists?
	Would that still stand and wouldn't it become a criminal case then?
	Well, if you have, let me, again, not trying to, keeping the rules of our algorithms, if you were to find a DNA sample that somebody had, and you could satisfy the chain of custody, something that was done,
	let's assume from the night this happened, this young lady was taken to an emergency room or a hospital or something, a swab or something were taken, He goes, yep, that's it!
	That's him!
	And how old were you?
	13. When was the sample taken?
	2000.
	Hello!
	That's it.
	Done.
	Finished.
	We're through.
	That's not going to happen, but yeah.
	Oh, that would be terrific.
	DNA is a wonderful thing.
	It's very difficult to explain.
	It's not so much that it's on you, it's where it's on you.
	So basically, the police report would need to say something to the effect of that man did something to her.
	Or, did he?
	Or, this undisclosed woman?
	Or, better yet, this 37-year-old gets on the stand and says, let me tell you what happened.
	It was a Wednesday night.
	It was 9 o 'clock.
	How do I know that?
	Because my watch broke.
	And I walked in and somebody says, have you met so-and-so?
	I never met him.
	And I stepped on his foot, I remember, because he was drinking Citron.
	And there was a weird smell.
	I said, what is that?
	And all of a sudden, we heard this noise and it was a woman who screamed because there was a champagne bottle that broke.
	And pretty soon you're thinking, oh my God, I believe every word she says.
	I believe her.
	There are people, Sean, there are people who talk about crimes all the time.
	Nobody saw it.
	Sometimes it's just a jailhouse snitch or somebody who just, they just go and they say, he pulled a knife on me.
	There I was.
	There's no CCTV.
	So yeah, don't ever forget, this woman could take the stand and absolutely destroy them.
	Let me ask you a question.
	Our friend Jaguar, if she tells you something, can you imagine her as a witness?
	Depending upon what it is, she would just be like, oh my god.
	I mean, so some people, Believe it or not, viva voce evidence, just plain old, this is what happened, is excellent.
	Little kids, oh my god, little kids are the worst for a defendant.
	And do you see that, man?
	Oh!
	One time there was a case where a child was taking the stand, and you can be any age and be competent to be a witness in this country.
	I'm sure, same for you.
	But the judge has to administer an oath.
	So the judge says now, little Mary, do you know what a promise is?
	She says, yes.
	A promise is like glass.
	You can't break it.
	Oh, they said, that's it.
	That's it.
	We're pleading.
	We don't even want to hear this.
	No evidence.
	So sometimes, yes, just plain old evidence can be good, depending upon what it is.
	But then you've got to ask, again, 24 years?
	Did you ever write, Mr. Bill?
	No.
	Did you ever get a hold of him?
	No.
	Did you get an email?
	No.
	Did you ever seek counsel?
	No.
	No, you never did this?
	No.
	Now, 24 years, you would know this better than I. Was he as big 24 years ago as he is today, if not more?
	What was he in 2000?
	I plead ignorance.
	I don't know.
	I don't know either.
	People could say, so did you know who he was then?
	How do you know now?
	Maybe one of our family peers can ask, was he that big?
	24 years ago, I don't know.
	So the question is, how would you have even remembered or known somebody then?
	You were in a room with, let's say, 50 people.
	Do you know that in that room were today Dirty Diddy, Doo-Doo, Bad Bastard, Jeezy, Doo-Doo, whatever.
	But they weren't known then.
	At that time, this was like the minor leagues.
	So how would you even know him then?
	24 years ago.
	I don't know.
	That's something.
	And again, what was the lighting like?
	What was the lighting like?
	And when did this drug that rendered you unable to...
	You were apparently paralyzed and knocked out.
	When did this take effect?
	And how do you remember this?
	And how do you remember this?
	Was it some narcoleptic drug-induced fugue?
	Some memory, false memory syndrome?
	And when...
	I mean, all of this can change the...
	Provided it ever got to the issue of testimony, that can change everything.
	Because if you want that jury to say, enough, we're not believing anything she said, that's it.
	You never know.
	Or, can we just give her the money now?
	We love this woman.
	Can we give her the money now?
	So she's saying she was in a room with three people.
	And as a prosecutor, if this was your case, Would a strategy be to try and flip those people against each other?
	Okay, let me talk about Diddy.
	What do you think Diddy's going to do?
	What's his incentive?
	Diddy will give you what?
	Commissary privileges?
	Diddy is going to rat out Jay-Z?
	And then I'm going to say, Diddy, you don't think that the reason why you're telling us is to get your own ass out of a crack?
	You don't think that they promised you?
	So I don't know what good he's going to do.
	Because he's trying to get himself off of the case.
	But this third person, this third...
	Unnamed person?
	Did you do anything to stop it?
	Do you remember?
	What were you 24?
	By the way, do you recall 24 years ago?
	Do you remember this?
	Did you ever have any instance of refreshing your testimony or rehearsing your testimony with anybody prior to this?
	Did you keep notes?
	Did you keep a diary?
	How do you remember this?
	Really?
	What did they promise you?
	Now, let me ask you something.
	You do know that if you, an adult, were a part of aiding and abetting, counseling, procuring, or hiring, you are an accomplice to what amounts to basically statutory...
	Alright?
	So, if you testify, you're incriminating yourself.
	Did anybody promise you anything?
	Did anybody make a deal with you?
	Have you been granted immunity?
	Because if you start testifying because, yes, it was terrible, this girl was, and you were there?
	Now, there's no duty to necessarily inform, but if you were participatory, you're just as guilty as they say Jay-Z is.
	How do you like them apples?
	So who's going to be talking?
	They're going to say, I don't know anything about this.
	I don't know.
	I was in the room.
	I don't know.
	Now get this.
	Call your first witness, Mr. Carter.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Unidentified woman number one.
	This never happened.
	Imagine that.
	What if the unidentified woman fears getting a sentence for being present and then her lawyer cuts a deal for immunity to testify against them?
	Well, that's what I'm saying.
	Condition number one.
	Situation number one.
	She says, I don't know what you're talking about.
	Period.
	What are you going to do?
	Prove I'm wrong?
	Are you suing her?
	Madam Jane Doe?
	Are you suing this woman?
	No, you're not.
	No, you're suing, I guess, because this is an amended complaint.
	You're suing Mr. Cohn.
	But what about this woman?
	You're not suing her?
	Why not?
	Are you saying she was involved in this?
	No.
	She was just hanging around?
	She just saw what was going on?
	Okay.
	The next issue is the woman takes the stand.
	She's testifying.
	Did anybody promise you anything?
	Yes.
	I was granted immunity for testifying.
	Oh, so the prosecutor promised you that they wouldn't prosecute you for being an accomplice to this.
	Activity with a 13-year-old, right?
	Yeah.
	So this is why you're testifying.
	To save your ass.
	You're not lying, though.
	No.
	No, this is true.
	Why did I promise you anything?
	So she's going to look suspect because she's like a jailhouse snitch or somebody flipping to save everybody.
	And then Diddy's going to say, look, I got news for you.
	I know you don't believe me.
	I got nothing to lose here.
	But nothing happened.
	That's the best testimony.
	Look, I'm Diddy.
	I could give him up.
	I'm not a big fan of this son of a...
	It's never happened.
	Now, I've done a lot of bad things, but not this.
	I don't know who this is.
	And I remember that night, big time.
	And I remember such and such.
	That never happened.
	Oh, my God.
	So who's going to nail the...
	Minus this DNA and this laboratory and the statements made at the time.
	At the hospital?
	Yes, it was Jay-Z.
	He did something along those lines.
	Absent that, what do you have?
	Nobody's going to corroborate this.
	But the unnamed person, it's not a disincentive for her to worry about whether she's going to be believed or not.
	Once she's got cut a deal, she's immune.
	She's saved herself.
	Isn't that her perspective?
	Now, you're going to say the reason why you're saying this is to save yourself.
	You better do a good job convincing The jury that Jay-Z did this or else you're in trouble.
	Because remember, you're doing this not because you're a good citizen.
	You're testifying this to save your ass.
	That's what you're doing.
	And just like anybody else, I'm going to say whatever you want.
	But they can't say you've not done a good job and we're reversing that deal now.
	Can they once to cut the deal?
	Well, unless you've lied.
	Unless you've lied.
	But here is the deal.
	But here is the thing.
	Take a drug conspiracy.
	Oh, they arrested you?
	Oh, yeah.
	So you're testifying against, let's say, Ron, and did they make you a promise?
	Yes.
	What was that promise?
	They said they wouldn't prosecute me.
	If you did what?
	If I deliver Ron.
	Oh, I see.
	So you're telling the truth, right?
	Yeah.
	And you're doing this out of the goodness of your heart and to save your ass.
	Oh, we're supposed to believe this?
	Oh, sure.
	It happens all the time.
	And there are more people.
	Well, I can switch it.
	Remember this guy, Sammy the Bull Gravano?
	Okay.
	People tell the time, why are you taking the word of somebody who killed 19 people?
	Okay, that's a good question.
	I switch it around.
	If you want to prosecute the devil, you've got to go after a demon.
	Who do you think I'm going to get to testify?
	Who?
	Who am I going to get to who saw this?
	An angel?
	A nun?
	The Pope?
	No.
	A fellow mafioso.
	A fellow whatever it is.
	So, you could say, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we've got this woman here.
	She's a third person.
	And you're going to hear that she testified and we made a deal with her.
	Because frankly, she's smart.
	Why would you testify unless it opened her up?
	Does that bother you?
	No.
	No, not at all.
	Who else are we going to get?
	Somebody who's got to be there.
	Now, if she was just as guilty as Jay-Z, we wouldn't be making her any deal.
	She'd be a co-defendant.
	And you can play with that.
	But see, once the jury has it up to here, they go, this one's saving his ass, she's saving his ass.
	I don't understand.
	I've had it.
	That's what you want.
	You want this.
	I'm tired of this.
	All you people.
	And this 13-year-old, I don't know, where were your parents?
	What were you doing there?
	And even though you're supposed to tell people, listen, you can't hold a child responsible.
	The hell you can't.
	When I was 13 years old, I was, you know, playing Little League.
	This one's sneaking.
	How did she get into this?
	Did she sneak in?
	Did somebody grow?
	How did she get there?
	What if it turns out?
	She actively sought entrance, fooling people, dressing older.
	I'm not saying this is true, but the facts change everything.
	Who is this person?
	How did she get in?
	How did she ever even get near the VMA?
	A 13-year-old?
	Was she that?
	Did somebody get her and bring her?
	I don't know.
	All of these facts are critical.
	She lied to her parents.
	And she couldn't get in.
	And then she started talking to limo drivers.
	And one of them said to her, you look like the kind of person that Diddy would like to kick it with, but in a more lascivious way.
	And then he came back and picked her up and then took her to the private party, the after party.
	Now, let me ask you something.
	How dare I say, How sympathetic do you feel towards this 13-year-old?
	Because she's a kid.
	You might be able to say, you know what?
	No child can be responsible for what they do.
	Other people would say, that's no kid.
	13 years old, talking to limo drivers, I've got to get in for my own victimization, my own exploitation.
	I can't wait.
	This limo driver, let me try this one.
	Hello, would you help exploit me?
	No.
	Damn it!
	Who else?
	You!
	Would you help me finally pay dirt?
	Now, I don't think that's the right way to do it.
	But a lot of jurors may say, what is this?
	This isn't some poor kid pulled off of a playground.
	This kid was trying to, and she lied.
	And Mr. Limo Driver, 24 years ago, Did that happen?
	It most certainly did not.
	Nobody says, hello, I'm 13 years old.
	I'm basically jailbait and responsible for you spending the rest of your life in prison.
	Would you help me?
	Of course.
	No.
	So she probably lied to him too.
	So if you have this jury, if it ever even went to that level, it says, we've got a conniving.
	Granted, a woman, a young girl who probably had a terrible life on her own.
	Who knows?
	Probably was the victim of sexual abuse.
	Probably involved in...
	Sometimes in my wife, at Lynn's Warriors, we've talked about this.
	Some of these girls, this is the only bargaining chip, the only attention sometimes some of these young people ever had.
	It's all they know.
	They don't like me because of me or my intelligence or my smile.
	This is the only thing I know because I've been so contaminated.
	And I recognize this fact.
	So when I point this out, Blaming anybody.
	Trying to explain it.
	If you get that jury who just says, you know what, this is not, this is, no, no.
	This case is, I think we're all going to, let's just kind of walk away from it.
	Long time.
	Give her something for therapy.
	Enough with this.
	And where do you think, where do you think all this money's coming from?
	Where do you think, what is it, what would you think it's worth?
	What would you think it's worth?
	Let's assume the jury comes back because it's liability and damages.
	The jury finds Jay-Z live.
	What's it worth to you?
	24 years?
	What's the testimony?
	I've been an alcoholic.
	I've been a drug addiction.
	I've had four failed marriages.
	I've got children I don't see.
	I've been in mental hospitals.
	Okay.
	Because of Jay-Z?
	No.
	I've been to mental hospitals.
	Did this cause?
	What is it worth to you?
	How much is this worth?
	What is it?
	Let's see if we go all the way through it.
	It could very well end up being less than any settlement.
	And what are we settling for exactly?
	I hope you don't mind, but I see things in multiple levels.
	And just when I open up one area, five more open up.
	So I'm never satisfied.
	It's not black and white.
	It's not Manichaean to me.
	It's very up in the air.
	Yeah, and it's sad that, you know, the perspective that people get destroyed, that survivors get destroyed on the stand, and that prevents a lot of them from coming forward because they don't want to go through that.
	Wait a minute.
	Survivors destroyed.
	Yes, some do.
	But most of the time, I personally, if there's somebody who was really traumatized, oh, no.
	I would.
	Me, it was like, no, no, no, no.
	Unless they're lying.
	No, you don't put somebody on just to tear them up.
	Nah.
	Some people would do that.
	I can't do that.
	I can't.
	I can't.
	You can't take a kid or somebody.
	Because somebody invariably did something that was changing the subject.
	A lot of times, women, the worst is date assault.
	Because you're, oh.
	So you went out with this guy?
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, did you meet him online?
	Yeah.
	So you were drinking with this complete stranger?
	Yeah.
	Everybody does this.
	You're not supposed to get assaulted.
	So you can always make somebody...
	Oh, and were you wearing this?
	Uh-huh.
	It's a first date.
	What do you think?
	You know what I mean?
	You can make somebody seem like she's a harlot merely because she's doing what everybody does.
	I mean, what do you think this is?
	No, I can't.
	That's not me.
	But if somebody's lying, oh, no problem.
	All right, we've got about 18 minutes left before Tommy comes to the show.
	So we're going to have to have Lionel answer the questions.
	This poor bastard is waiting.
	Are we on now, Sean?
	We're going to have to have Lionel answer the questions within a few minutes because there's still 27 questions pending.
	All right.
	Lionel, do you think, in your professional opinion, Busby is working with his client's full interest at heart?
	Or is there an element of ego and bravado in front of the world stage?
	Of course there is.
	But they go hand in hand.
	Some of the greatest trial lawyers of all time, Melvin Belli and others, were bigger than life!
	And you want them to be!
	And you want your lawyer to be!
	I want you to be!
	Full of bravado.
	Do you like this?
	Yes, good.
	And what adds to your bravado?
	Winning.
	So let's hear it for bravado.
	Of course there is.
	He enjoys it.
	He enjoys the stage.
	He's apparently very accomplished.
	Nothing wrong with that.
	You want somebody who is, you know, because people want to see a lawyer.
	I'll tell you, he's a hell of a lot different than Diddy's lawyer.
	Diddy's lawyer does not convey, in my opinion, that same...
	That almost theatrical side.
	Alright, so why is no one talking about the fact that Jay-Z's lawsuit against Busby mentions multiple lawsuits involving male and female minors?
	Well, I think he did.
	Didn't Mr. Busby say you sued me anonymously or as other people or something along those lines?
	I mean, I don't know what those lawsuits brought.
	I'm not that familiar with it, but normally it's probably not a great tactic to bring a lawsuit against somebody who's going to be suing you because they're suing.
	I don't know enough about that to give anything even remotely rational.
	Will the security guard who picked her up in the bathroom be questioned if he's not dead?
	Of course!
	Now tell me, your recognition familiarized me with who picked her up in the bathroom.
	What is this story?
	What is this aspect of it?
	I don't remember specifically what happened.
	She just escaped out of the...
	Anybody who can, for example, provide corroboration.
	At the time I saw her, she was screaming.
	At the time I saw her, she had blood.
	At the time her clothes were torn.
	That's extremely irrelevant material.
	Corroborative.
	She ran to a gas station and there was a guy who let her use the phone to ring her dad.
	So would that be a witness?
	Certainly.
	24 years ago.
	How do you remember this?
	I never forgot this.
	How was she?
	She was distraught.
	Did you hear her speaking?
	Yes, I did.
	What was she saying?
	By the way, that's not hearsay.
	Interesting.
	Because you're going to be testifying about what you heard her say because you're not offering it for the truth of the matter asserted just because it was said.
	It's also the excited utterance exception to the hearsay rule.
	So what did she say?
	She was screaming, I've just been attacked!
	That's very relevant.
	Very admissible.
	If that happened.
	Been watching you for many years, Lionel, on Crosstalk.
	Well, that's true.
	That's a wonderful outlet as well, and I thank you for that.
	How come the name of Celebrity B hasn't been revealed?
	I don't know.
	I mean, I'm all for anonymity to an extent.
	Children, I understand it.
	But if you're going after some poor bastard, you're suing them.
	Well, who are you?
	Well, we don't want you to know.
	Well, wait a minute.
	What about me?
	You drag me into this.
	They know my name.
	And remember, when you're charged, and if it's ever dismissed, they will never forget what happened.
	You can't unring the bell.
	It will always be there.
	Weren't you charged with Mopery?
	What?
	That was a long time ago.
	It was, uh-huh.
	So there's this balance there.
	Someone's asking if Celebrity B could have settled already.
	You can settle any time you want for anything.
	In our system, imagine, do you have a teeter-totter, a little swing set, one of those, you know, those seesaws?
	Okay, this is dead even.
	If I can't prove one, nobody wins.
	Now, reasonable doubt is a criminal case.
	I've got to prove it this much.
	I've got to really, I mean, beyond a reasonable doubt, I really have to eliminate any and all doubt that you have a reason for.
	But now, here's civil.
	This is called preponderance of the evidence.
	Or, is it more likely than not?
	And you know what I've got to do to win?
	Just, is it more likely?
	Just a little bit past dead even.
	Now, That's that.
	We also have these other ones.
	That's a reasonable doubt.
	Preponance of the evidence.
	We also have probable cause.
	Probable cause.
	One of the best definitions is he probably did it.
	This is what you need to arrest somebody.
	This is what you need to go to the grand jury.
	Probable cause.
	There's also proof, evidence, presumption, great, clear and convincing.
	All this stuff.
	Sean, if you put a gun to my head and said, explain this.
	People don't.
	People don't say, Sean, prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you had a bagel and a cup of tea this morning.
	And now prove to me, beyond the preponderance of evidence, and then prove to me.
	I'm going to prove to you no matter what.
	It's the same.
	I can't, I don't know.
	It's up to you.
	Do you believe me or not?
	So it's a wonderful fiction that we play around with, but nobody really knows truly, operationally, what the hell it means.
	Claudia is wondering whether there is a lower burden of proof for civil cases, and will it go before a jury?
	Yes, I just said that, yes.
	If it will go to a jury, if you can get it passed, a directed verdict, but yes, it'll be a very...
	Yes, if it goes to a jury, there's greater chances for settlement because it's so easy.
	Theoretically.
	But remember, if that jury doesn't like you, it doesn't say, I hate this Atwood guy.
	But, you know, it's only preponderance of the evidence.
	Yeah, you're right.
	No, they don't think like that.
	They say, I don't like this guy.
	I don't believe him.
	I think she's crazy.
	It's just like, for example, we have a case here where we had that President Trump, before he was president, was sued by a woman named E. Jean Carroll, who alleged that he...
	Did something untoward to her in a dressing room at a very posh department store.
	I am convinced the jury hated him.
	Hated him.
	Because it just...
	And they just thought, you know what?
	Just give her the money.
	I don't think they cared about preponderance of the evidence.
	They just didn't like the way he acted.
	They didn't like what he said.
	And that is so important.
	How you act and how you, the way you come across to this jury, critical.
	Sarah wants to know, what do you think will happen now after this?
	You know what I think ultimately?
	Nothing.
	Nothing.
	I think this is going to go away.
	This is going to be such a quagmire that everybody's going to say, all right, nobody settles, right?
	That's it.
	Okay.
	Diddy says, I'm not settling.
	I'm going to, you got me.
	I'm looking at trying to keep myself.
	From going into prison for the rest of my life, I'm not going to deal with anybody, period.
	And as far as Diddy says, I mean, I'll keep saying, Sean, Jay-Z, he might say, I'm not going to settle.
	I told you.
	I didn't do this and that's it.
	Leave me alone.
	You want to sue?
	You want to, if you want to bring me, his lawyer is one of the best.
	His lawyer is representing Alec Baldwin, represented the current mayor of New York.
	He's good.
	Come on, take it to trial.
	Let's go.
	I didn't do it.
	And I think people love this.
	I'm not going to be railroaded, etc., etc.
	I've just got a message that I've been cited in the lawsuit, the Jay-Z Busby, and it says, I'll read it to you.
	The same day, Busby also told Sean Atwood in an interview that his view is if there were people present, had been at these parties in the past who knew...
	That this was being used and put it in people's drinks or perhaps being put in oil that was rubbed, you know, people rubbing it up on each other.
	And they allowed that to occur, participated in that, sat there and watched it, didn't intervene, kept it quiet as far as I'm concerned.
	You're just as complicit as the individual coerced and engaged in some sort of exploitation.
	Busby also disclosed the success of his strategy.
	I will write a letter, and usually when I write people a letter, you know, I've been doing this for almost 30 years.
	Usually I get people's attention when I write them a letter.
	So Jay-Z's lawyers are using this against Busby right now.
	They're using the law of Atwood.
	What Busby said to me when I interviewed him.
	They're using that in the lawsuit.
	Congratulations, you've made it.
	Now they're going to be citing you.
	We're going to have, and the case of X-Rel Atwood, and you'll be an expert witness.
	You can say, well, this is...
	I'm banned from America for life, Lionel, so I won't be a witness.
	You're banned from America?
	Yeah, because of my Disco Biscuit importation case in Arizona.
	Well, that's our loss, my friend.
	I've never spoken to somebody who's banned.
	But here's a question, too.
	And this is something which is the most important.
	I love when somebody says that they were defamed.
	Now, imagine you've been hit.
	You've been hit.
	You've been hit.
	Mike Tyson has just, I mean, hit you.
	You're barely standing.
	And right before you pass out, I come into the ring and I go like this, boop, and you fall over.
	Did I really hit you?
	What could I do?
	How do you defame Diddy, Jay-Z, anybody?
	What can you do?
	I know theoretically it's all the same, but the idea is that you have been hit with, you are a public figure.
	You are the subject of everybody.
	What are you going to do?
	I mean, it's a very interesting issue, the notion of liable defamation and the like.
	It's fascinating.
	Because the real definition is when, let's say you have a fish and chip shop, and I say, I went to this place and I found a rat, a dead rat in there, and I'm lying.
	And I destroy your business.
	That's the kind of stuff we're talking about.
	But as opposed to...
	You know, everybody is jumping on you.
	They've actually found dead rats, but I'm the only one who's lying about it.
	I just think that sometimes we use the word defamation too loosely.
	I think it's kind of lost its meaning.
	All right, we're down to our last five minutes before Tommy comes in, folks.
	And then we've got big homie CC coming in two hours after Tommy.
	Next question.
	Is it still possible to prosecute someone without certain things like witness testimony, though, especially in this sort of case?
	Sure you can.
	You can do it.
	If you can get past a motion to dismiss, yes.
	Oh, absolutely.
	There is no magical...
	When you talk about witness testimony, you've got to have something to prove it, and that witness could just be the victim.
	Do you think the house of cards is going to collapse, or just a few jokers?
	Honestly, no.
	I really think that it could, but I think that people, this is turning into a circus.
	That people are saying, alright, enough is enough.
	Remember years ago when they were, maybe you don't remember this, but when they were talking about, is professional wrestling real?
	Is it like, who's asking this?
	What?
	You know, it's like, do you think that the world of rap and hip-hop is filled with sordid perverts, paraphiles, and pederasts?
	Oh, gee, do you think?
	I mean, do you really?
	Seriously, just take this out of your demented band from the USA, sordid, vile way of looking at it.
	Has this really shocked you in any way?
	I mean, is there anything, have you heard anything where Like, for example, we went to Diddy's home, and I found this false, it looked like a closet, and I pulled it back, and there were 10 little girls in chains.
	You say, wait a minute, hold it!
	You know, that's something like Sicario or some horrible...
	Is there anything, have you heard anything, any fact that makes you say, oh my God, he did what?
	No.
	Is the only one.
	That's the one.
	And he's not a party to this.
	But that's the one.
	And we showed that video last time.
	Remember that?
	Where he's smiling.
	I would like do a Zapruder.
	I would just let the jury see it very slowly.
	And just see that look of smile and say this.
	This is what he did.
	But that's not a case.
	So it has no relevance to this.
	Lionel, have you seen a powerful triad of people fall before?
	And who would you say this is similar to?
	Harvey Weinstein.
	What Harvey Weinstein did was nothing compared to this.
	Harvey Weinstein got half of these people dropped.
	Harvey Weinstein was one of the most...
	Harvey Weinstein knew everybody.
	The Clintons.
	Harvey Weinstein said, okay, let me tell you something.
	If you said, whoever...
	If I have ever been...
	Untoward or attacked or groped any of you, please stand up.
	Okay?
	Good.
	Now, of this group, how many of you have received Academy Awards?
	Okay, one, two, three, four.
	He produced!
	I mean, he...
	I'm not trying to...
	Let me say something quickly.
	The thing about Harvey Weinstein, which is the worst, and this is what they've got to worry about.
	There's this prior bad acts testimony.
	People who come forward and say, well, I wasn't there now.
	And Sean Atwood didn't do anything to me now.
	But one time he did.
	And what he did to me then is exactly what is being alleged now.
	So I'm here to corroborate.
	People would say, so I'm talking about something you're not even on trial for.
	Not to show your propensity for criminality, but to show that your behavior was consistent.
	That's what they did to Harvey Weinstein.
	And I hate that.
	Tell me what I did now.
	Don't tell me what I did before or what you think I did.
	That's the real problem with our system.
	So I predict ultimately Jay-Z walks, vindicated, stronger than ever, and the case kind of goes.
	Busby and others will claim victory.
	He'll realize, guess what?
	There's no more money left.
	My clients have instructed me, and if we have in any way shown a light, maybe we're better off now.
	And that's it.
	It's going nowhere.
	Now, and did he ultimately?
	Pardon.
	Because why?
	Lawfare.
	And don't think for a moment that this administration is a little bit more sensitive to people who have been targeted by the federal government.
	It's not that you're not guilty of something, but that you've been targeted unfairly.
	That's what I believe.
	Viewers, if you love Lionel's devil's advocacy and coffee-addled eloquency, support his work, you will find much more of his madness at his channel.
	The link is in the description box.
	At Lionel Nation, yes.
	And my wife, too.
	And my wife, too.
	We are tandem.
	Yes, sir.
	All the links are down there.
	We look forward to you coming back soon.
	We love Lionel, and Tommy's show has just started, and then Big Homie is coming on in two hours.
	I've done my six hours, four hours left.
	Thank you for coming in, Lionel.
	We hope to see you soon.
	Take care, my friend.
	Thank you, sir.
	Cheers.

▲