Dallas Sonnier, a conservative filmmaker behind Am I Racist?, What Is a Woman?, and Frontier Crucible—a $1.4M Western shot in Monument Valley with William H. Macy, Thomas Jane, and Army Hammer—rejects pandering to conservative audiences, instead creating unfiltered, culturally bold films like Muzzle and Muzzle City of Wolves. He blames Hollywood’s ideological stranglehold and lack of conservative distribution, urging investment in film education and infrastructure to counter left-wing dominance. Sonnier’s work proves that conservative cinema thrives when built on artistic integrity, not just market demands. [Automatically generated summary]
First and foremost, yeah, I will never give the conservative audience exactly what they want.
It gets me in a lot of trouble.
It gets me in a lot of trouble, but then they watch the movies and they fall in love.
Hey, everyone.
It's Andrew Klavan with this week's interview with Dallas Sonnier.
As you know, I love to bring rebel filmmakers on, and there is nobody more rebellious than Dallas.
He has been working with the Daily Wire.
He's done everything here.
He's done Am I Racist? What is a Woman? Produce Run Hide Fight and worked very hard on the Pendragon cycle.
He has got his own film out called Frontier Crucible, which is not done in conjunction with the Daily Wire.
And we'll talk about that as well.
But Dallas, it's good to see you.
It's been a while.
We haven't actually talked for quite some time.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me on.
Obviously, I'm a huge fan of Daily Wire and working with you guys and have been a fan of you for so many years.
And what a blast to be able to come on your show.
Well, I appreciate that.
And I have been a fan of yours ever since I saw Bone Tomahawk, one of those films that I think I watched it.
Ben watched it.
Jeremy watched it all separately.
And we all came in with our eyes like saucers.
I mean, you really have remarkably made a career doing things that nobody else would touch.
I mean, Bone Tomahawk is a shocking movie just because of its attitude.
I have only gotten to see a bit of Frontier Crucible.
I got the film very late.
But I got to say, the minute it started, there's something that you do that I can't quite put my finger on that is a different voice.
I mean, I know that you're not the director.
You're not even the, you know, you're the producer, but somehow everything you touch has a different look.
And I guess what I'd like to know, let's talk about Frontier Crucible first.
I mean, tell people what it's about.
Sure.
Frontier Crucible is out right now on demand, Apple, iTunes, Amazon, various rental platforms, and it'll end up on streaming at some point.
But it is a traditional Western.
So if you're fans of old school Westerns, John Ford, The Searchers, Bud Bedeker, the Tall T, like all these kind of wonderfully classic Westerns.
And then it's also inspired deeply by the early 70s counterculture Westerns of Sam Peckinpaw with Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, Altmans, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, even Jeremiah Johnson to an extent.
And we really wanted to make a Western that was pure and traditional, right?
We didn't want to cut any corners about the savagery of the West or the sort of gender dynamics or any of these kinds of things.
It was very impactful for us.
And we really wanted a moral, stoic Western hero.
And so that's what we did.
And it's absolutely wonderful.
There's so many great stories about how the movie came together.
And we're just really thrilled to have it out and people can see it now.
You know, obviously it's an independent release.
So it was out in two theaters this weekend or whatever, as happens.
But it's a really special movie.
And I think it's for especially for starting with Western fans of classic traditional Westerns.
I think they're going to be shocked at feeling something in a modern era, which feels like a movie that could have been made 30, 40, 50, 70 years ago.
That was my immediate reaction to it as I started watching it.
It looks very John 40, not in a, you know, more in an homage way than in an imitative way.
And it just has that look.
It's obviously shot.
It must have been shot right where Ford shot some of his Westerns.
You start out with an actual song like the old Westerns did.
I mean, it was very, it's very aggressive in its attitude.
Now, was that in the script or was that just something you thought like I want to bring out of the script?
Yeah.
So the book, the book, the movie is based on a book called Desert Stakeout by Harry Whittington.
Harry Whittington was one of the classic pulp Western novelists.
And my frequent collaborator in the past, S. Craig Zoller, who did Bone Tomahawk and Brawl and Cellblock 99 and Dragged Across Concrete with me, he brought me that book and he said, hey, turn the book into a script, literally page for page, word for word, and it's going to time out perfectly for the types of movies that you love to make.
And so, of course, Zoller speaks and I listen.
And so we did it.
We literally took the book, put it into final draft.
That's why there's no screenwriter on the movie.
And we literally shot the book.
It's insane.
We changed a couple of character names.
We changed a couple of moments.
Originally, the scene where William H. Macy's character finds our hero in the desert, that was not originally in Monument Valley.
That was us being, you know, being fans of the Wild West.
That scene took place in a Western town in the major's office, but we moved it outside because we wanted to shoot Monument Valley.
And we figured we needed a one-day shoot in Monument Valley.
And so we worked with the Navajo tribe in Arizona up there.
They were gracious hosts.
We had a wonderful time.
And we shot literally on John Ford Point, which is the classic visual.
And it was just wonderful and is one of the great experiences of my life.
I flew into Phoenix a couple hours before William H. Macy arrived.
I personally picked him up from the airport with my driver and we drove out to Monument Valley together, spent the day.
Then he shot his scene the next day and then we took him home.
So it was just one of those amazing, you know, the beauty of making movies is getting to have those kinds of moments and shoot in that honored ground and that sacred ground for Westerns and be able to make something.
So yeah, it was really, it started out with Whittington's novel brought to me by Zoller.
And then we went and made this movie and really, really wanted to honor the great Western traditions.
So here's something.
I don't want to come at this from a negative standpoint.
It's my negativity.
When I watch your films, and this film too, even as I started it, like I said, there's something about the way you do these things that just kind of gets me right away.
And I love Dragged Across Concrete as well.
I mean, you're a hyper-violent guy, you know, in real life.
No, in films, you'd like to push it.
But the minute I saw this, there's something that you do that people who want to bring conservatives into the movies don't do.
Yeah.
Two things.
One is that you really know films.
You don't just know them like in detail.
You know how they work.
And I can see it.
And when you start talking, you talk like I sometimes talk when I'm talking about movies.
You really know how the movies work.
But the other thing is you don't pander to the conservative audience that never wants anybody to curse, that never wants.
So, which makes the movies better.
I mean, it makes if you give conservatives what they want, the movies will not be as good as if you give them what they need.
And that's one of my agents when said that to me.
Don't give people what they want, give them what you think, but you know they want.
Yeah.
So, so what is that?
I mean, you're working so independently, obviously, and yet you get William Macy, who's a fantastic actor.
How do you do that?
How do you pull that stuff on?
I think it's a combination of it started out with just my dad playing tons and tons of great classic movies for me as a kid.
You know, I, I, I mean, when they brought out the GIMP and pulp fiction, I was in the audience as a 13-year-old, you know, right there.
And just, you know, just being exposed to all those great movies, even as a young age, even at a young age when most weren't.
And it just became it part of my blood and my life, my life and in my soul.
In fact, one year when I was 10, I asked for HBO in my room as my Christmas present.
So, you know, and I've just been inspired by Robert Evans and Jerry Bruckheimer and so many of the great 70s and 80s film people, executives and producers and studio executives.
And of course, just understanding the deep lexicon of directors and actors and performances and things like that.
I'll give you a good example.
If you put red blood on screen, it will look like neon ketchup.
And so for the Godfather, in the horsehead scene, Francis Ford Coppola developed his own brown blood with his team.
And I went and got the formula for that blood that we used on Bone Tomahawk.
Zahler and I, you know, were very serious about this.
And since then, I've used the Coppola brown blood.
And so we have to sit down with all of our hair and makeup people right off the bat in pre-production and say, no red blood anywhere in the trailer.
Leave it in your car.
Don't bring it in.
And we bring in gallons of the Dallas dark blood.
And that's it.
We just have to do that kind of stuff.
But it's that deep understanding of Coppola and how Coppola made Godfather so great.
And then you're able to replicate it and stuff like that.
So it's being inspired by the greats and really caring deeply about cinema.
I really love that word, cinema.
It's a word that's very important to me and very special to me.
And then I would say it really was just a, you know, I went and worked with all these amazing filmmakers when I was an apprentice and as an agent and a manager and moving into producing and things like that.
And so I just take it very seriously because I just, every single movie is a miracle and I really don't want to mess up ever.
I want every movie to have the best shot.
And that's honestly what I bring to the table with Daily Wire so many different times is, you know, just making sure that we're competitive, that we have the right people, that the movies are good.
I don't write the scripts and I don't direct the movies and I don't act in them, but I am the concrete block stopping bad from coming in, you know?
And that's really, that's a, that's a huge honor and a huge role for me.
And I really take it very seriously.
You know, so talk to me a little bit about the process.
One thing I've always admired about your films is that they, they look like millions of dollars, but you bring them in at low budget and you and you bring scripts that don't depend on, you know, CGI or whatever.
They don't depend on big expensive things.
And then you get them financed and you get a cat.
I mean, Frontier Crucible has Army Hammer.
It has William Macy, has Jane Thomas Jane.
You know, that's a good cast, you know, and those are all good people.
If I'm a young screenwriter or a young movie maker and I come to you and I say, you know, I'm a conservative, I'm a MAGA guy, you know, everybody hates me.
What's your advice?
How do you get them to the place that you are where you can be whoever you want and make movies?
Sure.
I mean, my first and foremost, going back to what you said something earlier, yeah, I will never give the conservative audience exactly what they want.
It gets me in a lot of trouble.
It gets me in a lot of trouble, but then they then they watch the movies and they fall in love.
We have a franchise out called Muzzle.
Muzzle, and then the sequel came out this year called Muzzle City of Wolves.
And it starts out with Aaron Eckhart and his dog driving around Los Angeles and scoffing at tent cities.
I mean, that is the most right-wing opening in the world.
He's a cop.
He's a canine.
He's got his dog.
He's a badass.
He's going to take care of the bad guys.
And he's not happy about the tent city all over Los Angeles.
Everyone knows where you're going with this, right?
No one's confused.
And so what a wonderful, you know, kind of start to a movie that people just don't see anymore, right?
Dragged across concrete, Mel Gibson and Vince Vaughan playing very controversial police officers trying to track down a criminal and what lines will they cross and things like that.
So I've always been, I've gravitated towards complicated, conservative, traditional male heroes.
I think that is such a wonderful cinematic archetype that has gone away in this past 10 years of woke.
Thank God woke is dead.
And now we're in some insidious turf war.
But I think it's even more important that we make more good, conservative, male, traditional characters, but you can't make them perfect.
They aren't Jesus.
And so you have to make them really complicated and interesting and so on and so forth.
How I go about it is a few things.
It's a mindset, right?
So if you go up to a studio where you want to shoot and you know that their fee is $15,000 a day, if you call them and you say, guys, what's your fee?
Home Title Lock Risk00:02:38
They will tell you $15,000 a day.
If you call them and you say, hey, here's what the movie is, here's what we're about.
This is something special.
I hate to say it to you, but we only have $5,000 a day to shoot there.
Could we do this?
Could we give you a special thanks credit?
Could we make sure to bring your family to set?
Like anything, right?
And that's the move.
You've got to think that way.
And so that's how you make $10 million movies that are $2 million.
Frontier Crucible's budget was $1.4 million.
Wow.
Wow.
And a lot of that was cast because we did have William H. Macy and Thomas Jane, Army Hammer and so forth.
But so, you know, the production, the actual below-the-line production budget on that was very low.
And so we're proud of that.
We don't, every single cent goes up on screen.
Every single cent.
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But you know, it's interesting.
The other day, Sidney Sweeney, who conservatives were thrilled because she didn't apologize for her jeans at.
She apologized for her jeans at.
She had two flop films and she must have been feeling it.
And I'm sure the people were pressuring her.
It's not going to help her any, but like, you know, there she goes.
Hollywood's Battle00:10:45
So William Macy, I mean, he's a he's a guy that the reviewers love, that everybody loves.
Is he worried about being seen with you?
I mean, I know I am, but I mean, it's like, yeah.
I'll say, keep in mind, you know, William H. Macy went through the ringer with his wife on the college acceptance.
Yes, of course.
Yes.
And she actually served time.
She's deterred.
And I think that when you go through those situations, those persecutions, you know, even when it's, even when it's deserved, you can't help but come out of that having a respect for other people who've gone through it.
Right.
And so I think that's why we all really gravitate towards Donald Trump and things like that, because we can understand he's been put through it too.
And so, and so I think that Macy, although he's a wonderful classic liberal, he's so much fun to be around and he doesn't like woke, right?
That's the thing.
These, these classic liberals don't, they don't like woke.
They don't like it.
They, they, they don't, they, they have very classic liberal concepts of, you know, society and civil rights and taxes and all these different things.
But really, when it comes to woke, that's, they, they, they really, they really don't, don't like it.
Yeah.
And so we had wonderful, wonderful political conversations on the ride up.
He challenged me on a ton of stuff.
And then he would get his ukulele out and start playing it for the cast and crew.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Such a great guy.
I mean, that's the funny thing about those great guys.
Those old liberals.
Yeah.
And, and, and, and to his, to his credit and to Thomas Jane's credit, they were so warm to Army Hammer.
You know, this was his first movie back.
He had not been on a set in years.
Um, certainly the sort of post-traumatic stress that comes out of something like this.
We, you know, I've been on set with Mel Gibson in the aftermath of his challenges.
Yeah.
Certainly we made the Gina Carano movie with Daily Wire in the aftermath of her Disney cancellation.
This is really, really, really traumatic stuff.
And so for Army Hammer to get back on the saddle and to have those two guys in his corner was really meaningful to him.
And they've all maintained a friendship and text messages and things like that.
So I give them a lot of credit, Thomas Jane, especially for just being wonderful, wonderful, great sort of, you know, old school, old school buddies.
You know, they're really, they're really leaders on the set.
And I really appreciate that.
So let's talk a little bit.
We're talking to Dallas Sonier.
His new film is Frontier Crucible, which you can get on at Apple and the stores.
Yeah, anywhere you can rent.
Good.
Okay.
And let's talk about where Hollywood is at, because what I hear from people out there is everybody's out of work.
You know, people will do anything.
You can even tell that they've stopped.
Even the left people have stopped talking about politics.
They get it.
They hate them and all this stuff.
Where do you think this is going?
Oh well, i'll say this, uh, we're shooting a secret movie out in Los Angeles right now.
Can't talk about it you, you know all about it, I know all about it, but we can't talk about it publicly.
Um, the crew base is wonderful out here.
They are such great people and they are pretty freaking conservative.
Yeah okay always, there ain't a lot of lunatics on on the in the La crew base.
Okay, gaffers and set builders and all this kind of no way.
They all, they all love the daily WIRE, they love us, things like that.
So when you plant your flag out here, it's actually really, really wonderful.
We got an amazing crew on this, on this thing we're doing right now, and I just think there's really an opportunity for conservatives.
Look, Woke is dead.
It's dead, it died.
President Trump got re-elected it's dead.
Uh, we're in the middle of a almost a crusader level war right now for the soul of our country, for our borders, all these different things.
Now we have a chance, because conservatives love movie stars.
They love movie stars.
Anyone who became famous pre-2008, when Barack Obama ruined movies, ruined comedy, ruined rock and roll, ruined everything.
Uh, we really have a chance to kind of take back some ground in this moment.
So my big pitch to everybody is, don't shy away, dude.
I moved to Nashville, I love it in Nashville, but don't forget that the battle's taking place also in Los Angeles, also in New York, and so I think conservatives should be sending their kids to film schools in these major cities.
Give them the, the armor of god as kids, so they can walk into these universities and be strong.
You know conservative voices again.
Right, the battle is on again.
We, we had our.
We retreated in Covet.
We did the correct thing.
You have to sometimes retreat, but cool, let's go take back Hollywood.
Hollywood is so messed up right now.
Everyone's afraid.
Everyone doesn't know what to do.
No one cares about movies anymore because no one's making any good movies.
I mean, I will say there were some great movies this year, but outside of my four or five favorite movies Eddington, Warfare Weapons, a couple of other things F1 it's a steep drop off and it goes to nothing.
I mean, if you go through the screeners, the Academy screeners this year, Secret Agent and, oh my gosh, all these, all these sort of weird uh, sort of Palestinian propaganda films I mean it is terrible and they're terrible movies and Hollywood is acting like they love them and everyone knows they're terrible.
Nobody wants to watch these, nobody.
But Hollywood is so committed to their crazy lunacy that they can't stop, and so they're destroying themselves.
AI is just coming in and taking over, and I I will say this, like what an opportunity for conservative filmmakers, conservative media, all this kind of stuff.
This is really an opportunity to strike and strike hard.
You know, I couldn't agree with you more.
They're giving, they're going to give every award they can possibly, they may make up awards to give them to one battle after another.
A film that basically glorifies violent radicalism.
And look, you know, a lot of talent goes into that movie.
I never knocked the people who are doing it in terms of their talent, but it's the one film they made that people didn't spit on, you know, that this is left-wing film.
And Eddington will get nothing, I bet.
Like Eddington, nothing, which is probably a better film, certainly a more disturbing and interesting film.
Well, also on that front, so sinners, one battle after another.
Yes.
Technically, masterpieces.
Amazing.
Oh, my gosh.
The cinematography and the camera work, the performances, the direction, all this kind of stuff.
Oh, my gosh, they're so good.
It's so, it's, that's the, those are the movies that get me all riled up because I'm jealous that they have all that money and talent around, right?
Yeah.
But we are building.
And I will say, those movies are so morally bankrupt.
They are so morally bankrupt.
Probably Sinners, especially, I thought was incredible.
And, you know, not spoilers, but the end of one battle after another with the letter and, oh my gosh, like it is so morally bankrupt.
And so, and so I just think that like, look, with, with the Ellisons coming in and taking over Paramount and the wackiness of the Netflix Warner Brothers deal, there's so much turmoil.
And the thing is, is that conservatives understand business.
They understand building businesses.
We do it better than the left.
Let's do it right now.
Let's do this.
I think Daily Wire is a huge part of this.
I'm so excited about all this stuff we're doing internally and everything we're working on.
I got to get you on a set immediately.
I don't know when we're making a movie, but we have to make one.
ASAP.
It's the great tragedy of Daily Wire movies so far is there isn't a Clavin movie yet.
But we'll fix that.
And I just want everyone to be offense only, offense only, right?
Every conservative needs to read Rick Rubin's book.
Every conservative needs to read Kid Stays in the Picture by Robert Evans.
Every conservative needs to watch the great movies of the 70s and 80s.
They need to understand film history and things like that.
They need to go watch the pilot of Miami Vice, right?
The greatest pilot of all time.
You know what I'm saying?
Like you got to go and do all that.
You got to understand your history.
You got to understand cameras.
You got to understand film.
You got to understand the digital cameras.
You got to really, really immerse yourself in it.
And we need talent.
We need help.
Our bench is so short.
Producers, directors, writers, actors, people email me.
I get right back to them right away.
But I just really, you know, I really think that Hollywood is ours for the taking if we can come together, stop arguing on the fringes and come together and make classic, amazing stories where men are men and women are women and heroes are great, but flawed.
And they have to overcome obstacles and all this kind of stuff.
Man, what an exciting time.
Yeah.
And, you know, this thing about men and men and women and women, as corny as it sounds, I think that that is one of the things that has damaged storytellings more than anything else is that you cannot see a woman.
You cannot see a woman on screen who acts anything like a woman that you might meet.
I mean, it just doesn't happen.
And sure.
Yeah.
You know, is there some woman who's not going to be able to do that?
I was going to say, that's the hilarity of Run Hide Fight, which is the movie that they all wanted, right?
The strong female fights back, you know.
Oh my God.
Building Distribution Platforms00:05:52
Yeah.
But, but, you know, of course they can't.
You know, that's, that's, that's, that's the hilariousness of it all.
And it kills the tension of the film because, you know, a plucky heroine who has to be smart because she's not big.
And, you know, I mean, all of that stuff is what makes, and a love story.
Uh, all of that stuff is what makes for drama.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
If you could, if you were walking down the beach in Santa Monica and you kicked an old lamp and a genie came out and gave you one wish in what to do in this moment.
Yeah.
In terms of money, where do you think?
Because I give speeches sometimes to conservatives.
Yeah.
And they'll always say, well, I have money.
Where should I give it?
And I never want to say to me, because that's not what I'm trying to do.
Where would you tell them to put their money?
Yeah.
There's two problems.
One is that the conservative, okay, you walk into a liberal or Silicon Valley investor's office and you say, Hey, I want to build a movie studio or I want to make a movie or I want to do a piece of art or whatever, or I want to build an app or I want to build a company.
And they say, will it make a billion dollars?
Can it make a billion dollars?
And will it change the world?
Okay.
If you walk into a conservative family office, oil family in Dallas, Texas, into their office or a real estate family in New York, and you say, I want you to invest in those same things, they will ask you, when do I get my principal back?
And what is my rate of return?
And what is my rate of return?
Yeah.
There is a mindset issue on the right side of the investor class, which isn't thinking big enough.
And I understand everyone's got their history of oil reserves and real estate funds and REITs and all this kind of stuff.
And look, money in the movies, we can lose it all.
But the thing is, is that I haven't lost money on movies ever.
I've never done that.
What a track record.
And so I think that people have to, maybe I need a better publicist, but I think that I think that what we're building with Daily Wire is really important.
The second thing is, I would say that there has to be ecosystem and infrastructure.
So when I, I mean, let's use Frontier Crucible as a perfect example.
So I made the movie independently, right?
I didn't have distribution in advance.
And once I made the, once I, once I sort of historically accurately portrayed the savages and the natives and so on,
and certainly once I cast Army Hammer, I instantly destroyed every festival invitation and 99.9% of the distributors who would have touched the movie, right?
Had I had a series of a group of conservative-minded distributors, which is which is growing and changing.
And Daily Wire can't release everything.
They just can't.
And so there would have been a better, there would have been a more robust theatrical and this and that, whatever.
But that's okay.
I make the movies to make the movies, right?
Rick Rubin often says the audience comes last.
And the reason I love that quote is because that means that I will do everything in my power to love the movie.
I'll do everything in my power to make sure I care about the script, that I love the cast, that I love the final edit and things like that.
So, you know, I have to love the movie and then the audience will love the movie.
But it is exhausting having to have my movies be discovered like Picasso, you know, after death over and over and over and over again.
It's so exhausting.
It's tough.
But we're ascendant.
We're on the march.
But to answer your question specifically, it's education of the conservative investor and building out more and more distribution platforms for conservative movie makers and voices to because the left will drown us.
They will drown us.
They won't get back to you.
Oh, they're serious.
They are serious.
They won't decline your invitation to the festival.
They won't call you back.
Yeah, that's right.
You know, you mentioned F1, a picture I also liked.
And the key line in that is it's not about the money.
And it's true.
The arts are about the money.
Dallas Sonier.
How great an F1 when he praised twice?
Praise.
I know.
I know.
Unbelievable.
No, and he brings discipline and control and he tells the black kid where to get off and all this stuff.
All right.
Frontier Crucible is the film.
Go and get it.
And if you haven't seen Bone Tomahawk and Brawl and Soul Block 99, Dragged Across Concrete, they're all produced by Dallas Sonier.
Dallas, it's always good to see you and have a good time with the new one.
Yeah, thanks so much, man.
I mean, my work with the Daily Wire is the honor of a lifetime.
And I'm so excited to be with you guys and making all these great movies.
And let's keep it going.
Absolutely.
All right.
I'll see you soon.
All right.
Dallas Sonier making Frontier Crucible.
All of these films are, they are getting made.
It's hard work to get them made.
And you're swimming upstream all the time.
So when you can support them, Dallas likes to make violent films.
Some people don't like that.
I get it.
But when you can support these films, you should, because otherwise the culture will belong to the people who are holding it now.
And that's not what we want.
Also, you should come to the Andrew Clavin Show on Friday.