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March 23, 2023 - Lionel Nation
43:13
How Can A Former President Be Incarcerated?

In a rational world he can't be.

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All right, my friends.
Are you ready for this?
Are you ready to kind of sift through the truth, or do you want to talk about the usual stuff?
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
If you want to do this, you know, Fox News stuff, which is great, God bless them, but...
You want to keep reacting to this?
No, you don't want to react.
Let's look at what's happening, what's going on, okay?
Listen to me carefully.
Listen to me carefully.
Where do you even start?
First, let's talk about Ron DeSantis for a moment.
Ron DeSantis, now I don't know what his story is.
I am not at all impressed with Ron DeSantis.
In the least, I am not a MAGA person.
I don't know.
I've told you repeatedly, I've been saying both on my private channel and on my Lionel Legal channel, that Trump is handling this absolutely horribly.
Horribly.
It's childish.
It's petulant.
Referring to her as horse face and what are you doing?
He's making it all about him.
Trump is saying, It's me.
Look what they're doing to me.
You know, me, me, me.
Okay, fine, fine.
That's not the way to do it.
Ron DeSantis is milquetoast.
He's beyond a lightweight.
I don't know where these people are.
Look, I don't know how much he's supposedly...
How much he's aligned with the usual...
Whatever.
I don't know.
I can't tell you who these people are.
But let's talk about how Trump is doing this for a moment.
First and foremost, what do I always tell you?
Who are the people you're talking to?
You're talking to the undecided, independent, kind of a...
Middle-of-the-road, unsure, toss-up state voter.
That's what you're trying to do.
Your people know how great it is or how horrible this particular thing that you're going through.
They understand that.
Your enemies will never side with you no matter what.
So you're always talking to people, let me say this again, you're always talking to the undecided, independent voter.
And what do you do?
You explain the unfairness of this for everybody, how this prosecution attacks the system, how it attacks the process, the franchise, not you.
Trump's point of view is, look what they're doing to me.
The correct way is, look what they're doing to us.
This is the only way around this.
I've said this a gazillion times.
Don't make fun of Alvin Bragg's weight.
Don't make fun of Stormy Daniels' face.
What is this?
I mean, you know, sometimes it's fun.
Listen, I'd be the first one to tell you that As has been the case in...
I don't know what you want to call it.
I've heard people who've...
What's the word?
Since the days of Thomas Nast and Oliphant and all these great, great cartoonists, they've looked at faces and drawn things.
I understand this.
I dig that.
That's okay.
But what are we doing?
Horse face?
Ignore her!
And I hate to tell you this also, this Robert Costello, the lawyer who, this is really interesting, who basically is trashing, I mean trashing, a former client, Cohen, Michael Cohen, after he has this waiver.
I mean, my God!
I've had clients before I don't care for.
Clients before that I think are, you know, maybe not exactly competent.
Some may be crazy.
Some may be whatever.
I'm not going to go on any TV ever!
Ever!
I don't care whether you sign a waiver or not and talk about, he's crazy, he was going to kill himself, and if he's going to lie about this to stay out of jail, and if he's going to kill himself, well, who would be listening to him now?
Wait a minute.
What?
Okay, I understand you got this waiver, but this was a former client?
Now, It would seem to most people that Mr. Costello, by the way, what he's doing is not wrong, but you saw him on Tucker.
Is he on the Trump team?
I'm not saying that.
People are saying, well, he's obviously in the bag for Trump.
Well, I don't know if that's true, but why are you going to this extent?
Blasting Michael Cohen.
Do you understand this?
Is he lying?
Mr. Cohen, did you pay this money?
Yes.
Are you crazy?
Yeah.
Are you suicidal?
Yeah.
Are you a lunatic?
Yeah.
But I also paid this money.
And here's the check, and I got the check, and I was paid back.
And that's it.
What do you think this case is all about?
What do you think this is about?
What do you think?
What do you think?
What?
What do you think Alvin Bragg's going to do?
You think he's going to go through this plot where he's like Sam?
Do you think that Michael Cohen is like Sammy the Bull?
Where his involvement is so deep that we've got to go into it?
Are you kidding me?
This is fraudulent.
This is falsifying business records.
That's all this is!
I don't care if he's Charles Manson!
And it's so simple.
State your name for the record.
Michael Cohen.
What did you do?
I paid Stormy Daniels $130,000 or whatever it was.
Why?
At the behest of Trump.
Okay.
That may not be, it may not be against the law.
That's for others to decide.
What did you do?
I paid her in a check.
I got a home equity loan.
I did whatever it was.
Here's this check.
Here's that check.
Here's whatever it was.
And I was paid back.
Here, here, and here.
That's it.
Thank you very much.
Your witness.
Mr. Cohen, are you stupid?
I'm stupid.
I'm stupid.
He's not exactly the most, you know, brilliant.
Yeah.
Mr. Cohen, are you...
Did you say you were going to kill yourself?
I sure did.
Would you ever use the term that maybe you were a bit...
Kind of lunatic yourself?
Damn right.
I've never been faced with jail before prison.
But I'll tell you this much.
I know one thing.
I did this.
I did this.
I paid this check.
That's all.
What do you think this is about?
Let me ask the wonderful people here during our moment.
What do you think this is about?
What do you think this is about?
Tell me.
What do you think this is about?
I'm interested right now, because I don't get the chance to ask you enough, but I'm going to say, this is falsifying records.
How difficult do you think it is to prove this?
Now, whether it's criminal or not, it's another story.
What do you think this is?
What?
How complicated?
I don't care who it is.
I don't care who these people are.
Our good friend Andy says, politics.
No, that's not what I mean.
What do you think proving this case is?
The case.
Forget politics.
Forget the motivation.
You're talking about the motivation.
What is this case about?
It's maybe a misdemeanor, maybe a felony.
It's falsifying business records.
That's what he's going to be indicted on.
With, for, whatever it is.
Preventing Trump from running for president.
No!
Stepping stone for Bragg.
No!
Talk about the case.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my name is Alvin Bragg.
I don't think he's going to be trying it himself.
Deep state misdirection.
No!
Converting something, covering some other crime.
Okay, Howie, you're getting close.
You're getting close, Howie.
Howie Brown says, covering some other crime.
Okay, sort of.
Stop all this, you know, Breitbart-ish kind of talk.
Look at the case.
What is this about?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we're going to prove to you.
The evidence will show.
That President Trump, and they're going to argue whether it should be called President Mister, committed an offense by misallocating, by falsifying a business record.
And if it's a misdemeanor, it's already lapsed, the statute.
So now we've got to make it a...
A felonious transaction.
How do we do that?
We do that by saying that this was connected to another crime.
And that crime that we're going to be basing this on is a state...
And this is where it gets real tough.
But what's the purpose of Michael Cohen?
What does Stormy Daniels have to do with this?
What?
Using campaign funds to cover up an affair.
Howie, you're almost there.
But that's not it.
It's the idea that you're benefiting.
It's almost like it's kind of like an in-kind contribution of stuff.
I think it's about Trump's fiancés or finances.
or except I don't know what that means so When you go into a courtroom, You better understand what's going on here.
Forget all this other kind of stuff.
Look at the case.
What is this about?
It's about this.
If you and I are on a battlefield, okay?
Boy, you really need me.
And I realize this.
And by the way, thank you for making these comments.
And I appreciate this.
But if this is in any way indicative of what people are thinking, you really need me because you're talking about stuff that's just...
I don't even know what you're talking about.
You're talking about things that are just, what?
If we're in a battle, and we're in, I don't know, Yugoslavia, Ukraine, or wherever the hell we are, and there's people shooting at us, Russian, Ukraine, whatever it is, and I turn to you and I say, what is this about?
And you say, well, basically what this is, this is a Victoria Nuland, this is this, this is kind of a native expansion, and they say, no, excuse me, no, no, no, no.
You're talking about...
What's this about?
The answer is, that guy is trying to kill you and me.
That's what this is about.
Forget all this motivation.
You're talking about motivation and the reason for that is, what difference does it make?
No, it's simple.
That guy is trying to kill us.
That's it.
And we've got to kill him.
Whoever is trying to kill us, we've got to kill him.
That's it.
That's war.
That's kind of what war is.
That's the way battles are.
Boxing, war.
That's it.
It's it.
That's it.
You can talk about things like, no, no, you don't understand, as a bullist.
No, it's about power.
See what this is.
This is a different...
No, no, no, you're missing the point.
You're missing the point.
Nobody's talking about anything.
Look, do you want to talk about the legal part of it?
Fine.
Do you want to talk about the political part?
The political part bores me to death.
The political part bores me to death.
You're just ensconced in this political stuff.
You just want to keep talking about how they're coming up to Trump.
Maybe.
Maybe.
I don't care.
Whatever that is.
This case is so easy, it's not even funny.
My name is Michael Cohen.
This is my chick.
Who are you?
I don't even know if Stormy Daniels is.
Maybe she's a part of it.
Ms. Daniels, or Gregory, or Clifford, or whatever her name is, do you, do, you, yeah?
I made a deal.
And by the way, there's going to be motions in lemonade.
Are we going to go through this routine?
And what was the subject about this?
Well, the subject about this, because in a fair, we had sex.
I don't know if you want to bring that up again.
Do you want to stipulate to as much as possible?
What is she going to testify to?
I'll stipulate right now.
Keep her off the stand.
What is it?
That Trump paid her $130,000?
Okay.
Did he or didn't he?
Stipulate.
Keep people off.
Keep people off.
What is the defense?
What is it?
The defense is going to be the affirmative defense of statute of limitations, which occurs in the motion part of it.
It's going to be maybe motions to dismiss because you're going to claim that this isn't really a crime.
But if it gets past that, and it will, and it will, it's going to get past all this stuff.
It's going to go to the jury.
What's your defense?
Michael Cohen's crazy.
Okay.
Did he pay her the money or not?
Yeah, okay.
Did he do it on his own?
Did he just one day say, I'm going to pay her $130?
No, he did it at the orders.
Okay, what else did you do?
Well, he's crazy.
You already established that.
What difference does that make?
What's the defense?
What are you going to do?
What are you going to say?
It didn't happen?
You think you're going to go into a Manhattan court and you're going to argue what?
That this was politically motivated?
They'll say, great!
80% of this city voted against Trump.
So chances are you're going to probably be getting a registered voter who's going to be in the jury pool who probably voted against.
And see, we're going to say the rigged jury.
We're just going to start throwing these things out.
Rigged jury, George Soros, deep state, shadow government.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That doesn't help me in court.
We just throw things.
We just say things like this.
That's who we are.
That's who they think we are, I guess.
We just say things.
I'm telling you, I don't care about this.
This isn't MAGA.
I don't understand this.
What crime is Trump covering up?
Ah, very good.
Finally, that's the question.
But here's the thing.
What if the crime that you think you're trying to cover up isn't a crime?
If it's not a crime, is it still a crime because you thought it was a crime?
Do you see what I'm saying?
Is it an affirmative defense, or actually a defense, I should say, for you to say, he's got to be found not guilty of this, and the reason why is because he There's two parts of this.
To further another crime, not so much to cover up, but to further another crime.
You're doing this, you're involved in this, whatever this stuff is, to further.
Okay, I've been talking about this now for 17 minutes.
This is what I want you to do.
I want you to go out and when you talk to all your friends and all your MAGA friends and all this stuff, I want you to say, yeah, that's nice.
What does this have to do with the case?
Alvin Bragg's sitting pretty right now.
If he gets past the statute of limitations, if he gets past any other kind of pretrial motions, he's in.
This is a slam dunk.
What are you going to say?
This was like, it's like an old, we used to do bad check cases.
Those were simple.
When there were some, they used to do criminal cases.
State your name for the record.
We're the First National Bank, whatever.
On this date, did the defendant have money in his bank?
Nope.
And when he wrote this check on this date, did he?
Nope.
Okay, good.
That's it.
That's a check.
I don't care why he did it.
I don't care if he's getting money to raise funds for his daughter who needs cert.
It doesn't matter.
It's easy.
Now, let's talk about DeSantis.
This is where Oh, and let me just explain this again.
Let me go back to what I said.
Trump has to get into his head.
Stop talking about you.
This isn't about you.
I'm going to say this again for the millionth time.
You're trying to meet somebody to say, you know, this isn't right what they're doing.
This isn't right.
Can you count all the cases?
One, Manhattan.
Manhattan, as they say, I don't know why they say that.
Alvin Bragg case, that's number one.
Misdemeanor felony, probably felony, at best.
Which could be an acquittal, could be overturned on appeal, God knows what.
And it could go on forever and ever.
That's number one.
Number two, Jack Smith.
The Mar-a-Lago case.
The Mar-a-Lago case.
The document case.
Remember that one?
That's out there.
Number three, January the 6th.
They're not done with that one.
At all.
At all.
They love that case.
They, I mean, you, to them, this is the Alamo, Allende, Pinochet, this is Castro, the revolution, it's everything rolled up into one.
They are making this thing out to me.
Okay.
That's the third part.
And, I told you, seditious conspiracy.
It's pretty tough.
That's the third one.
Next, stop the steal in Georgia.
Is there something to be said for that?
Probably.
Sure.
You're going to say, there's nothing there.
Good.
You go pick up the phone and you call, hey Georgia, there's nothing there.
Okay, we'll stop.
The next one, which is really tough, is This E. Jean Carroll, this sexual battery case in Manhattan federal court.
Civil, but still doesn't.
And by the way, one more.
This is six now.
Tish James, in this $250 million, quarter of a billion dollar fraud, overpricing, overvaluating, whatever, and they want the Trump family never to be able to...
Okay, let me stop you right there.
Let me stop you right there.
I'm going to take this thing.
What is it?
I don't know.
It's this.
And I'm going to go into J.P. Morgan Chase.
I'm going to get a hold of Jamie Dimon.
And I'm going to say I want a loan.
Why?
I'm going to use this as collateral.
What is it?
This is worth $400 billion.
This.
And I'm going to pledge this.
As collateral security for the loans and whatever, line of credit, whatever I'm doing.
This, this is worth $400 billion.
Actually, it's a ball.
It's just a little toy.
But I say it's worth $400 billion.
And I'm unscrupulous.
And I'm a criminal.
And I'm trying to play this.
Okay?
Okay.
And Tish James.
Now, you know what Jamie Dimon would say?
Make it a billion.
Make it a trillion dollars.
Because we, as a bank, independently assess...
And value and evaluate and appraise anything you put up.
So whatever you call it, we're not going to write you a loan because you said it was worth a billion dollars.
Okay?
That's the price.
So, are you kidding?
What are my assets?
Well, my stats.
My net worth?
Well, I...
If you figure the equity of this and that, if you ever sold when businesses sell, oh my God, how about media companies?
Those are the best.
Put a value in that.
Well, our good name, goodwill, the tradition, this name, WXYZ Radio, well, it's worth, God knows, it's called puffery.
Yeah, good luck with that one.
Those are six cases.
Now the best thing going for Trump is that he's got this case to go forward.
This is the best one.
Tee off with this one.
And Alvin Bragg, Mr. Bragg, if you get this, if you nail this, if you get a conviction, I don't care if it's on a speeding ticket, parking ticket, Bookman from Seinfeld and returning the booklet.
Whatever it is.
Whatever it is.
You can write your own ticket, sir.
Write your own ticket.
AG, federal, federal judgeship, SCOTUS.
Wow.
But if you fail and you embarrass, can you say Alberto Gonzalez?
You will be in the ash heap of society.
Who?
Who?
There is so much that you can do.
Oh, my God.
Remember our good friend, remember Eric Holder?
Oh!
White shoe law firm.
Remember, was it Loretta Lynch?
Oh, man.
Eric Holder?
Corner office?
Some huge...
I mean, you're just...
You're just, you don't have to do anything.
You can be, well I shouldn't say that, you're there because you're there.
Kravath, Swain, Sullivan and Cromwell, Gibson, oh my god!
Latham, Watkins, oh my god!
And you, Mr. Bragg, good luck.
So a lot's riding on you.
Now, let's get to this question first.
But before I ask this question, I want you to listen to me.
And I want you to hear me out and let me explain to you something very, very important.
Number one, I want to make sure that you go and you are promising me that in addition to everything that we're doing right now, you make sure you subscribe to Lionel Legal, my other channel where I just do legal stuff.
The case you're not talking about, nobody is, is this Dominion case.
Oh my God, that is...
Trust me on that one.
It's huge.
Or as we say in the kitchen here, huge.
It's huge.
Okay, and also, are you signing up for my newsletter?
They are good.
They are good people.
Love them.
And as you can see, I call it the way I see it.
I'm not a MAGA person.
Half of the times I'm complaining about what President Trump has been doing for a variety of reasons.
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Okay.
Now, here's the question.
And let's see what you answer.
Can a President of the United States, former or current, be incarcerated?
Let's assume President Donald Trump is found guilty in a Manhattan court of either a misdemeanor, I don't know how, or a felony, Class E felony, for falsifying business records or whatever it is.
Can he be incarcerated?
Yes or no?
Yes or no?
Thank you, Jen Madison.
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See that?
I didn't tell Jen to do that.
She's telling the truth.
Can he be?
Yes.
Can he be incarcerated?
Yes.
What about the Secret Service protection?
What about that?
How does that work?
How does that work?
How do you do this?
Do you have to move into the cell with the resident?
What if he's incarcerated?
What if he says, okay, he's a misdemeanor.
I'll give you five months, kind of like the accountant did.
Five months in Rikers.
Is it possible?
I don't know how you would do that.
I don't know, technically, how a president could possibly be incarcerated when he has, by statute, by law, secret service protection.
I don't understand that.
I don't get it.
It makes no sense to me.
I believe, very frankly, that a President of the United States should never be incarcerated.
Absent his being the BTK killer or murder or something like that, no.
For the longest time, our country has believed in this wonderful proposition.
This is my rulebook right here.
The Constitution...
With all of my I Voted stickers here, but this is the Constitution of the United States.
And from time immemorial, from time immemorial, our drafters wanted to separate political from the criminal justice system.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Political.
When you want a person to leave office, you vote them out of office.
But if we provided the chance, To remove them via the law.
If we had the opportunity to charge somebody with a crime, well, anytime we don't like an election, we just charge somebody with a crime.
That's why you have to...
That's why you have to...
By the way, I'm getting word right now that in front of Trump Tower, there is more security.
Every dump truck you can imagine, on 57th and 5th, right now as we speak, I just got this, they said, it is, I mean, wow.
Wow.
That's all I'm saying.
Wow.
I'm getting all kinds of directions, you know, how to negotiate this, stay on the west side and blah, blah, blah.
Okay, now, it is important It is beyond critical.
It is beyond anything that you have ever imagined.
For you to understand that in our system, what we wanted to do was to make sure that nothing affects the franchise.
The franchise, the vote, it has to be protected.
And that's why anytime you believe that it is Not being done correctly, that it has been compromised, you as a citizen and as a patriot have the duty, the duty under the Constitution to make sure and ensure that the franchise, the election, the vote is protected.
Now, that doesn't mean you can make spurious claims, that doesn't mean you can defame People, I'm not going to go there yet, but you never have to ask permission to say, wait a minute, this vote, I'm not sure about that, okay?
You have to do it by the rules, according, but anyway.
So what they wanted to do years ago was they said, obviously, anytime we don't like a president, we just charge him with something.
So that's why you've got to impeach the president first.
You've got to impeach the president first to remove him before you charge him with a criminal offense.
He remains in...
They knew this.
They saw what was coming.
They knew this.
They saw this.
They knew that anytime a president, anytime anybody, whether you're Ted Stevens, whether you're Blagojevich, whoever you are, that it's critical to make sure that an unscrupulous or a negatively motivated prosecutor or...
Or justice system.
Couldn't just remove people they don't like.
That's all.
And that's what's critical.
And that's why, when it came time to impeach Bill Clinton, I was against it.
I don't like impeachment for a president?
Virtually never.
Everybody says now, impeach Biden!
For what?
For what?
You can have a hearing.
But we do it almost out of some kind of a patellar obeisance, this Pavlovian reflex.
Why do we say this?
Because we're just used to it.
I don't like you impeaching.
Impeach me.
Stop it.
We have a system here.
I like elections.
We can tolerate a lot.
There's a lot that a president can do which you might say, well, you know, this is illegal and wrong.
Let's just get rid of him.
Wait a minute.
Stop.
I don't care if it's Biden.
I don't care if it's Trump.
I don't care who it is.
Please tell me you understand this.
Please.
I don't want somebody to come around and say, let's work around this.
Let's take one part of government and use it against another.
I don't want this.
I'm a purist.
I believe in the Constitution.
I'm not saying this is my patriotism.
I don't wave any flags.
I probably have a flag.
I like my flag.
But that's not my thing.
I don't put up 1776 things and the Gadsden flag and the tree of liberty is fertilized with...
No, that's okay.
That's nice.
But no, no.
This is it.
It's imperfect as all hell.
It's absolutely, sometimes, I don't even think they were talking to each other when they came up with these various provisions, but it's what we have.
And then there's the spirit of this.
And what is happening right now, what you are seeing, is you are seeing people who are saying, let's try this angle.
We'll have the Mueller Commission.
We're going to say Russian collusion.
Of course, none found.
Doesn't matter.
Let's do this.
Are you a...
Excuse me.
Are you an election denier?
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
No, no, no, no.
Nothing found.
Nothing there.
And then this other group comes in.
And then we have...
We're going to use FISA courts.
Nobody ever...
Remember...
It was a Carter Page or...
This guy.
Why didn't he ever...
He could have owned the government with what they did to him.
FISA courts?
Dossiers?
Whatever happened?
I don't know.
We are under attack and nothing ever happens other than Jim Jordan goes on TV and slams or rips or does these things where he rips.
He goes on TV and he rips and he says, we're going to rip.
And why you rip?
And John Kennedy gets up and he makes these kind of southern, you know, I believe that my mama's, you know, that kind of thing.
It's like Sam Irvin, but not his.
This is where we are.
And you got Matt Gaetz, he's having fun.
And you got this, Marjorie Taylor Greene's having fun.
Everybody's having fun.
Nothing's being done.
Nothing's being done.
But they're out ripping.
That's it.
So when you tell me this is a political prosecution, where have you been, Sparky?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I always love this one.
Roger Stone.
Roger Stone.
Roger Stone was an idiot for speaking.
He didn't take the Fifth Amendment.
I don't understand what's the matter with him, but he decided, oh, I'm going to talk to him.
Okay, Roger.
All right, Mr. Glib.
There you go.
Anyway, they charge him with lying.
Nobody's ever, I don't know when anybody's ever been charged with lying to Congress or who knows.
I think it was, maybe it wasn't, wasn't it G. Gordon Linney?
Don't hold me to that.
2005, I believe.
Major League Baseball players.
Steroids?
I don't know.
My favorite, my favorite, my favorite was Mark McGuire.
Do we have to talk about this now?
I don't want to talk about the past.
Excuse me.
As John Kennedy will say, excuse me, testimony always involves you speaking of the past.
See, we don't ask you to come in and tell us what's happening now because we can see what's happening now.
And we don't allow you or prefer that you let people come in to tell us what's going to happen in the future.
So by definition, everything you say is what happened in the past.
So when you say, do we have to talk about the past?
Yes, we do.
That's why you're a witness.
That was my favorite line ever.
Do we have to talk about this now?
I love this.
License and registration officer, do we now?
Seriously, do we have to talk about what I was just doing?
Yes!
Yes!
Do we really?
Yes!
1994, whatever it was, tobacco is...
Nicotine, an addictive substance?
Nicotine?
Nicotine.
No.
Executive number two?
No.
Do I know of any evidence?
No.
Whatever happened with that?
I don't know.
Is that political?
What do you think?
Don't give me that.
That's political.
Please.
That's not saying it's unfair.
Stop it.
Stop it.
Alright, my friends.
That's all we're going to say for now.
Follow me on Did You Do This?
You better sign up for me on Lionel Legal on YouTube.
It's good.
It's good stuff.
My personal, private, super-duper adult channel, Lionel Media.
Ooh, that's good.
It's good, good, good.
And you have a great and a glorious day.
Remember, this is it.
It's about the Constitution.
That's it.
Okay?
Alright, my friends.
Have a great and glorious day.
Don't ever change and mean that sincerely.
We will talk tomorrow.
Seeing bad time.
Seeing bad channel.
9 a.m. Eastern Time.
Remember, line illegal.
Line illegal.
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Sign up.
Sign up.
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Those are damn good.
You understand?
John Kennedy would like it if he was here, too.
And also LionelMedia.com.
If the good Lord is willing, then the creek don't rise.
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