Louder with Crowder - End All SNAP Benefits | Change My Mind

Nov. 17, 2025 - Louder with Crowder

41:12

End All SNAP Benefits | Change My Mind

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	The obesity rate for low-income women in this country, okay, who are not on SNAP, 40%.
	You know what it is for those on SNAP?
	57%.
	So working-class Americans with kids not on SNAP, struggling, are paying to make other people fatter.
	How can we have a country with that?
	That's what's like, cut it, give out a few food stamps for a period of time, a few months, until you get back on your feet.
	Otherwise, get your ass to work.
	Look, I can get caviar.
	Would we take caviar off SNAP?
	Pardon my language?
	Isn't that ridiculous?
	Should some charity be able to look at caviar on Snap while the other person's eating canned ham?
	Does that seem right?
	No, a charity person would probably eat spam.
	That's fair.
	That's fair.
	If they do, do they like spam?
	Are they fans of spam?
	No.
	Okay.
	I don't like either.
	Welcome back to Change My Mind, where we reason through our positions on seemingly controversial topics.
	During our most recent and longest government shutdown to date, there were a lot of disruptions in the United States, including air travel, national parks, military.
	But no sector was talked about more, or one could argue, than the subject of SNAP.
	It goes out for the single mothers that got kids.
	Now, what can we do?
	We can't feed our kids.
	Let alone, if we do have jobs, again, what can we do?
	Around 42 million Americans depend on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, also known as SNAP.
	And who the f ⁇ they think celebrating these motherfucking holidays with no food stamps?
	I don't know where the f ⁇ we gonna get the food from.
	They showed that the Republicans don't actually believe their LMBS when it comes to populism, when it comes to funding SNAP.
	I will be at motherfucking Walmart with my spiel toes on and my motherfucking helmet and I dare a f ⁇ try to stop me from walking out that motherfucking store with my girlfriend Trump.
	It ain't nothing like, please, I'll go steal a whole turkey and a ham.
	Like, what I'd be natural to assume that a subject inspiring such strong feelings would be amongst the most necessary, virtuous programs allocated in the United States $7 trillion budget, right?
	But surprisingly, the truth is, it's not, which is exactly today's topic of discussion that took place at Oklahoma University in this installment of Change My Mind.
	The conversations ranged from productive-ish to cordial to a little or a lot off the rails.
	But you may be surprised by which students or canines had the most to offer.
	So sit back, but hold your chair tightly for this latest installment of Change My Mind and Snap.
	You know what?
	Let's get the off-the-rails stuff out of the way first.
	I can't fathom this idea that like Trump is, instead of cutting aid to say, stop funding the war in Ukraine, stop sending so much aid over to Israel, stop giving the rest of the world so much money, we're giving so much money away, like just can be to everybody.
	Stop getting paid by these lobbyists.
	Stop paying yourselves salaries even while the government's shut down.
	I think the stat I saw was we're giving Israel enough to where every citizen of Israel gets basically like a million dollars a year.
	We're giving like three to four billion to Israel, which we should stop, but over a hundred billion a year on SNAP.
	But the idea that we're giving Israel all of this money, it's not even our country, and then we're telling Americans, hey, get back to work at listen.
	You can't have Coca-Cola, you can't have candy, you can't have a nice meal for your family.
	You absolutely shouldn't have Coca-Cola or candy if you don't work.
	The $3 billion to Israel that we should also cut has nothing to do with it.
	It's less than a 50th.
	I just think we should solve all of those other extraneous problems before we start telling American citizens we can't have the nice luxuries.
	Yeah, you should work for Israel.
	Sure, you can't if you work for it.
	If you're looking at that car and it doesn't work going, not the engine, not the transmission.
	Let's fix the rear, the bolt on that hubcap.
	That would be the money to Israel.
	By the way, I say cut all of it, but it's not even close to SNAP, let alone if you get to what illegal immigration, the social safety nets, the welfare state that we have is so much astronomically higher.
	It's so much higher.
	That was horrible grammar.
	I'm tired.
	I've been here for about five hours at this point, and I just had to sit down with a furry and act like I didn't think it was degeneracy.
	But we're at the point now where we have to actually deal with the problem.
	And this is one of the primary problems.
	And I think that it's a red herring to say, yeah, yeah, but Israel, great.
	Cut it too.
	It's not even close.
	But we do have to bring up one of the problems.
	So I think we agree on principle.
	And I agree with you on all.
	We don't disagree on anything.
	Cut all of it.
	You want Coca-Cola?
	Go buy it.
	The deal you turned down from Ben Shapiro's corporation is worth $50 million.
	Sure.
	So the company, yeah, it employs about 30 people.
	A lot of money.
	And we're still funding Israel.
	We're still funding all of these militaries across the United States.
	We're in a deficit of our own military.
	We're funding the military, the United States.
	Well, we're in a deficit for our own, like, national protection.
	But it's not even close.
	Because of how much we're giving to them.
	So I do have questions though.
	Okay.
	Where do you make your money?
	Like, who funds you?
	It's entirely funded by viewers.
	Yeah, about 85% is people who choose to subscribe.
	So no outside money from donors, from nonprofits, and we do like one sponsor a day that makes up about 15% of revenue.
	Okay.
	Based on the demographic of SNAP recipients that I'm thinking of being like single mothers and based on the cancel inflation that you went through in 2021, do you see how that like is kind of like no, I don't.
	I don't see how it's relevant to subsidizing a government program that's a failure and rife with fraud.
	I just think it's interesting that you have put someone in a position of potentially needing to rely on that and then turn around and dunk on the other people who also need to rely on that.
	I think it's potentially interesting that you believe things that you see in the media and have no idea is the situation that she is.
	You think she's on SNAP, an ex-wife, but I'm not allowed to discuss it because that's the mother of my children.
	She's not going to be on SNAP.
	I'm glad you respect the mother of your children.
	Yeah, I'm not going to be discussing that.
	And I think it's a very feminist thing to then go like, well, since I can't actually argue this point, let me go to something personal when they're ushing in.
	Like the fold divorce thing, that's a whole other topic.
	I wish we would have talked about that instead.
	Biggest failure of Ronald Reagan.
	I think that would have been a lot more interesting, but like I know, but it's the sign We have to talk about the sign.
	I know it's a feminist thing to want to talk about whatever you want to talk about, but the sign is about SNAP.
	I brought it back in.
	Did you bring it back in?
	Yeah, I just think it's interesting that a lot of women end up on SNAP from situations like that.
	Yeah, to be honest with you, this was later in the day.
	Not all the conversations were taking place in good faith or were productive at all.
	And surprisingly, very few people had anything to disagree with once they knew the money on which we were spending these resources for SNAP.
	But this conversation was different from most we've had in the past and I would say productive.
	And this young lady is lovely as a button.
	Please welcome and be kind to Carter.
	Nice to meet you, Carter.
	Please grab a seat.
	And do you mind scooching in just so we can, for the camera, they can see.
	I don't know how familiar you are with these installments, this series, but I just try and set people a little more at ease.
	I'll tell you what it's not.
	It's not gotcha, it's not scoring points, it's not dunking, it's not meant to be clipped for reels, though people will do that.
	It was created almost a decade ago to have authentic conversations in good faith and see where we agree, disagree, and are able to present our opinions on controversial topics.
	Absolutely.
	It will not be uploaded, cut out of context like a Jon Stewart type thing.
	So that being said, a controversial topic, and I'm at my wit's end.
	I'm fed up with this the more I look into SNAP.
	Yeah, my position on this is end SNAP completely outright wholesale.
	If we want something like food stamps for bare necessities, create a separate program.
	It's so beyond repair and so corrupt.
	I think in 2025, done with SNAP.
	If you disagree, you're welcome to change my mind.
	Okay, let me give you some context.
	So I come from Adair County, Oklahoma.
	When I was growing up, it was the number one forest county.
	We've moved up in the world, and now we're the third forest county.
	Good for you.
	I know.
	Out of all 77.
	Yay!
	It's baby steps.
	Yes, I'm a Cherokee citizen.
	Cherokee Nation is very prevalent in my little Baytown.
	Even with Cherokee Nation, we still provide, we still depend on SNAP.
	Yeah.
	Why?
	Yes.
	Because it's a very rural, very small town, and we have a lot of small jobs that pay minimum wage, so people are not able to afford rent and eat.
	We heavily have to depend on horticulture, agriculture.
	We have, like, you know, a Tyson factory.
	We do so much of that kind of work, but that does not pay well.
	So, you know, we're paying to keep the lights on, not me personally.
	No, I get it.
	But people in my community are paying to have the lights on, but they still need to eat.
	There's still food insecurity in rural towns.
	And I think one thing people are forgetting is those rural towns.
	They're seeing the majority, but they're also not looking at the minority.
	You know.
	What do you mean by that?
	I think some people in the government are looking at the numbers and not the people in the geographical areas of where they're doing.
	Forgive me.
	What do you mean by those in the government?
	Because the government position has been overwhelming support for SNAP to the point that it's ridiculous.
	Where the number one purchased item is sugary sodas.
	That's $100 to $130 billion a year, $9 billion of which just go to soda alone.
	You can get everything on SNAP.
	You can get caviar on SNAP.
	You can get Halloween candy on SNAP, which I think is immoral and I think is ridiculous.
	Which is why if we want to go back to a food stamp program for bare essentials, well, that should help people who are in need.
	But it sounds to me like you're talking about a nation or the Cherokee Nation and this neighborhood, sorry, our community was most poor to third poorest.
	Sounds to me like you're almost advocating for perpetual use of SNAP, which we know has been very prevalent in the Native American community.
	And would you say that's made the Native American community stronger or weaker?
	How's it doing?
	It has made it stronger, but since we're not always recognized, it's not built for that yet.
	What do you mean?
	Like, we're in a very poor rural area, but we're not able to change it dramatically because we're not having more people invest and spend time and work more in our rural areas because they're going to bigger and better places.
	Why do you think that other rural areas are able to do so?
	There are other rural areas that aren't that poor and certainly not for decades at a time.
	Why do you think it's so specific to the Native American community who get far more, disproportionately more, government benefits and contribute less?
	Why do you think that is?
	Sometimes there's a rich person who gives a big amount, whether it be scholarship or funds that are coming in.
	Sorry, I'm shaking.
	No, that's okay.
	By the way, it's okay.
	I still get nervous all the time every time I do this.
	Let me, if this helps you, let me present you my position.
	Okay.
	Would that help?
	Okay.
	And just let me know, too, if you want, because I don't want to dominate the conversation, but I also know you don't sit and talk as much for a living, so if it helps.
	I would say that it has kneecapped and irreparably damaged the Native American community.
	I would say the Native American community has been handicapped.
	They're not a particularly industrious people because they don't have to be and because they are ultra-reliant on government services.
	And I would say that let's grant your scenario, which I wouldn't say is necessarily true in most scenarios, but a wealthy person coming in and investing in a community.
	Sure, that can be helpful.
	Those people would be very, very hesitant to invest in a community that seems to be dependent in perpetuity forever on government assistance with no interest in getting off of it.
	That would be, I mean, I would say that.
	I would say that there's a reason that not only is that one of the poorest communities, but Native American reservations, despite having advantages in a lot of ways, pretty much everyone looks like an episode of cops.
	It's bad.
	It's bad.
	Let's just be honest, right?
	They don't look beautiful.
	They're not nice.
	And we've been doing it this way with government assistance and subsidies.
	Maybe do it a different way.
	Maybe if you cut people off and go, no, you got to start, you got to start doing what everyone else does.
	You got to start trolling by the sweat of your brow.
	Maybe they would become more industrious because I don't think it's helped the Native American community.
	And I say that because it's a microcosm.
	There is a huge over-reliance on government subsidies, welfare, social safety benefits in the Native American community.
	But now apply that at large.
	That's what happens with SNAP EBT.
	People stay on it.
	60% of people on it are able-bodied.
	We can't reform it at all.
	If the government can't cut Coca-Cola from SNAP, then we can't cut anything.
	Enjoy your debt.
	You're a lot younger than me.
	If we can't have work requirements 80 hours a month, which is what's opposed by the Democrat Party, then we can't have any requirements.
	That's why I say we got to do away with it wholesale and do something else.
	Do you think we should change it to, at the very least, hey, get rid of soda, treats from SNAP?
	I would say soda and more health conscious things, but not to get away with it altogether.
	Well, to kind of compromise with SNAP.
	Well, so here's the thing.
	You can't compromise with SNAP because you can't cut soda, right?
	There was a huge outcry of people going, that's a violation.
	Hey, you can't determine what these people, everyone deserves treats.
	First off, not everyone deserves treats.
	Second, for me, it's pretty simple.
	You pay, you choose.
	I pay, the taxpayer, I choose.
	Milk, eggs, meat, produce, and fabric software.
	Otherwise, get to work.
	Is that fair?
	No, that's not fair?
	There should be some choice in that.
	I don't think there should be any choice.
	I would be, our soldiers get MREs and they have to pay for them.
	Why should someone who's able-bodied, choosing not to work, get anything better than our soldiers?
	Are you aware of like, and this is, this is not, this is like, so SNAP, because you mentioned the, this is true.
	If you go to Amazon, right?
	Snap EBT, okay, right here.
	So I work, I pay taxes, right?
	And there are a lot of Americans who work and pay taxes who are poor, low-income Americans, right?
	Not on SNAP.
	You get 50% off your prime membership.
	You get unlimited groceries for $4.99 a month.
	Let me show you what's in the groceries.
	La Vaza coffee, $25.
	Rockstar, Ghost Energy.
	Hey, let's go down to snacks and treats.
	When you say choice, these are the choices right now that tax pre-filled pumpkin buckets of assorted Halloween candy.
	Does that seem like helping someone with a tough break?
	And how do we make the case to low-income Americans that they should fund that?
	Because they are.
	Well, a lot of them have children.
	Okay.
	So do the people paying taxes who are working for a living.
	Right?
	I mean, because people say it's taken from the rich, given to the poor.
	And you look obviously very spelt, and I'm sure you know that obesity is a problem in the country.
	It doesn't affect you.
	Probably affects me more than you.
	I have some that I could lose.
	But the obesity rate for low-income women in this country, okay, who are not on SNAP, 40%.
	You know what it is?
	For those on SNAP, 57%.
	So working class Americans with kids, not on SNAP, struggling, are paying to make other people fatter.
	How can we have a country with that?
	That's what's like, cut it.
	Give out a few food stamps for a period of time, a few months, until you get back on your feet.
	Otherwise, get your ass to work.
	Can you understand why?
	And by the way, I wasn't raised wealthy.
	And I know those people.
	I work with these people.
	I've spent my whole life with these people who, out of pride, would not take SNAP or EBT.
	And when they find out what they're paying for, that's a really tough pill to swallow.
	So could we, so I just say, do away with food stamps for essentials for a very limited amount of time, work requirements, meaning, I think it should be more than 80 hours a week.
	I think to get anything, you should be working, sorry, 80 hours a month.
	Sorry.
	It's 20 hours a week.
	Yeah, I think it should be a full work week, and you get a very temp, you get very temporary relief.
	But I don't think it can be through the SNAP program.
	I didn't know this until yesterday.
	I didn't see how just, you can get, look, I can get caviar.
	Would we take caviar off SNAP?
	Pardon my language?
	Isn't that ridiculous?
	Should some Cherokee be able to get caviar on SNAP while the other person's eating canned ham?
	Does that seem right?
	No, a Cherokee person probably eats Sam.
	It's a favorite.
	That's fair.
	That's fair.
	Do they like Spam?
	Are they fans of Spam?
	No.
	Okay.
	I don't like either.
	This is sturgeon caviar.
	Pardon my language.
	What the f ⁇ ?
	Like, how are we at this point as a country when we're talking about being fiscally responsible and people who aren't working, who are able-bodied, are getting caviar or potentially through SNAP?
	Could we agree that maybe that's a broken system that we have to do away with it, start from the ground up with essentials?
	And I say less choice.
	Okay, when you come from that standpoint, I have to agree with you.
	Okay.
	Slightly because you're corrupting me in that aspect.
	Well, I ranted because you said it would help you.
	So now the floor is yours.
	Yes, yes.
	I'll give you that.
	Starting from the ground up is very hard.
	I just hope there isn't a trickle-down system to it.
	I mean, I'm not sure.
	Never mind.
	And I think we agree.
	I think, to be fair, I think you didn't know how bad it was.
	Is that fair?
	Yes.
	I think you thought, man, someone who's struggling, who's getting bare essentials, I don't think you realize that people who can work, who choose not to, are getting fatter on this shit, all done in the name of equity.
	Okay, can I branch off of that?
	Do you think some of those people are mentally declined?
	Do you think they have mental illness?
	Do you think they have mental illness?
	So, and I understand.
	There's a difference with that.
	People, like, for example, veterans, but there are other ways to deal with those.
	You know, there are other ways to deal with, and we can categorize those, but we're not.
	So that's, again, why I say if you defund this to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars a year, you'd actually be able to allocate the funding more effectively to the people you're talking about who need it.
	I do agree that we should help handicap veterans.
	They've served their country.
	I do believe that if people are actually mentally handicapped, whatever, adjudicated, mentally defective, whatever term you want to use, that they could use some help.
	I think we could also help by removing some of the red tape for charities.
	I did volunteer work with these special needs.
	They would all live in homes together.
	These were private charities.
	They do a friendship club thing every, I think it was Tuesday of the week where we bring in food.
	And a lot of that is hard because of the red tape.
	But I think that we need to separate that.
	That's not who's typically using SNAP.
	And those people end up being shortchanged because that person is treated the exact same as an able-bodied baby mama who eats Halloween candy.
	Yeah, I think that's fair.
	I'm passionate because I had someone here try to do a bomb threat, so I'm a little bit hornry.
	And I got a furry who's looking to argue with me.
	Yeah, I thought the furriers could cut the line.
	I got a little scared for a second.
	I've been here since news.
	Oh, have you?
	Well, I don't know.
	What do you want me to say to the furry?
	It's okay.
	It's just between you and me.
	It's weird, right?
	Should I just go guns blazing and say, stop being degenerate?
	I think everyone has a right of free will.
	Sure.
	Fine.
	I just don't have to act like it's normal.
	You put on a mascot costume.
	You know the scariest thing I ever saw in my life?
	Since I think this has been a friendly conversation.
	And I'm trying to put you at ease.
	Hopefully this helps, but I'm being a little silly.
	One of the scariest things I ever saw, and I mean like testicle disappearingly scary.
	I was at a flea market in a rural area of Michigan, and it wasn't just a furry, but it was a furry in a full mascot outfit who put on top of it slacks and like a t-shirt to be a furry during Casual Friday.
	I was like, that is a disturbed individual.
	That was one of the scariest things.
	And just looking through, like, oh, look, look at these old books.
	Haggling.
	Scariest moment of my life.
	Also, when someone tried to kill me, but you know, it's neck and neck.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Those two things.
	Almost up in a snake, seeing the furry.
	Yeah.
	Well, thank you, Carter.
	I appreciate the perspective.
	And what, do you know what percent you are a Cherokee or?
	Two percent.
	Two percent.
	I grew up there, so you know, I got to learn a little bit more than most people.
	So I'm very, very passionate about it.
	Yeah.
	Well, I'm glad that you're at school, and I'm glad you're better in your situation.
	And you're walking proof that people can do it.
	That people, regardless of circumstances, can better their lives and manifest their own, you know, their own future.
	Absolutely.
	So I really do appreciate it.
	I mean that.
	I appreciate it.
	Because I know it can be tough if you come from a rough spot.
	Oh, yes.
	Thank you, Carter.
	Thank you very much.
	Hopefully, it helped.
	I did dominate the conversation, but with silly horse shit.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Thank you, Carter.
	God bless.
	Be well.
	Yeah, as you can see, I did a lot more talking there than is typical for Change My Mind.
	But you know what?
	It's healthy to be nervous when you're speaking publicly.
	It's like the number one fear in the United States.
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	FoundationDaily.com, if you're interested, please leave a like or a comment below what you want to see in the future of Change My Mind.
	As for right now, on to this, The thing.
	All right.
	Do you mind if I ask you to scooch in for the camera?
	I know it's going to be hard to navigate with the mascot head.
	What's your name, sir?
	Can you spell it for the camera?
	Just say you consent to talking.
	Yeah, Twistle, T-W-Y-S-T-A-L.
	Okay.
	Is this your furry name or your biological name?
	I prefer not to.
	Okay.
	But you do consent to sitting down and discussing, and you're not going to go to YouTube and say that's not really me?
	No.
	Okay, all right.
	So Crystal.
	I don't know how from.
	Oh, Twistle?
	Twistle, yeah.
	Twistle, Twistle.
	Does that have any significance, like the name, or is it just a cool name?
	Yeah, so it comes from my interests, which are geology and meteorology.
	I really enjoy those.
	So it's Twister plus Crystal.
	You can see, I don't know, 20 or 50.
	Oh, okay.
	What kind of owl is that?
	Huh?
	Do you know what kind of owl that is?
	I don't know.
	No?
	I just thought it was a cool shirt.
	I like owls.
	You know, the owls, the thing that's cool about them, if you've seen them, if you've ever actually watched them catch a rodent, they can be completely silent on approach.
	I've heard about that.
	Yeah, it's pretty cool.
	Did you ever see the movie Guardians of Gahul?
	I haven't.
	It's awesome.
	I still say to this day, the best animation.
	Sorry.
	I'm tired, so I'm a little scattershot.
	Twistle, I don't know how familiar you are with this series or these installments.
	What we do, let me just kind of set you at ease.
	It's not designed to be, gotcha score points on the topic at hand.
	This was pre-Debate Bro, pre-Youtube shorts when it started, and clips.
	It'll be uploaded, you know, provided we both have a conversation in good faith in its entirety.
	So you will not be taken out of context, even if it's a controversial topic.
	So this topic right now, I obviously just switched it, is I think that in 2025, considering the abysmal failure, the corruption, it is beyond repair, we absolutely need to wholesale, cut, snap, done, and if anything, put something else in its place.
	If you disagree, Twistle, you're welcome to change my mind.
	I mean, I don't know much about this topic, so I would not, I prefer not to give any comment.
	At least when they invited me here, they said it was mostly going to be about like the...
	Oh, okay.
	So, Twistle, what would you like to talk about?
	And this is, just to be clear, this is something you really do.
	You're not trolling.
	Right.
	Right?
	Because there are people who do that.
	I'll say, like, one of the biggest misconceptions about furries in general is that we think we're animals.
	I do not think I'm an animal.
	I know I'm a human.
	There are a small subsection called Thurians who identify spiritually with animals.
	That's one of the biggest misconceptions I've seen is that people assume that we think they're.
	Okay.
	And by the way, just because I have to get the mic close to you, if you feel this, just know that's the microphone.
	I'm not trying to knock you.
	I just have to get it close.
	So then what is it to you?
	Why do you do the whole furry thing there?
	So to me, it's, again, kind of like a reflection of my interests.
	This is a character that I designed.
	Yeah.
	Like, I didn't make this costume, but I had an artist draw out kind of what I had in mind.
	Again, the name comes from Twister and Crystal because I just wanted to be able to express all of my interests all at once.
	The color scheme comes from weather, pretty much.
	Brown, rain, yellow, lightning, gray, black, clouds.
	And the shape in the middle of the forehead, the yellow one, I don't know if you see that.
	Yeah.
	It's supposed to be a type of crystal for the Japan Wall Twin.
	It kind of looks like an N64 era heart because it's like a polygonal heart.
	Yeah, it kind of does.
	So I just thought it was like all love.
	But, okay.
	Let me ask you this, Twistle.
	And the good thing is, people won't know your real identity, so hopefully you can shoot me straight.
	Are you one of these people you've discussed?
	Or what percentage of your community would you say also have some type of sexual proclivity or it being included in their identity as a furry?
	So I would say that I can't put any percentage on it, but it's not necessarily an insignificant number.
	It's a pretty high number, isn't it?
	I mean, I don't know.
	So I wouldn't, I can't say any number.
	I honestly don't know.
	But I do know people that do have that side.
	For me, I choose to stay away from it for the most part in terms of art, the costume.
	But wait, for the most part.
	So that means you probably experimented a little bit with sex stuff.
	I have friends that are into that side, and I pretty much stay with them.
	You keep saying pretty much that you have an experience early on in college or something like that.
	Again, no one will know.
	I've never had any kind of experiences with the costume.
	I do not want to.
	You don't want to?
	Partly because this is extremely expensive.
	Don't want to get it dirty.
	It is a messy endeavor.
	So I definitely stay away from not safe for work side.
	Okay.
	Now do you have a full outfit that goes along with the head or do you just wear the head?
	I have hand claws.
	Yeah.
	Is that a cost thing where you kind of do it in installments and build it?
	You can, or you can do it all at once if you have enough money, depending on who you want it for.
	Okay.
	Let me ask you, what type of intersect do you think there's with like LGBTQ?
	Because a lot of people think it's now just a modern expression of gender.
	And I will tell you this, a lot of people view it as degeneracy when it's an expression of gender, sexuality, because those things should be kept in private.
	What exactly are you asking me?
	Well, you know, when you look online and you look at the furry community, there's usually a lot of the intersectional sort of camaraderie there with LGBTQ and they sort of tag it along to it.
	So whether you intend for it to be or not, that is the perception that's by design from a lot of activists in the furry community.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I would say that LGBTQ is not at all an insignificant proportion.
	There is a significant proportion of the fandom that is LGBTQ.
	I mean, what they do is not my business.
	So can't really comment too much on that.
	Yeah, but what if the furry community is seen as sort of a quasi-ambassadorship of LGBTQ?
	Because it's all about breaking down societal norms, gender norms, you know, healthy approach to human interaction.
	And I'm going to tell you, I don't love it.
	But I'll have a conversation.
	I also don't love people's positions on SNAP and on illegal immigration.
	I think we want to do it at a costume party, but I think walking around in society where people have to adapt to it is uncomfortable, and I do think it's pretty abnormal.
	Well, let me say this.
	Do you understand that, though?
	Yeah.
	Furries generally do not just walk around this in their everyday life.
	I only wore it here today because I was asked by the president to bring it.
	They reached out to me a few days ago asking if I was interested in coming down.
	And I was very hesitant.
	The president of what?
	Turning Point USA is a U2.
	Oh, okay.
	So they asked you to.
	So are you involved with them?
	No.
	No.
	Do they just kind of know you on campus as a furry person?
	They saw me on campus because I was with a group of friends on Halloween.
	We were just walking around campus handing out candy.
	They took a picture of us and posted it saying, imagine if people thought they could be animals.
	How scary is this?
	And I left a comment saying, well, I actually don't think I'm an animal.
	And then they ended up messaging me asking if I was interested.
	But you have friends who think they do view themselves as quasi-animals, right?
	You say in the community?
	They exist in the community.
	None of my friends personally fall into that category, but some, a very small portion do have like, they say they have a spiritual connection.
	Yeah.
	Or a sexual one.
	Like I said, it's not an insignificant portion.
	Do you speak out against it a lot?
	Do you feel that you're tarded and you're kind of lumped in with the same lot?
	Because it is incumbent.
	If you're just saying, like, hey, it's a costume and it's art.
	You know, I like Halloween.
	We do sketches.
	But when you have a chorus of people saying, hey, this is just as legitimate as heteronormative styles, by the way, we're tagging on with LGBTQ, isn't it incumbent upon you to say, no, that's kind of degenerate to try and thrust a sexual preference like this into the public spotlight.
	I mean, I'll say what most cases of that happening are in a private setting.
	Whatever they do is not my business.
	And so I would just leave it to them to do another.
	Sure.
	But if someone is wearing it out in public, it is everyone else's business, like, hey, why are you doing this?
	Wearing it out in public is one thing versus just versus like right, but it's associated with, you know, the destruction.
	You know this, right?
	That I don't want to talk in circles.
	The destruction of heteronormative sexual behavior.
	And people are kind of at the point where we're like, yeah, we're less accepting of it because we live in an era where everything has become acceptable and it doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy for society.
	Costume is one thing, but identifying that way and everyone around having to be like, yeah, let's just treat this like it's my friend Doug is not really a good thing.
	I mean, I don't identify as this idea of whenever I wear it.
	Okay.
	Whenever I wear it, it is only to things like social meetups when other people are there.
	They're conventions.
	Yeah.
	And conventions, I'll tell you, there's a side of them that almost nobody gets to see.
	There are some seriously positive interactions.
	There's some seriously disgusting ones, too.
	There are.
	I ended up accidentally at WebCon.
	Does that ring a bell?
	You know what that is?
	I do not.
	Oh my gosh.
	I was going to an Easter thing at a Gaylord Hotel.
	And it wasn't Easter.
	It was WebCon.
	And by the third SNM Spider-Man slash furry, I was like, I got to get, I hit the fire exit with my kids.
	So if someone sees that, right, you say they don't see the positive interactions.
	But they see the freaky stuff, right?
	Why do you think that's always on public display?
	Why do you think if I go on X or Instagram, there's always some weird quasi-sexual energy with the furry community?
	And how accepting do you think that Americans should be of that?
	Well, you could, what I would say is, if something like that is happening out in public, it's more likely to make the news.
	For example, like I'll tell you.
	Well, no, no, but if they do it in private, but then they're dressed as a furry in public, people are going, oh, well, that's one of those people because they've made their identity being a furry, and that also is part and parcel of their sexual identity.
	Yeah, I don't see that that's part of, that's where that misconception of everybody does it because it's a sexual thing comes from.
	Like, for example, whenever I was at a convention in Dallas, I did a presentation on how to find your own crystals.
	I had about 80 or so people show up and had about 100 crystals on display.
	I gave away half of them.
	Everybody left home with one.
	And it was strictly educational.
	And it was amazing.
	I had a really awesome time.
	People learned about rocks.
	I got to talk about what I was passionate about for an entire hour to a group of people that had no idea what that was beforehand.
	And there is a huge side of that that just largely goes unnoticed.
	So it's kind of more of like a Rocky Horror Picture Show thing for you where it's like you're into this and you think it's a reflection of art and it's just something you do.
	It's not really who you are.
	Yeah, it's something, like, I'll tell you, the number of times I've worn this this semester, like, is, I can, I don't want that.
	It's not something I do often at all, and it's only with other people.
	Sure.
	We mean with other furries.
	Yeah.
	So you don't like wear this into class and expect everyone to act like, yeah, yeah, just normal.
	And you would agree that like that would be weird and rude and people weren't accepting of like, you can't just come in in this fur helmet in the middle of class.
	I mean, it would be unusual.
	I wouldn't say anything, but it's not what most furries do.
	It's not what most furries do.
	kind of keep it separate.
	Let me ask, what do you get out of this that you wouldn't get out of like, could you say it's art, like that you don't get out of like say a painting or like, you know, making a movie or a poem?
	For one, I don't consider myself to be creative at all.
	I cannot draw, I cannot paint, I can't, I have a very hard.
	I mean, I've even tried like music composition, which I can't, even though I play instruments.
	I just don't see myself as creative enough to be able to do okay.
	So it's a reflection of art without the creative element?
	The creative aspect comes from being able to like design it yourself.
	Yeah.
	So like, yes, I came, I conceptualized this entire thing through analysis.
	Okay.
	I had an artist kind of draw out what I was writing visions.
	And when I decided I like that, it's a reflection of my interests, my weather, my rocks, and just went from there.
	Let me ask you this.
	And actually, I will say, I wouldn't quite say you're changing my mind, but you've clarified some things.
	I've had furries, by the way, on the show who they were there to distance themselves from some of the, you know, a lot of, a lot of, funny enough, not funny enough, but coincidentally enough, not a lot of death threats and radicalism comes from the furry community on the left.
	And I know Charlie Kirk had to deal with that too.
	But it sounds like you're saying this is a separate component, like people who might have a hobby.
	Community, right?
	It sounds like you'd find a sense of community.
	The sense of community is supposed to ultimately enable you to function more effectively and be less lonely in society at large.
	If you had a son and he said he wanted to become a furry and he was a young guy, would you be concerned because of the less tasteful components of the community?
	Or would you say like, hey, it's great.
	It's just like getting in soccer?
	I mean, I would offer like words of caution, just like people with these kinds of things.
	But ultimately, I'd be protecting whatever choice he chose.
	And that's kind of what my parents do.
	They know.
	And they're actually very supportive.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Twistalist may be too personal.
	You don't have to answer, okay?
	Hopefully, I've been respectful enough.
	Do you have a girlfriend or is it a girlfriend you've never met because she's also, she too is in a furry mask?
	No, no, no.
	No, no.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, you know, okay.
	Yeah, all right.
	What's the biggest misconception about the furry thing that you would say?
	If you can right now tell the world, hey, furries are not X or Y.
	I would say furries do not think that they're humans.
	Okay.
	But some do, but some do.
	A very tiny proportion.
	Like you're taking a very tiny proportion and applying it to everything.
	Yeah.
	I don't think I'm an animal.
	I know I'm a human, and I know I'm a human in the way God made me.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Let me have a final question.
	Because I have a dog, the sweetest dog on the planet, but I guarantee you if he saw you like this, he'd go ape shit.
	If a dog attacks a furry, you don't blame the dog.
	Do you get it?
	If the dog is, if the dog is unnerved, it must happen all the time.
	I've never had any kind of experience.
	For the most part, they're kind of scared.
	Yeah?
	I mean, my cat's kind of freaked out for the first time they're sitting there.
	Okay, there you go.
	So take a cat at 120 pounds of a cape.
	And my dog would not like it.
	He didn't like some people where they were working on the lawn with gators over their face.
	And he like, it's the one time I saw him not like it.
	This would drive him nuts.
	So as long as you understand that, you know, I don't want furries going around blaming, having dogs euthanized because they acted, they're like, hey, this is weird.
	I've never seen any kind of event like that.
	Oh, it's not impossible.
	Oh, I guarantee you it happens all the time.
	One more thing I would like to clarify.
	Yes, Twistle.
	So, furry conventions in general are actually one of the best things for local charities.
	I don't know if you're familiar with this, but usually every convention will be raising money for some kind of charity.
	A lot of the times, it's like a local animal shelter.
	Yeah.
	For example, one convention I attended in Pittsburgh 2024 actually raised about $100,000.
	That's great.
	For local, I believe it was a shelter for senior dogs.
	Okay.
	And every year they do different ones, do different charities within the area.
	These things raise tens of thousands of dollars.
	All right.
	Well, I think that's a great thing.
	So, all right, well, Twistle, thank you.
	We gotta, hopefully, if you can see the hand, we got other people who want to come up.
	But thank you, man.
	I appreciate it.
	Thanks for illuminating the subject of furried them, I guess.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, man.
	Be well.
	I know we didn't really talk about Snap because the truth is there weren't that many takers, but Twistle was fun.
	It was...
	The conversation happened.
	I mean, what, you think I'm not going to take the opportunity to talk with a furry who shows up in normal human society?
	Of course I am.
	It actually seemed like a decent person, guy.
	Anyway, you know the thing.
	Please stay tuned for the next installments of Change My Mind and let me know what kinds of conversations, what topics you would like to see.

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