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Nov. 23, 2022 - Louder with Crowder
56:28
There Are Only 2 Genders (3rd Edition) | Change My Mind
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But you're a classical liberal in that sense, because even though we disagree, you can sit down, express your point of view, and some people on the left view that in and of itself as adding fuel to the fire.
Yeah.
And I would argue adding fuel to the fire is simply trying to eliminate voices from the conversation.
That, or just being completely polarizing and just being like, you suck.
Right, yeah.
the world.
Now, today's subject is an oldie, but I would argue a goodie, in there are only two genders.
Now, I should note, I first covered this topic on Change My Mind all the way back in 2017.
The discussion around gender in the United States and globally certainly has undergone a major transition.
No pun kind of intended.
We went from the argument back then of gender being socially constructed and existing outside of a binary to now arguing that there are limitless genders and biological terms for sex being used interchangeably with those of gender.
She is now the first female and openly transgender four-star officer with the U.S.
Public Health Service Commissioned Corps.
A transgender female inmate has been moved to a men's prison after impregnating two other biological female inmates.
After studying Leah Thomas' times, from male to female, he says, statistically, she is an outlier.
So why the drastic change in record time?
And how exactly did the students at Texas Women's University rationalize it?
Well, meet Gabriela, who may just have provided my favorite conversation in all of Change My Mind history.
See if you can find out why.
Steven, nice to meet you.
My name's Gabriela, nice to meet you.
Gabriela, nice to meet you.
Oh, thank you very much.
You know what?
That's actually an incredible compliment.
And I'll tell you why.
Because I didn't realize until very recently that everyone's feet didn't hurt their whole life.
Oh, yeah, mine too.
Yes, sir.
extra extra wide feet and then I finally found a company they said oh yeah you
just have wide feet you need to buy wide shoes and these are the only shoes that
I have now because they're the only ones I can find so I'm glad that they're okay
so Gabriella thank you for taking the time sitting down sorry I have a little bit of dry mouth
You've been talking for a while.
I don't know how familiar you are, if at all, with the kind of change-of-mind concept, but... Okay, so it's an opportunity to sit down and hopefully rationalize our positions on seemingly controversial topics.
This is one that, to me, is interesting because I'm revisiting it.
I did it years ago, and back then...
Will you repeat that again?
It's interesting some of the arguments that were presented because we've sort of blown past them today.
The idea that sex and gender are different, separate.
Well, we kind of don't subscribe to that anymore today.
Everyone back then when I would say, hey, I'm concerned about us going on the path of your
children transitioning, they would say, that's absurd, that's a logical fallacy.
And of course we know that.
I'm sorry, I wear hearing aids.
Oh, I apologize. Do you mind moving in and I'll move in too?
Oh, of course.
As long as you're okay with it, I'll make sure to speak into it.
Of course.
I didn't want to get up in your personal space.
No, that's okay.
But, for example, I used to discuss concerns, bring up concerns of children transitioning.
Back then, they would say, well, that's absurd, that's a logical fallacy.
Of course, here we are where it's law in several states.
So, that's the reason I thought it would be interesting to revisit it, considering how we've accelerated at light speed.
And I still maintain that there are two genders.
And if you disagree with me, I'd be...
I'm more than happy to hear your point of view and you can try and change my mind.
Okay.
So you... And what is your stance on this again?
That there are two genders.
Okay.
I personally disagree.
And I know many people that of course do agree with this.
Again, I very much disagree because I view sex and gender as two things.
And typically, whenever you hear about biological sex, typically it's male or female.
Of course, you have people who are intersex and stuff like that, and I do view gender and sex as two different things, and I definitely do view gender as a spectrum.
Can I ask you a question?
Yes, sir.
On what do you base that?
Why do you believe that, that gender is different from sex?
Why?
Yeah, where did you start believing that?
So, the definition of sex is that it is biological.
So that means chromosomes, hormones... Primary, secondary, sexual factors.
Yes.
Yeah, sure.
And gender is very much a... I don't want to say psychological thing.
I know what you mean.
Sure.
But gender is very much...
I know what you mean.
Yes, it's very much an identity.
That's why typically the term gender and gender identity are grouped together.
Sure.
And so that's how I personally see that.
So what's interesting to me actually, sorry I'll lean in.
What's interesting to me is what you're saying is actually what the kinds of arguments that were presented to me years
ago.
That gender and sex are different.
But that's not what's even being taught today.
So, for example, you have this administration, Joe Biden, referring to Rachel Levine not as our first woman four-star admiral, but first female.
And now when you look on government forms, if you're transgender, you will check the female box, depending on the form.
So we are using them fundamentally interchangeably, and I would say the reason for that is because it was only up until very recently that sex and gender were used interchangeably.
The idea that they are separate is a very modern theory.
I would argue it's not rooted in reality.
It started with French existentialism and then through postmodern feminism.
And now we end up at the point where no one can agree on how many genders there are or what we should do with children who are transgender because we've decided to tear down an institution but have replaced it with nothing.
So, um... Okay.
Sorry, I'm trying to.
It's very hard to hear.
And please let me know if you don't hear.
You need me to repeat myself.
I understand.
Yes, sir.
Would you mind repeating that?
Yeah, I was just saying that... You can also turn these up.
Oh, okay.
I just don't know if it's going to interview with the microphone.
So let me know if you need me to repeat.
Oh, it's fine.
As long as it doesn't touch my hearing aid.
Because if it does, it'll be a very loud microphone.
Oh no, and I appreciate you understanding that I need to get close and not being uncomfortable.
And I apologize for my breath because I've been talking for three hours.
No, I completely understand.
It probably smells like a turtle cage.
No, what I was saying is the idea that gender and sex are separate is very new and it's not used consistently anymore because you now have men and women checking, for example, transgender male to females, checking female boxes, not woman boxes on government forums.
You have the Former President of the United States Joe Biden, President of the United States, referring to Rachel Levine as the first female four-star admirable, right, Secretary of Health.
They're using, they're using biological terms and the reason for that is that they've always been interchangeable until very recently.
That's a very modern change and I would argue that that's why they're not even able to be consistent with that.
So I don't understand the basis for someone saying that gender is separate from sex if it's not even agreed upon by the left and transgender activists today.
So, you say that it wasn't until very recently.
I don't know how recent you're talking.
Sure.
Yes, I can answer.
So it actually, and I would encourage you, if you do, you can go research this, because if I provide people my resources, they think I'm just lying, but I make them publicly available.
Started with, there was a lady named, there was someone named Simone de Beauvoir, 1949, was the first person to say that sex is biological and gender is societally constructed, right?
This was the first time that idea was floated.
Yes.
But it still existed within the binary that women could identify as men, but men could identify as women, but not this idea that there were other genders.
It was still two, but that it was largely societal.
It was reiterated by a few other people.
Then, you may have learned this in college, the John Money Twins study.
Did you learn that?
Yes.
Where you raised one as a girl, one as a boy?
So yeah, that was taught.
I believe it's still taught in school.
I don't know if you know, but both of those boys died.
One committed suicide.
I believe the other from a drug overdose because he sexually molested them.
And the reason that's important is because, as you've acknowledged, that was taught on college campus.
If you raise a twin as a boy and a twin as a girl, it was proof that it was societally constructed.
But it actually had lethal ramifications.
Both of them had all kinds of mental health disorders and ended up offing themselves, which is a tragedy.
But it still, even with John Money, existed within the binary.
Only until Judith Butler in the 80s and 90s did they say gender is societally constructed and, by the way, there are more than two genders.
And it was not created by, it was not a theory that was floated from scientists, from doctors.
It was floated from existentialists and feminists.
It's not rooted in reality, and before that, gender was really a grammatical term.
You know, from the romance languages, like, I speak... French is my first language, or, you know, any of the languages based in Latin, right?
All nouns are gendered.
So it's a very new theory.
It's not like it's something that's been agreed upon for a long time, and now we've come full circle, where we're using them interchangeably again, because we're calling transgender men to women females.
That's a sex term, not a gender term.
But those are the terms we use, male to female, right?
Typically, man, woman, male, female are used interchangeably.
However, I still do believe that they are both very different.
Because you say that it's not used a lot today.
I'm a pre-nursing student, so we are very much taught that yes, inherently they are different.
I've learned that in my anatomy classes, which it's not touched on a lot because you very much do biological.
Sure.
Well, you would have to.
Yes, in psychology it is very much taught that they're two very different things.
As for... Can I ask you a question?
Yes, sir.
You said you're in nursing?
Yes.
You're studying pre-nursing.
Now this matters, right, because, for example, if someone fills out on a government form, right now, they'll fill out their sex and say they're a biological male, but they fill out female.
Or when they're admitted to the hospital, right, often it's a biological term, but if they identify that way, they will often fill out, or legally they can fill out, how they identify.
Yes.
Very different metrics, right?
As a nurse, as a doctor, you need to know what you're dealing with.
Absolutely, and yes, like you said, on documents now, you can legally do the gender that you identify with, which amazing, great step forward for that.
But those people do have to make sure that they're like, hey, biologically, this is what I was assigned to at birth, and you treat them using those metrics.
However, that doesn't mean that you don't treat them with respect or treat them In some instances, it's illegal to ask the follow-up question, right?
It's discrimination.
In other words, if someone comes in who's biologically a male but identifies as female, if you follow up and say, well, were you born a male?
You're actually not allowed to ask that question, depending where you are.
In certain countries, that's actually considered discrimination, because they identify.
Well, even in certain areas, there have been lawsuits in the United States that are right now going up to the Supreme Court, and I think that matters.
For example, we now hear men can get pregnant.
You know as a nursing student, it's not true.
Men cannot get pregnant.
Again, it's very different, because if you view men only from a biological standpoint and not just how they identify, then sure, biologically males cannot be, but if you identify as a male, but you have female reproductive organs, then yes, you can get pregnant.
They go into my hospital?
Let's say you're a nurse, they go into your hospital, right?
Yes.
And they identify as a woman even though they're a man.
And they take a pregnancy test.
If a woman tests positive, that could mean she's pregnant.
If a man tests positive, it largely means he has testicular cancer.
Yes.
Right?
But they don't tell you that they were born a male or a female.
This is something that we are facing in our medical establishments right now That's why Johns Hopkins said we won't perform the sexual reassignment surgery He just saw this from the NHS in the UK that they have a problem with it They've removed language from their website because they're finding that there are serious health consequences that come along with this and I would say I understand I think I think I understand where you're coming from.
I think you're an empathetic person.
And I would say this.
I am coming from a place of empathy.
I don't hate anyone who's transgender.
I do see an astronomical suicide rate, both pre- and post-op.
Oh, absolutely.
And I see that as an issue that is not solved through transition.
However, I don't think... Again, I don't think that is necessarily a... It is a transgender issue because...
Transgender youth are four times more likely to commit suicide than cisgender youth.
And that's a very big problem.
Hey guys, sorry, do you want me to... She has hearing aids.
She has hearing aids and it kind of sets them off.
Could you just...
No, it's fine.
I don't mind.
It's just I am all over the place.
Okay, that's fine.
Is it okay that I ask you that?
I'm sorry, I have a relative over here and I know it can just be painful.
I'm sorry.
No, it's fine.
I don't mind.
It's just I am all over the place.
No, I understand.
So, as a, um, okay.
That's... Okay.
Yeah, sorry.
I just wasn't expecting to be experiencing that today.
That's because you're an adult.
Yeah, I was not expecting to be like, oh, she wears hearing aids.
I didn't know that we were still doing that in the 21st century, but it's okay.
Well, it's only because you said it was hurting you with the hearing aids.
I'm sorry you're upset that I... No, no, no.
I don't mean you.
I just mean, like, other people being like, oh, well, she wears hearing aids.
I'm just like, I do.
No, I was just asking to stop yelling.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I'm just listening to what they're saying.
Oh, you can hear them?
Is that one of those where you can hear further away but up close is distorted?
I can make it higher.
So like, your voice is a little bit lower and I have a hard time understanding lower
voices.
Oh, okay.
So, yes sir.
I can make it higher.
When I get very worked up it goes up high like this if it helps.
But I try and keep it calm.
Yes, I completely understand.
I think this should just be a very calm conversation.
Yes, historically transgender youth, especially in sentences performed by things such as the
Trevor Project, it seemed that transgender youth are four times more likely to commit
suicide than their cisgender counterparts.
And that goes even higher with people of color, especially Native American slash indigenous people.
And while that is there, I don't think that is a They're committing suicide because I may be a hundred percent Misinterpreting what you were saying how how you meant that whenever you said it But it came off as though you meant that in a way of like they're committing suicide because they're transitioning Yeah, well the sense of like they're almost being forced to transition
No, no.
Let me clarify what I meant.
Because I've sat down with a lot of people today, and the argument is consistently, well, it's because of the mistreatment.
And actually, the studies that I've seen are much higher than even four times.
Four times is bad enough, right?
It's tragic.
But actually, there have been studies, Swedish studies, that show it's 19 times, 18 to 19 times more likely.
But the number is the same both pre- and post-op.
And here's my issue.
And I tried to discuss this earlier.
American slaves, I think we would both agree, were mistreated, right?
Yes.
Well, they didn't have the same attempted suicide rate.
Jews in the Holocaust didn't have a four-time suicide rate, not even close.
Americans pre-civil rights, what I'm saying is people who have been discriminated against and truly, I think we would both agree, abused and mistreated, even if you go to gays, for example, in the United States in the 80s during the HIV epidemic, right, where they were very stigmatized.
They didn't have anywhere near this attempted suicide rate, and it exists both pre and post-op.
And the reason that I bring it up is because I think that you're, I mean, I think you're a kind person, I think you're obviously a respectful person, but limited time I've had with you.
I think it's misframed, for example, where people think if I say the solution is not transitioning or changing the entire societal structure to limitless genders, it's not because my heart doesn't break for these people, it's because Okay.
That's a very interesting viewpoint to have.
Again, I don't necessarily agree with it.
transitioning doesn't make it any better, it may make it worse.
Okay.
That's a very interesting viewpoint to have.
Again, I don't necessarily agree with it.
And I say this as a, because I am, I'm a queer person and I grew up in Bible Belt, Texas.
I grew up in South Texas.
I grew up with very conservative family members, very religious people.
And so I've experienced a lot of mistreatment.
And so I completely understand.
I can see that aspect of it because I have that viewpoint.
Whereas people perhaps like you may not, and that was very polarizing, I apologize for that.
No, no, no, I understand, and actually... But people from your viewpoint perhaps may not be able to see it, but I do know a lot of queer people do have a lot more of those issues.
Not necessarily, but it was because how they were treated.
Which is why, again, I don't necessarily agree that it is because it is of transitioning Well, what I'm saying is, for example, and I would like to go back to the term queer, where you can probably educate me, because it means different things to different people, and honestly, I feel sometimes that I don't get a handle on it.
Oh, absolutely.
Because I've had two queer people sit down and they both argued about what it meant, and I'm like, I'm just going to step out of this one.
But I will say this, you know, I was raised, I am a Christian, more conservative, but I was raised in socialist Quebec.
in public schools, where...
You're Canadian?
I was a dual citizen, but I was raised from 3 to 18 in Canada.
And I will tell you this, we actually have something called the Ligue des Langues,
meaning the Language Police, where they would actually enforce...
I was forced, for example, to go to all French schools until the third grade, where they thought I was learning
disabled.
And I speak French, but it's hard for me to learn math and, you know, history in French.
Oh, yeah.
I have suffered from clinical depression in my life, to a very severe degree.
So I can relate to it and I have again because I was very much a fish out of water.
I can relate to it in a way that might surprise people, even though I'm a white male.
I was an English-speaking, half-American, conservative male in a socialist, liberal province that forced me into French schools.
And I think that rather than someone saying it was because of the mistreatment, but examining, finally, my issues that I could control, where I did suffer from depression and ADHD, that it helped me a lot.
I did have people who enabled it at certain periods of time, rather than getting to the root cause.
What I'm saying is, when you look at the mistreatment of groups throughout history, they still don't have anywhere near the attempted suicide rate of transgenders, including queer women, in the Bible Belt.
It's still not 4 times or 18 times, so there must be another variable there, and if we shut down the dialogue, we may never actually examine what that variable is.
Mm-hmm.
Like I said, again, I don't 100% agree with that, especially because I'm viewing it from a youth standpoint of younger, of, say, people my generation, because I know for a fact that our generation probably has the most mental health issues that this country has ever seen, and it's because of circumstances that have happened as we have grown up.
Let me ask you this, would you say, are you Generation Z?
Yes.
Okay.
Would you say, and I don't want to mischaracterize this, statistically I would say this is true, but would you say that Generation Z is probably or arguably the most open-minded generation as it relates to these gender issues?
Absolutely.
Okay.
So when you combine that with the fact that your generation still has more mental health issues than all that have come before it, How do you juxtapose that and say it's because of mistreatment?
It's the most tolerant generation of all time, and they have more mental health issues than, for example, men coming back from World War II.
I think that's actually a great question.
Good job for that.
It's not a gotcha.
I'm genuinely curious.
I know, which is why I think it's an absolutely great conversation.
So, the reason I believe that Gen Z does have the most mental health issues is you have to realize that we start, what, the very first year is 1998.
So that means that what you have 1999, 2000, 2001, the very first people were in this generation were three years into their lives was 9-11, which was arguably the worst terrorist attack that has happened in the United States and on American soil.
Many Gen Z, they don't even remember it.
I feel really old when I talk about it.
They're like, I don't remember.
I'm like, oh boy.
I was born in 2003, so I wasn't even there for that.
I wasn't even a concept at that point.
Yeah, you were prenatal.
Yeah, absolutely.
But you do have to realize that the world, especially in America, changed very drastically after 2001.
It changed very drastically after, there's very much a, and this is taught in history classes, there's very much a difference between Pre 9-11 and very much a difference between post 9-11 and post 9-11 is seen as its own part of history because a lot of things have changed nowadays kids in my generation aren't allowed to go outside because they're too worried about safety whereas
People may ask how old you are, is that right?
No, 35.
35?
So I'm kind of middle, young, millennial.
Yes, millennial.
My parents growing up were just allowed to go outside and their parents didn't care where they were, whereas my parents were like, no, you're a girl, you can't go outside by yourself, even if it is in suburbia.
We have to deal with a lot of Because the world is very much changing, and in a lot of places it's changed for the worse.
And especially since we have a lot of media that typically just pummels you with all these bad things that are happening in the world, that very much changes a generation.
And if you are constantly seeing that, and you are constantly exposed to life-changing things, dead bodies, wars, terrorist attacks, It very much changes your perception on life.
And it's very easy for people in my generation to feel hopeless because of that, not because we're open-minded.
I believe that our generation is so open-minded because we see all the bad things happening in the world.
Because we're like, oh, we can at least be compassionate for one another.
That's the very least we can do.
In order to make ourselves happy.
I will say this.
I've changed my mind on issues in the past.
I don't think you've changed my mind on this issue, but what you have done is present a compelling argument that I think should be included.
I've discussed this in the past, that we certainly do have... Let me put it this way.
I don't think that this Generation Z has it harder than 16-year-olds on the beaches of Normandy.
No, of course!
I understand why you believe that.
But I believe they had a sense of purpose, right?
That they were fighting an evil Nazi regime, whereas I do think Your point is well taken.
When you combine this constant flow of information, and yes, negativity, with what I do think is, considering this kind of, like you said, post-911, post-war, in the global sense, generation, a lack of purpose, that It's a chronic stressor rather than an acute one.
Yes.
And I can see how that can be damaging.
You have to remember that a lot of those boys that were sent off in the war also, a lot of them typically lied on their things to go off to war because that was something they needed for their families and stuff like that.
Some of them wanted to go to war.
And they felt a sense of purpose.
They wanted to serve their country.
At what cost, but they ended up doing that, yes.
So, yes, it's very much a chronic stressor of constant things.
Like, you have to, like... We have, now, we have Ukraine and Russia.
And we're seeing that all over.
We've lived through that.
We've all lived through a global pandemic, but I was in high school whenever that happened, and I was supposed to be graduating, and we had to wear masks, we had to social distance from each other, and it was very hard to have that social thing as it was for everyone in the world.
We've had that.
We've had all sorts of things that have happened within our lifetime that are these big global events, which is why I don't think it's... I don't think being open-minded is inhibiting us at all.
No, and I wasn't saying... because you're two kind of separate issues.
I think we both agree there are more mental health issues with this generation than previous generations.
But what I am saying is that this generation, for example the transgender suicide statistics, don't really change generationally.
So you would think that transgenders from, let's say, millennials, from Gen X,
you would think that the rates would be higher there.
They're every bit as high with Gen Z.
So I'm saying separate from the suicide and mental health issues at large,
the treatment of them is certainly what people would consider more tolerant with Gen Z,
but the metrics haven't improved.
And so I would say, well, OK, maybe we need to look to another variable.
There is no demographic that has that same attempted suicide rate.
There's only one.
It's paranoid schizophrenics.
It's the only place that has a 40, over 40% attempted suicide rate, which is approximate with transgender individuals.
Which brings me kind of to another point.
I really do think it's a thoughtful point that you made and I actually would like to go do more research and actually look at the before and after 9-11 mental health issues.
I think it's an interesting study.
But my question would now bring to you, if we say...
First off, can I ask you a question?
How many genders are there?
If I say there are two.
So, I've actually watched some of your stuff and I know you don't like this answer.
I know you don't.
I'm so sorry that you don't like this answer.
I appreciate that you can probably understand why.
Yes.
Like I said, I have people in my life that very much are like, there are only two genders and I'm just like, eh.
I do believe that it is an infinite spectrum.
I do believe that you can identify with what you are.
And so if you identify as someone that's non-binary, I believe that you should be allowed to do that.
And I believe that you should be allowed to do that, and people should be respectful about it.
I do think that on the number of genders, I don't think there is a limited number.
I think you can identify how you want to identify.
Typically, people tend to identify as a man, woman, non-binary.
But even then, I don't like Because non-binary is an umbrella term.
Right.
Where it, of course, covers all of these nuanced gender identities.
But some people don't like the term non-binary.
But then where do you draw a line?
Where do you draw a line?
For example, and I'm taking an extreme example to make a point here.
I'm not saying this is the norm.
Yeah.
But if someone identifies as a feline.
As a feline.
This happens a lot.
A more common issue is people identify as amputees.
This is an issue where medical professionals are having people come in asking them to remove a limb.
If you say it's infinite, well then there is no... But what's the number on that happening?
Do you happen to know?
I would say if it's a hundred, if it's a thousand, if it's any, it shouldn't be a medical quandary as a nurse.
You know what I mean?
It shouldn't be an ethical quandary, but now it is.
And what I would say is, look, we've had two genders, and we understand, I think you seem intelligent enough to know that I acknowledge the 0.01% who are intersex, and these are anomalies.
It's not the same as the transgender issue.
I do believe, um, you said 0.01?
It's .01 as far as intersex.
I believe that that was from a study in 2002, and I believe the number now is about 1.7%, which is about the same number of redheads in the world, so that's like 70... I know that study that they brought up, but then actually we had a, what's his name, a journalist, Scaramucci, I can't remember his name, when I was at UTD, try and bring that up, and in that very study, it actually said the number is closer to .01.
So even in that study, they had misread the statistics.
It's certainly not over 1%, but we can disagree.
It's still very, very low.
I would maintain it's not only a 2002 study.
There have been studies reiterated since then.
But even then, what I would say is this.
Let's say it's 1% for the sake of argument.
In nursing school, for example, it's certainly a higher percentage of people who are born without a limb than people who are intersex.
But you're still taught, in biology class, there are exceptions.
Human beings generally have two arms, two legs.
For example, you use hearing aids, right?
But in biology, I'm sure, in nursing school, they probably teach you basics about the ear drums, right?
Basics about the ear canal, and say, and there are exceptions to these rules, but this is generally the human anatomy.
We are now asking people to restructure how we teach biology based on a very small percentage, and if we say, well, no, two genders is wrong, if you tear down that, what I would say is a fundamental structure in society, I think you need to replace it with something equally concrete, not, it could change at any time.
You say that we're teaching people that there's more than there actually is.
Biologically, we are not.
We're not being taught that.
As far as sex?
Yes, as far as sex, we're not being taught.
Sure, it is mentioned that there are intersex people, and I don't think that we should look over those people because they have identities.
No, I don't think we should.
Of course.
And they present their own set of medical things that you have to look into because nowadays you hear a lot of stories about intersex people who No, I don't overlook, but I'm saying how we teach it.
How we teach it is that we have male and female, like you said.
They teach two, and they teach there are some exceptions.
But they don't teach that there are limitless sexes.
No, because sex and gender again are two things and we are taught that they are two separate entities.
But that's not where we are though, right? Because when you have people, again, this would be, I would agree with you,
at least the premise.
If, for example, consistently male and female were used to describe sex and man and woman were used to describe gender.
But they're not.
They're not even in a legal sense, when you're talking about proper identification.
They're not when you talk about this administration referring to Rachel Levine as a female.
They're not even used that way when you say male to female transgender, right?
They're talking about... We both agree you can't change your biological sex, but it's MTF.
FTM.
Yeah!
to female, not MTW, not man to woman, there's no consistency.
And the issue is when you combine that with the compulsion of language, for example, in
Canada or in certain areas, speech laws.
If we say there are limitless genders, then there are limitless pronouns.
Yeah.
Which I, yeah, I would just, sorry.
No, you're okay.
And I'm actually learning Spanish because I'm biracial.
My mom is white, my dad is Mexican.
And so I'm currently in the process of learning Spanish, which is also a romance language.
Gendered nouns, right?
Masculine and feminine.
Yes, very gendered.
We're one of the few languages that don't have it, actually, in English.
It's very common.
And again, very much like you said, there is an institution that oversees the use of
the Spanish language and what is correct and what is incorrect.
And this institution is very much like gender-neutral.
gender neutral pronouns aren't to be used.
But people within those communities have very much reclaimed that right,
especially those in Latin America or people you see here in the United States,
which is why you have terms such as Latinx or you have different terms.
So that is slowly beginning to change, again, with the times of people having gender identity.
It's not as far as Latinx because the vast majority of people,
both in South America, Latin America, and Hispanic Americans,
it's less than 2% who like the term Latinx and it's more than 50% who hate it.
Across all generations.
I know, I know.
I don't think that's correct at all.
Statistically, it is, though.
Again, I think it has to do with generations.
I know a lot of young people who very much prefer that term over older people.
But then again, those older people... In the United States, not in Latin America.
The older people that I know, again, are the same kind of people that would agree with that they're only...
I'm not talking about older people, I'm talking about younger people in Latin America or even younger people in Mexico.
They do not like... It's exclusively, respectfully, largely white Americans, to use that term.
Not even young Hispanics.
But let me ask you this, and I would like to go back to the sort of the queer topic, but... I didn't use that term, the queer topic, but the term and how it identifies, because it does tie into this.
I have asked this question here today, and understand this is not a gotcha, it is a serious concern for someone like me as a father.
The idea now, and when I brought this up in 2018, people said that's absurd, you're trying to be incendiary.
The idea of transitioning, of puberty blockers for children.
You're a nurse as well, you're going to be a nurse, apologies.
Can we find common ground here?
I've spoken with some people today.
One person who is pro-LGBT agreed with me.
One person did not believe that children should be allowed to make those decisions to transition.
If we can't find common ground that children are in no position to make permanent decisions regarding their biological makeup and blocking puberty or undergoing gender reassignment surgery, as civil as this discourse has been, I don't think there's any hope to find common ground.
Where do you line up on children transition?
I personally, just because I think that's completely different from what is being advertised right here.
Well, no, let me explain to you why it's not.
I think it's a very nuanced topic.
I believe that it should be up to the child and the parents, up to doctors, up to... I don't think it should be made illegal because that just... there are very... How do I phrase this?
Sorry, I'm trying to get my... I will say, I completely believe it should be illegal for the same reason that 10-year-olds can't consent to sex.
Okay.
If a child can't consent to sex, why can they consent to a sexual reassignment surgery that will affect their sex life forever?
Okay.
I don't know how, I don't know why we would leave that decision to a child.
Children are not capable, their brains are not developed and capable of making a permanent
life-altering decision like that and understanding the consequences.
Could we not agree at waiting until they're 18 to make that decision rather than rushing
them along as children?
I do think that, so again, you use puberty blockers, which is typically used for children,
yes.
I'm not sure that the rates of gender reassignment surgery in trans children is very high, for the fact that most doctors are not going to want to do that, as it is seen that most doctors aren't wanting to do gender reassignment surgeries, as you mentioned earlier with John Hopkins saying, I don't know about that.
So that rate is not that high.
Well, it's not hot yet, right?
That's the reverse Nirvana thought.
Well, since it hasn't happened yet, but if we open it up, for example, there are lawsuits against Johns Hopkins right now, right?
Just because we haven't done it yet, it's because there have been archaic fossils like me who say, well, we can't allow children to transition.
If we allow it, you're going to have a much, much higher number, right?
We do have to make a decision.
Well, I mean, if you use it, if you... That argument is kind of...
Um, of, if we don't let people do, if we let people do this, the numbers are going to get higher.
Typically, in a lot of things, that's not how it ends up seeing.
It absolutely does.
With children, it does.
Let me give you, and this is something that is, and this is something that is important, again.
With children, for example, children who identify as transgender, if you do nothing, if you do nothing, if you don't intervene, the lowest number you will find from a larger study is about 85%.
There are numbers as high as 97% of them grow out of it completely.
They were a tomboy, some of them were gay, right?
They weren't transgender.
The moment you intervene and you administer puberty blockers or hormone replacement therapy, the number goes down to zero.
And by the way, once that number goes down to zero, that means that 100% of those children are now in the 42% attempted suicide demographic.
But who's to say that the children that don't get help before aren't also going to be in that same geographic?
Because they grow out of it.
Statistically, they grow out of it, and it was a phase.
It was a phase for most of these kids.
It's 85 to 97 percent where they grow out of it, just like kids grow out of a lot of things, right?
I don't think that's... I don't necessarily agree with that, because, especially in, again, may I ask, are you in the LGBTQ community?
No, I'm not LGBT, but I'm talking about the fact that most of these children, some of them do say, you know what, it turns out, I have a friend actually on the show, said, I thought I was trans, turns out I was just a gay man.
So some of those 90 something percent end up being gay or lesbian.
But they all grow out of claiming to be transgender.
The vast majority.
Only when you intervene and you change the neurochemistry, which we know if you administer puberty blockers or estrogen or testosterone, right?
That changes the way the brain develops.
Now you've actually changed their course.
They grow out of it and no longer identify as trans if there's no intervention when they are children.
But who's to say that they can't detransition?
Because, again, that argument is brought up a lot.
It's actually, they've discovered that it's kind of being blown up, kind of out of proportion, the number of people.
The media very much blows up the number of people that are detransitioning whenever it's not as big as many people think.
They're dismissed and they're marginalized.
But, if that number, if that's so significant, and the argument of people transitioning is like, oh, what if they want to de-transition?
Why can't you say the same thing for these children?
Again, gender reassignment surgery... Because it's the Hippocratic Oath, first do no harm, and puberty blockers, and intervention, hormonally on a child.
Absolutely does more harm than doing nothing.
We would have to agree on that.
Maybe the harm, some people would argue the harm is minimal, but no one is arguing that puberty blockers do not come with the risk of sterility, a high risk when compared to other drugs.
No one is arguing that puberty blockers often stunt growth permanently.
Of course we acknowledge that.
No one is arguing that administering testosterone to a teenage girl will change her body, her bone mineral density, which to an unnatural degree, no one is arguing that or that estrogen for a young boy will result in developmental abnormalities in their
cerebral cortex, their frontal lobe.
No one is arguing that those aren't.
So in other words, medical intervention when they are a child absolutely does more harm
than waiting until they're an adult.
I don't think that's up for debate as to what degree of harm, but it does more harm than
doing nothing would be my position.
See, and again, I'm, I guess I'm looking at this at a very different viewpoint because
I'm wanting to be a nursing student.
And, um, yeah.
You were fundamentally taught that not only is the physical body something that you treat, Mental the mind is also something those are two very interconnected things in order for a person to be healthy Not only do they have to have a healthy body, but they also have to have a healthy mind So with that I'm looking at it at the sense of if these children Again, because me and you look at that suicide rate very differently, which is where I think we're coming at kind of like this
I think we both have concern, though, which I appreciate.
Just different solutions.
Different forms of concern, I think.
Because, again, I think that I'm not 100% sure that children should have gender reassignment surgery just because it's a very invasive procedure.
I don't believe that they should be able to have that until they're 18.
That's just my opinion.
If this child is deemed medically necessary to have it for, say, their mental health, then because gender dysphoria is a very awful thing.
But it doesn't improve their mental health.
It doesn't.
That's the point.
The problem is, in other words, if you were to be able to say, If we intervene, this is medically necessary for their mental health, but the attempted suicide rate stays the same, irrefutably.
It does not improve post-op.
You've now performed, by what you've described, and I agree with you, a very medically invasive, whether it's surgery or puberty blockers, and you've not improved the mental health.
As a matter of fact, you could make it worse once that child grows up and realizes, oh my god, I would have grown out of it, but they never were given the chance to.
I think... And again, you can medically detransition.
Not everybody can with puberty blockers.
It's not true.
Puberty blockers, they come with some ramifications that can be permanent for many people.
Not everyone, but a significant percentage.
I do know this because I've seen many videos and case studies of this
detransitioning where they do have some of those things and yes there are
there's some things that you can't change but which is why I say if you're
so worried about them growing out of it don't let them surgically transition
until they're 18 again but that I think should be up to the discretion
Some of them do not revert back to a normal puberty phase.
A good portion of them.
The idea that, in other words, we say, well, if you use puberty blockers, it's reversible.
Well, it's not always reversible.
You know what is reversible?
Going through puberty and when you're an adult capable of making decisions, deciding to transition.
Yeah, like I said, I do think we're hitting our wall, which is... but that's completely okay.
I think we have more common ground than maybe... I understand where you're coming from, and I really do appreciate how respectful you've been.
I'm sorry that these hooligans have been yelling.
Let me ask you, you said queer.
Yes, sir.
So, to a silly, cis, straight, white male like myself, What is that?
When you say queer, what do you mean?
Some people mean it in different ways.
Yes, sir.
So, you don't mind me calling you sir, right?
No, you can call me whatever you want.
Okay, because I know some people... I grew up very much where manners aren't very much a thing and I know some other places it's like if you're called sir, like you're calling them old, that's rude.
No, no, you can call me whatever you want.
You've been very respectful and I really have enjoyed our conversation.
Historically, queer has been used to mean the word strange, odd.
Okay, queer. I was like, I was like, I'm so sorry.
Um, so yes, uh, historically queer has been used to mean the word strange, odd.
That's very much a thing.
Um, I still use it when watching, it used to be a term like on boxing, they say,
the guy gets, you know, like clipped, they would say, oh, let's put him on queer street.
And that just means that he's, he's out of it.
So it wasn't even a sexual term, it was just like queer street meant you're close to getting knocked out.
But, uh, queer ended up being used as a derogatory term towards LGBTQ plus people, which is, because, of course, words, of course, have their trajectory in history, their usage.
It happens a lot with a bunch of different terms.
Um, but now, um, the, a lot of LGBTQ plus people, that's what the Q is in LGBTQ, right?
It's queer.
Well, not always.
Some people say it's questioning.
Some people do say it's questioning.
I see it as queer.
It's just very... But the Q is used... Queer is very much, especially in the community, is used as an umbrella term.
Just to encompass people that perhaps wouldn't want to identify as anything else, don't prefer other labels.
So you're not lesbian, does queer mean that you're, you're not bisexual, but you're not lesbian, does queer mean, what does queer mean then?
Because again, I would be like, okay, bisexual, lesbian, I understand.
I think, again, I think very much like the whole gender identity thing.
I think it's just kind of how you personally identify.
I use queer just because I don't feel as though anything else truly encompasses me as a person.
You can always tell me if they're too invasive.
Do you mean as far as your orientation, or your gender, or both?
Typically my orientation.
So are you trying both men and women?
Yes, I have.
So again, it would seem to me that that would fit under bisexual.
I don't feel 100% comfortable talking 100% about it, or especially just on camera.
So typically people that are bisexual experience, and again you probably are going to hear this and be like, I don't know.
Which is why I think it's wonderful to explain a little bit more.
I'm genuinely curious because I've had different people give me different definitions of queer.
Yes, so um, like I said, queer is very much used as an umbrella term for a lot of different people and I like that label a lot just because it's not ultra specific because again it's just an umbrella term and it's not like I'm picking and choosing at things just because I'm not a huge fan of labels because I realize that a lot of people Right.
put you in a box with labels.
Right.
If you identify sometimes as something, they just view you very much with stereotypes.
And I'm not a huge fan of that.
Okay.
And, um, but bisexual people are, uh, those that are attracted, uh, to, uh,
and I know you're gonna hear this and you're gonna be like,
That's so cute.
what do you mean?
Or more, typically bisexual people, the definition within the community and which is more widely accepted is those that are attracted to two or more genders.
Right.
I thought it just meant two, because bi would mean two.
Yeah, which is why I was like, you'll probably hear this and be like, what in the world?
Because it would make sense to me if bisexual means you're attracted to male, female, and queer means two or more.
That would make more sense.
But I have heard this where bisexual doesn't mean two.
I'm like, well, why have the bi?
Yeah, that is very hard for people to grasp, but it's very much two genders, or very much two or more genders.
Which is, again, that whole concept goes with our... there are only two genders, because especially underneath, like, things such as bisexual or even labels such as pansexual, which is not often talked about.
Yeah, I understand it.
Pansexual means that you can be queer in orientation and gender-fluid yourself as well.
Pansexual means that you are attracted to people regardless of gender.
That's how I've always heard it and I have people that identify as that and that's very much how they feel.
And how is that different from queer?
From queer, like I said, queer is very much an umbrella term.
So it encompasses... So pansexual could go under queer?
Yes.
Okay.
Very much so, yes.
Not typically.
Typically it is LGBTQIA+.
Sometimes they include a P even after the Q.
Not typically.
Typically it is LGBTQIA+.
So I've seen LGBTQAIP at a feminist film festival.
And I've seen even AAIP.
But I have quite commonly seen AIP.
I've never seen it with a P.
So P should go under Q?
I'm not saying it should go under Q.
It can.
It can if that person identifies with that.
But Q couldn't go under P?
I mean, again, it's whatever you want.
Like I said, Q can be used as an umbrella term, or it can be used as its own separate thing.
Yeah.
Well, look, here's the thing.
I'm not going to agree with the changing of the acronym.
As long as, unlike the Canadian government, you don't compel me to use that language.
Yeah.
Whatever you say you are, I'll say, okay, fine.
But I'm probably not going to keep adding LGBTQAIP or allow someone to say... Which is why typically I just say LGBTQ.
Okay.
It's very simple.
It seems like, but then at that point, then it just seems like a Q is the umbrella term.
Just say Q.
I mean...
Because LGBT could all fit under Q.
Well, I mean, again, people very much identify with those labels.
There were previous labels that I used that I stopped using because I didn't feel comfortable
because a lot of, especially with lesbian, the term lesbian, it has a historical history
behind it and I don't want to, not necessarily offend, but I just don't feel comfortable
No, that's very much a stereotype for lesbians.
Well, I mean, lesbians can come in all shapes and sizes, all forms.
And then I noticed a lot of women are like, well I'm a lesbian, but I'm not.
I have a lesbian I work with who's like, I'm a lesbian, but I'm not that kind of lesbian.
So she says, cue.
Even though she's not bisexual, she's a lesbian.
But she will say, I'm not a stereotypical lesbian.
Well, I mean, lesbians can come in all shapes and sizes, all forms.
You don't have to be...
But this lesbian is aggravated by it.
Okay, then...
And she drives a Subaru and she goes, by the way, it's a coincidence, I got a good deal.
It's not because I'm a lesbian.
And actually we have a lot of fun with it, where she goes, I get the stereotype.
And I think that all is good.
Look, like I said, I'm going to disagree with the acronym, the language, the fundamental changing of it.
We're going to disagree on many things.
But I have to tell you how much I've enjoyed the conversation.
What I just ask, hopefully, that people can do is when we leave this conversation, understand We come from different perspectives.
Absolutely.
But I think yours comes from empathy, and even if people might think mine is not, it comes from wanting different solutions and empathy.
Conservatives, there's this misinterpretation that if they disagree, it must be intolerant or hateful.
It's not.
It's just, it's rooted in not only a very different worldview, but I would argue, like, there is a lot of data to reflect We're going down a very dangerous path with like children transitioning and unfortunately you've seen here today people get shouted down and that's something we have to get past even if
Even if I was baby Hitler, which I'm not!
I'm just saying that, you know, we need to be able to have these conversations.
And I really appreciate you doing that.
You know what I think?
I think a big part of that is probably because, kind of like me, you know, I was raised as a conservative Christian in a very, very left, right, very left.
And not only that, I'm not Catholic.
I went to public schools which were all Catholic when I was being raised.
So I was forced to understand their perspective.
Oh, absolutely.
Which is why earlier you mentioned the conservatives are seen as intolerant.
in the Bible Belt, Christian conservatives, you've probably had to argue your position.
Oh, absolutely. Which is why earlier you mentioned the conservatives are seen as intolerant.
A majority of my life I've seen conservatives as...
Oh, there was a spider.
Oh, jeez.
Don't worry about it.
I'm very intolerant of spiders.
I don't like them.
It just fully crawled on me.
Oh, God!
It's fine.
It's okay.
No, it's not fine.
It's fine.
I'm going to kill it after.
You're going to find it.
Okay, I will.
But I grew up seeing conservatives as very intolerant and it was just because the conservative people that I had in my life were very intolerant in the sense of they're not open to conversation.
Yeah.
Which is why, um, today, whenever I see people walking by and just being like, oh, blah blah blah, I'm just like, you either, one, should ignore it, it's, if, ignore it, or, I, adding fuel to the fire isn't that great, it's...
It's just, there's no... If you can't have a conversation about it, nothing's gonna get done.
But you're a classical liberal in that sense, because even though we disagree, you can sit down, express your point of view, and some people on the left view that in and of itself as adding fuel to the fire.
Yeah.
And I would argue adding fuel to the fire is simply trying to eliminate voices from the conversation.
By the way, whether it's... That or just being completely polarizing and just being like, you suck.
Right, yeah.
Well, I don't think that's taking place here.
I'm sorry, your name again was?
Gabriela.
I'm horrible with names.
I'll never forget your face.
No, it's okay.
Gabriela, thank you so much.
I really do appreciate it.
This was wonderful.
Thank you.
I wish that all my conversations could be like this, but unfortunately they're not.
Yeah, and again, we don't 100% agree on everything, but it's still...
No, yeah, and I would defend your right to say anything you have to say to the death, regardless of how much I disagree with it.
So thank you, Gabrielle, and I know this has been a long time.
Do you have big Halloween plans?
I'm gonna go to my room.
My roommate left for the day.
I think I have to take care of her dog.
Don't watch Barbarian.
Barbarian?
My dad was talking about it.
He said it sucks.
It's f***ing gross.
Is it?
If you're gonna watch it, I don't want to spoil it for you.
I don't know.
It's really gross.
Like gory?
No.
Gross.
Like, okay.
This happens early in the film.
Okay, you can go ahead and tell me.
It'll be fine.
The worst thing is, so it's this woman who's in, she's like a victim of a guy who had locked up, had inbred in the basement, and had a bunch of children, and she's obsessed with locking people, and trying to make them her babies.
So she forcefully breastfeeds them, and she's inbred.
Picture the Hills Have Eyes.
And she has this stringy black hair, and I was eating ramen.
There's a stringy black boob hair.
I feel the need to warn everyone if they're going to see it.
It's really gross.
I love horror movies, so I've watched most of the Saws.
I can only sit through three before I'm like, I gotta get out of here.
It's not a bad movie, but I just warn you.
I just saw the trailer.
I had no idea what I was in for.
So I figured Halloween, if you're going up to your room, you might have that on the docket.
Just be warned, don't eat ramen.
I probably wasn't going to.
Watch a movie.
I might eat ramen.
I don't know.
Don't watch it while eating ramen.
Alright, thank you so much Gabrielle.
Thank you very much.
Of course.
I appreciate it.
You too.
Hey look at that, even Joe Louis is happier.
That's just because you stole a whole pie.
From the studio.
He did do that.
Look, Gabriella and I agree on pretty much nothing.
And we were able to have a productive civil conversation.
One of my favorite conversations ever.
Let me know which future installments you'd like to see in Change My Mind.
He's pushing me off my chair.
Okay, thank you.
Which future installments you would most like to see for Change My Mind?
Comment below.
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