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March 1, 2018 - Louder with Crowder
56:40
DEBATE: Feminist Asks Crowder to Check Privilege (Maria Del Russo Uncut) | Louder With Crowder
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I'm giving you the example that traditional patriarchal mindsets affect you too.
You should 100% get nine months off for if you decide to have a child.
And let me say this, while we're getting personal, you should 100% if you date a man who wants nine months off, leave him.
All right, so I'm very glad to have my next guest.
First off, anyone who's going to be tweeting her, texting her, messaging her, I always want you guys to be respectful.
We talk about this. Anyone who enters the arena, as it were, anyone who is willing to engage in the process of ideas with people across the aisle, I have a lot of respect for it, because it's really tough to get people on the show a lot of the time.
Coming increasingly so. Yes.
So she has been tweeting me a couple of times over the last week and a half or so over the male privilege is a myth, change my mind segment.
And you can follow her on Twitter at Maria underscore Del Russo.
Maria Del Russo, how are you?
I'm well. How are you?
I'm doing well, thank you.
I appreciate you being on the program.
Thank you for inviting me.
And not only that, but you have your headphones set up, decent look.
I do. I mean, your producer asked me to put these headphones in, so I have to give, you know, I have to give props where props are due.
I'll send her a check later. You don't have to do anything that Jared tells her to do.
You don't have to do anything. That is true.
That is true. Okay, so let's kind of get right into it.
I want to make sure that people kind of know our jumping off point, how we made contact.
And I want to quote you directly your tweets so that I don't take you out of context.
If I do at any point, please feel free to let me know.
So the initial tweets that I saw from you, this is from the...
Male privilege is a myth. Changed my mind segment we did.
Was that last Monday?
Maybe two weeks ago. I don't know. It was a while ago.
It's irrelevant. We don't need to get into this information.
But you tweeted me, the fact that you expect people to walk up to you and hand you an explanation because you asked for it instead of going online and researching it yourself is a pretty perfect example of male privilege.
There are a couple of tweets, but let's start with that.
I don't know that I necessarily agree with the premise or understand it, but let me hear it.
Well, I just want to apologize for that in advance because a lot of your followers did tweet me after the fact I didn't really know much about you or that this was a thing that existed beforehand.
I did not know that the change my mind segment was actually a thing.
So now I'm aware of that.
But before we jump into all of this, I'm hoping that we can kind of start it out just as kind of like to frame off our discussion to kind of define what privilege is, because I think that that's where a lot of this tension comes from, right?
So there are two definitions that I want to share with you.
So the first one is from like good old Webster's dictionary and privilege as defined by that is a special right advantage or immunity granted or available to only a particular group or person.
If you talk about privilege in sociology that examines the social, economic, and political advantages given to a group on the basis of sex, race, finances, All that type of thing.
Okay, pause really quickly just so I can make sure that I'm understanding.
And so we're talking about systemic privilege, systemic discrimination versus sociological cultural.
And what you were tweeting me were examples, I guess you would probably argue sociological examples of male privilege.
Well, they're societal examples of male privilege, because sociology is kind of the study of how privilege influences these different systems.
So, society is a system, as is economics is a system, as is politics is a system.
So, the examples that I were sending you were examples of social privileges that men have.
Okay. But when we talk about privilege from the top down- Privileges that, me specifically, Well, I guess this would apply to all males, because this is how we made contact.
So I do want to, I appreciate your apology on the change my mind thing.
That's a segment we've been doing for a while.
And I know you mentioned that you got some threats from people and some terrible comments, which, listen, I mean, I won't apologize for them because I didn't make them, but I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
Yeah, thank you. That's never my intention, ever.
And I know you asked me, you know, as a male, if I'd gotten similar threats from followers, if I'd been asked that I would be raped for expressing it.
I'm sure now that you've done a little more research on who I am, that you're probably aware this is not a privilege I enjoy.
Yeah, yes, 100%.
And again, I get all of that now.
But the reason why I wanted to define privilege to you is that a lot of people consider privilege, when we talk about male privilege, they think of it more as like an adjective, when in reality it's actually a noun.
So it's something like...
Privilege isn't something that you necessarily, or men in general, are necessarily, you know...
Exercising over someone else.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
I know that one of the jokes you like to make is, there's no secret patriarchy meeting coming together and being like, here's how we're going to oppress women.
Like, sure, men's rights groups exist in this country, and they may feel that way, but on the whole, this is not what this is, right?
Right. What we're talking about when we talk about male privilege is the fact that historically men have been in positions of power and because they have been in these positions of power they tend to frame the way Can I come in here real quick?
Sure, yeah. I appreciate it.
I appreciate it. I want to make sure you have the full...
We have plenty of time, so there's no rush here.
Because you've just discussed men in power, and since they've been in power, the structures that provide privileges to them.
So that would seem an example of systemic.
So let's start with that and then get to societal.
Can you give me any examples, I guess, right now, 2018 of privileges, rights afforded systemically to males, not afforded to females.
So, okay, so this is, again, why I have a problem with the term privilege.
I actually prefer the term advantage over privilege, because, again, I think that people get really caught up in the idea of privilege.
Okay, okay, well, let's say advantage, privilege, but you just mentioned men in power, right?
So let's just, let's go with this.
White men in power in this country for a long time, mostly men in power right now in 2018.
There are a lot of female politicians, a lot of minorities, but let's, so let's go with that.
What rights...
Since you brought up people in power, these people in power, right, they've created the structures that be.
Right now, the structures that be exist in 2018.
Any rights or advantages, privileges afforded to men not officially afforded to women in 2018?
Well, what we are arguing here is that you guys are benefiting from a system where you guys were initially the only people in power, right?
You guys have like a centuries-long head start on us.
And because of that, these things don't change immediately.
So sure, women are equal to men.
In that we can vote, in that women are just as able to ascend to CEO positions and all this type of thing.
All of that is available to us.
But since men have been in power for longer than women have had the opportunity to be in power, you guys have a little bit of a head start on us.
And we all know that it's very difficult.
To change people's minds about something, right?
Sure. Okay. Before we move on, I just want to make sure that we would both agree on the premise, no rights not afforded.
Sure. On paper, there are no rights that a man has over...
Okay. I just wanted to clarify because you mentioned government systems of power, and so people will hear that and right away...
And I do feel that a lot of the left do that kind of...
I'm not saying you're doing that, but as a bait and switch, like, well, the systems of power that be...
And so people go, oh, wait, hold on a second.
What rights out there are unequally distributed?
What rights are not afforded?
So we both agree, okay, there are no rights afforded to men, not to women.
Okay. So everything is societal.
Everything we're talking about today then is societal.
Sure, yes. Okay. But so this is why I like to bring up, like, men in power, men in positions of power.
Another term that we get tripped up on a lot is the term patriarchy, right?
I know that the right hates that term, patriarchy.
And I think that it's because a lot of times...
It's just funny. Yeah, it's funny.
But it's literally defined as a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
You can agree that that is the way things have been...
For most of history, right?
You and I can agree on that?
Well, no, not if we're talking about societally, no.
No, I'm talking politically, a system of society or government.
So let's talk government. Right.
So now we're going back to systemic.
So systemically, yes, for example, women didn't have the right to vote until men passed laws that they could.
Sure. I want to make sure we compartmentalize those because we've now moved on to societally.
Because even if you go back then, you look at the temperance movement, you look at the influence that women had in politics, and you look at prohibition, they had every bit as much of influence and power.
They just weren't necessarily in official positions of government.
So now we're kind of blurring those systemic and societal...
But see, those lines, those are not hard-defined lines, because one hand washes the other when it comes to this type of thing.
When it comes to privilege, it's all kind of interconnected, because patriarchy is also defined as a system of society in which the father or eldest male is head of the family, and you could trace dissent through the male line, right?
So it's all, whether it's society, whether it's government, men are in charge.
So today, again, we're going into the systems of power and men who are in power today, societally.
Privilege advantages. We moved on from rights.
Societally, how do you make the argument?
You know, like I said, this is a change my mind effectively right now.
The idea that we're taught in schools by, you know, gender studies professors, by far-left progressive feminists, this idea of privilege.
It's the word they use. You know, I know everyone has different words, but it's a word that's used when I was in college when we had to read Naomi Wolf.
Examples of that today, societally, I would love to see some concrete examples to see if we would agree or disagree.
Yeah, I mean, and I'm gonna keep pushing on this, it's like the fact that men have been the ones empowered, they are the ones who are able to dictate what is truly like, I'm sorry, I'm losing my train of thought right now because I understand what you're saying, but what I'm trying to explain to you is that These power positions influence our society today because...
Well, certainly they do.
I agree. Of course, listen, your past dictates a part of your present.
But, you know, listen, again, we're going back to people in positions of power.
They made men eligible for the draft and not women, right?
They made men have mandatory bucket duty and not women.
They made men an actual whipping post if they abused their wives and not women.
So, you know, no one's perfect, but we've gotten better.
And if we talk about...
Patriarchy, you will hear a lot of feminists say that these patriarchal systems are also negative for men as well.
We're not just saying we need to dismantle the patriarchy just because it's bad for women.
It's bad for men, too, for all of the reasons that you just talked about.
Since you guys have had the benefit of being in power for centuries, that's the norm.
You and I know that it is very, very difficult to change the idea of what is normal.
Your producer and I were joking before I came on about the fact that I have to have two different headphones, one for my computer and one for my iPhone, because when Apple changed their iPhone jack and got rid of it, people went nuts.
And that's a small change, right?
Because that's the norm. That's what you're used to.
So if you are used to seeing men in power, and if men are used to being in power, it's hard to kind of change that dynamic.
And because of that, like...
You just assume that men will be in power.
It's an assumption. It's a systemic assumption.
It's something that people just assume is the norm.
That is the norm. Someone once asked Ruth Bader Ginsburg, what is the What would make you happy?
Like, how many women on the Supreme Court would make you happy?
And she said all of them, because there have been all men on the Supreme Court, so why shouldn't there be all women?
Ah, see, that's where we differ.
And that's where I think, I think where we can come to our disagreement, maybe later on we'll continue along this path, is the solution.
See, I think that's a horrible answer.
I mean, I'm sure you can imagine why I would think that's the worst answer possible.
Sure, and I happen to agree with you, but the fact that all men is normal and all female is abnormal is the crux of what I'm talking about.
No, but that's not why. That's not why I think it's bad.
I think it's bad because I am all about, of course we support on this program, equal opportunity.
Ginsburg is talking about there's equal outcome.
I couldn't care less.
It's not because there's normal or abnormal, whether it's Clarence Thomas or Ginsburg.
I couldn't care less. I care about the most qualified person for the job.
I care about the constitutional scholar who will protect our rights.
I couldn't care less if they have a penis or a vagina.
And I think that's a big reason why young women, and particularly young men, the dangers
that we're seeing now, reject this idea of feminism, reject this idea of privilege and
advantages because they see a lot of disadvantages that men experience, not as a result of patriarchy,
but as a result of feminism, because of that mindset that it's time to ensure equal outcomes.
Saying all women on the Supreme Court, listen, if you're a man today, if you're a 22-year-old
male, you go, hold on a second, everyone here has equal rights.
And I don't want the Supreme Court to become an affirmative action land.
Thank you.
But, and I completely agree with you, it should not be an affirmative action, Blandon.
The people who argue for against male privilege are not saying that you should give positions to women simply because they're women.
We just all want to be treated equally, and we're not really at this point.
But if you do that, you can't insure an all-female Supreme Court.
So you understand the subtext there.
You can't. I do.
100%. 100%.
I cannot guarantee an all-female Supreme Court.
But the reason why I brought that up to begin with was to underline my argument that all male all the time is the norm.
It's the norm. That's 100% the norm.
It's been the norm for historically. I would not agree.
I would not agree that all male, all now, 100% is the norm.
You had females in the Republican primary and the Democratic national candidate was a female.
I don't agree that it's 100% the norm.
I don't agree. I believe that it's actually probably disproportionately not the norm.
If you look at the amount of women who go into certain fields, and then you look at how many of them make it to the top, whether it's stand-up comedy or the field of sciences, I don't agree that in 2018 it's the norm to see 100% men.
I think it's the norm now to try and manipulate the outcomes that there are more women.
I'm not saying that it is the norm.
I'm saying that it's the assumption that that's what you're going to see.
When people go to the doctor, they assume that it's a male doctor.
When people go to a lawyer, they assume that it's going to be a male lawyer, because these are I don't agree.
I hate to, I don't agree with the premise.
You don't have to agree with that.
It's not accurate. Like the medical field, the legal field, yes, let's do this.
We have to agree on fundamental facts, right?
Yes, most lawyers are men.
We can get into why that's the case.
But in the medical field, you have plenty of women.
Obviously, people will argue, many of them go into nursing, but you have plenty of female practitioners who are doctors.
I've had female doctors myself.
My wife has female doctors.
I don't agree with the premise that it has been the norm for a long time, or certainly today, for you to expect a male doctor.
I think you're seeing everything through the prism of gender here, and not through the prism of qualifications.
I don't believe that most people go, if a woman walks into their office when they're on that deli paper saying, whoa, hold on a second, you have breasts?
This is not what I signed up for.
I don't think... Anyone cares.
I really don't. I'm not saying that they care.
I'm not saying that they're going to get up and storm out if a woman walks in.
I'm just saying that there are certain things where you expect a man to show up.
And I think that that's very represented in...
You could even look at our own government.
Only 19% of the House of Representatives is female, and there are only 21 female senators sitting at this moment.
So, you know, that's not equal, right?
That's not, you know, all women.
It's mostly men.
And why do you think that, you know, over half the country are women?
Why do you think that is? Why do you think women aren't voting in the women?
Well, I think that we're not voting in the women just because they're women.
I think that, you know, I don't really want to get into the whole Trump-Hillary thing.
Hillary did win the popular vote.
We don't have to get into all of that s*** right now.
But we are voting in women.
I think that traditionally women have not been...
Pushed into or have not been motivated or have not even really been told that they can achieve Situations like this because we and we can get into sexism with this now women who enter Careers like politics who enter careers like anything where there's a high profile tend to be Put through, like, tend to be scrutinized a lot more than men.
I think that's your view. And that's probably...
And I don't think that that's...
And that's not statistically corroborating.
Here's my point. This is why I think it's so important, the way you reached out to me.
You said the fact that you set up as a male, and no one harassed...
This is a perfect example of male privilege.
You saw that, and you assumed it was because I was a male.
Just like right now, you're assuming that it's because these people running are female.
It's an assumption, and it's a...
And in this case, with me, it was a false one.
You immediately... All right, well...
Let me explain my criticism.
Can I do that? I know that you look like you want to say something else, but can I explain my criticism of you?
Your Change My Mind segment is an example of the lack of diversity that we talk about when we talk about politics.
I mentioned the 19% of the House of Representatives is female.
There are only 21 sitting female senators right now.
So the majority of people who are making the decisions in politics are men.
Empathy is hard.
It's really difficult to know what someone else is going through if you haven't lived it yourself.
So it's difficult for a man to understand something that a woman has gone through if they haven't experienced it themselves.
You can understand that, right?
Do you agree with that or no?
No, I don't agree with the premise that it's difficult to empathize.
If I can't empathize with the plight of someone else because I haven't personally experienced it, I'm a sociopath.
Well, a lot of people have problems with empathy.
A lot of people, like, I can give you...
Well, let's go back to what you were saying, I guess, so before we get...
So you were saying that was an example.
So use my example.
Okay, so your example.
So... So, your Change My Mind segment, to me, was an example of setting up this typical...
Privileged patriarchal system that we have where a man is in power and it's up to me as a constituent to change your mind because you already have an opinion on it, right?
So you were kind of putting together like a mini version of what women feel like we have to do.
Since women and people of color, anyone who is a minority in this country, And who is not represented has to change the mind or, you know, advocate for themselves because they are not represented themselves.
And you would now acknowledge that your premise was incorrect.
Yes. Well, I mean, I still think that that setup is an imperfect setup if you will take a little constructive criticism.
Go ahead. How should it be set up?
And also a big reason, by the way, that it was set up that way is because of females repeatedly violently assaulting me, I'm sure, if you've seen previous videos.
But how do you think it should be set up so that it would not mirror a quote-unquote sort of microcosm of a patriarchal system?
The change my mind positioning is what really, it's more of like, I have this opinion, it is your responsibility to change my mind, instead of being like, hey, let's enter into a discussion like this.
You almost said the word debate, admit it, and then you had to catch yourself.
So let me explain to you why, and maybe this will be illuminating.
The Change My Mind segments, by the way, are pretty popular.
It's the complete opposite of cable news.
That's the design behind this.
So we just recently had one on Pro Gun Change My Mind.
Yeah, I saw that one. And the reason for this is, and most of the time they're incredibly civil.
Ironically enough, the only time we've ever had people violently assault or scream have been feminists on campus.
They haven't been the best ambassadors.
So the purpose for this, and by the way, understand that my view is the unpopular view of I'm going into a campus where the vast majority of people would agree with your presuppositions and not mine.
And so I'm going into actually not only neutral territory, but adversarial territory, presenting a differing point of view and allowing anyone Male, female, black, white.
Take your pick. Your guess is as good as mine.
Whatever gender walks along down the trail.
Anyone to have a conversation.
The onus is on them to present to me why I'm wrong because I am taking a more contrarian view than what's taught in schools because everything you've just said I learned in women's studies in college.
So the reason why I took issue with it because it was a male privilege thing is because as a male, You were saying, I am male, and I think that male privilege is a myth, changed my mind.
So you're asking me as a female to validate my experience.
No, I'm asking you as a critical thinker.
Okay, well, the way it came across to me, and I know a lot of the people that I follow on Twitter, is that you were asking me to validate my experiences within male privilege, which is why I think that you got such a harsh reaction to it from Twitter fans.
That's from Twitter feminists.
And there's the microcosm. You are really in an echo chamber, a bubble, because you can look at the like-to-dislike ratio.
You have people coming in going, listen, I voted for Bernie Sanders, and this is what we need more of, is this kind of a discussion.
The only person seeing it through the prism of gender or seeing it as an example of patriarchy, which, by the way, is false.
It is completely...
I always try to be as civil as possible.
The premise is factually incorrect.
Are the feminists on Twitter?
And I think the reason you're seeing more and more young women not identify as feminists is because they feel increasingly disconnected.
Someone looks at a table where they see someone sit down for hours and they're willing to have a cup of coffee and a conversation with anyone, and they see only the feminists saying, that's offensive for one, two, three reasons, or that's an example of patriarchy for XYZ. Nobody outside of Twitter feminists, no one in real life, Agrees with that.
Campus and feminists.
And so hopefully maybe you can understand if you look at it why the overwhelming reaction was positive from both men and women alike.
I mean, I would also argue that you live within and your Twitter and your followers kind of exist within your own echo chamber and bubble.
You could completely disagree with me on that.
No, because you're here. Well, sure, absolutely.
And you broke through that mold, 100%.
I know that a lot of...
I know that I, as a Twitter feminist, a self-proclaimed Twitter feminist, have broken through into conservative bubbles before as well.
So... You know, I don't necessarily believe that I just exist within an echo chamber.
I think that we all surround ourselves.
Your point of view does. Your point of view does.
It's very, very niche.
It's a very small slice.
And the reason I bring it up is because you said, I think that's why you saw such a strong, harsh reaction.
I didn't. Less than 1% of the reaction.
I mean, across the board.
I said, from Twitter, Femi.
Okay, from Twitter. I think a lot of, you know, a lot of blogs, a lot of websites as well.
There's a very, there's a huge disconnect between the feminist movement, the media who supports them, and mainstream Americans, and I mean left or right.
And so I would just like to, before we move on, I think I'd like to get some specifics if we can.
Would it stand to reason that, you know, your reaction was to say, hey, the fact that you set up here is an example of male privilege.
Have you ever gotten threats? And the fact that you were incorrect, because the reason I set that up was security, getting permits.
Yes, I've received death threats.
Yes, I'm on ISIS's kill list.
Yes, I've had feminists walk up and take a swing at me.
So the fact that you saw through that lens and were so incorrect...
I would like you to move through this conversation accepting the possibility that maybe you are just as wrong on your other fundamental premises.
I believe you are but I certainly want you to present them.
Sure. I mean, and I'm going through this hoping that you may understand that you may be incorrect on some of your fundamental premises.
I very well could. I mean, I think that that's what a discussion is.
I think that you have to open yourself up to a discussion like that.
I don't think that I need to, I should be the only person moving through this conversation.
No, no, I don't either.
I think you were a little more aggressive entering into it, so that's why I wanted to make sure that we clarified that.
And let me clarify my position.
I certainly do not disagree with the idea that there are advantages that men enjoy in society.
I certainly do not disagree with that.
Just as there are... Just a litany of examples of advantages that women enjoy.
I would actually posit that women enjoy far more advantages in 2018.
Well, I feel like that's and that's where the interesting parts of this discussion is going to come down.
And I'm really, I'm actually interested in getting and talking to you about that type of thing.
Because I think that the things that you see as...
Female advantages are not necessarily so.
And I also just want to say before we get into all of that, that in discussing male privilege, any logical human who talks about privilege and who talks about why privilege should be We'll never say that people who experience privilege live perfect, cushy lives. People who experience privilege suffer all the time.
I'm not saying that because men have privilege, they don't suffer.
Like, men are more likely, I think the statistic is from the Department of Why not?
Because women aren't gaining an advantage because you are getting killed, experiencing violent crimes at higher rates.
When we talk about privilege, it's a way that you have an advantage that women have a disadvantage on.
So you don't believe, and that's not the only example, I don't want to hinge on that, but you don't believe that the fact that criminals select primarily male targets for violent assaults, you don't believe that that is advantageous for women.
Well, alright, so we have to break that statistic down then, because I believe, I don't have the statistic in front of me, I believe that the statistic is men are more likely to be murder victims.
By strangers. I believe that that's what the statistic is.
I have to look it up. They're more likely to be the victim of violent crime.
And by the way, also just as likely, if not more, depending on the statistic of being sexually assaulted.
So, I mean, this list can go on.
I mean, we can go down individually, but yes, all of them.
Yeah, but so, and you said, wait, what was the last part of the statistic?
And also, as likely or more likely to be sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
Alright, but I think that the statistic that I'm looking at, and again, we can compare statistics all day, is that women are actually more likely to be victims of sexual violence or domestic violence.
But they're not though, and they're not when you account for the amount of sexual assault that goes on in prisons.
What statistic are you looking at?
This would go from the FBI or CDC, I believe.
But men, when you include men in prisons, incarcerated men, the rate of sexual assault against men goes up significantly.
Sure. And that's often not included.
Yeah, it is often not included.
But what I'm trying to explain to you is that privilege does not...
Like, that is not a female...
Like, that does not... That's not an example of female privilege, that we're murdered less, because it's not an advantage of ours.
The statistic that people like to bring up a lot when discussing male privilege is the pay gap, which I know is something that a lot of conservatives claim is not a true thing.
But it was the Department of Labor, I believe here.
I have it right in front of me here.
The Department of Labor put out That statistic that said 78 cents of every dollar is what women make.
They make that compared to men.
And the numbers degrade when you talk about women of color.
Hispanic women, black women, they make less than that.
I know you said we can argue about stats so we're blue in the face, so I don't want to take mine.
I think it was the Department of Justice, by the way.
But I'll take yours, because obviously, let people know there's nothing up my sleeves.
I didn't feed you that stat.
Totally. You're talking about, right now, the 78% pay gap, okay, and you said it then...
It degrades if you go to women of color.
Now, let me take your stat, because you said, okay, it gets even wider if you take women of color.
How does that gap narrow?
Why have virtually all reputable economists said that it's a myth?
Because you just accounted for variables, very intelligently, that women of color, when you add different variables, you know, that pay gap may be 68%.
But that pay gap becomes 4%, 2%, 0%.
Sometimes a plus 1% or 2% for women.
When what? Are you talking about different industries?
No, not even just that.
See, that stat that you're talking about simply takes the average income of full-time working women versus men.
Now, when you take into account not only industry, but more specifically job, more specifically hours worked, travel, how long they've been in that position, that gap disappears.
As a matter of fact, there are new studies coming out, particularly in science and tech, engineering and STEM, where women make more.
They're certainly admitted at...
Vastly higher rates because women choose not to go into those fields.
So we now have provided incentives for them to where they actually make as much as men.
So you can't use stats one way and say, well, and then that gap widens if they're black.
And then that gap widens if they're, well, hold on a second.
That gap narrows if they're both in the medical field.
That gap is now non-existent if the female and male are both doctors working the same hours in the same state.
There is no gap. Sure, but there are also statistics that show that women are promoted less because employers are afraid that they're going to get pregnant and that they're not going to stick around for all that often.
They're not given raises at the same pace that men tend to be.
Do women get pregnant more often than men?
Yeah, but that's not something that should be held against us because it cuts both ways.
Women are told...
I'm sorry, but it's not something that should factor into whether or not I get a promotion about whether I may be pregnant down the line.
How much money you will cost or make the company should not be factored into how much money I pay you.
You can, God forbid, get sick and have to take a long leave of absence from your company.
Should that be factored in?
But it is not a statistical 50-50 likelihood, sometimes more when you get over the age of 30, that I'm going to get sick.
It is a statistical likelihood that most women, this is where feminists disconnect from, most women want to make babies.
Most women want to have babies.
And so women... End up leaving the workforce for at least nine months.
I would argue against that.
That is an opinion that most women want to have babies.
I think that society puts a lot of pressure on women to have babies.
More than men? More than men?
100%. Because women are...
We are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
If we decide that we want to have babies, you just said we're going to be costing the company more, so we're not getting raises as often.
If we choose not to have children, we are as...
I think it was... Who was that senator here?
I have it written down.
It was that... Courtland Sykes said that he did not want his daughters to be career-obsessed banshees.
So that is an example of the idea of what women are if we choose not to have children and we choose to pursue a career.
We are career-obsessed banshees.
And that double standard does not exist for men.
Do you think that's exclusive to women?
You think it's exclusive of women that people hate their bosses?
No, I don't think it's exclusive to women.
And again, a statistical likelihood, you talked about this, banshees.
Yeah, I think that's actually, I think that's a pretty funny example.
I'd probably describe a lot of bosses who I had, including some at Fox News, as banshees, men or women, screeching banshees, not big fans of them.
But the point is, you just said damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I just heard that women had a choice.
Guess what a man has?
Damned if you do. And guess what?
Do. Because we don't get to have babies.
We don't get leave.
There isn't maternity leave.
And I know you can point to examples like Sweden and places where men do have paternity leave and they don't contribute anything other than occasionally a new form of birth control every century.
But we're talking about here in the United States of America.
I certainly would not consider that patriarchy.
And I believe that you should have paternity leave.
I think that you 100%, if you and your wife decide to have children, you should have paternity leave.
Go for it. Well, I guess it's a good thing that the white men in power voted for maternity leave and nine months off and nothing for us.
So you can thank them for that.
That is something that I completely think that is wrong.
It's wrong. And I think that it goes back to the fact that women...
Again, I'm giving you the example that traditional patriarchal mindsets affect you too.
You should 100% get nine months off if you decide to have a child.
And let me say this, while we're getting personal, you should 100% if you date a man who wants nine months off, leave him.
That's not the guy you want providing for you.
Why? No, I wouldn't do it, and I don't know any man who would want to do it.
It'd be nice to get a few weeks off, you know, maybe go down to Kauai, have a luau, that'd be fun.
Nine months off? No.
But let me, I certainly, I think you went to the worst example right off the bat, and I think you'll see that most people don't agree with you on that.
So let's go down the list to other examples.
Because certainly I think you would concede, we would both agree, there is an economic argument to be made there as to why we're just talking bottom line dollars and cents with pregnancy.
That's not indicative of, period, overall females in the workforce versus men.
So let's remove pregnancy from the table and move on down to advantages that you believe are afforded to men, not to women.
So, I think that we've...
Hold on. Let me center myself now.
We talked about rape threats, right?
I got a lot of rape threats.
That's an odd sequence. Let me center myself.
Rape! Let's jump right to rape.
I know. Well, that's what's on my notes.
I have notes. I appreciate that you didn't get offended at that.
That was a joke. So, I appreciate that we'll have a conversation.
Go ahead. Any notes you have.
And I hope... Any notes I have.
So... You talk about violent threats.
Do you get rape threats? I'm really curious to hear if you get rape threats.
Yes. Particularly from Muslims. Really?
Yeah, thousands per day. Thousands per day, from Muslims particularly.
Yes. Okay.
All right. Well, you are someone...
I don't know many men who get rape threats.
And to me, rape threats are...
You ever watched Oz? No.
One episode. No.
Shawshank! Green Mile!
Take your pick! I mean, you're talking about the prison system, which is a completely different conversation.
What do you think a man is saying, this colloquialism, where a man calls a man bitch?
Yeah.
Yeah. So probably just because they're looking at what gets under your skin.
When, you know, an angry online jihadi says that he's going to rape me, I get a chuckle, I make sure he's not doxing me, and then I move along, you know, down the trail.
I know that upsets women more.
So these are online trolls.
Yeah, and it upsets women more because it is a legitimate, violent threat towards us.
It's something that, you know...
And it's not toward a man?
Well, you, if you, okay, so you're talking, if you remove the prison system, because that is a specific, that is a culture that is not representative of the culture at large.
It is a very specific thing.
It's representative of matriarchy, I'll tell you that, because men are far more likely to be incarcerated and for longer times for the same crimes as women.
So I think it's pivotal that we touch on that at some point in this conversation.
We should touch on that at some point, but what I'm saying is that if you remove that, women are more likely to experience sexual violence than men.
Okay? Can you concede that point to me if we remove prisons?
If you remove prisons, sure.
Yes. I don't think you should, because I think we include the prison system, for example, and I think I've heard you discuss this point or tweet about it, that black men are five times as likely to be incarcerated.
Yes! Maybe, 100%. And it's a terrible, terrible thing.
Well, it's like the pay gap stat, right?
So you use that, but you don't account for...
Black men are that amount more likely to commit crimes than men.
Now, that being said, let's go the other way.
Men are more likely to get longer sentences and more likely to be punished and sent to prison for the exact same crime as women.
Yes, and that is an issue.
That's a huge issue. Why would we exclude it from the sexual assault conversation?
This is an example of a systemic advantage.
I'm trying to explain why, like, men are, women get rape threats from men more than we get rape threats from other women, okay?
Okay, men get rape threats and are raped more by men than they are by women.
I'm talking about the way that men and women interact with one another here, right?
So when we're talking about privilege and we're talking about all this stuff, women
are more likely to experience sexual assault from men than men are from women.
And that, you know, you're describing some of the workings of a patriarchy there, because
For a long time, men had dominion over women's bodies.
Marital rape wasn't something that was illegal in this country until 1993.
And to this day, there are still some states where marital rape is not tried the same way as regular rape.
And it just shows that— And it's terrible.
Listen, you shouldn't rape someone, even if she said I do, okay?
We both agree on that.
I'm certainly not a rape apologist.
But again, you're cherry-picking data, and you do this a lot.
You're not acknowledging that men were also publicly humiliated, flogged, beaten, dragged through the streets if they so much as laid a hand on their wife.
Never so if a wife takes a swat at a husband.
So when we're talking societally, there have been different standards applied, of course, to both men and women.
But both enjoy different advantages and disadvantages.
I'm certainly not seeing this as an example of today, the society at large, favoring men.
I really would say in 2018, it's the opposite.
If you and I, for example, if you and I go into the field of science and technology, okay?
If you and I have the exact same scores, if you and I went to the exact same school, if you and I are just as qualified, you're getting the spot, not me.
Are you sure of that?
Statistically, yes. Are you 100% sure of that?
Statistically, yes. The statistical likelihood?
Yes. Well, you can see that there are situations in which if a male and a female are up against the same job, the male will get...
I think I sent you one of these studies.
It was the study of... You did.
I remember it. If you don't have it in front of you, I remember it.
It was a 2012 study.
Yeah. Yeah, it was a 2012 study about, I believe, in science and technology.
And this was a very small sample size.
About 100-something CVs were used.
And the problem with it, and this is something that feminists use a lot, kind of like the pay gap.
They use a stat that they know really isn't accurate, and they know it's not something that would hold water when it comes to the court of arguments.
It's a very small sample size.
CV. The pay gap doesn't.
Come on. You know that. This is a very small sample study.
2012. To say that we know that it's not going to hold water is just insulting and is just ridiculous.
It's slightly so. I'll give you that.
It was slightly insulting. It's a little condescending.
I'll give you that.
It is. But statistically, it still is something that...
Put it this way. It is either startling that the feminist movement at large have never read from including female economists...
Or it's startling that they have and ignore it.
It's one of the two. But the statistic is a statistic.
It doesn't care about which group it's offending.
It's just not accurate.
Now, when it comes to this study, if I'm not mistaken, I believe it was a 2012 study that used a very small sample size, and it looked at people specifically in entry-level jobs.
Here's the thing. Feminists reached back to 2012 to take that study.
But we have other studies, and we have meta-analyses.
There was a 2015 study that looked at the same thing.
I believe it used about 800-something applicants.
And when it actually took into account people in different jobs, people, you know, becoming tenured professors, you know, the salary of a biology professor, it actually found that at higher levels of education, women in the STEM fields were much more likely to be accepted with the same parameters.
This was a more comprehensive study.
It included a larger sample size, and it's more recent.
I don't know why all of the blogs and feminists on Twitter haven't been able to find a 2015 study, but it's more valid and substantial.
And I think that's important.
I'm sure you weren't aware of it.
I certainly am not attributing to any kind of malice what I think can be attributed to not knowing.
But it is remarkable that a 2012 study is still used to prove that point.
Is that the study that you're talking about right now is specific to the STEM industry, to those types of jobs?
Yes, because I believe you sent me the one, the 2012 study on that.
That was what you tweeted me. Okay.
So, yes. Hold on.
If you want, I can probably find it and bring it up pretty quickly.
No, I believe you.
It's not a, you know, I completely, yeah.
Sure, you don't have to look it up.
I'm sure that it exists.
I will happily look it up after you and I are done.
I can send it to you or we can put it kind of in the description.
But yes, there was a 2015 study that included a much larger sample size.
So okay, so let's just, if we assume that I'm not lying, let's take that off the table.
So now that's gone.
Alright, so if you still want to talk about jobs, and you will probably tell me that this is not, it does not hold water because it's anecdotal.
There have been multiple times that trans men have discussed their experiences with privilege once they have transitioned.
So when they were presenting as female to when they were presenting as male.
So once they started presenting as male, they would start Experiencing privilege in their day-to-day lives here.
A couple of pieces of privilege that they have experienced.
I'm suddenly funny.
I didn't want to laugh because I didn't know if you were meant to.
Okay, that's funny. A couple pieces of privilege.
That's good. No, no, no.
The first point was I'm suddenly more funny.
The trans man. Oh, I thought you were saying it was a joke.
A couple pieces of privilege. No, no, no.
That was pretty good, though.
That they're suddenly more funny.
That they're taken more seriously.
That they rarely get interrupted.
That they get paid more.
Clothing is more practical.
They get more free passes.
They're more likely to arrive home safely after walking alone at night.
They don't have to worry about keeping an eye on their drink as often as they did when they were presenting as females.
They're not told by strangers to smile.
They don't have strangers giving uninvited opinions about their bodies as they pass by.
Again, that's not surprising to me.
I mean, I'm sure you can imagine that a lot of those things aren't because they're a man.
How often do you get yelled at when you walk down the street?
Like, hey baby, like, you know, nice ass, like whatever.
Like, how often do you get cackled when you walk down the street?
Well, I don't have a nice ass, so it'd be hard to know.
I have a terrible ass.
I have a giant ass. A couple of things.
So, first off, you're right.
I really am not super interested in the anecdotal, but I'll entertain this discussion for a bit because I do find it interesting.
Sure. Yeah.
and how it does not benefit... it also is... sorry my mouth is getting dry... has negative
ramifications for men as well as women. It sounds to me like you're talking
about how gender is societal. These pressures to make these decisions, to
look a certain way, to act a certain way, to go into certain fields...
From what I've been understanding, gender is societal.
Gender is, yes, is a societal construct.
Okay, good. Yes, I believe that.
So, I ask this because I'm confused.
Please explain your views on transgenderism.
Meaning? If gender is a social construct, how can one be transgender?
I don't believe that there are many biological differences between men and women either, so I don't really understand what you're saying here.
And what's the point to being transgender?
We're talking about because they want to go through biological transitions, talking about hormones, sex change operations.
If gender is a social construct, This idea of transgenderism, not transsexualism, you use the word transgender, would have to mean that a male is born into the wrong body, the wrong gender, the wrong brain.
And a female is born into a male body.
So if gender is a social construct, how can one be transgender?
Or how could you possibly support someone trying to conform to the gender constructs as created by society?
I don't necessarily believe that they are born into the wrong body.
I think that they are assigned the wrong body at birth.
So I think that, you know, a doctor births a baby and he sees that it has a penis.
He says, this is a boy, right?
That's typically how it goes.
It's a boy. It's got a penis.
So they are assigned that gender at birth.
So transgenderism is, you know, I don't understand how you can go to transgenderism and talk about advantages when you say that gender is a social construct.
Transgenderism fails to hold up if gender is a social construct.
Gender has to be biological.
It has to. You can't take a biological hammer to a societal nail.
It doesn't make any sense. Logically, it doesn't make any sense.
You can't be born into the wrong gender if gender is a social construct.
And that's one thing that I find incredibly ironic where women talk about, feminists talk about, we're forced to live up to these expectations.
We're forced to look a certain way, talk a certain way, act a certain way.
And then a man says, I've always felt like I wanted to look, talk, and act that certain way.
Really? You look like a real-life Barbie doll because you've had some estrogen replacement therapy.
Come on over. We'll accept you as one of our own.
Transgender men to women are basically pretending to be Every negative stereotype you've talked about presented for women societally.
I actually can't believe that we're having this conversation now because it is completely bonkers what you are trying to argue with me right now.
To say that a person who was assigned the wrong gender at birth and who had a lifetime of gender biases pushed upon them, where they had to be hyper-masculine because they were assigned male at birth, That they had to dress a certain way when they didn't feel like that was the way that they wanted to dress.
They felt feminine.
They're not...
They felt feminine because of societal pressure, which you seek to destroy.
So that's a bad thing.
What are you talking about?
I'm saying that if a person is assigned male at birth, okay, and they identify as female, they have...
An entire life of male gender tropes pushed upon them.
But they identify as female.
But they identify as female.
They're identifying with the gender tropes thrust upon females.
You understand? Again, it has to be consistent going both ways.
I don't identify with the societal pressures of being a male.
I identify as female.
What do you identify with when it comes to being female?
Is it biology? No, I don't believe, and we can go into this if you really want to, I don't believe that there are many biological differences between men and women.
Really? At all.
Yes, I do. And we can discuss this if you would like to.
I'm probably not the best person to discuss this because I was assigned female at birth.
I identify as female.
I am cisgendered. I am straight.
It would probably behoove you to have a trans individual on here discussing this.
We've had many. But...
Yeah, I know that you have, but this specifically...
So, do you want to get into this?
It doesn't sound like you do, and I don't know that we'll make a lot of headway.
So, you know, dealer's choice.
We don't have a ton of time because we do have another guest to pre-tape, actually, from the high school in Florida where the shooting took place.
So, I don't want to...
Yeah, he's actually...
He would be taking a contrarian viewpoint, not super thrilled with his classmates.
So, I would like you to...
Let me ask you this. It seems to me like, like you said, we can talk about that with a transgender person.
I don't think we'll make a ton of progress there, but I really do appreciate you taking the time to be here.
I would put forth these examples certainly in 2018, and I think if our goal is to help People, male or female, it would behoove us all to be honest.
And I think that you have a lot of young men and I think feminists don't really understand how out of touch they are with a lot of young men as well as young women.
When you look at young men, they go, hold on a second, we make up 90 something percent of workplace deaths.
We're three something times more likely to commit suicide.
We obviously are more likely to be sexually assaulted.
We're five times more likely to be incarcerated.
We're more likely to be incarcerated for the same crime.
We are dominated by women at every aspect of education, from kindergarten through college, outside of SAT scores.
They get more placement.
I think we're good to go.
You'll see some very negative ramifications within generation.
And I would hate to see the pendulum swing so far the other way.
Because listen, I'm more traditional.
I know sometimes that offends feminists, but I'm married.
I hold the door for my wife.
I believe in chivalry.
I really do believe in treating women respectfully.
And I do see a lot of young sort of men's rights activists going so far the other way now where they feel as though they've been so disrespected and their voices haven't been heard that they respond disrespectfully.
And I don't think that's productive for anyone.
And so I think truth is important in this discussion above all else.
All I want to say is that when people are talking about privilege, we're not trying to say that people are actively acting in a way that...
Like, men are acting in a way that makes...
That they believe that they deserve more.
We know that. Right.
The majority of men are just behaving in a system that tends to...
And you don't agree with this, pat them on the back more than they pat women on the back.
And when we say check your privilege, all we're trying to say is acknowledge us, acknowledge our experiences.
You know, I know that you don't like anecdotes, but listen to women, listen to what happens to them, and then maybe say, hey, you know what?
I don't really want to live in a world where I have to worry about my girlfriend getting raped when she walks home or that she has to worry about it.
And for the record, I am happy when a man holds the door open for me and I will happily hold the door open for a man as well.
That's just respect to me.
Well, thank you. And I appreciate how respectful you've been.
I hope that you feel this has been a productive and back and forth discussion, even with disagreements.
Yes, I do. Okay.
And thank you. And I do as well.
And I very much appreciate it. Listen, people, if you're going to tweet her, Maria underscore Del Russo, be respectful.
Voice your disagreements as respectfully as possible.
I cannot apologize or take responsibility for people with Twitter eggs and four followers.
Sure, yeah. Ms.
Del Russo. And I don't expect you to take responsibility for your followers.
Just the fact that you're telling them be respectful is...
Well, we always do, and as a matter of fact, we did that with the Change My Mind segments, and usually the audience is very respectful.
So, Maria Del Rosso, thank you so much for taking the time.
I really appreciate it, and I hope to have you back, genuinely, on the program.
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